Ask YC: MBeA or to not be - is an MBA worth a hacker's time?
37 comments
I remember Steve Jobs in his speech at Stanford saying that he dropped out because he didn't see the value in it. That amused me :)
I can't say whether an MBA is worth it since I don't have one, but I can say that in my experience it's not necessary. Action is necessary. You can learn by jumping in and doing something. Some people may need teachers and curriculum for motivation/guidance, but you can find that in lots of other places as well. Networking happens after school too, but can take a bit more effort initially.
The back story in my case is I left home at 18 and moved to a new town. I was one credit shy of my high school diploma too, so technically I'm a drop-out. I lucked out and got a job as a designer/coder, and kept learning over time on the job. I did try a university course for programming, but I dropped it after a month because it sucked. I ended up starting my own software company shortly after (turned 7 this year!). I did make some good contacts in my month at school, even hired the program director as my sales guy for about 4-5 years :) I've been working on various startups since, learned a lot, and I'm launching my latest in a month or so.
So in my experience, nothing stops you from starting a business except yourself. If you're willing to learn by doing, which naturally you learn a lot on the job anyway, then I say screw the formal edu and dive right in!
I can't say whether an MBA is worth it since I don't have one, but I can say that in my experience it's not necessary. Action is necessary. You can learn by jumping in and doing something. Some people may need teachers and curriculum for motivation/guidance, but you can find that in lots of other places as well. Networking happens after school too, but can take a bit more effort initially.
The back story in my case is I left home at 18 and moved to a new town. I was one credit shy of my high school diploma too, so technically I'm a drop-out. I lucked out and got a job as a designer/coder, and kept learning over time on the job. I did try a university course for programming, but I dropped it after a month because it sucked. I ended up starting my own software company shortly after (turned 7 this year!). I did make some good contacts in my month at school, even hired the program director as my sales guy for about 4-5 years :) I've been working on various startups since, learned a lot, and I'm launching my latest in a month or so.
So in my experience, nothing stops you from starting a business except yourself. If you're willing to learn by doing, which naturally you learn a lot on the job anyway, then I say screw the formal edu and dive right in!
Yes, that speech is an all-time favorite I suppose amongst many dropouts. That is a quite a story you have there, lux; I suppose burning bridges can make one act, but indeed it takes a little bit prudence to guess when to burn the bridge. What I am trying to say is keep up the good work :) Please do drop me a line (click on profile name), I'd like to talk further about this, for I am having a hard time calling shots on value.
MBA - yes, it seems to be a tough call; so far,the most interesting thing a hacker MBA told me was that a lot of MBAs either do it because a) they don't know what they want to do next b) their current job sucks and want to get out of it.
MBA - yes, it seems to be a tough call; so far,the most interesting thing a hacker MBA told me was that a lot of MBAs either do it because a) they don't know what they want to do next b) their current job sucks and want to get out of it.
I don't think there's a "message me" option in the profile pages. I just posted my email to mine though, so feel free to email me :)
I have a slightly skewed perspective, but I spent four years working at a Wall St. firm, and discovered that, while many people in finance have MBAs, the best frequently do not. The placement even worked that way: an analyst out of college gets a two-year contract in banking or trading, then the bank makes a decision. The chaff gets thrown away, the mid-range is sent to an MBA program and returns at the associate level, but the best stay on for a third year as analysts and then immediately become associates.
This doesn't address the question very well, I suppose, and obviously people outside of finance get MBAs. I feel that, at the end of the day, an MBA program is what you make of it. It can be a valuable networking opportunity. It can be two years off from working full-time. If you're thinking of going into it to learn about derivatives and accounting, then I suspect you're better off learning it on your own.
This doesn't address the question very well, I suppose, and obviously people outside of finance get MBAs. I feel that, at the end of the day, an MBA program is what you make of it. It can be a valuable networking opportunity. It can be two years off from working full-time. If you're thinking of going into it to learn about derivatives and accounting, then I suspect you're better off learning it on your own.
It really depends on your situation and what you want to do. That being said, I can't see any MBA program being worthy of a hacker's time.
MIT's program is recognized as one of the most quantitative programs, but from experience, it is really not all that quantitative or analytical. My graduate program at MIT (TPP) was in the third floor of E40, right next to the Sloan School (across a walk bridge). I took some classes there (various econ courses). I helped TA one MBA class entitled Digital Business. My wife was a statistics TA there (PhD in OR dept., also in E40). And my one of my thesis advisors was a Sloan professor.
When I took classes there the actual MBA students (as opposed to other MIT grads and undergrads) were easily overwhelmed with the math and frankly not interested in it. Many would start and drop my wife's courses (through no fault of her own!). As a result, the actual MBA courses ended up being dumbed down, even though I wouldn't be surprised if the MIT program is more quantitative than others.
The MIT MBA program is also known as a more geek friendly place. There is an IT track you can select. But, similarly, the classes aren't for hackers at all. My wife took one of the core computer classes, and it was so ridiculously not hackeresque it wasn't even funny.
Anyway, you can easily learn everything on your own. Is there value in networking? Sure. But you can get that without spending $120K+. You can either enroll in a program like the one I did where you actually get paid to go to it (imagine that?). Or you can just start participating in the community (business plan competitions, talks, social events, etc.).
Are there other reasons to go? Sure. In many jobs on Wall St. you still need an MBA to cross a threshold in the company. My sister-in-law is in one of those jobs and they eventually paid for her to go to an executive MBA program on the weekends. She didn't learn anything there she didn't already know.
MIT's program is recognized as one of the most quantitative programs, but from experience, it is really not all that quantitative or analytical. My graduate program at MIT (TPP) was in the third floor of E40, right next to the Sloan School (across a walk bridge). I took some classes there (various econ courses). I helped TA one MBA class entitled Digital Business. My wife was a statistics TA there (PhD in OR dept., also in E40). And my one of my thesis advisors was a Sloan professor.
When I took classes there the actual MBA students (as opposed to other MIT grads and undergrads) were easily overwhelmed with the math and frankly not interested in it. Many would start and drop my wife's courses (through no fault of her own!). As a result, the actual MBA courses ended up being dumbed down, even though I wouldn't be surprised if the MIT program is more quantitative than others.
The MIT MBA program is also known as a more geek friendly place. There is an IT track you can select. But, similarly, the classes aren't for hackers at all. My wife took one of the core computer classes, and it was so ridiculously not hackeresque it wasn't even funny.
Anyway, you can easily learn everything on your own. Is there value in networking? Sure. But you can get that without spending $120K+. You can either enroll in a program like the one I did where you actually get paid to go to it (imagine that?). Or you can just start participating in the community (business plan competitions, talks, social events, etc.).
Are there other reasons to go? Sure. In many jobs on Wall St. you still need an MBA to cross a threshold in the company. My sister-in-law is in one of those jobs and they eventually paid for her to go to an executive MBA program on the weekends. She didn't learn anything there she didn't already know.
First of, I don't have an MBA but I contemplated it at one point. The conclusion I came to is that it's only worth it if it is a top 10 program.
In the case of a hacker I would probably go for a Stanford MBA due to to the connections you can make there as well as the tech friendly area. A lot of the North Eastern business schools are very finance heavy.
It may also be worthwhile to think of a sales/marketing MBA - combined with the hacker knowledge that seems like a win/win. Northwestern, I believe, is very good in that regard.
In the case of a hacker I would probably go for a Stanford MBA due to to the connections you can make there as well as the tech friendly area. A lot of the North Eastern business schools are very finance heavy.
It may also be worthwhile to think of a sales/marketing MBA - combined with the hacker knowledge that seems like a win/win. Northwestern, I believe, is very good in that regard.
MIT, Northwestern and Stanford all have great programs. But getting into those programs is easier said than done.
I did a part time MBA program that was designed specifically for working professionals. I found it to be very useful - not necessarily for the class material, but to learn first hand about the other industries that my classmates were working in. I found that this information could be very useful for identifying software opportunities that I wouldn't otherwise think of on my own. Ultimately, whether you go back to school for an MBA or an advanced technical degree, the program will be what you make of it.
It seems like a lot of people here are missing the point of an MBA. You don't get one primarily for what you learn; you get one for who you can meet. Sure, you're going to learn some stuff you didn't know, but top MBA programs are aimed at people who were in an industry for a couple of years and have experience. The purpose, learning wise, is to fine-tune your skills. You should go after an MBA mostly for the networking opportunities, not the learning opportunities.
I agree, but I'm not sure it's worth the $60-$100k (not including opportunity cost)... I would think if you live in a major metro that there are other venues for that.
Then again the credibility it brings if you want to go to finance in Wall St or move up in Big Corp X may be useful to some people (assuming that you go to a top 10 MBA program)... but probably not too useful to most of the people who come to yc news
Then again the credibility it brings if you want to go to finance in Wall St or move up in Big Corp X may be useful to some people (assuming that you go to a top 10 MBA program)... but probably not too useful to most of the people who come to yc news
Its going to cost you about $130,000 to get an MBA. (2$50,000 tuition + 215,000 living expenses) Think of all the bad-ass shit you can do with $130,000. You could buy all the sweetest electronics and hire an cheap electrical engineer fulltime for like two years and build something sick. You could invest that in your savings and be 5-10 years closer to retirement and then do fun things and not have to work for the man.
2x50,000 + 2x15,000 btw. Parser ate my stars. How do we escape this? backslash star?
I'd be too afraid it'd turn me into the kind of person many MBAs are. Work with assholes and you risk becoming an asshole. I learned that in the financial industry the hard way.
I don't think that businessperson 'asshole' stereotype is always well deserved. I've worked with a lot of MBAs who are competent, caring, and good at programming.
I don't think all business people are assholes and I didn't say that.
My point was really just to bring up the idea that the people you surround yourself with can have a big influence on who you become. There's a lot you can say about the way hackers behave in general and the same is true for MBAs. In both cases there are lots of exceptions.
My point was really just to bring up the idea that the people you surround yourself with can have a big influence on who you become. There's a lot you can say about the way hackers behave in general and the same is true for MBAs. In both cases there are lots of exceptions.
Yes. Though I would hesitate to endorse a particular degree of "added value" from an ivy-league branded MBA. Do a simple cost-benefit analysis.
It occurred to me, during graduate studies for my MBA (at a lovely state University, thank you very much), how various disciplines have their different lingo. Perhaps the most valuable thing I got from the program was instilled by osmosis -- the lingo associated with a variety of disciplines, industries, etc.
If anything, an MBA teaches you the lingo of lingos; that is, it doesn't so much teach how to be a "generalist" (as was stated earlier), but more about how to be a "relativist". There are interesting problems to be solved in a variety of industries, and knowing both l33t and business speak puts you in a much better position for dealing with a variety of different people.
It occurred to me, during graduate studies for my MBA (at a lovely state University, thank you very much), how various disciplines have their different lingo. Perhaps the most valuable thing I got from the program was instilled by osmosis -- the lingo associated with a variety of disciplines, industries, etc.
If anything, an MBA teaches you the lingo of lingos; that is, it doesn't so much teach how to be a "generalist" (as was stated earlier), but more about how to be a "relativist". There are interesting problems to be solved in a variety of industries, and knowing both l33t and business speak puts you in a much better position for dealing with a variety of different people.
There is a subtle but important difference between understanding how business function and going to business school, the former is more important when starting a startup.
If you want to learn more about the business aspects, move to a different role in your current company in the business side, like Sales, Sales engineering, etc.
The opportunity cost in time and money is another concern. You can take the 2 years of time, and probably less than 1/2 the amount you would spend on B school to startup your startup, which, would be a better learning opportunity.
If you want to learn more about the business aspects, move to a different role in your current company in the business side, like Sales, Sales engineering, etc.
The opportunity cost in time and money is another concern. You can take the 2 years of time, and probably less than 1/2 the amount you would spend on B school to startup your startup, which, would be a better learning opportunity.
A flip side of the same question: a doctoral friend of mine recommended that if one were to really get something out of grad school heavy-lifting and still learn critical thinking business skills, go for a PhD in any management science or economics; reason being a) Get paid to learn b) some programs award an MBA anyway c) learn a lot more behind the scenes than any MBA program. But, I have seen this to be very rarely useful hackers turned, for example, marketing gurus. Any thoughts on this?
Whatever the skills it gives you, the PhD in Business is designed for those who want to teach at a university level.
They're highly competitive (I think 2-5% accpetance rates are the norm) and it would be tough to outperform the other students in the admissions process unless you can demonstrate the same or better "fit"; that is, Odds are even more stacked against you if you intend to use your education to practice, not to teach.
They're highly competitive (I think 2-5% accpetance rates are the norm) and it would be tough to outperform the other students in the admissions process unless you can demonstrate the same or better "fit"; that is, Odds are even more stacked against you if you intend to use your education to practice, not to teach.
Totally not worth the time (unless you're going to switch careers or something like that). As so many people noted yesterday, you can get all of the useful information from books and blogs and self-help groups. Also, anything that it's not worth your time to learn on your own, you'll probably hire/outsource anyways (e.g., payroll, legal, hr, etc.).
I'm not sure if I qualify as a "hacker", but I am a development manager for a small software company and hold an MBA from SCU. All of my prior experience had been in product development, so the MBA was useful primarily for gaining a broader perspective on other areas such as marketing, finance, and operations. It would have taken me much longer to learn the same things through work experience and self study.
If you do decide to pursue an MBA let me put a plug in for my alma mater. It's a good choice since you can work full time in Silicon Valley and then go to school nights and weekends. http://www.scu.edu/business/graduates/admissions/evening-mba...
If you do decide to pursue an MBA let me put a plug in for my alma mater. It's a good choice since you can work full time in Silicon Valley and then go to school nights and weekends. http://www.scu.edu/business/graduates/admissions/evening-mba...
It goes back to the specialist vs. generalist question. An MBA experience will help you become more of a generalist, you will interact with people who are different from you and solve problems differently. It will also open up career options you may not have today, hedge funds, investment banks, consulting - some of which are intellectually interesting and pay well. Even if you decide to do a startup later, you will have friends working at VCs & operating companies that you can get help from.
If on the other hand you have decided that you want to live the rest of your life as a hacker, maybe it is not such a good idea. In any case, don't consider schools beyond the top 5 (Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, Chicago and maybe MIT).
If on the other hand you have decided that you want to live the rest of your life as a hacker, maybe it is not such a good idea. In any case, don't consider schools beyond the top 5 (Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, Chicago and maybe MIT).
The thing is you don't need an MBA to be more of a generalist. You can read all the class material at a fraction of the price. Not to mention in SV you have a lot of other venues for networking.
I talked to a graduate of Stanford's program about his opinion on it. He told me the biggest value the program gives you are new contacts (He didn't really think the class content was anything special), but since he didn't want to go to Wall St/ or to Big Corporation X (where the cred helps at times) he felt that he should have just skipped it and instead just dived into a startup (using his MBA school money for the venture instead).
Good MBA programs typically cost from $30000-$50000 per year and it doesn't even include opportunity costs.
I talked to a graduate of Stanford's program about his opinion on it. He told me the biggest value the program gives you are new contacts (He didn't really think the class content was anything special), but since he didn't want to go to Wall St/ or to Big Corporation X (where the cred helps at times) he felt that he should have just skipped it and instead just dived into a startup (using his MBA school money for the venture instead).
Good MBA programs typically cost from $30000-$50000 per year and it doesn't even include opportunity costs.
MBA's are great for 2 things:
1) If you are not a business undergrad, or have not picked up these skills on the job, then an MBA is a great way to get a solid business understanding that will prepare you for another type of work.
2) High ranking MBA programs attract serious talent, and then network that you acquire at a respectable university is also very valuable.
So really, if you want to change jobs, and want some credentials and training and/or want to fill up your linkedin profile with some future superstars, it's a worthy investment. Otherwise, it's probably not worth the time or money.
1) If you are not a business undergrad, or have not picked up these skills on the job, then an MBA is a great way to get a solid business understanding that will prepare you for another type of work.
2) High ranking MBA programs attract serious talent, and then network that you acquire at a respectable university is also very valuable.
So really, if you want to change jobs, and want some credentials and training and/or want to fill up your linkedin profile with some future superstars, it's a worthy investment. Otherwise, it's probably not worth the time or money.
"MBA is a great way to get a solid business understanding"
Having an MBA, many years business experience, and heavy hacking experience, I would have to strongly disagree with this statement.
If you want the initials after your name, fine. But please don't be deluded into thinking there is any real correlation with a business school education (at any level) and "solid business understanding".
I always hated the expression, "Those you can, do. Those who can't, teach." But I think business school may be my one exception. Make no mistake about it, these are two different worlds: those with business battle scars and those who like to talk about the theoretical. Even when I go back to my alma mater and watch an alumni's business presentation, I actually cringe when one of the professors gives his take.
I would never discourage anyone from getting more education; this is one case where getting that education from actual meaningful work experience blows away college.
Having an MBA, many years business experience, and heavy hacking experience, I would have to strongly disagree with this statement.
If you want the initials after your name, fine. But please don't be deluded into thinking there is any real correlation with a business school education (at any level) and "solid business understanding".
I always hated the expression, "Those you can, do. Those who can't, teach." But I think business school may be my one exception. Make no mistake about it, these are two different worlds: those with business battle scars and those who like to talk about the theoretical. Even when I go back to my alma mater and watch an alumni's business presentation, I actually cringe when one of the professors gives his take.
I would never discourage anyone from getting more education; this is one case where getting that education from actual meaningful work experience blows away college.
I've heard you either startup or go to business school. Either way, both are similar. Personally i'd choose starting_up.
I honestly can't think of any good reason today why someone who could hack would want an MBA.
If you're concerned about learning, you will learn more about business in one good hands on project than 2 years of formal education.
If you're concerned about having a mentor, you will meet infinitely more business saavy people in business than you ever will in school.
If you're concerned about money, 2 years of earning will put you hundreds of thousands of dollars ahead of 2 years of spending.
If you're concerned about what others think of your credentials, you're focusing on the wrong thing.
If you're concerned about climbing the corporate ladder more quickly, then fine. Get an MBA. What are you doing here?
And, most of all...
If you're concerned about making yourself the best you could be, then hack, hack, hack. You already excel at the weakest link in the business chain. You will get better by continuing to "do" in your specialty. More school will add little, cost you time, cost you money, but most of all, cost you experience doing what you already love and what the world needs most right now.
(Response to Bonus Question: One of the best post-graduate business programs for technical people is Carnegie Mellon. Ironically, they don't award an "MBA", but an "MSIA", Master of Science in Industrial Administration. Even they don't care for the MBA.)
If you're concerned about learning, you will learn more about business in one good hands on project than 2 years of formal education.
If you're concerned about having a mentor, you will meet infinitely more business saavy people in business than you ever will in school.
If you're concerned about money, 2 years of earning will put you hundreds of thousands of dollars ahead of 2 years of spending.
If you're concerned about what others think of your credentials, you're focusing on the wrong thing.
If you're concerned about climbing the corporate ladder more quickly, then fine. Get an MBA. What are you doing here?
And, most of all...
If you're concerned about making yourself the best you could be, then hack, hack, hack. You already excel at the weakest link in the business chain. You will get better by continuing to "do" in your specialty. More school will add little, cost you time, cost you money, but most of all, cost you experience doing what you already love and what the world needs most right now.
(Response to Bonus Question: One of the best post-graduate business programs for technical people is Carnegie Mellon. Ironically, they don't award an "MBA", but an "MSIA", Master of Science in Industrial Administration. Even they don't care for the MBA.)
This is quite inaccurate. There exist jobs for which the above are true, but not most.
If you're concerned about learning... Sure, but it'll be completely different stuff.
If you're concerned about having a mentor... Or not. Real leaders in the corporate world are rare.
If you're concerned about money... Not really. If you've worked and then go back and got an MBA you come back at mid-management.
I'm hardly a cheerleader for MBAs, but the stuff that you've written here is a little too typical, "hacker with a chip on his shoulder". I've seen a lot of people learn good stuff in MBA programs and I've seen more waste their time. It's not one size fits all.
If you're concerned about learning... Sure, but it'll be completely different stuff.
If you're concerned about having a mentor... Or not. Real leaders in the corporate world are rare.
If you're concerned about money... Not really. If you've worked and then go back and got an MBA you come back at mid-management.
I'm hardly a cheerleader for MBAs, but the stuff that you've written here is a little too typical, "hacker with a chip on his shoulder". I've seen a lot of people learn good stuff in MBA programs and I've seen more waste their time. It's not one size fits all.
"This is quite inaccurate."
Maybe for someone, but not for me.
"it'll be completely different stuff"
Exactly. That's my whole point. Some things I learned in my MBA program, like the time value of money, were at best, easily gleaned from dozens of books at Borders. Other things, like marketing strategies and case studies, were just wrong and counterproductive. Nothing valuable I ever learned on the job was even on the business school's radar.
"Real leaders in the corporate world are rare."
True. And much rarer in academia.
"If you've worked and then go back and got an MBA you come back at mid-management."
So what? Been there, done that. As an experienced hacker, I don't remember the last time I had a mid-manager who earned more than I do. They are easily expendible. I am on the critical path.
"hacker with a chip on his shoulder"
No, just one who loves what he does and has seen the light. If you can hack, don't make the same mistake I did. Forget the MBA and get better at hacking by hacking.
Maybe for someone, but not for me.
"it'll be completely different stuff"
Exactly. That's my whole point. Some things I learned in my MBA program, like the time value of money, were at best, easily gleaned from dozens of books at Borders. Other things, like marketing strategies and case studies, were just wrong and counterproductive. Nothing valuable I ever learned on the job was even on the business school's radar.
"Real leaders in the corporate world are rare."
True. And much rarer in academia.
"If you've worked and then go back and got an MBA you come back at mid-management."
So what? Been there, done that. As an experienced hacker, I don't remember the last time I had a mid-manager who earned more than I do. They are easily expendible. I am on the critical path.
"hacker with a chip on his shoulder"
No, just one who loves what he does and has seen the light. If you can hack, don't make the same mistake I did. Forget the MBA and get better at hacking by hacking.
>>> If you're concerned about learning, you will learn more about business in one good hands on project than 2 years of formal education.
That statement pretty much discredits everything you say. Have you run through an entire MBA program? This statement is unbelievably ignorant.
As for CMU, they certainly do have an "MBA" program. Also, CMU is a 2nd tier B-School. It's still very good but not at the top of U.S. MBA programs.
That statement pretty much discredits everything you say. Have you run through an entire MBA program? This statement is unbelievably ignorant.
As for CMU, they certainly do have an "MBA" program. Also, CMU is a 2nd tier B-School. It's still very good but not at the top of U.S. MBA programs.
"pretty much discredits everything you say"
How? Please provide some data to support this statement. Then I'll understand and perhaps, be better able to respond.
I have my MBA, 86 hands-on IT projects, several management jobs, non-IT P & L responsibility, and have hacked tens of thousands of original programs, all in a business environment.
I freely share my experience and assessment so that someone else might be able to take advantage of my mistakes. Don't like it? Fine.
But when you say something like "This statement is unbelievably ignorant" with no supporting data, you add no value and make yourself look like the fool. If you disagree, say why. If you don't...</FlameResponse>.
How? Please provide some data to support this statement. Then I'll understand and perhaps, be better able to respond.
I have my MBA, 86 hands-on IT projects, several management jobs, non-IT P & L responsibility, and have hacked tens of thousands of original programs, all in a business environment.
I freely share my experience and assessment so that someone else might be able to take advantage of my mistakes. Don't like it? Fine.
But when you say something like "This statement is unbelievably ignorant" with no supporting data, you add no value and make yourself look like the fool. If you disagree, say why. If you don't...</FlameResponse>.
So take one random sample from one of your 86 "hands-on IT projects", and you're trying to tell me that you learned all the things that you would need to learn in a full-time 2 year MBA program? I just don't see how that is remotely possible.
If you're just talking about random learning, then your statement doesn't really reply. I could spend two years reading Wikipedia and learn a lot more than I could in two years of full-time MBA study -- the problem is the quality not the quantity.
Besides, a lot of the value of the MBA doesn't come directly from the curriculum but rather having in-depth case analysis with your professor and the other students.
I find it pretty interesting that a lot of the values of the MBA and the decisions for firms to hire MBAs parallel a lot with how YC operates, yet YC is viewed as the holy entity and MBAs are viewed as hell spawns. The bulk of the value of YC doesn't come from the investment, it comes from the community, much like an MBA. The curriculum doesn't vary that much between a top school like Wharton or Chicago and your standard state school. The difference is the quality of the other students. And much like YC, firms hire MBAs on their abilities to learn and not what they've already learned. Don't get me wrong, the curriculum is very important and gives a very good general overview of every major operation in a corporation (operations, accounting, finance, marketing, IS, etc), but honestly, you COULD learn it all on your own. But that applies to just about anything. I could learn all the curriculum I would need for a CS PhD on my own if I wanted to as well...
If you're just talking about random learning, then your statement doesn't really reply. I could spend two years reading Wikipedia and learn a lot more than I could in two years of full-time MBA study -- the problem is the quality not the quantity.
Besides, a lot of the value of the MBA doesn't come directly from the curriculum but rather having in-depth case analysis with your professor and the other students.
I find it pretty interesting that a lot of the values of the MBA and the decisions for firms to hire MBAs parallel a lot with how YC operates, yet YC is viewed as the holy entity and MBAs are viewed as hell spawns. The bulk of the value of YC doesn't come from the investment, it comes from the community, much like an MBA. The curriculum doesn't vary that much between a top school like Wharton or Chicago and your standard state school. The difference is the quality of the other students. And much like YC, firms hire MBAs on their abilities to learn and not what they've already learned. Don't get me wrong, the curriculum is very important and gives a very good general overview of every major operation in a corporation (operations, accounting, finance, marketing, IS, etc), but honestly, you COULD learn it all on your own. But that applies to just about anything. I could learn all the curriculum I would need for a CS PhD on my own if I wanted to as well...
"all the things that you would need to learn in a full-time 2 year MBA program"
I can't think of a single thing that would be on that list. Business School is not like Law School or Medical School where you must remember the "things" you learned. Employers use the MBA to differentiate candidates. It's unlikely that you'll use all that much from the curriculum on your first job. You even say so yourself, "firms hire MBAs on their abilities to learn and not what they've already learned".
"I just don't see how that is remotely possible."
How could you if you've never done it? Every large project I've ever worked on had issues with interpersonal communication, project management, logistics, deployment, revenue generation, and profitability (you know, all the important stuff), in a manner that business school can't even imagine covering.
"the problem is the quality not the quantity"
Exactly. That's my whole point. The quality of a hands on business education blows away anything academic. I imagine most business people (with MBAs or not) would heartily concur. The only thing I remember from business school was, "A degree in business is a degree in nothing."
"in-depth case analysis"
Case studies are notoriously poor for learning about business. What good is it to study business decisions after the fact, when you already know what they didn't? Marc Andressson said as much in his talk at Startup School here:
http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/98124/Marc_Andreessen_Founder_...
or here:
http://omnisio.com/startupschool08/marc-andreessen-at-startu...
If you don't want to listen to me, perhaps he's a little more convincing. (Whether you agree with me about anything or not, I strongly suggest this video. A lot to learn from someone with real battle scars.)
"with your professor and the other students"
who pale in comparison to people your encounter every day on the job. Why do you think the most important class in any business school is the internship?
I can't think of a single thing that would be on that list. Business School is not like Law School or Medical School where you must remember the "things" you learned. Employers use the MBA to differentiate candidates. It's unlikely that you'll use all that much from the curriculum on your first job. You even say so yourself, "firms hire MBAs on their abilities to learn and not what they've already learned".
"I just don't see how that is remotely possible."
How could you if you've never done it? Every large project I've ever worked on had issues with interpersonal communication, project management, logistics, deployment, revenue generation, and profitability (you know, all the important stuff), in a manner that business school can't even imagine covering.
"the problem is the quality not the quantity"
Exactly. That's my whole point. The quality of a hands on business education blows away anything academic. I imagine most business people (with MBAs or not) would heartily concur. The only thing I remember from business school was, "A degree in business is a degree in nothing."
"in-depth case analysis"
Case studies are notoriously poor for learning about business. What good is it to study business decisions after the fact, when you already know what they didn't? Marc Andressson said as much in his talk at Startup School here:
http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/98124/Marc_Andreessen_Founder_...
or here:
http://omnisio.com/startupschool08/marc-andreessen-at-startu...
If you don't want to listen to me, perhaps he's a little more convincing. (Whether you agree with me about anything or not, I strongly suggest this video. A lot to learn from someone with real battle scars.)
"with your professor and the other students"
who pale in comparison to people your encounter every day on the job. Why do you think the most important class in any business school is the internship?
You makes some decent points but you continue to say things that are a bit ridiculous such as:
"who pale in comparison to people your encounter every day on the job. Why do you think the most important class in any business school is the internship?".
Where do you work that you get to spend each day with the best and brightest business leaders in the world? There are reasons why top management consulting firms aggressively recruit MBAs from top-tier business schools and a lot of it has to do with the people that they were surrounded with in their education.
I'm not going to discount your opinions or Marc Andreesen's opinions but they are just two opinions. I'm sure I could go talk to any partner at Accenture and get a vastly different opinion. I don't really think that the MBA makes that much sense for someone interested in starting their own web company but for many career paths it does.
"who pale in comparison to people your encounter every day on the job. Why do you think the most important class in any business school is the internship?".
Where do you work that you get to spend each day with the best and brightest business leaders in the world? There are reasons why top management consulting firms aggressively recruit MBAs from top-tier business schools and a lot of it has to do with the people that they were surrounded with in their education.
I'm not going to discount your opinions or Marc Andreesen's opinions but they are just two opinions. I'm sure I could go talk to any partner at Accenture and get a vastly different opinion. I don't really think that the MBA makes that much sense for someone interested in starting their own web company but for many career paths it does.
"Where do you work that you get to spend each day with the best and brightest business leaders in the world?"
I don't. I just believe that we all have a lot to learn from all the ordinary people running the world, a little bit at a time. I imagine the best and brightest business leaders in the world would agree with me.
"I'm sure I could go talk to any partner at Accenture and get a vastly different opinion"
Yes you will! But don't forget to talk to a few of the many business people who despise firms like Accenture. I know they're out there because they're the ones who call people like me (and many others here) to clean up the messes MBAs leave behind.
"I don't really think that the MBA makes that much sense for someone interested in starting their own web company but for many career paths it does."
Yes, I agree.
I don't. I just believe that we all have a lot to learn from all the ordinary people running the world, a little bit at a time. I imagine the best and brightest business leaders in the world would agree with me.
"I'm sure I could go talk to any partner at Accenture and get a vastly different opinion"
Yes you will! But don't forget to talk to a few of the many business people who despise firms like Accenture. I know they're out there because they're the ones who call people like me (and many others here) to clean up the messes MBAs leave behind.
"I don't really think that the MBA makes that much sense for someone interested in starting their own web company but for many career paths it does."
Yes, I agree.
You might enjoy it ...
I got my MBA from this programme www.mbaip.com
The thing is it was fun, we had amazing instructors professors, like Pierre-Louis Dubois and Michel Kalika
The thing is it was fun, we had amazing instructors professors, like Pierre-Louis Dubois and Michel Kalika
you should never dismiss somebody based on a single fact such as they have an MBA. doing so only restricts your options which isn't something a founder can really afford to do.
(How I jumped to the conclusion: read a gazillion different materials from Andreessen to Bezos to bozos, became a research assistant at a top business school to see what the heck professors really think about the curriculum, and of course, talked to a few dozen MBAs across the world in different fields)