Ask HN: Should I do a CS masters at Cambridge or start as a new grad at Amazon?
49 comments
Cambridge. Train the human, not the machine.
Amazon will still be there, if that’s what you decide for your soul afterward. If you made the cut now, you’ll make the cut again in future.
The world is so much bigger than commerce. Even if you choose to work the world of commerce, you’ll have a richer experience of it, and bring more subtle value to your professional career, entering into it with eyes that can see other hues in the outside world.
Plus relationships with a cohort of smart thoughtful humans who are engaging with the world from other perspectives, as you all go into the decades ahead.
Amazon will still be there, if that’s what you decide for your soul afterward. If you made the cut now, you’ll make the cut again in future.
The world is so much bigger than commerce. Even if you choose to work the world of commerce, you’ll have a richer experience of it, and bring more subtle value to your professional career, entering into it with eyes that can see other hues in the outside world.
Plus relationships with a cohort of smart thoughtful humans who are engaging with the world from other perspectives, as you all go into the decades ahead.
I'd chose Cambridge every time. But that's because I think I'd enjoy the time on the campus much more than in the corporate hell of Amazon. YMMV.
If the CS master is free(!), then go for it.
If you have to pay -lets say- 30.000 bucks, rethink.
The additional time of being student will open you newer doors, than if you are already working - assumption: IF the CS master is free, otherwise it may not pay off
Being a student is a huge privilege in most countries accordings to different costs/fees/taxes - so I recommend everyone to keep this status, as long AS IT IS FREE and legally possible.
If you have to pay -lets say- 30.000 bucks, rethink.
The additional time of being student will open you newer doors, than if you are already working - assumption: IF the CS master is free, otherwise it may not pay off
Being a student is a huge privilege in most countries accordings to different costs/fees/taxes - so I recommend everyone to keep this status, as long AS IT IS FREE and legally possible.
The opportunity cost of that privilege is still non negligible, even if you (like in Denmark) get paid to do your tuition free degree.
Regarding "final salary across live" - then: maybe, but very unlikely (eg, how mich people from Cambridge will work in Taxi driving bizz? Not that many)
Regarding "do you miss some additional time to do what you want to try" - then: this time is priceless
Regarding "do you miss some additional time to do what you want to try" - then: this time is priceless
Cambridge- for a few reasons: (A) Amazon would likely offer you another position if you still wanted to work there. (B) It’ll probably never be easier for you to go to, and do well, in school than at your current age / position. (C) You’ll meet a wide variety of people that’ll broaden your horizons.
Go to Cambridge. If you already have an Amazon offer at your skill level, with extra education it's going to be easy to have something similar or even better. Besides, those types of opportunities come rarely in one's life you have to have the correct amount of free time and the ability to take them. Working for a corporation can wait.
My general advice to students is to avoid big companies as your first job. You will be a tiny cog in a huge machinery and will drown in cooperate politics you don't yet understand.
If I was in your position I would try to combine masters with working at a startup or a small company.
If I was in your position I would try to combine masters with working at a startup or a small company.
So in terms of flexibility, Cambridge. Tons of companies will preferentially snatch up candidates with prestigious advanced degrees, and many of them will even pay you more. Heck, no one will care if you drop out of your advanced education halfway through. It's easier to go academia -> corporate than the reverse, unless you make a ton of money.
So in terms of long-term money, the question is the oldest one in economics: when is the next market crash? There's two conflicting narratives right now. One is that new AI technologies are going to take a handful of companies to the moon. The other is that these companies are engaged in an incestuous network of investments and the whole thing is about to come crashing down.
If the former is true, or even just a normal economy, the fastest way to make money long-term is to make a lot short-term while living like a monk and investing.
If the latter is true, all the stock you purchase/are granted in the next couple years will lose a big chunk of its value, and you will spend years just getting back to even, so you might as well wait a couple of years and jump in after the next crash.
So in terms of long-term money, the question is the oldest one in economics: when is the next market crash? There's two conflicting narratives right now. One is that new AI technologies are going to take a handful of companies to the moon. The other is that these companies are engaged in an incestuous network of investments and the whole thing is about to come crashing down.
If the former is true, or even just a normal economy, the fastest way to make money long-term is to make a lot short-term while living like a monk and investing.
If the latter is true, all the stock you purchase/are granted in the next couple years will lose a big chunk of its value, and you will spend years just getting back to even, so you might as well wait a couple of years and jump in after the next crash.
Reddit is full of desperate crabs pulling you down into the bucket. Go to Cambridge, that's literally a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Working at Amazon blows, especially as the bottom of the totem pole. If you can afford more college, go do that. You'll probably meet much more interesting people that way.
if you're used to the money, it's much harder to go back to studying. Also if you get to have a family you are unlikely to start studying again.
studying typically requires you to think broader, while companies usually want you to take a very specific role.
studying typically requires you to think broader, while companies usually want you to take a very specific role.
Well, that entirely depends on one's target career. Are you talking about the Cambridge MPhil in Advanced CS? If you do that, you're aiming for a Ph.D.
That's an entirely different direction from an Amazon L2/L3 or whatever. If you want to be a professional software engineer the answer is to take the Amazon job. The MPhil will not make you a better engineer. Experience will. As far as I know, you need to have a pretty strong Bachelors to qualify for that anyway so your basics are probably already good enough to the degree required for professional software engineering.
On the other hand, if you want a Ph.D. you are realistically closing your door to it by taking the Amazon gig. Once you start, you will find that the income you get is so much higher than you've had before and grows so much faster that you will be trapped by your now-very-visible opportunity cost.
The final thing, though, is that the market is in massive flux now. No one knows what the shape of jobs in the future will be like. Coding agents are already very good but no one has successfully managed to use them to lead frontier-grade research in software. They still hire Ph.D.s to do that.
In your position, I'd take the ramp on the Amazon ladder (and I did do a similar thing - going to industry over academia) but I will tell you that for those who I knew who did Ph.Ds the top few languished for 10 years (in comparison to those of us who went to industry) but then suddenly with the AI revolution in the last few they're doing well. A Ph.D. is far away from today. You've got your one-year MPhil to do and then the actual research. Long way to go and the intermediate step yields nothing.
That's an entirely different direction from an Amazon L2/L3 or whatever. If you want to be a professional software engineer the answer is to take the Amazon job. The MPhil will not make you a better engineer. Experience will. As far as I know, you need to have a pretty strong Bachelors to qualify for that anyway so your basics are probably already good enough to the degree required for professional software engineering.
On the other hand, if you want a Ph.D. you are realistically closing your door to it by taking the Amazon gig. Once you start, you will find that the income you get is so much higher than you've had before and grows so much faster that you will be trapped by your now-very-visible opportunity cost.
The final thing, though, is that the market is in massive flux now. No one knows what the shape of jobs in the future will be like. Coding agents are already very good but no one has successfully managed to use them to lead frontier-grade research in software. They still hire Ph.D.s to do that.
In your position, I'd take the ramp on the Amazon ladder (and I did do a similar thing - going to industry over academia) but I will tell you that for those who I knew who did Ph.Ds the top few languished for 10 years (in comparison to those of us who went to industry) but then suddenly with the AI revolution in the last few they're doing well. A Ph.D. is far away from today. You've got your one-year MPhil to do and then the actual research. Long way to go and the intermediate step yields nothing.
If the goal is simply money, take the job now and play the corporate game. There’s a lot of money to be made being cut throat.
If you have a genuine love for computer science and the craft of programming then steer clear from the corporate world. It will suck the life out of you.
If you have a genuine love for computer science and the craft of programming then steer clear from the corporate world. It will suck the life out of you.
if the goal is simply money, the cs masters is probably still the better long-term bet.
flip a coin, the option you want while the coin is in the air is what you should do.
The thing is I don't have a strong preference since intellectually I would be more interested in Cambridge, but would prefer living in the location for which I've got the Amazon offer - and in addition to that I'm confident that I will be happy with either choice, so for me it's really just about taking the rational choice career-wise
I try not to hold strong opinions, and to be equinanimous, but—don’t let location be the guide. As an Old, let me assure you… 2-3 years is so much less time than it seems to you now. You can live anywhere for the duration of a Master’s program.
If you’re the sort of human who is weighing a choice between locations now (meaning, I assume, major cities; informed mainly by your personal preferences rather than, say, an obligation to stay close to family) then you’ll be able to choose between locations afterward too.
Your career will be fine. It will reinvent itself constantly over the years of your working life anyway.
Amazon’s barely as old as you are; your professors at Cambridge will—themselves, individually—have been thinking seriously for twice that long, about aspects of the human condition that have proven durable over orders of magnitude longer.
The best preparation to stay oriented through rapid change is a firm grounding in the unchanging. Your choice now will change who you are. And as wise as “The Amazon Way” may be, humanity’s collective experience offers a much more diverse intellectual toolkit than just that way of working.
If you’re the sort of human who is weighing a choice between locations now (meaning, I assume, major cities; informed mainly by your personal preferences rather than, say, an obligation to stay close to family) then you’ll be able to choose between locations afterward too.
Your career will be fine. It will reinvent itself constantly over the years of your working life anyway.
Amazon’s barely as old as you are; your professors at Cambridge will—themselves, individually—have been thinking seriously for twice that long, about aspects of the human condition that have proven durable over orders of magnitude longer.
The best preparation to stay oriented through rapid change is a firm grounding in the unchanging. Your choice now will change who you are. And as wise as “The Amazon Way” may be, humanity’s collective experience offers a much more diverse intellectual toolkit than just that way of working.
if you want to offload the decision to a decision engine, might i recommend the following prompt to the LLM of your choice:
> "which should i choose: 1 word only"
the comments are already universally aligned. but, it now seems you want a defense of your preference.
> "which should i choose: 1 word only"
the comments are already universally aligned. but, it now seems you want a defense of your preference.
I am strongly against asking an llm to weigh the pros and cons of important life decisions. Flipping a coin or throwing bones on the floor is just as good at making an important decision. No one can know, you can't predict the future. Do what excites you. I was so excited to go to grad school, you find your people. Maybe you love it, maybe you get tired of it. That was a good decision for me, but could be the worst for someone else.
I’m against outsourcing decisions to the LLM too, but I do see the theatrical power of “see, even the robot agrees with all these fusty meatbags” :)
++1
Good instrument from PT!
Another one: "Try to think forward 5 years, what would you regret more?" - in this case: - Cambridge Degree
- Amazon Job
(WOW, while doing this exercise it went very clear for me!)
Good instrument from PT!
Another one: "Try to think forward 5 years, what would you regret more?" - in this case: - Cambridge Degree
- Amazon Job
(WOW, while doing this exercise it went very clear for me!)
Alternatively, flip a coin, and if you don't like the result, you know what you really wanted.
This is actually good advice i'm not gonna lie
Cambridge.
You'll have no problem getting the Amazon job (or similar) with a masters degree from Cambridge afterwards.
I doubt you'll retire wishing you'd worked just one more year at Amazon.
(I have a masters from Imperial. An equally good alternative if you'd prefer to live in London, or prefer somewhere a little more business focused. Google and Amazon both skipped the first interview stage based on my degree.)
Also if you ask Amazon, they're very likely to keep the job offer open for a year.
You'll have no problem getting the Amazon job (or similar) with a masters degree from Cambridge afterwards.
I doubt you'll retire wishing you'd worked just one more year at Amazon.
(I have a masters from Imperial. An equally good alternative if you'd prefer to live in London, or prefer somewhere a little more business focused. Google and Amazon both skipped the first interview stage based on my degree.)
Also if you ask Amazon, they're very likely to keep the job offer open for a year.
It becomes much harder to go back to school after a while. Responsibilities pile up, you fall out of eligibility for funding.
I loved doing a masters as a mature student, but I was very lucky to be able to do so.
School won't always be so easy. Do school.
Also, Amazon are gross.
I loved doing a masters as a mature student, but I was very lucky to be able to do so.
School won't always be so easy. Do school.
Also, Amazon are gross.
It depends on what you want to do with your life and career. You haven't said what your interests are or what your Master's is going to be in. If you want to be a software engineer then starting career early is better. If you want to go into research then going to university is better. If your Masters is going to be in liberal arts then your prospects of a lucrative job out of Cambridge will be less than having gained two years of professional experience. Since I don't know the specifics, I'll give general advise - decide what's important to you long term and choose the option that aligns with it.
Cambridge. The experience will be more enjoyable, the networking will be good, and seeing a Masters from Cambridge on a resume would make a bigger impression (to me) than seeing that you worked for Amazon.
Probably masters. Few reasons:
- it's easier to keep going than to come back from a job. - our industry is changing, heavily, and I have no idea what shape it'll be in in four years time. - I think that AI is making much of the experience of an entry level redundant. What you get from your masters might make more of a difference.
- it's easier to keep going than to come back from a job. - our industry is changing, heavily, and I have no idea what shape it'll be in in four years time. - I think that AI is making much of the experience of an entry level redundant. What you get from your masters might make more of a difference.
Aligning with your goals, take Amazon.
Over the long term (assuming the next 10-15 years) getting more experience with building, communicating, and operating systems that solve business problems will get you more cash.
In theory, that masters may boost your starting comp but in the longer term, your comp would likely end up similar. I've worked on numerous teams with a mix of all academic levels and it has never been a huge predictor of comp.
Take this with a grain of salt, it's all anecdotal :).
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Congrats on 2 wonderful options!
Over the long term (assuming the next 10-15 years) getting more experience with building, communicating, and operating systems that solve business problems will get you more cash.
In theory, that masters may boost your starting comp but in the longer term, your comp would likely end up similar. I've worked on numerous teams with a mix of all academic levels and it has never been a huge predictor of comp.
Take this with a grain of salt, it's all anecdotal :).
---
Congrats on 2 wonderful options!
I grew up in an environment that valued education over all else, so I pursued post-grad stuff starting 1997 or so and stuck to my guns until way after dot com crashed. Turns out I hated it and ended up wasting a bunch of time and missing out on the exciting stuff, so the advice I would give to my then-self is obviously to not do that. But would I give the same advice to myself if conditions were like today? Thinking maybe not, unless the Amazon thing was thick in the AI infra tech.
5-10 years ago, I would have said to take the job, if you want to maximize the number in your bank account.
Today, assuming you have no pressure to start working, I'd suggest Cambridge. Due to AI, much is in flux in software engineering today and I don't think you lose anything by waiting a bit to see where the chips fall _and_ getting some valuable credentials in the meantime. Get experience with something that will be valuable in the AI business in the coming years.
Today, assuming you have no pressure to start working, I'd suggest Cambridge. Due to AI, much is in flux in software engineering today and I don't think you lose anything by waiting a bit to see where the chips fall _and_ getting some valuable credentials in the meantime. Get experience with something that will be valuable in the AI business in the coming years.
I've not worked at Amazon, but work in other big tech. If you were my son, I'd tell you to pursue Cambridge. Amazon employment isn't that special.
(i've been in industry for 18+ years, went to a name brand school, and live in the heart of silicon valley. Cambridge, i'd imagine, gives you at the least a more interesting story, and at the most a different opportunity set. amazon is now the lower bar of what you should hope to attain after Cambridge.)
(i've been in industry for 18+ years, went to a name brand school, and live in the heart of silicon valley. Cambridge, i'd imagine, gives you at the least a more interesting story, and at the most a different opportunity set. amazon is now the lower bar of what you should hope to attain after Cambridge.)
Both experiences would help your future employment. I'd encourage grad school unless the Amazon job was something particularly special and perfect. Amazon might be willing to defer your job for a year while you get a MS.
Will your grad school work be done in a year resulting in the equivalent of an MS, or are you looking at a phd or longer timeframe? Shorter timeframe is better, then you can torture yourself again by looking for a job after the MS. Are you studying something you like, is it relevant with today's AI craze or not? Do you feel excited and passionate, do you care about getting an MS?
No one can predict what the job market will be in a year, will we be in a widespread depression? More likely it will be like today, economy ok but unclear future as the world muddles through. Even if you go there now, amazon could lay you and your division off and you'd be scrambling for a new job to stay in the US (presuming you aren't a us citizen). Or maybe your grad school work would make you more employable (or you work on something at amazon that is hot), depends on the area.
I was excited to go to grad school and was glad I went because my undergrad wasn't an especially great school. Then I went to big tech after grad school years passed. If you are excited about grad school and it's not a many year commitment then I'd go that. If you are hot to come to Seattle or where-ever, and you are paid enough to live there, and/or Amazon offers you a job working in something that excites you then do that. No easy answers in life.
This feels like a wishy-washy answer but everyone has to decide for themselves.
Will your grad school work be done in a year resulting in the equivalent of an MS, or are you looking at a phd or longer timeframe? Shorter timeframe is better, then you can torture yourself again by looking for a job after the MS. Are you studying something you like, is it relevant with today's AI craze or not? Do you feel excited and passionate, do you care about getting an MS?
No one can predict what the job market will be in a year, will we be in a widespread depression? More likely it will be like today, economy ok but unclear future as the world muddles through. Even if you go there now, amazon could lay you and your division off and you'd be scrambling for a new job to stay in the US (presuming you aren't a us citizen). Or maybe your grad school work would make you more employable (or you work on something at amazon that is hot), depends on the area.
I was excited to go to grad school and was glad I went because my undergrad wasn't an especially great school. Then I went to big tech after grad school years passed. If you are excited about grad school and it's not a many year commitment then I'd go that. If you are hot to come to Seattle or where-ever, and you are paid enough to live there, and/or Amazon offers you a job working in something that excites you then do that. No easy answers in life.
This feels like a wishy-washy answer but everyone has to decide for themselves.
I'd choose Cambridge, as I am sure that it provides the opportunity to meet a lot of influential people that you might be glad to have in your contacts later on in life, as well as a masters from there will open a lot of doors alone.
No one knows what is going to happen in the long term. No one is going to know what is going to happen in the short term. I'd take the education and put off working as long as possible and see if the market sorts itself out.
Cambridge MS will open doors that will never open for you otherwise. Amazon will be there in 2 years, you won’t have control over your destiny, and things can go much more wrong there with toxic people and no recourse.
Avoid Amazon
Either way, I suggested you try to build and launch 1 product per month.
For example, someone launched a SAAS for excel formulas that now makes +$2M.
Do the masters. None of us know what the hell is going to happen with coding as a job right now, but a graduate degree carries weight well outside its narrow area. If coding goes to complete shit and you're in or done school, you'll be in a great position in two years to pivot into something else for a PhD. If you're just working, well you're just another layoff.
TAKE THE JOB OFFER.
You can always get your Masters if you get laid off. Jobs are precious especially for new grads. Do not make the mistake of passing over this job offer, it’s worth so much more than a masters degree. You can always get your master’s later on, for example if you get laid off from Amazon and can’t find another job.
You can always get your Masters if you get laid off. Jobs are precious especially for new grads. Do not make the mistake of passing over this job offer, it’s worth so much more than a masters degree. You can always get your master’s later on, for example if you get laid off from Amazon and can’t find another job.
haha, you CAN, but you WONT - here is why:
The thing is, when you leave university and you have tasted the first salary, it usually does not happen that you go back to university and have a 50-60% cut becuse of being a student again.
From my earlier cycles, NONE of the "i-will-finish-MA/MS-later-while-in-the-job" succeeded - and these were people much more intelligent than me: The minute you leave university and say "i-will-be-back", the future you imagine will never matrialize in 99.5% cases
Jobs are precious right now, especially at a name brand big tech company. That is worth much more than a masters degree. Having real job experience is hard to get right now so forgoing that for further education that is only incrementally useful over a bachelors degree is not worth it
Depends on your history, what team you're on at Amazon and what you are planning to study at Cambridge. In general, I would choose Cambridge, but if your undergrad was at a Tier1 university and you are working on a truly cutting edge team at Amazon, then you can consider Amazon.
Note that Amazon has some cultural misfeatures that require unlearning at other employers.
I've hired ex-Amazon engineers at Google who believe that your job is to fuck over as many other teams as possible in the name of delivering your feature as quickly as possible so you can climb the ladder, and who believe your manager's job is to back you up while you fuck over those other teams and steal credit from other engineers on them. They tend to struggle in Google's more collaborative culture, and I'd imagine they'd also struggle in other companies that are a little less sociopathic. The problem is particularly acute with people who have never worked anywhere but Amazon; older employees coming out of Amazon are more like "Well, that's just how Amazon is, I'll adapt myself to whatever culture my current job has", but junior engineers are often shaped and molded by it because they've never known anything else.
I'm often a big fan of going to industry early because a.) you make more money early which can then compound and b.) you actually do learn a lot of tacit knowledge working in industry, very often more relevant than what you'd learn as a student. But if the choice is between Amazon and Cambridge I would probably do Cambridge.
I've hired ex-Amazon engineers at Google who believe that your job is to fuck over as many other teams as possible in the name of delivering your feature as quickly as possible so you can climb the ladder, and who believe your manager's job is to back you up while you fuck over those other teams and steal credit from other engineers on them. They tend to struggle in Google's more collaborative culture, and I'd imagine they'd also struggle in other companies that are a little less sociopathic. The problem is particularly acute with people who have never worked anywhere but Amazon; older employees coming out of Amazon are more like "Well, that's just how Amazon is, I'll adapt myself to whatever culture my current job has", but junior engineers are often shaped and molded by it because they've never known anything else.
I'm often a big fan of going to industry early because a.) you make more money early which can then compound and b.) you actually do learn a lot of tacit knowledge working in industry, very often more relevant than what you'd learn as a student. But if the choice is between Amazon and Cambridge I would probably do Cambridge.
100% amazon. real world experience is worth 10x more than degrees.
This ^
That said… Amazon does suck as a company to work for but you will learn a lot of useful and transferable skills. Stay long enough, but not too long.
That said… Amazon does suck as a company to work for but you will learn a lot of useful and transferable skills. Stay long enough, but not too long.
EDIT: It's very funny, I've asked the same thing on Reddit and over there 14 out of 15 comments advised me to take the job offer and here on HN the first 3 out of 3 comments tell me to do the masters