I want you to understand Chicago(aphyr.com)
aphyr.com
I want you to understand Chicago
https://aphyr.com/posts
33 comments
“ Unavailable Due to the UK Online Safety Act”
https://archive.ph/X33oQ
https://archive.ph/X33oQ
This story is unavailable due to the online safety act? On what grounds? I mean, we all knew it would turn into censorship, but that was fast.
Even weirder is that I’m currently in France, not the UK.
This is aphyr's standard policy. https://blog.woof.group/announcements/updates-on-the-osa summarises the reasoning, which basically boils down to "the legislation is broad enough in scope to cover most of what he wants to do online in theory, the guidance about what will happen in practice is nonexistent, the punishments if they choose to go after you are extremely severe, and the costs of complying with the regulation are very onerous, so it's not worth complying", which seems fair enough.
I assume this was meant to link directly to https://aphyr.com/posts/397-i-want-you-to-understand-chicago, which is currently the most recent item in the /posts category
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45859402
It got flagged, but this is happening and isn’t being talked about because it isn’t happening to people who have influence.
It got flagged, but this is happening and isn’t being talked about because it isn’t happening to people who have influence.
This submission is flagged too. Who is flagging these, and why?
It's very clearly against the guidelines, that's why
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
I think there comes a point where the situation is so serious normal guidelines, intended for normal times, no longer apply.
It's still off-topic here at hn. The community is very international, similar things happen in dozens of other countries too. The front page would be full of politics, if those kind of articles wouldn't be flagged.
There are a lot of other platforms, that are open for any topic, including politics. Reddit is probably the most similar one to hn.
There are a lot of other platforms, that are open for any topic, including politics. Reddit is probably the most similar one to hn.
USA is not like other countries.
It is the most powerful country in the world, the strongest military power in the world by far, a global nuclear power, and the basis of European military security and peace - at a time of Russian military expansionism.
This is not the same as Haiti having problems.
It is the most powerful country in the world, the strongest military power in the world by far, a global nuclear power, and the basis of European military security and peace - at a time of Russian military expansionism.
This is not the same as Haiti having problems.
There’s plenty of other forums and social media where such discussions happen. Hacker News does not want to be that place
Can you explain? I haven’t been watching TV news, but I haven’t seen this being broadly covered elsewhere.
You’re saying this is trivial and uninteresting? Or just everything relating to the US government is “politics” and we can’t talk about it? Because I think the guideline is meant to be about the former.
You’re saying this is trivial and uninteresting? Or just everything relating to the US government is “politics” and we can’t talk about it? Because I think the guideline is meant to be about the former.
[deleted]
I would certainly call secret police running rampant in a US city an 'interesting new phenomenon'.
This was flagged in the last minute or two, I refreshed the page and it changed to flagged. Ridiculous.
I don't think it is ridiculous to flag topics like this.
The problem is that topics like this are incredibly hard to keep civil, and the "HN factor" ("prominent" people involved chiming in) is not really there, either. It also frequently ends up in the exact same repeated arguments (at best).
Personally, I'm not flagging posts like this and I'm always very happy when the tone stays civil and the discussion interesting, but I can see why people would.
The problem is that topics like this are incredibly hard to keep civil, and the "HN factor" ("prominent" people involved chiming in) is not really there, either. It also frequently ends up in the exact same repeated arguments (at best).
Personally, I'm not flagging posts like this and I'm always very happy when the tone stays civil and the discussion interesting, but I can see why people would.
HN merely tries to keep up the appearance of being a place of civil debate and discussion. The bias comes out when the subject matter becomes in any way controversial.
You can say some pretty horrendous things on here as long as you couch them in mealy-mouthed modest-proposal language, while there's almost no recourse for having a good faith rebuttable flagged or down-voted.
In theory, the site moderators are supposed to be a check valve on this kind of abuse, but it's quite sobering to look at the age of some of the accounts who behave badly on HN and yet have somehow passed notice.
I can only assume that the moderators are okay with the company they allow on the site, and I think it's worth taking a look around and asking yourself "Is this place _really_ worth contributing to?"
You can say some pretty horrendous things on here as long as you couch them in mealy-mouthed modest-proposal language, while there's almost no recourse for having a good faith rebuttable flagged or down-voted.
In theory, the site moderators are supposed to be a check valve on this kind of abuse, but it's quite sobering to look at the age of some of the accounts who behave badly on HN and yet have somehow passed notice.
I can only assume that the moderators are okay with the company they allow on the site, and I think it's worth taking a look around and asking yourself "Is this place _really_ worth contributing to?"
> The bias comes out when the subject matter becomes in any way controversial.
I do not agree on that. I think if you flip the perspective in topics like this to the other political side ("Chicago is finally doing something against illegal foreigners in the city") it would not be any less likely to get flagged.
If I had to give a "best gess" for the aggregate political bias of HN, it would still be democrat/liberal/left, albeit less so than say, Reddit.
> You can say some pretty horrendous things on here
"Couching statements in soft language" is a significant part of keeping a polarizing discussion civil in my view, so that makes sense to me. What are those "horrendous things", and what would you like the moderators to do?
I do not agree on that. I think if you flip the perspective in topics like this to the other political side ("Chicago is finally doing something against illegal foreigners in the city") it would not be any less likely to get flagged.
If I had to give a "best gess" for the aggregate political bias of HN, it would still be democrat/liberal/left, albeit less so than say, Reddit.
> You can say some pretty horrendous things on here
"Couching statements in soft language" is a significant part of keeping a polarizing discussion civil in my view, so that makes sense to me. What are those "horrendous things", and what would you like the moderators to do?
It's so interesting that you automatically became defensive about left vs right wing bias of this site.
The fact of the matter is that depending on the thread, it can swing in either direction. And that's the problem - you end up with unaccountable moderation via populism, which is the worst kind of moderation.
Hacker News is not a functional social space. It can't be, by design, because it has an easily-gamed and incredibly punishing form of user moderation. The incentives for abuse are abundant, and the potential downsides are negligible because the moderators who are supposed to be a check on these abuses are demonstrably hands-off.
> "Couching statements in soft language" is a significant part of keeping a polarizing discussion civil in my view, so that makes sense to me.
A Modest Proposal isn't civil - it's satire. It describes in flowery language how the poor could sell their children to the rich for use as food. The dehumanization is supposed to horrify and anger you, and the satire is contained in the limitations of pretenses of civility.
The fact of the matter is that depending on the thread, it can swing in either direction. And that's the problem - you end up with unaccountable moderation via populism, which is the worst kind of moderation.
Hacker News is not a functional social space. It can't be, by design, because it has an easily-gamed and incredibly punishing form of user moderation. The incentives for abuse are abundant, and the potential downsides are negligible because the moderators who are supposed to be a check on these abuses are demonstrably hands-off.
> "Couching statements in soft language" is a significant part of keeping a polarizing discussion civil in my view, so that makes sense to me.
A Modest Proposal isn't civil - it's satire. It describes in flowery language how the poor could sell their children to the rich for use as food. The dehumanization is supposed to horrify and anger you, and the satire is contained in the limitations of pretenses of civility.
So your position is that opinions (from all parts of the political spectrum, depending on topic) get routinely supressed via the flagging system, making HN a "non-functional social space"?
I disagree with that strongly as well. Looking at the main thread on this post, every single flagged comment looks perfectly justified to me, as an example.
If such suppression is common, it should be easy to point out comments that are unjustifiably flagged?
I also disagree that the system is "incredibly punishing"-- at worst, some other people won't be able to see your comment or post, you don't even get banned or anything.
I'm quite happy with how moderation is being done on this forum compared to basically anywhere else.
I disagree with that strongly as well. Looking at the main thread on this post, every single flagged comment looks perfectly justified to me, as an example.
If such suppression is common, it should be easy to point out comments that are unjustifiably flagged?
I also disagree that the system is "incredibly punishing"-- at worst, some other people won't be able to see your comment or post, you don't even get banned or anything.
I'm quite happy with how moderation is being done on this forum compared to basically anywhere else.
HN functions to announce libraries, programming languages, projects, stuff like that. It functions as a thing to find out what's happening in programming and in the tech industry; that's why I continue to check it as I have done for 15 years running now. So it's not useless space; I still get a lot out of visiting HN, but that's in the form of announcements, not in the form of socialization. As a place of discussion I would agree with LexiMax that HN isn't a functioning social space.
Thank you for picking up on that nuance. I actually think that gamified voting systems are pretty decent at content aggregation. I regularly poach stories from HN for discussion in other, less dysfunctional communities.
HN still has a problem with mob censorship of stories, but because there are generally far fewer story submissions than comments, plus the fact that https://news.ycombinator.com/active exists which surfaces flagged stories for users who aren't logged in, this mob censorship tends to be much less effective. It forces the censors to put in the extra leg-work of going into the comments section instead.
HN still has a problem with mob censorship of stories, but because there are generally far fewer story submissions than comments, plus the fact that https://news.ycombinator.com/active exists which surfaces flagged stories for users who aren't logged in, this mob censorship tends to be much less effective. It forces the censors to put in the extra leg-work of going into the comments section instead.
> So your position is that opinions (from all parts of the political spectrum, depending on topic) get routinely supressed via the flagging system, making HN a "non-functional social space"?
Pretty much. Hacker News is half sockpuppets/throwaways, and half internet handles who smile in your face while holding a knife behind their back, ready to stab you in the darkness.
That's not an environment suitable for conducive connections with other human beings, though it's a mighty fine way to drive engagement by turning any slightly controversial thread into a voting/flagging war zone.
You want my advice, find communities with real people in them, places where people are more than an internet handle. Find communities with accountable moderation. Get to know people, learn about their life outside of whatever the topic of the day is. Heck, even meet them IRL. Touch grass.
Pretty much. Hacker News is half sockpuppets/throwaways, and half internet handles who smile in your face while holding a knife behind their back, ready to stab you in the darkness.
That's not an environment suitable for conducive connections with other human beings, though it's a mighty fine way to drive engagement by turning any slightly controversial thread into a voting/flagging war zone.
You want my advice, find communities with real people in them, places where people are more than an internet handle. Find communities with accountable moderation. Get to know people, learn about their life outside of whatever the topic of the day is. Heck, even meet them IRL. Touch grass.
I always read it as not saying these are the limitations of civility, but that they are the purpose of civility; that civility exists specifically and exclusively as a tool to uphold existing systems of power. Anything that upholds the current power structures is definitionally civil; anything that challenges the existing structures of power is definitionally barbaric. Through that viewpoint, this very comment is polite, but not civil.
indeed, this is a space that "prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice"
[deleted]
I am concerned flag is being abused by State run actors.
That seems less likely than insufferably pedantic nerds screaming “off topic!!!! off topic!!!” whenever they see anything that makes them even slightly uncomfortable.
I Want You to Understand Chicago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45859402