nuguy · HackerTrans

8 years agodiscuss

I never made one in the first place. I still don’t understand why it wasn’t immediately obvious to everyone else that Facebook was toxic and a bad idea. I truly don’t understand how other people did or recognize that. It was blindingly obvious to me.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

Everything in this comment is wrong. Forgive me for not addressing all of it.

The point about the layman is that the actual substance of my argument should be considered rather than my credentials. You think that your knowledge of ML (credentials) gives you the authority to win a debate without actually debating.

I have never called for a ban on the specific research that is currently ongoing in ML. I have called for a ban on all AI research — not because it’s easy or makes a lot of sense but because it seems to be the only solution. I am receptive to new solutions, the absence of which is quite conspicuous in your comments. You are stuck on credentials and nit-picking.

“So according to you, ML is tangential so therefore listen to you”

I literally spelled this out for you in my comment. Are you blind? The fact that ML is not a direct path to AGI is just an asside. Perhaps I should have focused exclusively on your main error so as to not confuse you. Like I said, the impact of AI on the world is an economics question in essence. You don’t need to know anything about how an AGI might work to reason about the economic, strategic, and existential changes that AI as a concept will bring about. It is absolutely true that no amount of knowledge about ML or even AGI will help in any way with that line of inquiry.

“We haven’t made robot rats yet”

This just a permutation of people saying AGI is far off. You don’t appear to be in the camp that thinks AGI is impossible. Therefore this comment is irrelevant because it will come at some point and my argument is primarily about what that will look like, not when it will happen.

It should, by now, be thoroughly clear to anyone who stumbles upon this thread in the future that I am correct. If you want to continue, you can contact me at brian.pat.mahoney - gmail.com

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

Having a sense of humor is such a nice thing. Can’t I poke a little fun? Cheers man

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

I’m going to love watching liberal people try to figure out how this is bad

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

That’s a really good point.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

the answers to your questions are

1: I never said recent advancements are directly leading to AGI. Not in ML.

2: I don’t hold any contradictory ideas in my head

Your comment is aggressive and unpleasant which is an offense that should get you flagged. I constantly get flagged for making comments like yours because I happen to have an unpopular opinion. I can’t believe I put up with all this for YOUR benefit. Do you think I derive pleasure from trying to make people like you see things clearly?

As I have said so many fucking times, a layman is just as qualified as a ML expert to talk about the impact of AI on the world. Just because someone is an expert in a field that is tangentially related to AGI doesn’t mean a god damn thing. This is not a discussion about modern ML. But just to make it super easy for you to understand, let me put it this way: even if someone here were an expert in every detail of the theory and practical aspects of implementing an AGI, that person still doesn’t know any more than a layman about the consequences of AI. The point that you so annoyingly cling to is like a car mechanic thinking he was the ultimate authority on how cars would impact the world. You don’t have to be a car mechanic to understand and reason about the concept of transportation. Ultimately, the most qualified person to talk about that is an economist or someone. Not you. You don’t have a deeper understanding of the concept of AGI than literally anyone.

It is to the benefit of humanity that you observe the deep, fundamental changes that AGI will cause in the basic economics of human life. Dismissing it as “too far off” or “alarmist nonsense” is irresponsible.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

Where in the logic of my argument have I made a mistake?

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

So ai is not a problem in your eyes?

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

So sarcasm is what will save us all?

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

You are an outlier. Even Hassabis and Hinton believe that agi is inevitable. I’ve never met anyone who thought otherwise. The only disagreement is about the timescale and the result of its existence. If nothing I’ve said can convince you that ai is possible, then i would just ask you to consider that the human brain exists and that we will eventually figure out how it works.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

I never said anything about your religious beliefs, only that your need for hard proof one way or the other is similar to the need displayed by people who want to believe in god and who dont want to believe in global warming. there are many such examples but the bottom line is that demanding me to show you a sentient computer right now is not reasonable. We have the ability to reason about things without developing formal, mathematic proof about it. And in this case, there is no possibility that anyone could ever prove that AI is possible or impossible. Nobody can prove what it will do. If accept nothing less than hard proof then you are opting out of survival in basically any situation whatsoever. Sometimes logical reasoning is all you have and this is a case of that.

Yeah and before the measurements were done, before enough time had elapsed for meaningful change to be measured, all there was was people like me screaming at people like you, trying to make you see. When ai comes you’ll have your proof but it will be too late.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

Yes, the grandfather of deep learning. This is exactly my point. All the modern advancements in ai have nothing to do with agi.

And by the way I happen to know about both of the subjects of the article.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

Fantastic

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

I don’t remember insulting anyone. And how is that not true?

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

I appreciate that you actually suggest a solution. Nobody knows when AGI will come but it could come tomorrow. It could come in 1000 years. No harm in being proactive.

Developing a good ai first is useless because as I have said, the creation of ai enters us into an unstable configuration where bad ai will crop up regardless. Keeping bad ai from existing is infinitely easier when ai does not exist as a technology as opposed to when it’s a turnkey thing.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

We can survive global warming. We can fix it. We can come back from it. We will never come back from ai. It’s not impossible to ban ai. And we would be stupid to assume it’s impossible instead of trying to find out through an effort to save ourselves.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

You don’t even begin to comprehend what I’m saying. You need to think about this more deeply.

So what if it is possible to create a benevolent ai? Nobody said this isn’t possible or even likely. We can also invent a machine that scrubs all the moss off of stones. Just because it’s possible for it to exist doesn’t mean it’s going to proliferate in the free-market of the world and everything in it. The only thing that is important is the fact that

1: we will enter an unstable configuration where any AI implementation that can exist will exist

2: the AI implementations that proliferate will be those that are not hamstrung by being forced to include humans in the loop

3: humans will be out of the loop for every conceivable task and therefore not enjoy the high standard of living that they do in 2018

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

Even anti-alarmists don’t ask for proof that AGI is possible. Obviously it is possible. Speculation is the best you get because nobody is going to be able to prove anything. We haven’t proven global warming is caused by humans but it’s still worth it to be proactive about greenhouse gasses. This is because when something is extremely dangerous, you don’t wait around for someone to finish proving it beyond any shadow of a doubt. You probably also think that god exists because nobody can prove otherwise?

And what does alarmist even mean? Do you call global warming advocates alarmists? It’s such an annoying, nonsense word that boils down to name-calling really. Discuss the merits of my actual argument. If you think my speculation is wrong, point out a flaw in the chain of logic that leads to my conclusion. Don’t just wave your hand and say that “you can’t prove it” like some evangelical christian talking about god or global warming. Seriously infuriating when there is so much at stake.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

I take huge offense to this article. They claim that when it comes to AGI, Hinton and Hassabis “know what they are talking about.” Nothing could be further from the truth. These are people who have narrow expertise in one framework of AI. AGI does not yet exist so they are not experts in it, in how long it will be, or how it will work. A layman is just as qualified to speculate about AGI as these people so I find it to be infinitely frustrating when condescending journalists talk down to the concerned layman. This irritates me because AI is a death scentance for humanity — its an incredibly serious problem.

As I have stated before, AI is the end for us. To put it simply, AI brings the world into a highly unstable configuration where the only likely outcome is the relegation of humans and their way of life. This is because of the fundamental changes imposed on the economics of life by the existence of AI.

Many people say that automation leads to new jobs, not a loss of jobs. Automation has never encroached on the sacred territory of sentience. It is a totally different ball game. It is stupid to compare the automation of a traffic light to that of the brain itself. It is a new phenomenon completely and requires a new, from-the-ground-up assessment. Reaching for the cookie-cutter “automation creates new jobs” simply doesn’t cut it.

The fact of the matter is that even if most of the world is able to harness AI to benefit our current way of life, at least one country won’t. And the country that increases efficiency by displacing human input will win every encounter of every kind that it has with any other country. And the pattern of human displacement will ratchet forward uncontrollably, spreading across the whole face of the earth like a virus. And when humans are no longer necessary they will no longer exist. Not in the way they do now. It’s so important to remember that this is a watershed moment — humans have never dealt with anything like this.

AI could come about tomorrow. The core algorithm for intelligence is probably a lot simpler than is thought. The computing power needed to develop and run AI is probably much lower than it is thought to to be. Just because DNNs are not good at this does not mean that something else won’t come out of left field, either from neurological research or pure AI research.

And as I have said before, the only way to ensure that human life continues as we know it is for AI to be banned. For all research and inquires to be made illegal. Some point out that this is difficult to do but like I said, there is no other way. I implore everyone who reads this to become involved in popular efforts to address the problem of AI.

nuguy

8 years agodiscuss

Wow I had not actually thought of that. Hosting that service would cost money, unlike releasing keys on pastebin, and any attempt to do something like this, especially if monetized, would meet considerable retaliation from Blu-ray people. So I guess that’s why you don’t see it.

Getting keys from your hardware is a hassle and I didn’t want to wait for a decryption solution later.