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_t89y

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The next person that says textual modalities gets it

huggingface.co
1 points·by _t89y·3 years ago·1 comments

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_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
That's a really interesting thing to point out. NLP doesn't even work on language anymore. If it was adjacent to information retrieval before it is now a subfield of information retrieval. As long as it's grounded in Firth Mode natural language understanding, as it's called, can't really be a semantics.

I tried to create a Kaggle (TensorFlow Hub, TensorFlow Quantum) competition for motivating alternative formalisms but was unable to publish it because all Kaggle competitions must be evaluated with information retrieval metrics. Talk about a one-track mindset!

Today work in NLP advances by ``leaderboards'' and dubious, language-specific evaluation datasets that the same authors stand to benefit from when their proprietary model is praised for doing well on the evaluation criteria they invented a few months back. It validates the price hike for access to their proprietary models.

These formalisms that do work are at odds with Firth Mode, the preferred representation for Google (Stanford, OpenAI), so I guess we should be thankful they're still in the book. If you're interested in language, though, I'd suggest picking up a different book.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
They've taken off because they have utility in information retrieval systems. They work for getting info into Google (Stanford) Knowledge Panels. I don't think it really goes any further than that. They are most useful to the few orgs that went from dominating NLP research to controlling it outright by convincing everyone scale is the only way forward and owning scale. Alternatives to word embeddings aren't even considered or discussed. They are assumed as a starting point for pretty much all work in NLP today even though they are as uninteresting today as they were when word2vec was published in 2013. They do not and will not work for language.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
There is an inherent structure in language. Embeddings do not and will not capture it. It's why they do not work. Their ability to form grammatical sentences with high accuracy is part of the illusion that you have been understood.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
Easy there, Firthmiester. I'm familiar with the canon. If getting some desirable behavior in your application is good enough for you then feel free to ignore what I'm saying.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39680852
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
The Lambek calculus. Categorial grammars. Meanings are proofs. Not clusters of directional magnitudes in space.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
Having a mid-century theory of natural language semantics isn't necessarily a bad thing. You just have to pick the right one.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
Modeling language in a latent space is useful for certain kinds of analyses and certain aspects of language. It has its place as an empirical tool. That place is not the nuts and bolts of language itself. There are more suitable formalisms for this than directional magnitudes and BPE tiktokens.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
Uh oh. LOL. Got some angry Firthers out there.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
You can't fine-tune for understanding or reasoning. You can't "get better performance" on understanding. You're either equipped for it or you're not.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
For describing semantics in natural language? Pretty much anything else.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
Works for what? The leaderboards? BPE tiktokens, BPE GPT-2 tokens, SentencePiece, GloVe, word2vec, ..., take your pick, they all end up in a latent space of arbitrary dimensionality and arbitrary vocab size where they can be mapped onto images. This is never going to work for language. The only thing the leaderboards are good for is enabling you to charge more for your model than everyone else for a month or two. The only meaning hyperparameters like dimensionality and vocab size have is in their message that more is always better and scaling up is what matters.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
They make a mess of language. They are not a suitable representation. They are suitable for their efficiency in information retrieval systems and for sometimes crudely capturing semantic attributes in a way that is unreliable and uninterpretable. It ends there. Here's to ten more years of word2vec.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
It is true. And if you want to say anything about meaning this isn't even the right math.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
It is meaningless to talk about cosine similarity of sentences, or words, at all. Choose whatever mapping you want. You'll still be in Firth Mode.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
No understanding. Embeddings are a semantically vacuous representation and similarity is a semantically vacuous interpretation.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
It's definitely not about semantics or language. As far as language is concerned similarity metrics are semantically vacuous and quantifying semantic similarity is a bogus enterprise.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
Thanks for this perspective on the tradeoff between accuracy and efficiency and the insight that an adequately pre-trained model should be in a position to recover lost information from bad tokens.

Tokenization, the gateway to word embeddings, is a means to an end. I'm not suggesting that better tokens are needed or that BPE tokens should be replaced with something else. I'm suggesting that aiming for a distributional semantics is setting the bar pretty low and that there are better places to end up than These Things Are Over Here And Those Things Are Over There Let's Combine Them And See What Happens. I'm expressing disbelief that these representations have been taken at face value and that there has been practically no discussion of applying alternative formalisms which may be more expressive.

Modeling language in a latent space only makes sense for certain aspects of language and certain kinds of analyses. Crucially, you have to have meaningful primitives to begin with. This line of thinking that an understanding of language and an understanding of the world is somehow going to emerge from mapping character spans onto a latent space and combining them with dot product attention is pretty half baked. These systems remain in Firth Mode™.
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
2009: Porter stemming with NLTK

2013: LDA with MALLET

2015: spaCy

2018: BERT

2023: GPT-4

2024: every person is an NLP expert in four lines of LangChain code
_t89y
·2 years ago·discuss
Thanks for your reply.

That's my first point. In 10 years we have word2vec, GloVe, GPT-2 and... tiktoken. lol. It's as if directional, numeric magnitudes in an embedding space of arbitrary dimensionality have magically captured or will magically capture the nuances and expressivity of language. Optimization techniques and new strategies for domain adaption are what matters, particularly for mobile devices, on-device ASR and short-form videos.

I don't think robust is a good characterization of clusters of semantic attributes in space or a distributional semantics of language. I'd say crude and without understanding are more accurate descriptions. Capturing semantic properties sometimes is not the same thing as having a semantics.

By targeted improvements you must be referring to domain adaptation and by the default option you must be referring to attention over BPE tokens? You can move directional quantities around in directional quantity space all day. If it results in expected behavior for your application that you weren't getting before that's great. If that's all you want to get out of these models then indeed there's nothing to do here. I'm not after improvements so much as I'm after something that works.