An ultimate guide to memory palaces(metacognitive.me)
metacognitive.me
An ultimate guide to memory palaces
https://metacognitive.me/memory-palace/
86 comments
I was into memory training after reading "Moonwalking with Einstein" (Excellent book btw). But it gets a bit cumbersome at some point.
> I used to read a book, maybe take notes and hopefully take some new action. Next year it's gone, maybe I recall 3 ideas. How could I get more out of reading? So I memorized books.
I built something that exactly solves this problem:
1. You read book or watch video lectures
2. 1 year later, you remember less than 5%
I propose using a conversational learning system, that forces learners to respond. Their responses then act as "memory breadcrumbs" which helps to retrace the entire context. Think like your own chats on Whatsapp or FB. It's not a perfect system, but it works.
You can read my comics-based blogpost on the same: https://primerlabs.io/comics/memory-breadcrumbs-comics/
And if you want to try out, I have released two free courses on Conversational Learning Platform:
1. Python
2. Fundamentals of Computing.
You can try out https://primerlabs.io (No signup is required)
We create self-paced courses to teach yourself computer science and it's an excellent way to do that, IMO.
> I used to read a book, maybe take notes and hopefully take some new action. Next year it's gone, maybe I recall 3 ideas. How could I get more out of reading? So I memorized books.
I built something that exactly solves this problem:
1. You read book or watch video lectures
2. 1 year later, you remember less than 5%
I propose using a conversational learning system, that forces learners to respond. Their responses then act as "memory breadcrumbs" which helps to retrace the entire context. Think like your own chats on Whatsapp or FB. It's not a perfect system, but it works.
You can read my comics-based blogpost on the same: https://primerlabs.io/comics/memory-breadcrumbs-comics/
And if you want to try out, I have released two free courses on Conversational Learning Platform:
1. Python
2. Fundamentals of Computing.
You can try out https://primerlabs.io (No signup is required)
We create self-paced courses to teach yourself computer science and it's an excellent way to do that, IMO.
Cool idea. I'd love to check it out just to see how your concept works.
Have you seen this?
"Ancient Australian Aboriginal Memory Tool Superior to ‘Memory Palace’"
https://neurosciencenews.com/aboriginal-memory-technique-184...
"Ancient Australian Aboriginal Memory Tool Superior to ‘Memory Palace’"
https://neurosciencenews.com/aboriginal-memory-technique-184...
Yes. There have been many follow up interviews with these researchers. It's an early "is this interesting" proof-of-concept study. But, they are getting funding for a study which should generate more reliable data.
Do you have a source with more detail on the actual technique? They are a bit sparse on details.
It sounds like combining the spatial map with narrative stories, right?
It sounds like combining the spatial map with narrative stories, right?
If you want to learn more about indigenous memory techniques read: "Memory Craft" by Dr. Lynne Kelly and "Sand Talk" by one of the authors of the experiment in question.
Thanks for the tip!
Dr. Lynne Kelly also has a related book "The Memory Code".
Reading that currently.
Dr. Lynne Kelly also has a related book "The Memory Code".
Reading that currently.
This sounds awesome! Makes me want to have a look at memory palaces again.
In your experience:
Do you ever "refactor" you maps to show updated understanding? Or do you find that this happens naturally?
Do connections between different areas stand out or form?
Do you have examples of notices patterns or structure in knowledge because of it?
Thanks
In your experience:
Do you ever "refactor" you maps to show updated understanding? Or do you find that this happens naturally?
Do connections between different areas stand out or form?
Do you have examples of notices patterns or structure in knowledge because of it?
Thanks
> Do you ever "refactor" you maps to show updated understanding? Or do you find that this happens naturally?
Yes. I often add on things. So let's say I read a book and years later I realize that the author omitted something very important (IMHO). Then, I just add that knowledge to the appropriate room. I naturally remember what was or wasn't part of the book. With these systems you're training your mind to think a specific sequence of thoughts (in the act of recalling the experience of your mind palace). With training even the recall becomes fast. However,... you can't easy delete (not after rehearsing something for years). It's about as easy to delete something as it is to change a bad habit. It's just easier to make new habits (or add new information).
> Do connections between different areas stand out or form?
This is one of the coolest things that happens. A kind of thinking becomes possible that isn't available without the "whole topic" loaded in mind. You can see broad expansive connections. One fun activity (that you can do right now with two decks of flash cards) is to compare and contrast different books. Mentally walk both of them simultaneously forwards and backwards. You'll see how the connect and differ.
> Do you have examples of notices patterns or structure in knowledge because of it? Sure
First with encoding... _where_ things occur in your memory palace is "free" information. So some people when learning foreign languages store different genders in different cities. Say you're trying to recall the gender of Boot (boat in German). You think, "where is that boot shaped like a boat?" instantly you know it's in a cafe in Williamsburg which is where you put all the "das" verbs making it "das Boot".
You say you're encoding the periodic table, if you put all the columns in the same room, you know instantly that you could replace your Gallium doping with Indium in your Si wafer (in this toy example).
If you want to learn the party trick of knowing which day of the week someone was born on. You can either get good at mental math and learn the equation and calculate it. Or, you can make a system of rooms in which you stick people who represent all the possible years to "cache" part of the calculation. Then the problem reduces to addition of small numbers.
Yes. I often add on things. So let's say I read a book and years later I realize that the author omitted something very important (IMHO). Then, I just add that knowledge to the appropriate room. I naturally remember what was or wasn't part of the book. With these systems you're training your mind to think a specific sequence of thoughts (in the act of recalling the experience of your mind palace). With training even the recall becomes fast. However,... you can't easy delete (not after rehearsing something for years). It's about as easy to delete something as it is to change a bad habit. It's just easier to make new habits (or add new information).
> Do connections between different areas stand out or form?
This is one of the coolest things that happens. A kind of thinking becomes possible that isn't available without the "whole topic" loaded in mind. You can see broad expansive connections. One fun activity (that you can do right now with two decks of flash cards) is to compare and contrast different books. Mentally walk both of them simultaneously forwards and backwards. You'll see how the connect and differ.
> Do you have examples of notices patterns or structure in knowledge because of it? Sure
First with encoding... _where_ things occur in your memory palace is "free" information. So some people when learning foreign languages store different genders in different cities. Say you're trying to recall the gender of Boot (boat in German). You think, "where is that boot shaped like a boat?" instantly you know it's in a cafe in Williamsburg which is where you put all the "das" verbs making it "das Boot".
You say you're encoding the periodic table, if you put all the columns in the same room, you know instantly that you could replace your Gallium doping with Indium in your Si wafer (in this toy example).
If you want to learn the party trick of knowing which day of the week someone was born on. You can either get good at mental math and learn the equation and calculate it. Or, you can make a system of rooms in which you stick people who represent all the possible years to "cache" part of the calculation. Then the problem reduces to addition of small numbers.
what about running out of places to store stuff? i.e. a physical place that you know well enough to store memories.
It's basically impossible to run out of space. You can always go on a hike someplace to get another palace or journey. You can also reuse palaces in different contexts or weathers. For example, imagine it's all underwater, or it's snowing. You can create imaginary palaces as you gain skill.
How did you start training your memory? Is there one helpful book or website? Or did you just take the basics ideas and start applying them and get better with real world practice?
I started by working through: "How to Develop a Brilliant Memory Week by Week: 50 Proven Ways to Enhance Your Memory Skills" by Dominic O'Brien. It's got 50 short doable activities. That's a great way to start. After that check out Lynne Kelly and Nelson Dellis
so many questions :)
> So I memorized books. Convert a book into 100-250 bullet points, memorize them in a memory palace
do you have one palace per book? Many bullet points per location? Very big memory palaces?
do you memorise as you read, or do you take notes and learn those?
any guides that you found particularly useful?
> So I memorized books. Convert a book into 100-250 bullet points, memorize them in a memory palace
do you have one palace per book? Many bullet points per location? Very big memory palaces?
do you memorise as you read, or do you take notes and learn those?
any guides that you found particularly useful?
> do you have one palace per book?
Yes. Some people chain together small locations that in aggregate serve as a large palace
> Many bullet points per location?
At first I used the "roman room method" which put 10 items per room. Later, I store "memories within the memories" which is like zooming into a single item that itself serves as a mini-palace. For example, maybe Mr Rogers is in a room. I can zoom into him and he could have something on his head, in his mouth, on each hand, etc and he could store an additional 10 ideas.
> Very big memory palaces?
They are places I've been like houses with 5-10 rooms. I tried using the British Museum because it has google street view.
The key to memory is link ideas to what you already know well.
>do you memorise as you read, or do you take notes and learn those?
I've tried both. If it's a "concept book" then I read it once, take short short notes of only 3-5 bullet points per chapter, then memorize those at the end.
With "course/class/do-it" books where you're learning by doing and spending a long time with the book, I paper clip a folded sheet of paper in the book and do it on the fly.
> any guides that you found particularly useful?
I'll share some below. One point to share is that this is a skill (like bike riding). So studying the method (at first) is almost useless. Just try it, learn by doing. Answer your own questions by doing the experiments yourself. Start with memorizing something you actually care about. You will totally suck at first, and rapidly improve. :)
Links:
https://mullenmemory.com/
https://www.youtube.com/user/punknellis14
Yes. Some people chain together small locations that in aggregate serve as a large palace
> Many bullet points per location?
At first I used the "roman room method" which put 10 items per room. Later, I store "memories within the memories" which is like zooming into a single item that itself serves as a mini-palace. For example, maybe Mr Rogers is in a room. I can zoom into him and he could have something on his head, in his mouth, on each hand, etc and he could store an additional 10 ideas.
> Very big memory palaces?
They are places I've been like houses with 5-10 rooms. I tried using the British Museum because it has google street view.
The key to memory is link ideas to what you already know well.
>do you memorise as you read, or do you take notes and learn those?
I've tried both. If it's a "concept book" then I read it once, take short short notes of only 3-5 bullet points per chapter, then memorize those at the end.
With "course/class/do-it" books where you're learning by doing and spending a long time with the book, I paper clip a folded sheet of paper in the book and do it on the fly.
> any guides that you found particularly useful?
I'll share some below. One point to share is that this is a skill (like bike riding). So studying the method (at first) is almost useless. Just try it, learn by doing. Answer your own questions by doing the experiments yourself. Start with memorizing something you actually care about. You will totally suck at first, and rapidly improve. :)
Links:
https://mullenmemory.com/
https://www.youtube.com/user/punknellis14
many thanks, that's really useful - I've been wanting/trying to sort out my memory for a while (I did use PAO for a while before it fell out of use, and I've used a small palace for trivial things like shopping lists), and this will really help, particularly:
> Later, I store "memories within the memories"
This is such a good idea - I had been thinking about many many different points in a single palace, which is a lot of work; this would make everything much more manageable.
thanks again
> Later, I store "memories within the memories"
This is such a good idea - I had been thinking about many many different points in a single palace, which is a lot of work; this would make everything much more manageable.
thanks again
[deleted]
one more question, if you'll indulge me: do you keep a number of empty palaces ready for when you'll next need one, or do you create them on demand?
I used to try to do that. Now I keep a list of potential palaces and do everything just-in-time.
Preparing a memory palace is just yet another skill. At first it seems like a big "job" to do. Later, it's like nothing, you float through it once, done. Especially if you reuse systems like Roman room because that makes a lot of decisions by rules.
Also because you're trying to link knowledge to what you know well you don't need to have amazing recall of the place. Just a sense of a room that you know about, eventually will be enough. If you can recall furniture or whatever, then use that it will help. But if you're straining to recall... you might not get much additional benefit by trying to photographically document the space in your mind.
Preparing a memory palace is just yet another skill. At first it seems like a big "job" to do. Later, it's like nothing, you float through it once, done. Especially if you reuse systems like Roman room because that makes a lot of decisions by rules.
Also because you're trying to link knowledge to what you know well you don't need to have amazing recall of the place. Just a sense of a room that you know about, eventually will be enough. If you can recall furniture or whatever, then use that it will help. But if you're straining to recall... you might not get much additional benefit by trying to photographically document the space in your mind.
thanks again.
> photographically document
I have aphantasia, so it's a little more abstract for me, but I can still walk around spaces and pin concepts to them :)
> photographically document
I have aphantasia, so it's a little more abstract for me, but I can still walk around spaces and pin concepts to them :)
> I can still walk around spaces and pin concepts to them
Thanks for sharing. I'm really curious about what that experience is like for someone who has hard time visualising things.
Especially: if not visually, how do you maintain that link between an "abstract" place and a thing that you "pin" to it in your mind.
Thanks for sharing. I'm really curious about what that experience is like for someone who has hard time visualising things.
Especially: if not visually, how do you maintain that link between an "abstract" place and a thing that you "pin" to it in your mind.
I wonder if this has more to do with IQ than the alleged efficacy of memory palaces
IQ vs. ability does not scale linearly, so the difference between 100 an 140 IQ is not 40% greater performance but maybe many multiples for certain tasks.
IQ vs. ability does not scale linearly, so the difference between 100 an 140 IQ is not 40% greater performance but maybe many multiples for certain tasks.
What is "this" that you're referring to?
Do you use the same memory palace for different "groups" of things to remember? If so, do you ever get items confused because they are at the same location in the palace?
I've tried both approaches. Some palaces are one topic only. Others have been reused >5 times. With the reused palaces, with intention you can sequential recall just that topic. It's the same as having a party at your house. You don't confuse what happened at the party versus what happened when you were just cleaning your flat.
With "random access" memory within a multi-use palaces, then, there is a little mixing. Sometimes you are thinking about a topic, the mind "goes" to the appropriate palace and then you recall maybe all the various unrelated topics, but your mind focuses on what matters. In the mixing, topics take a mythological feeling because the characters within them are involved in so many stories. Like fables or comic books.
Augustine of Hippo (later Saint Augustine) from 354 AD:
And I come to the fields and spacious palaces of my memory, where are the treasures of innumerable images, brought into it from things of all sorts perceived by the senses. … When I enter there, I require what I will to be brought forth, and something instantly comes; others must be longer sought after, which are fetched, as it were, out of some inner receptacle; others rush out in troops, and while one thing is desired and required, they start forth, as who should say, “Is it perchance I?” These I drive away with the hand of my heart, from the face of my remembrance; until what I wish for be unveiled, and appear in sight, out of its secret place. Other things come up readily, in unbroken order, as they are called for; those in front making way for the following; and as they make way, they are hidden from sight, ready to come when I will. All which takes place when I repeat a thing by heart.
With "random access" memory within a multi-use palaces, then, there is a little mixing. Sometimes you are thinking about a topic, the mind "goes" to the appropriate palace and then you recall maybe all the various unrelated topics, but your mind focuses on what matters. In the mixing, topics take a mythological feeling because the characters within them are involved in so many stories. Like fables or comic books.
Augustine of Hippo (later Saint Augustine) from 354 AD:
And I come to the fields and spacious palaces of my memory, where are the treasures of innumerable images, brought into it from things of all sorts perceived by the senses. … When I enter there, I require what I will to be brought forth, and something instantly comes; others must be longer sought after, which are fetched, as it were, out of some inner receptacle; others rush out in troops, and while one thing is desired and required, they start forth, as who should say, “Is it perchance I?” These I drive away with the hand of my heart, from the face of my remembrance; until what I wish for be unveiled, and appear in sight, out of its secret place. Other things come up readily, in unbroken order, as they are called for; those in front making way for the following; and as they make way, they are hidden from sight, ready to come when I will. All which takes place when I repeat a thing by heart.
Thanks for sharing, I find this stuff quite inspiring.
How much time would you say you spent on training over the years? (Hours/week when you were building this up, or whatever)
How much time would you say you spent on training over the years? (Hours/week when you were building this up, or whatever)
Getting started phase: was 15 min a day. Over-hyped phase: for some memory "projects" maybe 30 min a day. Now: I just use memory tricks all day long without really training. However every day, for the last 30 min of work I try to recall everything that was important that day (free recall). At the start of the workday I recall the top-3 things to work on.
Another good resource is The Memory Book[0]. It covers a few different systems that cover different scenarios, such as lists, like in the article, names and numbers. It uses techniques like the article, but also expands on them in interesting ways. If you put the practice time in, it does work!
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Memory-Book-Classic-Improving-School/...
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Memory-Book-Classic-Improving-School/...
Excellent resource, especially for numbers.
I am creating a personal knowledge management platform called Memory Maps that enables users to build and maintain spatial mnemonics alongside their notes.
-It is built on Google Maps and allows you to create memory journeys anywhere in the world where there is Google Street View coverage.
-It will include an AI based copilot that can learn from the images you create, autosuggest good encoding images, and remind you of what you have already used.
-Spaced repetition based active recall practice is built in and optimized for mobile.
Check it out! https://www.memorymaps.io/
-It is built on Google Maps and allows you to create memory journeys anywhere in the world where there is Google Street View coverage.
-It will include an AI based copilot that can learn from the images you create, autosuggest good encoding images, and remind you of what you have already used.
-Spaced repetition based active recall practice is built in and optimized for mobile.
Check it out! https://www.memorymaps.io/
Great idea. I do this in a notebook. Left page: a list of items to recall, right page: a quick sketch of the palace. Rooms are simple squares. If I can't go back to the palace, then I paste in some printed photos.
Moonwalking with Einstein de-mystified memory for me. As mrock described, in the beginning it was a lot of work building palaces and making associations, but like a muscle, things quickly got easier. In time, memorizing a list of 30 or so became pretty easy.
I was able to memorize a list of 875 North American bird species and then recite it from memory. Took about 35 min to read it all back.
That's awesome. Did it change your relationship with or experience of birds?
It was like taking a walk around the perimeter of a huge mansion before actually exploring it. I learned the names of lots of birds and was able to associate them together, but didn't really learn their characteristics. In time I let the associations fade.
Mostly it just gave me the confidence that I was capable of doing something like this if needed.
Thanks for all the time you took in answering people's questions on this thread.
> Close your eyes and visualize your way to the shop in the head
So I guess people with aphantasia are out of luck?
So I guess people with aphantasia are out of luck?
With aphantasia, you simply cannot "visualise" the way other people "visualise". But you can still "visualise". Not using images but using the other mechanisms you developed.
Many people with aphantasia are unaware of it because they can function just fine and have workarounds that fills almost all their needs. They simply cannot add an image to it.
Personally, I can make memory palace work fine. There's simply no image, so it rely a lot on the same "path finding" the brain uses to allow me to walk around town without getting lost. I like to joke that my GPU is broken but my CPU works fine.
So, for the sake of etymology I guess it would not be visualise but factualize or some other word.
Many people with aphantasia are unaware of it because they can function just fine and have workarounds that fills almost all their needs. They simply cannot add an image to it.
Personally, I can make memory palace work fine. There's simply no image, so it rely a lot on the same "path finding" the brain uses to allow me to walk around town without getting lost. I like to joke that my GPU is broken but my CPU works fine.
So, for the sake of etymology I guess it would not be visualise but factualize or some other word.
Exactly. I can't visualize visual stuff, but for example, I can imagine and "see" code very well. I have a graph in my head of how various functions call each other or how data flows through the program. Sometimes the connections have different flavours/colours, such as build time, compile time, run time, frontend/backend/network call.
Would you say that you experience synesthesia or are you describing "aphantasic workarounds"?
I think it's probably aphantasic workarounds.
> So, for the sake of etymology I guess it would not be visualise but factualize or some other word.
In terms of the process, it's like imagining something using all of your senses: sight, sound, smell, taste, balance. You want to make the abstract concrete so you're recalling an experience.
In terms of the process, it's like imagining something using all of your senses: sight, sound, smell, taste, balance. You want to make the abstract concrete so you're recalling an experience.
Yes, that's mentioned in the article that this method might not work for people who have a hard time visualizing spaces.
Came here just to comment this, but yes, memory palaces don't really work for people with aphantasia
Several memory champions have aphantasia
didn't know that! do you know if they use memory palaces? can you share info about 'em?
Dr. Lynne Kelley the author of The Memory Code and Memory Craft has it. She uses memory palaces. With aphantasia you still have a hippocampus so thinking about the concept of space to encode info works just the same. :)
Has anyone used this approach to memorize music?
E.g., for playing an instrument.
I used to be able to remember plenty when I was young and practicing a lot. And certainly professionals can remember significant amounts (and not just the music, but performance details, fingerings, etc).
Seems like a different mechanism, relying less on visual and spatial associations, more on hearing. But perhaps it's similar in that you learn a structure and attach details to it.
Or, having developed a good memory for music, can we use it to help memorize random facts? Perhaps associating them with places in a song.
I used to be able to remember plenty when I was young and practicing a lot. And certainly professionals can remember significant amounts (and not just the music, but performance details, fingerings, etc).
Seems like a different mechanism, relying less on visual and spatial associations, more on hearing. But perhaps it's similar in that you learn a structure and attach details to it.
Or, having developed a good memory for music, can we use it to help memorize random facts? Perhaps associating them with places in a song.
The circle of fifths can be studied (and often is) with the loci method. Visualising the circle of fifths, with the relative minors, as a real space that can be moved around in is very helpful.
Music theory is full of little mnemonics, and is itself a sort of system of mnemonics:
Instead of an infinite gradation of frequencies, they are reduced to 12 repeating notes within each doubling, so that a 440 Hz vibration is an A, as is a 220 and an 880 Hz vibration.
If instead of doubling a frequency, we add a half to it again for a 2:3 ratio, we get a perfect fifth. By repeating this process (with some fudges) we end up with twelve notes, the circle of fifths, and the vast majority of Western music.
Rather than simplistically giving these 12 notes 12 letters, they get 7, in a clever system that allows for all 24/30 major and minor scales to have one of each letter A to G.
The 7 notes in any particular major or minor scale can be combined with each other to form chords. Major and minor chords each share a root and a fifth; the third is different by a single semitone. The combinations of three notes that sound nice together are thus greatly simplified.
Once the circle of fifths is internalised, all 24 (or 30 - ask Wooten) major and minor chords can be constructed, transposed, and played with.
So, when an experienced musician hears a song they can put all of that background to work. Instead of remembering each indivudal note played, the notes are chunked into chords, hich are chunked into keys and progressions. Once contextualised with similar pieces the memorisation becomes easier and easier. By the time all of that contextual data is assimilated, with music that is _felt_, there isn't much need (I'd imagine) for good musicians to use memory palaces for fingerings or performance details. I'd say a lot of that knowledge is in the hands, the breath, and the whole body.
Disclaimer: I am not a very good musician (yet).
Music theory is full of little mnemonics, and is itself a sort of system of mnemonics:
Instead of an infinite gradation of frequencies, they are reduced to 12 repeating notes within each doubling, so that a 440 Hz vibration is an A, as is a 220 and an 880 Hz vibration.
If instead of doubling a frequency, we add a half to it again for a 2:3 ratio, we get a perfect fifth. By repeating this process (with some fudges) we end up with twelve notes, the circle of fifths, and the vast majority of Western music.
Rather than simplistically giving these 12 notes 12 letters, they get 7, in a clever system that allows for all 24/30 major and minor scales to have one of each letter A to G.
The 7 notes in any particular major or minor scale can be combined with each other to form chords. Major and minor chords each share a root and a fifth; the third is different by a single semitone. The combinations of three notes that sound nice together are thus greatly simplified.
Once the circle of fifths is internalised, all 24 (or 30 - ask Wooten) major and minor chords can be constructed, transposed, and played with.
So, when an experienced musician hears a song they can put all of that background to work. Instead of remembering each indivudal note played, the notes are chunked into chords, hich are chunked into keys and progressions. Once contextualised with similar pieces the memorisation becomes easier and easier. By the time all of that contextual data is assimilated, with music that is _felt_, there isn't much need (I'd imagine) for good musicians to use memory palaces for fingerings or performance details. I'd say a lot of that knowledge is in the hands, the breath, and the whole body.
Disclaimer: I am not a very good musician (yet).
I use a mnemonic technique to remember song forms when I'm playing drums. I draw a map of the song, each measure is a square. Squares are arranged in lines in such a way that it makes sense musically (usually 4 squares per line). The parts of the song (verse, chorus, etc.) are separated. The squares are mostly empty, except when they contain something important to remember.
The drawing takes up more space than the typical informal drummer notation (for example: intro 4 bars; verse 8 bars; chorus 8 bars, etc.), but it is much easier to remember (at least for me).
If I'm learning a song that isn't recorded yet, I sketch this map during rehearsals. Before each rehearsal I try to visualize the maps of all the songs.
If I'm learning a challenging song from a recording I use a simple python program that draws the map from a given text file and allows me to play a loop over selected measures. This way my brain starts constructing a map of the song without conscious effort.
This sort of maps are some kind of constructed memory palaces in 2 dimensions. I personally wouldn't use an existing memory palace to remember a song, because the songs already have enough structure.
I need this technique only to remember the big picture. When I need to learn the changes or the melody, I try to rely more on music theory and "audio memory". If you are interested in learning jazz standards, you might want to check the book "Insights in Jazz" written by John Elliott.
The drawing takes up more space than the typical informal drummer notation (for example: intro 4 bars; verse 8 bars; chorus 8 bars, etc.), but it is much easier to remember (at least for me).
If I'm learning a song that isn't recorded yet, I sketch this map during rehearsals. Before each rehearsal I try to visualize the maps of all the songs.
If I'm learning a challenging song from a recording I use a simple python program that draws the map from a given text file and allows me to play a loop over selected measures. This way my brain starts constructing a map of the song without conscious effort.
This sort of maps are some kind of constructed memory palaces in 2 dimensions. I personally wouldn't use an existing memory palace to remember a song, because the songs already have enough structure.
I need this technique only to remember the big picture. When I need to learn the changes or the melody, I try to rely more on music theory and "audio memory". If you are interested in learning jazz standards, you might want to check the book "Insights in Jazz" written by John Elliott.
As someone who, back when I used to play (semi-professionally) I preferred to memorise all my music, I would say that memorising pieces for me was "effortless", and thus needed no technique, provided that when I would first study a piece, the intent was specifically to memorise it, rather than, say, to sight read, or analyse it.
I always found it extremely odd that, if the memorisation intent was not there, no amount of exposure would lead to effective memorisation. E.g. I could sight read an accompaniment 50 times and I would not remember most of it; once I decided to study specifically with the intent of "memorising" the piece, typically a handful of passes would be enough.
Scott Adams recently said something similar in one of his coffee podcasts. He made an experiment with himself: he has a short "skit" he always starts his show with, and he made a bet with himself how long it would take, if ever, to memorise that skit, simply by reading it, with no intentional effort to memorise it.
So far it's been over a year afaik :)
I always found it extremely odd that, if the memorisation intent was not there, no amount of exposure would lead to effective memorisation. E.g. I could sight read an accompaniment 50 times and I would not remember most of it; once I decided to study specifically with the intent of "memorising" the piece, typically a handful of passes would be enough.
Scott Adams recently said something similar in one of his coffee podcasts. He made an experiment with himself: he has a short "skit" he always starts his show with, and he made a bet with himself how long it would take, if ever, to memorise that skit, simply by reading it, with no intentional effort to memorise it.
So far it's been over a year afaik :)
Yes, memorizing everything (all the music) helped hugely in practicing. I used to believe it was because I didn't have to read the music, and could focus on fingers, etc. But maybe the memorization effort (and it wasn't hard, as you mentioned) was enough to establish a framework, and the bulk of my practicing was hanging new details onto the framework.
In the renascence there was a standardized system of memorized hand symbols to recall music. For guitar you can memorize fingerings by creating a person action object system in a way that tells you the fingering, the string and the fret number in one image. You can then use this to memorize classical music. With music you are going from conscious to unconscious procedural memory. But you can "double encode" using memory palaces and systems for a "backup". (It can actually help you learn it faster because you can get rid of sheet music)
I could never get memory palaces to work for me, but found that with enough practice, Mnemonic Pegs is like a superpower.
Interesting, I found this link that looks like a promising starting point: https://artofmemory.com/wiki/Mnemonic_Peg_System/#:~:text=A%....
I found the best ones turned numbers into phonetics, which created words, which you then linked to what you wanted to remember.
Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system it's not the system I used, but the DOS program I learned from isn't online anymore.
Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system it's not the system I used, but the DOS program I learned from isn't online anymore.
This works really well.
I remember winning a bet about who could retain a 30 (or 20 ?) digit number the longest - I won.
I also used this in primary school to memorize schoolwork for exams, etc.
Despite not using it actively for years I can remember the phonetic alphabet and can still "transcode" numbers to words to images and back well enough. I suspect I might be using a snatch of it here and there for a bit of a memory boost once every few months or so.
I'm the end I abandoned the technique, because it felt like I was "polluting" my memory with extraneous and distracting information.
Reading about memory palaces now make me think of trying them out again, it sounds like they bypass the noisy/distracting aspects of transcoding the information to nonsense associations to make them stand out.
I've taught the loci system to my son in the original Greek context to memorize speeches and they work well.
I remember winning a bet about who could retain a 30 (or 20 ?) digit number the longest - I won.
I also used this in primary school to memorize schoolwork for exams, etc.
Despite not using it actively for years I can remember the phonetic alphabet and can still "transcode" numbers to words to images and back well enough. I suspect I might be using a snatch of it here and there for a bit of a memory boost once every few months or so.
I'm the end I abandoned the technique, because it felt like I was "polluting" my memory with extraneous and distracting information.
Reading about memory palaces now make me think of trying them out again, it sounds like they bypass the noisy/distracting aspects of transcoding the information to nonsense associations to make them stand out.
I've taught the loci system to my son in the original Greek context to memorize speeches and they work well.
This is the number system explained in The Memory Book linked by joverholt above.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28642747
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28642747
I have an awful memory, and I experimented with the memory palace concept for a while. The funny part is, although I haven't used it in months (years) my memory palace is still perfectly intact.
If you liked this article, check out the book Moonwalking with Einstein.
I doubt it will revolutionize your life but it’s a fun read.
I doubt it will revolutionize your life but it’s a fun read.
Agreed! I finished it recently and it did a good job explaining how to make the memory palace really work instead of just explaining the technique.
Yea it really shows it's a skill not some weird hack that will change your life in one sitting.
Isn't there a "no free lunch" about remembering as well?
Yes, memory training is probably a good idea but how do you pick what to store there in the first place?
Forgetting things -properly- is an underappreciated skill in my opinion.
There are 2 types of information for me:
- For fun. Often not relevant and not practical. It's easy to forget because I don't use it. Though, I may intentionally review the information to "beat" the forgetting curve. Thus, this kind of information will be stored for more time. Artificially forced.
- For practical use. This kind of information is easier to retain because it's not raw: a practice will add more "missing dots" and solidify what's learned.
A forgetting process is a good filter of what we use and what we don't. The retained information indicates what things one should keep in mind.
The memory palace technique is more about forcing even impractical information to retain. I'd say one should define what kind of information should be remembered in this case.
- For fun. Often not relevant and not practical. It's easy to forget because I don't use it. Though, I may intentionally review the information to "beat" the forgetting curve. Thus, this kind of information will be stored for more time. Artificially forced.
- For practical use. This kind of information is easier to retain because it's not raw: a practice will add more "missing dots" and solidify what's learned.
A forgetting process is a good filter of what we use and what we don't. The retained information indicates what things one should keep in mind.
The memory palace technique is more about forcing even impractical information to retain. I'd say one should define what kind of information should be remembered in this case.
I imagine my set of login credentials would be a good candidate, instead of relying on a password manager.
I don't know if others share a similar belief as me about memory and understanding, but I see it as the following model:
Imagine your mind as a planet full of water (like earth) and some of its area is covered in land. There are asteroids flying into its gravitational pull and landing on the planet.
If the asteroid falls out completely out in the water then it will drown. If repeatedly a lot of asteroids fall in the middle of the ocean around each other, they may be able to become an island.
If it falls on the continent it becomes part of it, if it falls close to the continent then it also becomes a part of it, provided there is a connection to the continent.
The continent represents our mind. The asteroids represent data. The connected part of the land represents our understanding (i.e information).
If you read a piece of information such as: "Mackresh Holdings own 21% of Yojing Lee Corp, and the right to coniunctis viribus."
This is an asteroid landing in the ocean, unconnected to any land, and is likely to drown (one way to avoid that is to keep landing more and more asteroids to the same spots, until it builds up into an island, this is what repetition based learning does).
On the other hand if these topics can be connected to your 'continent' (i.e the body of understanding), then its far less likely to drown. For instance (completely made up) if you learned that Yojing Lee Corp owns election machines of South Korea and Mackresh holdings is a company fully owned by Mark Zuckerberg (the founder of Facebook), and the right to 'coniunctis viribus' means the right to merge companies under Korean law.
Similarly if you learn that Mark Zuckerberg acquired stake in that company because he wants to connect FB to the election machines, and he wants to do that by merging the two companies, this arbitrary fact has been connected to your existing body of knowledge.
If it wasn't Zuckerberg but the fictional Korean business tycoon Woo-Jun Paik from some TV show then you'd lose this connection to this fact (and the information might be Lost more easily again) as it will become an island of its own. On the other hand if you learn that this TV show was 'Lost' (part of the Korean soap opera storyline), then it might make some connection again, and that island could be found again.
Imagine your mind as a planet full of water (like earth) and some of its area is covered in land. There are asteroids flying into its gravitational pull and landing on the planet.
If the asteroid falls out completely out in the water then it will drown. If repeatedly a lot of asteroids fall in the middle of the ocean around each other, they may be able to become an island.
If it falls on the continent it becomes part of it, if it falls close to the continent then it also becomes a part of it, provided there is a connection to the continent.
The continent represents our mind. The asteroids represent data. The connected part of the land represents our understanding (i.e information).
If you read a piece of information such as: "Mackresh Holdings own 21% of Yojing Lee Corp, and the right to coniunctis viribus."
This is an asteroid landing in the ocean, unconnected to any land, and is likely to drown (one way to avoid that is to keep landing more and more asteroids to the same spots, until it builds up into an island, this is what repetition based learning does).
On the other hand if these topics can be connected to your 'continent' (i.e the body of understanding), then its far less likely to drown. For instance (completely made up) if you learned that Yojing Lee Corp owns election machines of South Korea and Mackresh holdings is a company fully owned by Mark Zuckerberg (the founder of Facebook), and the right to 'coniunctis viribus' means the right to merge companies under Korean law.
Similarly if you learn that Mark Zuckerberg acquired stake in that company because he wants to connect FB to the election machines, and he wants to do that by merging the two companies, this arbitrary fact has been connected to your existing body of knowledge.
If it wasn't Zuckerberg but the fictional Korean business tycoon Woo-Jun Paik from some TV show then you'd lose this connection to this fact (and the information might be Lost more easily again) as it will become an island of its own. On the other hand if you learn that this TV show was 'Lost' (part of the Korean soap opera storyline), then it might make some connection again, and that island could be found again.
It's not true that you don't understand/learn by "storing raw information". The Human brain is incapable of not understanding information. And even if there is nothing to understand in the data we try to memorize, we rather make something up to memorize it rather than forget it (what you have to do in order to use the memory palace on numbers, for example).
In many subjects, rote memorization is the only route to real understanding. I'd like to name medicine, biology, law and languages. Only be memorization, over weeks and years of relentless learning and just as much forgetting, the mental infrastructure of an expert is forged.
I can't cite it off hand, but there are even studies that compared understanding between students using a memory palace technique and those without. The former understood more.
In many subjects, rote memorization is the only route to real understanding. I'd like to name medicine, biology, law and languages. Only be memorization, over weeks and years of relentless learning and just as much forgetting, the mental infrastructure of an expert is forged.
I can't cite it off hand, but there are even studies that compared understanding between students using a memory palace technique and those without. The former understood more.
Define "understood"
This is so cool!
I do something quite similar, so I'll memorize certain references like where in a book/movie/source something is, and what it is.
Then, sometimes years later, I might be working on a problem or discussing something and not only do I have the topic in mind, I also remember the exact place I found it.
Maybe this is due to the rote memorization techniques I practice in my youth as a Indian kid, by age 6 I know my times tables to 30x12.
My colleagues also think its funny that I remember IDs, because they'll be fishing in their history for some ticket or article, and I'll just recall the url or item ID.
I do something quite similar, so I'll memorize certain references like where in a book/movie/source something is, and what it is.
Then, sometimes years later, I might be working on a problem or discussing something and not only do I have the topic in mind, I also remember the exact place I found it.
Maybe this is due to the rote memorization techniques I practice in my youth as a Indian kid, by age 6 I know my times tables to 30x12.
My colleagues also think its funny that I remember IDs, because they'll be fishing in their history for some ticket or article, and I'll just recall the url or item ID.
I find it interesting to hear what kinds of information people find usable to memorize. If there are people here that utilize the memory palace (or any other memorizing method): what do you put inside the palace?
I used to store:
- Casual thoughts and ideas to review and ponder about them later. In case I didn't have a smartphone or notebook near me, I could put them into a palace, into the so-called "random room"(a place that you should review periodically to sort the remaining things out, i.e. categorize, put images into other places). However, it's simpler to spend time looking for a notebook to write the ideas down.
- Phone numbers. In cases such as losing my phone, to call my relatives, friends.
- Information about people I met. Sometimes there were a lot of people I met in a day/week at university. I wanted to remember their names, some general info. The problem with names is they may repeat. One may use an image of a known person with this name and add a few more images to describe the person better. E.g. a place where you've met, hair color, a hobby, other peculiarities.
- First medical aid.
- Books' summaries.
Rather fun to store than useful in real-world situations:
- Bus numbers and their schedule. Also, a schedule for a local airport and railway station. E.g. where this man with luggage is going to? It's winter, yet he wears a Panama hat. Let me check the possible routes...It was fun to guess. p.s. I didn't haunt people.
- Birthday dates.
- Other random information, e.g. historical dates.
- Casual thoughts and ideas to review and ponder about them later. In case I didn't have a smartphone or notebook near me, I could put them into a palace, into the so-called "random room"(a place that you should review periodically to sort the remaining things out, i.e. categorize, put images into other places). However, it's simpler to spend time looking for a notebook to write the ideas down.
- Phone numbers. In cases such as losing my phone, to call my relatives, friends.
- Information about people I met. Sometimes there were a lot of people I met in a day/week at university. I wanted to remember their names, some general info. The problem with names is they may repeat. One may use an image of a known person with this name and add a few more images to describe the person better. E.g. a place where you've met, hair color, a hobby, other peculiarities.
- First medical aid.
- Books' summaries.
Rather fun to store than useful in real-world situations:
- Bus numbers and their schedule. Also, a schedule for a local airport and railway station. E.g. where this man with luggage is going to? It's winter, yet he wears a Panama hat. Let me check the possible routes...It was fun to guess. p.s. I didn't haunt people.
- Birthday dates.
- Other random information, e.g. historical dates.
I use flashcards to memorize things. Sometimes I use mnemonics to memorize flashcards. I used memory palace once, to memorize something for a Romanian language exam back in highschool.
Things that I memorize now: Bible verses (I've memorized all of Galatians and I'm working through Ephesians right now), a couple of important phone numbers, credit card number (I don't want to save the details on every website), and some programming concepts that I use on a roughly monthly basis - frequently enough to save time by memorizing, infrequently enough so that I can't memorize them purely by using them.
Things that I memorize now: Bible verses (I've memorized all of Galatians and I'm working through Ephesians right now), a couple of important phone numbers, credit card number (I don't want to save the details on every website), and some programming concepts that I use on a roughly monthly basis - frequently enough to save time by memorizing, infrequently enough so that I can't memorize them purely by using them.
> If there are people here that utilize the memory palace (or any other memorizing method): what do you put inside the palace?
Your memory palace won’t store information indefinitely. Not unless you keep reviewing it, at which point it might be best to instead consult your notes.
A simple use case is memorising a shopping list for an hour and letting it fade. In addition to utilitarian, it can be fun as a creative exercise because you invent interesting visual combinations.
I recommend the book “Moonwalking with Einstein”[1] if you’re interested in the subject.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalking_with_Einstein
Your memory palace won’t store information indefinitely. Not unless you keep reviewing it, at which point it might be best to instead consult your notes.
A simple use case is memorising a shopping list for an hour and letting it fade. In addition to utilitarian, it can be fun as a creative exercise because you invent interesting visual combinations.
I recommend the book “Moonwalking with Einstein”[1] if you’re interested in the subject.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalking_with_Einstein
> what do you put inside the palace?
That's the question. You have to want to collect something. I tend to collect random connections between disparate things (i.e. the answer to an everpresent "how does this affect the price of rice on Sunday?"). The other side of it that complicates it all is that your brain works this way normally. The mind palace is just a frame you can use to access a particular subgraph of thoughts. Once you do it long enough, it becomes second nature and you realize your normal, undisciplined thoughts are just residents of a different palace.
That's the question. You have to want to collect something. I tend to collect random connections between disparate things (i.e. the answer to an everpresent "how does this affect the price of rice on Sunday?"). The other side of it that complicates it all is that your brain works this way normally. The mind palace is just a frame you can use to access a particular subgraph of thoughts. Once you do it long enough, it becomes second nature and you realize your normal, undisciplined thoughts are just residents of a different palace.
You can use it to accelerate language learning. So you'll put in the words you want to learn (and have explanations or pronunciation hints attached to it) and you'll use this as a base for reviewing and learning words.
I'm told you can reach a speed of +200 words/week with this approach.
I'm told you can reach a speed of +200 words/week with this approach.
Mildly out of context question:
Has anyone tried those virtual memory palaces available for VR headsets?
I feel like this would either hack it and make it instant and available for all or fail miserably without helping memory.
I feel like this would either hack it and make it instant and available for all or fail miserably without helping memory.
I tend to eschew memory techniques. Often I find forgetting is a feature and not a bug - garbage collection of the memory system if you like: a sign that (given the current presentation) the data doesn't seem relevant enough to retain.
But as a child I was an avid reader and I scoured the libraries of my youth and naturally built up spatial memory maps for them.
I'm in my 40s now, but I still have a sense of where and in which library certain books and certain topics go.
But as a child I was an avid reader and I scoured the libraries of my youth and naturally built up spatial memory maps for them.
I'm in my 40s now, but I still have a sense of where and in which library certain books and certain topics go.
Learning something is different than using a memorizing technique. The former is for understanding and the latter is for putting impractical information. However, we may utilize the techniques to speed up or enhance the learning process.
>the latter is for putting impractical information
You can also input practical information ;)
You can also input practical information ;)
Does aphantasia affect the ability to create an effective memory palace? I find that my ability to visualize things in my mind’s eye is diminished and somewhat low-resolution. Has anyone here with mild or total aphantasia been successful in building a memory palace?
took me back to when I binge watched "the Mentalist" where Jane (the lead) explains pretty much the same thing. What an incredible show that was.
http://sauerbraten.org/ could be useful to create maps
I was expecting a Persona 5 strategy guide. The title's pretty misleading.
I also wanted to get more out of reading. I used to read a book, maybe take notes and hopefully take some new action. Next year it's gone, maybe I recall 3 ideas. How could I get more out of reading?
So I memorized books. Convert a book into 100-250 bullet points, memorize them in a memory palace. If I don't practice recalling my palaces, at least once every 6 months or so, I'll forget it. However, this isn't a negative. When recalling you can ask yourself questions about the knowledge. How is the relevant to my life right now? How can I apply this? How does the world look using this knowledge as a lens? How does this compare or contrast to other things I've memorized?
At first this was an enormous effort. But with all training it gets faster. We've all spent thousands of hours learning to read. Now reading is unconscious, you see a word and instantly you know the concept behind. My first book took about 4 hours and reviewing it took an hour. Now reviewing a book (250 items) takes under 15 mins, and I can do it while making dinner or driving. People can memorize a deck of cards (52 facts in order) in two minutes. Eventually, I believe it's clearly possible to be able to memorize at the speed of speech (250 words per min).
At the moment, I develop software. I decided to memorize the packages of the python standard library. Why? Is it going to help? It provides a link to attach concepts to. When I find a better solution than something in the standard library, I attach that memory to the standard library. Like when I think of argparse, I automaticaly think of clicklib and fire. Before coding I review the software development palace. I can hold it all in mind... because those packages have become one chunk in my mind.
With all this training, my ability to visualize has just gone through the roof. At the end of the day, I can mentally re-watch my whole day and catch interesting, things that I missed in the moment. It feels like watching a vivid (albeit dreamy) movie.
Anyways, like anything the deep end of this mind training is totally amazing and unlike the initial "lifehack" quick wins.