The American System of Tipping Makes No Sense(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
The American System of Tipping Makes No Sense
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/american-tipping-system-makes-no-sense/600865/
113 comments
Or, simply stop tipping altogether, cold turkey. Let's do that all at once. Tipped professions will turn on a dime and start expecting a living wage, and everything will be fine, just like everywhere else in the world.
When things don't make sense you DON'T need to participate in them.
When things don't make sense you DON'T need to participate in them.
Tipping is important to many people who already make a solid living wage, it is what puts them in the middle class. I know people that earn $60-70k, some significant fraction of which is tips. It isn't just important to low-wage workers.
An under-appreciated aspect of tipping is that it is a form of wage elasticity in industries with small margins and highly variable revenue. Hedging revenue risk is going to come out of employee paychecks, and tipping allows the employee to take on some of that risk for higher average take-home pay. Eliminating tipping has been tried in bars and restaurants many times in the US with poor results, such that they revert; employees hate it because they would rather have the income variability and higher average income, and it also impacts the quality of their hours.
There are some complex economics going on with tipping that it would be foolish to ignore.
An under-appreciated aspect of tipping is that it is a form of wage elasticity in industries with small margins and highly variable revenue. Hedging revenue risk is going to come out of employee paychecks, and tipping allows the employee to take on some of that risk for higher average take-home pay. Eliminating tipping has been tried in bars and restaurants many times in the US with poor results, such that they revert; employees hate it because they would rather have the income variability and higher average income, and it also impacts the quality of their hours.
There are some complex economics going on with tipping that it would be foolish to ignore.
What’s so special about US. Rest of the world is doing just fine right ?
Why does someone need to survive on tips? Why can’t it be part of their base pay?
What I hate about US tipping is that tips are a 15% hidden tax. It’s expected out of you even though the service is terrible. People get legit mad if they don’t get their minimum 15% tip.
Why does someone need to survive on tips? Why can’t it be part of their base pay?
What I hate about US tipping is that tips are a 15% hidden tax. It’s expected out of you even though the service is terrible. People get legit mad if they don’t get their minimum 15% tip.
The economic structure of tipping is not equivalent to adding 15% to prices and adding 15% to wages with no tipping. It produces different outcomes for employees and they demonstrably prefer their outcomes under the tipping model in the US. Industries with tipping select for employees with these preferences.
Adding tips to base pay necessarily lowers aggregate income for employees in return for less income variability -- it is a tradeoff. Many people who receive tips are not "surviving" on them, their base pay is more in line with median western European incomes, so many American employees can afford income variability in exchange for higher average earnings, and people that cannot afford income variability select industries without it. In practice, this is their preference and it has been tested in the market many times. Every time tipping has been eliminated in the US in a business neutral way, the employees revolt because it reduces their effective total compensation.
Employees have all the power. Tipping being preferred in the US is almost certainly an artifact of the US having higher incomes than most other countries, a much larger percentage of the working class can afford income variability which creates an employment market for people with this preference. The median American has $1000/month left over after all ordinary expenses, which is more than enough to float some income variability if it means they can earn more.
Adding tips to base pay necessarily lowers aggregate income for employees in return for less income variability -- it is a tradeoff. Many people who receive tips are not "surviving" on them, their base pay is more in line with median western European incomes, so many American employees can afford income variability in exchange for higher average earnings, and people that cannot afford income variability select industries without it. In practice, this is their preference and it has been tested in the market many times. Every time tipping has been eliminated in the US in a business neutral way, the employees revolt because it reduces their effective total compensation.
Employees have all the power. Tipping being preferred in the US is almost certainly an artifact of the US having higher incomes than most other countries, a much larger percentage of the working class can afford income variability which creates an employment market for people with this preference. The median American has $1000/month left over after all ordinary expenses, which is more than enough to float some income variability if it means they can earn more.
A lot of good points.
I only hope that states can agree on legislature that _ensures_ that they can at least make a livable wage from it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage
This is just anecdotal, but I know of a restaurant that pays their workers the $2.13/hr minimum for Tennessee, and they assuredly do not reach TN's $7.25/hr minimum wage with tips.
This place can only get away with it because there's a steady supply of college students throughout the year who are desperate for any job that comes their way; the high turnover rate doesn't hurt them in the least.
I only hope that states can agree on legislature that _ensures_ that they can at least make a livable wage from it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage
This is just anecdotal, but I know of a restaurant that pays their workers the $2.13/hr minimum for Tennessee, and they assuredly do not reach TN's $7.25/hr minimum wage with tips.
This place can only get away with it because there's a steady supply of college students throughout the year who are desperate for any job that comes their way; the high turnover rate doesn't hurt them in the least.
You make good points. I wish your posts had a bit more visibility to the folks who hate tipping.
Tipping not only produces different outcomes for employees but it also impacts employers and customers. Even if you raise prices 15% it still won't be enough for most restaurants to keep their entire floor staff. Restaurants will be forced to cut hours and/or staff - this will lead to worse service and more unhappy customers.
And this has been my experience when visiting countries that don't have tipping (primarily the UK). Most of the restaurants are understaffed - there would be a single server covering 10+ tables. And because of that the service was really slow. And slow service is not only frustrating for customers but it is also bad for restaurants (fewer customers = less items sold).
I always get the feeling that the people who hate tipping the most have never actually worked in an actual restaurant.
Tipping not only produces different outcomes for employees but it also impacts employers and customers. Even if you raise prices 15% it still won't be enough for most restaurants to keep their entire floor staff. Restaurants will be forced to cut hours and/or staff - this will lead to worse service and more unhappy customers.
And this has been my experience when visiting countries that don't have tipping (primarily the UK). Most of the restaurants are understaffed - there would be a single server covering 10+ tables. And because of that the service was really slow. And slow service is not only frustrating for customers but it is also bad for restaurants (fewer customers = less items sold).
I always get the feeling that the people who hate tipping the most have never actually worked in an actual restaurant.
That's complete nonsense. It makes no mathematical sense and if your business relies on the public's largesse to pay your own employees then your business is not sustainable.
The intellectual backflips people perform to justify this abhorrent, classist performative display of daily piety are a sight to behold.
The intellectual backflips people perform to justify this abhorrent, classist performative display of daily piety are a sight to behold.
I forgot to add: wages are tax deductible for the employer.
Absolutely! The only way this will ever change is if the customers decide to just not tip. Yes, in a few restaurants, especially in a big city servers get paid better in tips. But I bet that is not true for the vast majority.
If your only solution involves "let's do that all at once", then it's not a serious proposal.
I am pro tipping (living in the UK). But it doesn't make sense to subsidize/outsource the staff's salary to the customer (via tipping). I respect the people to make and serve my coffee just as a respect the person who drives me to work (bus, underground). I prefer that these people receive a decent salary from their employer so they can also have proportionally large-r pension contributions. Nobody mentions that.
> Yes, tipping in the US is insane, and it's getting more insane with iPad tipping.
Is iPad ordering becoming something common in the US?
A few months ago, I had a layover in Newark (or maybe it was JFK). I was surprised that all restaurants in the terminal used iPad for ordering, there were literally iPad everywhere. The staff didn't even bother to inform me that ordering via the iPad was the only option. Eventually, I ordered but felt entitled not to tip.
Is iPad ordering becoming something common in the US?
A few months ago, I had a layover in Newark (or maybe it was JFK). I was surprised that all restaurants in the terminal used iPad for ordering, there were literally iPad everywhere. The staff didn't even bother to inform me that ordering via the iPad was the only option. Eventually, I ordered but felt entitled not to tip.
Not mainly talking about restaurants, but mainly cafés and places with counter service.
[deleted]
Even if the service isn’t great, b/c tipping is baked into their total compensation, is argue that you should always tip. Only changes the amounts that you tip by.
The thing that's crazy is you hear a lot of people talking about "what's the incentive to provide good services if employees aren't motivated by tips" -- which is it?
Either we've accepted it's a "fuel surcharge" for an airline ticket (as if the fuel isn't part of the price and I'm free to grab my own dishes from the kitchen) -- or it's meant to incentivize behavior. If we pick both, we're not really achieving either.
Either we've accepted it's a "fuel surcharge" for an airline ticket (as if the fuel isn't part of the price and I'm free to grab my own dishes from the kitchen) -- or it's meant to incentivize behavior. If we pick both, we're not really achieving either.
I wrote a very incoherent sentence there. What restaurants have done is offload the risk of customers coming in to the establishment on to the employee by not paying them a full wage. This is fine in high throughput places, maybe, but many other places it means service workers are making below minimum wage.
So yes, always tip, and tip more if you liked the service.
So yes, always tip, and tip more if you liked the service.
Tipping needs to go. It's discriminatory and a PITA. But I think the only way we'll get rid of it is if it's made illegal.
Change the laws that allow businesses to count tips as part of minimum wage and I bet you'd seem them change their tune on the subject right quick.
That's impossible. People's freedom to give other people money on their own volition as a personal gift will not be infringed. We can argue about whether tipping is good or not, but you will not (realistically, it's a non-starter) ban my ability to give it.
Tried tipping a police officer lately? How about a border guard haha.
You absolutely can restrict it. An employer can forbid their employees from taking tips, there are plenty who do so already. There's all sorts of regulation around tipping, and under federal law, employers can require employees to participate in a tip pool or otherwise share their tips with other employees.
That means by extension that the state or federal governments can require employers forbid employees from taking tips. You're free to give anyone you want money in a personal capacity but in a professional capacity their ability to receive it can absolutely be curtailed by the government. There's lots of prior art here, especially around business conflict of interest. You can't tip a government employee for their service.
As a thought exercise, if you go to a restaurant today where tipping isn't permitted, you offer $10 to the server. They refuse, because their employer doesn't permit them to accept tips. What do you do? Force them to take it?
You absolutely can restrict it. An employer can forbid their employees from taking tips, there are plenty who do so already. There's all sorts of regulation around tipping, and under federal law, employers can require employees to participate in a tip pool or otherwise share their tips with other employees.
That means by extension that the state or federal governments can require employers forbid employees from taking tips. You're free to give anyone you want money in a personal capacity but in a professional capacity their ability to receive it can absolutely be curtailed by the government. There's lots of prior art here, especially around business conflict of interest. You can't tip a government employee for their service.
As a thought exercise, if you go to a restaurant today where tipping isn't permitted, you offer $10 to the server. They refuse, because their employer doesn't permit them to accept tips. What do you do? Force them to take it?
This is a false analogy.
You can choose to go to a different restaurant, you can't choose to deal with another government. Hence the rules should be different.
The rules and regulations of a governmental agency do not need to have any bearing on the rules and regulations of a private business.
You can choose to go to a different restaurant, you can't choose to deal with another government. Hence the rules should be different.
The rules and regulations of a governmental agency do not need to have any bearing on the rules and regulations of a private business.
Conflict of interest rules apply the same way to governments (foreign and domestic) as they do to any other company you're considering doing business with. You can't give their representatives gifts either over a handful of dollars, if you've ever watched a compliance training video at work. I'm not using this as an analogy, just as prior art in the restriction of your ability to give arbitrary 'gifts' or 'expressions of gratitude for someone having done their job'. I mean, why can't I tip a police officer who came out really quickly to look into my home invasion? It's my money and I'm not paying them to do anything they shouldn't. I'm just grateful they did their job.
The point remains, you can give anyone gifts in a personal capacity, and there are restrictions in a professional capacity.
The point remains, you can give anyone gifts in a personal capacity, and there are restrictions in a professional capacity.
If you prohibit a tip line on checks and a tip entry on customer operated card machines, it becomes difficult to tip if you don't carry cash. If it's difficult to tip, I can't be expected to tip, and the prices need to be set appropriately, and I don't care if a few people tip.
It's very possible.
If I gave my customers a gift it would be an illegal bribe and I could go to jail. My customers are government.
When I was a teenager I worked at a hospital. One of my coworkers was fired for accepting a $1 tip from a patient, we were not allowed to accept any money or gifts from patients or families.
If I gave my customers a gift it would be an illegal bribe and I could go to jail. My customers are government.
When I was a teenager I worked at a hospital. One of my coworkers was fired for accepting a $1 tip from a patient, we were not allowed to accept any money or gifts from patients or families.
“If I gave my customers a gift it would be an illegal bribe and I could go to jail. My customers are government.”
That’s a flawed analogy. The server is not a customer.
That’s a flawed analogy. The server is not a customer.
The employee of a bank that approves your loan is not your customer, you are his/hers. Go get a credit card or a loan and try tipping the bank's employee. That's a certain way to get them fired.
[deleted]
I was replying specifically to
"People's freedom to give other people money on their own volition as a personal gift will not be infringed"
There's many situations in life where personal gifts are inappropriate, unwelcome, or illegal. I just gave an example.
You could also make the same argument to defend the "casting couch," yet we seem to have moved past that being defendable.
"People's freedom to give other people money on their own volition as a personal gift will not be infringed"
There's many situations in life where personal gifts are inappropriate, unwelcome, or illegal. I just gave an example.
You could also make the same argument to defend the "casting couch," yet we seem to have moved past that being defendable.
I totally agree with you. I was referring to the analogy. The context of your analogy wasn’t clear.
Tipping is banned legally and culturally more than it's allowed.
It should be illegal to voluntarily give your own money to a server as a reward for good service?
Yeah, if it improves welfare of the wait staff, forcing the employer to pay a living wage. The practice is discriminatory, there's lots of data that shows that the distribution of the tips is highly un-equal. The state already permits things like pooling, so it has the right to restrict tipping entirely. Further, tipped employees are allowed to be paid an absolute pittance well below minimum wage, which doubles down on the impacts of the discriminatory distribution.
Could or should are different questions, but you're intentionally reducing the conversation to something much simpler than it really is.
Could or should are different questions, but you're intentionally reducing the conversation to something much simpler than it really is.
voldacar(3)
This also made no sense to me when I visited the US. If you don't tip, people are going to be seriously mad at you. Living in Europe, you never tip. You just pay for your meal, and you call it a day.
Over here in the UK people certainly tip. Servers in restaurants are paid minimal wage or above, but it's still the expected practice to give a tip if the service is good (or in some restaurants, when the tip/service charge is added to the bill).
We also often give tips to delivery drivers for takeaways and pizza places, as well as barbers/hairdressers.
We also often give tips to delivery drivers for takeaways and pizza places, as well as barbers/hairdressers.
Where in Europe are you talking about? Here in Germany, and everywhere I've traveled so far, tipping is expected. You just tip less than in the US. I guess you could not tip, but your server will be miffed and assume something was wrong with the food or service.
I've been to Germany on several occasions, and I've never tipped, and have never seen any of my German and/or European friends tip. Sometimes, you just round up to the nearest whole number, but that is it.
Also, in countries that do a better job with pin+chip, you never have to even round up. You only do this in Germany, because you mostly pay for things in cash over there.
Also, in countries that do a better job with pin+chip, you never have to even round up. You only do this in Germany, because you mostly pay for things in cash over there.
When I pay by card in a restaurant in Germany I always leave one or two Euros in coins on the table. You can also ask your server to include it in the bill and put it on the card. It would seem quite rude to me not to leave an tip at all.
Are you American?
If you are, you may not realise that the people serving you realise Americans are used to tipping and so act as if they expect it too. And yes, they'll like it if you do tip.
No where I've been in Europe or the UK is tipping expected.
If you are, you may not realise that the people serving you realise Americans are used to tipping and so act as if they expect it too. And yes, they'll like it if you do tip.
No where I've been in Europe or the UK is tipping expected.
(The UK is in Europe.)
10% is expected in the UK, but it is often listed on the bill as "service charge" - then you can leave nothing.
Rounding up the bill to the next nice number is expected in Germany.
And I've been to 26 countries in Europe, so I know better than to generalise across the whole continent.
10% is expected in the UK, but it is often listed on the bill as "service charge" - then you can leave nothing.
Rounding up the bill to the next nice number is expected in Germany.
And I've been to 26 countries in Europe, so I know better than to generalise across the whole continent.
In continental Europe there is no tipping. Yes, if you leave a tip they sure won't mind (and they maybe kind of expect it from tourists in tourist traps), but there is no obligation.
"no obligation" is not the same as "no tipping", and certainly not "you never tip", as GP claimed.
FWIW I certainly feel the obligation to leave a small tip (few euros) when eating out, but that may just be my upbringing.
FWIW I certainly feel the obligation to leave a small tip (few euros) when eating out, but that may just be my upbringing.
In France basically there is no tipping. I tipped because I'm American and force of habit, but it certainly wasn't expected. I don't ever recall seeing a tip line when paying by credit card.
Like the comment above pointed out, no obligation to tip doesn't mean it's not poor form not to.
I'm German and I always tip unless the service was really bad. I'm not the only one. [0] Quick Googling confirms this is true in France as well (96% of customers usually tip according to that link) [1].
[0] https://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article177457710/...
[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr...
I'm German and I always tip unless the service was really bad. I'm not the only one. [0] Quick Googling confirms this is true in France as well (96% of customers usually tip according to that link) [1].
[0] https://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article177457710/...
[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr...
> 96% of customers usually tip according to that link
Interesting, I almost never tip in France. There's no tip line when you pay by card. You may tip if you want (people may leave a few euros...), but it's certainly not frowned upon not to tip. It probably depends on the context too.
EDIT: your reference [1] says that 96% of French people tip, but only 3% on average (it used to be more but has been declining recently).
Interesting, I almost never tip in France. There's no tip line when you pay by card. You may tip if you want (people may leave a few euros...), but it's certainly not frowned upon not to tip. It probably depends on the context too.
EDIT: your reference [1] says that 96% of French people tip, but only 3% on average (it used to be more but has been declining recently).
[deleted]
> This also made no sense to me when I visited the US.
This is not because we don't tip in (parts of) Europe that "it made no sense". These are just minor cultural differences.
> You just pay for your meal, and you call it a day.
In the US, you pay for your meal + tax + 15% tip and call it a day. It's really not that different once you realize that the price you're going to pay isn't the one that is advertised on the menu.
This is not because we don't tip in (parts of) Europe that "it made no sense". These are just minor cultural differences.
> You just pay for your meal, and you call it a day.
In the US, you pay for your meal + tax + 15% tip and call it a day. It's really not that different once you realize that the price you're going to pay isn't the one that is advertised on the menu.
>In the US, you pay for your meal + tax + 15% tip and call it a day.
Yeah, I think this is what Europeans have such a hard time with - why should you pay more than what the sticker says.
In US we accept that more readily, because the combined price: sticker + tax + tip is still smaller than what an official sticker price would be in say Europe, and you get more for the same price, you get the chance to reward someone.
Yeah, I think this is what Europeans have such a hard time with - why should you pay more than what the sticker says.
In US we accept that more readily, because the combined price: sticker + tax + tip is still smaller than what an official sticker price would be in say Europe, and you get more for the same price, you get the chance to reward someone.
Tipping is something completely different. I have come to believe that in America tipping is to recognize acceptable service. It is a feedback mechanism to weed out, to mark and penalize undesirable behaviors. The best people to make that determination are the customers themselves.
The only time you should not tip is when the service is bad.
Do understand that if we did not tip the prices would simply rise, we would still pay the same as with tipping, but it would take away a mechanism by which you can make ourselves heard.
The only time you should not tip is when the service is bad.
Do understand that if we did not tip the prices would simply rise, we would still pay the same as with tipping, but it would take away a mechanism by which you can make ourselves heard.
Imagine if every coder was paid below minimum wage and depended on tips in every paycheck... it assumes a default that the employee needs a daily threat of punishment from moody strangers to do acceptable work. Not a fun environment.
it is not a good analogy, you can't immediately tell that a piece of code is good or bad. If you could tell that in 10 minutes, if you could separate a good coder from bad just like that, tipping would improve coding as well.
Tipping is not about moody strangers, the vast majority of people eating at restaurants are normal people with normal, predictable and reasonably benevolent behaviors. People will tip if the service is at least average. Won't tip when the service or food is bad. What better way is there to tell how your business is doing?
As many others in this thread pointed out, both waiters and customers like tipping. The minority that hates it has various misconceptions about both how it works, what it does to salaries etc read a few very salient replies in this thread.
Tipping is not about moody strangers, the vast majority of people eating at restaurants are normal people with normal, predictable and reasonably benevolent behaviors. People will tip if the service is at least average. Won't tip when the service or food is bad. What better way is there to tell how your business is doing?
As many others in this thread pointed out, both waiters and customers like tipping. The minority that hates it has various misconceptions about both how it works, what it does to salaries etc read a few very salient replies in this thread.
I don't know -- if service at a place is bad, you just end up not going there eventually -- you still can be heard without having tipping as a mechanism to do it. I don't mind that the price is higher and everyone gets a proper wage without having to worry about the variability of tipping.
> The best people to make that determination are the customers themselves.
The only time you should not tip is when the service is bad.
IME, many servers don't seem to think they got stiffed for poor service, but instead blame the customer for being cheap. That's why I always leave something, but at a percentage relative to the service. It's probably the same outcome in the servers' minds, but at least I know I tried to convince them otherwise.
The only time you should not tip is when the service is bad.
IME, many servers don't seem to think they got stiffed for poor service, but instead blame the customer for being cheap. That's why I always leave something, but at a percentage relative to the service. It's probably the same outcome in the servers' minds, but at least I know I tried to convince them otherwise.
What I find interesting about these discussions is the servers side is unrepresented as if it's unimportant. I've come around to the idea that the majority of servers like tipping. And most patrons also like tipping. But there is a minority that finds the arrangement somehow transgressive to how they perceive the power structure. The server is supposed to be at the bottom of the totem pole and yet here they are expecting me to hand them some money.
if you believe in fairy tales that's the way it works. If you believe in evidence, then...
https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...
https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...
There is no system for tipping that makes sense. It's a bad social construct, just plain harmful from every angle. Let's abolish it.
That's 3 assertions without evidence/reasoning, and then a stated preferred course-of-action. Here's the same in the opposite direction:
"Lots of tipping systems make sense. It's a good social construct, and beneficial from every angle. Let's expand it."
Both formulations are just longwinded ways to say "I dislike tipping" or "I like tipping", without adding anything for people trying to form an opinion on the merits.
"Lots of tipping systems make sense. It's a good social construct, and beneficial from every angle. Let's expand it."
Both formulations are just longwinded ways to say "I dislike tipping" or "I like tipping", without adding anything for people trying to form an opinion on the merits.
Here is a longer form of argument from another person.
Tipping shifts the burden of paying staff from the employer who already derive most of the benefit from the staffs work to the patron who is pressured to pay a large bill than presented to make up for how shoddy the employer pays.
For the most effective and the most attractive wait staff especially white females in the most lucrative or the most inebriated environments they actually may make more than they would if paid a flat rate by their employers.
For the majority they are probably paid less. It's like a tax collected from black, ugly, or fat girls and given to 20 something females with nice boobs.
It replaces a negotiated predictable bargain struck after due consideration between adults with the whims of the odious masses who get to decide if their server gets paid based on whether she has sufficiently kissed their overly broad asses.
In some states they allow the servers to be paid less than minimum wage so long as they "tip out" which is to say they earned enough tips to ensure they earned between both sources the federal or state minimum.
Requesting the employer to make up the difference between tips and minimum even on a slow shift without enough business is a sure route to termination so staff are strongly encouraged to help their employers break the law and ultimately steal from them.
There are so many downsides and so few upsides and the upsides accrue nearly entirely to employers and a fraction of servers its hard to imagine anyone seriously arguing in favor of tipping.
Tipping shifts the burden of paying staff from the employer who already derive most of the benefit from the staffs work to the patron who is pressured to pay a large bill than presented to make up for how shoddy the employer pays.
For the most effective and the most attractive wait staff especially white females in the most lucrative or the most inebriated environments they actually may make more than they would if paid a flat rate by their employers.
For the majority they are probably paid less. It's like a tax collected from black, ugly, or fat girls and given to 20 something females with nice boobs.
It replaces a negotiated predictable bargain struck after due consideration between adults with the whims of the odious masses who get to decide if their server gets paid based on whether she has sufficiently kissed their overly broad asses.
In some states they allow the servers to be paid less than minimum wage so long as they "tip out" which is to say they earned enough tips to ensure they earned between both sources the federal or state minimum.
Requesting the employer to make up the difference between tips and minimum even on a slow shift without enough business is a sure route to termination so staff are strongly encouraged to help their employers break the law and ultimately steal from them.
There are so many downsides and so few upsides and the upsides accrue nearly entirely to employers and a fraction of servers its hard to imagine anyone seriously arguing in favor of tipping.
>It's like a tax collected from black, ugly, or fat girls and given to 20 something females with nice boobs.
Also from the back-of-house staff, who are rarely tipped fairly and often not at all, despite arguably having an equal or greater role in providing a good experience at a restaurant.
Also from the back-of-house staff, who are rarely tipped fairly and often not at all, despite arguably having an equal or greater role in providing a good experience at a restaurant.
but what if those people are already paid well? not that I know, but it is so easy to be an armchair general, that has all kinds of opinions on how to run a restaurant
Speaking from experience, they're not. Back-of-house tends to get a slightly higher wage, but end up making less than servers factoring in tips. Sometimes a lot less.
How does tipping a pretty girl become as you say "a tax collected from black, ugly or fat girls"? If you said there is an "unfair" advantage I get that (not that I agree but at least I understand). What I don't get, how is it a tax?
While we are at it, are you saying there should not be jobs where pretty people make more than ugly people?
While we are at it, are you saying there should not be jobs where pretty people make more than ugly people?
It's a systemic disadvantage made worse by the tipping system that is uniquely shitty.
Raise the minimum wage, disallow paying tipped employees less than the minimum and legally require all staff to share a tip pool.
Slightly higher prices will pay for higher wages and smart money will in any modest market advertise higher prices and no tips required simultaneously.
Raise the minimum wage, disallow paying tipped employees less than the minimum and legally require all staff to share a tip pool.
Slightly higher prices will pay for higher wages and smart money will in any modest market advertise higher prices and no tips required simultaneously.
So I think we settled the "tax" question. It is not a tax after all.
Now, if you are born having high aptitudes for programming it is ok to make more money? If you are born pretty is not ok to make more money in some jobs?
Now, if you are born having high aptitudes for programming it is ok to make more money? If you are born pretty is not ok to make more money in some jobs?
No, it's not tax. It's just systemic discrimination. If you're ugly I think you should earn just as much money programming as if you're pretty. Serving food and waiting tables doesn't require you to be pretty, it requires you to be attentive and personable.
Having lived in the US for closing in on two years, the tipping system and sales tax/fees being tacked on at checkout is one of my bigger pet-peeves. This would be illegal in other places as that's highly deceptive marketing.
Having lived in the US for closing in on two years, the tipping system and sales tax/fees being tacked on at checkout is one of my bigger pet-peeves. This would be illegal in other places as that's highly deceptive marketing.
I'm having a hard time finding it now. I've seen a graph before that showed that as tip percentage has increased over the decades, the pay the restaurant gives to the workers has gone down. Tipping more in effect hasn't rewarded the workers, it's rewarded the restaurant.
Except for the fact that virtually all of the available experiential data supports GP's take, and not yours.
I’m fine with the notion of tipping as a reward for extraordinary service, but it absolutely shouldn’t be part of a standard compensation package and especially not considered as part of a minimum wage requirement.
A well-intentioned misconception at work here.
Really ... in what other circumstance would you ever reward an "extraordinary" accomplishment with a mere 15-20% bonus. What extraordinary thing costs just 15% more than the regular, run of the mill normal thing.
Really ... in what other circumstance would you ever reward an "extraordinary" accomplishment with a mere 15-20% bonus. What extraordinary thing costs just 15% more than the regular, run of the mill normal thing.
You might be right, and I think it makes for interesting introspection. For me, it’s not necessarily a policy grounded in rigorous economic philosophy. Rather, someone—a person with thoughts and feelings—just went the extra mile to serve me and give me a pleasant experience, and I want to give them a token of appreciation in return. It’s participation in humanity for me, rightly or wrongly. Maybe I would also tip the software engineer (who went above and beyond to ensure the product I bought was well-crafted) if only I had some direct contact with him or her?
Thompson quotes the Uber study showing that ride quality/service does affect tip rates (after other stronger factors) – but then claims the study shows the opposite!
For tipping to be a useful feedback mechanism for the quality/service dimension, quality/service doesn't have to be the strongest, or among the strongest, factors determining the tip size. Just a factor.
And given that all of the other factors mentioned (like demographics of driver/rider, rider habits, location/duration of ride, etc) are fully determined once a ride is matched, it appears that quality/service is the single influenceable contributor to tip size.
So, contra Thompson, it is absolutely the case that, once all the non-controllable factors are fixed, the remaining differential in tip size is a reward for excellent service.
For tipping to be a useful feedback mechanism for the quality/service dimension, quality/service doesn't have to be the strongest, or among the strongest, factors determining the tip size. Just a factor.
And given that all of the other factors mentioned (like demographics of driver/rider, rider habits, location/duration of ride, etc) are fully determined once a ride is matched, it appears that quality/service is the single influenceable contributor to tip size.
So, contra Thompson, it is absolutely the case that, once all the non-controllable factors are fixed, the remaining differential in tip size is a reward for excellent service.
The meaning of non-controllable is "can't be fixed".
“The quality of the drive does seem to affect the tip,” List said. “It just matters way less than all these [other] factors.”
“The quality of the drive does seem to affect the tip,” List said. “It just matters way less than all these [other] factors.”
I haven't used Lyft for a while due to the fact that it had tip request - I've used Uber extensively, because it didn't asked for tips.
Uber in Europe does ask for s tip, buy also gives the option to leave none.
I don't mind tipping, especially if I feel the server did a good job. (Not even exceptional. Just 'good'.)
But I am a little concerned about 'tip inflation'. I am just now comfortable going over 10% (with it's easy math), and it seems 15% and even 18% are fading quickly into the past. I'm not wild about paying 20% or more as a tip, it feels like I'm being gouged.
But I am a little concerned about 'tip inflation'. I am just now comfortable going over 10% (with it's easy math), and it seems 15% and even 18% are fading quickly into the past. I'm not wild about paying 20% or more as a tip, it feels like I'm being gouged.
I like tipping my barber. His skill and care makes a substantial difference on the outcome. This feels like an appropriate place for tipping.
Doesn't the barber set his own rates?
If he's skilled and careful then why doesn't he charge in line with his value?
The barber dishes out haircuts with average utility of X, where the average price for a X utils of haircutting is Y. I personally receive more than X utils from this guy’s haircuts. As a courtesy to compensate the additional value that I personally receive from him, which would not be fungible to a randomly chosen barber of equal skill based on anecdata, I provide a tip.
Hmm, I sort of get why you do it but it still seems weird that the amount of tip should factor in the original cost. It's almost like you're insinuating that people should pay what they estimate the value of something to be to themselves, rather than what it's offered at. I don't go on ebay to buy something and then send extra cash to the seller just because that thing was extra valuable to me. Like most people I look for the best price I can find and then decide if its low enough.
I have often wondered if the solution is to tip the manager/owner of the business and let them distribute the tip (or not) as they see fit. Ultimately tipping or not tipping will be built into the overall cost of the meal so why not give the money directly to the person with the greatest ability to optimise the dining experience.
From what I read, this is stealing from the customer by everyone.
The owner is happy to pay less.
The waiter is happy to get tax free money.
Since nr_customers >> (nr_owners + nr_waiters) I have zero empathy towards anybody in this wicked system.
But I still tip when in the US because peer pressure, and I am there only once every few years.
The owner is happy to pay less.
The waiter is happy to get tax free money.
Since nr_customers >> (nr_owners + nr_waiters) I have zero empathy towards anybody in this wicked system.
But I still tip when in the US because peer pressure, and I am there only once every few years.
Having traveled extensively in Europe I will say that I came to believe that the American wait staff is more attentive, more courteous and more friendly by large margins.
I am talking casual dining here, Applebee, TGI Friday, etc level of restaurants where you get a decent sample size across many locations.
European restaurants just charge you an arm and leg for water - 300ml - that will be 3 euros, refill ... pff, cough up another 3 euros! There is your "tip" built into that overpriced water, right there.
Thus I find these types of articles quite unconvincing, where all personal empirical evidence says different
I am talking casual dining here, Applebee, TGI Friday, etc level of restaurants where you get a decent sample size across many locations.
European restaurants just charge you an arm and leg for water - 300ml - that will be 3 euros, refill ... pff, cough up another 3 euros! There is your "tip" built into that overpriced water, right there.
Thus I find these types of articles quite unconvincing, where all personal empirical evidence says different
You need to travel a bit more in Europe, then you can understand that many Europeans find the overattentiveness and simpering friendliness of American waiters shallow and insincere.
You will also find that whether tap water is free or not varies between (and sometimes within) countries.
You will also find that whether tap water is free or not varies between (and sometimes within) countries.
Really, your problem is over attentiveness? That someone comes over a few times to ask you if you something?
What I found immensely insincere and fake is exactly the European style.
There is this pomp, where initially the waiter is expected almost humiliate themselves, seems like the customer expects to be treated you like royalty, but in fact the waiter is sick and tired of another "royalty" bossing them around, getting nothing for good service, and will screw you over at their first opportunity
In the US the waiter fakes that they are your friend
In Europe the waiter fakes that they are your servant
What I found immensely insincere and fake is exactly the European style.
There is this pomp, where initially the waiter is expected almost humiliate themselves, seems like the customer expects to be treated you like royalty, but in fact the waiter is sick and tired of another "royalty" bossing them around, getting nothing for good service, and will screw you over at their first opportunity
In the US the waiter fakes that they are your friend
In Europe the waiter fakes that they are your servant
Guidebooks point out that European restaurant culture is different than the US one. (Speaking broadly, of course.)
I'll pull examples from https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/food-drink/res... .
The European view is that going to dinner is a leisurely affair, which can take hours, and is part of socializing. ("A Norwegian friend explained that many Norwegians have small homes and use restaurants for entertaining. It's eat and talk, not eat and run.")
While to Europeans, the US culture seems more like one of turning tables to get more customers through.
"I've had to explain to Americans that the service in Europe isn't bad when the server isn't hovering over you. They think it's rude to rush you!"
"My husband and I love the European restaurant culture. When we’re back in the USA after a trip, my husband gets annoyed with the habit of some restaurants where three different people will stop by the table to ask if everything’s fine, followed by the quick bill with a “no hurry”. But, everyone knows they want people to leave for a couple more table turns."
So, what you see as "attentiveness", other see as pressure to get them out.
Culture's odd like that. I grew up in the US South saying ma'am and sir to anyone over about the age of 10. Then I moved to California, and was chided for using "ma'am" to someone. It wasn't that she had a problem with politeness, it was the cultural context changed, so my polite wasn't her polite.
I'll pull examples from https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/food-drink/res... .
The European view is that going to dinner is a leisurely affair, which can take hours, and is part of socializing. ("A Norwegian friend explained that many Norwegians have small homes and use restaurants for entertaining. It's eat and talk, not eat and run.")
While to Europeans, the US culture seems more like one of turning tables to get more customers through.
"I've had to explain to Americans that the service in Europe isn't bad when the server isn't hovering over you. They think it's rude to rush you!"
"My husband and I love the European restaurant culture. When we’re back in the USA after a trip, my husband gets annoyed with the habit of some restaurants where three different people will stop by the table to ask if everything’s fine, followed by the quick bill with a “no hurry”. But, everyone knows they want people to leave for a couple more table turns."
So, what you see as "attentiveness", other see as pressure to get them out.
Culture's odd like that. I grew up in the US South saying ma'am and sir to anyone over about the age of 10. Then I moved to California, and was chided for using "ma'am" to someone. It wasn't that she had a problem with politeness, it was the cultural context changed, so my polite wasn't her polite.
"By outsourcing compensation to consumers, companies can pay their employees less"
They pay their employees less because otherwise, they won't be able to stay in business without radically raising their prices.
I wonder if the same people that want to get rid of our tipping system would be willing to pay double the price for breakfast?
They pay their employees less because otherwise, they won't be able to stay in business without radically raising their prices.
I wonder if the same people that want to get rid of our tipping system would be willing to pay double the price for breakfast?
I've lived in the US, and now live in Germany. Sit-down breakfast is often cheaper here than the States, and you don't have to leave 20% as a tip.
The only thing that I've run into is that water is not free. And that "service with a smile" doesn't really exist here as an ethos. You receive the same dour service no matter how much you pay.
The only thing that I've run into is that water is not free. And that "service with a smile" doesn't really exist here as an ethos. You receive the same dour service no matter how much you pay.
Why would breakfast be double the price? Wouldn’t that mean tipping on avg is more than the meal price?
Because everyone in the restaurant industry systematically underestimates tip income. It’s a pretty corrupt industry by modern standards. Waitstaff would get paid way more and the employer would actually have to pay taxes at value.
Prices wouldn’t double at most places, but some waiters at high volume or expensive restaurants make a lot of money, and factoring those wages would be tough on cash flow.
Prices wouldn’t double at most places, but some waiters at high volume or expensive restaurants make a lot of money, and factoring those wages would be tough on cash flow.
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Full time employees will now cost much more to the employer: taxes, health care, benefits, a higher wage (the wage of a waiter is usually much lower than the standard minimum wage).
All these costs add up and the result will be a much higher end cost for your meals. Restaurants usually have razor thin margins as it is...if they even make it past their first couple of years in business.
Again, I feel like most people complain about the wages, but will then complain about the meal costs when they go up because they misunderstand the costs in running a business.
I know many waiters and waitresses and most make way more in tips than they would ever get if they were paid an average wage.
I think if you talked to most waiters/waitresses, they would want to keep the tipping system.
All these costs add up and the result will be a much higher end cost for your meals. Restaurants usually have razor thin margins as it is...if they even make it past their first couple of years in business.
Again, I feel like most people complain about the wages, but will then complain about the meal costs when they go up because they misunderstand the costs in running a business.
I know many waiters and waitresses and most make way more in tips than they would ever get if they were paid an average wage.
I think if you talked to most waiters/waitresses, they would want to keep the tipping system.
Why would you have to provide benefits just because someone is full time? Vast majority of food service places aren’t huge operations. Whatever regulation rules force benefits for employees certainly don’t apply to a restaurant with 1 or 2 dozen total employees.
Here you seem to know businesses will do what they want if they can get away with it when it comes to employment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21308309. In that example you’d probably agree benefits don’t need to suddenly happen if a business can get away with it.
Here you seem to know businesses will do what they want if they can get away with it when it comes to employment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21308309. In that example you’d probably agree benefits don’t need to suddenly happen if a business can get away with it.
If tips are gone then the wage would be regulated higher by the business (read as “should”). Seemingly it would just absorb the 15-30% tip amounts but a lot of places would have to account better for the time when things are slow. Instead of the server burdening there slow sales (driver of the tip) the business would have to guarantee the wage. It takes the employee out of the opportunistic approach that tipping seems to suggest. The same happens when you take commissions away. The sales staff now wants a higher equilibrium to account for the lack of an upside.
I can’t say double is the right number but I’m sure it’s higher than just the effective 15-30% tip.
I can’t say double is the right number but I’m sure it’s higher than just the effective 15-30% tip.
>15-30%
Isn't 15-20% the effective standard range in the US for restaurants?
Isn't 15-20% the effective standard range in the US for restaurants?
Yeah. 30% is pretty high to give.
If you pay for it by paying a higher price, or by tipping, doesn't really matter for the customer.
This is just a scheme to circumvent paying social security and tax costs.
This is just a scheme to circumvent paying social security and tax costs.
15-20% is not double or radical. I would gladly pay that much more if I didn’t have to tip.
I don't get it - if you are fine paying the exact same amount why does it bother you to add that as a tip?
I can understand people that say that the cost of meals are in fact misrepresented because you are expected to tip. But if that is not factor I don't see what makes it so unbearable to add 20%
I can understand people that say that the cost of meals are in fact misrepresented because you are expected to tip. But if that is not factor I don't see what makes it so unbearable to add 20%
It sounds like you're under the impression that people dislike tipping because they feel they're paying "more", but the parent post wouldn't make sense in that context.
I am fairly sure that most people don't like tipping they feel that you are being "coerced" to pay more.
If the tipping would be about paying less (i.e. you may reduce this bill 20% if you did not like the service) do you honestly think anyone would complain?
If the tipping would be about paying less (i.e. you may reduce this bill 20% if you did not like the service) do you honestly think anyone would complain?
Your second paragraph doesn’t have to do with your first. Your second is asking if people want to get more for less. That would be true in many other examples too.
I’d be curious about the first assumption. I also assumed what OP did. Tipping is annoying for me. I’d rather it just be included everywhere. I don’t like having to think about tipping. I feel like youtube comments are the sort of place I’d see a lot of people think they would actually save 20% from no tipping being a universal thing.
The system is great right now if you want to save money. If you’re not going to a place again in the next year. Tipping will not benefit or hurt you in any way since you’re skipping the tip at the end. And if you don’t care about the server’s financial well being, then this won’t matter to you.
I’d be curious about the first assumption. I also assumed what OP did. Tipping is annoying for me. I’d rather it just be included everywhere. I don’t like having to think about tipping. I feel like youtube comments are the sort of place I’d see a lot of people think they would actually save 20% from no tipping being a universal thing.
The system is great right now if you want to save money. If you’re not going to a place again in the next year. Tipping will not benefit or hurt you in any way since you’re skipping the tip at the end. And if you don’t care about the server’s financial well being, then this won’t matter to you.
Tax is paid, and there's no longer unfair discrimination due to age or sex appeal of the waiter.
Assuming typical 15%-20% tip, from where comes the double price for the breakfast?
So the choice is 15-20% tip or double the price? That doesn't add up.
a) That's not a business, it's a bait-and-switch scam.
b) Non-tip countries have many restaurants.
a) so something you know is the switch for the past 50 years or more is somehow bait and switch?
b) Of course non-tip countries have many restaurants. The prices are also much higher. I've traveled extensively around Europe and places that have no tips..and the meal price is much higher.
b) Of course non-tip countries have many restaurants. The prices are also much higher. I've traveled extensively around Europe and places that have no tips..and the meal price is much higher.
It would be more constructive if you would apply mathematical reasoning to your post and come back.
1. Yes, tipping in the US is insane, and it's getting more insane with iPad tipping.
2. No, it's not ever going to go away in the US. There are many, many stories of restaurants that tried to go no-tip (and crowed about it) but eventually had to go back to tipping because (a) the best servers prefer tipping and (b) people will judge you more expensive, even if you're not compared to their price+tip.
3. If you are a highly paid professional living in a major US city, you should tip and tip generously (assuming normal or better service). At the end of the day the difference to you is a miniscule, teeny amount of your salary, but for the server, barista or cashier receiving the tip it's a huge difference.