How Exercise May Protect Against Depression(well.blogs.nytimes.com)
well.blogs.nytimes.com
How Exercise May Protect Against Depression
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/01/how-exercise-may-protect-against-depression/?src=me
88 comments
is no more effective than the best possible treatment sounds pretty good especially when used in conjunction with rather than instead of.
there are other studies including meta studies which show that exercise is an effective treatment with the lowest rate of relapse:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/for-depres...
we need more studies
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/for-depres...
we need more studies
Did you read any of the research quoted by the Atlantic article, or just the Atlantic article?
And did you bother to read the link I posted? Because it says
> The reviewers recommend that future research should look in more detail at what types of exercise could most benefit people with depression, and the number and duration of sessions which are of most benefit. Further larger trials are needed to find out whether exercise is as effective as antidepressants or psychological treatments
And did you bother to read the link I posted? Because it says
> The reviewers recommend that future research should look in more detail at what types of exercise could most benefit people with depression, and the number and duration of sessions which are of most benefit. Further larger trials are needed to find out whether exercise is as effective as antidepressants or psychological treatments
This is definitely not monumentally new advice but it is something that many people overlook when people are diagnosed with depression.
When people exercise it creates habits, these habits become something that allow people to have something positive to look forward to during their daily routine.
Depressions roots are tied to falling into a cycle of not doing things, by breaking that cycle you give yourself an opportunity to decrease your depression.
I'm the founder of a health and wellness startup that hopes to help people create habits and personalize their health regimes.
From the Harvard article, "How does exercise relieve depression? For many years, experts have known that exercise enhances the action of endorphins, chemicals that circulate throughout the body. Endorphins improve natural immunity and reduce the perception of pain. They may also serve to improve mood. Another theory is that exercise stimulates the neurotransmitter norepinephrine, which may directly improve mood."
To read more check here. http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Exercise-and-Depressi...
When people exercise it creates habits, these habits become something that allow people to have something positive to look forward to during their daily routine.
Depressions roots are tied to falling into a cycle of not doing things, by breaking that cycle you give yourself an opportunity to decrease your depression.
I'm the founder of a health and wellness startup that hopes to help people create habits and personalize their health regimes.
From the Harvard article, "How does exercise relieve depression? For many years, experts have known that exercise enhances the action of endorphins, chemicals that circulate throughout the body. Endorphins improve natural immunity and reduce the perception of pain. They may also serve to improve mood. Another theory is that exercise stimulates the neurotransmitter norepinephrine, which may directly improve mood."
To read more check here. http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Exercise-and-Depressi...
I've found that establishing a habit of exercise first thing after climbing out of bed really works.
The important thing is to not "break the chain". Even if you can only exercise a little on a particular day, do that little bit.
I decided to do burpees every day last April and have only missed it 2 days while on vacation.
Based on this article though, I'm going to change it to something more aerobic. I think burpees are so intense I can't do them for long enough to get the aerobic benefit.
The important thing is to not "break the chain". Even if you can only exercise a little on a particular day, do that little bit.
I decided to do burpees every day last April and have only missed it 2 days while on vacation.
Based on this article though, I'm going to change it to something more aerobic. I think burpees are so intense I can't do them for long enough to get the aerobic benefit.
I started an exercise regime (basically in an elliptical machine for 30 mins every day) six months back. I hurt my kness and it still hurts. I will see a sports doctor -- but any suggestions?
> In the meantime, if work and other pressures mount, it may be a good idea to go for a jog
This is not new, nor exciting advice. However I do think it's sound. Personally speaking, exercise allows me to work harder and play harder. It acts as sort of a mental refresh and barrier. If my work stress starts to evade my relaxation time, it often overlaps with me skipping out at the gym
This is not new, nor exciting advice. However I do think it's sound. Personally speaking, exercise allows me to work harder and play harder. It acts as sort of a mental refresh and barrier. If my work stress starts to evade my relaxation time, it often overlaps with me skipping out at the gym
That is not new advice.
By contrast the finding that well-trained muscles protect against depression by a mechanism involving breaking down kynurenine peripherally and thus preventing it from entering the brain is both new and in my opinion very exciting. After the fact it makes sense, but I would not have predicted it.
Incidentally, kynurenic acid in the brain is also implicated in schizophrenia, which makes me wonder if this will have explanation value beyond depression as well.
I find this an unexpected and delightful discovery.
By contrast the finding that well-trained muscles protect against depression by a mechanism involving breaking down kynurenine peripherally and thus preventing it from entering the brain is both new and in my opinion very exciting. After the fact it makes sense, but I would not have predicted it.
Incidentally, kynurenic acid in the brain is also implicated in schizophrenia, which makes me wonder if this will have explanation value beyond depression as well.
I find this an unexpected and delightful discovery.
> This is not new, nor exciting advice.
It wasn't meant to be. The article is titled "How Exercise May Protect Against Depression," with "how" being the exciting part. Pretty much everyone over the age of 25 has an exercise made me feel better, durrrrrrrrr story; seeing the science behind it is what makes this interesting.
It wasn't meant to be. The article is titled "How Exercise May Protect Against Depression," with "how" being the exciting part. Pretty much everyone over the age of 25 has an exercise made me feel better, durrrrrrrrr story; seeing the science behind it is what makes this interesting.
It takes some time to find some exercise that works for you. I hated the gym, running bored me, I didn't really fit in with the fightsport crowd in my city (all started classes were filled young kids, you might have better luck in a bigger city!) but swimming has been awesome so far. I used to stay in shape by cycling to work everyday but over the years I have become fatter, slower, less attractive, depressed and far less sharp.
I swim almost an hour everyday and during the weekends I sometimes go for 3-4 hours and it has done wonders for my depression, it also enhances your mental clarity and swimming is a great way to work out those hard recursion or architectural problems.
I used to deal with overwhelming negative emotions in less constructive ways, some days I still swim to "destroy", endorphins also work great for emotional pain so after that I usually feel a lot better.
I hear great things about climbing from other programmers. If you're depressed find something that you enjoy as a exercise, once you get the basics down it becomes a "flow" not much different from programming :)
I also take some St John's Wort, some vitamin D and I replaced most breakfasts with Soylent. So far it has done wonders in fighting my depression.
I swim almost an hour everyday and during the weekends I sometimes go for 3-4 hours and it has done wonders for my depression, it also enhances your mental clarity and swimming is a great way to work out those hard recursion or architectural problems.
I used to deal with overwhelming negative emotions in less constructive ways, some days I still swim to "destroy", endorphins also work great for emotional pain so after that I usually feel a lot better.
I hear great things about climbing from other programmers. If you're depressed find something that you enjoy as a exercise, once you get the basics down it becomes a "flow" not much different from programming :)
I also take some St John's Wort, some vitamin D and I replaced most breakfasts with Soylent. So far it has done wonders in fighting my depression.
PSA: Talk to a doctor about serotonin syndrome before trying St. John Wort if you take a SSRI.
Maybe some people are built to live through physical activity. I also function better when my body is under the right amount of pressure. I love the slight pain of afterwork, I love the calm bliss of exercise. I function far worse whenever I go below a threshold. Especially when replaced by day long satsurf session.
> I replaced most breakfasts with Soylent.
What were your breakfasts previously?
What were your breakfasts previously?
Running isn't boring, boring is just an excuse. If you were really running or if you were really exercising you'd be in too much pain to be bored. Running is a form of self torture pure and simple.
The people who tell you they enjoy running are really saying that they've disciplined themselves to master the pain. I mean, sure you get endorphins when you run, but the pain component of long distance running is far more intense then any high you can receive from endorphins. In essence people who truly exercise have conditioned themselves to the point where the negative effects of exercise become inconsequential and the benefits begin to outweigh the pain.
Make no mistake. Real Exercise isn't about finding something you simply enjoy and love. It is very intense work and something that you need to learn to love; kind of like programming.
The people who tell you they enjoy running are really saying that they've disciplined themselves to master the pain. I mean, sure you get endorphins when you run, but the pain component of long distance running is far more intense then any high you can receive from endorphins. In essence people who truly exercise have conditioned themselves to the point where the negative effects of exercise become inconsequential and the benefits begin to outweigh the pain.
Make no mistake. Real Exercise isn't about finding something you simply enjoy and love. It is very intense work and something that you need to learn to love; kind of like programming.
> Real Exercise isn't about finding something you simply enjoy and love.
Unless you find exercise that you also simply enjoy and love. That's even better. I love rock climbing and do not consider it boring. Climbing is painful, especially when I climb with friends that encourage me to push myself, but pain does not prevent it from being interesting and fun.
> It is very intense work
Yup
> and something that you need to learn to love; kind of like programming.
I didn't need to learn to love climbing just like I didn't need to learn to love programming. I did need to learn to push through the boring parts of programming (such as fixing my build environment which I should be doing right now) but the fundamental act of programming (building something out of logic) has always interested me. Just as I push through the boring parts of programming I push through the pain of climbing.
Unless you find exercise that you also simply enjoy and love. That's even better. I love rock climbing and do not consider it boring. Climbing is painful, especially when I climb with friends that encourage me to push myself, but pain does not prevent it from being interesting and fun.
> It is very intense work
Yup
> and something that you need to learn to love; kind of like programming.
I didn't need to learn to love climbing just like I didn't need to learn to love programming. I did need to learn to push through the boring parts of programming (such as fixing my build environment which I should be doing right now) but the fundamental act of programming (building something out of logic) has always interested me. Just as I push through the boring parts of programming I push through the pain of climbing.
Pain isn't fun, that's all I'm saying. When I said you need to learn to love it, all I meant was that you need to condition yourself against the pain. If you didn't need to do that, all the better to you. The main point is, it's not the type of fun that requires zero effort or zero pain; and exercise is definitely not boring.
> Pain isn't fun, that's all I'm saying
If that is all you are saying now then I agree with you. Earlier you were saying that "Running isn't boring" which is a very different statement. I don't find running as boring as some do, but I find the notion that you cannot be bored while in pain to be quite alien. If you work that way then fine, but neither I nor anyone I know who has been stuck doing something boring while in pain has had the same result as you.
If that is all you are saying now then I agree with you. Earlier you were saying that "Running isn't boring" which is a very different statement. I don't find running as boring as some do, but I find the notion that you cannot be bored while in pain to be quite alien. If you work that way then fine, but neither I nor anyone I know who has been stuck doing something boring while in pain has had the same result as you.
I probably have issues of some kind, but I like pain. For me, the best part about exercising regularly is being kind-of sore all of the time. I also enjoy the feeling of running into walls when I'm learning something new. Obviously, doing it too much can be discouraging, but I like having an apparently insurmountable obstacle to overcome.
I don't know how much of this is superstition or a natural perception of the good effects that come after the pain. I love it when I'm sore because I know I'll feel sharp and light next morning.
@seanflyon
I don't think we're in agreement. You can't be bored and be in pain at the same time. You're either bored, or you're in pain, you can't be bored while getting punched in the face or running 100 miles.
I don't think we're in agreement. You can't be bored and be in pain at the same time. You're either bored, or you're in pain, you can't be bored while getting punched in the face or running 100 miles.
I don't think we are in agreement either, that's why I qualified that statement with "If that is all you are saying". You said "Pain isn't fun, that's all I'm saying" and while I could tell that was not all you were saying, I was humoring you. I can most defiantly be bored while in pain. I have determined this experimentally. Many people I have talked to have clearly stated that they have been bored and in pain at the same time. You are the first person I have seen claim that they could not be bored and in pain at the same time. If that is true for you, then you are the only outlier in my (admittedly small) data set.
Your statement "You can't be bored and be in pain at the same time" is utterly ridiculous. According to Google, bored means "feeling weary because one is unoccupied or lacks interest in one's current activity". Pain does not hold my interest so it does not prevent me from lacking interest in my current activity.
Different people respond to pain differently. You are allowed to be different and given the small sample size available to me it is even possible that people like you are common. What I find annoying is you inability or unwillingness to understand that not everyone is you. Or perhaps you just don't know what "bored" means.
Your statement "You can't be bored and be in pain at the same time" is utterly ridiculous. According to Google, bored means "feeling weary because one is unoccupied or lacks interest in one's current activity". Pain does not hold my interest so it does not prevent me from lacking interest in my current activity.
Different people respond to pain differently. You are allowed to be different and given the small sample size available to me it is even possible that people like you are common. What I find annoying is you inability or unwillingness to understand that not everyone is you. Or perhaps you just don't know what "bored" means.
I nominate the word drudgery for simultaneous pain and boredom.
Real Exercise... is very intense work
For many of my favorite forms of sport, sure, this is true, but it isn't the case for everything. At least according to Training for the New Alpinism, Zone 2 is the best place for cardio training. [1] Per that book, however, novices don't train there because they share your belief. Zone 2 doesn't feel like intense work, so novices think they are doing something wrong when they train in that zone.
something that you need to learn to love
Nah. It isn't like brussel sprouts (IMO). I don't think I will ever grow to love the exercises I hate, and the exercises I enjoy I have enjoyed since day one. Or maybe day three- the first couple days of a new sport can be rough as you wake up forgotten, dusty muscles.
[1]: Assuming your sport is mountain climbing, or sports with similar cardio demands
For many of my favorite forms of sport, sure, this is true, but it isn't the case for everything. At least according to Training for the New Alpinism, Zone 2 is the best place for cardio training. [1] Per that book, however, novices don't train there because they share your belief. Zone 2 doesn't feel like intense work, so novices think they are doing something wrong when they train in that zone.
something that you need to learn to love
Nah. It isn't like brussel sprouts (IMO). I don't think I will ever grow to love the exercises I hate, and the exercises I enjoy I have enjoyed since day one. Or maybe day three- the first couple days of a new sport can be rough as you wake up forgotten, dusty muscles.
[1]: Assuming your sport is mountain climbing, or sports with similar cardio demands
Somewhat off-topic, but it's a thread about health, and you mentioned, so:
If well prepared, brussel sprouts can be quite delicious. Depends on the effort you want to put in, but you can grill them over low flame with some garlic and such, etc. you can browse recipes yourself but I'd recommend revisiting this if you think brussel sprouts could help you achieve your fitness goals.
If well prepared, brussel sprouts can be quite delicious. Depends on the effort you want to put in, but you can grill them over low flame with some garlic and such, etc. you can browse recipes yourself but I'd recommend revisiting this if you think brussel sprouts could help you achieve your fitness goals.
Sure maybe there are things that you hate about certain exercises that are unrelated to intensity or hard-work. But I was mostly responding to how the original commenter said running was boring. IMO it is virtually impossible to be bored with running simply because the pain involved is too high.
I find that the people who say running is boring are people who never pushed themselves to the intensity required for effective exercise/running. They probably ran a mile and got bored. I tell them run at least 5 miles on hilly terrain and tell me if you're bored when you're done.
I find that the people who say running is boring are people who never pushed themselves to the intensity required for effective exercise/running. They probably ran a mile and got bored. I tell them run at least 5 miles on hilly terrain and tell me if you're bored when you're done.
I've certainly been both bored and in pain before (especially when sick). Are you saying that's not possible?
Being uncomfortable/sick is not pain. I'm saying you can't be bored and at the same time, have your heart racing at 200 bpm or gasping for air like you're drowning.
It depends how sick you were but for me running a marathon is pain, getting a fever is just being uncomfortable.
It depends how sick you were but for me running a marathon is pain, getting a fever is just being uncomfortable.
Fever is not usually pain. Headache is pain. Fever ties more into the boredom.
But heart racing and gasping for air sounds more like discomfort to me...
Actually I have better example. I've had highly painful things done to my teeth while very much being bored. And while relatively comfortable outside of the pain.
But heart racing and gasping for air sounds more like discomfort to me...
Actually I have better example. I've had highly painful things done to my teeth while very much being bored. And while relatively comfortable outside of the pain.
The topic is about exercising, and I don't think it means running a marathon. Exercising is about regularity and pain should be considered very seriously.
Exactly people try to train for distance in zone 4. Torturing themselves for zero gain.
I just looked this up. According to this site:
http://wserver.flc.losrios.edu/~willson/fitns304/handouts/he...
Zone 4 is the only zone where you can increase your VO2 max.
Although prior to this thread I've known nothing about the zones, this article is inline with what I did know about cardio exercise: High intensity interval training is the most effective method at increasing your endurance.
Zone 4 is the only zone where you can increase your VO2 max.
Although prior to this thread I've known nothing about the zones, this article is inline with what I did know about cardio exercise: High intensity interval training is the most effective method at increasing your endurance.
I agree that interval training is the way to go here, but it's definitely more nuanced than only targeting VO2max in zone 4. I'm going to talk from the perspective of cycling. This image is a reproduction of a chart from "Training and Racing with a Power Meter": http://lh4.ggpht.com/-bEo_kR-QvlM/UtSoVtZ1PlI/AAAAAAAAC2s/Q9...
You'll get some benefit across almost the entire spectrum almost no matter where you are focusing your efforts. You only see this diverge at the extremes: too easy, and you're just recovering; too hard, and you're only optimizing the systems that allow you to go really hard.
For some reason when I think of HIIT I picture people as trying to do Tabata intervals and you can see from that chart that you sort of run into a problem: you get the same level of benefit as if you just went slowly for a long time (this part is key -- the chart doesn't highlight how long you should expect to spend in the zone to get the benefit, whereas the training plans in the book make it clear that they expect you to sit in zone 2 for 2-4 hours at a stretch. Compare that to the 3-8 minute VO2max intervals for 3-6 repetitions.), while only really optimizing your ability to endure future Tabata intervals.
The real reason to be concerned with any of this at all is to focus your training and build up the appropriate ability without injuring yourself and without hampering your training down the road. Based on the previous chart, it seems like Z4 and Z5 have the most number of pluses, but they also build up the most damage as they are physically and mentally taxing -- you'll build training plans around 3-20 minute intervals in those zones instead, and fill in the gaps with Z2 work or rest.
If you're time-crunched, you may do abbreviated intervals at Z5, decrease the time you spend at Z2, and shift some of your training effort into Z3 instead. But Z3 starts to get hard enough where it impacts your recovery without giving you the most desirable adaptations. The ideal thing to do here is to increase your training time so you can spend more time in Z2, but we don't all have that luxury, unfortunately.
You'll get some benefit across almost the entire spectrum almost no matter where you are focusing your efforts. You only see this diverge at the extremes: too easy, and you're just recovering; too hard, and you're only optimizing the systems that allow you to go really hard.
For some reason when I think of HIIT I picture people as trying to do Tabata intervals and you can see from that chart that you sort of run into a problem: you get the same level of benefit as if you just went slowly for a long time (this part is key -- the chart doesn't highlight how long you should expect to spend in the zone to get the benefit, whereas the training plans in the book make it clear that they expect you to sit in zone 2 for 2-4 hours at a stretch. Compare that to the 3-8 minute VO2max intervals for 3-6 repetitions.), while only really optimizing your ability to endure future Tabata intervals.
The real reason to be concerned with any of this at all is to focus your training and build up the appropriate ability without injuring yourself and without hampering your training down the road. Based on the previous chart, it seems like Z4 and Z5 have the most number of pluses, but they also build up the most damage as they are physically and mentally taxing -- you'll build training plans around 3-20 minute intervals in those zones instead, and fill in the gaps with Z2 work or rest.
If you're time-crunched, you may do abbreviated intervals at Z5, decrease the time you spend at Z2, and shift some of your training effort into Z3 instead. But Z3 starts to get hard enough where it impacts your recovery without giving you the most desirable adaptations. The ideal thing to do here is to increase your training time so you can spend more time in Z2, but we don't all have that luxury, unfortunately.
Wow, very informative.
Increasing VO2 max increases how much power you can develop while remaining in aerobic respiration. This is great for cyclists, or anybody who needs to go literally as fast as possible for a few hours straight. But VO2 max is your "race car" mode, and training Zone 4 and VO2 max does not help your Zone 2.
For mountain climbers (like me), you do use Zone 4, but you want to spend as much time as you can in Zone 2. To achieve that, you have to train Zone 2.
What is Zone 2 good for? Hike with a park ranger. They can very nearly run up a mountain with a pack, without even breaking a sweat.
For mountain climbers (like me), you do use Zone 4, but you want to spend as much time as you can in Zone 2. To achieve that, you have to train Zone 2.
What is Zone 2 good for? Hike with a park ranger. They can very nearly run up a mountain with a pack, without even breaking a sweat.
Well can't argue with that. I get it. But in general, if you train to run, Zone 4 is where people should be training.
wait what's zone 2?
Zone 2 in many training models is typically called the "endurance" zone. It represents the level of effort where you could do something for hours at a time. It is typically defined in terms of heart rate (beats per minute), running pace (minutes / distance), swimming pace (minutes / distance), or cycling power (watts). Usually you'll see something between five and seven zones defined, ranging from an active recovery effort (zone 1) all the way up to a zone for training anaerobic strength.
I've downvoted you as well, but mostly because you're framing your comment as fact, which, according to all these replies, is not the case.
I run regularly up and down steep hills and go cycling ~15 miles at least once a week. I also do bodyweight workouts and do bodyline drills which can consist of keeping a position for 60+ seconds each time.
Out of all of those in the list, running bores me the most. If I'm running just for the cardio, it's boring.
I run regularly up and down steep hills and go cycling ~15 miles at least once a week. I also do bodyweight workouts and do bodyline drills which can consist of keeping a position for 60+ seconds each time.
Out of all of those in the list, running bores me the most. If I'm running just for the cardio, it's boring.
Ok I respond to all comments as fairly and as honestly as I can. This one is just bs. I never framed anything as a fact. If I did I would explicitly say it's a fact and at least reference something legitimate to back it up.
This is just my opinion, which I believe in very strongly. Can I not be voted down for a differing opinion? Psh. Much Thanks doing for that btw.
Additionally you should note that none of the replies, yours included is a fact either. It's just their opinions which I respect even though I don't believe it.
This is just my opinion, which I believe in very strongly. Can I not be voted down for a differing opinion? Psh. Much Thanks doing for that btw.
Additionally you should note that none of the replies, yours included is a fact either. It's just their opinions which I respect even though I don't believe it.
Telling other people what they find boring is not opinion, and rather insulting. That's why you got downvoted.
I'm not intentionally insulting people, but sure I can see why it is insulting. Still, it is an opinion. Tell me that you voted me down for being insulting and I won't call bs on that, this guy said I framed what I said as fact.
The implication that you know the opinions of other people better than they do is more or less the same thing as phrasing your opinions as fact.
Though I haven't personally downvoted you.
Though I haven't personally downvoted you.
I disagree with that. I never implied that, maybe people think I implied that because my strong opinion goes contrary to what they think.
Okay, I'll be more explicit.
You told people they are incapable of boredom while 'really exercising'. You were not talking about whether you were bored. You were telling people what they feel. You were making a factual statement.
It was insulting for you to call people wrong on a factual matter where they have experience and you don't. Then you compounded the problem by arguing about it.
You can't just call something an opinion to deflect criticism.
You told people they are incapable of boredom while 'really exercising'. You were not talking about whether you were bored. You were telling people what they feel. You were making a factual statement.
It was insulting for you to call people wrong on a factual matter where they have experience and you don't. Then you compounded the problem by arguing about it.
You can't just call something an opinion to deflect criticism.
This sounds like exactly what my highschool track coach used to say about [long distance] running.
As a sprinter only for conditioning practice for competitive fencing, I don't know that I agree completely. It is true that in fencing, you have to condition yourself to ignore pain (being stabbed kinda sucks). Also maybe sprinting/fencing isn't as good exercise as long distance running, I have no idea.
It is really fun, and you do sweat a lot.
As a sprinter only for conditioning practice for competitive fencing, I don't know that I agree completely. It is true that in fencing, you have to condition yourself to ignore pain (being stabbed kinda sucks). Also maybe sprinting/fencing isn't as good exercise as long distance running, I have no idea.
It is really fun, and you do sweat a lot.
I tend to reject pain and train by stretching my limits enough to feel smooth but also active. I want workout similar to taichi in mind. When I went back to running it was more pain than pleasure, but after a while it became 50/50. When you forgot you're running and feel like flying over the ground .. I couldn't be further away from a form of torture.
I agree. The pain component can't be totally ignored though. It seems you're just restating my point in a different way.
I used to swim pretty intensely every other day and I remember it being hard exercise but I loved it and never found it boring: you just get into this flow and forget about everything but the water.
Frankly, the hardest part was getting out of the house and just going and getting in the water (especially on cold winter days) but after that it was almost automatic.
In the last three weeks my shortest daily run was six miles. Even on long/fast runs I don't _usually_ feel pain and I absolutely disagree with your sentiment here.
If you run regularly it is no longer painful by any definition of the word. Quite literally I feel no pain from a run, unless I'm pushing myself harder than usual. Running ten miles at an ~eight minute pace would definitely leave me winded, and could strain my legs. Running six miles at ~eight thirty literally does not hurt.
The worst part, from where I'm standing, is the time consuming and boring nature of the task. I've rationalized it away as necessary, but it doesn't get any less repetitive and the time doesn't go by any faster.
If you run regularly it is no longer painful by any definition of the word. Quite literally I feel no pain from a run, unless I'm pushing myself harder than usual. Running ten miles at an ~eight minute pace would definitely leave me winded, and could strain my legs. Running six miles at ~eight thirty literally does not hurt.
The worst part, from where I'm standing, is the time consuming and boring nature of the task. I've rationalized it away as necessary, but it doesn't get any less repetitive and the time doesn't go by any faster.
Well if you trained to the point where you don't feel pain anymore then my point is irrelevant and of course you'll be bored.
Also I think your abilities are outside the spectrum of normal. If you ran 6 miles a day for a week that'd be 42 miles per week. If you look at this article http://www.active.com/health/articles/why-too-much-running-i... 20 miles per week is the recommended sweet spot. I think if you can hit 42 miles per week without accumulating any wear and tear on your body then you're one of those people genetically predisposed to for cardio.
Also I think your abilities are outside the spectrum of normal. If you ran 6 miles a day for a week that'd be 42 miles per week. If you look at this article http://www.active.com/health/articles/why-too-much-running-i... 20 miles per week is the recommended sweet spot. I think if you can hit 42 miles per week without accumulating any wear and tear on your body then you're one of those people genetically predisposed to for cardio.
With that definition, aren't all forms of exercise self-torture?
After all, they all destroy your muscle cells.
After all, they all destroy your muscle cells.
Yeah, all forms of EFFECTIVE exercise are self torture. But I'm not talking about it in the physical sense where they damage your muscle cells. I'm talking about psychological pain where you get tired, out of breath, and your muscles begin to ache a bit.
>
Yeah, all forms of EFFECTIVE exercise are self torture.
It seems effective enough for LaurensBER already, judging by all the benefits he/she lists.
It seems effective enough for LaurensBER already, judging by all the benefits he/she lists.
I got voted down for this comment. Please let me know if you ever ran 10 miles and was totally bored by the experience.
For about three years I was running 4-5 miles three times a week (except for approximately two months in the winter), and I always found it quite boring. Challenging, yes, and sometimes rewarding, but still quite boring.
I ran cross country in high school, running for about an hour 4 to 6 times a week. Extremely boring, pretty much only did it because my parents forced me to do _a_ sport and I didn't want my suckage to hurt a team (I skipped a few grades, and not inflicting this on others was a pretty good diplomatic move).
Unfortunately I can't relate to the responses. It's hard for me to comprehend how you can be bored and in total pain or out of breath at the same time. It's like saying there's a knife in your shoulder and you're still bored...
No long distance runner I have ever met has described running as "total pain".
Several look brighter and clearly feel happier after running 2-4 miles. It's nearly rejuvenating for them.
Unless they are quite literally masochists, I don't think they spend those 2-4 miles in pure misery.
Several look brighter and clearly feel happier after running 2-4 miles. It's nearly rejuvenating for them.
Unless they are quite literally masochists, I don't think they spend those 2-4 miles in pure misery.
You're right poor choice of words I'm just trying to emphasize that there's enough misery to prevent you from being bored.
@benihana
1. By running I mean like staying in Zone 3 for an hour or more. Or Zone 4/5 for a minute or two.
2. You call it discomfort, I call it pain, for effect, probably not appropriate but I hope you didn't vote me down for this.
3. I'm not gonna argue about whether or not people enjoy pain (most don't). Exercise in general involves a number of components that feel good and feel bad but the bad is significantly more explicit then the good. This is not a fact but its a generality that's kind of evident when you see the obesity epidemic sweeping across 1st world countries. The majority of the population generally doesn't like to exercise because it is painful and uncomfortable. I think most people can comprehend this statement and it is not a logical fallacy; It is an evident generality.
Sometimes I see people in runner circles talk about a thing called "runners high" like it's cocaine, totally glossing over evident factors like why most normal won't run 10 miles just to chase a fabled runner's high. The logic here is obvious: the pain is not worth the high to most people.
I can't be sure but I think what's going on with those runners is what's going on here in this thread, a sort of unconscious denial about an obvious generality. -- If weight training doesn't involve any pain, then I can't speak for it. I'm speaking for exercise in general which I believe I am correct.
4. Pain is usually not something that is enjoyed. If you do enjoy it it tends to be something that was learned. Like wine or beer. If that's not the case for you, ok, but I think the general notion is that these things are an "acquired taste" aka "learned," hence the presumption.
And yes I am telling people that they may not really be exercising. I see a lot of people quitting and doing things incorrectly with useless results.
5. Millions may exercise but Billions and billions of more people don't exercise because it's painful and uncomfortable. Are you telling me these groups of people cannot even comprehend one another? I think the average athlete has enough intelligence to comprehend why he is one of the few and why the majority of people on this earth don't exercise. Anecdotal evidence on this thread is nothing compared to anecdotal evidence from the real world.
2. You call it discomfort, I call it pain, for effect, probably not appropriate but I hope you didn't vote me down for this.
3. I'm not gonna argue about whether or not people enjoy pain (most don't). Exercise in general involves a number of components that feel good and feel bad but the bad is significantly more explicit then the good. This is not a fact but its a generality that's kind of evident when you see the obesity epidemic sweeping across 1st world countries. The majority of the population generally doesn't like to exercise because it is painful and uncomfortable. I think most people can comprehend this statement and it is not a logical fallacy; It is an evident generality.
Sometimes I see people in runner circles talk about a thing called "runners high" like it's cocaine, totally glossing over evident factors like why most normal won't run 10 miles just to chase a fabled runner's high. The logic here is obvious: the pain is not worth the high to most people.
I can't be sure but I think what's going on with those runners is what's going on here in this thread, a sort of unconscious denial about an obvious generality. -- If weight training doesn't involve any pain, then I can't speak for it. I'm speaking for exercise in general which I believe I am correct.
4. Pain is usually not something that is enjoyed. If you do enjoy it it tends to be something that was learned. Like wine or beer. If that's not the case for you, ok, but I think the general notion is that these things are an "acquired taste" aka "learned," hence the presumption.
And yes I am telling people that they may not really be exercising. I see a lot of people quitting and doing things incorrectly with useless results.
5. Millions may exercise but Billions and billions of more people don't exercise because it's painful and uncomfortable. Are you telling me these groups of people cannot even comprehend one another? I think the average athlete has enough intelligence to comprehend why he is one of the few and why the majority of people on this earth don't exercise. Anecdotal evidence on this thread is nothing compared to anecdotal evidence from the real world.
I can't say why anyone downvoted you, but reading your comment I noticed a few things:
1. Your use of the term running. You make sweeping generalizations about 'running' and the people who run but you don't even define what 'running' is. Is it long, low intensity work like running more than 10 miles? Is it short, high intensity work like sprints? Is it a simple jog a couple times a week? Is it a hard run? Running is a blanket term for many different exercises and exercise styles.
2. You seem to conflate exercise with 'running.' I hate running, but I really enjoy exercise. I love lifting weights, playing sports, and climbing. I don't ever feel pain when I do any of those unless something is very wrong. Discomfort maybe, but discomfort is not pain.
3. Your whole point is hinged upon a logical fallacy. You say that nobody enjoys exercise because nobody really exercises. If they were really exercising, they'd be in pain constantly, and therefore, since nobody enjoys being in pain (an assumption you made in your post) nobody enjoys exercising. I don't hang with a lot of long distance people, but all the weightlifters I exercise with will tell you if you're in pain, something is seriously seriously wrong.
4. Your presumption throughout the post. Take the last sentence. You say that anyone who enjoys exercise has to learn to enjoy it. What is the point of that sentence? Are you speaking from experience? Are you telling people they're not really exercising? Later in this thread, you say you can't relate to the responses. So why are you making sweeping assumptions about people if you can't relate to things they say?
5. You're empirically wrong. There are a handful of responses already with anecdotal evidence to the contrary of everything you say. Millions of people exercise every day and love it, and nobody disputes that exercise is beneficial. It's really hard to understand where you're coming from.
The post was odd and confusing. It came off as very presumptuous and arrogant - like you know something about exercise no one here could possibly understand. A good number of people who come here exercise regularly and have learned all about it themselves, and know from their own experiences that what you're saying doesn't make much sense.
1. Your use of the term running. You make sweeping generalizations about 'running' and the people who run but you don't even define what 'running' is. Is it long, low intensity work like running more than 10 miles? Is it short, high intensity work like sprints? Is it a simple jog a couple times a week? Is it a hard run? Running is a blanket term for many different exercises and exercise styles.
2. You seem to conflate exercise with 'running.' I hate running, but I really enjoy exercise. I love lifting weights, playing sports, and climbing. I don't ever feel pain when I do any of those unless something is very wrong. Discomfort maybe, but discomfort is not pain.
3. Your whole point is hinged upon a logical fallacy. You say that nobody enjoys exercise because nobody really exercises. If they were really exercising, they'd be in pain constantly, and therefore, since nobody enjoys being in pain (an assumption you made in your post) nobody enjoys exercising. I don't hang with a lot of long distance people, but all the weightlifters I exercise with will tell you if you're in pain, something is seriously seriously wrong.
4. Your presumption throughout the post. Take the last sentence. You say that anyone who enjoys exercise has to learn to enjoy it. What is the point of that sentence? Are you speaking from experience? Are you telling people they're not really exercising? Later in this thread, you say you can't relate to the responses. So why are you making sweeping assumptions about people if you can't relate to things they say?
5. You're empirically wrong. There are a handful of responses already with anecdotal evidence to the contrary of everything you say. Millions of people exercise every day and love it, and nobody disputes that exercise is beneficial. It's really hard to understand where you're coming from.
The post was odd and confusing. It came off as very presumptuous and arrogant - like you know something about exercise no one here could possibly understand. A good number of people who come here exercise regularly and have learned all about it themselves, and know from their own experiences that what you're saying doesn't make much sense.
I experienced this on the extreme that I immediately freed of my depressive thoughts upon doing some push ups, that I started working out regularly. I know that it's a fact by experience.
Press release and links here: http://ki.se/en/news/how-physical-exercise-protects-the-brai...
(and previous post of the press release and links here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8385525)
(and previous post of the press release and links here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8385525)
I learned that's true thanks to this app http://human.co and their simple concept: move 30mins or more every day to stay healthy (the #daily30), inspired by "23 and 1/2 hours: What is the single best thing we can do for our health?" by D. Mike Evans
Exercise, and in particular 30 minutes or more, every day, has been successful as one of the best forms of preventive medicine out there. It's highly effective against progression in depression, anxiety, knee arthritis, frank diabetes, and many other illnesses. One of the best videos that illustrates the benefits is 23 1/2 by Dr. Mike Evans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUaInS6HIGo
We based our app on the notion of moving at least 30 minutes every day. We've had very positive feedback from people that cope with depression and/or anxiety. Would love your feedback: http://human.co
We based our app on the notion of moving at least 30 minutes every day. We've had very positive feedback from people that cope with depression and/or anxiety. Would love your feedback: http://human.co
Excerpt:
So the scientists looked for which processes were being most notably intensified in their PGC-1alpha1-rich mice. They found one in particular, involving a substance called kynurenine that accumulates in human and animal bloodstreams after stress. Kynurenine can pass the blood-brain barrier and, in animal studies, has been shown to cause damaging inflammation in the brain, leading, it is thought, to depression.
But in the mice with high levels of PGC-1alpha1, the kynurenine produced by stress was set upon almost immediately by another protein expressed in response to signals from the PGC-1alpha1. This protein changed the kynurenine, breaking it into its component parts, which, interestingly, could not pass the blood-brain barrier.
I imagine this is hardly the whole story, but it is interesting that they were able to identify a specific component. Something else that I would think is relevant is that the lymphatic system is dramatically sped up during exercise. It is pumped by you working your muscles rather than by your circulatory system, even though it is kind of part of your circulatory system (because lymph is basically fluid from the blood but with major blood components removed). (Though the brain has a separate mechanism: It moves lymph when you sleep.)
So the scientists looked for which processes were being most notably intensified in their PGC-1alpha1-rich mice. They found one in particular, involving a substance called kynurenine that accumulates in human and animal bloodstreams after stress. Kynurenine can pass the blood-brain barrier and, in animal studies, has been shown to cause damaging inflammation in the brain, leading, it is thought, to depression.
But in the mice with high levels of PGC-1alpha1, the kynurenine produced by stress was set upon almost immediately by another protein expressed in response to signals from the PGC-1alpha1. This protein changed the kynurenine, breaking it into its component parts, which, interestingly, could not pass the blood-brain barrier.
I imagine this is hardly the whole story, but it is interesting that they were able to identify a specific component. Something else that I would think is relevant is that the lymphatic system is dramatically sped up during exercise. It is pumped by you working your muscles rather than by your circulatory system, even though it is kind of part of your circulatory system (because lymph is basically fluid from the blood but with major blood components removed). (Though the brain has a separate mechanism: It moves lymph when you sleep.)
I'm glad to see the article, but if you're interested in the effects of physical exercise over the brain in general - not only depression, but brain development, neuronal growth, memory retention, degenerative brain diseases - you should read "Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain" [1].
It's a great book, summarizing all the studies and discoveries around brain health and the link with body biochemistry and exercise over the past 50 years. Not the typical common wisdom of "exercise is good for you", but a more serious and deep analysis of why it is good, and what exactly it does to your brain, at a biochemical level.
As a person that always knew how much exercise is important for the body - but always hated exercising - this book gave a reason to pause and re-think my priorities.
If you care about your brain, read at least the sample chapters and see if you like it.
[1] http://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-B...
It's a great book, summarizing all the studies and discoveries around brain health and the link with body biochemistry and exercise over the past 50 years. Not the typical common wisdom of "exercise is good for you", but a more serious and deep analysis of why it is good, and what exactly it does to your brain, at a biochemical level.
As a person that always knew how much exercise is important for the body - but always hated exercising - this book gave a reason to pause and re-think my priorities.
If you care about your brain, read at least the sample chapters and see if you like it.
[1] http://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-B...
As a person who always hated exercising, too, I can tell you that it's just a matter of starting and then stick to it until "something" clicks and makes you crave exercise like you crave food or sleep.
If knowing what's the neurological basis that makes exercise so useful for our body, is what keeps you going, that's great. But really, any reason will do.
My reason: proving to myself that I have a stronger will strength than I used to think and believe for so many years.
When I don't exercise (for me that means also practicing Ashtanga Yoga) for like a week because of external reasons, I experienced a deep slash of depression -- real depression, like seeing everything black, totally unmotivated self-loathing and so forth.
Luckily, it's just a matter of getting a good hour of intense excercise and the day after I'm back on track. There's definitively something chemical going on there.
Thanks for the book suggestion
Thanks for the book suggestion
> When I don't exercise (for me that means also practicing Ashtanga Yoga) for like a week because of external reasons, I experienced a deep slash of depression
Yep, that's the flip side. It helps fight depression, but it also has an addictive side to it. Fortunately it's really not as time consuming as you'd think, but taking a whole week off is almost out of the question
Yep, that's the flip side. It helps fight depression, but it also has an addictive side to it. Fortunately it's really not as time consuming as you'd think, but taking a whole week off is almost out of the question
Can anyone comment if just walking counts for exercising?
Depends on how fit you are, I guess.
I need to train at higher intensity to "feel" it as excercise.
nonetheless, it's a great way for people to start, if it's not a solution for the lazy, like "hey I walked thirty minutes home from work, now I deserve my sofa"
Yes it does.
http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/guide/walking-for-exer...
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/fitness/in-depth/wa...
If you're particularly overweight or have joint/back or other health issues you may want to consult your physician about how to improve past a slower paced walk. But if your joints and heart are otherwise healthy, it's pretty good exercise for getting in better shape, losing/maintaining weight, and for getting to spend some time outside in the sun and fresh air.
http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/guide/walking-for-exer...
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/fitness/in-depth/wa...
If you're particularly overweight or have joint/back or other health issues you may want to consult your physician about how to improve past a slower paced walk. But if your joints and heart are otherwise healthy, it's pretty good exercise for getting in better shape, losing/maintaining weight, and for getting to spend some time outside in the sun and fresh air.
Does the book recommend a specific kind of exercise? What I mean is does it say aerobic or strength training or something is key?
It shows that exercise is great for the brain. Any exercise. Of course, there's different kinds of neurochemical reactions to aerobic vs. strength training, but in the end both have positive effects.
If you try to work out much when tired and stressed you're just going to increase the odds of getting sick. The article makes the mistake of suggesting exercise when already stressed. I think the point here is that fitness is protective. It's too late if you're already feeling a bit burned out. The thing to do in that case is restful relaxation.
Source? I don't think that's true at all.
> Scientists have also known that exercise seems to cushion against depression. Working out somehow makes people and animals emotionally resilient,
Many people translate this to mean "exercise can treat depression".
Here's one meta analysis that suggests exercise is a weak treatment for depression.
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for...
> Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression.
But also
> The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive.
> Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies.
> Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies.
I'd like to see better research that controls for things like social networks (a person might be more likely to go jogging with friends than alone, for example) and other confounding factors.