Bosch Unveils New Brake Technology(thebrakereport.com)
thebrakereport.com
Bosch Unveils New Brake Technology
https://thebrakereport.com/bosch-unveils-new-brake-technology-driving-future-automation/
52 comments
Non-blinding headlights already exist. Modern projection headlights can map where the light ends up on the road to illuminate your path while avoiding oncoming traffic. It just isn't widely adopted (in the US at least) as of yet.
It is here and sucks on curvy roads. My commute is down a mountain canyon and if I'm on the outside of a curve (turning left) the incoming traffic does not detect my headlights and I'm blinded for the entire curve. I want them banned. How hard is switching between high and low beams?
We're not talking about auto high-beams. We're talking about headlights that mask out a portion (of even the normal beam) based on where other cars are.
Yes we are talking about the same thing. The recognizing other cars part of those systems is… not great. (yet? hopefully.)
> The recognizing other cars part of those systems is… not great. (yet? hopefully.)
Or bicyclists or pedestrians. We have all of automotive histroy to demonstrate that blinding others isn't necessary for driving, not even for comfort-level safety gains.
Or bicyclists or pedestrians. We have all of automotive histroy to demonstrate that blinding others isn't necessary for driving, not even for comfort-level safety gains.
I don't know how he'd be deciding which oncoming cars are equipped with this feature, as it's still uncommon. And he said " How hard is switching between high and low beams?" which seems to be more talking about auto high beams.
Better -something- that's trying to mask low beams than the alternative (nothing).
Better -something- that's trying to mask low beams than the alternative (nothing).
> I don't know how he'd be deciding which oncoming cars are equipped with this feature, as it's still uncommon.
The technology is required on some types of headlights (which you can recognise), because…
> Better -something- that's trying to mask low beams than the alternative (nothing).
…they also made low beams notably brighter and reach further (= extended the angular output). The alternative isn't nothing, it's less bright low beams.
The technology is required on some types of headlights (which you can recognise), because…
> Better -something- that's trying to mask low beams than the alternative (nothing).
…they also made low beams notably brighter and reach further (= extended the angular output). The alternative isn't nothing, it's less bright low beams.
Adaptive headlights have only been approved for use in the US for ~3 years. They were sold in cars in the US before that, but the adaptive function was disabled.
My truck was sold with them built in, but disabled. Turned it on via OBDII. Best feature of this vehicle.
On country roads, it’s extremely valuable for keeping the shoulder lit up with high beams to see things like fear and bicycle.
On country roads, it’s extremely valuable for keeping the shoulder lit up with high beams to see things like fear and bicycle.
> On country roads, it’s extremely valuable for keeping the shoulder lit up with high beams to see things like fear and bicycle.
It is my experience that bicyclists and pedestrians aren't partial to the endless passing vehicles that are blinding them. Seeing is part of how they keep out of drivers way. I disagree that we should ruin their vision just so drivers can seem them even more than they used to.
It is my experience that bicyclists and pedestrians aren't partial to the endless passing vehicles that are blinding them. Seeing is part of how they keep out of drivers way. I disagree that we should ruin their vision just so drivers can seem them even more than they used to.
Please don't blind bicycle drivers with your high beams. Driver will not see anything after you pass it from behind for minutes.
> Modern projection headlights can map where the light ends up on the road to illuminate your path while avoiding oncoming traffic.
Ask any EU trucker about this and they will curse you out with the most creative expletives you have heard in your life. At least the existing systems are apparently hot garbage, especially on highways where some oncoming truck headlights might be hidden by the median yet you can still blind the trucker themselves (since they're higher up).
Ask any EU trucker about this and they will curse you out with the most creative expletives you have heard in your life. At least the existing systems are apparently hot garbage, especially on highways where some oncoming truck headlights might be hidden by the median yet you can still blind the trucker themselves (since they're higher up).
My recommendation to Bosch is to blame any problems on floor mats.
> I think Bosch is trying to maximize complexity of a safety-critical system by deeply integrating it into all the other bits of the car.
Wait until you hear about how the brake pedal works in hybrids and EVs!
I'm only joking a little. There are good reasons to integrate the brakes with electronics in the car, with regenerative braking being the smallest of them.
Wait until you hear about how the brake pedal works in hybrids and EVs!
I'm only joking a little. There are good reasons to integrate the brakes with electronics in the car, with regenerative braking being the smallest of them.
Are you saying none of them mechanically push the brake pads?
From the driver's perspective, they push the brake pedal and it just works.
Under the hood, there is software determining how much braking power the motor can provide. The car will maximize that and only use the friction brakes at the very end, or when there is nowhere to dump the energy. My car (a series hybrid) powers the generator if the battery is full and gets rid of the energy as engine braking.
As a result, the car is significantly more fuel efficient AND the brakes last much longer. Yes, it's because sometimes I push the brakes and the brake pads don't get mechanically pushed.
Under the hood, there is software determining how much braking power the motor can provide. The car will maximize that and only use the friction brakes at the very end, or when there is nowhere to dump the energy. My car (a series hybrid) powers the generator if the battery is full and gets rid of the energy as engine braking.
As a result, the car is significantly more fuel efficient AND the brakes last much longer. Yes, it's because sometimes I push the brakes and the brake pads don't get mechanically pushed.
Brake-by-wire sounds scary. In my current, recent-ish car, you can still control it - with more effort - if engine and/or electrics are out. I've had the experience of driving home with a suddenly failed alternator, watching one system after another report offline, until as I turned into my street, the power steering went too. But I was able to safely drive it to my driveway (with 7V remaining on the battery). I'd rather that cars stay that way, and not just because I'm a grumpy old man in training.
I do wonder about ABS and always have. If ABS can make the brakes not brake even as you fully stomp the pedal - is there a reasonably conceivable failure mode that would simply prevent you from braking despite perfectly good hydraulics and a stomped pedal?
I do wonder about ABS and always have. If ABS can make the brakes not brake even as you fully stomp the pedal - is there a reasonably conceivable failure mode that would simply prevent you from braking despite perfectly good hydraulics and a stomped pedal?
> Brake-by-wire sounds scary.
"We will have steer by wire and brake by wire over my dead body." - former head of engineering at Chrysler.
"We will have steer by wire and brake by wire over my dead body." - former head of engineering at Chrysler.
> If ABS can make the brakes not brake even as you fully stomp the pedal - is there a reasonably conceivable failure mode that would simply prevent you from braking despite perfectly good hydraulics and a stomped pedal?
The answer is not simple, as it has changed over time.
Early anti-lock systems were so limited that the system would, indeed, fail to utilize the maximum possible braking force. This was known, and yet these were deployed, because the research said that maintaining directional control, the primary benefit of anti-lock, had greater safety value than the compromise of maximum braking performance.
Today, however, anti-lock is greatly improved, and anti-lock systems are capable of applying extremely high braking force, even to the point of exceeding thermal design limits (overheat) of the brake system components. The sensors are sampling at higher frequency, the braking models are far more accurate and the computers are faster in current vehicles. So current anti-lock can perform at near the absolute limit.
Further, current systems can actually detect panic. Drivers often fail to even use the full braking force available. Current vehicles can detect when sudden, high braking force is applied, switch into "emergency mode" and boost braking force beyond what the driver is demanding.
These features started appearing in the early 2000's. Nissan, for instance, introduced "Brake Assist" in 2001, with the 2002 the Altima redesign (L31 platform) and the Maxima. It has the "panic mode" behavior I've described.
I personally experienced this once about 15 years ago. Somehow I distracted myself, and when my attention returned I was closing with stopped vehicles at too high a speed and too little remaining distance. Collision was certain and my foot crushed the brake: pure panic, and I never let up. I came to a stop in a blessedly unoccupied left turn lane almost aligned with the stopped vehicles. I recall looking over my hood at the driver of the car I'd nearly hit: between us was a wisp of brake smoke drifting up from passenger fender. I could smell the brakes. The anti-lock did that. If I had had no anti-lock, all directional control would have been lost and my maneuver into the unoccupied lane would have been impossible. If the anti-lock had not applied as much force as it did, I would have been in the intersection, possibly getting t-boned.
So they're pretty good today, and I appreciate modern anti-lock designs.
The answer is not simple, as it has changed over time.
Early anti-lock systems were so limited that the system would, indeed, fail to utilize the maximum possible braking force. This was known, and yet these were deployed, because the research said that maintaining directional control, the primary benefit of anti-lock, had greater safety value than the compromise of maximum braking performance.
Today, however, anti-lock is greatly improved, and anti-lock systems are capable of applying extremely high braking force, even to the point of exceeding thermal design limits (overheat) of the brake system components. The sensors are sampling at higher frequency, the braking models are far more accurate and the computers are faster in current vehicles. So current anti-lock can perform at near the absolute limit.
Further, current systems can actually detect panic. Drivers often fail to even use the full braking force available. Current vehicles can detect when sudden, high braking force is applied, switch into "emergency mode" and boost braking force beyond what the driver is demanding.
These features started appearing in the early 2000's. Nissan, for instance, introduced "Brake Assist" in 2001, with the 2002 the Altima redesign (L31 platform) and the Maxima. It has the "panic mode" behavior I've described.
I personally experienced this once about 15 years ago. Somehow I distracted myself, and when my attention returned I was closing with stopped vehicles at too high a speed and too little remaining distance. Collision was certain and my foot crushed the brake: pure panic, and I never let up. I came to a stop in a blessedly unoccupied left turn lane almost aligned with the stopped vehicles. I recall looking over my hood at the driver of the car I'd nearly hit: between us was a wisp of brake smoke drifting up from passenger fender. I could smell the brakes. The anti-lock did that. If I had had no anti-lock, all directional control would have been lost and my maneuver into the unoccupied lane would have been impossible. If the anti-lock had not applied as much force as it did, I would have been in the intersection, possibly getting t-boned.
So they're pretty good today, and I appreciate modern anti-lock designs.
I think the question was less about the efficacy of ABS, and more about the failure mode. Is it possible for the ABS system to "fail open" unintentionally, such that depressing the brake pedal has no effect whatsoever?
There is no credible way to answer that question. Analysis cannot prove the absence of such a flaw. All we have are records, and those are incomplete. What we can say is that there is no record of ABS “fail-open” flaws plaguing passenger vehicle designs, and the record is now rather long.
I'm suspicious of any physical control being replaced with anything touch sensitive.
waiting for... doesn't work when feet are wet.
Honestly, I think *-by-wire technology can exist, but I don't think it should be trusted to cost-reduction-at-any-cost manufacturers.
I've heard the cybertruck steer-by-wire has a control lag. And then there's the no-mechanical-escape door handles.
Honestly, I think *-by-wire technology can exist, but I don't think it should be trusted to cost-reduction-at-any-cost manufacturers.
I've heard the cybertruck steer-by-wire has a control lag. And then there's the no-mechanical-escape door handles.
I have throttle-by-wire on my motorcycle and I love it. Very precise and safe.
> I have throttle-by-wire on my motorcycle and I love it. Very precise and safe.
How is it possible to be more precise than a cable throttle? How is it safer?
How is it possible to be more precise than a cable throttle? How is it safer?
There's a decent amount of lag (delay between application of a force by the user and force at the throttle) and non-linearity in a 2-foot cable caused by elasticity of the cable and the cable guide and friction between the cable and the guide.
>There's a decent amount of lag (delay between application of a force by the user and force at the throttle) and non-linearity in a 2-foot cable caused by elasticity of the cable and the cable guide and friction between the cable and the guide.
What sort of motorcycle was this? The ones I had had metal cables; there is no elasticity (if it stretches, it ain't shrinking - you'll adjust it to take up the slack).
Friction between cable and guide also doesn't cause lag.
(Still want to know how it is more safe)
What sort of motorcycle was this? The ones I had had metal cables; there is no elasticity (if it stretches, it ain't shrinking - you'll adjust it to take up the slack).
Friction between cable and guide also doesn't cause lag.
(Still want to know how it is more safe)
By "elasticity" I mean any change in length in response to a tensile or compressive force. A thin steel cable is quite elastic in response to the forces on it in this application (i.e., a lot more force than you can apply to the cable with your bare hands).
Friction causes the force at the brake to be non-linear (and importantly unpredictably so) in the force applied by the user.
If you had said that this elasticity and this non-linearity (and unpredictability) are small enough to be irrelevant in a properly designed motorcycle, I would have no way to contradict you: I don't know enough. But GGGP's comment[1] is evidence that they are large enough to be relevant.
[1] "I have throttle-by-wire on my motorcycle and I love it. Very precise and safe."
Friction causes the force at the brake to be non-linear (and importantly unpredictably so) in the force applied by the user.
If you had said that this elasticity and this non-linearity (and unpredictability) are small enough to be irrelevant in a properly designed motorcycle, I would have no way to contradict you: I don't know enough. But GGGP's comment[1] is evidence that they are large enough to be relevant.
[1] "I have throttle-by-wire on my motorcycle and I love it. Very precise and safe."
> But GGGP's comment[1] is evidence that they are large enough to be relevant.
GGGP is talking about fractions of a millimeter in elasticity in the steel cable.
GGGP is talking about fractions of a millimeter in elasticity in the steel cable.
I'm largely there with you... I've frankly always had mixed feelings about it. Nothing like having your brakes or steering lose pressure while driving down the highway.
That said, steering without at least hydrolic/power assist is rough on your forearms.
That said, steering without at least hydrolic/power assist is rough on your forearms.
A vehicle setup without power steering is a lot different than a vehicle with inoperative power steering.
For one thing, they usually give you a bigger wheel, which helps with leverage. Power steering enables different steering geometries which likely wouldn't have been put together on a vehicle without power steering also.
Exclusive brake by wire and/or steer by wire seem like they will add confusion and delay, and perhaps increased risk of injury when dealing with disabled vehicles. At least in my life, it's been pretty handy to be able to get a non-responsive vehicle into neutral and push it to somewhere else in order to get it out of the way of traffic or to have better access to repair it. That often means using the vehicle steering to help direct it to a good spot, and the vehicle brakes to stop it when it gets there. Accelerator-by-wire is more acceptable, as vehicle without working electrics doesn't need a working accelerator pedal; I have driven one vehicle with what I assume was drive by wire with significant latency, it wasn't enjoyable, but it was usable.
For one thing, they usually give you a bigger wheel, which helps with leverage. Power steering enables different steering geometries which likely wouldn't have been put together on a vehicle without power steering also.
Exclusive brake by wire and/or steer by wire seem like they will add confusion and delay, and perhaps increased risk of injury when dealing with disabled vehicles. At least in my life, it's been pretty handy to be able to get a non-responsive vehicle into neutral and push it to somewhere else in order to get it out of the way of traffic or to have better access to repair it. That often means using the vehicle steering to help direct it to a good spot, and the vehicle brakes to stop it when it gets there. Accelerator-by-wire is more acceptable, as vehicle without working electrics doesn't need a working accelerator pedal; I have driven one vehicle with what I assume was drive by wire with significant latency, it wasn't enjoyable, but it was usable.
I do hope the pressure-sensitive pad has some “give” in it to provide physical feedback to the driver. Way back when the F-16 first began flying in production, the side stick was rigid, and more than one pilot would return with bruised arm muscles from pulling as hard as possible wondering if they had more available. While braking in a car doesn’t have the same frequency of needing full deflection (short of having to ride with my wife’s friend driving), there’s likely to be some similar discomfort from wondering how much more braking is available.
I heard there were some who broke it and then had to eject
I was thinking about exactly this possibility just a few weeks ago. Always nice to see a new, innovative technology that allows higher granularity in control, without pushing additional bloat or further limiting other areas of user controls..
To anyone wondering this essentially turns your brake pedal into a gas-like brake pedal.
Now what I'm wondering is, can we tie this all to the brake-light brightness?
To anyone wondering this essentially turns your brake pedal into a gas-like brake pedal.
Now what I'm wondering is, can we tie this all to the brake-light brightness?
As a species, people perceive brightness non-linearly and it even differs between individuals and with age. You would want to have a group of break lights could you light up in relation to the braking Force. 30% brightness is hard to figure out but one of three brake lights is easier to grock.
I thought of such a beast for a long while... that it would be cool to have an LED array that increased in numbers based on brake pressure.
Aside: anyone else ever been driving behind a large vehicle with the brake lights out? That's a not fun exercise right there.
Aside: anyone else ever been driving behind a large vehicle with the brake lights out? That's a not fun exercise right there.
how does this improve the driving experience?
Is "i wonder how hard they're breaking" really a problem?
People drive too close to each other already
Is "i wonder how hard they're breaking" really a problem?
People drive too close to each other already
When you're on a highway at 75-80mph in Phoenix towards the evening sun, and see a couple brake-lights ahead it can help understand the massive difference in terms of do I need to slam my own brakes or just take my foot off the accelerator alone.
Brake lights already flash if you brake hard.
brake lights are already disconnected from the brake pedal. many ev brake lights will come one based on deceleration, without touching the brake pedal.
Soooo is it disc brakes or what?
Tesla's move to unboxed model means they won't be able to have hydraulic lines. 48V means more power, but still need something like 50A per brake disc, IMO non starter for Tesla. Is it going to be batteries/supercapacitors or some other novel brake design.
Tesla's move to unboxed model means they won't be able to have hydraulic lines. 48V means more power, but still need something like 50A per brake disc, IMO non starter for Tesla. Is it going to be batteries/supercapacitors or some other novel brake design.
Do brakes really need much power? It's a lot of force but a small distance.
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If "touch sensitive" means it's a load cell then that's not so bad, simracing has used load cells for years and they work very well.
Brake-by-Wire has been in production cars for quite some time, BMW has had it starting in the Gxx generation since ‘19.
I believe this is fully brake by wire, where as existing brake by wire still has hydraulic backup
Terrible slop of an article that doesn’t say a single thing about why this new technology (brake-by-wire with a touch-sensitive pad) is better than existing approaches, other than it being “more sensitive.”
A lot of engineering of hydraulic brakes goes into minimising the pedal stroke, i.e. the distance the pedal moves when you press it hard. It makes it easier to control , supposedly. Also it's hard to tune the feel and response of hybrid braking systems where there's a transition between regenerative and hydraulic brakes. Maybe removing the mechanical link actually could simplify a few things.
2024
I did my best to extract details from the article's mountain of seo fluff. I think Bosch is trying to maximize complexity of a safety-critical system by deeply integrating it into all the other bits of the car.
Okay. We do build war aircraft that way and they're awesome but they also need a steady stream of $billions to keep them flying.
My recommendation if Bosch wants to be a radical leader in auto tech, invent tactile controls and place them where they can be reached w/o taking eyes off of roads.
Then blow everyone away by inventing non-blinding headlights.