EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal(dw.com)
dw.com
EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-and-mercosur-countries-sign-landmark-free-trade-deal/a-75545794
183 comments
It replaces the US in the most beneficial ways for Europe, I would say. Mercosur is mostly commodities and no manufactured products, think iron, food (and rare earth). That helps tremendously with the idea of building or improving European own industry. There's a lot of incentives to mercosur to import european machinery and start it's own industrial sector.
All in all, mercosur already has strong ties with western europe (Portugal, Spain, Germany, Italy), both historic-cultural and economic, I see this as a huge win
All in all, mercosur already has strong ties with western europe (Portugal, Spain, Germany, Italy), both historic-cultural and economic, I see this as a huge win
I am from a country with a not so huge agricultural sector (Slovakia) and think that anything that brings food prices down while not hugely affecting quality will be good. Food in the EU is overpriced relative to the rest of the world. There are reasons for that I can understand but still.
What do you mean by "not so huge agricultural sector (Slovakia)"? I thought Slovakia had a more agrarian economy compared to the more industrialised Czechia.
It's only about 2% of GDP, comparable to the Czechs. Fun fact - Slovakia is a global leader in car production per capita, making around 1 million cars last years with 5 million inhabitants.
A consistent argument against the deal was precisely that the Mercosur partners won’t be able to stick to the same quality standards that we impose on the Bloc, or they might but then their prices will have to go up to accommodate the added bureaucracy and expectations in terms of agricultural practices.
Another more cynical take is that were simply offloading to poorer countries the greenhouse gas emissions of our agriculture.
Another more cynical take is that were simply offloading to poorer countries the greenhouse gas emissions of our agriculture.
I think quality standards are a bit different from other trade barriers like tariffs and quotas. We in the EU are importing lots of foods from over the world and the quality standards are already in place and checked (or not, in any case we have to police this ourselves), so probably not much will change for e.g. Argentinian beef in that regard.
> but then their prices will have to go up
But again their prices would have to account for this whether they are trading inside the trade bloc or exporting to the EU.
> Another more cynical take is that were simply offloading to poorer countries the greenhouse gas emissions of our agriculture.
But we are doing this already. And if the issue becomes too big to ignore, we already have a solution, the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism, so let's apply that to agriculture too.
> but then their prices will have to go up
But again their prices would have to account for this whether they are trading inside the trade bloc or exporting to the EU.
> Another more cynical take is that were simply offloading to poorer countries the greenhouse gas emissions of our agriculture.
But we are doing this already. And if the issue becomes too big to ignore, we already have a solution, the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism, so let's apply that to agriculture too.
There’s been a recent scandal concerning the watering of tomatoes in Morocco. I’m sure we test food quality where we can, but it won’t be feasible to ensure all producers grow their food ‘properly’.
European farmers are held to a higher standard that can be controlled with random testing any time, can we do the same for external partners? Can we prevent them from selling sugar syrup as honey, as was controversially happening in the UK? Is the ‘organic’ label as strict for, say, Peru?
This isn’t rhetoric. Yes, we have solutions and can mitigate everything. The issue that many have is that the affordances of a free-trade deal disincentive the practices we demand of local farmers. A continent struggling with suicide and bankruptcy among farmers might want to rethink how it ensures its own food security in the coming decades of destabilised climate and growth seasons.
European farmers are held to a higher standard that can be controlled with random testing any time, can we do the same for external partners? Can we prevent them from selling sugar syrup as honey, as was controversially happening in the UK? Is the ‘organic’ label as strict for, say, Peru?
This isn’t rhetoric. Yes, we have solutions and can mitigate everything. The issue that many have is that the affordances of a free-trade deal disincentive the practices we demand of local farmers. A continent struggling with suicide and bankruptcy among farmers might want to rethink how it ensures its own food security in the coming decades of destabilised climate and growth seasons.
Switzerland is part of it too but with a separate deal signed last year but still has to be approved in parliament.
Switzerland also has a free-trade agreement with china that has been very lucrative. No other European country has this.
Switzerland also has a free-trade agreement with china that has been very lucrative. No other European country has this.
>Switzerland also has a free-trade agreement with china
And India ;)
https://www.bag.admin.ch/en/newnsb/O8hG66Fgv1j36OLRRz0Ud
And India ;)
https://www.bag.admin.ch/en/newnsb/O8hG66Fgv1j36OLRRz0Ud
The PRC doesn't even have free trade within itself. Probably a one sided deal, but the apparatchiks have somewhere to stow their money now.
I'm sure there is a Wikipedia page on it. Fact remains that the PRC is a one party dictatorship which has pioneered a social credit system. Not exactly internal free trade and its international trade agreements will have strings attached.
NZ has had a free trade agreement with China since 2009. It has no strings attached in the sense of restrictions that we would not want.
There is some valid criticism raised by farmers in my country (Romania) related to use of pesticides and other substances that are forbidden in EU, but permitted in Mercosur and products can be imported even with the forbidden substances in it. That sounds pretty bad, consumer protection is the only part that I still like about modern EU.
But is that really true, i.e. were you able to find actual facts supporting this? I'm asking because in Germany there are similar talking points driven by the farmer's associations (actually just the big agro corps, actual small-scale farmers don't have much of a voice in these) and everytime I tried to dig into a particular topic, it didn't seem to be supported by actual facts.
What facts are you looking for, real products imported on this agreement and analyzed in a lab? Obviously not, the agreement was just signed. But, I read about examples of substances allowed in the Mercosur countries and forbidden in EU. https://www.collectifstoptafta.org/IMG/pdf/mercosur_et_pesti... , https://euobserver.com/climate/151818
Does the deal actually allow food to be imported into the EU if it does not comply with EU health and safety regulations?
It does not.
Who controls it though? A lot of non-compliant products are imported from China in plain sight, as there are 0 control and LATAM countries have no incentives in enforcing it.
There are already a lot of special cases like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilton_Quota
Local producers follow the rules, dot theit i and cross their t, because it's more profitable to sell the premium parts of the cow to Europe and the rest in the local market.
There are controls here and also when it arrives to Europe.
Local producers follow the rules, dot theit i and cross their t, because it's more profitable to sell the premium parts of the cow to Europe and the rest in the local market.
There are controls here and also when it arrives to Europe.
Most of the cheaper honey you can buy in the EU is imported from China, and is fake, made from glucose syrup. The EU has tried to "regulate", but chinese producers don't care, no one except consumer groups and beekeeper unions pay for tests.
Maybe in ten years, when most EU beekeepers will have thrown the towel and moved to other occupations, the EU will act and forbid imports. But until then, well eat overpriced glucose syrup.
If fraud as blatant and old is tolerated, what do you think happens with meat, where controls are much harder if not impossible when dealing with things such as animal wellness?
Maybe in ten years, when most EU beekeepers will have thrown the towel and moved to other occupations, the EU will act and forbid imports. But until then, well eat overpriced glucose syrup.
If fraud as blatant and old is tolerated, what do you think happens with meat, where controls are much harder if not impossible when dealing with things such as animal wellness?
Yep that is more and more the problem. Regulations are made "for show". Governments don't check them, don't enforce them (except extremely selectively), and companies are learning to just ignore them. But it's not just a problem for imports.
(note that the EU has already perfected this, as it is now basically standard for EU legislation to have rules about enforcement that always boil down to only allowing the EU commission to enforce legislation, or not enforce it. In other words: you, and even local governments, cannot use the courts to get compliance)
1) activists and lobbyists get what they want ... or they think so
2) governments get the votes they need without destroying the economy because political parties can lie about their "achievements"
3) companies (farms, what remains of industry) get what they want
Of course this will lead to a total disaster, sooner or later. Probably sooner. One where millions of lives will be very negatively affected.
Free trade is making this worse. Of course, China has always done this. In China, the law doesn't matter, only what the party says at the moment does. And even that is assuming there is zero truth to the constant claims that China encourages fake medicine production and even drug production for export.
In the US, this is now more and more the case as well. For example, xAI simply totally violated environmental laws (among others [1]) to get their datacenter operational and operating at all. Which, of course, really pushes their competition to do the same. The punishment? "Never do it again". Of course, it is essentially inconceivable that they're complying with the ruling (the datacenter is currently running and has not received extra grid power. In other words: the illegal generators are running right now despite the ruling, not only that but the second datacenter also has at least 45 illegal generators)
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/15/elon-musk...
(note that the EU has already perfected this, as it is now basically standard for EU legislation to have rules about enforcement that always boil down to only allowing the EU commission to enforce legislation, or not enforce it. In other words: you, and even local governments, cannot use the courts to get compliance)
1) activists and lobbyists get what they want ... or they think so
2) governments get the votes they need without destroying the economy because political parties can lie about their "achievements"
3) companies (farms, what remains of industry) get what they want
Of course this will lead to a total disaster, sooner or later. Probably sooner. One where millions of lives will be very negatively affected.
Free trade is making this worse. Of course, China has always done this. In China, the law doesn't matter, only what the party says at the moment does. And even that is assuming there is zero truth to the constant claims that China encourages fake medicine production and even drug production for export.
In the US, this is now more and more the case as well. For example, xAI simply totally violated environmental laws (among others [1]) to get their datacenter operational and operating at all. Which, of course, really pushes their competition to do the same. The punishment? "Never do it again". Of course, it is essentially inconceivable that they're complying with the ruling (the datacenter is currently running and has not received extra grid power. In other words: the illegal generators are running right now despite the ruling, not only that but the second datacenter also has at least 45 illegal generators)
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jan/15/elon-musk...
European consumer protection authorities control the quality and food is regularly tested, of course. European producers aren’t saints too.
Food safety is ensured by controlling at the production level, with physical inspections. Given the sheer amount of food traded and imported the lab measures are very unreliable and costly.
Private consumer protection groups very often find problematic products. Honey is a good example, massive fake honey from China has been being dumped in the EU for the last 20 years, authorities don't care at all and allow it to continue.
Private consumer protection groups very often find problematic products. Honey is a good example, massive fake honey from China has been being dumped in the EU for the last 20 years, authorities don't care at all and allow it to continue.
What do you mean “don’t care at all”? There’s literally a fresh update to EU honey regulation that just came into effect.
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/farming/animal-products/hon...
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/farming/animal-products/hon...
Yes, the EU complained and regulated it in 2021[1], 2023[2], and nothing has been solved[3] since we don't control the imports nor ban them when importers don't act to reduce fraud and there is no enforcement when fraud happens.
[1] https://www.politico.eu/article/china-honey-xi-jinping-bruss...
[2] https://ec.europa.eu/olaf-report/2023/investigative-activiti...
[3] https://eng.lsm.lv/article/culture/food-drink/03.02.2025-bee...
[1] https://www.politico.eu/article/china-honey-xi-jinping-bruss...
[2] https://ec.europa.eu/olaf-report/2023/investigative-activiti...
[3] https://eng.lsm.lv/article/culture/food-drink/03.02.2025-bee...
Another partner, but the same issue: https://www.nationalobserver.com/2025/12/03/news/france-cana...
From consumer perspective this agreement changes nothing, explicitly stating that. It does not allow lower quality of products imported from Mercosur. All EU standards for food safety remain applicable and EU may adopt stronger standards in the future.
Some stuff forbidden in EU is used in e.g. Brazil, but as long as residues are at safe level, it’s considered ok. European farmers are against this part, because their business model relying on only safe substances is threatened. However, it may be possible as well that EU regulatory pressure will push American farmers to adopt stricter standards for their exports.
Some stuff forbidden in EU is used in e.g. Brazil, but as long as residues are at safe level, it’s considered ok. European farmers are against this part, because their business model relying on only safe substances is threatened. However, it may be possible as well that EU regulatory pressure will push American farmers to adopt stricter standards for their exports.
No one controls for the food quality imported in the EU. If you read consumer protection specialized papers, they very often find problematic products. Massive amounts of fake honey from China is being sold in the internal market with absolutely no repercussions.
The only way to ensure food safety is to control the production sites, which Mercosur doesn't allow.
The only way to ensure food safety is to control the production sites, which Mercosur doesn't allow.
>If you read consumer protection specialized papers, they very often find problematic products.
If nobody controls it, where all those papers come from?
If nobody controls it, where all those papers come from?
Private consumer protection groups have no enforcement power and their action is a drop in the ocean. Honey is a good example, authorities don't control, NGOs and beekeeper unions provide tests and data, the EU gives 0 f*cks and allows the swindle to continue.
This is misrepresentation of facts.
Why is fake honey still so commonplace[1] in the EU if controls happen? Tests exists and are straightforward. The EU has been saying that they'll stop it[2], after a more than a decade of abuse, nothing happened because the fraud is so widespread but there are no systematic controls.
[1] https://eng.lsm.lv/article/culture/food-drink/03.02.2025-bee...
[2] https://ec.europa.eu/olaf-report/2023/investigative-activiti...
[1] https://eng.lsm.lv/article/culture/food-drink/03.02.2025-bee...
[2] https://ec.europa.eu/olaf-report/2023/investigative-activiti...
Safe level is a bad metric. Lately the safe level for alcohol consumption was set to zero, even if it was considered safe in the past to have some drinks.
This is why this FTA doesn’t restrict EU on making it more strict. If new health risks will be discovered, they will come up with new regulations and farmers in EU may have an advantage of being already compliant.
Is it valid? Are those actually farmers?
The criticism seems to come from the political side most likely to steal your wallet while talking to you, and from the nazi wannabes.
The criticism seems to come from the political side most likely to steal your wallet while talking to you, and from the nazi wannabes.
The main issue as I see it is that we need food security in the EU. Especially high quality nutrious dense food like beef.
And EU farmers are subject to a ridiculous number of regulations and costs. The thing is, these may very well be good for environmental reasons, but it doesn't work if we just start importing from countries that do the opposite.
And EU farmers are subject to a ridiculous number of regulations and costs. The thing is, these may very well be good for environmental reasons, but it doesn't work if we just start importing from countries that do the opposite.
Mercusor nations only get lower tariffs up to a certain amount. For meat that's roughly 1.5% of EU production. That is no threat to Europe's strategic capacity.
https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-cou...
https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-cou...
I'm currently in Brazil. Buenos Aries has NYC, Miami food prices. One of the things that strikes me the most is price of food here and Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay. By shipping the food to Europe and United States, it makes it extremely expensive here. After decades of authoritarian control, the food production here has been concentrated into a few extraordinary families.
The EU farmers are not the only people getting the short stick.
The EU farmers are not the only people getting the short stick.
> it makes it extremely expensive here
That is relative. It makes it expensive compared to our people's purchasing power. Most people here don't earn much.
In more absolute terms (costs, etc), food in Brazil is incredibly cheap. Also abundant and varied (we have all climates within our borders, can plant/grow anything) to levels that people in the US and EU cannot understand.
I can prepare $50 USD meals for $30 BRL (which is about $6 USD). Not only premium beef, but premium fish, fruit, chocolate, wine, cheese (that's why wine and cheese are protected in the deal).
People told me this, and I only really believed when I visited the US and saw their food offerings in the market. I was shocked, and thankful for living here.
That is relative. It makes it expensive compared to our people's purchasing power. Most people here don't earn much.
In more absolute terms (costs, etc), food in Brazil is incredibly cheap. Also abundant and varied (we have all climates within our borders, can plant/grow anything) to levels that people in the US and EU cannot understand.
I can prepare $50 USD meals for $30 BRL (which is about $6 USD). Not only premium beef, but premium fish, fruit, chocolate, wine, cheese (that's why wine and cheese are protected in the deal).
People told me this, and I only really believed when I visited the US and saw their food offerings in the market. I was shocked, and thankful for living here.
Do you mean the prices are as high as NYC relative to local income? Because if farmers can get NYC prices in their own country I don't see why they would ship their produce all the way to the EU, where they won't even be able to get that (NYC is more expensive than the large majority of Europe).
I mean a cheese burger costs $18 USD and I couldn't find cheaper without having to walk 3 miles in Buenos Aries.
Argentina is an outlier as their economy is in the dumps, for the rest of SA food is much cheaper than in Europe. But in general you are right that food prices in some countries in SA are artificially high because most of our food is exported, so the domestic market has to pay a premium. We also export the highest quality food. If we fed the domestic market first and exported the surplus food prices would be a fraction of what they are today.
[deleted]
I was in BA quite recently and didn't find it that expensive in restaurants, even in Recoleta. Inflation is so volatile there it can change by the week I guess. But if what you are saying is true about meat being so expensive, I think that just means that meat isn't going to be sold to Europe, because Europeans aren't going to pay that price and Argentinian meat producers aren't going to ship their produce to Europe and comply with all the red tape to get the same or lower prices. Granted, in some poorer areas where meat is currently quite cheap the effects of competition could be more acute.
[deleted]
I just took a look at a McDonald's three blocks away from my home.
A Big Mac with a big soda and big portion of fried potatoes cost AR$14,200 that is US$9.80 at the "blue" exchange rate.
For US$18 you can buy a huge and fancy burger.
A Big Mac with a big soda and big portion of fried potatoes cost AR$14,200 that is US$9.80 at the "blue" exchange rate.
For US$18 you can buy a huge and fancy burger.
I flew from Asia to Buenos Aries after on a whim deciding not to return home to the US. I ran out of USD a while ago. Everywhere in the world I can withdraw cash with a small fee and whatever the exchange rate is. In Argentina it was a $10 fee plus the government set exchange rate and max withdraw was 60,000 pesos. So I was paying $10 to get $60 worth of pesos.
Its true in the past you had to use black market. That's not a problem anymore. You just use your credit card and don't worry about exchange rate.
I didn't know that, but it's possible because we still have a lot of weird exchange rules.
You can probably have got better exchange rates in some shady corner, if you don't mind the risk of been scamed by a random guy instead of the bank/goverment.
You can probably have got better exchange rates in some shady corner, if you don't mind the risk of been scamed by a random guy instead of the bank/goverment.
your comment gives impression as if Buenos Aries were in Brazil, so not sure what to make of it...
[deleted]
> The thing is, these may very well be good for environmental reasons, but it doesn't work if we just start importing from countries that do the opposite.
Everything I have read suggests the EU has controls to "temporarily suspend tariff preferences on agricultural imports from Mercosur if these imports harm EU producers"
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-mercosur-agre...
and they intend to "uphold EU animal welfare rules" specifically so consumers aren't harmed either.
https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2025/09/04/eu-mercosur...
> The main issue as I see it...
Who are you? If you're an expert, can you share a couple links with some analysis of which part of this agreement will harm the environment, so I know exactly what you're talking about? And not in a vague hand-wavey way with all these weasel-words about "may very well", but an actual thing, because I live here and can vote, but I think this is a good deal, and am genuinely confused why anyone would think it isn't, so if I can get educated here, I don't want to pass up the chance!
Everything I have read suggests the EU has controls to "temporarily suspend tariff preferences on agricultural imports from Mercosur if these imports harm EU producers"
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-mercosur-agre...
and they intend to "uphold EU animal welfare rules" specifically so consumers aren't harmed either.
https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2025/09/04/eu-mercosur...
> The main issue as I see it...
Who are you? If you're an expert, can you share a couple links with some analysis of which part of this agreement will harm the environment, so I know exactly what you're talking about? And not in a vague hand-wavey way with all these weasel-words about "may very well", but an actual thing, because I live here and can vote, but I think this is a good deal, and am genuinely confused why anyone would think it isn't, so if I can get educated here, I don't want to pass up the chance!
Well, who are you? As a voter, I’m already disappointed in Belgium’s lack of a gold standard for the welfare of chicken-laying eggs and male chick grinding. So we’re stuck buying the more expensive organic eggs. Okay, so the partners promise to uphold animal welfare standards. How are we checking? How often?
Are their emissions lower than ours? Do they pollute their waterways? What do they feed their livestock? Was it grown using pesticides we’ve banned, but feed was conveniently laundered through a 3rd-party importer?
I think it’s good to strike deals with new partners, but Mercosur was consistently criticised for not addressing corruption, not helping the already suicidal EU farmers, etc. It went full steam ahead, without any regard for the voters and their opinions.
Source? Dunno, I went to the protests and maybe I’m very biased.
Are their emissions lower than ours? Do they pollute their waterways? What do they feed their livestock? Was it grown using pesticides we’ve banned, but feed was conveniently laundered through a 3rd-party importer?
I think it’s good to strike deals with new partners, but Mercosur was consistently criticised for not addressing corruption, not helping the already suicidal EU farmers, etc. It went full steam ahead, without any regard for the voters and their opinions.
Source? Dunno, I went to the protests and maybe I’m very biased.
If you want food security, beef is one of the worst options. It is extremely land-inefficient (not to mention very polluting as well).
Beef was literally never a staple food in the EU. There's only a few regions were there is enough pasture land for a local operation but even then it was always too expensive to be a staple. Pork has always been the staple meat and we grow enough of that.
What hurts EU farmers the most are the huge supermarket chains which control prices. The rules®ulations thing is an often cited meme but the price war is much more impactful.
In fact we could produce for example in Germany milk in a sustainable and very environmentally friendly way if it would just cost a couple cents more, like 10 cents or even less. But consumers will basically riot if you raise the prices there so the supermarket chains don’t do it and instead put more pressure on the farmers to produce cheaply.
If you read the MERCOSUR agreement then you’ll see there are a ton of protections included against the thing you are afraid of.
In fact we could produce for example in Germany milk in a sustainable and very environmentally friendly way if it would just cost a couple cents more, like 10 cents or even less. But consumers will basically riot if you raise the prices there so the supermarket chains don’t do it and instead put more pressure on the farmers to produce cheaply.
If you read the MERCOSUR agreement then you’ll see there are a ton of protections included against the thing you are afraid of.
Don’t you guys have farmer’s markets? I buy a lot of my stuff direct from the farmer.
We do have those markets but they are much more expensive (for exactly that reason that they aren’t subject to the price gauge as the supermarkets are).
They are essentially for some (rich) hippies/yuppies only.
I can’t speak for other EU countries but in Germany people will buy the cheapest food almost always. Quality or farmer welfare is a minor concern for the majority.
I can’t speak for other EU countries but in Germany people will buy the cheapest food almost always. Quality or farmer welfare is a minor concern for the majority.
Of course we do
But most people don't want to make the effort to go there instead of buying everything at the supermarket
Even though they still say that they want our farmers to have decent working conditions and incomes
But even the farmers will eat cheap imported lentils over local ones
But most people don't want to make the effort to go there instead of buying everything at the supermarket
Even though they still say that they want our farmers to have decent working conditions and incomes
But even the farmers will eat cheap imported lentils over local ones
Most of the sensitive food imports from Mercosur (including beef) are subject to quotas specifically to protect the domestic EU food production chain.
It's true that EU farmers are subject to a lot of burdens and costs, but I also think people are seriously underestimating just how effective a lot of the European agricultural sector is. In fact, this deal is probably going to result in a lot more export of high value, prestigious food items like cheeses and cured meats to South America, which could even have the surprising effect of increasing the amount of farm animals raised in Europe.
It's true that EU farmers are subject to a lot of burdens and costs, but I also think people are seriously underestimating just how effective a lot of the European agricultural sector is. In fact, this deal is probably going to result in a lot more export of high value, prestigious food items like cheeses and cured meats to South America, which could even have the surprising effect of increasing the amount of farm animals raised in Europe.
Mercosur imports are subject to the same food safety standards as non-imports: https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-cou...
Food security is the last concern for Europe. How do you get that idea?
> And EU farmers are subject to a ridiculous number of regulations and costs.
> Food security is the last concern for Europe. How do you get that idea?
Food security is the first concern for every society, because without food we will all die. The reason almost the whole EU budget (hyperbole, but indeed it is a lot of the EU budget) is spent on agricultural subsidies is precisely to protect our food security.
Food security is the first concern for every society, because without food we will all die. The reason almost the whole EU budget (hyperbole, but indeed it is a lot of the EU budget) is spent on agricultural subsidies is precisely to protect our food security.
Truism aside, Europe hasn't a lack of fertile grounds nor good climate.
Europe has a pressing need for minerals and energy.
Europe has a pressing need for minerals and energy.
> The reason almost the whole EU budget (hyperbole, but indeed
> it is a lot of the EU budget) is spent on agricultural
> subsidies is precisely to protect our food security.
> Food security is the first concern for every society, because without food we will all die.
It depends on what you mean by "first concern". Water security is the first concern by that reasoning; nuclear attack security too - without it, everyone dies.
But those aren't serious concerns in any practical sense: In most places in Europe there is plenty of water and food, and attention and resources are rightfully directed elsewhere.
It depends on what you mean by "first concern". Water security is the first concern by that reasoning; nuclear attack security too - without it, everyone dies.
But those aren't serious concerns in any practical sense: In most places in Europe there is plenty of water and food, and attention and resources are rightfully directed elsewhere.
>Food security is the last concern for Europe. How do you get that idea?
On the contrary, it is one of the main concerns of the EU. And has been since the beginning. The CAP still makes up 40% of the budget.
And frankly, for the first time I fully appreciate it. With the current state of the world it's nice that the EU isn't dependent on third parties for their food supply.
On the contrary, it is one of the main concerns of the EU. And has been since the beginning. The CAP still makes up 40% of the budget.
And frankly, for the first time I fully appreciate it. With the current state of the world it's nice that the EU isn't dependent on third parties for their food supply.
[deleted]
EU is pork land. US is the beef one
Removing tariffs on beef specifically is a serious mistake, there's no need to incentivise any more production of that.
Other agricultural imports, like soy and coffee beans, are a huge boon to the EU on the other hand. If this results in cheaper coffee, everyone in my country, for one, will be ecstatic.
Other agricultural imports, like soy and coffee beans, are a huge boon to the EU on the other hand. If this results in cheaper coffee, everyone in my country, for one, will be ecstatic.
While I agree that we ideally shouldn't be incentivizing more beef production, the reality is that making a trade agreement (at least the European way) involves a lot of give-and-take, compromises, and concessions.
Mercosur countries have a powerful beef industry which they're proud of, and their governments are interested in advancing that industry. Lowered beef tariffs were almost certainly one of their prerequisites to forming a deal.
That said, do note that the tariffs are only lowered up to a quota level of beef imports. Relative to the size of the EU's domestic beef industry, these imports are not that significant.
Mercosur countries have a powerful beef industry which they're proud of, and their governments are interested in advancing that industry. Lowered beef tariffs were almost certainly one of their prerequisites to forming a deal.
That said, do note that the tariffs are only lowered up to a quota level of beef imports. Relative to the size of the EU's domestic beef industry, these imports are not that significant.
We have to notice the blatant hypocrisy here: on the one hand we are told that the environment and net zero are top priorities, and on the other hand we are also told that it is great to have beef shipped to us from literally the other side of the world... (Tokyo is nearer to Brussels than Buenos Aires)
The process of shipping of beef from Buenos Aires to Brussels has a much smaller climate impact than the process of producing that beef in the first place. In particular, the methane burped up from cows has a gigantic impact on radiative forcing in the upper atmosphere. And again, the amount of beef being allowed to be shipped to Europe is quota'd to a quite amount relative to the domestic industry.
That's not to say that we shouldn't do anything about these emissions, but the solution is going to be to develop more climate friendly shipping techniques, not to eliminate global trade.
That's not to say that we shouldn't do anything about these emissions, but the solution is going to be to develop more climate friendly shipping techniques, not to eliminate global trade.
Beef from Argentina is basically as good as it gets in terms of animal welfare.
Most are raised under extensive systems (not confined feedlots). They live on large grasslands (hundreds of acres) where they roam freely and graze pastures.
That's completely unlike things like Chicken which live their whole life in over crowded poultry houses, never seeing the outdoors, or even daylight.
Most are raised under extensive systems (not confined feedlots). They live on large grasslands (hundreds of acres) where they roam freely and graze pastures.
That's completely unlike things like Chicken which live their whole life in over crowded poultry houses, never seeing the outdoors, or even daylight.
Animal welfare is not the issue here.
Pollution, land and wildlife destruction is the issue.
Beef is probably the worst use of land to produce food given how much input it requires and negative outputs it produces.
Pollution, land and wildlife destruction is the issue.
Beef is probably the worst use of land to produce food given how much input it requires and negative outputs it produces.
Soybeans have probably a worse impact on the environment than beef. Most of the deforestation in SA in the past couple of decades was for soybean farms.
Well, that's a very misleading statement. Most of those soybeans aren't being produced to be eaten by humans. Most soybeans are used for animal feed.
It's the meat industry that is primarily driving deforestation, both directly for pasture, and indirectly for animal feed.
It's the meat industry that is primarily driving deforestation, both directly for pasture, and indirectly for animal feed.
Not in South America. Cattle here eats grass. Soybean is exported mainly to China which uses it for other reasons, not feeding cattle.
Yes, as you can see, it’s not for cattle.
According to this source, 77% of soy production is used for animal feed. That only a small percentage of it goes to cattle is irrelevant in terms of the damage caused.
Which is my point from the beginning. Soybean production is worse than beef production for the environment when it comes to South America.
It depends on what you are talking about exactly.
Does soybean production as a whole, in SA, is worse than beef production as a whole in SA?
Maybe.
Does soybean production for direct human consumption is worse than beef production for direct human consumption?
Not. Even. Close.
https://www.wri.org/insights/truth-about-low-emissions-beef
Basically you're average meat-eater is indirectly eating more soy than someone having scrambled tofu everyday
Does soybean production as a whole, in SA, is worse than beef production as a whole in SA?
Maybe.
Does soybean production for direct human consumption is worse than beef production for direct human consumption?
Not. Even. Close.
https://www.wri.org/insights/truth-about-low-emissions-beef
Basically you're average meat-eater is indirectly eating more soy than someone having scrambled tofu everyday
What’s wrong with pasture raised beef like they raise in Argentina?
Methane emissions, I assume. (Solvable with 2% seaweed in the diet)
Also possibly rainforest destruction for crops, but I'm not as sure about that.
Also possibly rainforest destruction for crops, but I'm not as sure about that.
Rainforest in Argentina?
Argentina beef are raised in pasture. About as eco friendly as it gets. Converting pasture to row crops is far more devastating to the environment (topsoil loss, GHG emissions from loss of biomatter in topsoil, fossil fuel derived fertiliser and more.)
Argentina beef are raised in pasture. About as eco friendly as it gets. Converting pasture to row crops is far more devastating to the environment (topsoil loss, GHG emissions from loss of biomatter in topsoil, fossil fuel derived fertiliser and more.)
[deleted]
Absolutely nothing it is just European farmers crying. As if the EU doesn't already spend billions on farming subsidies.
Even if WW3 breaks out we can turn all of Europe into a vegetable garden in less than a year- the UK did this in 1940. Nobody is going to starve FFS.
Even if WW3 breaks out we can turn all of Europe into a vegetable garden in less than a year- the UK did this in 1940. Nobody is going to starve FFS.
That’s a pretty bold claim. I think people who want to eat need to be comfortable producing their own food.
Being utterly reliant on, say, the U.S. means ultimately the U.S. will tell you what to do.
Being utterly reliant on, say, the U.S. means ultimately the U.S. will tell you what to do.
One might think that the importance of self-reliance with respect to essential resources is something to be learned from the past years. So, I'm not sure it's such a great idea to harm our local food production and import via the Atlantic ocean instead.
I did not crunch any numbers but I do think self-reliance with a high standard of living that means wanting and having access to everything from produce to luxury goods at a reasonable price for the majority of people cannot be achieved so easily.
You of course say self reliance on essential resources and I still think for most countries that could be very expensive very fast. People are complaining about the high costs specifically of the essential products when their prices are raising. Without a serious rethinking of our society we cannot probably fix that. And nobody is willing now to vote and agree to suffer for a generation to fix this system.
You of course say self reliance on essential resources and I still think for most countries that could be very expensive very fast. People are complaining about the high costs specifically of the essential products when their prices are raising. Without a serious rethinking of our society we cannot probably fix that. And nobody is willing now to vote and agree to suffer for a generation to fix this system.
'Self-reliance' is an emotional appeal by nationalists to roll back free trade and other international cooperation.
International cooperation brings great wealth and security, and a diversification of resources. Should each EU country also go it alone? Internationalists have built the most free, prosperous, and secure world that has ever been seen. It's hard to see how the recent nationalist, anti-trade governments have improved things for themselves or for the world.
International cooperation brings great wealth and security, and a diversification of resources. Should each EU country also go it alone? Internationalists have built the most free, prosperous, and secure world that has ever been seen. It's hard to see how the recent nationalist, anti-trade governments have improved things for themselves or for the world.
One does need self-reliance but enough diversification of sources.
Cheaper coffee this must mean for europe.
And it's already pretty cheap, how much cheaper can it get? Usually you'd pay somewhere around 1-1.2 EUR for an espresso, 1.5-2.0 EUR for "fancier" coffees, at least here in Spain (depends a lot on exactly where though).
You never make your own coffee at home then?
Price of coffee as in the ingredient for making the espresso has about doubled since covid.
Price of coffee as in the ingredient for making the espresso has about doubled since covid.
Where exactly has it doubled? I don't think I've noticed that here, I have coffee outside and at home.
Coffee has been getting more expensive for years, albeit mainly due to climate-related factors rather than political ones. In northern Europe it (like most things) is a lot more expensive.
I'm surprised Trump didn't threaten involved parties with tariffs or military action over that yet. As a European, very happy about that happening, for multiple reasons. It's a shame it took so long
Well yesterday he already imposed tariffs on several EU countries because they oppose the annexation of Greenland, so I wouldn't be surprised if he does the same in this case.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-vows-tariffs-eigh...
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-vows-tariffs-eigh...
[deleted]
Me too. I just think he needs to pick his battles right now as Greenland is taking so much space.
Maybe that’ll still come once he gets his intel briefing from Fox & Friends
Trump used this card already, he already imposed tariffs once so nobody cares about that threat anymore.
That's the thing with tariffs, they only work once.
That's the thing with tariffs, they only work once.
You can always impose additional tariffs until it is ludicrous levels. Eg 100% or more like China has reached a few times before it was walked back.
It doesn't matter if he does it or not now, the US market is now seen as unreliable and risky.
If there's one thing companies hate more than taxes, it's uncertainty.
If there's one thing companies hate more than taxes, it's uncertainty.
But there is a cap: you can only bring down trade with a country to zero. This might inflict some pain in the immediate, but eventually trade is simply directed elsewhere - and you lose any leverage you have.
[deleted]
The multiple reasons being exactly?
In my opinion it is a net negative for all countries in Europe, but one.
In my opinion it is a net negative for all countries in Europe, but one.
Most importantly, Europe needs more trading partners after having lost Russia and now losing the United States. Second, I am happy about German (I suspect it's similar in other EU countries) farmers largely supporting the far-right getting a taste of a world without protectionism and regulations. Finally, I hope for lower grocery prices, not only for myself, but also because it makes the whole social situation less explosive.
Fair trade yes. Unfair trade no. And Mercosur is COMPLETELY unfair to European farmers. It imposes higher standards - and thus costs - on European farmers, while allowing South American farmers to produce with lower quality and adding forbidden substances to grow crops faster - and cheaper.
This is a common meme but wrong.
The imported goods are subject to the same restrictions as those produced within EU.
What hurts EU farmers the most is the big supermarket cartel that controls prices and pushes farmers to produce more and more cheaply (and consumers that react extremely sensitive to every price increase, but that’s a more inconvenient truth)
What hurts EU farmers the most is the big supermarket cartel that controls prices and pushes farmers to produce more and more cheaply (and consumers that react extremely sensitive to every price increase, but that’s a more inconvenient truth)
That's like an anti-cartel, a cartel that keeps the consumer prices low.
With 12 euro/kg currently I wouldn't call beef in Germany extremely cheap on the world scale. Poultry has pretty much crossed the 10 euro mark too.
With 12 euro/kg currently I wouldn't call beef in Germany extremely cheap on the world scale. Poultry has pretty much crossed the 10 euro mark too.
Definition of a cartel is a combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises designed to limit competition or fix prices - it can be a cartel that basically oppresses farmers and have low consumer prices as result
And how does Asian countries curtail this?
Since we got trade deals when it comes to food with them, and they 100% do not have the same standard as European farmers.
And the EU won't check these inferior products for any problems?
Since we got trade deals when it comes to food with them, and they 100% do not have the same standard as European farmers.
And the EU won't check these inferior products for any problems?
> South American farmers to produce with lower quality and adding forbidden substances to grow crops faster - and cheaper.
This is a lot of fearmongering in a small sentences.
Nothing in the agreement says that that the EU has ro accept food produced with substandard practices.
Also, food produce in South America is not exactly low standards.
This is a lot of fearmongering in a small sentences.
Nothing in the agreement says that that the EU has ro accept food produced with substandard practices.
Also, food produce in South America is not exactly low standards.
On average, South American farmers use 2-3 times more pesticides than farmers in Europe. 2-3 times more would be illegal in Europe, but is allowed as part of Mercosur trade.
Pesticides banned in Europe, but allowed in South America: Atrazine, Acephate, Mancozeb, Paraquat, and many more.
Diseases they can produce include: Parkinson's, brain damage in children and lower IQ, infertility, genetic mutations.
Pesticides banned in Europe, but allowed in South America: Atrazine, Acephate, Mancozeb, Paraquat, and many more.
Diseases they can produce include: Parkinson's, brain damage in children and lower IQ, infertility, genetic mutations.
This is the fearmongering I am talking about.
Nothing in the deal says that EU has to accept anything that does not adhere to EU standards. Any food imports have to follow EU regulations. It only allows (a fairly dismal quota) to go through without tariffs.
So all the bullshit you just said (which I am not even sure I trust) is irrelevant.
Nothing in the deal says that EU has to accept anything that does not adhere to EU standards. Any food imports have to follow EU regulations. It only allows (a fairly dismal quota) to go through without tariffs.
So all the bullshit you just said (which I am not even sure I trust) is irrelevant.
This can more some of the incredibly polluting meat (beef) industry to countries where the pollution is lower due to less intensive methods over a larger area, which is a win-win.
This is a boon to any European manufacturer and machining company.
This is a boon to any European manufacturer and machining company.
At which point the "rest of the world" (everyone but the US) can just threaten Trump with making the US economically irrelevant?
That would seem a simple and peaceful solution to the Trump-inflicted bullying - stop messing around or we'll cease all commerce with you.
As I see it, just the bluff would suffice. Make the threat credible and the higher powers would remove Trump in a day or two.
That would seem a simple and peaceful solution to the Trump-inflicted bullying - stop messing around or we'll cease all commerce with you.
As I see it, just the bluff would suffice. Make the threat credible and the higher powers would remove Trump in a day or two.
> Make the threat credible and the higher powers would remove Trump in a day or two.
What unites them is that their agenda isn't aligned with the electorate. People still try to make sense of things, like this is just another administration, maybe a weird one, but fundamentally part of the same society as you and me. We can't recognize the real nature of that beast, because we are short of imagination. And... we don't want to believe in conspiracy theories, right?
The top isn't compatible with democracy, people like Thiel are not shy about it. We just don't want to believe that.
Thanks, interesting, what articles can I read to learn more?
This is a bad deal for many European countries that still have a strong farming industry, and for Europeans in general too.
Once again, Germany has pushed through its interests at the expense of other European nations like Poland. This time even France was against it.
What is Germany going to get? A new market for their decaying automobile industry.
What is the rest of Europe going to get? Cheap, low quality food shipped thousands of kilometers. Food produced with lower standards than food produced in the EU - so farmers in Europe now have to face unfair competition.
Once again, Germany has pushed through its interests at the expense of other European nations like Poland. This time even France was against it.
What is Germany going to get? A new market for their decaying automobile industry.
What is the rest of Europe going to get? Cheap, low quality food shipped thousands of kilometers. Food produced with lower standards than food produced in the EU - so farmers in Europe now have to face unfair competition.
This is an incredibly mid take.
This is a boon for any European manufacturing and tech company. Not "just" German car manufacturers but especially machining and pharmaceutical companies.
Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU, and has an outsized political capital for their importance based on historical momentum. This is also primarily bad for the beef industry, which is produced in the EU using very intensive and polluting (ammonia) methods which are also bad for animal welfare. They deserve no sympathy.
This is a boon for any European manufacturing and tech company. Not "just" German car manufacturers but especially machining and pharmaceutical companies.
Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU, and has an outsized political capital for their importance based on historical momentum. This is also primarily bad for the beef industry, which is produced in the EU using very intensive and polluting (ammonia) methods which are also bad for animal welfare. They deserve no sympathy.
> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU
As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.
As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.
Mercusor nations only get lower tariffs up to a certain amount. For meat that's roughly 1.5% of EU production. That is no threat to Europe's strategic capacity.
That would happen anyway as the EU is a net importer of fertilizer.
Fortunately there's around 800kg per capita worth of food storage in the EU, so should a war break out we're not all immediately dead - just vegetarian after a period of slaughtering all the livestock that can't be fed.
Fortunately there's around 800kg per capita worth of food storage in the EU, so should a war break out we're not all immediately dead - just vegetarian after a period of slaughtering all the livestock that can't be fed.
We can always eat bugs that the EU authorized for human consumption. I would at least. Cricket farms are more sustainable than cattle or pig farming. I like to think of them as grass shrimp.
This kind of incentive should not block trade. If we need sufficient production capacity for security reasons, it’s ok to subsidize it, but the product should still compete on the market and surplus can always be donated to UN. There’s enough starving people on this planet.
Right now the current system is totally inefficient, with a lot of food waste, and a lot of ruined landscapes and soil because of pollution and intrants
We need on the contrary to produce less globally, but more organically, and to reduce waste and produce locally
We need on the contrary to produce less globally, but more organically, and to reduce waste and produce locally
It may be inefficient, but protectionism is never a solution and we are not yet in a state where food is abundant and accessible to everyone.
On the contrary, it's quite apparent today that globalization and free borders have largely failed the people, and that some amount of protectionism should be put back in place
No, it is not apparent. Globalization has driven economic growth in a lot of countries, both developing and developed. There’s steady increase in HDI everywhere, decrease in extreme poverty, less hunger, better education etc etc. Nothing of that would be possible in postcolonial protectionist world. What you are talking about as reasonable amount isn’t protectionist, it’s just a sane set of domestic policies (welfare, education, industrial policy etc) that help countries to survive and grow in globalized world. There’s a difference between gatekeeping local markets and steering local industries for better competition and consumer protection. The latter just sets strict rules, but still allows global players to participate. Automotive sector has plenty of examples like that.
We're speaking of the effect ON DEVELOPED COUNTRIES WORKFORCE, it mostly has failed the people, with jobs sent overseas, and lower quality goods, full of pesticides, coming in. All that for what? Just overconsumption that mostly ends in the trash. A new world IS possible
If you want to use national security as a justification for subsidies, you need to be careful with what you are subsidizing. Only essential things should be subsidized. Non-essential things can be left to the market, or at least their subsidies require other justifications.
From a national security perspective, it is essential to provide basic nutrition to people when international trade is disrupted. Having access to food people enjoy eating is not essential. The viability of existing agricultural businesses is not essential. The preservation of cultural traditions related to food and agriculture is not essential. And so on.
It's also important to consider where the subsidies should be directed. Here in Finland, the explicit justification for agricultural subsidies has always been the assumption that food produced in "European countries that still have a strong farming industry" might not be available during a crisis.
From a national security perspective, it is essential to provide basic nutrition to people when international trade is disrupted. Having access to food people enjoy eating is not essential. The viability of existing agricultural businesses is not essential. The preservation of cultural traditions related to food and agriculture is not essential. And so on.
It's also important to consider where the subsidies should be directed. Here in Finland, the explicit justification for agricultural subsidies has always been the assumption that food produced in "European countries that still have a strong farming industry" might not be available during a crisis.
Most of Europe has long reached a population density that makes it effectively impossible to achieve self-sufficiency, so this argument is pointless.
This is going to be a good agreement if it is policed well enough that Mercosur countries are effectively forced to raise their food-production standards (because accepting imports doesn't automatically mean they can ignore regulations on suitability). Europe gets cheaper basic staples and sells LATAM more services and value-added products.
I'd rather help our Latin "cousins" get out of poverty, than having to deal with the insanity of US culture wars.
This is going to be a good agreement if it is policed well enough that Mercosur countries are effectively forced to raise their food-production standards (because accepting imports doesn't automatically mean they can ignore regulations on suitability). Europe gets cheaper basic staples and sells LATAM more services and value-added products.
I'd rather help our Latin "cousins" get out of poverty, than having to deal with the insanity of US culture wars.
Shipping food across the globe works great along with green deal. Such food quality is also questionable in many ways because transportability must be #1 priority.
As another commenter pointed out, beef is especially interesting. On one hand EU cries about greenhouse gas and how we should eat less meat. On the other hand goes to reduce price and increase production of beef which such moves. Pure hypocrisy.
I wonder if someone will double down on checking how Brazil is protecting its rains forests? Or will it just look the other way while Europeans eat cheap food that was grown in what was rain forest very recently?
As another commenter pointed out, beef is especially interesting. On one hand EU cries about greenhouse gas and how we should eat less meat. On the other hand goes to reduce price and increase production of beef which such moves. Pure hypocrisy.
I wonder if someone will double down on checking how Brazil is protecting its rains forests? Or will it just look the other way while Europeans eat cheap food that was grown in what was rain forest very recently?
If anything, deepening economic relationships will strengthen European influence over complex issues.
As for transport - enough of this stuff is already transported across the ocean (from LATAM but also South Africa, for example) that I doubt there will be much of a change.
As for transport - enough of this stuff is already transported across the ocean (from LATAM but also South Africa, for example) that I doubt there will be much of a change.
Yeah, right. We currently see how that worked out with Russia. It turns out EU had little influence, but influence the other way was much stronger.
>Most of Europe has long reached a population density that makes it effectively impossible to achieve self-sufficiency, so this argument is pointless.
Current population density isn't an issue at all, but energy is.
Current population density isn't an issue at all, but energy is.
The eu is a net exporter of agricultural products, what you are saying is plainly false.
The problem is rather the inputs, mainly from mineral sources, used for the production and imported from countries such as Morocco or Russia (before the war). Mercosur doesn't solve any of those problems, and will decrease the EU food autonomy as farms will disappear due to the LATAM dumping.
The problem is rather the inputs, mainly from mineral sources, used for the production and imported from countries such as Morocco or Russia (before the war). Mercosur doesn't solve any of those problems, and will decrease the EU food autonomy as farms will disappear due to the LATAM dumping.
Meat is incredibly bad for food security. If this scenario happens we will have to stop nearly all meat production and become forcibly vegetarian, like some countries did in WW2.
[deleted]
Most beef in the EU is a byproduct of the dairy industry. Beef meat comes from culled dairy cows, and a lot of production is done on land that isn't suitable for other uses (mountains, for instance). The EU has also the highest norms in the world regarding food production, and they are tightly enforced, unlike LATAM where a lot of cattle is grazed on deforested land with no regulation regarding chemicals.
What you are saying is very misleading if not plain false.
What you are saying is very misleading if not plain false.
Restricting the analysis purely to economics is a big mistake, imho, like it was during the Brexit referendum in the UK.
Even in France agriculture is a very small percentage of the GDP and jobs. But what has happened is a demonstration of the loss of sovereignty with the EU effectively imposing something against the wish of the country. So the significance is political, and we'll see if that has tangible political effects or not.
Even in France agriculture is a very small percentage of the GDP and jobs. But what has happened is a demonstration of the loss of sovereignty with the EU effectively imposing something against the wish of the country. So the significance is political, and we'll see if that has tangible political effects or not.
In a time where:
- there are climate change issues
- there are many issues with pollution getting in the food chain
- we need to be more autonomous, and less depending on other nations, because of idiots like Trump
I think on the contrary we should defend our local agriculture, when it is respectful of nature
- there are climate change issues
- there are many issues with pollution getting in the food chain
- we need to be more autonomous, and less depending on other nations, because of idiots like Trump
I think on the contrary we should defend our local agriculture, when it is respectful of nature
Amazing, we sell them our gadgets and in return we get growth hormone beef and other agricultural products which don't even meet 1980s EU regulations, big win indeed
God forbid we subsidize food too, it's only like the #1 priority when it comes to sovereignty after all, we should definitely not produce locally and rely on foreign countries for our food autonomy
God forbid we subsidize food too, it's only like the #1 priority when it comes to sovereignty after all, we should definitely not produce locally and rely on foreign countries for our food autonomy
How come folks seem to focus on beef, while IMO the real stakes are in obtaining access to important minerals. Lithium, nickel, copper, graphite, niobium, etc. are often listed. There's a nice breakdown on EC pages:
https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-cou...
https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-cou...
Why do we focus on the shit part of the deal? Do I need to explain that really?
Because that part of the deal is not shitty.
You are just fearmongering based on lies. "Hormone raised cattle", and shit like that.
South America likely has the best beef in the world (I can speak from experience having lived on both sides of the pond). Good that I might have access to real meat here for once.
You are just fearmongering based on lies. "Hormone raised cattle", and shit like that.
South America likely has the best beef in the world (I can speak from experience having lived on both sides of the pond). Good that I might have access to real meat here for once.
> South America likely has the best beef in the world
lol
> Good that I might have access to real meat here for once.
lmao
It's one of the most corrupt part of the world and they 100% definitely use antibiotics and hormones banned in europe for safety reasons
lol
> Good that I might have access to real meat here for once.
lmao
It's one of the most corrupt part of the world and they 100% definitely use antibiotics and hormones banned in europe for safety reasons
> 100% definitely use antibiotics and hormones banned in europe for safety reasons
No it's not. South American meat, particularly from Argentina, Uruguay, and Southern Brazil is phenomenal. It's just the perfect geography and climate for cattle.
You are just crying for protectionism. If a less than 2% quota over the European production threatens you, it speaks more about your inability to do your job properly.
No it's not. South American meat, particularly from Argentina, Uruguay, and Southern Brazil is phenomenal. It's just the perfect geography and climate for cattle.
You are just crying for protectionism. If a less than 2% quota over the European production threatens you, it speaks more about your inability to do your job properly.
The shit part is what easily stris emotions and can be played by various actors and their agendas.
Yes of course, and the energy or minerals lobbies don't have any kind of agendas of course. They're obviously working for your well being and not serving their interests
Also, one of the most corrupt country in the world will obviously play by the rules
Also, one of the most corrupt country in the world will obviously play by the rules
As far as I know, there is a limitation to how much food is shipped and tied to a percentage of EU farming. So no, the european market will not be flooded.
No need to add racism to the argument.
This exact thing is was said about Poland when they joined the EU, the truth was that French/Spanish/German farmers didn't want to give up non specialized farming, and the same argument has been made and was a primary reason why Ukraine is not in the EU.
Plus it's odd that specifically this deal is so bad, but deals with importing Asian grown food via trade deal is fine.
This exact thing is was said about Poland when they joined the EU, the truth was that French/Spanish/German farmers didn't want to give up non specialized farming, and the same argument has been made and was a primary reason why Ukraine is not in the EU.
Plus it's odd that specifically this deal is so bad, but deals with importing Asian grown food via trade deal is fine.
Wait and see how it goes. This deal might have real political consequences countries opposed to it, especially in France because of the opposition to the deal and by demonstrating that the country no longer has control: so this is a vindication for eurosceptic parties and embarrassing for the most pro-EU ones. This may just be short-term anger, and the whole establishment will push for it to be forgotten asap as the Presidential elections are in just a bit more than a year away.
Isn't it geopolitics over economics, future-building when preexisting relationships are increasingly unreliable?
"paying a premium to have options in multiple possible futures"
"paying a premium to have options in multiple possible futures"
From a pragmatic perspective it’s just common sense. Europe cannot produce food at prices its population expects. It has no cattle herd to speak of yet consumes lots of beef. It wants for multiple commodities which don’t grow there. And as time goes on there’ll be less and less food production in Europe.
And the idea that food products from SA are low quality is a very old and uninformed take. For better or worse SA has invested heavily in technology in the agricultural sector. Researches from Europe go to Brazil to learn about cattle genetic improvement and farming, not the other way around.
Most of the EU economy comes from services and manufacturing. They’re ensuring a market for that larger base. Angering the small percentage of farmers to ensure food supply and manufacturing survival is the trade off.
And the idea that food products from SA are low quality is a very old and uninformed take. For better or worse SA has invested heavily in technology in the agricultural sector. Researches from Europe go to Brazil to learn about cattle genetic improvement and farming, not the other way around.
Most of the EU economy comes from services and manufacturing. They’re ensuring a market for that larger base. Angering the small percentage of farmers to ensure food supply and manufacturing survival is the trade off.
The prices partially were affected by green deal stuff and other home-grown regulations. Maybe regulations should be lowered instead of letting in cheaper produce from locations where such regulations don’t apply?
Funny, I think this deal was better for the EU than for Mercosur. Still a net positive for both sides though.
That European farmers are crying over wanting more protectionism is nothing new.
The quotas for food imports to EU are dismal, and the food needs to adhere to EU standards anyway. But even that is being cried about as "unfair competition".
That European farmers are crying over wanting more protectionism is nothing new.
The quotas for food imports to EU are dismal, and the food needs to adhere to EU standards anyway. But even that is being cried about as "unfair competition".
Farmers like to complain and always get new privileges with every protest
I for once are happy they are getting a reality check for once
I for once are happy they are getting a reality check for once
I hope you won't get a reality check if one day there is a famine in Europe caused by outsourcing the entire farming to other continents. The very first thing any enemy force would do is a naval blockade, the rest is patience and lots of deaths.
Farming already is heavily subsidized in every EU country. The whole sector only exists as is precisely because of the fears you point out. And that is perfectly fine, because statistically speaking it already is a rounding error both in share of employment and share of GDP (1.2% of EU GDP), only kept alive for the exact purpose you talk about.
So even if these lobby talking points would be true, and everything had to be 100% subsidized, that wouldn't be a problem.
So even if these lobby talking points would be true, and everything had to be 100% subsidized, that wouldn't be a problem.
Buddy, we are talking about a quota that is less than 2% of the beef produced in EU.
If having 1% of beef imported causes a famine, then the farming in Europe is actually pretty awful.
If having 1% of beef imported causes a famine, then the farming in Europe is actually pretty awful.
Is it fair for Europe to colonize north america, Australia, canada, New Zealand and dumping what's produced there on other countries?
Is it fair to put an entire continent in a position where it does not belong? If I recall correctly Australia and New Zealand were mostly colonized by the British Empire, not by "Europe", Canada by UK and France, US by Western Europe, etc. Europe is a continent, not a country, and Europe did not colonize anything, some countries did.
Europe did not colonize the world - some European countries did. I come from Poland, a country that never colonized another country, so I do not need that moral lecturing.
It is not even a matter of fairness, but of defending one owns interests.
It is not even a matter of fairness, but of defending one owns interests.
The eventual aim is to join all these blocs up.
Isn't the eventual aim of all of us on this planet that we all trade free, live peacefully and have our own prosperous lives?
Quite a few people are willing to ruin their own lives and prosperity to make others worse off. Once you realize that, a lot of things become more explicable.
But I don't think their goal is explicitly to make others worse off, it's just the consequence of their actions. But in their mind, they're rightful, they're doing the best they can and they care about others on the level "you should". Most people think like this, including you and me.
In the near future almost all work will have been automated. That leaves a few thousand very rich people and billions who have no paid income. That is not a good ratio and the rich and powerful want things to go in their favour, not ours.
"Isn't the eventual aim of all of us on this planet that we all trade free, live peacefully and have our own prosperous lives?"
It's not about all of us. It's about a select few who think they are better than the rest of us and form our political and business classes.
Those people don't want most of the world's population living untroubled lives. When work is almost completely automated the rest of us will be surplus to requirements.
It's not about all of us. It's about a select few who think they are better than the rest of us and form our political and business classes.
Those people don't want most of the world's population living untroubled lives. When work is almost completely automated the rest of us will be surplus to requirements.
[deleted]
But I think the deal is quite positive from a geopolitical perspective. For one, any deal we make without the US just makes us more resilient in the event of a trade war that looks increasingly inevitable. Obviously Mercosur can't replace the US but it's a step in the right direction. And strengthening ties between the EU and Latin America makes it more difficult for Russia and China to bring that continent into their sphere of influence.