Apple's Problem with Bodies(drobinin.com)
drobinin.com
Apple's Problem with Bodies
https://drobinin.com/posts/apples-problem-with-bodies/
84 comments
Very strange article. The author is very upset that an "intimacy tracker" might receive an 18+ rating on the app store. I mean yes, younger folks do it, but the vast majority of potential customers are 18+. Why is this an problem?
Hi, OP here. Not sure what else to add beyond the first paragraph of the article:
> The rating itself is fine: the target audience is well past that age anyway. What baffles me is the logic.
I don't mind the 18+ label, even though it's up to the users what they use the app for, whether it's tracking sex, a partner's health, or personal wellbeing.
But I do find the history of age ratings and categories in the App Store and the limits they have to be quite hilarious, and figured I might as well write them down.
> The rating itself is fine: the target audience is well past that age anyway. What baffles me is the logic.
I don't mind the 18+ label, even though it's up to the users what they use the app for, whether it's tracking sex, a partner's health, or personal wellbeing.
But I do find the history of age ratings and categories in the App Store and the limits they have to be quite hilarious, and figured I might as well write them down.
Hi OP! I’ll share what I mentioned below in hopes of a response from you directly, because I’m genuinely curious to hear what you think:
Seems like people should be of whatever age we consider mature before they start capturing intimate data about themselves on random platforms. If we don’t think you’re able to understand the risks of pursuing your reproductive impulses, do we think you can measure the risks of sharing data about those impulses on a platform you don’t control?
Local data or not, if I were the steward of a marketplace I’d use that position to create this kind of teaching moment for pre-developed consumers. If young people had been warned since the mid 2000s of how much of their intimacy they were handing over to Meta, ByteDance, etc. before they started, the world would certainly be better off.
Seems like people should be of whatever age we consider mature before they start capturing intimate data about themselves on random platforms. If we don’t think you’re able to understand the risks of pursuing your reproductive impulses, do we think you can measure the risks of sharing data about those impulses on a platform you don’t control?
Local data or not, if I were the steward of a marketplace I’d use that position to create this kind of teaching moment for pre-developed consumers. If young people had been warned since the mid 2000s of how much of their intimacy they were handing over to Meta, ByteDance, etc. before they started, the world would certainly be better off.
Hey! I don’t disagree that people of any age should think twice before putting personal data (intimate or not) into any platform.
My point wasn’t about lowering the age rating. The issue is that Apple doesn’t have a real category for this kind of wellbeing at all. The age gate itself is sensible, but what’s funny is why it exists. It’s not "because we carefully considered how to protect teens’ data", it’s "because in 2009 the Store was drowning in farting apps, and we’ve been patching around that ever since."
My point wasn’t about lowering the age rating. The issue is that Apple doesn’t have a real category for this kind of wellbeing at all. The age gate itself is sensible, but what’s funny is why it exists. It’s not "because we carefully considered how to protect teens’ data", it’s "because in 2009 the Store was drowning in farting apps, and we’ve been patching around that ever since."
So, what is your own company's approach to restricting underage use?
because your blog post is, ahem rather less than persuasive
because your blog post is, ahem rather less than persuasive
Urm, did you read a different article then the one linked?
Because there's isn't really an argument innit - at least none that I took notice of. Isn't it just exploring the reasons why it is like it is today? They even made it abundantly clear in the beginning (and in the comments here) that the rating is fine for the app
And for what conceivable reason would this need to have sure underage people aren't using it?
A period tracker has relevance in the context of a sexual relationship, but there is really nothing about it that needs to be censored from underage people. It is not explicit content. It's a specialized journal, that's it
Because there's isn't really an argument innit - at least none that I took notice of. Isn't it just exploring the reasons why it is like it is today? They even made it abundantly clear in the beginning (and in the comments here) that the rating is fine for the app
And for what conceivable reason would this need to have sure underage people aren't using it?
A period tracker has relevance in the context of a sexual relationship, but there is really nothing about it that needs to be censored from underage people. It is not explicit content. It's a specialized journal, that's it
> Hi, OP here. Not sure what else to add beyond the first paragraph of the article:
I would imagine that the confusion arose because they read past that sentence. You wrote that you don’t mind that the app you specifically made for adults to use got the rating that it did and then sort of talk about how you don’t find the rating system to be rational.
I couldn’t tell if the subject of this article is “I think my intimacy tracking app shouldn’t have an adult rating because a user could use it for general wellbeing” or “I don’t like Fortnite”
I would imagine that the confusion arose because they read past that sentence. You wrote that you don’t mind that the app you specifically made for adults to use got the rating that it did and then sort of talk about how you don’t find the rating system to be rational.
I couldn’t tell if the subject of this article is “I think my intimacy tracking app shouldn’t have an adult rating because a user could use it for general wellbeing” or “I don’t like Fortnite”
That’s fair feedback, thank you. The point I was trying to make wasn’t "my app deserves a lower rating", it was "I built something for adults and realised there isn’t actually a correct category for it at all."
Once I noticed that gap, I went digging into the history to understand why the App Store age ratings and categories are the way they are, hence this archeological detour of a post.
Once I noticed that gap, I went digging into the history to understand why the App Store age ratings and categories are the way they are, hence this archeological detour of a post.
Maybe I don't read good but I'm a bit confused by the article - it feels like it's avoiding describing what the Silk app actually is for. Is it a sex tracker? or for relationship emotions? or for both plus anything else you want? Or something else?
Yeah, the author really tries everything to avoid calling it a sex tracker but the app store listing right now literally says "Sex, Partner Cycles, and Health"
I'm not sure what else they expected? 16+ seems appropriate to me. I can buy the argument for a need of additional categories, though.
I'm not sure what else they expected? 16+ seems appropriate to me. I can buy the argument for a need of additional categories, though.
I can see their point if it genuinely is just a tracker/journal. It’s effectively just words. Should books that describe sex also be age restricted?
As they raised, games with gacha mechanics and violence receive a lower rating.
I feel the complaint is less about the app receiving that rating and more the flawed logic around how they are categorized given it’s effectively a health and wellness tracker.
As they raised, games with gacha mechanics and violence receive a lower rating.
I feel the complaint is less about the app receiving that rating and more the flawed logic around how they are categorized given it’s effectively a health and wellness tracker.
Books that describe sex are somewhat age restricted. Something like Looking for Alaska is rated 16+ by Common Sense Media and not in elementary or middle school libraries.
“Partner Cycles” particularly describes a domestic surveillance situation that caters to an audience I’m not looking to spend time with
It is an explicit sex tracker that does not restrict usage by children
You can imagine why Apple takes a dim view
You can imagine why Apple takes a dim view
Are you saying it is "explicit" in that it is explicitly stating itself as such or that it contains explicit content? Because the former is honest and the latter seems to be untrue. Also you are replying to every comment here calling the author of the article a "disgusting pervert" and accusing them of a lot of things and I'm not sure it's adding anything to the conversation. It's a harmless journalling app
Sure it's harmless, but I think the app has enough suggestive content to be "explicit." There is a section where you can track your toy performance with options including ropes and vibrators.
It is a tracker of sexual activity.
It has no other purpose.
It ain't livejournal, my man
It has no other purpose.
It ain't livejournal, my man
I don't know what this comment means. I know this. Are you ok?
I think you’re missing the point of the post. It’s not about that specific app. It’s how Apple approaches such topics without context and with extreme prudishness.
This may be a bad global political climate for the "Big tech is bad because they restrict my sex app to users 18 and older" take.
I didn't take that message away from the blog at all. They seem perfectly content to be an 18+ app but are musing on the fact that, functionality wise, it doesn't actually have any sexual content. Just the vague suggestion that you might choose to log that information in there.
An IRL analogy is probably stores that are happy to let children shop in the vicinity of sexually suggestive items such as condoms, lube, and intimate apparel—you can get these at grocery stores even.
An IRL analogy is probably stores that are happy to let children shop in the vicinity of sexually suggestive items such as condoms, lube, and intimate apparel—you can get these at grocery stores even.
In all honesty, I think the front of a condom box which says "for contraception plus STI protection" is less sexually suggestive than an app that has a "Spice Library" where the user can tag activities with tags such as "Anal," "Oral," or "Intercourse."
How about a different angle then since you seem to be of the opinion that words related to sex can't be in the vicinity of children. Book stores. There aren't age ratings for books and a 8 year old is not only free to wander around by themselves near all the smut—from missionary to rape to drugged group sex with hockey boy dragon princes—but they would be allowed to buy them too. The only 'protection' from this happening is the fact that kids aren't actually interested in this kind of stuff.
So it gets to the heart of what these age ratings are really for and what kind of things do we actually not want kids around. And it seems like the line is drawn at sexually explicit imagery. And so app stores in a way are kind of unique in that they apply age restrictions much more liberally than the wider world around them.
So it gets to the heart of what these age ratings are really for and what kind of things do we actually not want kids around. And it seems like the line is drawn at sexually explicit imagery. And so app stores in a way are kind of unique in that they apply age restrictions much more liberally than the wider world around them.
Seems like people should be of whatever age we consider mature before they start capturing intimate data about themselves on random platforms. If we don’t think you’re able to understand the risks of pursuing your reproductive impulses, do we think you can measure the risks of sharing data about those impulses on a platform you don’t control?
Local data or not, if I were the steward of a marketplace I’d use that position to create this kind of teaching moment for pre-developed consumers. If young people had been warned since the mid 2000s of how much of their intimacy they were handing over to Meta, ByteDance, etc. before they started, the world would certainly be better off.
Local data or not, if I were the steward of a marketplace I’d use that position to create this kind of teaching moment for pre-developed consumers. If young people had been warned since the mid 2000s of how much of their intimacy they were handing over to Meta, ByteDance, etc. before they started, the world would certainly be better off.
> Seems like people should be of whatever age we consider mature before they start capturing intimate data about themselves on random platforms
How about we just don't do that capture at all?
How about we just don't do that capture at all?
Agreed. But giving adults free will is a principle of the market, so if attempting to prevent the most vulnerable consumers is the best we can get from a compromise, I’m for it
It is, quite literally, a diary for your sexual activity
Condoms, lubes, and intimate apparel are not threats to children. If you found children buying condoms, lubes, or intimate apparel at unusually high rates, that would be very alarming. But, normally, they are purchasing these products for very lazy adults.
There is 0 use case for a person under the age of majority to use this application. It is only usable by a person being abused.
Precisely 0 adults have charged children with the mission of f... blogging sexual activity.
Condoms, lubes, and intimate apparel are not threats to children. If you found children buying condoms, lubes, or intimate apparel at unusually high rates, that would be very alarming. But, normally, they are purchasing these products for very lazy adults.
There is 0 use case for a person under the age of majority to use this application. It is only usable by a person being abused.
Precisely 0 adults have charged children with the mission of f... blogging sexual activity.
> If you found children buying condoms, lubes, or intimate apparel at unusually high rates, that would be very alarming. But, normally, they are purchasing these products for very lazy adults.
“Children buying condoms or lube at unusually high rates” is a funny phrase because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a child buy either of those things. What is the threshold between usual and unusual for these purchases in hard terms?
“Children buying condoms or lube at unusually high rates” is a funny phrase because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a child buy either of those things. What is the threshold between usual and unusual for these purchases in hard terms?
You've never seen a kid buy condoms because mom and dad are lazy?
I aspire to your lifestyle ;)
kids buy condoms for the same reasons kids used to buy cigarettes or beer. It would be super weird to see the same neighborhood kid buy condoms every week, but it's not particularly alarming on a one-time basis.
Maybe I am just very old, and I should be alarmed by a one-time purchase. I am relating the basic guidelines from my own youth.
It is plainly a bad idea by any standard to provide an application for teenagers to keep diaries of their sexual abuse.
I aspire to your lifestyle ;)
kids buy condoms for the same reasons kids used to buy cigarettes or beer. It would be super weird to see the same neighborhood kid buy condoms every week, but it's not particularly alarming on a one-time basis.
Maybe I am just very old, and I should be alarmed by a one-time purchase. I am relating the basic guidelines from my own youth.
It is plainly a bad idea by any standard to provide an application for teenagers to keep diaries of their sexual abuse.
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> You've never seen a kid buy condoms because mom and dad are lazy?
Not that I can think of, and I’ve worked retail. I’m assuming that ‘lazy parents’ have been buying condoms and lube online for a long time now given the selection and price points available. Like you can get a hundred pack for ~$20 which is way cheaper than what you’d get at a gas station.
Not that I can think of, and I’ve worked retail. I’m assuming that ‘lazy parents’ have been buying condoms and lube online for a long time now given the selection and price points available. Like you can get a hundred pack for ~$20 which is way cheaper than what you’d get at a gas station.
Gonna file this away under the "I am very old" category
Revised opinion: Maybe it should be EXTREMELY ALARMING to see a neighborhood kid make a one-time purchase of condoms or lube
edit: i have worked retail but it was 30 years ago
Revised opinion: Maybe it should be EXTREMELY ALARMING to see a neighborhood kid make a one-time purchase of condoms or lube
edit: i have worked retail but it was 30 years ago
Wait until you see how many condoms you can buy off Amazon with a $20 Visa card. It even ships in an unmarked cardboard box, the West will fall any minute now.
Should pen and paper be restricted to 18+?
Pen and paper are not restricted by Apple's "App Store."
the epitome of the slippery slope fallacy.
Obviously not, pen and paper is the correct platform for a young person to document this type of data.
Not sarcasm, kids should truly just write this shit down instead of using a weird app that’s not accountable to them in any way,
Not sarcasm, kids should truly just write this shit down instead of using a weird app that’s not accountable to them in any way,
Your daughter's teacher could write her a handwritten note to stay after class. Won't anybody think of the children?
/s in case.
/s in case.
So confusing to read. The author goes extremely deep into details and definitions for every side topic, yet stays vague and euphemistic about the main subject: the app. This is a web article, not something that needs to pass Apple’s review team.
I kept reading hoping to eventually learn whats the app actually does. But it’s one euphemism after the other, plus the occasional wink to “read between the lines”.
How can the author complain about Apple binning this app away in a weird niche if he as its maker doesn’t have the guts to plainly say what the app actually, really does?
How can the author complain about Apple binning this app away in a weird niche if he as its maker doesn’t have the guts to plainly say what the app actually, really does?
>If you were around for the early App Store, you’ll remember its optimism: accelerometer-driven beer glasses, wobbling jelly icons, flashlight apps that set brightness to 100% because no one had ever considered the idea before. The ecosystem assumed “content” meant pictures, sound, or the occasional cow-milking simulator–not a user quietly describing part of their life to themselves.
I miss when tech was actually fun.
I miss when tech was actually fun.
Damn. What’s with all the personal attacks against the author in this comments section?
It’s such a well written (and factually correct) post, I don’t get the hate at all.
American culture still holds puritanical views of sex, and this article crosses the taboo threshold that 15 year olds are having sex.
>And yet, from the App Store’s point of view, you can build a game with guns and cartoon violence and happily ship it to kids, while tracking your own body needs a 16+ “mature themes” label.
This really isn't an Apple problem, but an American culture problem. This is such a common trope in many forms of media:
* You can sell games with gratuitous amount of gore, but implied clothed intercourse gets you pulled from stores.
* You can get away with a lot of violence and possible sneak a PG-13 rating, but a single boob gets you rated R.
This really isn't an Apple problem, but an American culture problem. This is such a common trope in many forms of media:
* You can sell games with gratuitous amount of gore, but implied clothed intercourse gets you pulled from stores.
* You can get away with a lot of violence and possible sneak a PG-13 rating, but a single boob gets you rated R.
Well, no, because Apple categorizes all of these things separately. The world is not subject to MPAA notions about "Sex" or "Violence" -- rather, Apple splits those up into "does this app have any sex" or "does this app have any violence"
The author has a problem because what he is selling is an app to track sexual activity in explicit detail, which is a huge privacy invasion, and Apple's normal screens are rather good at noticing that
The author of this post is trying to sell an app that is not explicitly prohibited by Apple guidelines, but it is offensive to pretty much anyone who looks at it
The author has a problem because what he is selling is an app to track sexual activity in explicit detail, which is a huge privacy invasion, and Apple's normal screens are rather good at noticing that
The author of this post is trying to sell an app that is not explicitly prohibited by Apple guidelines, but it is offensive to pretty much anyone who looks at it
> which is a huge privacy invasion, and Apple's normal screens are rather good at noticing that
Do you have any better evidence? Apple's App Store screens are notoriously useless; famously, Lastpass had to tell people to stop downloading their app from the App Store after Apple's "normal screen" replaced their app with a trojan horse: https://blog.lastpass.com/posts/warning-fraudulent-app-imper...
Do you have any better evidence? Apple's App Store screens are notoriously useless; famously, Lastpass had to tell people to stop downloading their app from the App Store after Apple's "normal screen" replaced their app with a trojan horse: https://blog.lastpass.com/posts/warning-fraudulent-app-imper...
categorization difficulties aside... why does an app like this need to exist at all?
it seems like you can just use existing utilities. write your journal in notes. put stuff on a calendar if you want to track dates. if you're into making pie charts, make a spreadsheet.
it seems like you can just use existing utilities. write your journal in notes. put stuff on a calendar if you want to track dates. if you're into making pie charts, make a spreadsheet.
Why do we need any apps beyond excel and word?
I organize my sex life with emacs org(asm)-mode
I tried emacs but couldn’t get my head around it - right back to vi(brator) for me
Is "asim" short for "a simulation"?
the punchline is "emacs orgasm mode"
Yes. My punchline is "what's the i doing there?"
The jokes on me and my bad spelling. Sorry I spoiled the delivery
I would have thought this app was targeted at people with unconventional lifestyles
Maybe people need a dedicated, mobile-ready spreadsheet to track sexual partners!
but this particular blog post makes me think they need a mobile spreadsheet to track their juvenile victims
Maybe people need a dedicated, mobile-ready spreadsheet to track sexual partners!
but this particular blog post makes me think they need a mobile spreadsheet to track their juvenile victims
Lego gives their plant and flower kits an 18+ rating. Which is kinda silly, but I think mostly so people don’t unknowingly buy them as gifts for a kid who’d rather have a space ship or Harry Potter set.
I quite enjoyed the writing style (despite a little wrinkle around context/contextual), but I am a bit disappointed that the article was so light on details.
it is light on details because the author wishes to invade your privacy in exchange for catering to your perversions
If you don’t want to be classified as a sex app, don’t write a sex app.
I’m very glad children won’t get their sexual activities tracked by apps tyvm
I’m very glad children won’t get their sexual activities tracked by apps tyvm
> Silk–the app I’m talking about, almost reluctantly–is a wellbeing journal in the most boring sense possible.
Brother, the App Store listing is literally “Silk — Intimacy and Health Log.” Followed by the screenshots titled “Pleasure Patterns,” “Love Without Limits,” and “Spice Library.”
That is not — as you say — “a wellbeing journal in the most boring possible sense.”
Brother, the App Store listing is literally “Silk — Intimacy and Health Log.” Followed by the screenshots titled “Pleasure Patterns,” “Love Without Limits,” and “Spice Library.”
That is not — as you say — “a wellbeing journal in the most boring possible sense.”
Did anyone actually read the article?
The problem is clearly spelled out. Apples App Store policies make it incredibly hard to create apps that fall into the grey zone.
An intimacy/sex journaling app shouldn’t be something that’s near to impossible to find on the App Store if the person searching for it is a grown adult.
The problem is clearly spelled out. Apples App Store policies make it incredibly hard to create apps that fall into the grey zone.
An intimacy/sex journaling app shouldn’t be something that’s near to impossible to find on the App Store if the person searching for it is a grown adult.
When you live under Apple's roof, you have to play their rules. But also- if you are tracking your partner's intimacy through an app, I think you might be doing it wrong.
How is he so confused? The app says, right in the subheading, that it’s a tracker for sex. Yeah, Apple doesn’t want to distribute an app for 13-year-olds to track if they fucked that week.
And the whole “but guns are ok??” thing is so tired. Yeah, we get it, Americans are prudes and in Europe nudity is no big deal and American cheese isn’t even cheese. We get it.
And the whole “but guns are ok??” thing is so tired. Yeah, we get it, Americans are prudes and in Europe nudity is no big deal and American cheese isn’t even cheese. We get it.
If little Jimmy is having anal sex after school, and then tracking it in an app, I think the app may be the least of your worries
This is why I chose Android over iOS a long long time ago. I bought the phone. It's my hardware. I should be able to run what I want on it.
Odd article. In a round about way, the strong prejudice against the 16+ articulate by the author seems to be an endorsement of sex for early and pre teen youth. The author can paint whatever slant they choose calling it a "journaling" app it's inextricably tied to sex, downplaying that is disingenuous
That’s exactly what the article didn’t say.
This is almost as bad as the argument the other day about why OpenAI needs to store ChatGPT conversations.
> The platform will figure it out eventually.
I think that’s very unlikely for his app.
I think that’s very unlikely for his app.
Loved the post. I think Apple has always been a little too prudish. This was fine when they were the smaller phone maker. Now today, both as a developer and a consumer you’re forced to consider Apple and their limits.
I remember when all dating apps had to move away from nudity without obscure hacks via the web. The entire conversation about sexual health and sexuality is now political and unfortunately for teens, their access to it is severely limited by old white prudish people who can’t even imagine a relationship with more than 2 people.
It’s never about protecting children though, that’s just a good buzzword they both Apple and politicians use that resonates with their audience without too much explanation. It gives a good feeling of effective policy even if it isn’t. It’s like “wokeness”, the “problem with immigration” and now … age verification.
I remember when all dating apps had to move away from nudity without obscure hacks via the web. The entire conversation about sexual health and sexuality is now political and unfortunately for teens, their access to it is severely limited by old white prudish people who can’t even imagine a relationship with more than 2 people.
It’s never about protecting children though, that’s just a good buzzword they both Apple and politicians use that resonates with their audience without too much explanation. It gives a good feeling of effective policy even if it isn’t. It’s like “wokeness”, the “problem with immigration” and now … age verification.
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