Ask HN: 6 months of trying to get a job with no luck, should I go get a degree?
31 comments
Poor stats in getting replies is almost always due to having a poorly written CV. Did you try having your CV to someone who does hiring?
As for getting a degree, most things in recruitment are actually signalling(as in asymmetrical information). By having a degree in CS you'd be signalling that: 1) You have the discipline to stick with something for four years 2) You can learn any new technology thrown at you 3) You have some analytical thinking capability
The languages you learn and use during your studies is mostly irrelevant.
As for getting a degree, most things in recruitment are actually signalling(as in asymmetrical information). By having a degree in CS you'd be signalling that: 1) You have the discipline to stick with something for four years 2) You can learn any new technology thrown at you 3) You have some analytical thinking capability
The languages you learn and use during your studies is mostly irrelevant.
I mentioned in another comment but I ran out of space in the original post.
I've reworked my CV and had 2 people who do recruiting for a living help me refine it. I've also made it look nice with a bit of colour and some nice fonts so it doesn't look like a boring old CV made in word with Times, but at the same time still looks professional.
I've reworked my CV and had 2 people who do recruiting for a living help me refine it. I've also made it look nice with a bit of colour and some nice fonts so it doesn't look like a boring old CV made in word with Times, but at the same time still looks professional.
Why don't you post your CV (stripping identifying information if you want) - that way people can give you better feedback about why you might be being rejected.
Talk to someone who actually is a hiring manager, not a recruiter. Recruiters are just middle men and most don't know what they are talking about.
Sorry I said that wrong, they both do hiring for companies rather than working at a recruitment agency.
Both of them said that you should put more emphasis on your cover letter and initial email as they won't even open your CV if your cover letter doesn't stand out.
Both of them said that you should put more emphasis on your cover letter and initial email as they won't even open your CV if your cover letter doesn't stand out.
Getting a degree can only help your chances of getting hired. You're right, many employers see that you don't have a degree and immediately throw your application out--no matter how unjust that might be.
Never count on the employer to follow up or get back to you. That is your job. Send your own follow up emails. It makes you stand out.
Don't be so sure that you won't use Java/C#. You never know where your career will take you.
Computer Science is not about learning languages, it's about learning concepts. You will gain a lot of knowledge in a CS program that is language agnostic.
Never count on the employer to follow up or get back to you. That is your job. Send your own follow up emails. It makes you stand out.
Don't be so sure that you won't use Java/C#. You never know where your career will take you.
Computer Science is not about learning languages, it's about learning concepts. You will gain a lot of knowledge in a CS program that is language agnostic.
That's true, I do try to follow up every potential job, but even if I email them multiple times, I still never hear back. There's been a few jobs that I've rung up to ask if they have received my application, and I still never hear back.
The problem going through job sites (which I hate) is that you can never find the actual email address so it's kinda hard to follow up on potential jobs.
But I do see what you mean when it comes down to concepts. I still can't see myself using Java/C# however. I've never owned a Windows machine before and I'm interested in websites and web apps opposed to desktop apps, so I can most likely get away without using Java/C#.
The problem going through job sites (which I hate) is that you can never find the actual email address so it's kinda hard to follow up on potential jobs.
But I do see what you mean when it comes down to concepts. I still can't see myself using Java/C# however. I've never owned a Windows machine before and I'm interested in websites and web apps opposed to desktop apps, so I can most likely get away without using Java/C#.
Sure. But let's say you want to get in to enterprise development. Almost every large company out there has an IBM (Java) or Microsoft (C#) stack on their backend. And yes, I'm talking about for web apps.
Despite what HN would have you believe, most of the big guys aren't using Rails or Node.
Despite what HN would have you believe, most of the big guys aren't using Rails or Node.
Yea I get you, but honestly I have no desire to get into enterprise stuff and work for a large firm. I would much rather prefer working for a startup or a smaller more creative company.
I really just want to get some cash flowing in so I can invest them in my own ideas and hopefully one day start my own startup if the opportunity arises.
I really just want to get some cash flowing in so I can invest them in my own ideas and hopefully one day start my own startup if the opportunity arises.
It's a lot easier to be picky once you have a degree and a few years of experience under your belt and some money saved up.
Realize that whatever path you take, if you are looking for a future/career and web development you need to be actively developing. Use your free time to build a bullet proof portfolio showcasing your talent. If you have a strong portfolio, the work will find you with or without that piece of paper.
I see red flags though in reading that you have applied to 50 companies and only received 4 responses. Your approach in contacting these companies is flawed or the representation of your skillset and capabilities is weak/inaccurate.
Also, put yourself in the shoes of the hiring manager. A 20 year old is telling you they have 4-5 years experience. It takes a fairly unique 15-16 year old to be building something of use at that age. Best case scenario (in the mind of the hiring manager) is you have may have 1-2 years of real working experience that would be of value to the role they are tying to fill. And these days, who doesn't?
Take a good hard look at where you motivation lies and pursue a path that will convince prospective employers that you have what it takes contribute at a high level. Production guys are a dime a dozen, what sets you apart?
I see red flags though in reading that you have applied to 50 companies and only received 4 responses. Your approach in contacting these companies is flawed or the representation of your skillset and capabilities is weak/inaccurate.
Also, put yourself in the shoes of the hiring manager. A 20 year old is telling you they have 4-5 years experience. It takes a fairly unique 15-16 year old to be building something of use at that age. Best case scenario (in the mind of the hiring manager) is you have may have 1-2 years of real working experience that would be of value to the role they are tying to fill. And these days, who doesn't?
Take a good hard look at where you motivation lies and pursue a path that will convince prospective employers that you have what it takes contribute at a high level. Production guys are a dime a dozen, what sets you apart?
Here's my CV if anyone wants to critique it. Photoshop is terrible at exporting pdf's that aren't 999mb so excuse the fuzziness.
http://d.pr/f/6bIc
http://d.pr/f/6bIc
Drop the word blackhat from your SEO experience and mention of forum membership as well. You are starting off with a huge red flag.
Remove non-qualifying words as "familiar". You either know html5/css3 or you don't. Same goes for modifying PHP code files. You either know PHP or you don't. Talking about modifying is odd.
I'd consider leaving education section out altogether. It's not your strongest point so no reason to put it on display.
Remove non-qualifying words as "familiar". You either know html5/css3 or you don't. Same goes for modifying PHP code files. You either know PHP or you don't. Talking about modifying is odd.
I'd consider leaving education section out altogether. It's not your strongest point so no reason to put it on display.
Try and moving the actual programming to the top.
Lets say in this order :
HTML/CSS
PHP/MYsql (plus the other for tweaking or modifying. It shows inexperience and weakness. That you have never written anything from scratch)
Adobe
SEO
SEM
Social Media
Linux
Outsourcing ( i am not sure this is neccesary )
You also write that you have done a lot but give no creditable work done. Either post some links to your work, or create a personal website to display all that you have done.
If you are an HTML person you should have a few to display your work.
Create a small paragraph for your personal information why should someone hire you and your objective. No more than 5- 7 lines
Interests go to the bottom. That is not the second thing that i want to read.
Also ... learn a couple more languages. Someone with no degree should know more. This is a must. I wont hire you with no degree and only php even if it is a php guy that i am looking for. This shows me that you dont have what it takes to learn something. I need you to show me that you can learn even if you dont have a college degree. Plenty of web languages to go around ! Very important !!!
You also write that you have done a lot but give no creditable work done. Either post some links to your work, or create a personal website to display all that you have done.
If you are an HTML person you should have a few to display your work.
Create a small paragraph for your personal information why should someone hire you and your objective. No more than 5- 7 lines
Interests go to the bottom. That is not the second thing that i want to read.
Also ... learn a couple more languages. Someone with no degree should know more. This is a must. I wont hire you with no degree and only php even if it is a php guy that i am looking for. This shows me that you dont have what it takes to learn something. I need you to show me that you can learn even if you dont have a college degree. Plenty of web languages to go around ! Very important !!!
Depending on the types of jobs/agencies you're applying to, I can see the first couple of points getting your CV thrown straight out. Whilst it's useful to understand blackhat SEO strategies (to aid your execution of whitehat SEO and for knowing what NOT to do), coming across as pro-blackhat might give them the wrong idea...
In your past experience section I would highlight any positive contributions you made to projects you worked on there (without specifics) - i.e. 'Managed an $xxxx/month account'/'Increased monthly uniques by xMM or x% by using x technique' and so on.
On the plus side, the design is professional and it's not a gigantic wall of text. :)
In your past experience section I would highlight any positive contributions you made to projects you worked on there (without specifics) - i.e. 'Managed an $xxxx/month account'/'Increased monthly uniques by xMM or x% by using x technique' and so on.
On the plus side, the design is professional and it's not a gigantic wall of text. :)
By just looking at it briefly, I found a typo "effiecent" and a double space (I think), "managing contract". Don't start by introducing yourself as a blackhat. Make the experience part way more detailed, as this is your strongest asset.
The list of CDN does not continue in the following line.
Keep in mind, you do not want to be in the TOP 10 for any given position, but you want to be the single best candidate. You somehow have to compensate for your lack of formal education.
The list of CDN does not continue in the following line.
Keep in mind, you do not want to be in the TOP 10 for any given position, but you want to be the single best candidate. You somehow have to compensate for your lack of formal education.
Here are my suggestions:
- I don't know how resumes in NZ need to be formatted. Here are some resources that I found:
http://www.prospects.ac.uk/example_cvs.htm (A Skills-based CV seems to be what you want to do)
http://www.careers.govt.nz/how-to-get-a-job/cvs-and-cover-le...
- I suggest not being creative when formatting your resume or CV unless you are applying for designing jobs.
- Remove the Interests section or include only the interests that relate to the jobs that you are applying for. Definitely remove the line "Attempting to become a creative chef".
- Integrate some of the major keywords that a job description has into your resume or cover letter if applicable
- If LinkedIn is popular in your country, definitely set up a LinkedIn profile
- Create a different version of your resume with more focus on experience like the Traditional one mentioned here: http://www.prospects.ac.uk/example_cvs.htm and see if that works better.
I hope that helps. Best of luck!
- I don't know how resumes in NZ need to be formatted. Here are some resources that I found:
http://www.prospects.ac.uk/example_cvs.htm (A Skills-based CV seems to be what you want to do)
http://www.careers.govt.nz/how-to-get-a-job/cvs-and-cover-le...
- I suggest not being creative when formatting your resume or CV unless you are applying for designing jobs.
- Remove the Interests section or include only the interests that relate to the jobs that you are applying for. Definitely remove the line "Attempting to become a creative chef".
- Integrate some of the major keywords that a job description has into your resume or cover letter if applicable
- If LinkedIn is popular in your country, definitely set up a LinkedIn profile
- Create a different version of your resume with more focus on experience like the Traditional one mentioned here: http://www.prospects.ac.uk/example_cvs.htm and see if that works better.
I hope that helps. Best of luck!
One page [May be a US thing]
DJ'ing and Chefing aren't relevant.
Nobody is going to say they are lackadaisical, untrustworthy, and sport a flat affect.
Examples of skills are better than claims - give some numbers about Facebook and traffic.
Finally, isn't a 1.7 meg PDF a bit at odds with a claim of web expertise? It looks great, but html and css would seem more appropriate. Treat it as part of your portfolio.
Good luck.
DJ'ing and Chefing aren't relevant.
Nobody is going to say they are lackadaisical, untrustworthy, and sport a flat affect.
Examples of skills are better than claims - give some numbers about Facebook and traffic.
Finally, isn't a 1.7 meg PDF a bit at odds with a claim of web expertise? It looks great, but html and css would seem more appropriate. Treat it as part of your portfolio.
Good luck.
"I can almost guarantee I will not be using my future Java/C# (the 2 languages that they teach you at the uni I'm looking at) skills if I ever get a degree."
I'm not making an argument for University here (I think there are valid points on either side of that discussion), but to me the above shows a misunderstanding of what a University education is about. It is much less about learning practical skills (which is why it's not for everyone), than it is about learning theoretical concepts. However, most of all, University is about learning how to learn. How to learn things quickly and well at the same time. You may already be a good learner, but that is what the degree provides some assurance of (but not a guarantee) to hiring managers.
I'm not making an argument for University here (I think there are valid points on either side of that discussion), but to me the above shows a misunderstanding of what a University education is about. It is much less about learning practical skills (which is why it's not for everyone), than it is about learning theoretical concepts. However, most of all, University is about learning how to learn. How to learn things quickly and well at the same time. You may already be a good learner, but that is what the degree provides some assurance of (but not a guarantee) to hiring managers.
Additionally, and to my mind most critically, the university degree signals that you play well (enough) with others. It says you have learned that sometimes power is capricious and when it is you can keep your head down long enough to survive.
You should stop using a CV, and build an online portfolio. Then start marketing like an online business, rather than like a local contractor. You can get work the next week if you simply stop focusing on your bad luck. Start by advertising on your local classifieds.
Post a portfolio of your work. Maybe someone here would hire you? CVs are still important for some jobs, but probably not the kind of jobs you want to have...
Typically when someone is hiring they have 100's of applicants to weed through and no time to do it in. Don't take it personally they aren't emailing you, just change your approach, doing the same thing over and over might work, but then again likely not.
Call them and ask if they have 5 minutes for some quick feedback on why they hired someone else.
If you do a 4 year degree you will still have the same problem at the end of it, you will need to be able to sell yourself. Piece of paper won't make much different IMHO.
Typically when someone is hiring they have 100's of applicants to weed through and no time to do it in. Don't take it personally they aren't emailing you, just change your approach, doing the same thing over and over might work, but then again likely not.
Call them and ask if they have 5 minutes for some quick feedback on why they hired someone else.
If you do a 4 year degree you will still have the same problem at the end of it, you will need to be able to sell yourself. Piece of paper won't make much different IMHO.
I still think not getting a degree is a mistake any young person would make because of the way jobs are structured today.
Am not blaming you but i advice you should still make any effort possible to get a degree because its harder and though to think of a job in a typical society without a degree and even a certification to distinguish yourself.
And i suggest you loosen up a bit because i think you are strict with the technologies you learned, If its possible to learn c#, Java and whatever thing please grab it fast - Technology is moving like a wind.
But if you think you still want to stand alone with your skills, then its just as good but take note that it may take more skills and harder work since you will be doing it yourself. Then you have to start thinking of what to build that can solve a major problem in the society or the world.
It takes courage, Focus, self determination and ability to go against the trend like Mark, Bill Gates and the rest of them who had to quit studies. But the choice is yours.
PLEASE you can not serve too masters at a time either you get a degree and get a better job while you keep on exploiting your skills or you take a decision and stand as a freelancer and be ready to do things on your own like starting a startup. You are very young to make either of the decisions but you must decide fast. When you decide correctly the Jobs will be looking for you and earning a living will be the smallest thing to bother about.
And i suggest you loosen up a bit because i think you are strict with the technologies you learned, If its possible to learn c#, Java and whatever thing please grab it fast - Technology is moving like a wind.
But if you think you still want to stand alone with your skills, then its just as good but take note that it may take more skills and harder work since you will be doing it yourself. Then you have to start thinking of what to build that can solve a major problem in the society or the world.
It takes courage, Focus, self determination and ability to go against the trend like Mark, Bill Gates and the rest of them who had to quit studies. But the choice is yours.
PLEASE you can not serve too masters at a time either you get a degree and get a better job while you keep on exploiting your skills or you take a decision and stand as a freelancer and be ready to do things on your own like starting a startup. You are very young to make either of the decisions but you must decide fast. When you decide correctly the Jobs will be looking for you and earning a living will be the smallest thing to bother about.
I feel your pain - I too don't have a degree. But I do hold a day job as a sys admin and web developer and do website development on the side - and as you said, things have dried up a bit in recent times and I don't get as much side work as I ust to - but, thats why I maintain a day job.
If you applied to 50 jobs and you heard back from 4, something is probably wrong with your resume. try reworking that.
If you wanna stay how you've been (working for ad agencies) fire up google maps or whatever, and run some searches - send some emails, try to call people, etc...
You obviously got jobs before with agencies; find some new ones.
I'm on the fence with degrees - some fields require them obviously (doctor, dentist, etc...) some do not (mechanic, web development, etc...)
I never regret not getting a degree - its made me who I am and I fight for my self education / jobs I apply for. But its never been "easy" not having a degree.
I think those of us without degrees are more "hungry" then the rest. Because we didn't sit in a class and were feed knowledge and had to go out and get it ourselves, we seek out new knowledge more than someone with a degree might.
Plus - sitting through 2-4 years of uni won't help you now if you have no money. Fix your resume, maybe do a portfolio website for yourself and find a job. Then, while working, if you still want to get a degree, go get it.
If you applied to 50 jobs and you heard back from 4, something is probably wrong with your resume. try reworking that.
If you wanna stay how you've been (working for ad agencies) fire up google maps or whatever, and run some searches - send some emails, try to call people, etc...
You obviously got jobs before with agencies; find some new ones.
I'm on the fence with degrees - some fields require them obviously (doctor, dentist, etc...) some do not (mechanic, web development, etc...)
I never regret not getting a degree - its made me who I am and I fight for my self education / jobs I apply for. But its never been "easy" not having a degree.
I think those of us without degrees are more "hungry" then the rest. Because we didn't sit in a class and were feed knowledge and had to go out and get it ourselves, we seek out new knowledge more than someone with a degree might.
Plus - sitting through 2-4 years of uni won't help you now if you have no money. Fix your resume, maybe do a portfolio website for yourself and find a job. Then, while working, if you still want to get a degree, go get it.
I tried to mention my CV but I only had 2000 characters of text.
I've reworked it at least 5 times. I've shown it to 2 people who do recruiting for a living who have helped me tweak it to the best I can. To the jobs I got interviews with, most of them did mention that they liked my CV. There's always room for improvment but I think it is pretty good atm.
Also for some web design jobs, I've redesigned the employers website (cause most of the time they suck). I think I did it about 4 times and not 1 of them replied back so I kinda gave up on that idea.
I've reworked it at least 5 times. I've shown it to 2 people who do recruiting for a living who have helped me tweak it to the best I can. To the jobs I got interviews with, most of them did mention that they liked my CV. There's always room for improvment but I think it is pretty good atm.
Also for some web design jobs, I've redesigned the employers website (cause most of the time they suck). I think I did it about 4 times and not 1 of them replied back so I kinda gave up on that idea.
20 is still young, I'd get a degree, it might help land you a job, it might not, but the main problem at the moment, and I'm speaking about my country, though I think it goes for multiple countries, is that employers now have too much choice. Let's say company X is looking for a new web developer, giving the current status of the market 50 people apply for the job, so much choice, lets cut that down, eliminate all the ones without a degree, still 40, lets delete all the ones with a degree and zero experience, 25 ... That's better, and then lets see what else they can use to cut down (how much experience, knowledge, place of residence,...).
So, you have experience, now I'd go for a degree and keep that experience up as best as possible. Besides, later on in your career, that degree might help you get other jobs, promotions, better pay ...
Just my 2c.
So, you have experience, now I'd go for a degree and keep that experience up as best as possible. Besides, later on in your career, that degree might help you get other jobs, promotions, better pay ...
Just my 2c.
In my country as well, it's the same deal. However we are still behind the times as most employers somehow think asp is the shit when it comes to web development.
99% of the jobs here are for .net/java/c# and most them require you to be 'Microsoft Certified'. I've even seen a few jobs for Linux Support roles that require you to be 'Microsoft Certified'. That's probably why they the listings have been there for months :p
99% of the jobs here are for .net/java/c# and most them require you to be 'Microsoft Certified'. I've even seen a few jobs for Linux Support roles that require you to be 'Microsoft Certified'. That's probably why they the listings have been there for months :p
I've been wondering along the same lines, though my situation's a little different. I'm employed full time at a software company, and I'm about 70-80% of the way through my bachelor degree. I've discussed it with a couple of people in the company who are in higher positions than I am, and they've both said that it's good to have it, just for the sake of having it. Managers (or HR) use it as a checkbox - a quick way of filtering out applicants. I was told the following by my manager yesterday: "If I'm looking at you and someone with the same skills, but he has a bachelor degree, I'm going to hire him. He's proven that he can stick with it, and he gets the checkbox ticked."
The top skill you've put on your CV is blackhat SEO. Maybe that's why no one wants to hire you?
Im in the same boat only 33, and I started taking distance learning lessons for a degree.
Go get it .
Go get it .
My situation: since I was 16, I have earned a fairly nice amount of money off building, selling and monetizing websites. This all changed early last year when basically all the ad companies I worked with suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth. The money that I did save up, has diminished as my monthly income suddenly hit zero. Ever since about a year ago I've been struggling.
So I went about applying for full time jobs. I'm fluent in HTML/CSS, 5+ year experience with SEO, 4 years experience of SEO, 4 years experience of social media marketing and 4 years of DevOp experience especially with Debian distro's.
Now when it has come to finding a job I've virtually had no luck. Out of all the jobs that I've applied for (probably close to 50), I think I've had about 4 replies back. The majority of them, you never hear back, not even a email saying thanks for your application. I know not everyone will email back but I think it's pretty rude that 92% of the jobs I've applied for don't even have the courtesy to send a 1 liner back. And the jobs that I did get a interview with, NONE of them emailed me back saying sorry you didn't get the job even though I made them promise in the interview that they would.
The main thing I noticed is that employer see's I have no Uni degree and instantly crosses me off the list.
So that leads me to think should I go back and get a degree?
I'm 20 now, but I've had 2 attempts of starting a degree which haven't ended to well (poor choice of degree and uni).
I would probably give Computer Science another go, purely to get the piece of paper, as I can almost guarantee I will not be using my future Java/C# (the 2 languages that they teach you at the uni I'm looking at) skills if I ever get a degree.
So can anyone please help me by putting me on the right track of what I should considering doing?