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azakai

7,908 karmajoined 16 years ago

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We Don't Understand Neural Networks at the Algorithmic Level

kripken.github.io
2 points·by azakai·18 days ago·0 comments

comments

azakai
·2 days ago·discuss
Or, Andrew was just not aware of Bun's fuzzing: the first fuzzing PR link given here is from November 2025, less than a year ago.
azakai
·5 days ago·discuss
They made a claim about language models in general, not just ones that had been released so far.

The point of the paper, in fact, is that language models are getting "too big", and another approach is needed to make progress, so they were certainly predicting things about later models.

With that said, they talked about "pure" language models, so it is fair to say that they didn't talk about, say, LLMs that are multimodal or that have tool use, which are advances that happened after their paper.
azakai
·5 days ago·discuss
My main criticism of the paper is that it says LLMs work "haphazardly", using probabilistic information. That is a hypothesis, but it is stated as a known fact, a fundamental limitation.

It is true that LLMs often behave haphazardly, and do rely on statistics. But plenty of research has shown them behaving in methodical ways too. There are findings going both ways!

Granted, many of the strongest contradictory results appeared after the Stochastic Parrots paper, so it isn't like they were ignoring the literature at the time. But they did make a very strong claim, and in the half-decade since, a lot of evidence has come out against it.
azakai
·10 days ago·discuss
Yes. Godot and Zig are the exceptions, and therefore newsworthy.
azakai
·29 days ago·discuss
> Let's keep WebAssembly lean and fast!

Note that wasm is still lean and fast - WASI is not part of core wasm, but layered on top.

That is, it is possible to implement wasm without WASI. That is also true for other wasm proposals like WasmGC. It is very possible that parts of the ecosystem will not implement certain proposals if they don't make sense there (e.g. parts of the embedded ecosystem may never add GC, etc.).
azakai
·last month·discuss
Not the person you are responding to, but here:

> I believe that artificial intelligence has three quarters to prove itself before the apocalypse comes, and when it does, it will be that much worse, savaging the revenues of the biggest companies in tech. Once usage drops, so will the remarkable amounts of revenue that have flowed into big tech, and so will acres of data centers sit unused, the cloud equivalent of the massive overhiring we saw in post-lockdown Silicon Valley.

We have seen 8 quarters since. Has any of that come to pass?
azakai
·last month·discuss
Exactly. Here is where this happens in the paper:

> Suppose one copies an LLM into AoE II and feeds into the AoE II-LLM ‘I feel lonely’ as an input. This AoE II-LLM replies: ‘I feel bad for you, maybe catch up with a friend? Closeness always helps in these situations’. One would be hard-pressed to make a convincing argument that, because of this response, an AoE II-LLM knows what helps in these situations

I don't see why one would be any more hard-pressed to make that conclusion about this system than a "normal" LLM.

That it is harder to "read" the data out is the only difference (the AoE II-LLM's output is encoded in game elements). But is ease of decoding an actual issue? If we can't understand a group of people that speak another language, does that say anything about them, or about us?
azakai
·last month·discuss
What about the cognitive capacity of understanding?
azakai
·last month·discuss
If you want examples of this, see the recent book "The AI Con"

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/217432753-the-ai-con

which describes LLMs as "souped-up autocomplete", complex statistics that cannot truly understand anything. A more recent example is this paper:

https://zenodo.org/records/20071869

which says,

> [LLMs], as turbo-charged statistical models (recall their formal relation to logistic regression) can only but provide correlations.

And, of course, the Stochastic Parrot paper is the classic example in this area. It is from 5 years ago, but "LLMs only do statistics / can't understand" is very much alive and active among academics, even if it is a minority position.
azakai
·2 months ago·discuss
There was a lot new in calculus, but it also didn't come out of nowhere.

That Newton and Leibniz came up with similar ideas in parallel, independently, around the same time (what are the odds?), supports that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz%E2%80%93Newton_calculu...
azakai
·2 months ago·discuss
Thanks! I missed that part before.
azakai
·2 months ago·discuss
I had the same question. I think that could be answered by using the predicted activation, but I don't see that in the paper.

That is, rather than just translate activation to text, then text to activation, that final activation could then be applied to the neural network, and it would be allowed to continue running from there.

If it kept running in a similar way, that would show that the predicted activation is close enough to the original one. Which would add some confidence here.

But a lot better would be to then do experiments with altered text. That is, if the text said "this is true" and it was changed to "this is false", and that intervention led to the final output implying it was false, that would be very interesting.

This seems obvious but I don't see it mentioned as a future direction there, so maybe there is an obvious reason it can't work.
azakai
·2 months ago·discuss
The hardware can also add nondeterminism. GPUs reorder operations, leading to different results.

Vendors might also be running A/B testing or who knows what, even when you ask for a temperature of 0.

But, if you run a fixed model with temperature 0 on your local CPU, it will be deterministic (unless there are bugs).
azakai
·2 months ago·discuss
A carb counting app might use API calls to these frontier models and then do some kind of analysis. It could see if different models agree or not, or multiple calls, and with how much variance.

So it would be more accurate to test the apps rather than the APIs, unless the goal is to warn people that just open chatgpt and ask there.
azakai
·2 months ago·discuss
fwiw, asking the model directly, "who is the ruler of England at present?" returns "Queen Victoria is the reigning sovereign of England."
azakai
·3 months ago·discuss
Another way to put it: if training a model cost 72,000 tons of carbon, and it then gets used by 100 million people (typical of major models), the cost per person is 0.00072 tons.

Per the article, the average human uses over 5 tons per year (Americans: 18). Adding 0.00072 to 5 is not really noticeable.

(There is also the cost of inference, of course.)
azakai
·3 months ago·discuss
It is academically interesting what pure neural networks can do, of course. But when someone goes to Claude and tries to do something, they don't care if it solves the problem using a neural network or a call out to Python. So long as the result is right.

More generally, the ability to use tools is a form of intelligence, just like when humans and crows do it. Being able to craft the right Python script and use the result is non-trivial.
azakai
·3 months ago·discuss
An "elaborate harness" that can break down a problem into sub-tasks, write Python scripts for the ones it can't solve itself, and then combine the results, seems able to solve a wide range of cognitive tasks?

At least in theory.
azakai
·3 months ago·discuss
You are trying it on a production model. The paper is using models with tool calls disabled.
azakai
·3 months ago·discuss
It has "outsourced" it to another component, sure, but does that matter?

What the user sees is the total behavior of the entire system, not whether the system has internal divisions and separations.