What the Heck Is Happening at Apple?(cringely.com)
cringely.com
What the Heck Is Happening at Apple?
http://www.cringely.com/2016/10/31/heck-happened-apple/
534 comments
I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone. They're not going backwards because they think they're right, not because they think they're wrong but don't want to admit it.
And the reason they aren't cutting prices is likely because they're more profitable with prices as they are, not because they're afraid of admitting a mistake.
And the reason they aren't cutting prices is likely because they're more profitable with prices as they are, not because they're afraid of admitting a mistake.
"I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone. They're not going backwards because they think they're right, not because they think they're wrong but don't want to admit it."
I believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware - and has been from day one.
However, I have never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.
Contrary to all expectation and experience, everyone in the world got together on one little thing - establishing the global standard for USB charging - and the world was actually a very slightly better place. And apple shat all over that, and continues to do so, in order to make (on average) an extra $10 for every iphone sold.
So fuck that and fuck their iphone.
I believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware - and has been from day one.
However, I have never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.
Contrary to all expectation and experience, everyone in the world got together on one little thing - establishing the global standard for USB charging - and the world was actually a very slightly better place. And apple shat all over that, and continues to do so, in order to make (on average) an extra $10 for every iphone sold.
So fuck that and fuck their iphone.
You had me up until the "$10 for every phone sold" bit. Do you seriously believe Apple is happy to willingly sabotage sales of their tens-of-billions cash cow to make a few tens of millions on accessories?
They stuck with 30-pin because it was something their customer base had already bought into, and they didn't want to force a change. They went with Lightning because, let's be honest, micro-USB is shit — every micro-USB device I've owned has had the connector fail within two years. Lightning can handle 12W of power, micro-USB 9W. Lightning is reversible. Lightning has no moving parts on the connector, prone to breaking (or worse) grabbing onto your $700 device with a death grip and bring nigh-unremovable.
It would be great if they switched now to USB-C. They're clearly in the works on that, but didn't want to make a connector change on their phones after only two revs.
They stuck with 30-pin because it was something their customer base had already bought into, and they didn't want to force a change. They went with Lightning because, let's be honest, micro-USB is shit — every micro-USB device I've owned has had the connector fail within two years. Lightning can handle 12W of power, micro-USB 9W. Lightning is reversible. Lightning has no moving parts on the connector, prone to breaking (or worse) grabbing onto your $700 device with a death grip and bring nigh-unremovable.
It would be great if they switched now to USB-C. They're clearly in the works on that, but didn't want to make a connector change on their phones after only two revs.
In my recollection a micro-USB has never failed. If it has failed it wasn't an issue because I've a heap of them lying around and could just grab another one.
I have had a number of lightning connectors fail on me. They're designed to fail. Pressure-held copper edge-connectors for devices went out with the Commodore 64's user port.
The fact that it is reversible is convenient but hardly worthy of consideration as a feature alongside "ubiquity" "cost" and "durability".
The old iPhone connector had it's limitations but it was established and really quite solid in my experience. Micro USB perhaps has limited features technically, and is ugly, but I don't believe the advantages that Apple presents for lightning outweigh the drawbacks.
As an interface it has a couple of niche use-cases that it fulfils but it is a step backwards in terms of connector design and in fact has a "worse" connector than the two other interfaces it purports to improve upon.
Props to Apple for padding out their profit margin and all that but they can absolutely go and shite if they think I'm going to swallow their "better connector" bullshit.
And they expect me to use it instead of a headphones jack now as well!
I have had a number of lightning connectors fail on me. They're designed to fail. Pressure-held copper edge-connectors for devices went out with the Commodore 64's user port.
The fact that it is reversible is convenient but hardly worthy of consideration as a feature alongside "ubiquity" "cost" and "durability".
The old iPhone connector had it's limitations but it was established and really quite solid in my experience. Micro USB perhaps has limited features technically, and is ugly, but I don't believe the advantages that Apple presents for lightning outweigh the drawbacks.
As an interface it has a couple of niche use-cases that it fulfils but it is a step backwards in terms of connector design and in fact has a "worse" connector than the two other interfaces it purports to improve upon.
Props to Apple for padding out their profit margin and all that but they can absolutely go and shite if they think I'm going to swallow their "better connector" bullshit.
And they expect me to use it instead of a headphones jack now as well!
Quick Charge 2.0 via microUSB can throw a lot more power down the wire and charges nice and quickly. Plus that same wire can plug into a USB port on anything and charge.
I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).
I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).
> I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).
I'm always surprised by folks talking about their non-failing micro-USB ports, as if that somehow discounts other people's devices that have failed.
I'm always surprised by folks talking about their non-failing micro-USB ports, as if that somehow discounts other people's devices that have failed.
I don't doubt that some fail. But so many who have had them fail make it seem like the ports are absurdly fragile and fail for everyone all the time.
I don't understand the obsession with USB charging. This makes no sense at all to me. How would my life be materially better if my phone charged over USB? My last phone charged over USB and I can't say it felt better.
At this point, you might be tempted to claim that I would be able to use the same cables as other devices. To this, I'll point to the ongoing switch to USB-C and note that's you're buying new cables anyway.
Micro USB was a shitty plug. USB-C is better, but you can actually thank Apple for that, because it's a reaction to the Lightning plug.
At this point, you might be tempted to claim that I would be able to use the same cables as other devices. To this, I'll point to the ongoing switch to USB-C and note that's you're buying new cables anyway.
Micro USB was a shitty plug. USB-C is better, but you can actually thank Apple for that, because it's a reaction to the Lightning plug.
Come visit my company gym, we have 20+ perfectly good treadmills that all have outdated iPhone chargers. The best part about micro USB was that it was absolutely ubiquitous. If my phone was dying at a friend's place or at my neighborhood coffee shop chances are I could charge my phone.
My least favorite thing about my 5x is that it's USB-C. I regret upgrading before USB-C became more commonplace.
My least favorite thing about my 5x is that it's USB-C. I regret upgrading before USB-C became more commonplace.
I don't know how this is an issue for Apple. If those treadmills were micro USB, they'd be trending rapidly toward obsolescence anyway.
I'll note that almost everyone who complains about lightning seems to not be an Apple user. Apple users seem fine with the horror of not sharing cables with Android devices. Apple users are also pretty happy that random hotels and whatnot have docks for their phones.
I'll note that almost everyone who complains about lightning seems to not be an Apple user. Apple users seem fine with the horror of not sharing cables with Android devices. Apple users are also pretty happy that random hotels and whatnot have docks for their phones.
> I don't know how this is an issue for Apple
Oh, it's absolutely not. Apple makes a killing selling adapters. It's the users who get screwed.
Oh, it's absolutely not. Apple makes a killing selling adapters. It's the users who get screwed.
I don't know. I bought a lightning cable for my office a week ago for maybe $6. A quick search on Amazon shows an equivalent USB-C cable is actually more if I want to buy from a company with a name I recognize.
What are you talking about? Direct from Apple it's $20, on Amazon both will run you $5-$10. But that's not the point anyways -- I'm still using a micro-usb cable that I bought before Lightning was even released. I've had to spend $0 on proprietary nonsense.
Also, another point: I have a medical device and a Kindle which both charge via micro-USB, meaning I only had to bring one charger when I traveled. Huge benefit.
Also, another point: I have a medical device and a Kindle which both charge via micro-USB, meaning I only had to bring one charger when I traveled. Huge benefit.
So don't buy direct from Apple. An AmazonBasics lightning cable is 6.50 right now. The cheapest brand I recognize for USB-C is Anker at 7. So no, USB-C is not meaningfully more expensive but neither are iPhone users getting ripped off unless they choose to.
Apple customers aren't getting "screwed" as you claimed.
If you're still using micro USB, I hate to break the news, but you will absolutely be buying some new cables in the future.
Apple customers aren't getting "screwed" as you claimed.
If you're still using micro USB, I hate to break the news, but you will absolutely be buying some new cables in the future.
one charger for many devices beats one charger per device. period.
Apple obviously knows this, as they just moved their macbook to USB-C.
now i can charge my android phone with the same cable as my macbook, android is more compatible with the new macbook than the iphone is; thats an embarrassment
Apple obviously knows this, as they just moved their macbook to USB-C.
now i can charge my android phone with the same cable as my macbook, android is more compatible with the new macbook than the iphone is; thats an embarrassment
> android is more compatible with the new macbook than the iphone is
This is a baseless claim. They happen to use the same connector. iOS has a number of far more meaningful integration points with OS X, including iCloud and Messages.
This is a baseless claim. They happen to use the same connector. iOS has a number of far more meaningful integration points with OS X, including iCloud and Messages.
Right, and I'm unhappy about it whether I can get a good deal on Amazon or not. You asked why people liked USB so much, that is why.
This chunk of the thread was addressing your comment about how "Apple makes a killing selling adapters. It's the users who get screwed." You being unhappy about Apple using a proprietary connection doesn't mean the cables or adapters are actually pricy.
In two years, you're going to be swapping out your micro-USB cables while I'm using a lightning cable I bought before USB-C was even released. What's your point?
ricksplat(1)
Apple makes hundreds of billions from iPhone sales. They make probably tens of millions from cables.
Suggesting they'd knowingly sabotage #1 for #2 is absurd.
Suggesting they'd knowingly sabotage #1 for #2 is absurd.
They're making a bet that the sales lost from customers who are willing to switch to Android is less than the profit made from proprietary hardware, and they're probably right.
I think you're going to need a lot more evidence to essentially make the claim that bean-counters have taken over Apple.
Clearly many of these decisions have been popular. I'd even wager that this an unprofitable decision for them, in the short term. This might sound counter to my original assertion that they're sabotaging billions of iPhone revenues for millions of accessory revenues, but it isn't.
There's a third thing they're optimizing for, and I think they're willing to sacrifice both of those revenues for it. USB-C is the "right" thing forward. Bluetooth is the "right" thing forward. They're trying to push the industry towards these things (whether or not it's a good idea is something you can agree or disagree with), and they're willing to sacrifice earnings if they believe make that future come sooner.
Happened with floppy drives, happened with CD drives, and it's happening now with USB-C and the removal of the audio jack. For better or worse, the bean-counters have never been in charge at Apple, and that's been one of their greatest long-term strengths.
Clearly many of these decisions have been popular. I'd even wager that this an unprofitable decision for them, in the short term. This might sound counter to my original assertion that they're sabotaging billions of iPhone revenues for millions of accessory revenues, but it isn't.
There's a third thing they're optimizing for, and I think they're willing to sacrifice both of those revenues for it. USB-C is the "right" thing forward. Bluetooth is the "right" thing forward. They're trying to push the industry towards these things (whether or not it's a good idea is something you can agree or disagree with), and they're willing to sacrifice earnings if they believe make that future come sooner.
Happened with floppy drives, happened with CD drives, and it's happening now with USB-C and the removal of the audio jack. For better or worse, the bean-counters have never been in charge at Apple, and that's been one of their greatest long-term strengths.
"If those treadmills were micro USB, they'd be trending rapidly toward obsolescence anyway."
Where "trending towards obsolescence" means "has realistically at least three years of non-negligible use for Micro USB", versus "was replaced by its manufacturer just over four years ago" (September 2012).
I'm yet to see gym equipment (a niche example) with Lightning, it's only 30 pin connectors.
Where "trending towards obsolescence" means "has realistically at least three years of non-negligible use for Micro USB", versus "was replaced by its manufacturer just over four years ago" (September 2012).
I'm yet to see gym equipment (a niche example) with Lightning, it's only 30 pin connectors.
Oh, FFS. 30-pin was around for what, 15-odd years? You're blaming them for literally nothing more than "the plug changing" because it just happened to be within the past few years.
If they'd gone with micro-USB, you would have the exact same complaint two or three years from now. That micro-USB devices still have 2 or 3 more years left of ubiquity is just a function of this exact moment in time, and you could have said that three years ago for 30-pin too.
If they'd gone with micro-USB, you would have the exact same complaint two or three years from now. That micro-USB devices still have 2 or 3 more years left of ubiquity is just a function of this exact moment in time, and you could have said that three years ago for 30-pin too.
30 pin was introduced in 2003, it was finally replaced with Lightning in 2014 and thereby deprecated from use.
That's a 11 year run.
I bet those treadmills are not even that old yet.
That's a 11 year run.
I bet those treadmills are not even that old yet.
Well, Micro-USB was announced in 2007. So by the time USB-C really takes over, it will have had maybe a 10-year run. So that's no better for compatibility life.
I completely agree with you. Micro-USB has already shown that it is not the best standard moving forward, it is already at it's end as manufacturers are replacing the port on devices with a USB-C port instead.
So let's call it. Micro-USB, 2007 -> 2016 (9 years). It had less of a run than the 30 pin dock connector!
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I still have USB-B, USB-Mini and USB-Micro, and USB3-Micro-B devices... some were built even after USB-Micro was available, yet they still use USB Mini (which in most cases is a lot more sturdy than Micro). I have a ton of different cables for different devices because there was no real standardization until USB-C very very recently.
Why was the same vocal crowd not out when manufacturers switched from Mini to Micro and everyone had to buy all new cables?
With USB3 there is also a USB3-TypeB connector, which is not even backwards compatible with USB-TypeB...
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/usb_3_explained.html
So let's call it. Micro-USB, 2007 -> 2016 (9 years). It had less of a run than the 30 pin dock connector!
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I still have USB-B, USB-Mini and USB-Micro, and USB3-Micro-B devices... some were built even after USB-Micro was available, yet they still use USB Mini (which in most cases is a lot more sturdy than Micro). I have a ton of different cables for different devices because there was no real standardization until USB-C very very recently.
Why was the same vocal crowd not out when manufacturers switched from Mini to Micro and everyone had to buy all new cables?
With USB3 there is also a USB3-TypeB connector, which is not even backwards compatible with USB-TypeB...
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/usb_3_explained.html
Exactly. Could you imagine buying a home if the electrical outlet wasn't standardized? (In the US). Just ask the rest of the world how frustrating it is when every country has their own plug.
Homes tend to have a longer lifespan than phones.
True, but the people living in them don't. People in the US move, and they move a lot.
Please use the downvote button for comments that are not relevant to the discussion, not as the "I disagree" button. We aren't reddit. My point is factual, 26 million Americans move every year. The challenges and hassels would be comparable if we had different plugs for all our appliances and electronics are analogous to the problems we have with different standards for charging ports on our cell phones, just a larger scale.
Please use the downvote button for comments that are not relevant to the discussion, not as the "I disagree" button. We aren't reddit. My point is factual, 26 million Americans move every year. The challenges and hassels would be comparable if we had different plugs for all our appliances and electronics are analogous to the problems we have with different standards for charging ports on our cell phones, just a larger scale.
That's not relevant to the negative impact of custom electrical outlets. New residents don't alleviate the hassle of, say, ungrounded plugs.
As analogies go, try to go for the spirit of the comparison, not the specifics.
Imagine what the market for appliances would look like if we had to accommodate for different outlets. Imagine if your kitchen aid stand mixer you bought for 600 dollars wasn't compatible with the apartment complex you wanted to move into. Or your iron, or your tv, or your charger for your laptop, or your hair dryer.
Imagine what the market for appliances would look like if we had to accommodate for different outlets. Imagine if your kitchen aid stand mixer you bought for 600 dollars wasn't compatible with the apartment complex you wanted to move into. Or your iron, or your tv, or your charger for your laptop, or your hair dryer.
It's a bad analogy, though. For one, USB isn't very standardized either. There are many USB standards and we're in the midst of a transition from Micro USB to USB-C that will create the exact same compatibility problem for at least a few years as Micro-USB and Lightning. Before Micro-USB we had mini-USB. None of these are even remotely backwards compatible. Meanwhile we've been using the same basic electrical outlet for decades, and it's backwards compatible with the one we used for decades before that.
Also, my oven is actually an entirely different plug from my TV, and my dryer is different still. My lightbulbs connect through a totally different interface that doesn't even look like a plug! I actually seem to be doing okay with that.
Also, my oven is actually an entirely different plug from my TV, and my dryer is different still. My lightbulbs connect through a totally different interface that doesn't even look like a plug! I actually seem to be doing okay with that.
You are picking the extremes to show why my analogy isn't good, which is unfair. You don't move your oven with you when you move, and washer/dryer is rare, but 220 volt outlets are standardized in the US as well. If you are moving your washer and dryer with you, and oven, the place you are moving to will have standardized 220v plugs. There is a physical limit on how much electricty certain plugs can handle. The bulk of the consumer and kitchen appliances you take with you use the same plug. Micro-usb is pretty much ubiquitous for the vast majority of non-Iphones. The point is because of Apple continuing to "move us forward" we will never have something to standardize around.
The best approach is to just have USB sockets and let the user supply the cable.
I don't care about USB charging. What I do care about is not having to carry an awful dongle to listen to music. Been there, done that. And, I care about not having to charge my headphones before I listen to music. People might say I should just leave the dongle on my headphones. I lived through that already with an Android phone years ago, and it sucked.
That's a perfectly valid criticism. I think ditching the headphone jack, while having little effect on me personally, isn't a great move. At the same time, Apple has a long history of ditching compatibility early (floppy drive, cd drive, vga, etc) and with generally good effect long term, so I'm not sure that they actually made the wrong decision here.
Except that (as I recall) the floppy drive was completely obsolete when they did that, so almost no one cared. And the CD drive was not very painful either. The story is completely different for the headphone jack. It is not in the least obsolete, and it being missing is a huge pain for a lot of people.
It was a completely bonehead move on Apple's part IMHO. I know they had their reasons for doing it, but I still think it was a big mistake.
It was a completely bonehead move on Apple's part IMHO. I know they had their reasons for doing it, but I still think it was a big mistake.
My blackberry has micro AND mini usb. I live like a king. A king who doesn't carry a charger but whose phone is kept charged.
> never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.
I reached that conclusion over the "can't install apps without the manufacturer's permission" thing. I've always been surprised more developers didn't feel the same way.
I reached that conclusion over the "can't install apps without the manufacturer's permission" thing. I've always been surprised more developers didn't feel the same way.
For what it's worth this was (and is) my red line that prevents me from ever buying an iPhone. That's one person who agrees with you at least!
It's a technical crowd here - you can install apps without using the App Store and it's not particularly difficult either.
Well, I can (or I could on a personal one, as opposed to the work-supplied one I carry). I like being able to install software from outside of an app store without modifying my firmware, worrying about updating my device, losing my warranty, opening up large security holes, etc.
Reaching outside of the walled garden isn't hard, but there are more things to consider compared to installing an apk on Android.
Reaching outside of the walled garden isn't hard, but there are more things to consider compared to installing an apk on Android.
It's an ideological complaint, not a technical one.
Not being able to install apps is a nuisance; not being able to distribute apps for others to install is a deal-breaker, but the main thing is that I'm afraid of our world becoming a place where walled gardens are the typical model for consumer electronics.
Not being able to install apps is a nuisance; not being able to distribute apps for others to install is a deal-breaker, but the main thing is that I'm afraid of our world becoming a place where walled gardens are the typical model for consumer electronics.
Meanwhile, everyone is complaining that Apple just released a laptop that standardizes on USB for all IO and charging.
That's because magsafe is magical, and they removed all the other ports. I have heard nobody complain about the charging situation on macbooks; GP's point is specifically about cell phones.
> That's because magsafe is magical, and they removed all the other ports.
In fairness, there are two huge new benefits to their new approach:
* You can charge on either the left or the right side. This reduces cable strain.
* If the cable breaks, you can swap it for another (cheap) USB-C cable, without having to buy another power brick.
There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you.
For me, who's had several frayed chargers over the years due to cable strain, I really like their new approach.
(Note: there's a legitimate argument against Apple here too... I've heard that the reason Magsafe chargers are so susceptible to fraying is because they don't use PVC, and instead use a more 'environmentally-friendly' plastic, which is much weaker. They could still use more substantial strain relief regardless, but I'd guess they have aesthetic arguments against that, which is a silly reason for something so important. I'm not sure how much truth there is to this however.)
In fairness, there are two huge new benefits to their new approach:
* You can charge on either the left or the right side. This reduces cable strain.
* If the cable breaks, you can swap it for another (cheap) USB-C cable, without having to buy another power brick.
There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you.
For me, who's had several frayed chargers over the years due to cable strain, I really like their new approach.
(Note: there's a legitimate argument against Apple here too... I've heard that the reason Magsafe chargers are so susceptible to fraying is because they don't use PVC, and instead use a more 'environmentally-friendly' plastic, which is much weaker. They could still use more substantial strain relief regardless, but I'd guess they have aesthetic arguments against that, which is a silly reason for something so important. I'm not sure how much truth there is to this however.)
"There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you."
Yeah, that is a pretty weak argument :) The MagSafe works not by working (directly) against the strength of the magnet, but by the lever action of the connector eccentrically against the body. You can try this yourself by trying to pull the MagSafe away straight on compared to at a slight angle. Also, existing MagSafe is used with MBA, which are lighter than the new MBP. If that were really a problem, we'd already be seeing it.
I do hope that there are good third-party MagSafe replacements out there. The reviews of the Griffin BreakSafe are mixed. https://www.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromeboo...
Or maybe Apple will come out with one in the future. I would love to know more about how Apple arrived at the decision to not provide some sort of MagSafe equivalent feature.
Yeah, that is a pretty weak argument :) The MagSafe works not by working (directly) against the strength of the magnet, but by the lever action of the connector eccentrically against the body. You can try this yourself by trying to pull the MagSafe away straight on compared to at a slight angle. Also, existing MagSafe is used with MBA, which are lighter than the new MBP. If that were really a problem, we'd already be seeing it.
I do hope that there are good third-party MagSafe replacements out there. The reviews of the Griffin BreakSafe are mixed. https://www.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromeboo...
Or maybe Apple will come out with one in the future. I would love to know more about how Apple arrived at the decision to not provide some sort of MagSafe equivalent feature.
Also regarding Magsafe, I'm trying to remember the last time I kicked a cable that would have otherwise sent my laptop flying and… I can't.
I think the difference now is that laptop batteries last a hell of a lot longer than they used to. So many people have a fixed charging location (e.g., a desk) and spend a lot less time in some place with a cable precariously stretched across the room to reach a couch or w/e.
Just a personal theory, maybe not true for others.
I think the difference now is that laptop batteries last a hell of a lot longer than they used to. So many people have a fixed charging location (e.g., a desk) and spend a lot less time in some place with a cable precariously stretched across the room to reach a couch or w/e.
Just a personal theory, maybe not true for others.
No kids or pets, clearly.
I don't, but even then you would need to: have kids/pets and work the majority of the day around them while not at a fixed desk. If you work from a fixed desk, the cable is much more likely to be in a location where it won't be pulled. If you charge all day, and only use it intermittently from a sofa, you don't need the cable.
That's a market that exists, sure. Is it a big market? I doubt it.
That's a market that exists, sure. Is it a big market? I doubt it.
The number of dads and moms that leave work early to pick up their kids at 3pm who then have to catch up on work in the evening in the family room (on the couch, at the dinner table) with their kids riding the dog around the aforementioned couch or dinner table is huge.
You're missing the part where the laptops last essentially all day. If the laptop's been charging, they're not going to need a cable.
"Also regarding Magsafe, I'm trying to remember the last time I kicked a cable that would have otherwise sent my laptop flying and… I can't."
I can't either. A this point it's more the convenience of being able to pick up and go without needing to unplug the machine, and one I'll miss when I eventually get a new machine. That said, it's human nature not to remember things that don't happen.
I can't either. A this point it's more the convenience of being able to pick up and go without needing to unplug the machine, and one I'll miss when I eventually get a new machine. That said, it's human nature not to remember things that don't happen.
Apple's theory on removing MagSafe is that their laptops now provide enough working time, and charge fast enough, that it is rare that people will need to work while plugged in. This is clearly influenced by their experience with iPhone and iPad. It's also why they felt fine with silly-looking charge orientations for their mouse and pencil.
Is it wrong? We'll see. I think a lot of people work with their laptops plugged in as a matter of habit rather than necessity. That doesn't make it wrong, though.
Is it wrong? We'll see. I think a lot of people work with their laptops plugged in as a matter of habit rather than necessity. That doesn't make it wrong, though.
People haven't complained about it because they grade Apple on a curve.
Apple doesn't use a shitty micro-USB plug? End of the world. Laptop manufacturers use a cornucopia of power plugs that change basically all the time? Crickets.
Apple doesn't use a shitty micro-USB plug? End of the world. Laptop manufacturers use a cornucopia of power plugs that change basically all the time? Crickets.
Nobody's complaining about that, but about the removal of all other options.
And well, many many other problems with that new thing that are entirely unrelated to USB.
And well, many many other problems with that new thing that are entirely unrelated to USB.
Good to know they are following Chromebook's lead.
The lightening connector is so much better than micro-USB that it's really hard to fault them for that. But I imagine even the iPhone will go USB-C in the next iteration.
I can't imagine that happening. They'd piss off all the customers that bought lightning accessories, lose control over the connector, and get what in return?
Apple's long history of port and drive removal demonstrates that pissing off customers is not a prime concern. Lost licensing revenue might bother them though.
They seem happy to do this if they think there is value. I'm not sure what the value of USB-C is on the iPhone. The negatives are pretty obvious. The positive mostly seems to be that they can share cables with Android phones, which I cannot imagine is something execs at Apple care about.
Someone else raised an interesting point about docks. The lightning connection is designed to be strong enough to support a phone in a doc. I'm pretty sure this is not a design consideration for USB-C given how no one seems to care about Android docks.
Someone else raised an interesting point about docks. The lightning connection is designed to be strong enough to support a phone in a doc. I'm pretty sure this is not a design consideration for USB-C given how no one seems to care about Android docks.
You can hold your phone upside down connected to the lightning connector -- it's really quite impressive. USB connectors are much more fiddly.
The advantage of USB-C isn't so much in physical connection but the actual capabilities of the interface. Lightning isn't very powerful by comparison.
The advantage of USB-C isn't so much in physical connection but the actual capabilities of the interface. Lightning isn't very powerful by comparison.
Holding your phone upside down isn't an interesting test. That's just the holding power of the plug. More interesting and relevant is whether you can hold the phone at an angle, which is what a dock does. This puts a lot of stress on both the connector and the phone's jack. I would expect Micro-USB to fall apart from this abuse. I'd don't know about USB-C but don't have high hopes.
USB Type C seems to be much sturdier than microUSB. The metal sleeve has tighter tolerance and larger area. Can easily hold phone upside down. Should be able to support phone by itself. Problem is more taking more force to remove from dock or cable.
> it's really quite impressive.
It is? I've been charging my Moto G for a few months like that.
It is? I've been charging my Moto G for a few months like that.
> I'm not sure what the value of USB-C is on the iPhone.
Ridiculously fast charging, plus the ability to use the same charger for both your laptop and your phone.
Being able to consolidate all the chargers I own is an unbelievably exciting promise. That's only an option for me because I use an Android phone.
Ridiculously fast charging, plus the ability to use the same charger for both your laptop and your phone.
Being able to consolidate all the chargers I own is an unbelievably exciting promise. That's only an option for me because I use an Android phone.
> Ridiculously fast charging
How much faster are we talking? I haven't seen any numbers with this claim, nor any justification. There are fast charging systems on the market already with Micro-USB. Qualcomm says their quick-charge solution (used in the new Pixel phones) works with A, Micro, C and others.
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon/quick-charge/fa...
> plus the ability to use the same charger for both your laptop and your phone.
I'm not sure that's really all that compelling. It's nice, but I don't think it's nearly as nice as, say, my dock working.
How much faster are we talking? I haven't seen any numbers with this claim, nor any justification. There are fast charging systems on the market already with Micro-USB. Qualcomm says their quick-charge solution (used in the new Pixel phones) works with A, Micro, C and others.
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon/quick-charge/fa...
> plus the ability to use the same charger for both your laptop and your phone.
I'm not sure that's really all that compelling. It's nice, but I don't think it's nearly as nice as, say, my dock working.
The Pixel doesn't use Qualcomm's proprietary QuickCharge but standard USB Power Delivery. It can negotiate charging at 9V, 2A (18W). Legacy USB can charge 5V, 2.4A (12W), and regular Type C can charge at 3A (15W). Scaling with power, 15W is 25% faster than USB and 18W is 50% faster. The higher voltage is supposed to charge empty batteries faster.
The iPad Pro seems to support quick charging with the Lightning to USB-C cable and MacBook 29W USB PD adapter. And charges about twice as fast (2.5 hr vs 5 hr).
The iPad Pro seems to support quick charging with the Lightning to USB-C cable and MacBook 29W USB PD adapter. And charges about twice as fast (2.5 hr vs 5 hr).
My mistake. I was reading an article that claimed that the Pixel was using Qualcomm's tech.
I don't understand this argument. If I'm using my laptop charger, my phone can't use it at the same time. And if I'm not using my laptop charger, it's probably stowed in my bag, and it's a lot simpler to pull out my phone's charger than it is to pull out my laptop charger. So I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where I'd actually ever plug my phone into my laptop charger.
Not only that but the fact that people are buying lightning headphones for the current gen.
They are in a shitty place right now. They can't go USB-c without pissing off a good amount of their customers, but they can stick with lightening forever either (it's already starting to show its age WRT transfer speeds and other abilities)
They are in a shitty place right now. They can't go USB-c without pissing off a good amount of their customers, but they can stick with lightening forever either (it's already starting to show its age WRT transfer speeds and other abilities)
They could upgrade lightning to support USB-3... Lightning doesn't specify the USB protocol.
[deleted]
I assume that's why they haven't already switched but they just releases Macbooks with nothing but USB-C connectors so I imagine the debate must be on internally at Apple.
Compatibility with their new MacBook Pros, which have four USB C adapters and nothing else.
I disagree, because it doesn't work on anything other than Apple products. I would much rather have micro-USB (or any other widely-adopted standard).
I suspect a lot of people have come to take USB for granted, forgetting about the mess it resolved. (Or, they weren't around at the time)
THIS SO MUCH!! YOURE NOT ALONE!!!
Additionally, Why do I HAVE to use Itunes to sync the phone? I just want to grab a photo off of it.. where's my USB mode?
Additionally, Why do I HAVE to use Itunes to sync the phone? I just want to grab a photo off of it.. where's my USB mode?
This doesn't change your overall argument, but Image Capture on the Mac will let you get your pictures without Photos or Itunes. I'm DONE with Photos and had to figure this out. It's not a great app, but it is simple.
What made you be done with Photos? Just curious before I move 100GBs of Flickr photos into it.
Yeah but PDFs? Text files? Software? Entire Movies? MP3 Albums?
It's all just data in USB mode!
It's all just data in USB mode!
iPhones speak PTP (the USB camera protocol) as long as the screen is unlocked. You can use any photo app you want.
If you just want a few photos, it's much much easier to Airdrop them, or email them, or add them to dropbox, or message them. There's no need to plug in for that.
Assuming you've got an internet connection available for both of your devices, sure. As an example: I've got a work-supplied iPhone that I use for photos of office activities, sometimes. All the file-sharing sites are blocked on the work network, and I don't have a Mac to deal use an Apple-specific transfer protocol with.
Thankfully, the comment you replied to is moot as well. I plug my phone into my machine, unlock the screen, and pull pictures off it all the time.
Still, when putting music on it, I'm left wishing that I had the option to use something like gtkpod, like I used to use with my iPod, back in the day.
Thankfully, the comment you replied to is moot as well. I plug my phone into my machine, unlock the screen, and pull pictures off it all the time.
Still, when putting music on it, I'm left wishing that I had the option to use something like gtkpod, like I used to use with my iPod, back in the day.
Well, how can you "believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware", and subsequently declare that you hate them for not using a subpar standard when compared to their flawlessly engineered proprietary one?
When it comes to what side of the road we drive on, one side might be marginally better than the other - but the major benefits come from everyone agreeing to use the same side, regardless of what side that is.
Easy, for him the iphone connector is a showstopper - no matter how good the rest of the platform actually is.
What makes Apple's better? Genuine question; I haven't looked into this at all.
Reversibility is the clearest benefit to the end user. Also it's a much more durable connector than most, the cable end is just a flat piece of metal as opposed to having pins and whatnot.
Re: durability, one thing most people don't think about is that modern Lightning docks are effectively just Lightning connectors: https://9to5mac.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/apple-lightning-...
The stress of holding up the entire mass of the connected device (that can be as large as an iPad Pro!) is on the connector; and the stress of being held up by that connector is on the tiny part of the device that grips it. That'd be impossible with a USB connector (even USB-C), on both sides.
The stress of holding up the entire mass of the connected device (that can be as large as an iPad Pro!) is on the connector; and the stress of being held up by that connector is on the tiny part of the device that grips it. That'd be impossible with a USB connector (even USB-C), on both sides.
I was surprised the Macbook didn't have any Lightning ports to be honest. I figured they would use that for direct device connection.
As it stands if you have a brand new Macbook Pro and iPhone 7 you can't connect the two without an adapter, which is just stupid.
As it stands if you have a brand new Macbook Pro and iPhone 7 you can't connect the two without an adapter, which is just stupid.
Apple's logic: the Lightning jack only appears on accessories; while the USB-C jack only appears on "computers." There's no Lightning-to-Lightning cable, because it makes no sense to connect one "accessory" to another. All "accessories" come with a Lightning cable, which is USB on the host end for now (because most people don't have computers with USB-C yet!) but will likely be USB-C on the host end in the future (and then you'll need to buy a reverse adapter—female USB-C to male USB—to connect it to old devices. Those will probably be common enough across brands once the USB-C-only accessory market picks up.)
All that being said, it'a interesting to use this logic to deduce what Apple does or doesn't consider an "accessory." The iPhone, iPad, iPod? Accessories. The Apple TV? Computer! The port to plug it into a computer—for XCode provisioning et al—is USB-C! To connect to it right now, you need either a MacBook with its charger cable; or the new MBP, plus an extra C:C cable; or a USB-A male:male cable (rare!) plus Apple's "MacBook USB" (female-USB:male-USB-C) adapter. A male-A:male-C adapter would be great, but nobody has yet made one. The market is very nascent.)
All that being said, it'a interesting to use this logic to deduce what Apple does or doesn't consider an "accessory." The iPhone, iPad, iPod? Accessories. The Apple TV? Computer! The port to plug it into a computer—for XCode provisioning et al—is USB-C! To connect to it right now, you need either a MacBook with its charger cable; or the new MBP, plus an extra C:C cable; or a USB-A male:male cable (rare!) plus Apple's "MacBook USB" (female-USB:male-USB-C) adapter. A male-A:male-C adapter would be great, but nobody has yet made one. The market is very nascent.)
> if you have a brand new Macbook Pro and iPhone 7 you can't connect the two without an adapter
Without a cable, not without an adapter. Very big difference. I can use the same cable to charge my phone from my MacBook's power supply and from the MacBook itself. When I travel, I only take one power supply and two cables. Even if the iPhone and the MacBook used the same connector, I'd still take two cables so I could simultaneously charge them both, so I don't have to carry any extra hardware.
Yes, it would be nice if they could use the same cable, but at least I don't have to take any extra cable or dongle for charging my iPhone (I still need dongles for other things, though).
Without a cable, not without an adapter. Very big difference. I can use the same cable to charge my phone from my MacBook's power supply and from the MacBook itself. When I travel, I only take one power supply and two cables. Even if the iPhone and the MacBook used the same connector, I'd still take two cables so I could simultaneously charge them both, so I don't have to carry any extra hardware.
Yes, it would be nice if they could use the same cable, but at least I don't have to take any extra cable or dongle for charging my iPhone (I still need dongles for other things, though).
Except the cable in question is bought separately. Dongle, cable, adapter, whatever you want to call it: It's two products from the same company that has a reputation for an ecosystem that works extremely well with itself, and if I walk out with two boxes, one Macbook and one iPhone, they cannot be connected without a trip back. That's absurd.
The connector also has pretty much phenomenal build quality, compared to every other whatever USB cable shipped with whatever device.
It makes Apple more money and keeps hate between iPhone and Android users because they can't share chargers.
I don't "happily" buy phones now and I doubt most people do. Most phones are this bizarre compromise between the political wills of some corporation (or designer) and the needs of the user.
I very happily bought the Neptune Pine[1] which is a full featured telephone the size of a watch (I removed the watchband and threw it away). Love it.
[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/neptune/neptune-pine-sm...
[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/neptune/neptune-pine-sm...
You've become Derek Zoolander. http://i.imgur.com/eOXfo95.jpg
It's sold with short sleeves.
I love my iPhone 7. It's my favorite computing device that I've ever bought. 100% serious.
What does it for you? Are there any particular features, or is it just the "everythingness" of it?
As a convert who used to be an ardent Android supporter, I've learned a very important lesson after switching. It's not always about the numbers. In fact it's never about the numbers. You can't quantify sheer quality. You can't quantify how something makes you feel. I understand this can be easily retorted by "Well I get that feel from my Samsung Galaxy N, it's totally subjective", but I think that's just being dishonest. I've seen people mention that they're considering switching back to Android after the headphone jack thing, or switching to a PC laptop after the touchbar thing. For me simply touching the surface of ANY premium laptop currently on the market is enough to realize that Apple is light years ahead in terms of how they engineer their devices to feel. Simple things like opening a lid. Using the trackpad. The force touch. How the ringer switch clicks into place. All of it screams "quality". Not like 15% higher quality, but like light years higher quality. It's my experience anyway. It's like -- yes you can take the best mechanical Breitling and ask what does it do that the average Casio ProTrek does not? And there may be not a good answer for that in terms of numbers. But just take both in your hands, and try to objectively say -- which device you intuitively want to interact with more? Which one attracts you with some inexplicable magic? Which one your fingers are craving to touch and understand? Imagine having that feeling every day with a daily device. Imagine having that feeling as the norm. How could you opt in for something less, despite the numbers?
I carry an iPhone issued by my employer and a personal Android phone. You're absolutely correct about the feel of the device itself, smoothness of the software, etc. It's a very pleasant device to use, and I do use it every day, sometimes in situations where I have the choice between the Apple and the LG.
But none of that matters. If I bought a personal iPhone, I'd miss a few things. I like installing software that isn't on the Google store (specifically, F-Droid, Amazon, and Humble Bundle, in my case). I like having a little Linux system on my phone, and being able to remote into it. I like using scp to get files on and off, torrenting on the phone, being able to expand the device's memory when my needs change, and plugging it in like a giant USB key if I'm somewhere that my laptop doesn't get wifi.
Tellingly, I just bought a new Android phone that took some pretty blatant design cues from Apple's hardware. I think the choice mirrors the choice of which device I use in different situations, in a way.
My first preference would be a desktop computer: powerful CPU+GPU, comfortable inputs, very nice outputs (multiple large monitors, a nice speaker system), and enough storage for everything I want, with room to spare. My next would be a laptop; it's not as nice, but it's certainly easier to carry into the living room. Past that, my phone isn't as capable, but it's easier to put in my pocket...so I'm stuck with whichever tools fits my requirements in my current situation.
But none of that matters. If I bought a personal iPhone, I'd miss a few things. I like installing software that isn't on the Google store (specifically, F-Droid, Amazon, and Humble Bundle, in my case). I like having a little Linux system on my phone, and being able to remote into it. I like using scp to get files on and off, torrenting on the phone, being able to expand the device's memory when my needs change, and plugging it in like a giant USB key if I'm somewhere that my laptop doesn't get wifi.
Tellingly, I just bought a new Android phone that took some pretty blatant design cues from Apple's hardware. I think the choice mirrors the choice of which device I use in different situations, in a way.
My first preference would be a desktop computer: powerful CPU+GPU, comfortable inputs, very nice outputs (multiple large monitors, a nice speaker system), and enough storage for everything I want, with room to spare. My next would be a laptop; it's not as nice, but it's certainly easier to carry into the living room. Past that, my phone isn't as capable, but it's easier to put in my pocket...so I'm stuck with whichever tools fits my requirements in my current situation.
This hits the nail on the head in terms of how I think about Apple. They've so consistently set a bar that others are not able to hit, that at some level there just isn't any competition at all in some areas. Some of these things are very very important. Like all of the incredible accessibility work that they do. This level of detail of caring goes unappreciated all the time but is felt every day for many many people.
The trackpads are what do it for me. I like using a trackpad for a mouse. It's not that their trackpads are the best, it's that every other trackpad in existence is unusably bad.
> It's not always about the numbers. In fact it's never about the numbers.
I've always found it interesting that the Android/iOS debate seems to go only one way. My handful of Android friends have tried convert with some new feature that does x and y over the years, yet I've never found myself trying to convince them to make the opposite switch. I think your quote sums that up pretty nicely.
I've always found it interesting that the Android/iOS debate seems to go only one way. My handful of Android friends have tried convert with some new feature that does x and y over the years, yet I've never found myself trying to convince them to make the opposite switch. I think your quote sums that up pretty nicely.
Yeah, I get you. It's why I'm sticking with my 2012 Macbook pro and honestly considering getting another Pro if it ever dies, despite all the downgrades they've made.
I feel like every time I see somebody with a new phone they're excited about it and want to show it off. And those that don't have a new phone grumble about how they still have to wait another year before they can upgrade.
Oh don't get me wrong, they're always full of exciting gimmicks that are fun for a month or so. I guess some people get distracted by all that enough to get very excited but if you ask them what they actually use/care about (and they answer honestly) it's all "boring" things like battery life, email, IM etc.
I have almost $1000 invested in over-the-ear Sennheisers and custom fitted in-ear Shures.
I don't think I'm going back to the audiologist to spend more hundreds of dollars a second pair that only works with iPhones and not my Mac or any pro audio equipment. Or depending on any battery device (like wireless headphones) that can't be plugged in while operating. Or having a device in my pocket that I can't plug in to a real PA system to test. Or paying what I currently pay for headphones that are iOS XOR Android.
Apple may be right for the millions who only ever use the included headphones, but in a world with compelling iOS alternatives that still have headphone jacks, I'm not throwing away the rest of my equipment or carrying adapters everywhere.
I don't think I'm going back to the audiologist to spend more hundreds of dollars a second pair that only works with iPhones and not my Mac or any pro audio equipment. Or depending on any battery device (like wireless headphones) that can't be plugged in while operating. Or having a device in my pocket that I can't plug in to a real PA system to test. Or paying what I currently pay for headphones that are iOS XOR Android.
Apple may be right for the millions who only ever use the included headphones, but in a world with compelling iOS alternatives that still have headphone jacks, I'm not throwing away the rest of my equipment or carrying adapters everywhere.
Just plug the adapter into the end of your headphone jack and leave it there. It's a female adapter, so it can just hang off of your existing 3.5mm jack. You make it sound far more annoying than it actually is.
And get one adapter for each set of headphones. And if you then use those headphones with nay other device and unplug the adapter just hope you don't set it somewhere and forget it.
It adds too many unnecessary steps.
It adds too many unnecessary steps.
Ugh, I lose a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter for my headphones at least once a month. I've bought extra and try to keep one in any device I have with a 1/4" port, and yet still they manage to come out and get lost. It's easy and cheap to order a dozen of those. It's not going to be cheap to order a dozen lightning->analog adapters.
That's completely fair. However that's a corner case for most people. I think the general use case is that people have routines in their day to day and fit these devices into their predictable routines.
Adapters suck for unpredictable situations but those aren't common enough and Apple knows this.
Adapters suck for unpredictable situations but those aren't common enough and Apple knows this.
> However that's a corner case for most people.
Using a pair of headphones with multiple devices? At least between phone and laptop? That's not a corner case, even though Apple seems to think so by skipping out on a Lightning port on the Macs after putting out lightning headphones.
Using a pair of headphones with multiple devices? At least between phone and laptop? That's not a corner case, even though Apple seems to think so by skipping out on a Lightning port on the Macs after putting out lightning headphones.
I consider the unpredictable case the several to many years it takes to upgrade all the devices between my wife and me. It probably took 3 years to get rid of all the 30 pin devices in our house. I don't see why it will be any better switching away from 1/8".
Exactly. It's a doable workaround, but doesn't make sense when "just buy a Pixel instead" is an option.
You make it sound only slightly less annoying, TBH.
Why do you feed your expensive headphones with the sub-par audio from an iPhone A/D converter (probably listening to lossy compressed MP3 in the first place)?
As long as you do that, the pain of having a (free) dongle attached to it kind of fades in comparison.
As long as you do that, the pain of having a (free) dongle attached to it kind of fades in comparison.
Maybe it's convenient to have high quality headphones for high quality listening, but then also be able to use that with other devices?
> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.
Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.
I honestly don't think that the headphone jack will ever go away. Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in that it's better than nothing but worse than something with wires and a stable connexion.
I daresay you're correct that Apple think they're right, but … I think they're wrong. The question is, can they remain irrational longer than the rest of the market can be rational? I _think_, given Android's market success, that they ultimately can't: Apple have made too many mistakes in too short a timespan.
But only time will tell.
Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.
I honestly don't think that the headphone jack will ever go away. Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in that it's better than nothing but worse than something with wires and a stable connexion.
I daresay you're correct that Apple think they're right, but … I think they're wrong. The question is, can they remain irrational longer than the rest of the market can be rational? I _think_, given Android's market success, that they ultimately can't: Apple have made too many mistakes in too short a timespan.
But only time will tell.
> Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.
http://longbets.org. Also the site Warren Buffet used to bet that he could beat hedge funds with the S&P 500.
http://longbets.org. Also the site Warren Buffet used to bet that he could beat hedge funds with the S&P 500.
That looks pretty cool, but requires one use one's real name. Any anonymous, legal long-term bet site? Sorry to raise the bar …
I was seriously considering switching to iPhone for my next phone after my S.O. had a terrible experience with Google customer support, but my car doesn't have Bluetooth. I don't plan on getting a new car for at least another 5 years, so if I want to listen to music in my car, iPhone is ruled out.
If it has a 3.5mm input socket, there are many Bluetooth to 3.5mm receivers that would work (like this TaoTronics TT-BA08 I'm using right now).
Obviously if you don't have a 3.5mm jack, that doesn't help.
Obviously if you don't have a 3.5mm jack, that doesn't help.
Why? My car doesn't have Bluetooth and my iPhone 7 works just fine, and charges while listening to music and everything. There are already headphone/charging splitters you can get on amazon made just for the 7 (though I'm still using the same setup as my 6).
You don't have to buy a new car to get a different radio. And if your car has a 3,5mm jacket (here we go! ;-), you could use the Chromecast Audio to cast to the car radio with your new iphone without that 3,5mm jacket.
You need a local wifi network for the CC, so you have to setup a wifi hotspot with your phone. Then you make the connection. The downside is that you cannot use car stereo buttons to skip to the next song. And you probably need double usb-charging for the CC and the phone. That's quite a lot of work to setup each and every drive, but for longer drives it might be a good option.
You need a local wifi network for the CC, so you have to setup a wifi hotspot with your phone. Then you make the connection. The downside is that you cannot use car stereo buttons to skip to the next song. And you probably need double usb-charging for the CC and the phone. That's quite a lot of work to setup each and every drive, but for longer drives it might be a good option.
This still has the issue of not being able to use your car controls to control the music, but:
https://www.amazon.com/Antec-Portable-Bluetooth-Receiver-Hea...
Pair this with your phone, and plug it into power. When your car turns on, it powers on, pairs with your phone, and spits audio out over 3.5mm to the car stereo.
Comes with a 3.5mm male -> 3.5mm male plug for this purpose.
https://www.amazon.com/Antec-Portable-Bluetooth-Receiver-Hea...
Pair this with your phone, and plug it into power. When your car turns on, it powers on, pairs with your phone, and spits audio out over 3.5mm to the car stereo.
Comes with a 3.5mm male -> 3.5mm male plug for this purpose.
Guess what, I switched, only I bought a 6s instead of a 7. It's not like you could pretend the 6s is a useless slab overnight.
The SE still exists with a headphone jack and it doesn't look like an iPad held up to your head.
If you're going to leave a cable in your car (I'm assuming that's the plan) just leave a lightning to 3.5mm cable.
Which the iPhone 7 handily comes with (and clones are readily available on Amazon although YMMV as to their quality, obvs.)
Maybe longbets? http://longbets.org/
I think they are legal, because the winnings doesn't go to the participants, but to a charity of the winners choosing.
I think they are legal, because the winnings doesn't go to the participants, but to a charity of the winners choosing.
Exactly correct! Long ago I wrote the LongBets software and am still involved in the Long Now, so I'm happy to facilitate registering a bet between people on this topic; just email me.
At this point we've been up for 14 years. If we're good enough for Warren Buffet's million-dollar bet [1], I'd say we can handle this bet too.
[1] http://longbets.org/362/
At this point we've been up for 14 years. If we're good enough for Warren Buffet's million-dollar bet [1], I'd say we can handle this bet too.
[1] http://longbets.org/362/
Any way to use a pseudonym? I'm happy to throw $200 bucks into the pot.
If you can find a counterparty and that's the only way to get the bet done, I'm glad to ask. But the theory of Long Bets is as a registry for accountable predictions. Accountability is tied to identity. So my guess is that they'd say yes for a well-known pseudonym with a body of work, like Lewis Carroll or Voltaire, but would say no for a throwaway name.
>I honestly don't think that the headphone jack will ever go away.
regardless of the claim, you are just setting yourself up for failure when you make unbound claims like that, nothing lasts forever.
regardless of the claim, you are just setting yourself up for failure when you make unbound claims like that, nothing lasts forever.
I have been using a good pair of bluetooth headphones for over a year and am perfectly happy with them, Audio quality is never an issue with a2dp. Likewise after getting a decent 802.11ac router that provides stable 5GHz Wifi way faster than what my 100Mbps internet connection can provide, I haven't used wired ethernet for ages, apart from wiring my NAS to the router.
10 years is a long time, very sure the Audio Jack will be gone by then or a rarity like Vinyl today.
> Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in that it's better than nothing but worse than something with wires and a stable connexion
It depends on what factors you value. Wired beats wireless for reliability and speed. It gets crushed for convenience, though.
My home wireless is really spotty. I want to run Ethernet to several locations... in order to install more access points.
It depends on what factors you value. Wired beats wireless for reliability and speed. It gets crushed for convenience, though.
My home wireless is really spotty. I want to run Ethernet to several locations... in order to install more access points.
> Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.
I don't know of any website that let you place a bet like that, but you could probably place it at a bookmakers.
I don't know of any website that let you place a bet like that, but you could probably place it at a bookmakers.
> Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in
> that it's better than nothing but worse than
> something with wires and a stable connexion.
You obviously don't work in any kind of office. Wired Ethernet is still the norm for good reason: having hundreds or thousands of PCs in one building fighting over WiFi spectrum would be incredibly stupid and inefficient and slow.
In a startup now. Worked at a 800 person tech company 4 years ago. All laptops, all wireless (at least on my team -- I'm sure there were people that were plugged in somewhere).
Worked at a much larger tech company 1 year ago. Had a desktop that was plugged in, so there's that. Guess I overstated (though I can't say I actually did plug it in myself). Also had a laptop that I worked on over wireless without problems. There were 5k-10k people in that office.
Still I do almost everything over wireless.
Worked at a much larger tech company 1 year ago. Had a desktop that was plugged in, so there's that. Guess I overstated (though I can't say I actually did plug it in myself). Also had a laptop that I worked on over wireless without problems. There were 5k-10k people in that office.
Still I do almost everything over wireless.
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It's getting problematic in the home as well.
> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack,
I bet within a decade we will all happily buy autonomous cars without a steering wheel. This is because in a decade, battery life, software, connectivity and manufacturing experience will provide a large benefit and will be normalized.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that this will provide a 10x better experience. Here is what Apple is doing:
* The Computer is the Hub for all devices
* the cloud is the Hub
* the phone is the Hub
That's fine. Except that if my phone is using bluetooth to be constantly connected to my headphons & iwatch, as well as occasionally my computer; AND it can power my headphones it really dosn't matter if you give me 2x the previous phones battery I am running 4x the amount of devices off it. Apple needed to deliver a phone that lasts >3 days and headphones that aren't a chopped up earbud that can max out at 2 hours.
the iphone 7s will probably be awesome, this is the bridge model as Walt Mossberg put it, and it doesn't seem realistic to even consider buying it.
I bet within a decade we will all happily buy autonomous cars without a steering wheel. This is because in a decade, battery life, software, connectivity and manufacturing experience will provide a large benefit and will be normalized.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that this will provide a 10x better experience. Here is what Apple is doing:
* The Computer is the Hub for all devices
* the cloud is the Hub
* the phone is the Hub
That's fine. Except that if my phone is using bluetooth to be constantly connected to my headphons & iwatch, as well as occasionally my computer; AND it can power my headphones it really dosn't matter if you give me 2x the previous phones battery I am running 4x the amount of devices off it. Apple needed to deliver a phone that lasts >3 days and headphones that aren't a chopped up earbud that can max out at 2 hours.
the iphone 7s will probably be awesome, this is the bridge model as Walt Mossberg put it, and it doesn't seem realistic to even consider buying it.
"I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone"
Sure, absolutely when Rezence” or “PMA,” or whatever the wireless charging standard becomes is ubiquitous. However we don't have that today, no will we have it in 18-24 months, the general duration of a customer's contractual obligation to a carrier and phone model.
And for people that need to type and talk at the same time, sometimes for hours at stretch - for maintenance window or outages or even just long conference calls, not being able to accessboth a headphone jack and a power simultaneously on their phones is a real deal breaker.
I don't think the OP is necessarily pooh-poohing change but rather being pragmatic and practical for the immediate term.
Sure, absolutely when Rezence” or “PMA,” or whatever the wireless charging standard becomes is ubiquitous. However we don't have that today, no will we have it in 18-24 months, the general duration of a customer's contractual obligation to a carrier and phone model.
And for people that need to type and talk at the same time, sometimes for hours at stretch - for maintenance window or outages or even just long conference calls, not being able to accessboth a headphone jack and a power simultaneously on their phones is a real deal breaker.
I don't think the OP is necessarily pooh-poohing change but rather being pragmatic and practical for the immediate term.
I can believe that the 3.5 jack will be removed, but only to be replaced with more convenient open and not proprietary standard--analog standard. I can live with USB-C, that, btw, already has analog audio implemented, when it de facto becomes industry standard for audio output. Just hope they solve simultaneous charging with headphones plugged. Two USB-Cs may be.
But definitely it is not going to be proprietary lightning digital audio port that requires external DAC and licensing.
But definitely it is not going to be proprietary lightning digital audio port that requires external DAC and licensing.
Not when the existing jack is 1) a proprietary standard that does not work with any other device 2) A port that doesn't allow one to charge and use audio at the same time.
Something like a USB-C for everything could be doable - but as far as I know, USB-C ports are thicker than 3.5mm jacks.
Something like a USB-C for everything could be doable - but as far as I know, USB-C ports are thicker than 3.5mm jacks.
I have been buying bluetooth earbuds for years. Cables seem so cumbersome in comparison. If only they could sort out latency on video I would be 100℅ sold.
By eliminating the headphone jack didn't they just create another revenue source? My understanding is that they get paid a per unit licensing fee by anyone who creates/sells an adapter. I was under the impression this was the reason they removed the jack.
>I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack,
No, sorry. I actually enjoy the music I listen to.
No, sorry. I actually enjoy the music I listen to.
>willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack
Are you saying that because you think there will be a better alternative to the 3.5mm jack a decade from now? What does that have to do with what Apple is doing now?
Are you saying that because you think there will be a better alternative to the 3.5mm jack a decade from now? What does that have to do with what Apple is doing now?
I figure it's being said (as someone who both agrees with the statement and is irritated at headphone jack removal) be cause the trend has tilted that way. Apple has merely joined other manufacturers in demonstrating that headphone jack users are actually a niche market.
I suppose I realized this when I saw folks at a former employer's manufacturing department all buying $100 BT headphones... because that meant they could set their phone down and not worry about yanking it off the lab bench.
I suppose I realized this when I saw folks at a former employer's manufacturing department all buying $100 BT headphones... because that meant they could set their phone down and not worry about yanking it off the lab bench.
> because that meant they could set their phone down
Now instead they have to worry about:
- charging stations
- how the headphones identify themselves to the computer
- skype and/or Windows arbitrarily refusing to acknowledge them as headphones during calls
- DRM
- more than 20$ on average price increase
- Security and privacy
Now instead they have to worry about:
- charging stations
- how the headphones identify themselves to the computer
- skype and/or Windows arbitrarily refusing to acknowledge them as headphones during calls
- DRM
- more than 20$ on average price increase
- Security and privacy
They took the tradeoff. Mind you, a number of these things Did Not Matter to them -- they weren't pairing them with the computers, just their phones. I said manufacturing -- they had a bunch of old 'beater' desktops that were over five years old for running device programmers and the like.
It would likely have taken me a full workday to get them up to speed on any security/privacy issues.
As for DRM, not only do I think they wouldn't care so long as their music played, but I'm with everyone who sees no difference between a remote DAC and a local one. (Heck, these folks in manufacturing could easily have disassembled the headphones and put in an analog output at the appropriate point, they had the relevant rework skills -- and that would not trip any phone-internal tamper sensors.)
It would likely have taken me a full workday to get them up to speed on any security/privacy issues.
As for DRM, not only do I think they wouldn't care so long as their music played, but I'm with everyone who sees no difference between a remote DAC and a local one. (Heck, these folks in manufacturing could easily have disassembled the headphones and put in an analog output at the appropriate point, they had the relevant rework skills -- and that would not trip any phone-internal tamper sensors.)
There's already an alternative: USB-C
Apple wasn't the first company to ditch it, or even the second...
http://www.androidcentral.com/moto-z-doesnt-have-headphone-j...
Apple wasn't the first company to ditch it, or even the second...
http://www.androidcentral.com/moto-z-doesnt-have-headphone-j...
That's not really a better alternative, now is it.
Now your headphones must come with all the electronics required for USB-C and their own seperate DACs. This means they're going to be slightly more expensive without any actual improvement over your 3.5mm headphones. Not to mention all of those threats of DRM and whatnot looming around. So with that in mind, why would I possibly want to make the move to USB-C?
Now your headphones must come with all the electronics required for USB-C and their own seperate DACs. This means they're going to be slightly more expensive without any actual improvement over your 3.5mm headphones. Not to mention all of those threats of DRM and whatnot looming around. So with that in mind, why would I possibly want to make the move to USB-C?
Why are there threats of DRM with the DAC moved to the cable instead of the DAC sitting inside the phone (where arguably it has more control over the DAC than if it is sitting in-line on a cable)?
Because you remove the "analogue hole" in the DRM scheme of the 3.5mm jack.
It forgot to improve on the 3.5mm jack!
But thank god I have a thinner phone, I was really having issues sliding it under doors.
But thank god I have a thinner phone, I was really having issues sliding it under doors.
Terrible idea. Your USB-C headphones will become obsolete when the next USB standard inevitably comes out. Meanwhile, 3.5mm will still be kicking.
It had to do with the comment I was replying to.
> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.
I'll take that bet. A decade, so lets say, we bet for $100,000? Is that Ok with you?
I'll take that bet. A decade, so lets say, we bet for $100,000? Is that Ok with you?
It's an unfair bet as you have (almost) complete control of the outcome.
How about he wins if >50% of smartphones sold in the U.S. in 2026 lack 3.5mm headphone ports.
I'd personally bet $10k against you/OP on this.
How about he wins if >50% of smartphones sold in the U.S. in 2026 lack 3.5mm headphone ports.
I'd personally bet $10k against you/OP on this.
No no, don't change the goalposts. The thing that I'm calling the parent on, is the prediction that I will like having no headphone ports. I have no idea what's going to happen with US smartphones sales in 2026, so I won't make a bet on that. I do know that I WILL NOT like not having a headphone port.
Ah, but that's not what their bet was... the bet was that you will happily buy a smartphone without said headphone port -- which I expect will happen because you won't be able to buy one any other way now that it's been demonstrated that it can be eliminated. You might not be happy about that aspect, but still be happy with your new phone as a whole, as you adapt to the lack of any option on that front.
But I won't be happy with my new phone as a whole. You're saying I will, but I won't. You don't know what's inside my mind.
Did you feel the same about floppy drives?
> It's an unfair bet as you have (almost) complete control of the outcome.
That's the other guy's fault, though, because he (foolishly) offered a bet where the taker has "(almost) complete control of the outcome":
>>> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.
Might as well call him on it.
That's the other guy's fault, though, because he (foolishly) offered a bet where the taker has "(almost) complete control of the outcome":
>>> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.
Might as well call him on it.
That wasn't really the spirit of the offered bet. All this pedantry is taking the fun out of it.
Now I actually do believe the OP will "happily" buy a phone without a headphone port. But not if he has a financial incentive to change his behavior.
Now I actually do believe the OP will "happily" buy a phone without a headphone port. But not if he has a financial incentive to change his behavior.
> Now I actually do believe the OP will "happily" buy a phone without a headphone port.
Honestly, the OP might resign himself to it, but I'll doubt he'll be happy about it. It's not like headphones are currently connected with obsolete digital interfaces (e.g. RS232). Headphones are, by their very nature, analog, and making their connection digital just makes integration harder.
Honestly, the OP might resign himself to it, but I'll doubt he'll be happy about it. It's not like headphones are currently connected with obsolete digital interfaces (e.g. RS232). Headphones are, by their very nature, analog, and making their connection digital just makes integration harder.
The headphone industry will look a lot different in ten years.
The wireless standard used by headphones (possibly not BT) will have enough bandwidth to no longer be the bottleneck in wireless audio quality. And more importantly they'll never need to be "charged".
Who's going to miss cables?
The wireless standard used by headphones (possibly not BT) will have enough bandwidth to no longer be the bottleneck in wireless audio quality. And more importantly they'll never need to be "charged".
Who's going to miss cables?
> What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake.
They have backtracked from decisions made, several times, and admitted to mistakes too. Apple Maps is a good example. MobileMe, the return of buttons to the iPod shuffle, price cut on iPhone... same.
The problem is that what you or I think is a mistake, it might not be one in the eyes of Apple.
A lot of the frustration I see these days can be summed up as "Apple no longer is making a product that I like, therefore it is making products that nobody likes".
Well, maybe. Time will tell. But I think they have a very clear vision about how they want their computers to look and feel (same for iPhones) and they are heading there full-speed. For some customers it will be a deal breaker, for others it might be what they need to jump ship and buy a Mac or upgrade from a Macbook Air to a more profitable Macbook Pro.
They have backtracked from decisions made, several times, and admitted to mistakes too. Apple Maps is a good example. MobileMe, the return of buttons to the iPod shuffle, price cut on iPhone... same.
The problem is that what you or I think is a mistake, it might not be one in the eyes of Apple.
A lot of the frustration I see these days can be summed up as "Apple no longer is making a product that I like, therefore it is making products that nobody likes".
Well, maybe. Time will tell. But I think they have a very clear vision about how they want their computers to look and feel (same for iPhones) and they are heading there full-speed. For some customers it will be a deal breaker, for others it might be what they need to jump ship and buy a Mac or upgrade from a Macbook Air to a more profitable Macbook Pro.
What frustrates me the most is that Apple no longer is making a product that I like but no one else is. Every single laptop model in the market lacks at least one feature that's essential to me.
Well, ask yourself what could be the reason.
When you hear about post-PC and how the computer market is changing, THIS is exactly what it means. Traditional computers and laptops are going to become more expensive, sell in less quantities and be very, very focused on some specific needs.
For companies like Apple, Microsoft, Dell, etc... this will translate into much simpler product lines that will update less frequently.
When you hear about post-PC and how the computer market is changing, THIS is exactly what it means. Traditional computers and laptops are going to become more expensive, sell in less quantities and be very, very focused on some specific needs.
For companies like Apple, Microsoft, Dell, etc... this will translate into much simpler product lines that will update less frequently.
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> What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake
In corporate politics that would be a suicide. Only Jobs was powerful enough to make mistakes.
Anyway it is shocking what Apple does now. During Jobs Apple removed product features only used by laggards. Now Apple removes the features used even by pragmatists and early adopters[1]. Do you known how many people moved exclusively to wireless headphones and TH3?
Another surprising thing is ignoring the professionals. They are in minority and it is hard to see them on sales charts. But they are opinion leaders.
Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres. With current trend, in 5 years Apple brand might be associated with rich bozos buying gold phones. Just look at the Mercedes S vs Tesla Models S sales in last 2 years.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
In corporate politics that would be a suicide. Only Jobs was powerful enough to make mistakes.
Anyway it is shocking what Apple does now. During Jobs Apple removed product features only used by laggards. Now Apple removes the features used even by pragmatists and early adopters[1]. Do you known how many people moved exclusively to wireless headphones and TH3?
Another surprising thing is ignoring the professionals. They are in minority and it is hard to see them on sales charts. But they are opinion leaders.
Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres. With current trend, in 5 years Apple brand might be associated with rich bozos buying gold phones. Just look at the Mercedes S vs Tesla Models S sales in last 2 years.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
> Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals.
Just stop right there, OK?
Look back through my comments and you can see I've made this point a few times, but I'll make it again just for you. Mac laptops are sturdy, well made devices. My workstation provided by work is a lenovo W series laptop. I can push the bottom screen bezel and it flexes a full half inch. The plastic above the keyboard flexes also. The trackpad is meh (and TINY!). For the price (which at the time of purchase was not really inexpensive), it is cheap plastic crap.
My rMBP is solid. Feels wonderful to type on. The screen hinge stays put and doesn't shimmy. The keyboard feel solid with no flex. It's worth the price, especially compared to a lot of the junk that's out there today.
Just stop right there, OK?
Look back through my comments and you can see I've made this point a few times, but I'll make it again just for you. Mac laptops are sturdy, well made devices. My workstation provided by work is a lenovo W series laptop. I can push the bottom screen bezel and it flexes a full half inch. The plastic above the keyboard flexes also. The trackpad is meh (and TINY!). For the price (which at the time of purchase was not really inexpensive), it is cheap plastic crap.
My rMBP is solid. Feels wonderful to type on. The screen hinge stays put and doesn't shimmy. The keyboard feel solid with no flex. It's worth the price, especially compared to a lot of the junk that's out there today.
I'm typing this on a Lenovo X200 and I don't know what you're on about. This is easily the best laptop I've ever used in terms of durability and sturdiness. Yeah, I can press on that lower bezel and get that flex, but who the hell does that? When I shut the laptop, that bezel is safely tucked away in a very solid case. The thinkpads know where it matters.
The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear, and all of the hardware supports Linux _perfectly_ OOTB. It has a far better keyboard, too, plus a fingerprint reader and the famous little thinkpad light. I also used a Thinkpad T420 for a while, which has many of the same benefits and packs more of a punch.
Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear, and all of the hardware supports Linux _perfectly_ OOTB. It has a far better keyboard, too, plus a fingerprint reader and the famous little thinkpad light. I also used a Thinkpad T420 for a while, which has many of the same benefits and packs more of a punch.
Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
> Yeah, I can press on that lower bezel and get that flex, but who the hell does that?
Someone who values quality? It's not like I jab it all the time, but knowing it does it irks me. So glad I wasn't the one who paid for this junk.
> The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear,...
So, you've matured and take better care of your things. Good!
> Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
That makes absolutely zero sense.
Someone who values quality? It's not like I jab it all the time, but knowing it does it irks me. So glad I wasn't the one who paid for this junk.
> The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear,...
So, you've matured and take better care of your things. Good!
> Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
That makes absolutely zero sense.
A great example of the reality distortion field. You like Macs and they don't flex, that's great. But they are simply not more durable than a Thinkpad. You're rMBP is unlikely to survive even a single drop, the glossy glass screen would crack. The Magsafe cable has to be thin and light and is prone to failure. The keyboard on the Thinkpad has more travel and is better to type on.
Apple make many trade-offs in their designs.
My lenovo would fare far worse in a drop. It's a flimsy, plastic, overweight piece of junk.
Edit: I disagree about the keyboards, kinda. I have here a late 2014 rMBP, a Lenovo W530 and T510. I prefer the mac keyboard. I hate the w530 keyboard, but the t510 keyboard is really nice (it's before lenovo did the redesign).
Edit: I disagree about the keyboards, kinda. I have here a late 2014 rMBP, a Lenovo W530 and T510. I prefer the mac keyboard. I hate the w530 keyboard, but the t510 keyboard is really nice (it's before lenovo did the redesign).
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The MacBook Pro design makes trade-offs that many don't want. Personally, I don't like the thinness obsession, the aluminium, the glossy screen, the keyboard, the glued battery, the port choices. What really scares me, with all the evangelism, is that one day I won't be able to go buy my "oversized plastic junk", because all the PC vendors will be making MacBooks.
Apple doesn't need your evangelism, they are the richest corporation in the world. We need a healthy industry with products that make different trade-offs. So please let's recognise the trade-offs and not argue which is better.
I don't disagree that there are trade-offs. My point was, I still feel it's a solid device and weighing the pros/cons, I still bought a rMBP. My issue was the idea that I bought it simply because I want to "appear" as professional. I _am_ a professional (developer) and still chose it because the pros (at the time) outweighed the cons (for me).
This whole meme that people who buy Apple are sheep is getting old.
This whole meme that people who buy Apple are sheep is getting old.
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> but I'll make it again just for you. Mac laptops are sturdy, well made devices
You misunderstood me. I agree that Apple products have the best build quality. But Apple was always something more than a well build luxury product. MacBook Pro was a tool used by professionals to create good things. Without professionals, it is just another luxury product. And ordinary luxury product won't have that high sales.
You misunderstood me. I agree that Apple products have the best build quality. But Apple was always something more than a well build luxury product. MacBook Pro was a tool used by professionals to create good things. Without professionals, it is just another luxury product. And ordinary luxury product won't have that high sales.
Which begs the question, why aren't there more manufacturers trying to compete in that space? Apple is successful because they have no competition at the top of the market.
> In corporate politics that would be a suicide. Only Jobs was powerful enough to make mistakes.
To wit: an insignificant change (dropping skeuomorphic UI) was coincident with Scott Forstall being canned.
> Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres.
I used to think this way, until I went through 3 PC laptops in 2 years. Macs are worth every penny of the premium Apple commands, and more.
That said, to keep me as a customer they are going to have to do a better job convincing me they aren't planning to discontinue the Mac lineup. And they'll have to offer a more convincing spec bump over my 2014 15" rMBP, which remains borderline-overkill for my needs.
To wit: an insignificant change (dropping skeuomorphic UI) was coincident with Scott Forstall being canned.
> Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres.
I used to think this way, until I went through 3 PC laptops in 2 years. Macs are worth every penny of the premium Apple commands, and more.
That said, to keep me as a customer they are going to have to do a better job convincing me they aren't planning to discontinue the Mac lineup. And they'll have to offer a more convincing spec bump over my 2014 15" rMBP, which remains borderline-overkill for my needs.
I hope you are not comparing $700 PC laptops to a $2k MBP here, because there are a lot of very rigid and durable PC laptops available.
The problem with this is that dgregd claimed that MBP owners overpaid for their laptop. So in order to contest that claim it's natural to compare a MBP against a cheaper PC laptop to demonstrate the differences. Once you're comparing a $2k PC laptop against a $2k MBP, it's a lot harder to maintain the narrative that the MBP user overpaid.
A $1400 MBP - I bought it on clearance after the 2015 refresh. And I was thinking more of my $900 2011 MBA.
The PCs all failed spontaneously; it's not even like I dropped them or anything. And only one was the hard drive.
The PCs all failed spontaneously; it's not even like I dropped them or anything. And only one was the hard drive.
Forstall got canned for the Maps fiasco. Which, by the way, Apple did apologize for, in a public letter from Tim Cook.
>I used to think this way, until I went through 3 PC laptops in 2 years. Macs are worth every penny of the premium Apple commands, and more.
Maybe you should stop shopping for cheap, consumer-grade crap and get a real laptop like a Thinkpad or Latitude.
Maybe you should stop shopping for cheap, consumer-grade crap and get a real laptop like a Thinkpad or Latitude.
Then we're into the same price category as Apple, for anvil-esque hunks of plastic with tiny trackpads and low-resolution screens.
The Thinkpad Helix 2 I'm currently sat at cost me 600 quid earlier this year (and is the 8Gb RAM model so not completely un-comparable to the lower end of the new macbooks)
The Latitudes I get are hunks of magnesium and aluminum, not plastic.
I don't give a shit about trackpads; I use the Trackpoints (which Macs don't have) since they're much easier and faster to use, and a separate mouse most of the time. No touchpad compares to a real mouse, just like a touchscreen keyboard will never compare to a real keyboard.
They're available with high-resolution screens, and even better, they're matte (Macs are not, they're glossy), so I can see them in different lighting situations.
Finally, I get mine at dirt-cheap prices by buying them used, because corporations buy these things in bulk and only keep them for a couple of years before liquidating them. So there's a very healthy used market with machines in excellent, near-new shape because they don't hold their resale value the way Macs do with their cultist followers (and the fact that most people have zero awareness of enterprise laptops). And since computers aren't actually improving technologically any more, a 3-year-old laptop in excellent condition is just as productive and useful as a brand-new one, but at a fraction of the cost.
I don't give a shit about trackpads; I use the Trackpoints (which Macs don't have) since they're much easier and faster to use, and a separate mouse most of the time. No touchpad compares to a real mouse, just like a touchscreen keyboard will never compare to a real keyboard.
They're available with high-resolution screens, and even better, they're matte (Macs are not, they're glossy), so I can see them in different lighting situations.
Finally, I get mine at dirt-cheap prices by buying them used, because corporations buy these things in bulk and only keep them for a couple of years before liquidating them. So there's a very healthy used market with machines in excellent, near-new shape because they don't hold their resale value the way Macs do with their cultist followers (and the fact that most people have zero awareness of enterprise laptops). And since computers aren't actually improving technologically any more, a 3-year-old laptop in excellent condition is just as productive and useful as a brand-new one, but at a fraction of the cost.
> No touchpad compares to a real mouse
Depending on your work, I think this is an outdated viewpoint.
Apple sells large, detached trackpads, and they're quite popular amongst people I know (all hardcore programmers):
https://www.apple.com/magic-accessories/
I personally still prefer a mouse when at a desktop, but it can't be denied that Apple's trackpads and their gesture support are incredibly good.
Depending on your work, I think this is an outdated viewpoint.
Apple sells large, detached trackpads, and they're quite popular amongst people I know (all hardcore programmers):
https://www.apple.com/magic-accessories/
I personally still prefer a mouse when at a desktop, but it can't be denied that Apple's trackpads and their gesture support are incredibly good.
> Maybe you should stop shopping for cheap, consumer-grade crap and get a real laptop like a Thinkpad or Latitude.
If only that were true. Lenovo products are high priced chunks of thin, flexible plastic.
You're basically comparing 30th floor office space to a freaking warehouse.
If only that were true. Lenovo products are high priced chunks of thin, flexible plastic.
You're basically comparing 30th floor office space to a freaking warehouse.
Had a latitude 7440 before my Mac. The difference is still significant, sometimes I have to boot it back up and this makes me sad. The touchpad alone is worth upgrading for.
While this sounds nice, I don't think it's correct. If people really bought products because they wanted to use the same thing professionals use, then everyone would be running around with Thinkpads and Latitudes, not Macbooks. And they would have turned their noses up at iPhones and bought Blackberries instead. Apple stuff is just fashion accessories (though for the iPhone, I will grant that it was a quantum leap over the state of the art at the time, but not any more, and this doesn't apply to the situation with notebook computers). They use their marketing to convince rubes that their stuff is the best made, but it's not actual professional gear.
As for Mercedes S vs. Tesla Model S, that seems like an apples-and-oranges comparison there. The Mercedes isn't electric. EVs are fundamentally different vehicles from gas-powered cars, and someone who really wants an EV is not going to even bother looking at gas-powered cars in the same price range. That would be like looking at a really nice microwave oven and then buying a really nice set of stainless-steel cookware instead; sure, they can both be used for cooking, but they're really different approaches to the problem and not normally used for the same thing.
As for Mercedes S vs. Tesla Model S, that seems like an apples-and-oranges comparison there. The Mercedes isn't electric. EVs are fundamentally different vehicles from gas-powered cars, and someone who really wants an EV is not going to even bother looking at gas-powered cars in the same price range. That would be like looking at a really nice microwave oven and then buying a really nice set of stainless-steel cookware instead; sure, they can both be used for cooking, but they're really different approaches to the problem and not normally used for the same thing.
Interesting how I get down-modded to oblivion any time I make a post that challenges the Apple Kool-Aid. Maybe instead of "Hacker News", this place should be renamed "Hipster News" if it's just a congregation place for Apple cultists.
Please keep posting! Hacker News needs people like you. People who "Think Different" and challenge the status quo.
I can think of one instance. After Apple released the 3rd gen iPod Shuffle (gumstick) with no buttons they said at the release of the 4th gen iPod Shuffle event: "But users clearly like the buttons". So then the next gen had buttons just like the 2nd gen.
What about the changes that bluedino talks about?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12836747
> [The Macbook Air] didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12836747
> [The Macbook Air] didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
They did that while keeping it thin and light though, which is the entire reason for the Macbook Air to exist - or at least, it was, until the even thinner revised Macbook turned up. Which will, I'm pretty sure, gain a second USB C port just as soon as they figure out how to fit it in.
Oh they do admit mistakes.. They just don't say it:
Steve Jobs on why the iPod color doesn't have video said something to the effect of "nobody want to watch video on a tiny screen". a generation or 2 later the iPod (classic style) can play video.
You can totally make do with html/javascript apps on the iPhone. Not long after there is an SDK/app store.
cut and paste on iOS: It took a couple years but here is our version that is world beating.
That round mouse they included with the original iMac didn't last long.
I think a lot of projects were killed (Newton, Pipin, iPod, the motorola phone that used iTunes.) that just didn't work out.
Not to mention 'ping' (social media for iTunes) and the cloud based infrastructure.
I think the problem is Steve really liked the mac, and you could see that during his demos he was a power user and understood the product better.
Steve Jobs on why the iPod color doesn't have video said something to the effect of "nobody want to watch video on a tiny screen". a generation or 2 later the iPod (classic style) can play video.
You can totally make do with html/javascript apps on the iPhone. Not long after there is an SDK/app store.
cut and paste on iOS: It took a couple years but here is our version that is world beating.
That round mouse they included with the original iMac didn't last long.
I think a lot of projects were killed (Newton, Pipin, iPod, the motorola phone that used iTunes.) that just didn't work out.
Not to mention 'ping' (social media for iTunes) and the cloud based infrastructure.
I think the problem is Steve really liked the mac, and you could see that during his demos he was a power user and understood the product better.
> nobody needs cut and paste
Said no one, ever, including Apple with the original iPhone.
Said no one, ever, including Apple with the original iPhone.
I checked on it, Apple didn't say it, but it wasn't added as a feature to the device for a couple years.
I edited the comment to reflect that.
I edited the comment to reflect that.
Newton is an interesting case. Apple made two big mistakes... They didn't realize how hard handwriting recognition was and they didn't realize how important syncing with a computer was.
I think there's an alternate universe out there where Apple kept the Newton and it evolved into the iPhone.
I think there's an alternate universe out there where Apple kept the Newton and it evolved into the iPhone.
You're forgetting about the phablet market. Apple insisted that the puny iphones were the prefect size for all people. I bailed for a Note2 and never looked back.
I wish people made more puny phones that work with my small hands. I'm really happy with iPhone SE, but I don't have high hopes that there will be a refresh.
I don't think they ever said copy/paste was unnecessary, although it mostly was in iOS 1.
"Never" is a bit of an overstatement. There was an apology for Apple Maps. I think better way to put it is that Apple doesn't engage in a genuine way with customers. It communicates with favored individuals in the press or chosen customers via email, with the expectation that the email from Tim Cook or Phil Schiller will serve to get the word out.
Compare the number of Google employees making public statements through blogs with the number of Apple employees who do so.
There's very little acknowledgement of public input, as if anything the public had to say about Apple products doesn't matter because Apple knows better.
Compare the number of Google employees making public statements through blogs with the number of Apple employees who do so.
There's very little acknowledgement of public input, as if anything the public had to say about Apple products doesn't matter because Apple knows better.
"Likewise, with the new MacBook Pros, they are not going to release an update in a year's time that doesn't sacrifice ports and performance and battery life for size and weight, because doing so would be admitting a mistake."
I know this has been litigated to death in the original thread, but I think the 4 USB-C ports implicitly admits the MacBook with only a single USB-C port was a mistake. I think obsessing about having specific legacy ports is short sighted, and pushing forward with new connection technologies fits well with Apple's history of innovation. Having ports capable of being every thing from power connector to video display to high speed disk connector to mouse or keyboard port offers great flexibility and will seem like an obvious choice very soon.
I think the claimed battery life still fairs well against similarly spec'd PCs?
Size and weight are super important characteristics for many users. Not sure sacrificing these attributes would appeal to most laptop consumers.
"Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone, because doing so would be admitting a mistake."
It's only a mistake if their overall profits would be higher by cutting prices.
Now, the sacrifice I don't understand at all is capping RAM at 16GB. Makes the MacBook Pro seem like a very low end machine compared to the competition, and will almost certainly shorten its useful lifespan, especially for professional user.
I know this has been litigated to death in the original thread, but I think the 4 USB-C ports implicitly admits the MacBook with only a single USB-C port was a mistake. I think obsessing about having specific legacy ports is short sighted, and pushing forward with new connection technologies fits well with Apple's history of innovation. Having ports capable of being every thing from power connector to video display to high speed disk connector to mouse or keyboard port offers great flexibility and will seem like an obvious choice very soon.
I think the claimed battery life still fairs well against similarly spec'd PCs?
Size and weight are super important characteristics for many users. Not sure sacrificing these attributes would appeal to most laptop consumers.
"Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone, because doing so would be admitting a mistake."
It's only a mistake if their overall profits would be higher by cutting prices.
Now, the sacrifice I don't understand at all is capping RAM at 16GB. Makes the MacBook Pro seem like a very low end machine compared to the competition, and will almost certainly shorten its useful lifespan, especially for professional user.
> Now, the sacrifice I don't understand at all is capping RAM at 16GB.
Apparently, the lack of a higher capacity RAM was due to the performance/energy ratio.
https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944
Apparently, the lack of a higher capacity RAM was due to the performance/energy ratio.
https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944
> Now, the sacrifice I don't understand at all is capping RAM at 16GB.
Totally agreed. The laptop I'm writing this on has 8GB and Firefox happily gobbles most of it. The server I recently built has 16GB which already feels very constrained. My next laptop is going to have 32GB for sure. If Apple don't have a 32GB Macbook Pro my next laptop ain't going to be from Apple.
Oh. And it's fares well, no?
Totally agreed. The laptop I'm writing this on has 8GB and Firefox happily gobbles most of it. The server I recently built has 16GB which already feels very constrained. My next laptop is going to have 32GB for sure. If Apple don't have a 32GB Macbook Pro my next laptop ain't going to be from Apple.
Oh. And it's fares well, no?
SSD in Macbook Pro is crazy fast. So fast that finally, after many years, we can think about "replacing" RAM with it.
LPDDR3 RAM speed = 17 GB/sec, SSD read - 3 GB/sec. As much as it sounds crazy, i believe, SSD will eventually replace big and inefficient RAM's (which consume 6 W of power for each 16 GB slot)
LPDDR3 RAM speed = 17 GB/sec, SSD read - 3 GB/sec. As much as it sounds crazy, i believe, SSD will eventually replace big and inefficient RAM's (which consume 6 W of power for each 16 GB slot)
> Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone
For the average developer the MBP amortizes out to somewhere around one day of salary per year, out of the ~251 annual work days, even less if you keep it more than four years. Is there any other industry with lower overhead costs?
For the average developer the MBP amortizes out to somewhere around one day of salary per year, out of the ~251 annual work days, even less if you keep it more than four years. Is there any other industry with lower overhead costs?
That would be fine if the components actually were expensive. Most people would avoid lining the pockets of the executives with their hard earned money if they had a choice.
> Apple never admits a mistake.
Not sure what you call "admission" but they did screw up their Maps application and apologized for it[1].
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/sep/28/apple-map...
Not sure what you call "admission" but they did screw up their Maps application and apologized for it[1].
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/sep/28/apple-map...
> What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake.
Really? No one remembers the very public apology from Tim Cook about their Maps roll out?
http://www.apple.com/ca/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/
Really? No one remembers the very public apology from Tim Cook about their Maps roll out?
http://www.apple.com/ca/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/
That's an apology for poor execution, not a mistake as in making the wrong choice.
It's still an apology. You're adding constraints the OP never had.
Yeah because Google or GM or Sony or Audi all come out regularly and admit their mistakes. Honestly do you really expect any company to do that?
Also as mentioned in the article - Apple charges a premium to, some would say, wisely cash-in on early adopters; over the life of the product its price drops. If you want an affordable Apple product - just like any other company - don't buy the very latest, newest model of any of their stuff.
Also as mentioned in the article - Apple charges a premium to, some would say, wisely cash-in on early adopters; over the life of the product its price drops. If you want an affordable Apple product - just like any other company - don't buy the very latest, newest model of any of their stuff.
> Honestly do you really expect any company to do that?
Yes? Many companies do that, especially small to medium businesses.
Multinationals are the only exception.
Yes? Many companies do that, especially small to medium businesses.
Multinationals are the only exception.
The prices of the MBP aren't even high historically adjusted for inflation. The always "raise" prices on model redesign, and taper them down on refresh. This reddit post has a pretty illustrative chart, https://m.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/59uyqw/all_13_and_15_m...
Everyone is acting like Apple is extorting people or being unconscionable because they can't have 32 gigs of ram (no one else can at any small laptop size, Intel's chipset is the limitation), or the prices are extreme when they're really just right in line with inflation...
Everyone is acting like Apple is extorting people or being unconscionable because they can't have 32 gigs of ram (no one else can at any small laptop size, Intel's chipset is the limitation), or the prices are extreme when they're really just right in line with inflation...
That's not really true. E.g the first Macbook Air had a very small battery and only a single USB port. The third gen released 18 months later had two USB ports, a much larger battery, and an SD card slot.
I don't understand how those things are mistakes. You can easily make up for the missing jacks and ports with dongles. But you could easily argue that it's a mistake to keep those jacks and ports to support a shrinking base of users that still require those jacks an ports. I haven't used the headphone jack on my phone in a very long time, it's a backup if anything, but mostly just a place that collects lint.
The reactions here to recent Apple products remind me of slashdot's infamous - "no wireless, less space than a nomad".
Like the original USB on the iMac (which also caused uproar), USB-C is significantly better than the previous mess of competing standards. The iPhone should have been usb-c too but that's a whole other debate.
Like the original MacBook Air (which was panned for performance), these new computers will be used by many for serious work, they are not fatally flawed or underpowered.
Like serial ports, analogue audio ports have had their day, USB has more than enough bandwidth.
You might disagree with these choices and compromises, but it's simply hubris to imagine HN denizens are in sync with the majority, or even ahead of it, they very rarely are.
Like the original USB on the iMac (which also caused uproar), USB-C is significantly better than the previous mess of competing standards. The iPhone should have been usb-c too but that's a whole other debate.
Like the original MacBook Air (which was panned for performance), these new computers will be used by many for serious work, they are not fatally flawed or underpowered.
Like serial ports, analogue audio ports have had their day, USB has more than enough bandwidth.
You might disagree with these choices and compromises, but it's simply hubris to imagine HN denizens are in sync with the majority, or even ahead of it, they very rarely are.
"What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake."
In a country as lawsuit happy as the USA, would any decent legal departement allow a company to admit a mistake?
And if these machines do not sell, I would expect they will cut prices or price the next version (which, then, may come out fairly soon) lower (it wouldn't surprise me if their roadmap already includes a version with a Skylake CPU and DDR4 memory at the current price point, while keeping the existing models around at lower prices)
In a country as lawsuit happy as the USA, would any decent legal departement allow a company to admit a mistake?
And if these machines do not sell, I would expect they will cut prices or price the next version (which, then, may come out fairly soon) lower (it wouldn't surprise me if their roadmap already includes a version with a Skylake CPU and DDR4 memory at the current price point, while keeping the existing models around at lower prices)
> What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake.
Apple does. At least with Maps fiasco, Tim Cook apologized publicly.
Apple does. At least with Maps fiasco, Tim Cook apologized publicly.
I'm not sure if it's really Apple's fault at this point. Over the summer, two people that I know went out and bought MacBook Airs -- even though its specs are severely outdated for its price. As long as people continue to buy their uninnovative products, Apple will continue to never admit a mistake.
They did once. One of the earlier iPhones boasted about how its smaller screen size was "the perfect screen size" due to the size of your fingers and how you needed to be able to reach both top corners. Obviously they made bigger screens since then and ignored that they ever said those things.
And god dammit they were right back then!
> What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake.
Do take a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr_KxouI8Zs
Do take a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr_KxouI8Zs
Sounds to me like Apple needs to get married for a few years. That'll fix its problem right quick.
Give it long enough, and it'll even be admitting to making big mistakes with Windows 10 telemetry data reporting.
Give it long enough, and it'll even be admitting to making big mistakes with Windows 10 telemetry data reporting.
They switched to x86 after years of publicly touting the benefits of PPC (all the while working on the switch project in secret). I think you are attributing a corporation too much human-like emotions.
They will change if it hurts their bottom line enough. Only question is how much is "enough".
No escape key on the new Macbook Pro either.
MacBook Escape, which will be the most popular model by far, has all the hardware escape keys any user wants.
What, specifically, are you using your ESC key for? (Not a challenge, just curiosity.)
I'm old enough to remember that public hand-wringing always accompanies major updates to Apple product lines. The Macbook Air was WIDELY panned when it was first released. It went on to be the most popular laptop they sell, and one of the most popular in the U.S.
Apple has a ton of money and a willingness to percolate new ideas. We won't be able to really evaluate the new MBP--and the ideas it contains--for years.
Apple has a ton of money and a willingness to percolate new ideas. We won't be able to really evaluate the new MBP--and the ideas it contains--for years.
>> The Macbook Air was WIDELY panned when it was first released.
The Air wasn't a replacement of the Pro. It was a new device, an ultra portable.
It didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
The Air wasn't a replacement of the Pro. It was a new device, an ultra portable.
It didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
The Macbook Pro has seen its share of pro hand-wringing, like
- When they dropped the matte screen option
- When they dropped the 17-inch screen size
- When they dropped the Express Card slot
- When they dropped the optical "super drive"
- When they dropped Ethernet and Firewire
- When they made the battery non-removable
- When they made the display Retina
Many of these complaints were driven by legitimate concerns at the time (for example first-gen Retina machines really did struggle sometimes). Ultimately Apple saw significant sales growth, even among pros, and I don't see many calls these days to reverse those decisions.[1]
[1] This thread will probably now be inundated with calls to reverse those decisions.
- When they dropped the matte screen option
- When they dropped the 17-inch screen size
- When they dropped the Express Card slot
- When they dropped the optical "super drive"
- When they dropped Ethernet and Firewire
- When they made the battery non-removable
- When they made the display Retina
Many of these complaints were driven by legitimate concerns at the time (for example first-gen Retina machines really did struggle sometimes). Ultimately Apple saw significant sales growth, even among pros, and I don't see many calls these days to reverse those decisions.[1]
[1] This thread will probably now be inundated with calls to reverse those decisions.
And all through this, they kept selling macbook pros that were competitive in term of specs. The first macbook pro retina could already be ordered with 16GB ram.
This time, they do not have a single laptop with competitive specs. This time, they do not have a single laptop that has enough horsepower to be good upgrade for a lot of professionals. The new graphic card is average at best and there's only 16GB ram.
There's actually only one decision from your list I'd love to reverse. I liked the 17 inch macbook pro and I'd love to have one again... I have a macbook for when I need portability, my macbook pro is my work machine and just needs to go from my desk to my client's office.
This time, they do not have a single laptop with competitive specs. This time, they do not have a single laptop that has enough horsepower to be good upgrade for a lot of professionals. The new graphic card is average at best and there's only 16GB ram.
There's actually only one decision from your list I'd love to reverse. I liked the 17 inch macbook pro and I'd love to have one again... I have a macbook for when I need portability, my macbook pro is my work machine and just needs to go from my desk to my client's office.
When is the last time a Macbook Pro had a graphics card that was better than average? I don't think it has ever been a GPU monster.
It's fine to criticize Apple for that (plenty have), but to me it seems weird to single out the newest model for something that has characterized the line for years.
I expect the 32GB option will appear with the next Intel architecture. They undoubtedly engineered the case for that point in time and will just suffer the complaints until they get there. The case is not something they can change from year to year; the logic board is.
In the meantime it will be interesting to see what happens when people actually try the new machines.
It's fine to criticize Apple for that (plenty have), but to me it seems weird to single out the newest model for something that has characterized the line for years.
I expect the 32GB option will appear with the next Intel architecture. They undoubtedly engineered the case for that point in time and will just suffer the complaints until they get there. The case is not something they can change from year to year; the logic board is.
In the meantime it will be interesting to see what happens when people actually try the new machines.
Yeah, with respect to your footnote, I grew up on Apple products. Sometime in college (2009) I switched to using Linux primarily. For my last dev job, I was given a MacBook Pro (previous generation). It lacked an optical drive, it lacked an ethernet, and the shiny screen meant that I could not easily work with it outside (something I love to do).
Each of these lacks did impact my life, in the way of significant, but manageable, annoyances. The lack of optical drive meant my partner and I couldn't watch DVDs on it. The lack of Ethernet meant that transferring any significant amount of data off of it was a pain in the butt. And I went through periods of eye strain as a result of the screen.
Each of these was a serious annoyance that bothered me. But I put up with it, and was even considering getting a new Macbook Pro as my next machine, because the rest of the experience was great. Now, I'm definitely not going to be getting a new Macbook Pro, because the most recent changes cross over the line from significant, but manageable, annoyances in to the realm of major hindrances.
Each of these lacks did impact my life, in the way of significant, but manageable, annoyances. The lack of optical drive meant my partner and I couldn't watch DVDs on it. The lack of Ethernet meant that transferring any significant amount of data off of it was a pain in the butt. And I went through periods of eye strain as a result of the screen.
Each of these was a serious annoyance that bothered me. But I put up with it, and was even considering getting a new Macbook Pro as my next machine, because the rest of the experience was great. Now, I'm definitely not going to be getting a new Macbook Pro, because the most recent changes cross over the line from significant, but manageable, annoyances in to the realm of major hindrances.
This is way off topic, but as a linux user, did you ever dual boot linux distros on macbooks? Work gave me a macbook and after fruitlessly trying to learn a new OS (and hotkeys...) I just threw ubuntu as a dual boot on it... and it's a nightmare. Crashing, freezing, hanging, video glitches, stuck pageflips, etc. Would love to know your experience.
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Yeah, the first Air was pretty awful - so focussed on being so thin and so light that it sacrificed almost everything else. You know, like being useful.
The second Air was a genuinely good machine, and that's when it became really popular.
The second Air was a genuinely good machine, and that's when it became really popular.
Yeah, exactly. In this case the first MacBook (with the single USB-C port) would be the first awful prototype. The new MacBook Pros would be the improved followup. But I don't think they'll be as popular as the Air, not yet.
I know in my case I wanted one instantly but my MBP wasn't stolen until several years later so I didn't buy an Air right at launch. Wasn't because of ports or anything.
there's only one 'idea': the touch bar
it's ok, the rest is disappointing though
it's ok, the rest is disappointing though
[deleted]
Is this whole thing satire? I'm taking it as serious, but maybe the joke's on me...
> these new Macs seem to have gained an average of $200 over the preceding models of the same size. What makes Apple think they can get away with that? Apple can get away with that because it always has gotten away with it.
So, inflation has gone up 10.7 percent since 2010, which is just over $200 on a $2000 laptop.
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
Seems like a bogus assumption to suggest that Apple is "getting away" with something. What comparable companies with comparable products have left their prices untouched since 2010? The Big Mac went up more than 20% since 2010.
> Apple fanboys are proud to be the first and proud to have spent so much. It’s a luxury thing, I suppose. [...] This very durability presents a problem for Apple
I'm totally confused. Apple has a problem because it's products are too good? The products outlive your cheap shitty Windows laptops 3:1, yet only luxury and status explains why people buy Apple products?
> All Apple needs is a new product category, right? Another iMac, iPod, iPhone, iPad will do nicely. Where is it? It isn’t anywhere and in that sense Apple has lost its mojo.
Same argument every year. This one has been used every year that a new product category was introduced, because it's deemed not new enough. How many product categories have been introduced since Apple started, or even since the iMac? And how many years have elapsed since then? It's a strange myth or fail or arithmetic to think Apple has done something mind glowingly innovative twice a year for the last 15 years.
> these new Macs seem to have gained an average of $200 over the preceding models of the same size. What makes Apple think they can get away with that? Apple can get away with that because it always has gotten away with it.
So, inflation has gone up 10.7 percent since 2010, which is just over $200 on a $2000 laptop.
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
Seems like a bogus assumption to suggest that Apple is "getting away" with something. What comparable companies with comparable products have left their prices untouched since 2010? The Big Mac went up more than 20% since 2010.
> Apple fanboys are proud to be the first and proud to have spent so much. It’s a luxury thing, I suppose. [...] This very durability presents a problem for Apple
I'm totally confused. Apple has a problem because it's products are too good? The products outlive your cheap shitty Windows laptops 3:1, yet only luxury and status explains why people buy Apple products?
> All Apple needs is a new product category, right? Another iMac, iPod, iPhone, iPad will do nicely. Where is it? It isn’t anywhere and in that sense Apple has lost its mojo.
Same argument every year. This one has been used every year that a new product category was introduced, because it's deemed not new enough. How many product categories have been introduced since Apple started, or even since the iMac? And how many years have elapsed since then? It's a strange myth or fail or arithmetic to think Apple has done something mind glowingly innovative twice a year for the last 15 years.
>> these new Macs seem to have gained an average of $200 over the preceding models of the same size. What makes Apple think they can get away with that? Apple can get away with that because it always has gotten away with it.
> So, inflation has gone up 10.7 percent since 2010, which is just over $200 on a $2000 laptop.
> http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
> Seems like a bogus assumption to suggest that Apple is "getting away" with something. What comparable companies with comparable products have left their prices untouched since 2010? The Big Mac went up more than 20% since 2010.
You're looking at the wrong data. The price index for personal computers and peripherals has decreased from 7.0 to 4.2 over that same period. Using the price index as a guide, a $2000 laptop in 2010 would be priced at $1200 today.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/long-term-price-trends-for-...
> So, inflation has gone up 10.7 percent since 2010, which is just over $200 on a $2000 laptop.
> http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
> Seems like a bogus assumption to suggest that Apple is "getting away" with something. What comparable companies with comparable products have left their prices untouched since 2010? The Big Mac went up more than 20% since 2010.
You're looking at the wrong data. The price index for personal computers and peripherals has decreased from 7.0 to 4.2 over that same period. Using the price index as a guide, a $2000 laptop in 2010 would be priced at $1200 today.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/long-term-price-trends-for-...
> Using the price index as a guide, a $2000 laptop in 2010 would be priced at $1200 today.
This is tracking specs for computers. The $1200 laptop today would have to have the exact same specs as the $2000 laptop from 2010. Does that even pass the smell test for thinking about pricing of a new product? I don't think so. That data is clearly essentially tracking Moore's law, showing that the price of any computer with a certain size hard drive and a certain size RAM has dropped by half every 2-4 years.
You're implying that Apple is stealing the gains and gouging the customers, where other companies' laptop have dropped in price 40% over the last 6 years, yet no such thing has occurred.
A decent Dell 15" laptop with similar hardware specs to the new MacBook Pro costs over $2000 vs Apple's $2400. That is more or less the same difference it was 6 years ago, and about as far back as I can remember. While Apple laptops are a little more expensive than same-spec laptops by other manufacturers, that difference did not go up by 50% with this new Macbook Pro, it has been about the same for as long as laptops have existed.
This is tracking specs for computers. The $1200 laptop today would have to have the exact same specs as the $2000 laptop from 2010. Does that even pass the smell test for thinking about pricing of a new product? I don't think so. That data is clearly essentially tracking Moore's law, showing that the price of any computer with a certain size hard drive and a certain size RAM has dropped by half every 2-4 years.
You're implying that Apple is stealing the gains and gouging the customers, where other companies' laptop have dropped in price 40% over the last 6 years, yet no such thing has occurred.
A decent Dell 15" laptop with similar hardware specs to the new MacBook Pro costs over $2000 vs Apple's $2400. That is more or less the same difference it was 6 years ago, and about as far back as I can remember. While Apple laptops are a little more expensive than same-spec laptops by other manufacturers, that difference did not go up by 50% with this new Macbook Pro, it has been about the same for as long as laptops have existed.
> This is tracking specs for computers. The $1200 laptop today would have to have the exact same specs as the $2000 laptop from 2010. Does that even pass the smell test for thinking about pricing of a new product? I don't think so. That data is clearly essentially tracking Moore's law, showing that the price of any computer with a certain size hard drive and a certain size RAM has dropped by half every 2-4 years.
The BLS has dedicated an entire FAQ page to answering the question of how they account for changes in quality with changes in price. They've thought about this question hard and I'm reasonably confident they have statisticians on staff whose full time jobs are dedicated to making sure the CPI isn't just regurgitating Moore's Law.
http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpihqaqanda.htm#Question_1
The BLS has dedicated an entire FAQ page to answering the question of how they account for changes in quality with changes in price. They've thought about this question hard and I'm reasonably confident they have statisticians on staff whose full time jobs are dedicated to making sure the CPI isn't just regurgitating Moore's Law.
http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpihqaqanda.htm#Question_1
Yes, you're right. They're validating Moore's Law with historical facts and statistics. That does not make this the right data to use, nor does this invalidate use of inflation as a metric.
I'm not questioning the data, I'm saying you are using it incorrectly.
This is not the right data with which to evaluate prices for new products in the market, this data is showing prices for equal-spec computers. A brand new MacBook Pro with a new touch strip interface and SSD and larger ram and brighter display and longer battery life and lightning connectors, does not compare dollar for dollar to the 2010 MacBook Pro. The price for the new one is expected to be higher than what the CPI shows.
Inflation isn't perfect for evaluating new products, but it's actually better than the CPI, because manufacturers are trying to get the same amount of money or more out of consumers every year, they are not allowing products to cost less and less. Historically, that's exactly what's happened. My family spent about $2500 on our first computer in 1983. Today I spend about $2000 on a computer. I've spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $2000 on every computer I've ever bought between 1983 and now. My expenditure doesn't track the CPI, and it never has. Nobody else's does either.
I'm not questioning the data, I'm saying you are using it incorrectly.
This is not the right data with which to evaluate prices for new products in the market, this data is showing prices for equal-spec computers. A brand new MacBook Pro with a new touch strip interface and SSD and larger ram and brighter display and longer battery life and lightning connectors, does not compare dollar for dollar to the 2010 MacBook Pro. The price for the new one is expected to be higher than what the CPI shows.
Inflation isn't perfect for evaluating new products, but it's actually better than the CPI, because manufacturers are trying to get the same amount of money or more out of consumers every year, they are not allowing products to cost less and less. Historically, that's exactly what's happened. My family spent about $2500 on our first computer in 1983. Today I spend about $2000 on a computer. I've spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $2000 on every computer I've ever bought between 1983 and now. My expenditure doesn't track the CPI, and it never has. Nobody else's does either.
For what it's worth I went to an apple store this weekend and actually played around with the new entry level, non-touch screen, 1499 13" mac book pro in space gray.
Not sure what all the fuss is about: that machine is awesome and reasonably priced by apple standards. It even has the esc key that everyone is whining about. It is indeed missing a few ports, but the machine itself is so solidly built and fast from my first interactions, that I am considering buying one. I'm going to wait for the touch screen ones first though.
Also for the record, I've ordered the XPS's and Lenovo's people are mentioning here are alternatives. They are decent machines, but it takes 2-3 tries to get a fully functioning one without QA issues.
Not sure what all the fuss is about: that machine is awesome and reasonably priced by apple standards. It even has the esc key that everyone is whining about. It is indeed missing a few ports, but the machine itself is so solidly built and fast from my first interactions, that I am considering buying one. I'm going to wait for the touch screen ones first though.
Also for the record, I've ordered the XPS's and Lenovo's people are mentioning here are alternatives. They are decent machines, but it takes 2-3 tries to get a fully functioning one without QA issues.
> Also for the record, I've ordered the XPS's and Lenovo's people are mentioning here are alternatives. They are decent machines, but it takes 2-3 tries to get a fully functioning one without QA issues.
One company I worked for offered to buy me any laptop I wanted. When I asked for a MacBook Pro, they talked me out of it and I got a Lenovo running Linux instead. The machine had great specs on paper, and it ran software just fine, but it was the worst laptop experience I've ever had. The trackpad was completely unusable, the keyboard & screen were crappy. It was fine as a desktop computer, when you plug in an external mouse & keyboard & monitor. It was truly awful as a laptop.
One company I worked for offered to buy me any laptop I wanted. When I asked for a MacBook Pro, they talked me out of it and I got a Lenovo running Linux instead. The machine had great specs on paper, and it ran software just fine, but it was the worst laptop experience I've ever had. The trackpad was completely unusable, the keyboard & screen were crappy. It was fine as a desktop computer, when you plug in an external mouse & keyboard & monitor. It was truly awful as a laptop.
I bought a Dell XPS-13 a couple of years ago with Ubuntu pre-installed. It seemed like a good idea to try out something new and give Dell the business to reward their support for desktop Linux.
Boy was that a mistake.
As I recall the laptop was only about $200 cheaper than an equivalent Macbook Air. In return I got a non-functioning trackpad [1], flaky Wifi NIC, and a lid that takes two hands to open. Oh, and the same non-replaceable hardware and limited port selection that people complain about on Macs. It would have been far better to get a Macbook and just install Ubuntu on it. Say what you will, but Apple hardware is really great.
p.s., The Dell laptop and I made our peace after I propitiated it with a USB Mouse. I still use it.
[1] http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3518/t/...
Boy was that a mistake.
As I recall the laptop was only about $200 cheaper than an equivalent Macbook Air. In return I got a non-functioning trackpad [1], flaky Wifi NIC, and a lid that takes two hands to open. Oh, and the same non-replaceable hardware and limited port selection that people complain about on Macs. It would have been far better to get a Macbook and just install Ubuntu on it. Say what you will, but Apple hardware is really great.
p.s., The Dell laptop and I made our peace after I propitiated it with a USB Mouse. I still use it.
[1] http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3518/t/...
"Also for the record, I've ordered the XPS's and Lenovo's people are mentioning here are alternatives. They are decent machines, but it takes 2-3 tries to get a fully functioning one without QA issues."
Citation needed. The implication that 1/2 to 2/3 of Dell XPS and Lenovo laptops fail QA would seem to be ... big news.
Citation needed. The implication that 1/2 to 2/3 of Dell XPS and Lenovo laptops fail QA would seem to be ... big news.
Apple is now waiting so long between computer updates that inflation is a meaningful consideration for the price. That's pretty depressing.
So the whole point of this article is to get to his magical idea, that Apple should somehow hire all the screenwriters and be then be granted the streaming rights for all of their work? Just a tiny problem (well many problems, but this is the most glaring) in all that:
The companies who actually pay for and produce the movies, films, documentaries, etc would never agree to it.
The companies who actually pay for and produce the movies, films, documentaries, etc would never agree to it.
There seems to be a lot of frustration about Apple not being able to finish negotiations with the US broadcast networks for some form of video streaming service.
This looks like Cringely's solution to the problem: just own the content at the source of creation and then the downwind problems will sort themselves out in Apple's favor.
My idea? Apple should purchase Dish Network/EchoStar and merge their satellite and Sling systems into the Apple ecosystem.
(You also get to own a fleet of deployed geosync satellites. That could be cool for other applications down the line).
This looks like Cringely's solution to the problem: just own the content at the source of creation and then the downwind problems will sort themselves out in Apple's favor.
My idea? Apple should purchase Dish Network/EchoStar and merge their satellite and Sling systems into the Apple ecosystem.
(You also get to own a fleet of deployed geosync satellites. That could be cool for other applications down the line).
That's hilarious. "Corner the market in screenwriters". As if Hollywood isn't better at fighting dirty in that kind of environment than most other businesses.
Trying to produce a vertically integrated lock-in based system where you can only watch the latest shows on a multi-thousand dollar computer is also going to go down very badly with the public.
Trying to produce a vertically integrated lock-in based system where you can only watch the latest shows on a multi-thousand dollar computer is also going to go down very badly with the public.
Yeh I agree, I think this is another "Apple need to do more" even though they actually literally don't need to do more.
They're a public tech company. If they don't grow like cancer they will die.
They grew so big, they can now afford to sit at cruising altitude and release a few updates here and there.
If they're not growing to your liking, blame consumers for handing over all that cash year after year just for the Apple brand, and hopefully a useful product that turns on, turns off and all those other fancy things.
If they're not growing to your liking, blame consumers for handing over all that cash year after year just for the Apple brand, and hopefully a useful product that turns on, turns off and all those other fancy things.
I'm not saying I care that they grow like that, but the market does.
I found the idea to be startling in this context. However, the idea itself isn't all that crazy. I believe CAA (Creative Artist Agency) had done something similar to sell their bundled talent packages for movies. If I remember correctly they bought up a huge amount of screenplay rights and then bundled them with their own actors, directors, etc.
The main point of the article is for a noted tech industry observer (and one-time Apple employee) to say what he sees when he looks at Apple right now.
The magical idea is just a lark thrown in for amusement. Cringely often tosses out semi-crazy ideas as entertainment.
The magical idea is just a lark thrown in for amusement. Cringely often tosses out semi-crazy ideas as entertainment.
Good point. It's also generally a bad idea because it eliminates the pressure for novice writers to "write like your life depends on it."
He's right - Apple has a numbers problem ins that they need to have any potential investment be a big product category almost immediately. They've been notoriously careful to avoid random development in the public eye. When they have come to the market with half-baked products (Maps, AppleTV, iCloud/Mobile Me) they've tended to double down on them, rather than walk them backwards.
The highly integrated approach they've taken to hardware, software, and services across Watch, phone, tablet, computer, apps and a number of accessories have put them in an awkward place. They need to integrate more things into the stack, and whatever they choose needs to be almost immediately integrated into the full stack. HomeKit has been an effort to jump into the IoT with a better platform. Seemingly, Apple's main strategy now is to rely on the accessories or apps to highlight opportunities (siri, maps, etc) and then buy them and integrate them. I suggest that Apple should probably buy Sonos to continue pushing HomeKit and to follow on their acquisition of Beats, especially given the tighter integration that Sonos now has with the Apple ecosystem.
The lack of an obvious target for complete ecosystem integration is not only their lack of creativity, but the lack of obvious consumer demand for additional pieces of the puzzle. CarPlay is very nice, but it doesn't change car buying behavior, it is more like icing on the deal.
Finally, this leaves Software, which Apple has been investing less in since creating the app store. They've become comfortable as a platform company and have been unable to beat Adobe and others in the pro app market. To any professional, Software should be the obvious target, but it seems the vast majority of Apple's customers don't care enough to seek alternatives to Apple's apps. I think the lack of focus on pro software is what is really behind the lack of newer pro-level machines, since I suspect that APple's engineers on the software side were really the ones pushing for greater levels of machine performance (Logic, Aperture, Final Cut X).
Right now, Apple has Breadth in their stack, and they need depth. Software is the way to build depth, but it is not clear that Apple has anyone who understands software beyond OS-level details.
The highly integrated approach they've taken to hardware, software, and services across Watch, phone, tablet, computer, apps and a number of accessories have put them in an awkward place. They need to integrate more things into the stack, and whatever they choose needs to be almost immediately integrated into the full stack. HomeKit has been an effort to jump into the IoT with a better platform. Seemingly, Apple's main strategy now is to rely on the accessories or apps to highlight opportunities (siri, maps, etc) and then buy them and integrate them. I suggest that Apple should probably buy Sonos to continue pushing HomeKit and to follow on their acquisition of Beats, especially given the tighter integration that Sonos now has with the Apple ecosystem.
The lack of an obvious target for complete ecosystem integration is not only their lack of creativity, but the lack of obvious consumer demand for additional pieces of the puzzle. CarPlay is very nice, but it doesn't change car buying behavior, it is more like icing on the deal.
Finally, this leaves Software, which Apple has been investing less in since creating the app store. They've become comfortable as a platform company and have been unable to beat Adobe and others in the pro app market. To any professional, Software should be the obvious target, but it seems the vast majority of Apple's customers don't care enough to seek alternatives to Apple's apps. I think the lack of focus on pro software is what is really behind the lack of newer pro-level machines, since I suspect that APple's engineers on the software side were really the ones pushing for greater levels of machine performance (Logic, Aperture, Final Cut X).
Right now, Apple has Breadth in their stack, and they need depth. Software is the way to build depth, but it is not clear that Apple has anyone who understands software beyond OS-level details.
With regard to CarPlay I disagree. I will never buy a car that doesn't support it or Android Auto. The software that car manufacturers create suck. I'd rather have no computer interface - all knobs and buttons - than deal with the garbage that car manufacturers use.
I know I am just one data point but pretty much everyone thinks that the infotainment systems that car manufacturers create is junk. As CarPlay increases in use I think the demand for it will increase as well.
I know I am just one data point but pretty much everyone thinks that the infotainment systems that car manufacturers create is junk. As CarPlay increases in use I think the demand for it will increase as well.
I purchased a new car 6 months ago, and quickly realized one of my key buying points was (well, not CarPlay but) Android Auto. I very quickly stopped looking at any cars that didn't have it. This eliminated some entire companies.
Interesting data point: one of the Ford models I was considering _still_ has it listed as "Coming soon". Glad I skipped that one.
Having used it for the past 6 months, it's now a basic part of my car-buying checklist.
Interesting data point: one of the Ford models I was considering _still_ has it listed as "Coming soon". Glad I skipped that one.
Having used it for the past 6 months, it's now a basic part of my car-buying checklist.
I'd much rather have all knobs and buttons for car interfaces. I can feel the fear every time I look down to adjust anything on a touch screen. I pretty much won't do it while moving. It's horrifying to know so many people are driving around with it now.
I have CarPlay on my Spark and all the audio controls for audio playback are mapped to the steering wheel. The rest is controlled by voice using Siri. E.g, "open podcasts", "call Jesse", "directions to work".
The interfaces car manufactures build are horrible. Once you try CarPlay or likely the Android equivalent you'll never go back.
The interfaces car manufactures build are horrible. Once you try CarPlay or likely the Android equivalent you'll never go back.
I have Carplay and it is a disappointment. It crashes and freezes up. Maps is better in the latest iOS but it is still horrible. I prefer Honda's Pandora to the one in Carplay.
Overall my best options for music are SiriusXM, USB flash drives, the Honda Pandora, and the Honda iPod interface. None of these involve Carplay. Also, Carplay requires a corded hookup. The Bluetooth in my car lets me make calls without hooking anything up.
I don't know if Honda's setup is atypically decent, but after buying the car in part because of Carplay, I now don't use Carplay.
Overall my best options for music are SiriusXM, USB flash drives, the Honda Pandora, and the Honda iPod interface. None of these involve Carplay. Also, Carplay requires a corded hookup. The Bluetooth in my car lets me make calls without hooking anything up.
I don't know if Honda's setup is atypically decent, but after buying the car in part because of Carplay, I now don't use Carplay.
That has not been my experience. I much prefer CarPlay to what Honda and others offer. I think car manufacturers are going to have to pick which set of clients to cater too. It seems to me that having both systems will be too expensive for them.
> it is not clear that Apple has anyone who understands software beyond OS-level details
That's a pretty broad statement to make! What does it take for someone to qualify as understanding software?
That's a pretty broad statement to make! What does it take for someone to qualify as understanding software?
I'll clarify, they understand how to write software, but not what software to write.
They killed Aperture rather than compete with Lightroom, despite many people still using it. They replaced iPhoto with Photos (which is TERRIBLE, even for consumers). They replaced Final Cut with Final Cut X which eliminated half of the features at launch. iMovie loses random features with every major update (cut/paste across projects? really?) I don't need to really explain the number of things wrong with iTunes. The Mac App store itself doesn't work that well, except in highlighting the poor reviews of Apple's own apps.
imovie: 2 stars garageband: 3.5 stars Pages: 3 stars numbers: 3.5 stars facetime: 2 stars apple remote desktop: 3.5 stars apple configurator: 2.5 stars macOS server: 3 stars.
Now, nearly 2 years later, Final Cut and Logic have passed 4 stars, but they no longer offer a real photo editor of any kind, and they replaced Aperture/iPhoto with a pathetic iOS clone app.
So, I think I'm on pretty solid ground saying they don't get it.
They killed Aperture rather than compete with Lightroom, despite many people still using it. They replaced iPhoto with Photos (which is TERRIBLE, even for consumers). They replaced Final Cut with Final Cut X which eliminated half of the features at launch. iMovie loses random features with every major update (cut/paste across projects? really?) I don't need to really explain the number of things wrong with iTunes. The Mac App store itself doesn't work that well, except in highlighting the poor reviews of Apple's own apps.
imovie: 2 stars garageband: 3.5 stars Pages: 3 stars numbers: 3.5 stars facetime: 2 stars apple remote desktop: 3.5 stars apple configurator: 2.5 stars macOS server: 3 stars.
Now, nearly 2 years later, Final Cut and Logic have passed 4 stars, but they no longer offer a real photo editor of any kind, and they replaced Aperture/iPhoto with a pathetic iOS clone app.
So, I think I'm on pretty solid ground saying they don't get it.
I've been a Mac user since I was old enough to crawl, so I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. However it would seem the issue these days is actually that they're unable to prioritize the right product decisions for their customers, because of the internal mechanisms which ensure their short-term continued growth. A symptom of the modern world, IMO….
Ive been a mac user since i could crawl in the 80s. Die hard power user. Loved the brand and product even though i have no real brand loyalty.
Switched to full linux and windows around osx 10.3 and never regretted it. Even without final cut or imovie.
Switched to full linux and windows around osx 10.3 and never regretted it. Even without final cut or imovie.
Ever do any Mac or iOS development? Still trying to figure out how to do that on Linux. If I could, I would switch immediately.
So Apple needs to do a whiteboard interview?
CarPlay ABSOLUTELY changes car buying behaviour, at least in some instances.
In one case I heard of, a young lady bought a car with CarPlay, and when it didn't work, she tried to make the dealership buy it back under a lemon law. The dealership made Car Play work, and she kept the car.
In one case I heard of, a young lady bought a car with CarPlay, and when it didn't work, she tried to make the dealership buy it back under a lemon law. The dealership made Car Play work, and she kept the car.
Indeed! I don't want it or the Android one.
Even when it comes to Apple, I cannot be assured that it will even work in 4 years much less the 8 or 10 that I usually keep my cars.
Even when it comes to Apple, I cannot be assured that it will even work in 4 years much less the 8 or 10 that I usually keep my cars.
Cars with Android Auto and Apple CarPlay still have the automaker's UI, whatever that may be, or you can buy third party "radios" that replace the head unit.
CarPlay will change my buying behavior!
If I want to buy a car (used or new) and find out that it has CarPlay I will go back because I refuse to buy an iPhone and it wont work with my Android so what's the point?
Edit: why so many down votes?
If I want to buy a car (used or new) and find out that it has CarPlay I will go back because I refuse to buy an iPhone and it wont work with my Android so what's the point?
Edit: why so many down votes?
Most cars with CarPlay also have Android Auto.
CarPlay is basically an authentication and media streaming station, while Android Auto is basically AndroidOs.
They are very different in terms of architecture and wouldn't be surprised to see manufacturers stick with one or another to reduce cost.
They are very different in terms of architecture and wouldn't be surprised to see manufacturers stick with one or another to reduce cost.
GM offers both wherever it offers one; I cannot speak for other OEMs. (I work for GM)
>I will double down because I refuse to buy an iPhone
Doubling down is a term from black jack where you double your bet because you think you have a good chance of winning. So in this case, you will offer double the money to buy a car because it has a feature you don't want?
Doubling down is a term from black jack where you double your bet because you think you have a good chance of winning. So in this case, you will offer double the money to buy a car because it has a feature you don't want?
Thanks for clearing that up for me. English is my 3rd language and I must have picked up that idiomatic expression in the wrong context.
Hands up who would happily trade 5mm extra thickness for 32G, 8 cores and a bigger battery? For me its a no-brainer... And I'll wager for anyone else who wants a workhorse not a fashion accessory...
I just want to meet the consumer who looked at the old MBP and thought, "wow this is far too thick!". And the same goes for cell phones. Thinner is better, but only to a certain point and certainly not at the expense of battery life and features.
Ok I'll bite. I'd like the power of the 15" MBP, but after having the 15" in 2008 which I found to be too heavy to carry with me in my bag constantly, I've always bought the 13" Mac laptop (had a 2011 Air, now a 2015 Pro). I find the current 13" Pro to be about as heavy as I would like to comfortable carry in my backpack for hours at a time. I appreciate that the new 15" MBP is only .5 lbs heaver than the current 13" Pro which makes it a real option for me.
The real question:
If the new 15" MBP was the same weight as last generation and included the new Kaby Lake processor, more RAM, better battery, etc. would you pass on it for the weight?
If the new 15" MBP was the same weight as last generation and included the new Kaby Lake processor, more RAM, better battery, etc. would you pass on it for the weight?
You could say that about every feature though. If they hadn't bothered improving the battery but had refreshed the processor, RAM, and dropped the weight, would you pass on that just for the battery? Each individual feature is going to be marginal for most users, but together they add up to making the upgrade worthwhile.
Yeah, I agree. I have a 15" MBP from 2008 and that thing is heavy. Was eyeing the 13" only for the weight.
That's why there used to be two lines: the Air and the Pro. The new MBPs announced the past week feel more like ultraportable machines versus potential desktop-replacement workhouses.
If Apple had the same announcement last week, but instead of calling MBP and calling it just the MacBook, people wouldn't be in as much of an uproar (aside from the fact that the MBPs are delayed yet again).
USB-C and thinness are great--no one is arguing against that--but for a Pro line, to sacrifice utility and power is foolhardy. However it seems like Apple is going down some path of convergence, which doesn't look good for many professionals.
If Apple had the same announcement last week, but instead of calling MBP and calling it just the MacBook, people wouldn't be in as much of an uproar (aside from the fact that the MBPs are delayed yet again).
USB-C and thinness are great--no one is arguing against that--but for a Pro line, to sacrifice utility and power is foolhardy. However it seems like Apple is going down some path of convergence, which doesn't look good for many professionals.
>> I just want to meet the consumer who looked at the old MBP and thought, "wow this is far too thick!". And the same goes for cell phones. Thinner is better, but only to a certain point and certainly not at the expense of battery life and features.
> Ok I'll bite. I'd like the power of the 15" MBP, but after having the 15" in 2008 which I found to be too heavy to carry with me in my bag constantly
He was talking about thickness, not weight. Those are correlated, to a degree, but it seems like Apple has compromised on things in its quest for thinness that it wouldn't have had to in a quest for lightness.
> Ok I'll bite. I'd like the power of the 15" MBP, but after having the 15" in 2008 which I found to be too heavy to carry with me in my bag constantly
He was talking about thickness, not weight. Those are correlated, to a degree, but it seems like Apple has compromised on things in its quest for thinness that it wouldn't have had to in a quest for lightness.
I just want to meet the consumer [...]
I don't think consumers care at all. I have some non-tech family members/friends who buy a new MacBook every two or three years. Not because they have specific new features that they want. They are happy with a Mac and want to have the latest and greatest, just because plus high resale value after that time period. Though, I expect that many consumers will skip this generation, simply because they don't want to drop 79 Euro on Apple's USB-C to VGA/HDMI connector.
As for compromising features for thinness and weight: the 2nd generation Air was very popular and had relatively weak CPUs and only 2GB RAM in the base models.
I don't think consumers care at all. I have some non-tech family members/friends who buy a new MacBook every two or three years. Not because they have specific new features that they want. They are happy with a Mac and want to have the latest and greatest, just because plus high resale value after that time period. Though, I expect that many consumers will skip this generation, simply because they don't want to drop 79 Euro on Apple's USB-C to VGA/HDMI connector.
As for compromising features for thinness and weight: the 2nd generation Air was very popular and had relatively weak CPUs and only 2GB RAM in the base models.
I don't think consumers care at all. I have some non-tech family members/friends
Right but this is the Pro model...
Right but this is the Pro model...
As a digital nomad I need something thats capable enough to let me run my business while traveling but is still light as possible. I upgrade every 2 1/2 years or so and was always skipping over the Macbook Pro for the fully optioned 13" Macbook Air instead--the 8GB RAM limit was the bottleneck for me but I didn't want the extra weight to go up to the MBP, and didn't like the small screen on the MB.
The fully loaded 13" MBP I just ordered is about the same weight and size which can easily be lugged around in a day bag without being too heavy and lets me get the 16GB of RAM I wanted - happy days.
The fully loaded 13" MBP I just ordered is about the same weight and size which can easily be lugged around in a day bag without being too heavy and lets me get the 16GB of RAM I wanted - happy days.
I currently use a Vostro 17" beast (7lbs) as I really don't care about thinness or lightness at all, I'm a 200lb 6ft bloke so carrying it around/resting it on my knee isn't an issue.
This trend towards thin/light everything at the expense of upgrade-ability and repair-ability confuses me but I'm not the target demographic.
This trend towards thin/light everything at the expense of upgrade-ability and repair-ability confuses me but I'm not the target demographic.
Probably depends on what you do. And, I've luckily really never had to repair a laptop. Never drop my phone either, except a tragic drop of a blackberry pearl from 2 feet onto concrete that killed it.
60% or my work is through SSH, 30% writing in outlook, and 10% in various trace analyzers and debuggers. When it came time to upgrade my work laptop, I just asked for the lightest one I could get. A 15" with an extended battery I felt was irritatingly heavy to lug around.
My personal laptop is a 2009 Dell 13". Not very thin, but light.
(Irritatingly enough, outlook is probably more demanding on my laptop than the debuggers and analyzers)
60% or my work is through SSH, 30% writing in outlook, and 10% in various trace analyzers and debuggers. When it came time to upgrade my work laptop, I just asked for the lightest one I could get. A 15" with an extended battery I felt was irritatingly heavy to lug around.
My personal laptop is a 2009 Dell 13". Not very thin, but light.
(Irritatingly enough, outlook is probably more demanding on my laptop than the debuggers and analyzers)
Absolutely depends on what I do, I don't travel on planes and 99% of laptop usage is client meetings, sofa programming (that is in the sofa not programming the sofa though with IoT that won't be long) and coffee shops so big and heavy isnt an issue if it gets me the things I want.
I'd like to see that used on a plane in economy. Given that I travel a lot and don't always end up in business/first, this is one of the first questions I ask myself when considering any new laptop.
But how does extreme thinness help there?
I got alot of work done on planes with what passed for a laptop in the 1990s...
I got alot of work done on planes with what passed for a laptop in the 1990s...
Not so much size, but weight. If your carry-on allowance is 7kg and you don't check baggage, having a laptop that weighs 3kg like the Vostro 17" is a big deal. If you've got a heavy laptop, you've got to either bring less stuff with you on your trip, or go through the hassle of checking baggage.
What percentage of your time over it's entire lifespan is spent using a it on a plane?
Being a 6' tall 200lb person will be worse in economy than whatever laptop you're trying to use.
Performance is the single biggest issue keeping me from getting a new MBP.
16GB just flat out isn't enough.
16GB just flat out isn't enough.
What on earth would you want/need 32G or 8 cores for? My laptop is for doing work but that just sounds like an obscene spec unless you're doing 3D rendering on it or something. 16G is plenty, and while I'm not that fussed about thinness per se I wouldn't want my laptop to be any heavier.
I want to run lots of VMs to simulate different network topologies. But lots of people these days can make good use of power: 3D as you say, CFD and FEA and other engineering applications, computational chemistry or bio, machine learning, financial modelling...
If I was running network simulations I'd certainly run all those VMs on a server cluster and not my laptop.
My iMac with 32G of memory sometimes gives me even out of memory dialogs because Safari has leaked about 30 gigabytes of memory by sitting idle with many tabs open. Reopening Safari fixes this, but it shows that these days even web browsing can put an enormous pressure onto the memory usage. And if you are running VMs on your machine you can use up 32G fast.
The thing is, the macbook pro is Apples "workstation" machine, by price and by the fact that they don't offer many alternatives. So people expect it to support workstation loads, and 32G and 8 cores is not excessive for that today.
The thing is, the macbook pro is Apples "workstation" machine, by price and by the fact that they don't offer many alternatives. So people expect it to support workstation loads, and 32G and 8 cores is not excessive for that today.
I want my laptop to still have enough memory for workloads 3 years from now, too. My VMs keep getting bigger; browsers (and web apps) keep demanding ever more RAM; image and video resolutions keep increasing and demanding more memory to edit; the websites I develop are designed for ever beefier servers.
"640K ought to be enough for anybody"
I use my MBP for dev work, and would love to have faster compile times for example
I use my MBP for dev work, and would love to have faster compile times for example
Ive 16gb but everything fits under 8.
Til i kick in an osx vm. Then i need an additional 8gb easily. Macosx tends to eat memory for breakfast
Til i kick in an osx vm. Then i need an additional 8gb easily. Macosx tends to eat memory for breakfast
The P in MBP stands for Professional.
Yes especially since the new macbook pro is 250g lighter but you have to carry 250g in adapters...
I have a macbook for portability but for the macbook pro, I don't need it to be light or thinner, I need it to be powerful.
I have a macbook for portability but for the macbook pro, I don't need it to be light or thinner, I need it to be powerful.
The proposed idea is interesting, where interesting means stupid.
If Apple wants to dominate music industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for songwriters.
If Apple wants to dominate software industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for programmers.
If Apple wants to dominate computer industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for EE guys.
If Apple wants to dominate the flower industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for horticulturists and maybe buy some bees?
Naivety of couch analysts with no clue how certain industry works and why so is always amusing and irritating at the same time.
If Apple wants to dominate music industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for songwriters.
If Apple wants to dominate software industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for programmers.
If Apple wants to dominate computer industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for EE guys.
If Apple wants to dominate the flower industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for horticulturists and maybe buy some bees?
Naivety of couch analysts with no clue how certain industry works and why so is always amusing and irritating at the same time.
I think the bigger idea is to think outside the box. Apple has stacks of cash to experiment with. This is precisely the sort of thinking it should take into consideration, spending big on wild ideas to see what works.
Perhaps the _exact_ idea he mentions isn't solid, but the spirit of it is true.
Perhaps the _exact_ idea he mentions isn't solid, but the spirit of it is true.
That's a valid viewpoint and a valid idea, especially considering Apple's history. I don't think that's what author meant though. He's straight-up proposing vertical integration. That's not vague direction, that's a concrete proposal of direction. Doesn't matter which segment of business.
I'm not asking this as a joke or facetious question but are you familiar with Cringely? I personally wouldn't categorize him as a couch analyst. Maybe checkout his Wikipedia entry or Youtube for "Triumph of the Nerds", he has been around the block.
Yes, I am very familiar with his work. I think he is a great interviewer, but analyst - not so very much. For example, watch his interview with Autodesk founder. I can't find it on my phone now, but it's out there (an old interview). It pretty much dissected how Autodesk became what it is. their strategy from the start was to straight out buy competition. Something that became evident over the years, but first time I've heard that was there.
Wikipedia says this guy has been around the block as a couch analyst.
"If Apple wants to dominate music industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for songwriters."
Why is this one self obviously stupid? Maybe song writers, and maybe TV and movie writers, are under valued and there really is a huge arbitrage opportunity there?
"If Apple wants to dominate software industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for programmers."
Like the App Store? Gave any programmer on Earth a low friction way to access consumers and take payments with very little up front effort. Not a bad baseline, given what existed before.
Why is this one self obviously stupid? Maybe song writers, and maybe TV and movie writers, are under valued and there really is a huge arbitrage opportunity there?
"If Apple wants to dominate software industry, all it has to do is to create a baseline support for programmers."
Like the App Store? Gave any programmer on Earth a low friction way to access consumers and take payments with very little up front effort. Not a bad baseline, given what existed before.
Platform for something isn't bad idea. Base guaranteed income within that system is. As with programmers, writers that are good find work and are appreciated. Not all, but most. It's not a world where there are a huge number of great writers who aren't getting paid well, or that there are a huge number of great writers who can't get a foot in the door where they could make money. It's not like that at all. Especially today.
Reading his "about" section was enough for me to close his page. I can't take serious anything said by someone like him.
Calling an idea "stupid" without explaining why isn't constructive.
The explanation was implicit, but I will elaborate it for you.
What he is proposing is a vertical integration within an industry that doesn't work like that. It did once (studio model) and that crumbled for various reasons (I can elaborate on that too if you want). On top of vertical integration, he is proposing a base income. Sort of like accelerators, but communist version. In a sense where selected writers would have income to fall back on, whether they work or not (whether they're motivated to work on quality or quantity or not at all).
edit: here's a bit of background on Studio system of ye olde https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_system
What he is proposing is a vertical integration within an industry that doesn't work like that. It did once (studio model) and that crumbled for various reasons (I can elaborate on that too if you want). On top of vertical integration, he is proposing a base income. Sort of like accelerators, but communist version. In a sense where selected writers would have income to fall back on, whether they work or not (whether they're motivated to work on quality or quantity or not at all).
edit: here's a bit of background on Studio system of ye olde https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_system
"So Goldman Sachs is upset that Apple didn’t at least bid for Time Warner. I’m pretty sure Apple didn’t even know Time Warner was for sale."
Is there really any person, anywhere, who isn't absolutely certain that in ten years time we will all look back on the time warner / ATT merger and how badly it turned out and the 20 billion dollar write off and blah blah blah ?
In fact, in this case, the actual company in question has already been the subject of the very same narrative - the disaster that was the AOL/TW merger.[1]
It's incredible to watch the people who spent all of their B-school years studying these train wrecks dive right into a new (but almost identical) train wreck of their own. Goldman complaining about Apple not being involved is either stupidity or a selfish for the m&a fees that would have resulted.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Warner#Merger_with_AOL
Is there really any person, anywhere, who isn't absolutely certain that in ten years time we will all look back on the time warner / ATT merger and how badly it turned out and the 20 billion dollar write off and blah blah blah ?
In fact, in this case, the actual company in question has already been the subject of the very same narrative - the disaster that was the AOL/TW merger.[1]
It's incredible to watch the people who spent all of their B-school years studying these train wrecks dive right into a new (but almost identical) train wreck of their own. Goldman complaining about Apple not being involved is either stupidity or a selfish for the m&a fees that would have resulted.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Warner#Merger_with_AOL
The fact that this post is on the front page is evidence that the most demanding users of laptops, including software developers, feel they are being IGNORED by Apple.
I believe this creates a window of opportunity for other vendors to offer top-of-the-line Linux/Unix-friendly laptops. Many people here, including me, would jump at the chance to buy a high-quality Linux laptop without the MacBook Pro's nonsensical limitations.
I believe this creates a window of opportunity for other vendors to offer top-of-the-line Linux/Unix-friendly laptops. Many people here, including me, would jump at the chance to buy a high-quality Linux laptop without the MacBook Pro's nonsensical limitations.
Truth. As somebody who has used Linux on Thinkpads for years, I know there's a lot of suppressed demand there too. A lot of people feel that things have gone steadily downhill since Lenovo took over.
Indeed. I'd already bailed for a ThinkPad a few months ago, but the rest of our office was still solidly Mac. My company was ready to upgrade, but the new MacBook Pro isn't going to be a good fit for us. That's about $25K we will be spending elsewhere.
I didn't leave Apple; Apple left me.
I didn't leave Apple; Apple left me.
I know we're not meant to do "me too" comments on HackerNews but me too.
For the life of me I do not know why one of the top Linux distro makers hasn't attempted this. Or even a consortium of them? The top ten distros on Distrowatch are:
For the life of me I do not know why one of the top Linux distro makers hasn't attempted this. Or even a consortium of them? The top ten distros on Distrowatch are:
1 Mint
2 Debian
3 Ubuntu
4 openSUSE
5 elementary
6 Manjaro
7 Fedora
8 Zorin
9 CentOS
10 ArchIt would have to be a hardware manufacturer choosing a Linux distribution. They would have to expect more sales than the cost of development. Contrast that with market share and growth of the Linux desktop. It's historically not been worth it to them.
https://system76.com
It's not as pretty as a Macbook, but they do exist.
It's not as pretty as a Macbook, but they do exist.
I am looking forward to a diaspora of developers from MacOS adding a lot of activity and tooling to popular Linux distros.
There's only so much innovating you can do on a laptop or handheld device. It's time for Apple and the rest of the big tech companies to start focusing on moonshot ideas: like teleportation, trains, transportation, perhaps even an iHouse. The iHouse could be a modular unit that can move around the city when you need to move, thus plugging into any other iInfrastructure areas, making moving much easier and reducing commutes, saving the environment and huge amounts of time and money.
Unfortunately, no company will be able to do the above, because government prevents all of that from happening. The next 100 years will be a period of great innovative stagnation, until people and voters understand that innovation must first be legalized before it can occur. And we haven't even begun to educate voters and politicians on these matters, so it's going to take a looong time.
Unfortunately, no company will be able to do the above, because government prevents all of that from happening. The next 100 years will be a period of great innovative stagnation, until people and voters understand that innovation must first be legalized before it can occur. And we haven't even begun to educate voters and politicians on these matters, so it's going to take a looong time.
I don't want Apple to stuff around with teleportation (or more realistically... cars)
I just want them to make a pro laptop
I just want them to make a pro laptop
Why?
What if Google had just stuck to search? Would your life be better?
What if Google had just stuck to search? Would your life be better?
Tesla/Solar City is better positioned for iHouse.
[deleted]
The comment on Apple at industry conferences is a bit of a misnomer. I've seen at least 12-15 Apple engineers (from the backend Siri team) at MesosCon this year and last year when I went. In fact, they gave a talk[1] about how the re-did the entire Siri backend ontop of Mesos and it has became much more reliable as a result.
[1] https://mesosphere.com/blog/2015/04/23/apple-details-j-a-r-v...
[1] https://mesosphere.com/blog/2015/04/23/apple-details-j-a-r-v...
Seems a repeat of what we have seen at Microsoft, HP, and many other companies.
Apple has become too reliant on iPhone and unsure how to look beyond it.
Either they would have to shake the leadership team up like Microsoft or split the company up.
Apple has become too reliant on iPhone and unsure how to look beyond it.
Either they would have to shake the leadership team up like Microsoft or split the company up.
But they do, and they have. The iPad was huge and sold very, very well, and still is one of their top products, even though the market has become saturated because newer iterations aren't as big steps forwards as it was with the iphone, and people are less likely to upgrade ipads because they don't need to (and there's less incentive like with the 2-3 year phone plans).
And the Mac has always been their core product, especially since Apple's comeback with the imac. It's no longer their main source of income, but it's a very strong brand that had consistently been getting more and more market share over time. It probably didn't have the huge margin and volume of the iphone, but it'd be a critical error if they were to discontinue it. They should invest more in it, I think; rebrand the new Macbook Pro to just Macbook, come out with a new line of Pros that are bigger again (with pro hardware and features, for the discerning user), update the Mac Pro, etc.
And the Mac has always been their core product, especially since Apple's comeback with the imac. It's no longer their main source of income, but it's a very strong brand that had consistently been getting more and more market share over time. It probably didn't have the huge margin and volume of the iphone, but it'd be a critical error if they were to discontinue it. They should invest more in it, I think; rebrand the new Macbook Pro to just Macbook, come out with a new line of Pros that are bigger again (with pro hardware and features, for the discerning user), update the Mac Pro, etc.
And before the Mac they had a revolutionary product too ...
Aren't they allowed to sit on the iPhone? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
Personally I think the touch-bar thing on the Mac is unremarkable, even a gimmick. Why would anyone want the furniture moving around on their keyboard? I could be wrong, I suppose if it's highly customizable then it will be handy for programmable shortcuts.
In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
Personally I think the touch-bar thing on the Mac is unremarkable, even a gimmick. Why would anyone want the furniture moving around on their keyboard? I could be wrong, I suppose if it's highly customizable then it will be handy for programmable shortcuts.
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the iPhone? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
Apple cannot rest on their laurels because if they stop innovating Android manufactures will implement all of their features and sell the phones for cheaper than an iPhone. The Google Pixel is a killer phone and could easily steal some iPhone market share if a new iPhone does not keep iterating with new features.
If Apple keeps removing two features for every new one that they add, that's going to upset some customers.
Apple cannot rest on their laurels because if they stop innovating Android manufactures will implement all of their features and sell the phones for cheaper than an iPhone. The Google Pixel is a killer phone and could easily steal some iPhone market share if a new iPhone does not keep iterating with new features.
If Apple keeps removing two features for every new one that they add, that's going to upset some customers.
Phone markets aren't really about features; Android phones already out-feature (although not out-perform) iPhones all over the place. It's the usability and image that Apple sells on. And Apple believe - sometimes correctly - that removing features improves usability. Or at least keeping them coherent.
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the iPhone? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
If you're not growing, you're stagnating or declining. If Apple don't continue to innovate, then someone else will pick up the baton. Android continues to get better and better as a mobile OS, and the Android ecosystem continues to get better too. Linux and Windows both have some improvements over macOS, although macOS is better than them in other ways; if Apple continues to under-invest here then there won't be much reason to run its software, meaning there won't be much reason to buy its hardware. We've already seen that Apple's hardware itself is not as good as it could be, which means that offerings from other companies are comparatively more competitive.
> In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
I don't know if I'd go that far. On the one hand, cars haven't radically changed in decades (they still have four tyres, a steering wheel, windows, seats; most use internal-combustion engines), but OTOH they have changed: roll cages, crush zones, airbags, infotainment systems, heated & cooled seats, more intelligence, electric engines.
And indeed it's the models which do offer the most innovation which get the most attention. I don't know if they're the most profitable though.
If you're not growing, you're stagnating or declining. If Apple don't continue to innovate, then someone else will pick up the baton. Android continues to get better and better as a mobile OS, and the Android ecosystem continues to get better too. Linux and Windows both have some improvements over macOS, although macOS is better than them in other ways; if Apple continues to under-invest here then there won't be much reason to run its software, meaning there won't be much reason to buy its hardware. We've already seen that Apple's hardware itself is not as good as it could be, which means that offerings from other companies are comparatively more competitive.
> In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
I don't know if I'd go that far. On the one hand, cars haven't radically changed in decades (they still have four tyres, a steering wheel, windows, seats; most use internal-combustion engines), but OTOH they have changed: roll cages, crush zones, airbags, infotainment systems, heated & cooled seats, more intelligence, electric engines.
And indeed it's the models which do offer the most innovation which get the most attention. I don't know if they're the most profitable though.
When built in sat-navs came on the scene, apparently many people still preferred to use their dedicated satnav devices such as Garmins because the built-in varieties in their fancy new car were prone to bad UX, inferior performance, and difficulties with updating the maps and so on. No doubt sorted out in many cases, but this was a widespread problem, an example of the pitfalls of eager innovation.
I'm sure Apple will be fine. Their first attempt at the iPad Pro wasn't received that well, but they'll fix that and deliver something good next year. I'm actually on the lookout for a tablet I can draw on, but I'm hesitant to buy a Surface Pro because I don't trust Windows 10. I don't want my OS to be a service with mandatory updates and whatever other control they take away, but then again that's where Apple are headed too. I prefer the OS to be in the background, out of sight, not pushing itself to the foreground, desperate for attention and relevance.
I'm sure Apple will be fine. Their first attempt at the iPad Pro wasn't received that well, but they'll fix that and deliver something good next year. I'm actually on the lookout for a tablet I can draw on, but I'm hesitant to buy a Surface Pro because I don't trust Windows 10. I don't want my OS to be a service with mandatory updates and whatever other control they take away, but then again that's where Apple are headed too. I prefer the OS to be in the background, out of sight, not pushing itself to the foreground, desperate for attention and relevance.
See Microsoft as an example. They sat on Office which was making them money.
Then the market shifted and Microsoft had to scramble, change the leadership team, their structure, their goals, etc. Took a while.
Not saying Apple has to come up with amazing stuff all the time. Just need to look for opportunities outside of iPhone. Or even with the smartphone segment.
They are doing fine right now. But what about in 5 years?
Then the market shifted and Microsoft had to scramble, change the leadership team, their structure, their goals, etc. Took a while.
Not saying Apple has to come up with amazing stuff all the time. Just need to look for opportunities outside of iPhone. Or even with the smartphone segment.
They are doing fine right now. But what about in 5 years?
To rephrase what you said to make a point:
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the Apple II? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
Last time Apple built the entire company around a single product (Apple II) they almost went bankrupt.
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the Apple II? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
Last time Apple built the entire company around a single product (Apple II) they almost went bankrupt.
Not quite the same thing. iPhone gets updated. The Apple II didn't release "Apple II v2,v3 etc" (as far as I know anyway).
And the iPhone isn't a single product, but has all sorts of dependencies via the app store and iTunes. Not to mention the built-in features like the camera, maps, AI, and whatever else it can do natively. In fact, modern smartphones can do so much, consumers probably find it hard to keep up with it all.
And finally, if I were Apple, I'd release an advertisement along the lines of "fire-proof gloves not required" or something clever with a subtle dig at the Samsung disaster which undoubtedly strengthened iPhone sales.
And the iPhone isn't a single product, but has all sorts of dependencies via the app store and iTunes. Not to mention the built-in features like the camera, maps, AI, and whatever else it can do natively. In fact, modern smartphones can do so much, consumers probably find it hard to keep up with it all.
And finally, if I were Apple, I'd release an advertisement along the lines of "fire-proof gloves not required" or something clever with a subtle dig at the Samsung disaster which undoubtedly strengthened iPhone sales.
Why not sit on the iPhone?
Because I think (IMHO) the smartphone industry is about to hit the same problem that Microsoft hit with Office. How do you impress your customer base year after year? Do you hit a point were adding more features to your product is making it more complicated and worse off because of it? Has your competition caught up just enough that in the eyes of the consumer, the difference between best and second best in your product category is small - and price becomes the most important item on the feature list?
Product category churn is something all companies need to keep their finger on. Eventually, everything becomes a commodity and price is the only thing you can improve on. And profit margins become the casualty.
And yes, I do think the auto industry is about to hit the foothills of this curve.
Because I think (IMHO) the smartphone industry is about to hit the same problem that Microsoft hit with Office. How do you impress your customer base year after year? Do you hit a point were adding more features to your product is making it more complicated and worse off because of it? Has your competition caught up just enough that in the eyes of the consumer, the difference between best and second best in your product category is small - and price becomes the most important item on the feature list?
Product category churn is something all companies need to keep their finger on. Eventually, everything becomes a commodity and price is the only thing you can improve on. And profit margins become the casualty.
And yes, I do think the auto industry is about to hit the foothills of this curve.
I disagree on the point that there's not more room for growth on mobile hardware. They're still miles below desktop performance. I still can't plop them into a desktop dock. The camera can definitely be upgraded continuously (not that I use it much). Otherwise I agree, the form factor feels pretty solidified. I doubt we'll see truly game changing innovation in mobile for some time to come.
An honest question. Why?
Does Apple not make enough money, do they need to grow?
Does Apple not make enough money, do they need to grow?
They're a public company. If the company isn't growing, there's little incentive to hold the stock. (The current 2% dividend is a pitiful return, you can get that level of return from an Australian savings account.) If they're not growing & the dividend isn't big enough, then the stock price (and hence company value) will start falling as people cash out.
If Apple can take themselves private again, there will be less pressure on them to keep growing.
If Apple can take themselves private again, there will be less pressure on them to keep growing.
If as you say the stock price falls, Apple could just buy back their own stock. They have a huge cash reserve.
What I'm getting at is I think everybody is overly concerned that Apple isn't releasing any "new" devices. They don't really have to. Looking at market share, they completely dominate on the products they already have. If anything, they can sit back, wait for the "next big thing" and do what Apple typically does best: Copy it, and make it so much better.
What I'm getting at is I think everybody is overly concerned that Apple isn't releasing any "new" devices. They don't really have to. Looking at market share, they completely dominate on the products they already have. If anything, they can sit back, wait for the "next big thing" and do what Apple typically does best: Copy it, and make it so much better.
No, but without new ideas they'll soon start to shrink. Apple is in a very fast business, not coming up with new ideas means losing business very quickly.
They could of course just enjoy sales from the iphone and live off past innovation, but that would mean that they could cut costs by at least 50% and fire most of the workforce. Don't know if that's what they want.
They could of course just enjoy sales from the iphone and live off past innovation, but that would mean that they could cut costs by at least 50% and fire most of the workforce. Don't know if that's what they want.
Apple is a publicly traded company after all.
The problem is right here, "I’m writing this on a mid-2010 non-Retina 13-inch MacBook Pro I bought six years ago last June. Yes, over time I increased the memory to from four to 16 gigs, took the hard drive up from 240 gigs to a terabyte Fusion drive."
Here's the thing. Apple is making this increasingly difficult in newer Macbook Pros.
Here's the thing. Apple is making this increasingly difficult in newer Macbook Pros.
I agree, the underlying philosophy is wrong (at least from a hacking/tinkering perspective) but again... how many people outside our tech bubble are actually doing these upgrades?
The average Joe with a Mac (or a Lenovo or a Dell for that matter) doesn't know about RAM upgrades or SSD random seek times. He doesn't want to know. Apple still manages to deliver a laptop that will work decently out of the box for the years to come, with a reasonably fast SSD and an acceptable amount of memory for most tasks.
Now, why the rest of their product line (Mini, iMac) still ships with sub-par hardware (4 GB base memory and/or 5400 rpm drives), that I don't know. I guess they're becoming products for a more and more niche market.
The average Joe with a Mac (or a Lenovo or a Dell for that matter) doesn't know about RAM upgrades or SSD random seek times. He doesn't want to know. Apple still manages to deliver a laptop that will work decently out of the box for the years to come, with a reasonably fast SSD and an acceptable amount of memory for most tasks.
Now, why the rest of their product line (Mini, iMac) still ships with sub-par hardware (4 GB base memory and/or 5400 rpm drives), that I don't know. I guess they're becoming products for a more and more niche market.
how many people outside our tech bubble are actually doing these upgrades?
That's true, but I think the point is, the people in the tech bubble are also the people making the apps.
I don't know how you'd go about testing this, but I feel very strongly that part of Apple's recent success has been due to making very developer-friendly computers in the early 2000s. The original iPhone was a joy to program for (once they finally opened it up) because it was based on OS X, which was already pretty great compared to the competition.
If programmers stop buying Macs, because they're just too expensive, too limited and unexpandable, the apps will start drying up and users will start drifting away. Maybe.
It's just hard to see who these new machines are aimed at. I see tons of students using Macs in coffee shops -- but what's happening to the low-end, semi-affordable Airs? Graphics and video professionals love Macs -- but where's an up-to-date Mac Pro, or at least a really beefy MacBook Pro? I'm a mobile app developer, I love my MBP, but if I get a new one I'd also need a ton of adaptors for all the mobile devices I work with.
That's true, but I think the point is, the people in the tech bubble are also the people making the apps.
I don't know how you'd go about testing this, but I feel very strongly that part of Apple's recent success has been due to making very developer-friendly computers in the early 2000s. The original iPhone was a joy to program for (once they finally opened it up) because it was based on OS X, which was already pretty great compared to the competition.
If programmers stop buying Macs, because they're just too expensive, too limited and unexpandable, the apps will start drying up and users will start drifting away. Maybe.
It's just hard to see who these new machines are aimed at. I see tons of students using Macs in coffee shops -- but what's happening to the low-end, semi-affordable Airs? Graphics and video professionals love Macs -- but where's an up-to-date Mac Pro, or at least a really beefy MacBook Pro? I'm a mobile app developer, I love my MBP, but if I get a new one I'd also need a ton of adaptors for all the mobile devices I work with.
> If programmers stop buying Macs, because they're just too expensive, too limited and unexpandable, the apps will start drying up and users will start drifting away. Maybe.
Well now you see why XCode can only run on Macs. Want to write apps for the biggest and most profitable mobile ecosystem? Gotta buy a Mac, we don't care if you don't like the lack of upgradability.
Well now you see why XCode can only run on Macs. Want to write apps for the biggest and most profitable mobile ecosystem? Gotta buy a Mac, we don't care if you don't like the lack of upgradability.
Shame Apple don't go ahead and create a Macbook Developer Edition. Even if it had smaller margins, it seems like it would do a world of good for the community.
1. Larger body for bigger battery
2. Previous keyboard mech that devs seem to love
3. Up to 32gb
4. Graphic card options
5. Ports galore
Perhaps I don't realise just how expensive it would be to manufacture a line that has lower but more targeted sales.
1. Larger body for bigger battery
2. Previous keyboard mech that devs seem to love
3. Up to 32gb
4. Graphic card options
5. Ports galore
Perhaps I don't realise just how expensive it would be to manufacture a line that has lower but more targeted sales.
Just offensive and very stupid article. Regret for the lost time.
Yeah, the "I've got a super good idea, but Tim Cook will have to call me to get it" is about as obnoxious as it gets.
Par for the course for Cringely.
From a comment on the article, that could be applied to a future quad-core Mac Mini derivative:
"I would love to seem them cannibalize their lack luster, overpriced iCloud by introducing a “personal cloud” home server product (that would also be the hub for HomeKit, and all that other stuff). Apple getting back to their roots as a high-margin value added hardware company. NAS systems are terrible, especially when trying to integrate them into a macOS and iOS network."
"I would love to seem them cannibalize their lack luster, overpriced iCloud by introducing a “personal cloud” home server product (that would also be the hub for HomeKit, and all that other stuff). Apple getting back to their roots as a high-margin value added hardware company. NAS systems are terrible, especially when trying to integrate them into a macOS and iOS network."
What's wrong with NAS? I bought a Synology to work with a mixture of mac/linux/win machines and it worked fine out of the box.
Don't they already do that with the Time Machine?
Time Machine is their backup thing, so no.
You're thinking the Time Capsule, which is basically an Airport base station with a hard drive that can be used for Time Machine backups. I don't know what other functions it has.
You're thinking the Time Capsule, which is basically an Airport base station with a hard drive that can be used for Time Machine backups. I don't know what other functions it has.
I've always hated Cringely's opinions on Apple and this article is no exception. He has simply been wrong about them time and time again, yet people looking for FUD disguised as thoughtful criticism keep giving him hits. Apple, by every known metric known to the financial world, is doing spectacularly well. They are innovating at the same pace the always have, which has always been a brand new product category every 3-5 years with a series of incremental improvements on existing products from year to year. They absolutely dominate the wealthiest subset of the consumer market, and as such, they can seek rent for the next 10-20 years and continue to make money hand-over-fist for themselves and their investors without ever introducing a new product again. But they're going to continue to innovate just like they always have, and that innovation is going to be met with skepticism, ridicule, and dismissiveness just as it always has been. Bet against Apple at your own peril. Having closely followed them since 2003 when I made the switch to OS X myself, I've yet to see a single indication that they have made anything but the best business decisions of any company during that same period (possibly ever).
How is releasing the iPhone 7 which is port-wise incompatible with the new MBP a "best business decision of any company" when they clearly knew the product timetables?
The Google Pixel phone is better suited for the new MBP than the iPhone.
I think there are serious leadership problems at Apple and these sorts of incompatibilities among their own products is a symptom.
I'm stuck on my late 2011 MBP because every model after it is failing at the 'professional' part by removing ports and upgradeable/swappable components. USB-C is nice and all but it's not sufficient as the only port (and with only 3 of them left while charging).
The Google Pixel phone is better suited for the new MBP than the iPhone.
I think there are serious leadership problems at Apple and these sorts of incompatibilities among their own products is a symptom.
I'm stuck on my late 2011 MBP because every model after it is failing at the 'professional' part by removing ports and upgradeable/swappable components. USB-C is nice and all but it's not sufficient as the only port (and with only 3 of them left while charging).
I'm not saying every single decision they've made has been the best. I'm saying that on the whole their decisions have been among the best as demonstrated by their dominant market position and insane growth and profits over the past 16 years.
>> as demonstrated by their dominant market position and insane growth and profits over the past 16 years
If you go back that far - then yes. More recently? Not so much:
Apple's iPhone Share Continues To Slip In The US And Japan
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2015/06/30/apples-iph...
Apple's Smartphone Profit Share Slipping Vs. Samsung
http://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apples-smartp...
Latest Gartner/IDC data shows Apple PC market share & shipments slip, Macs fall behind ASUS globally
https://9to5mac.com/2016/07/11/apple-market-share-shipments-...
If you go back that far - then yes. More recently? Not so much:
Apple's iPhone Share Continues To Slip In The US And Japan
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2015/06/30/apples-iph...
Apple's Smartphone Profit Share Slipping Vs. Samsung
http://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apples-smartp...
Latest Gartner/IDC data shows Apple PC market share & shipments slip, Macs fall behind ASUS globally
https://9to5mac.com/2016/07/11/apple-market-share-shipments-...
You should really read "Haunted Empire" that talks about Apple's struggles right after Jobs died. Right now we're seeing the end result of losing his vision of design.
https://www.amazon.com/Haunted-Empire-Apple-After-Steve/dp/0...
https://www.amazon.com/Haunted-Empire-Apple-After-Steve/dp/0...
They may be a darling of Wall Street, but they have jumped the shark technologically. You've already seen the peak.
I'm not sure if he is serious with his idea or not. I can't see how it'd work.
Also, the MacBook Pro just launched. We can't know if it'll be a success or not, until 4-6 months later. I'm personally going to buy one (the higher end).
Also, the MacBook Pro just launched. We can't know if it'll be a success or not, until 4-6 months later. I'm personally going to buy one (the higher end).
How often must Apple release a new category? They released a watch in 2015. Apple needs an entire new product category every year?
Why do people expect Apple to deliver a completely new product every year?
There's not much to be changed in the macbook pro. Yes, it would be nice to have more cpu or a better gpu, but no, not at the expense of battery life.
I think the bar is awesome, although I won't upgrade since my 2013 retina mbp is doing everything perfectly fine. If I would be able to add the bar for $300, I'd do it.
The last 10 years, apple has created: iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, the Retina macbooks, the new macbook, the new mac pro, new imac, better icloud, the new appletv, better music/itunes, the app store and probably lots of other things.
All greatly different than before.
Whenever Apple does something, it always seems incremental... Until 5 years down the road when they realise they were in a revolution.
There's not much to be changed in the macbook pro. Yes, it would be nice to have more cpu or a better gpu, but no, not at the expense of battery life.
I think the bar is awesome, although I won't upgrade since my 2013 retina mbp is doing everything perfectly fine. If I would be able to add the bar for $300, I'd do it.
The last 10 years, apple has created: iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, the Retina macbooks, the new macbook, the new mac pro, new imac, better icloud, the new appletv, better music/itunes, the app store and probably lots of other things.
All greatly different than before.
Whenever Apple does something, it always seems incremental... Until 5 years down the road when they realise they were in a revolution.
[deleted]
all the things happening at Apple right now and this guy drones on about they should be getting buying media companies.
what the heck indeed..
what the heck indeed..
> And as IBM reported a couple weeks ago, even at higher prices, Macs tend to be cheaper to own. I’m writing this on a mid-2010 non-Retina 13-inch MacBook Pro I bought six years ago last June. Yes, over time I increased the memory to from four to 16 gigs, took the hard drive up from 240 gigs to a terabyte Fusion drive, replaced both the battery and the keyboard when they wore out, but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device with which I have so far generated well over $1 million in revenue.
His arguments makes no sense to me. How is it cheaper to own a laptop that is expensive in the first place, but is also one of the less upgradeable ones on the market (making it more expensive to run post-warranty)?
And no, that's not what IBM reported either. They reported that Macs are cheaper to use as company PCs (which doesn't necessarily extrapolate to the laptop market as a whole).
His arguments makes no sense to me. How is it cheaper to own a laptop that is expensive in the first place, but is also one of the less upgradeable ones on the market (making it more expensive to run post-warranty)?
And no, that's not what IBM reported either. They reported that Macs are cheaper to use as company PCs (which doesn't necessarily extrapolate to the laptop market as a whole).
For an individual, the TCO argument for Macs still holds, but it's a bit different :
- Don't just look at the initial outlay that gets you on the Apple ladder : Macs also have a much, much better resale value than PCs, even years later. It's incremental and relatively painless if you upgrade regularly.
- You're a human, your peace of mind matters and your time isn't free. Buy stuff that brings you joy or at a minimum, stuff that doesn't feel like death by a thousand cuts day after day. And you might not recognize that before you've tried a Mac, seriously (I used to be a hardcore desktop Linux guy until 2004)
As someone who briefly lost faith in Apple last year, then went ahead and built a Hackintosh ("why not?"), I can't stress the second point nearly enough.
My high end 32GB 4Ghz Core i7 box with Thunderbolt and a 32" screen cost me about 25% less than a top of the line iMac that satisfies the same use cases. Great.
The money I saved is roughly what I make in 1-2 days, but I've spent at least a dozen evenings so far researching / troubleshooting / preparing for OS upgrades. Plus I need to reboot the box once after each cold boot before it will see my TB devices and I can play music on my audio interface. Great. Not to mention the floor/desk space compared to an iMac.
The tinkering was fun at times, I don't completely regret trying, but frankly life is too short : guess who's going back to the Mac next time ?
- Don't just look at the initial outlay that gets you on the Apple ladder : Macs also have a much, much better resale value than PCs, even years later. It's incremental and relatively painless if you upgrade regularly.
- You're a human, your peace of mind matters and your time isn't free. Buy stuff that brings you joy or at a minimum, stuff that doesn't feel like death by a thousand cuts day after day. And you might not recognize that before you've tried a Mac, seriously (I used to be a hardcore desktop Linux guy until 2004)
As someone who briefly lost faith in Apple last year, then went ahead and built a Hackintosh ("why not?"), I can't stress the second point nearly enough.
My high end 32GB 4Ghz Core i7 box with Thunderbolt and a 32" screen cost me about 25% less than a top of the line iMac that satisfies the same use cases. Great.
The money I saved is roughly what I make in 1-2 days, but I've spent at least a dozen evenings so far researching / troubleshooting / preparing for OS upgrades. Plus I need to reboot the box once after each cold boot before it will see my TB devices and I can play music on my audio interface. Great. Not to mention the floor/desk space compared to an iMac.
The tinkering was fun at times, I don't completely regret trying, but frankly life is too short : guess who's going back to the Mac next time ?
Yes the entire argument from IBM revolved around lower costs for company's helpdesks because mac users needed less help.
But, to be fair, apple's computers tend to be well built and not break easily. I had a powerbook that lasted 9 years (used for a few years then gave it to my parents). All the apple computers I bought lasted a long time (except for a second gen macbook air I had). I've had a small toshiba laptop and it broke after 3 years shortly after the insurance stopped.
It's anecdotal but I've seen it also with friends.
But, to be fair, apple's computers tend to be well built and not break easily. I had a powerbook that lasted 9 years (used for a few years then gave it to my parents). All the apple computers I bought lasted a long time (except for a second gen macbook air I had). I've had a small toshiba laptop and it broke after 3 years shortly after the insurance stopped.
It's anecdotal but I've seen it also with friends.
While the idea of hiring all the writers is cute, the "known" writers all have deals in place already. So Apple would be effectively taking a gamble on all unknown talent. That may or may not pay off.
Buying TWC is a monumentally stupid idea for Apple that I won't even go into.
Apple is obviously working on things (including self driving car systems), it just doesn't announce them and it doesn't hesitate to cancel them if it doesn't like the results. Those are, IMHO, good qualities about Apple.
The idea that Apple has to get into a new category is kind of ridiculous. It doesn't have to do anything. It has solid profits and tons of money on hand. They can coast. The stock value will go down or stall for a bit if they do, but so what? When they release another great product, if it is successful, the stock price will reflect it at that time.
Buying TWC is a monumentally stupid idea for Apple that I won't even go into.
Apple is obviously working on things (including self driving car systems), it just doesn't announce them and it doesn't hesitate to cancel them if it doesn't like the results. Those are, IMHO, good qualities about Apple.
The idea that Apple has to get into a new category is kind of ridiculous. It doesn't have to do anything. It has solid profits and tons of money on hand. They can coast. The stock value will go down or stall for a bit if they do, but so what? When they release another great product, if it is successful, the stock price will reflect it at that time.
When they release another great product, if it is successful, the stock price will reflect it at that time.
One of the things that keep senior engineers at a company like Apple is vast amount of money they can make from their stock options. If the share price tanks then the senior engineers don't make anywhere close to the money they can make elsewhere, so they leave. That makes it harder to develop a successful product.
I'm not suggesting Apple is a single failure away from a death spiral, but I am saying they can't rest on their laurels simply because they're Apple.
One of the things that keep senior engineers at a company like Apple is vast amount of money they can make from their stock options. If the share price tanks then the senior engineers don't make anywhere close to the money they can make elsewhere, so they leave. That makes it harder to develop a successful product.
I'm not suggesting Apple is a single failure away from a death spiral, but I am saying they can't rest on their laurels simply because they're Apple.
> they can't rest on their laurels simply because they're Apple.
No, but they can because they have something like $200 billion cash on hand. Which means if they really care about their stock price they can do a buy back if they want. Or if they are worried about employee compensation due to lagging stock price they can give bonuses, etc.
No, but they can because they have something like $200 billion cash on hand. Which means if they really care about their stock price they can do a buy back if they want. Or if they are worried about employee compensation due to lagging stock price they can give bonuses, etc.
No, but they can because they have something like $200 billion cash on hand.
That's technically true, but getting that money to a place where they can use it to buy back stock or to pay bonuses to their engineering staff would be incredibly expensive. There's a reason why they've not repatriated it yet.
That's technically true, but getting that money to a place where they can use it to buy back stock or to pay bonuses to their engineering staff would be incredibly expensive. There's a reason why they've not repatriated it yet.
Even if it costs them 50 cents on the dollar to use that money, that's still a good chunk of money to fall back on, isn't it?
I can imagine that you wouldn't actively take risks with money that's expensive to use, but if they were already in a death spiral, wouldn't they use it to avoid going down the drain entirely?
It seems absurd to me to sit on $200 billion if you can't use at least a good fraction of it - but I don't even begin to understand the legal and accounting issues with handling that sort of money.
I can imagine that you wouldn't actively take risks with money that's expensive to use, but if they were already in a death spiral, wouldn't they use it to avoid going down the drain entirely?
It seems absurd to me to sit on $200 billion if you can't use at least a good fraction of it - but I don't even begin to understand the legal and accounting issues with handling that sort of money.
I'd expect it to pay off... eventually. This would be the sort of thing where I'd expect it to take a decade, easily -- the idea being, as you point out, to snap up all the new talent. Eventually someone will hit, but it might take a while. (Yes, some writers may well object, but that is orthogonal to which ones will write hits.)
I agree Apple needs a new billion dollar business segment and it's simple what it is; Apple Bus Pool Pro :-)
Apple Bicycle!
The Apple iCycle: A two-wheeled revolution in transportation. The battery will allow two miles of (downhill) travel, at which point you'll have to charge it over USB-C. (Battery is not swappable.) No pedals are included.
You only need a USB-C to bipedal human cable, what's the big deal?
The cable will be released 2 months later.
If you had worked "courage" into your post it would have been perfect.
My biggest concern is that Apple products don't have any agreement on connectors. Apple is becoming a company you need to buy dongles/adapters to connect their own products together. While I can get some stuff done via wireless/bluetooth its odd I cannot simply take the provided cables with my phone and connect it to my Mac. Let alone the corded headphones.
Still I really don't understand the touch bar. When Microsoft is the lead in fully touch screens for their PCs and tablets you know something is wrong at Apple. A touch bar?? Really, what about all that screen where the action is really taking place.
Then comes the abandonware as I term some of their hardware, namely the Mac Pro but you can add the mini to that. Don't they have any shame?
Still I really don't understand the touch bar. When Microsoft is the lead in fully touch screens for their PCs and tablets you know something is wrong at Apple. A touch bar?? Really, what about all that screen where the action is really taking place.
Then comes the abandonware as I term some of their hardware, namely the Mac Pro but you can add the mini to that. Don't they have any shame?
Here's a new product category for Apple...
Give a digital paper solution, 13'' e-ink display plus pen running some sort of watchOS. They don't have to invent it, just start from the Sony DPT-S1.
"But Amazon’s requirements for success are much lower than Apple’s and its tolerance for failure (Amazon Fire phone anyone?) are higher."
Can someone explain why Apple has less tolerance to failure? It would seem like they're in the perfect place for failures -- it's not going to torch the company, and they have stable revenue to offset any failures. This seemed like it was more of a company culture thing, but maybe there are strong reasons why Apple couldn't tolerate some failures in the name of searching / growing?
Can someone explain why Apple has less tolerance to failure? It would seem like they're in the perfect place for failures -- it's not going to torch the company, and they have stable revenue to offset any failures. This seemed like it was more of a company culture thing, but maybe there are strong reasons why Apple couldn't tolerate some failures in the name of searching / growing?
I'd guess a lot of Apple's value lies in the trust their customers have for them - you pay a lot for Apple, but in return you know you're not getting a lemon. It would only take a few failures to seriously dent that, whereas a company with a less premium reputation can probably afford to throw a few things at the wall and see what sticks.
I guess the author was using customer's perspective of Apple's failure. In the sense, customers are more likely to be harsh on Apple for their failures rather than other companies.
They experiment and fail occasionally. Remember the iPod HiFi?
To be honest, I feel like the fact that you have to reach back 10 years to find a genuinely interesting Apple experiment more or less supports the point made in the article.
[deleted]
Ok, then how about MagSafe power connectors?
"MagSafe is a series of proprietary magnetically attached power connectors, originally introduced by Apple Inc. on January 10, 2006, in conjunction with the MacBook Pro at the Macworld Expo in San Francisco, California."
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe
(I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, and will certainly admit that I thought MagSafe was several years newer than that - I still stick by my comment above, though)
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe
(I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, and will certainly admit that I thought MagSafe was several years newer than that - I still stick by my comment above, though)
Apple's mice have all been duds. Siri on the desktop is a dud. The pencil is a dud.
I don't think the point is that 'Apple doesn't ever fail anymore', it's 'Apple doesn't release strange and interesting things anymore'.
.. to your examples:
* Stranger mice have been made than Apple's. Also, Apple's 'strange mouse' lineage goes all the way back to the first iMac in 1998.
* Siri on the desktop isn't anything innovative, it's figuring out some way to build some iOS code to run in regular macOS.
* .. and the pencil is just a stylus. They can call it whatever they want.
IMHO, none of these rise to the level of something like MagSafe, which is a mundane part of a laptop done in a new and innovative way.
.. to your examples:
* Stranger mice have been made than Apple's. Also, Apple's 'strange mouse' lineage goes all the way back to the first iMac in 1998.
* Siri on the desktop isn't anything innovative, it's figuring out some way to build some iOS code to run in regular macOS.
* .. and the pencil is just a stylus. They can call it whatever they want.
IMHO, none of these rise to the level of something like MagSafe, which is a mundane part of a laptop done in a new and innovative way.
Amazon Fire wasn't really strange. It was only an experiment in as much as being one of Amazon's first forays into hardware. Otherwise it was pretty standard, iirc.
> What we can count on is that MacBook Pro prices won’t get any higher for many years
This is pure speculation stated as if it were fact. It makes me question the validity of the rest of the article.
This is pure speculation stated as if it were fact. It makes me question the validity of the rest of the article.
Especially just a paragraph or two after "and have raised prices by about $200, for seemingly no discernible reason".
There is one industry where Apple can make a lot of money, and nobody is noticing it: healthcare. One of the biggest problems holding the inevitable healthcare disruption from happening is security - whom will you trust to keep a record of your heart rate or whatever? I'd pick Apple over any other provider because of the hardware innovations with the security enclave chips, etc, as well as insistence that security does not need to be sacrificed in order to make data useful.
Most of the healthcare dollars goes to poor, elderly - who have much more chronic health issues. The iPhone isn't strong in that demogrpahic, due to economic reasons(source: a post by a health IT guy) .
I believe Apple are partnering with healthcare providers since the savings in care costs make it worth subsidising the phones. Or, at least, that's the theory; I'm not informed enough to say if it's going to work.
I'm a rMBP 15" 2015 entry level machine owner who was looking forward to a Skylake version of the $2K machine. It would have been more battery efficient and lighter which are both important for my work. It would have been wonderful if they would have updated the machine with Skylake, with the new thinner, brighter, better color gamut screens.
As it is, the AMD models will probably consume more power than the entry level Skylake model would have with the iris pro graphics.
As it is, the AMD models will probably consume more power than the entry level Skylake model would have with the iris pro graphics.
My pet theory is that without the dictatorial control of Jobs, people like Ive are off the reservation and distracted by vanity Christmas tree design projects.
As a company, they're also wasting time and energy on designing the new building.
It's ridiculous that the company can't bother to do the basic product line maintenance that even dying companies like HP can do. Why are they making Mac Pros and Mac Minis?
It's an institutional hubris that is very dangerous.
As a company, they're also wasting time and energy on designing the new building.
It's ridiculous that the company can't bother to do the basic product line maintenance that even dying companies like HP can do. Why are they making Mac Pros and Mac Minis?
It's an institutional hubris that is very dangerous.
Let me be contrarian for a moment when I tell you that I absolutely don't understand the negativity surrounding the newly announced MBPs. All the arguments I'm hearing about why the new machines are a step back, at least for me, are irrelevant or just the usual "I don't like change":
Magsafe:
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have never been in the position where could be tripping over the power cable but not over another cable that was also attached to a device. That's the thing: I rarely ever have just the power connected, so magsafe doesn't really protect me much.
Plus: With 10 hours of battery life, maybe I don't even need to connect the device outside of charging in the cases where I really only need power.
On the other hand, by not having a proprietary power connector, I can share power adapters with other devices, and I finally reach the point where I only have to connect exactly one cable to the machine to both power it and to connect the USB hub where all the devices I use are already connected to.
Touch Bar:
This is finally a discoverable function row. Yes. I'm a developer and I'm using some shortcuts involving F-Keys. But I'd much rather just press the touch-screen button spelling the name of the function I'm using instead of fiddling with various modifier keys and a matching F-key.
This is a huge improvement in discoverability of shortcuts and I can't wait for applications to take advantage of this and show me context-specific shortcuts. It will also make new application much easier to learn and to be maximally productive with them.
The Esc-Key still exists, albeit only on a touch screen, but as it's to the top left, I assume I'll still be able to hit it blind. If an App decides not to show me the Esc button, I assume it also doesn't have a binding for it.
And speaking of binding: If I have trouble hitting the virtual esc key, I'll be able to rebind caps lock.
Touch ID comes at the cost of having another locked-down processor running in my machine. I don't like this 100% but on the other hand, I think this is the first time where there's crypto hardware built into a machine that then isn't used for DRM but to protect something of mine that I really, really don't want applications to have access to.
I might even be using this.
USB-C:
Yes. Right now that's annoying because right now I only have maybe one or two USB-C cables. But as USB-C is so much superior to the other existing USB solutions, I fully expect USB-C to quickly become a standard and for cables to be bundled with the various devices.
I already have more USB cables (A to Micro, A to Mini, A to B, A to lightning) than I can count and most devices I purchase come with more unneeded cables. It's just a matter of time before the collection completes itself.
At that point I will finally have my reversible plug on my machine. No more fumbling and trying the correct orientation. Also in the really rare case when I really need to plug more than the monitor (which has a hub on its own), I now have a much more versatile solution as any device can be plugged into any slot. Much better.
With regards to HDMI and DisplayPort, it was my experience so far that neither HDMI nor DisplayPort would actually work for me in all the cases where I wanted to plug in the laptop (with the exception of my desk in the office where I had a thunderbolt display): Whether it was at conferences or at customers for presentations: The selection of ports I had to deal with included the (Lenovo proprietary) Mini-HDMI, DVI and VGA. Only very rarely could I use HDMI and Display Port was never available.
Which meant that I needed to have a collection of dongles with me anyways, so there, nothing changes.
So now I'm left with the other two arguments I hear:
One is the missing card-reader which, I can accept is annoying for some and we'll have to see how it plays out. Once everything is just USB-C, then maybe it's worth it to just connect the device instead of removing the card, dealing with card-size converters and all that crap.
The other is the 16GB RAM restriction which, by now we have learned is a hardware restriction because there's no solution yet for low voltage RAM if more than 16GB are required.
Sure. They could have gone with non-low-voltage RAM, but that would have come at the cost of either battery life or size and weight.
And weight, honestly, so far was the only thing that was annoying me about my existing MBP (2012 retina). Every gram the can shave off is very welcome to me as it brings me closer to my optimal configuration which would be to just have one device and commute with it.
The current machine is too heavy for that and who knows, the new one might be light enough.
Being able to do serious development (which you totally can on these new boxes) and still commute with the machine, this would be a total dream of mine and maybe, just maybe, this machine is the one to finally make it possible - even at the cost of 16GB of maximum ram. The existing 16GB is enough for MacOS and a VM or two.
Magsafe:
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have never been in the position where could be tripping over the power cable but not over another cable that was also attached to a device. That's the thing: I rarely ever have just the power connected, so magsafe doesn't really protect me much.
Plus: With 10 hours of battery life, maybe I don't even need to connect the device outside of charging in the cases where I really only need power.
On the other hand, by not having a proprietary power connector, I can share power adapters with other devices, and I finally reach the point where I only have to connect exactly one cable to the machine to both power it and to connect the USB hub where all the devices I use are already connected to.
Touch Bar:
This is finally a discoverable function row. Yes. I'm a developer and I'm using some shortcuts involving F-Keys. But I'd much rather just press the touch-screen button spelling the name of the function I'm using instead of fiddling with various modifier keys and a matching F-key.
This is a huge improvement in discoverability of shortcuts and I can't wait for applications to take advantage of this and show me context-specific shortcuts. It will also make new application much easier to learn and to be maximally productive with them.
The Esc-Key still exists, albeit only on a touch screen, but as it's to the top left, I assume I'll still be able to hit it blind. If an App decides not to show me the Esc button, I assume it also doesn't have a binding for it.
And speaking of binding: If I have trouble hitting the virtual esc key, I'll be able to rebind caps lock.
Touch ID comes at the cost of having another locked-down processor running in my machine. I don't like this 100% but on the other hand, I think this is the first time where there's crypto hardware built into a machine that then isn't used for DRM but to protect something of mine that I really, really don't want applications to have access to.
I might even be using this.
USB-C:
Yes. Right now that's annoying because right now I only have maybe one or two USB-C cables. But as USB-C is so much superior to the other existing USB solutions, I fully expect USB-C to quickly become a standard and for cables to be bundled with the various devices.
I already have more USB cables (A to Micro, A to Mini, A to B, A to lightning) than I can count and most devices I purchase come with more unneeded cables. It's just a matter of time before the collection completes itself.
At that point I will finally have my reversible plug on my machine. No more fumbling and trying the correct orientation. Also in the really rare case when I really need to plug more than the monitor (which has a hub on its own), I now have a much more versatile solution as any device can be plugged into any slot. Much better.
With regards to HDMI and DisplayPort, it was my experience so far that neither HDMI nor DisplayPort would actually work for me in all the cases where I wanted to plug in the laptop (with the exception of my desk in the office where I had a thunderbolt display): Whether it was at conferences or at customers for presentations: The selection of ports I had to deal with included the (Lenovo proprietary) Mini-HDMI, DVI and VGA. Only very rarely could I use HDMI and Display Port was never available.
Which meant that I needed to have a collection of dongles with me anyways, so there, nothing changes.
So now I'm left with the other two arguments I hear:
One is the missing card-reader which, I can accept is annoying for some and we'll have to see how it plays out. Once everything is just USB-C, then maybe it's worth it to just connect the device instead of removing the card, dealing with card-size converters and all that crap.
The other is the 16GB RAM restriction which, by now we have learned is a hardware restriction because there's no solution yet for low voltage RAM if more than 16GB are required.
Sure. They could have gone with non-low-voltage RAM, but that would have come at the cost of either battery life or size and weight.
And weight, honestly, so far was the only thing that was annoying me about my existing MBP (2012 retina). Every gram the can shave off is very welcome to me as it brings me closer to my optimal configuration which would be to just have one device and commute with it.
The current machine is too heavy for that and who knows, the new one might be light enough.
Being able to do serious development (which you totally can on these new boxes) and still commute with the machine, this would be a total dream of mine and maybe, just maybe, this machine is the one to finally make it possible - even at the cost of 16GB of maximum ram. The existing 16GB is enough for MacOS and a VM or two.
I agree. Particularly with the USB-C and Magsafe points here. I definitely have had cases where magsafe has helped, but it was primarily with the older macbooks with 4 hour batteries. The benefits of a non-proprietary connector shared with the rest of the industry seems to me a tradeoff worth making.
With respect to dongles, I know people hate dongles, and I agree that dongles for no purpose other than thin-ness (i.e. mini-vga and mini-dvi that Apple had for awhile) are terrible. But the move from single purpose semi-proprietary ports to universal use industry standard ports that also happen to have nice physical properties (small, reversible) is a great development.
With respect to dongles, I know people hate dongles, and I agree that dongles for no purpose other than thin-ness (i.e. mini-vga and mini-dvi that Apple had for awhile) are terrible. But the move from single purpose semi-proprietary ports to universal use industry standard ports that also happen to have nice physical properties (small, reversible) is a great development.
> Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have never been in the position where could be tripping over the power cable but not over another cable that was also attached to a device. That's the thing: I rarely ever have just the power connected, so magsafe doesn't really protect me much.
What else would you be plugging into a macbook? Particularly in a setting like a coffee shop which is probably where the highest risk of someone tripping over the power cable is.
> Plus: With 10 hours of battery life, maybe I don't even need to connect the device outside of charging in the cases where I really only need power.
If you want to keep that 10 hour life you have to not drain it too often. (Or rather you have to not charge it too quickly, but unfortunately that amounts to the same thing).
> On the other hand, by not having a proprietary power connector, I can share power adapters with other devices, and I finally reach the point where I only have to connect exactly one cable to the machine to both power it and to connect the USB hub where all the devices I use are already connected to.
This is true. Though if Apple were going to give up on Magsafe as a competitive advantage I wish they would've just licensed the patents and allowed USB-C to use the same tech.
What else would you be plugging into a macbook? Particularly in a setting like a coffee shop which is probably where the highest risk of someone tripping over the power cable is.
> Plus: With 10 hours of battery life, maybe I don't even need to connect the device outside of charging in the cases where I really only need power.
If you want to keep that 10 hour life you have to not drain it too often. (Or rather you have to not charge it too quickly, but unfortunately that amounts to the same thing).
> On the other hand, by not having a proprietary power connector, I can share power adapters with other devices, and I finally reach the point where I only have to connect exactly one cable to the machine to both power it and to connect the USB hub where all the devices I use are already connected to.
This is true. Though if Apple were going to give up on Magsafe as a competitive advantage I wish they would've just licensed the patents and allowed USB-C to use the same tech.
> What else would you be plugging into a macbook? Particularly in a setting like a coffee shop which is probably where the highest risk of someone tripping over the power cable is.
an iPhone, an Android Device (if I'm doing development) and headphones (especially in a coffee shop)
>This is true. Though if Apple were going to give up on Magsafe as a competitive advantage I wish they would've just licensed the patents and allowed USB-C to use the same tech
The moment you have a data connection, accidental disconnects (like they happen with magsafe all the time) become very annoying and possibly lead to data corruption and/or kernel panics (in the thunderbolt case when you have, say, an external GPU connected to that cable)
Try yanking a USB-stick while it's copying data.
If you really, really want to use one of your ports for power only, use one of the various third-party magnetic USB-C adapters (like https://griffintechnology.com/us/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-po... - first hit on Google)
an iPhone, an Android Device (if I'm doing development) and headphones (especially in a coffee shop)
>This is true. Though if Apple were going to give up on Magsafe as a competitive advantage I wish they would've just licensed the patents and allowed USB-C to use the same tech
The moment you have a data connection, accidental disconnects (like they happen with magsafe all the time) become very annoying and possibly lead to data corruption and/or kernel panics (in the thunderbolt case when you have, say, an external GPU connected to that cable)
Try yanking a USB-stick while it's copying data.
If you really, really want to use one of your ports for power only, use one of the various third-party magnetic USB-C adapters (like https://griffintechnology.com/us/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-po... - first hit on Google)
> an iPhone, an Android Device (if I'm doing development) and headphones (especially in a coffee shop)
With the wire trailing so you can trip over it? I always thought Magsafe was smart because it recognises that while I might have other stuff plugged in, that stuff and its wire is on the desk where power can't be.
With the wire trailing so you can trip over it? I always thought Magsafe was smart because it recognises that while I might have other stuff plugged in, that stuff and its wire is on the desk where power can't be.
I think the new MBPs are simultaneously trying to a) be all things to all people, and b) push the envelope a little and encourage everyone to adopt USB-C.
a) means it has to be reasonably powerful, but also thin and light for road warriors. But why is a single device better than a range of device -- really light Air for those who need portability, and a beefy 17" for people who need power?
b) is fine as far as it goes, but taking away all the other ports, and doing this in the same machine that ticks all the boxes in part a), just means it's a compromise that's awkward for everyone.
If I buy Apple's latest laptop and their latest phone right now, they have different connectors, so I still need the same number of cables as before, I just need a whole set of new ones. If the next iPhone switches to USB-C, that would start to make sense (but then all those Lightning headphones suddenly become obsolete, so that's a bit awkward...)
It's not that the new MBPs are really bad, they're just underwhelming. If I needed a new Mac right now I'd be feeling resigned rather than excited about it. (Which is a strange feeling! Who doesn't like getting brand-new Apple kit?)
a) means it has to be reasonably powerful, but also thin and light for road warriors. But why is a single device better than a range of device -- really light Air for those who need portability, and a beefy 17" for people who need power?
b) is fine as far as it goes, but taking away all the other ports, and doing this in the same machine that ticks all the boxes in part a), just means it's a compromise that's awkward for everyone.
If I buy Apple's latest laptop and their latest phone right now, they have different connectors, so I still need the same number of cables as before, I just need a whole set of new ones. If the next iPhone switches to USB-C, that would start to make sense (but then all those Lightning headphones suddenly become obsolete, so that's a bit awkward...)
It's not that the new MBPs are really bad, they're just underwhelming. If I needed a new Mac right now I'd be feeling resigned rather than excited about it. (Which is a strange feeling! Who doesn't like getting brand-new Apple kit?)
> a) means it has to be reasonably powerful, but also thin and light for road warriors. But why is a single device better than a range of device -- really light Air for those who need portability, and a beefy 17" for people who need power?
Computers are finally powerful enough that they think they can manage both at the same time. Having replaced both my travel netbook and my 18" gaming laptop with a Surface Book, I think they're right.
Computers are finally powerful enough that they think they can manage both at the same time. Having replaced both my travel netbook and my 18" gaming laptop with a Surface Book, I think they're right.
There's something in that, but doesn't segmentation make sense purely from a pricing perspective?
There are many people who would love a Mac but don't have a ton of money. Apple don't have to slash prices to meet that demand, the current Air was already doing OK. But they're actually moving in the opposite direction, raising prices.
And there are many people who like Macs and are prepared to spend a lot of money on one. Why limit their options to a very narrow range of models?
(I guess the cynical answers would be, low-end users aren't worth much, and high-end users will upgrade frequently anyway so there's no need to sell them a machine with headroom for future expansion.)
There are many people who would love a Mac but don't have a ton of money. Apple don't have to slash prices to meet that demand, the current Air was already doing OK. But they're actually moving in the opposite direction, raising prices.
And there are many people who like Macs and are prepared to spend a lot of money on one. Why limit their options to a very narrow range of models?
(I guess the cynical answers would be, low-end users aren't worth much, and high-end users will upgrade frequently anyway so there's no need to sell them a machine with headroom for future expansion.)
Well, segmentation or not it's certainly worth making the Pro light and portable if they can achieve that without compromising its power too much. They seem to believe they can, or at least get close enough (I mean perhaps a larger/heavier Pro could have run to 32GB while maintaining acceptable battery life).
Whether it would be better to make a cheaper Air than the cheapest new model is a separate question. I'll just say that Apple has always gone the premium route (and the limited-range-of-models route) and there are advantages and disadvantages to that.
Whether it would be better to make a cheaper Air than the cheapest new model is a separate question. I'll just say that Apple has always gone the premium route (and the limited-range-of-models route) and there are advantages and disadvantages to that.
> means it has to be reasonably powerful, but also thin and light for road warriors
I like a device powerful enough to do development on while still being able to commute with it. And these new machines might finally be the ones to make this possible, so that's great in my book.
> If the next iPhone switches to USB-C, that would start to make sense
it won't. They want to keep Lightning in order to keep their MFI licensing program going (asking for $4 ish for every unit sold). However, they will quite possibly ship an USB-C to Lightning cable, so existing headphones and friends keep working - you'll just be able to connect your phone directly.
This cable already exists (http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightni... - priced outrageously, of course), btw, so you don't need an ugly dongle to connect an iPhone.
I like a device powerful enough to do development on while still being able to commute with it. And these new machines might finally be the ones to make this possible, so that's great in my book.
> If the next iPhone switches to USB-C, that would start to make sense
it won't. They want to keep Lightning in order to keep their MFI licensing program going (asking for $4 ish for every unit sold). However, they will quite possibly ship an USB-C to Lightning cable, so existing headphones and friends keep working - you'll just be able to connect your phone directly.
This cable already exists (http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightni... - priced outrageously, of course), btw, so you don't need an ugly dongle to connect an iPhone.
I like a device powerful enough to do development on while still being able to commute with it.
Me too! So despite my complaints, this direction is probably OK for me (except they're getting even more ridiculously expensive).
All this business with overpriced adapters and dongles still makes me more resigned than excited, though.
I'm going to give it at least a year before upgrading. I assume by that point, the MBP will be more or less the same, just missing the headphone jack. :)
Me too! So despite my complaints, this direction is probably OK for me (except they're getting even more ridiculously expensive).
All this business with overpriced adapters and dongles still makes me more resigned than excited, though.
I'm going to give it at least a year before upgrading. I assume by that point, the MBP will be more or less the same, just missing the headphone jack. :)
In regards to the touch bar, I want to have a go at debugging on one of the new Mac's.
That's really my main worry, I can currently step through/into/out of functions etc in my IDE without even looking at the keyboard, if the touch bar is going to be the same then I'm not overly bothered by anything else.
I fear the lack of haptic feedback will make the whole process feel awkward.
That's really my main worry, I can currently step through/into/out of functions etc in my IDE without even looking at the keyboard, if the touch bar is going to be the same then I'm not overly bothered by anything else.
I fear the lack of haptic feedback will make the whole process feel awkward.
I'll bite and lay out why I won't be buying a new one (soon). Perhaps in a few years once everything else moves forward:
MagSafe:
I have three 85W MagSafe adapters. Replacing these would cost an extra $200 over the cost of the machine. I have four kids, two of which are toddlers. Sometimes I am working somewhere not at my desk and the cord gets pulled or tripped on.
TouchBar:
About 70% of the time I am at my desk using an extra Apple keyboard and magic trackpad. There is no option for an external Touch Bar. I'm not going to get used to using a feature only available to me 30% of the time. The price difference of the Touch Bar appears to be about $300 (comparing last year's model and the 13" non-Touch Bar to the Touch Bar model). That is a lot of money for something I am not going to use.
USB-C:
I don't really have a problem with USB-C (other than losing MagSafe), but it does mean buying new cables and some dongles (~$80 in my case). However, the big issue is that I spend 70% of time at my desk with my power, 32" 4K display, headphones and lighting cable (trackpad changing and iPhone) plugged in. Currently these can all plug in on the same side of the device. On the other side I have a USB port and SD card reader for those occurrences I need it. This leads to "docking" and "undocking" being straight forward, and a clean and tidy desk. With the new MBP I would have to have cable plugging in on both sides of the machine. My desk is small enough that this would lead to cables hanging off the edge of my desk, which would lead to things getting tangled and generally messy. The other option would be to drop $250-$300 on a Thunderbolt 3 dock and stash it all behind my monitor. But that just raises the price even more.
Physical Size:
I don't need a thinner computer. The case I need to protect my laptop is far thicker than the laptop itself. It doesn't make my life better in any way to have a thinner machine. It would make my life better to have the same thickness with a larger battery.
Ram:
I do cross-platform development in C++. I am building and testing GUIs on Linux, Windows and macOS. Having extra ram to throw at my VMs would be great. Being able to have my four primary development VMs running with adequate ram and being able to boot up another VM to debug an issue in another OS version would be great. 32GB would be nice, but 16GB will be just fine. If there had been a larger battery instead of a thinner case, maybe they could have allowed another memory controller…
Summary:
I was planning on spending $3200 on a new MBP because there was need for a new machine in my household. I could use to upgrade storage from 512GB to 1TB. The extra CPU bump for compiling would have been nice. The improved screen sounds great. However, with the addition of the Touch Bar and new ports, the ergonomics are reduced (cables on both sides, plus dongles), and the cost would now be at least $3700. With tax and AppleCare this is pushing well over $4,000. But in the end the improvements for me would be a faster CPU, larger HD and nicer screen. the downside would be messing up the ergonomics of my setup, and making my machine more prone to damage from falls.
Maybe in a few years once there are more significant improvements in the internals, and there are more displays providing TB3 connectivity, I'll feel the cost is justified. For now, the loaded previous model is available as a refurb for $2600. I won't need any new cables, everything else in my setup will work with it, and I can get a faster CPU, GPU and larger SSD. The main thing I will miss out on is bump in GPU and move from Crystalwell to Skylake. I'm willing to sacrifice that for $1100.
MagSafe:
I have three 85W MagSafe adapters. Replacing these would cost an extra $200 over the cost of the machine. I have four kids, two of which are toddlers. Sometimes I am working somewhere not at my desk and the cord gets pulled or tripped on.
TouchBar:
About 70% of the time I am at my desk using an extra Apple keyboard and magic trackpad. There is no option for an external Touch Bar. I'm not going to get used to using a feature only available to me 30% of the time. The price difference of the Touch Bar appears to be about $300 (comparing last year's model and the 13" non-Touch Bar to the Touch Bar model). That is a lot of money for something I am not going to use.
USB-C:
I don't really have a problem with USB-C (other than losing MagSafe), but it does mean buying new cables and some dongles (~$80 in my case). However, the big issue is that I spend 70% of time at my desk with my power, 32" 4K display, headphones and lighting cable (trackpad changing and iPhone) plugged in. Currently these can all plug in on the same side of the device. On the other side I have a USB port and SD card reader for those occurrences I need it. This leads to "docking" and "undocking" being straight forward, and a clean and tidy desk. With the new MBP I would have to have cable plugging in on both sides of the machine. My desk is small enough that this would lead to cables hanging off the edge of my desk, which would lead to things getting tangled and generally messy. The other option would be to drop $250-$300 on a Thunderbolt 3 dock and stash it all behind my monitor. But that just raises the price even more.
Physical Size:
I don't need a thinner computer. The case I need to protect my laptop is far thicker than the laptop itself. It doesn't make my life better in any way to have a thinner machine. It would make my life better to have the same thickness with a larger battery.
Ram:
I do cross-platform development in C++. I am building and testing GUIs on Linux, Windows and macOS. Having extra ram to throw at my VMs would be great. Being able to have my four primary development VMs running with adequate ram and being able to boot up another VM to debug an issue in another OS version would be great. 32GB would be nice, but 16GB will be just fine. If there had been a larger battery instead of a thinner case, maybe they could have allowed another memory controller…
Summary:
I was planning on spending $3200 on a new MBP because there was need for a new machine in my household. I could use to upgrade storage from 512GB to 1TB. The extra CPU bump for compiling would have been nice. The improved screen sounds great. However, with the addition of the Touch Bar and new ports, the ergonomics are reduced (cables on both sides, plus dongles), and the cost would now be at least $3700. With tax and AppleCare this is pushing well over $4,000. But in the end the improvements for me would be a faster CPU, larger HD and nicer screen. the downside would be messing up the ergonomics of my setup, and making my machine more prone to damage from falls.
Maybe in a few years once there are more significant improvements in the internals, and there are more displays providing TB3 connectivity, I'll feel the cost is justified. For now, the loaded previous model is available as a refurb for $2600. I won't need any new cables, everything else in my setup will work with it, and I can get a faster CPU, GPU and larger SSD. The main thing I will miss out on is bump in GPU and move from Crystalwell to Skylake. I'm willing to sacrifice that for $1100.
there's actually a sort of external Touch Bar in case you need one http://quadro.me
I want to know if the hardware/OS supports a future 'touch-bar keyboard' extending the functionality to external devices
because otherwise it's useless to me, and I think pretty much everyone I work with
because otherwise it's useless to me, and I think pretty much everyone I work with
From what I've seen of the latest Apple devices, they make sense to Apple if Apple wants greater integration between OS X and iOS, as in eventually having a single OS on all Apple devices. The new bar on the keyboard helps with iOS-style swipe gestures, standardisation on USB Type C means peripherals can target iOS and OS X devices, etc...
That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.
That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.
How do you target iOS with USB Type C?
Perhaps that was a bit of a stretch, though both are protocol-agnostic, so switching from Lightning to USB-C in the future may not be as problematic as it could be.
> And as IBM reported a couple weeks ago, even at higher prices, Macs tend to be cheaper to own. I’m writing this on a mid-2010 non-Retina 13-inch MacBook Pro I bought six years ago last June. Yes, over time I increased the memory to from four to 16 gigs, took the hard drive up from 240 gigs to a terabyte Fusion drive, replaced both the battery and the keyboard when they wore out, but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device with which I have so far generated well over $1 million in revenue.
My own experience with Apple's computers has been similar. The last Apple I purchased was a MacBook Pro back in 2006/7 that lasted me a solid eight years, including three in an extremely hot and dusty environment. The only problem it ever had was a faulty optical drive (and I did always have lots of trouble with Apple's laptop optical drives). But that is just one more individual experience.
Anyway, I don't know that "revenue generated while using the computer" really says anything at all. And I doubt Apple would come out ahead in that calculation industry wide.
My own experience with Apple's computers has been similar. The last Apple I purchased was a MacBook Pro back in 2006/7 that lasted me a solid eight years, including three in an extremely hot and dusty environment. The only problem it ever had was a faulty optical drive (and I did always have lots of trouble with Apple's laptop optical drives). But that is just one more individual experience.
Anyway, I don't know that "revenue generated while using the computer" really says anything at all. And I doubt Apple would come out ahead in that calculation industry wide.
> And as IBM reported a couple weeks ago, even at higher prices, Macs tend to be cheaper to own.
>but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device
I always forget how dis-attached and money-blind pro-apple authors are from the 98% of people and how they approach money. I guess if I was in the 1%, I'd also think Apple was the cheap option! (I'd probably also think that about Lexus and BMW...)
$1600 over 6 years, or about $270 a year, is not inexpensive and the false label "cheaper to own" is absurd to the highest degree.
I could go out right now and buy a $600 laptop, a $200 chromebook, and be out $800 dollars. Then I could build a $500 rather powerful budget desktop, and be at $1300, with three devices, and have $300 leftover for repairs or upgrades.
I could buy a $800 laptop and another one in 3-6 years for that price.
I could buy an iPad, a Chromebook, and a $600 laptop. I could buy three $500 laptops.
There is no universe in existence where spending $1600 total cost of ownership in 6 years approaches ANYTHING CLOSE to "cheaper to own".
Frankly, I DON'T EVEN KNOW windows users who have spent $1600 in the past 6 years total, except for hardcore PC gamers whose hardware so dramatically eclipses the medium-grade consumer level tech in Apple laptops that to compare them is entertaining and silly.
>but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device
I always forget how dis-attached and money-blind pro-apple authors are from the 98% of people and how they approach money. I guess if I was in the 1%, I'd also think Apple was the cheap option! (I'd probably also think that about Lexus and BMW...)
$1600 over 6 years, or about $270 a year, is not inexpensive and the false label "cheaper to own" is absurd to the highest degree.
I could go out right now and buy a $600 laptop, a $200 chromebook, and be out $800 dollars. Then I could build a $500 rather powerful budget desktop, and be at $1300, with three devices, and have $300 leftover for repairs or upgrades.
I could buy a $800 laptop and another one in 3-6 years for that price.
I could buy an iPad, a Chromebook, and a $600 laptop. I could buy three $500 laptops.
There is no universe in existence where spending $1600 total cost of ownership in 6 years approaches ANYTHING CLOSE to "cheaper to own".
Frankly, I DON'T EVEN KNOW windows users who have spent $1600 in the past 6 years total, except for hardcore PC gamers whose hardware so dramatically eclipses the medium-grade consumer level tech in Apple laptops that to compare them is entertaining and silly.
When my son went to college I told him, you can have an AirBook, or you can get a Levono Yoga and replace it every 2 years. He choose the Yoga and he is still using it 3 years later.
If the machines have the same build quality (or, another more subtle thing Apple's laptops have, an air around them that they should be handled with care) and the software is secure (Windows had (has?) real problems with viruses and shit), then I don't see why anyone would have to replace their laptop after 5 years anymore. CPU's are fast enough and software isn't getting more bloated. Memory is abundant and cheap. SSD's solved the last main bottleneck in computers 5+ years ago.
I have a PC at home, almost passing the 5 year mark now. No problems with it, fast enough, plays the latest games. Only problems I've had with it was corrupted memory banks, but I'm inclined to think that's more to do with installing it myself than anything.
I have a PC at home, almost passing the 5 year mark now. No problems with it, fast enough, plays the latest games. Only problems I've had with it was corrupted memory banks, but I'm inclined to think that's more to do with installing it myself than anything.
How do viruses relate to hardware longevity? Are there viruses in the wild bricking Windows PCs?
I bought an $850 Thinkpad T410 in 2010. Every time I've checked new laptops in the past couple of years I concluded that it wasn't worth upgrading - I'd only get a twofold increase in performance for $800+.
(Also reduced weight and increased battery life, but as a 6 ft. guy with a roommy backpack, carrying a 5 lbs laptop and a 1.5 lbs spare battery is not a problem.)
It still works fine but I ended up buying a higher spec'ed* mint-condition refurbished T410 for $250 this year, and a USB3 expansion card. I expect to get a good run out of it since I can cannibalize the old one for parts.
Not everyone has the time and know-how to service their own laptop, but for someone who does, like me, the nice thing with the Thinkpad ecosystem is the abundance of cheap end-of-lease refurbished parts and accessories, which are i) cheap and ii) probably better maintained than what you can get used from some bloke on craigslist.
(But the flipside is that new Lenovo parts and accessories are horrendously overpriced, since they target businesses.)
*HDD vs SSD, 8gb vs 4gb memory, i7 vs i5, 1400x900 vs 1280x800, discrete vs integrated graphics.
I bought an $850 Thinkpad T410 in 2010. Every time I've checked new laptops in the past couple of years I concluded that it wasn't worth upgrading - I'd only get a twofold increase in performance for $800+.
(Also reduced weight and increased battery life, but as a 6 ft. guy with a roommy backpack, carrying a 5 lbs laptop and a 1.5 lbs spare battery is not a problem.)
It still works fine but I ended up buying a higher spec'ed* mint-condition refurbished T410 for $250 this year, and a USB3 expansion card. I expect to get a good run out of it since I can cannibalize the old one for parts.
Not everyone has the time and know-how to service their own laptop, but for someone who does, like me, the nice thing with the Thinkpad ecosystem is the abundance of cheap end-of-lease refurbished parts and accessories, which are i) cheap and ii) probably better maintained than what you can get used from some bloke on craigslist.
(But the flipside is that new Lenovo parts and accessories are horrendously overpriced, since they target businesses.)
*HDD vs SSD, 8gb vs 4gb memory, i7 vs i5, 1400x900 vs 1280x800, discrete vs integrated graphics.
My Lenovo, which cost >$800 and had a $120 SSD upgrade from 2007 still runs just fine. What alternative evidence is there that macs last longer other than fanatical circle jerking?
Do those upgrades listed include labor at apple care? The numbers don't even add up.
Not to mention, unless there have been some large strides in macOS lately, older apple products seem to lag pretty hard when you upgrade to the current OS and basically stop working if you don't. Windows 10 runs great on old PCs and many apps still function all the way back to Windows Vista.
Do those upgrades listed include labor at apple care? The numbers don't even add up.
Not to mention, unless there have been some large strides in macOS lately, older apple products seem to lag pretty hard when you upgrade to the current OS and basically stop working if you don't. Windows 10 runs great on old PCs and many apps still function all the way back to Windows Vista.
From what I found, Apple's laptops are sligthly above average in terms of reliability [0]. Sqaretrade sells warranties though, so there might be some selection bias, but I'm not sure if it would benefit Apple or not.
[0] https://resource.squaretrade.com/laptop-reliability-1109
[0] https://resource.squaretrade.com/laptop-reliability-1109
I'm willing to assume the selection bias affects all brands in a similar enough way to call it even. The bigger issues is that this is 7 years old now, I wouldn't rely on it too much unless you're buying an 8-10 year old laptop.
Parent didn't include a link, but I guess they're talking about this: http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-ch...
The IBM guy said Macs are more expensive to buy but cheaper to support, because
>Only 5% of IBM's Mac employees needed help-desk support, versus 40% of PC users
Guessing what percentage of Linux users needed help desk support is left as an exercise to the reader.
The economics of a business maintaining a fleet of laptops for mostly clueless users vs a tech-savvy individual maintaining their own laptop are not the same.
Also keep in mind that IBM started a Mac enterprise integration service last year. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
The IBM guy said Macs are more expensive to buy but cheaper to support, because
>Only 5% of IBM's Mac employees needed help-desk support, versus 40% of PC users
Guessing what percentage of Linux users needed help desk support is left as an exercise to the reader.
The economics of a business maintaining a fleet of laptops for mostly clueless users vs a tech-savvy individual maintaining their own laptop are not the same.
Also keep in mind that IBM started a Mac enterprise integration service last year. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
Indeed. As soon as you're willing to accept something a bit less pretty and slighly clunkier in usability, you can save a huge amount of money over Apple devices.
from the article:
->socking it to the customer when a new product is released is a tradition in Cupertino dating back to the Apple III.
Remember the original 128K Macintosh cost more than $2400 and it was close to useless.
____ Does anyone know at what point it was that Apple blew up after firing jobs and had to call him back. was it before or after this?
->socking it to the customer when a new product is released is a tradition in Cupertino dating back to the Apple III.
Remember the original 128K Macintosh cost more than $2400 and it was close to useless.
____ Does anyone know at what point it was that Apple blew up after firing jobs and had to call him back. was it before or after this?
> Remember the original 128K Macintosh cost more than $2400 and it was close to useless.
As opposed to the other 68K offerings at the time it was pretty good, it brought window managed user interfaces to the masses (rather than those Apollo workstations that probably nobody remembers).
The ST was a game changer price wise but that 'useless' 128K Mac in many ways wrote history.
As opposed to the other 68K offerings at the time it was pretty good, it brought window managed user interfaces to the masses (rather than those Apollo workstations that probably nobody remembers).
The ST was a game changer price wise but that 'useless' 128K Mac in many ways wrote history.
I'd never heard of the Apple III.
My question was where it fitted in Jobs 86 departure from apple.
My question was where it fitted in Jobs 86 departure from apple.
pinaceae(3)
But the new MacBooks are not upgradable (like the previous models). Will 256 GB SSD and 16 gig RAM be enough in 8 years? It will really depend on what you use your laptop for, but for most professions I would say no.
You sure about that? It's a removable part.
http://blog.macsales.com/38440-ssd-in-late-2016-entry-level-...
It may take a while for a 3rd party replacement to become available, but it's not soldered onto the motherboard. If you take it to Apple with a SSD failure, they're not going to bill you $800 for a new logic board to fix it.
Not sure where this assumption came from. It's like everyone's saying "I don't like this computer, so everything about it must be terrible."
http://blog.macsales.com/38440-ssd-in-late-2016-entry-level-...
It may take a while for a 3rd party replacement to become available, but it's not soldered onto the motherboard. If you take it to Apple with a SSD failure, they're not going to bill you $800 for a new logic board to fix it.
Not sure where this assumption came from. It's like everyone's saying "I don't like this computer, so everything about it must be terrible."
I loved taking my 2013 maxed out RMBP to the Apple Store and being told the charging circuit for the battery needed to be replaced. Oh good, I thought, maybe $200?
No. $795+tax. "You might want to look at buying a new Mac" which got me same screen, same SSD, same memory, CPU from Haswell to Broadwell... I love planned obsolescence and "part pricing to encourage replacement, not repair".
No. $795+tax. "You might want to look at buying a new Mac" which got me same screen, same SSD, same memory, CPU from Haswell to Broadwell... I love planned obsolescence and "part pricing to encourage replacement, not repair".
It doesn't seem like anyone really read beyond the headline for that IBM keynote. He was only referring to the difference in cost for enterprise support across 100,000 machines.
Exactly. The headline of the article[0] Cringely links - IBM says it is 3X more expensive to manage PCs than Macs - doesn't even say anything about Apple computers being "cheaper to own", as Cringely puts it.
Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thing. I stopped when I got to third paragraph because it seemed like an odd statement with no real backup other than the very general quote from IBM -
> There are lots of reasons for this, not least that better OS software means Apple needs to update its systems far less often than Microsoft updates Windows. "We have to go out and manage the Mac environment 104 fewer times a year than PC," Previn said.
I don't doubt IBM's information here by any means, but just as with Cringley's and my own example of consumer MacBook ownership, it's only one example - "IBM finds Apple computers cheaper to manage", not "Apple computers are cheaper to own".
[0] http://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/apple-mac/ibm-s...
Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thing. I stopped when I got to third paragraph because it seemed like an odd statement with no real backup other than the very general quote from IBM -
> There are lots of reasons for this, not least that better OS software means Apple needs to update its systems far less often than Microsoft updates Windows. "We have to go out and manage the Mac environment 104 fewer times a year than PC," Previn said.
I don't doubt IBM's information here by any means, but just as with Cringley's and my own example of consumer MacBook ownership, it's only one example - "IBM finds Apple computers cheaper to manage", not "Apple computers are cheaper to own".
[0] http://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/apple-mac/ibm-s...
Wasn't one of the main premises of it that it reduced IT support time? "Only 5% of IBM's Mac employees needed help desk support versus 40% of PC users." In that case, it's even less of a relevant comparison now.
[0]: http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-ch...
[0]: http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-ch...
I think what the article fails to touch on is that people (myself included) used to love upgrading to the new Apple products because of new innovations or upgraded tech. The second-hand market for Apple products shouldn't be looked at as a problem, but rather a new demographic of people entering the ecosystem which might have been out of their price range otherwise.
For me, I was itching for a reason to upgrade from my 2012 rMBP and to be honest, I have no plans to now. I don't want a thinner or lighter laptop, I just want everything to work all at once and some better battery life. The USB-C (and they fact that they didn't even mention it during the terrible keynote) was my biggest drawback, because now I literally have to buy adapters to plug in to my pre-existing adapters for this damn thing to work... Nope.
When Apple got rid of the CD/DVD drive, or FireWire, it wasn't this much of an issue because I could agree that those were things I didn't use (along with the vast majority). But with the headphone jack (on the iPhones only thankfully), and now the SD card reader, USB, HDMI, and Mini-DP... All things I use on an almost daily basis. It sucks that people will have to buy ~ $100 of adapters to get their old functionality back.
Also, if they're really touting this thing as such a professional's device, then their magical touch bar is even more flawed. I plug in external monitors when I use Final Cut Pro, Lightroom, Photoshop, etc. - most of their demos. Looking at a different monitor and then using the touch bar seems like such an awkward gesture.
For me, I was itching for a reason to upgrade from my 2012 rMBP and to be honest, I have no plans to now. I don't want a thinner or lighter laptop, I just want everything to work all at once and some better battery life. The USB-C (and they fact that they didn't even mention it during the terrible keynote) was my biggest drawback, because now I literally have to buy adapters to plug in to my pre-existing adapters for this damn thing to work... Nope.
When Apple got rid of the CD/DVD drive, or FireWire, it wasn't this much of an issue because I could agree that those were things I didn't use (along with the vast majority). But with the headphone jack (on the iPhones only thankfully), and now the SD card reader, USB, HDMI, and Mini-DP... All things I use on an almost daily basis. It sucks that people will have to buy ~ $100 of adapters to get their old functionality back.
Also, if they're really touting this thing as such a professional's device, then their magical touch bar is even more flawed. I plug in external monitors when I use Final Cut Pro, Lightroom, Photoshop, etc. - most of their demos. Looking at a different monitor and then using the touch bar seems like such an awkward gesture.
I'm in the same boat. I have a MBP 2012 (non-retina), and could probably use an upgrade (although I just built a powerful desktop PC). I could deal with the removal of Ethernet, but the fact that I'll have to purchase 3 separate adapters (given I'll leave the fourth port for charging) is ridiculous. On top of that, the price is inexcusable. The lowest-end MacBook Pro costs $1,500 and has a 2.0GHz Dual-Core processor (which my current Mac outperforms), 8GB of RAM, a 256GB SSD, Intel Iris Graphics 540 (nothing impressive for a "pro" device), and two Thunderbolt 3 ports (only one port is accessible while charging...). Oh, and it doesn't even sport the new "touch bar" gimmick. For an extra $400, you get a faster clock speed (on a dual-core...), slightly faster RAM, and two extra ports. Point being, every model is extremely overpriced.
Now, it's not the best comparison, as desktops and laptops have their own benefits, but if someone was to build a PC with the specs of the cheapest MacBook Pro (excluding peripherals), it would cost significantly less
Now, it's not the best comparison, as desktops and laptops have their own benefits, but if someone was to build a PC with the specs of the cheapest MacBook Pro (excluding peripherals), it would cost significantly less
This is a better-reasoned opinion than much of Cringely's recent work. That's not exactly a recommendation, though. He's an idea guy, some of which he shares, some of which he doesn't, but it's another thing to execute on said ideas.
Hey Apple acts like they don't care about competition but they do. So I really think all of this is good. I find it impossible to believe Tim Cook himself hasn't read these posts.
Second post, I did find it interesting another blog compares Cook to Balmer. both expanded their companies bottom lines but both also reigned over a stagnation of innovation
I was eagerly waiting for the release of a new MacBook Pro, but when I saw the Apple keynote, my first/only reaction was to buy a new mid-2015 model to upgrade my mid-2009 one. Great upgrade, btw. I want to see what are apple's next moves, I just secured more 4-5 years on a great and stable laptop.
Just speculating: maybe Tim Cook wants to force a decline in sales in order to justify the killing of the low-performant MacBook line? Hackintoshes are fairly common nowadays and external keyboard and trackpad 2 can keep the great interaction provided by OSX.
Just speculating: maybe Tim Cook wants to force a decline in sales in order to justify the killing of the low-performant MacBook line? Hackintoshes are fairly common nowadays and external keyboard and trackpad 2 can keep the great interaction provided by OSX.
>> I was eagerly waiting for the release of a new MacBook Pro, but when I saw the Apple keynote, my first/only reaction was to buy a new mid-2015 model to upgrade my mid-2009 one.
As much as we like to hate on the new MBP (myself included) -- in the grander scheme of things, the new MBP is a more than competent Mac laptop for a lot of people.
The thing with people who spend a lot of time with computers is that we're an extremely passionate bunch. And because we're so passionate, we pay attention to the small details that matter most to us, while assuming those details have equal importance to everyone else, when that may not be the case.
I tend to think a lot of people, including those who aren't terribly happy about the changes, will begrudgingly accept these changes over time. If you're a fan of the Mac operating system, you don't really have many other places to go, even if those places are functionally equivalent.
For a lot of people who hate the changes in the new MBP, staying on macOS is still better than having to switch to Windows.
As much as we like to hate on the new MBP (myself included) -- in the grander scheme of things, the new MBP is a more than competent Mac laptop for a lot of people.
The thing with people who spend a lot of time with computers is that we're an extremely passionate bunch. And because we're so passionate, we pay attention to the small details that matter most to us, while assuming those details have equal importance to everyone else, when that may not be the case.
I tend to think a lot of people, including those who aren't terribly happy about the changes, will begrudgingly accept these changes over time. If you're a fan of the Mac operating system, you don't really have many other places to go, even if those places are functionally equivalent.
For a lot of people who hate the changes in the new MBP, staying on macOS is still better than having to switch to Windows.
Putting aside the ports discussion, the stagnant performance of the Macbook Pro is just kind of where the market's at - Apple uses Intel chips and Intel slammed up against Moore's Law quite a few years ago. Looking at current ThinkPad offerings, it looks like I can get a $4,000 7.5-pound luggable with a mobile Xeon CPU (Thinkpad P70) but I'm not sure how much extra performance that buys me.
The lack of 32GB options on Macbook Pros is definitely frustrating, though.
The lack of 32GB options on Macbook Pros is definitely frustrating, though.
That's a pretty cherry-picked comparison.
"Ultra expensive, ultra heavy".
Or you could get a Dell Precision 7510, 6.2lb (versus 5.5lb), Xeon CPU... for $2300.
"Ultra expensive, ultra heavy".
Or you could get a Dell Precision 7510, 6.2lb (versus 5.5lb), Xeon CPU... for $2300.
You are only looking at CPU, though. What about memory, and why does Apple not care about a "Pro" having more than 16GB RAM?
Apparently, the lack of a higher capacity RAM was due to the performance/energy ratio.
https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944
https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944
Their ethnocentric headphone design discriminates against those with larger ears.
So many unused headphones, so much waste....
So many unused headphones, so much waste....
What's notably absent from from Apple is the passion for the product. Sure Jony is passionate for design. BUT Steve would bring the passion and frame the product and exactly how it's innovative and will change things.
At these past keynotes for example product managers have given canned passionless presentations for Apple products. Like the Apple TV presentation from last week
At these past keynotes for example product managers have given canned passionless presentations for Apple products. Like the Apple TV presentation from last week
> As Steve Jobs (and Picasso) said, they are stolen.
AFAIK, Picasso didn't.
AFAIK, Picasso didn't.
Johnny Ive and company are ruining the firm that and people reportedly being overworked. They should have bought Tesla and made the model 3 their iCar and not gimped the pro-sumer laptops with midrange GPUs and 16GB of ram.
they are leveraging their watch tech as a very expensive value-add.
So some analyst thinks Apple should get into the content business. Yawn. For largely historical reasons we have a model that is divided between content producers and content distributors. Apple is essentially (at best) a distributor not a producer. It's good to have this separation (which at least in part came about from the Paramount decision). If Apple becomes a producer too then that could hurt their distribution efforts (eg trying to make the Apple TV a distribution platform).
The real problem with post-Jobs Apple is that Jobs had a vision and Tim Cook does not. Don't get me wrong: Cook has done wonders on the logistics and provisioning front to turn Apple into the behemoth but is he the leader Apple really needs? I have doubts.
When Apple announced the watch, I raised an eyebrow. Personally I think smartwatches are stupid. The tech just isn't there yet (battery life, size, etc). Apple traditionally only got into markets once they were proven. That wasn't (and still isn't) the case with smartwatches.
Look at Apple's change in direction. The first Apple Watch was positioned like a luxury brand (another change for Apple). This one is focused on health and fitness. Even there it's a compromise (eg for any serious exercise with a heart rate monitor you need a chest strap and no one has yet invented an HRM without one that's sufficiently accurate without one under stress). But constant health monitoring and potentially warning before you have a major health event (eg stroke, heart attack) is a real potential growth market. But again, the tech just isn't there yet.
Steve Jobs famously stuck to having one mouse button. I think he was wrong on this one. The right-click is here to stay but he did have a point about discoverability. So I was once again shocked when Apple introduced Force/3D Touch as it has even more discoverability and consistency problems. It also adds weight and cost. The haptic home button is also (IMHO) a step backwards.
And again, ditching the headphone jack seems too soon. In another shock, Apple's Ear Pods have been "delayed". Has Apple ever not had their shit together to delay a product after announcement like this?
So phones are becoming if they haven't already a commodity. What I mean is that pretty much any smartphone you buy now is probably going to be good enough, even the prepaid phones you buy for $150 or less. Oh the hardware front, only these things seem to matter now:
- Display (although arguably they are or soon will be all good enough)
- Battery life only to the point that it's sufficient (ie beyond a certain point it doesn't matter and they'll all get to that point)
- The camera
One the last one it does seem like the Pixel is better than the iPhone 7 (disclaimer: I work for Google).
After that, it's software the matters and is the real differentiator between phones (IMHO). iOS, once clean, simple and elegant, seems to have gotten clunkier, confused and is suffering more from feature bloat. That's natural if product managers and UI/UX people aren't reined in.
This is mirrored in OSX, which seems to have gotten worse starting with Yosemite.
The real problem with post-Jobs Apple is that Jobs had a vision and Tim Cook does not. Don't get me wrong: Cook has done wonders on the logistics and provisioning front to turn Apple into the behemoth but is he the leader Apple really needs? I have doubts.
When Apple announced the watch, I raised an eyebrow. Personally I think smartwatches are stupid. The tech just isn't there yet (battery life, size, etc). Apple traditionally only got into markets once they were proven. That wasn't (and still isn't) the case with smartwatches.
Look at Apple's change in direction. The first Apple Watch was positioned like a luxury brand (another change for Apple). This one is focused on health and fitness. Even there it's a compromise (eg for any serious exercise with a heart rate monitor you need a chest strap and no one has yet invented an HRM without one that's sufficiently accurate without one under stress). But constant health monitoring and potentially warning before you have a major health event (eg stroke, heart attack) is a real potential growth market. But again, the tech just isn't there yet.
Steve Jobs famously stuck to having one mouse button. I think he was wrong on this one. The right-click is here to stay but he did have a point about discoverability. So I was once again shocked when Apple introduced Force/3D Touch as it has even more discoverability and consistency problems. It also adds weight and cost. The haptic home button is also (IMHO) a step backwards.
And again, ditching the headphone jack seems too soon. In another shock, Apple's Ear Pods have been "delayed". Has Apple ever not had their shit together to delay a product after announcement like this?
So phones are becoming if they haven't already a commodity. What I mean is that pretty much any smartphone you buy now is probably going to be good enough, even the prepaid phones you buy for $150 or less. Oh the hardware front, only these things seem to matter now:
- Display (although arguably they are or soon will be all good enough)
- Battery life only to the point that it's sufficient (ie beyond a certain point it doesn't matter and they'll all get to that point)
- The camera
One the last one it does seem like the Pixel is better than the iPhone 7 (disclaimer: I work for Google).
After that, it's software the matters and is the real differentiator between phones (IMHO). iOS, once clean, simple and elegant, seems to have gotten clunkier, confused and is suffering more from feature bloat. That's natural if product managers and UI/UX people aren't reined in.
This is mirrored in OSX, which seems to have gotten worse starting with Yosemite.
beautiful qed - armchair product guy analyses situation (ok viewpoint), then makes a suggestion so asinine that it acts as a reminder just how hard product work is.
as tech is becoming mainstream, more and more "football coaches" will spout their nonsense, just like in sports.
as tech is becoming mainstream, more and more "football coaches" will spout their nonsense, just like in sports.
Everything about Apple these days points to the same elephant in the room: their top management are just a bunch of clueless salesmen without their leader.
Cook isn't a sales guy -- he's operations. Still an elephant in the room though; there's a natural tension between trying new things and streamlining your existing things.
[deleted]
> Yet writers, like most actors, are notoriously underpaid.
...according to writers.
Writers seem to me to be paid at a market clearing rate, with the protection of a union. It seems to me that if they were truly underpaid they might find a better use for their time.
...according to writers.
Writers seem to me to be paid at a market clearing rate, with the protection of a union. It seems to me that if they were truly underpaid they might find a better use for their time.
Apple has gone cheap. That's what is wrong. The Late 2012 Mac Mini I bought recently died for no apparent reason. It had upgradeable hard disks and memory. The 2014 version I just replaced it with has 4GB of RAM soldered onto the board and the case is designed not to be opened at all. That is just one small example, but a) the one I had shouldn't have died, and b) the replacement isn't anywhere as good as the old one.
Apple, I'm done. You fucked me and I'm done.
Apple, I'm done. You fucked me and I'm done.
[deleted]
Go Cringely! Very interesting proposition. I am a believer that when we free ourselves from surviving day to day (to which we are pretty close), that the creatives will be the people in the highest demand. Or at least I can dream of such a day.
So higher supply will create higher demand?
More free time to spend on leisure activities will create higher demand.
Demand for talent has skyrocketed over the last 5 years.
Demand for talent has skyrocketed over the last 5 years.
What is going to happen imho:
Apple is doing and will do a shitload of money anyway.
People will buy Apple stuff anyway because people already are: unless you are an Apple user, you should know how "religious" (I'm being kind here) Apple users are. They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too.
Also, unless Apple software actively gets in the way of users doing their stuff it is all going to be "okay".
So this is going to last anything from five to ten years at least, still imho.
I have no true idea whether newer apple stuff is so bad or not (besides the idiotic drop of the audio jack on the iPhone). But Apple users have been subject to this Apple-isy for literally decades.
I have a suspicion that now that Apple Macbook Pros are so widespread, complaining about Apple is the new hipsteria.
This is what I feel, reading the news, on a foggy October, almost-November morning.
Apple is doing and will do a shitload of money anyway.
People will buy Apple stuff anyway because people already are: unless you are an Apple user, you should know how "religious" (I'm being kind here) Apple users are. They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too.
Also, unless Apple software actively gets in the way of users doing their stuff it is all going to be "okay".
So this is going to last anything from five to ten years at least, still imho.
I have no true idea whether newer apple stuff is so bad or not (besides the idiotic drop of the audio jack on the iPhone). But Apple users have been subject to this Apple-isy for literally decades.
I have a suspicion that now that Apple Macbook Pros are so widespread, complaining about Apple is the new hipsteria.
This is what I feel, reading the news, on a foggy October, almost-November morning.
"People will buy Apple stuff anyway because people already are: unless you are an Apple user, you should know how "religious" (I'm being kind here) Apple users are. They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too."
This is a usual mistake people make. They assume that performance is simply a matter of specifications. It's not.
This is a usual mistake people make. They assume that performance is simply a matter of specifications. It's not.
Apple has been getting bad press these days because:
- A lot of employees left the Apple Car project, it is now reduced to software only
- Siri is lagging behind other assistants
- Removed the audio jack off the iPhone
- Removed USB ports on the macbook
The only exception, Apple Music, is catching up to Spotify but that comes at the cost of paying for exclusives.
The only exception, Apple Music, is catching up to Spotify but that comes at the cost of paying for exclusives.
Also declining software reliability; declining hardware performance; lack of real vision or creativity; emphasis on superficial hardware changes (smaller, thinner, etc) over engineering significant new classes of customer benefits.
Removed the USB ports? Actually they doubled the number of USB ports from 2 to 4 and they upgraded them to the latest standard USB-C.
A few years back people bought Nokia phones because they were the best you could get. Some people would never buy something else. The same with blackberry a few years later.
The fanbase clearly helps Apple at the moment, but it can disappear within a few years if another company manages to make something truly better.
The fanbase clearly helps Apple at the moment, but it can disappear within a few years if another company manages to make something truly better.
>>They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too.
It's not about the hardware. It's about the tight and seamless integration between the hardware and the software. The competitors are living in a completely different reality in that regard.
It's not about the hardware. It's about the tight and seamless integration between the hardware and the software. The competitors are living in a completely different reality in that regard.
> It's not about the hardware. It's about the tight and seamless integration between the hardware and the software. The competitors are living in a completely different reality in that regard.
Y'know, you're not wrong, but here's the thing: once I set up a Linux desktop or laptop, it just works, just like a Mac does. From what I can ascertain, Windows is the same. It's not like the 80s, dealing with IRQs and what-not. Linux is a little more annoying, with proprietary drivers for some graphics cards, but again: once it's set up, it runs. The integration is just as tight as on a Mac: the hard drive stores data (with a better file system than HFS+ …); the graphics card displays graphics; the USB system delivers data; the headphone ports play music.
Not only that, but I also have freedom, which is no small thing. So, the experience is a bit worse at set-up time, and better on an ongoing basis. That's not a bad trade-off.
Y'know, you're not wrong, but here's the thing: once I set up a Linux desktop or laptop, it just works, just like a Mac does. From what I can ascertain, Windows is the same. It's not like the 80s, dealing with IRQs and what-not. Linux is a little more annoying, with proprietary drivers for some graphics cards, but again: once it's set up, it runs. The integration is just as tight as on a Mac: the hard drive stores data (with a better file system than HFS+ …); the graphics card displays graphics; the USB system delivers data; the headphone ports play music.
Not only that, but I also have freedom, which is no small thing. So, the experience is a bit worse at set-up time, and better on an ongoing basis. That's not a bad trade-off.
I'm never going to buy an iPhone without a headphone jack, but reinstating the jack on a future model would be admitting they made a mistake with the iPhone 7.
Likewise, with the new MacBook Pros, they are not going to release an update in a year's time that doesn't sacrifice ports and performance and battery life for size and weight, because doing so would be admitting a mistake. Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone, because doing so would be admitting a mistake.