Ask HN: What is your strongest argument against remote work?
please, I need to know!
127 comments
I absolutely think you lose something from lack of face-to-face contact. Some of the most productive leadership and decison-making sessions I've had came from sitting around a table or sharing a meal or a drink with a team, and going back and forth about something.
Additionally, casual contact helps too. I put a couch in my office, and people would come just sit down and talk. The setting set the vibe. I had some great conversations with people just kicking back that I would have never otherwise had.
I absolutely realize people will disagree, but this is my experience.
Additionally, casual contact helps too. I put a couch in my office, and people would come just sit down and talk. The setting set the vibe. I had some great conversations with people just kicking back that I would have never otherwise had.
I absolutely realize people will disagree, but this is my experience.
I don't think people necessarily disagree, but I also think that the benefits of that are limited by human biases and tendencies toward clique-ish behaviors, and that hurts both the people who inevitably get left out of those events and the broader company, because the opportunities for unpredictable synergies are limited by those biases/cliques.
I don't see how it's possible to reasonably disagree with that. You obviously lose something. You also obviously gain in other ways. Whether it's worth it is another (important) question.
And I say this as someone who thinks it is worth it - for me personally, at least - having been working remotely for a about a year now.
And I say this as someone who thinks it is worth it - for me personally, at least - having been working remotely for a about a year now.
> I put a couch in my office, and people would come just sit down and talk.
Yep, if I had an office with a door that closed, big enough for a couch, I would also enjoy working in an office.
Yep, if I had an office with a door that closed, big enough for a couch, I would also enjoy working in an office.
Well of course you like it, you are lucky enough to have an office. If everyone had that or least not open office bull pens then I could also see the appeal.
as someone who's been remote for 10+ years: both (the value of casual conversation and higher face-to-face productivity) ring true to me.
If you want to have a remote team I advice having a space for casual conversation and non-work video calls, it improves things a bit for the first.
For the latter, IRL gatherings/meetups are valuable but obviously not something you can do all the time.
If you want to have a remote team I advice having a space for casual conversation and non-work video calls, it improves things a bit for the first.
For the latter, IRL gatherings/meetups are valuable but obviously not something you can do all the time.
Absolutely - we have a dedicated "water cooler" channel, and as a lead I try to ensure people feel comfortable going "off topic" during small group meetings.
It fails with respect to growing junior team members. It’s impossible for junior team members to observe the day-to-day patterns, habits and general implicit knowledge of senior team members that they would pick up (mostly not consciously) in an office simply through observation.
Like most things related to remote work, you just have to be more formal in the the approach. Our team has successfully developed several cohorts of college hires remotely. You have to give them consistent (daily, for hours) access to mentoring/senior resources via scheduled time, keep design or other higher level meetings public and make sure the juniors know they are invited to attend, and make clear to the junior devs that they are a priority so they can feel free to ping anyone on the team whenever they need help, plus make clear to the rest of the team that helping the junior devs is a priority.
Keeping an eye in the jrs work item completion rate and eliciting if there is a problem when it slows down also helps
Keeping an eye in the jrs work item completion rate and eliciting if there is a problem when it slows down also helps
Where do you work and are you hiring?
Microsoft, in consulting services, yes.
https://careers.microsoft.com/students/us/en/microsoft-aspir...
https://careers.microsoft.com/students/us/en/job/795772/Full...
Unfortunately it looks like we are back to requiring college hires to colocate for a year, even if their day to day teams are remote/distribute. Industry hires can live anywhere. Travel can be up to 100% depending on the project (although not right now.)
Microsoft is a huge company and not all (or even most) teams are as good at remote work as my team is, but the company as a whole is serious about the inclusive behaviors the underly my teams culture
https://careers.microsoft.com/students/us/en/microsoft-aspir...
https://careers.microsoft.com/students/us/en/job/795772/Full...
Unfortunately it looks like we are back to requiring college hires to colocate for a year, even if their day to day teams are remote/distribute. Industry hires can live anywhere. Travel can be up to 100% depending on the project (although not right now.)
Microsoft is a huge company and not all (or even most) teams are as good at remote work as my team is, but the company as a whole is serious about the inclusive behaviors the underly my teams culture
What about jobs for non students who are self taught and working in another industry but have experience with JavaScript?
There are large number of self taught people in my area of the company (services). Experience in another industry is plus- we are the people who directly help customers build on top of Microsoft’s products.
The biggest thing we (my division) look for in industry hires is an ability to interact with customers and master new skills quickly. On the technical angle, we do want to see knowledge beyond just on area of development (full-stack to cloud, o365 integration, sys admin experience, analytics work, etc...). Direct knowledge of the MS stack helps, but we hire plenty of people who know AWS and them teach them Azure (for example).
In terms of setting yourself up to get hired, I recommend trying to start a product/business. I’ve done three side companies/projects over the years, all done on nights and weekends, all of which never really did anything. I wasn’t very committed to them, they didn’t take up THAT much time, never really cost money (never had payroll, biggest expenses was a small factory order of light up dog collars at one), and I expected them to fail, but I learned a ton of new stuff to make the MVP and business systems happen.
The biggest thing we (my division) look for in industry hires is an ability to interact with customers and master new skills quickly. On the technical angle, we do want to see knowledge beyond just on area of development (full-stack to cloud, o365 integration, sys admin experience, analytics work, etc...). Direct knowledge of the MS stack helps, but we hire plenty of people who know AWS and them teach them Azure (for example).
In terms of setting yourself up to get hired, I recommend trying to start a product/business. I’ve done three side companies/projects over the years, all done on nights and weekends, all of which never really did anything. I wasn’t very committed to them, they didn’t take up THAT much time, never really cost money (never had payroll, biggest expenses was a small factory order of light up dog collars at one), and I expected them to fail, but I learned a ton of new stuff to make the MVP and business systems happen.
Do you think this might be solved by more screensharing and/or pair programming together with experienced devs?
There is so much you learn from others by implicit body language. For example, the junior learns from the senior's "your work today was okay" body language vs "your work today was goo" body language. The senior can't always verbalize these thoughts, because the words often can have outsized and unwanted impact on people that body language does not.
> "your work today was goo" body language
While this is an unfortunate typo, imagining this body language makes for a great visual.
While this is an unfortunate typo, imagining this body language makes for a great visual.
>> It’s impossible for junior team members to observe the day-to-day patterns
Those day-to-day patterns are changing though. There are many young people working on team projects, pursuing their interests while remotely located and never meeting their collaborators, Discord enables many of these communities so that stands a chance of becoming the new normal.
Those day-to-day patterns are changing though. There are many young people working on team projects, pursuing their interests while remotely located and never meeting their collaborators, Discord enables many of these communities so that stands a chance of becoming the new normal.
In my experience with very early stage teams, a lot of creativity and innovation occurs as a byproduct of spending a large amount of time together in close quarters discussing a range of topics (work related and not.) I’ve managed remote teams as well and while there are ways to replicate certain aspects of this dynamic, overall it’s much more difficult.
Agreed. But as soon as a company gets mature creativity and innovation get killed. If anything, I feel that in larger companies remote people have a better chance to be creative because they don't have to go through the whole meeting circus. My team is onsite with the exception of me another guy. I feel we have the chance to fly under the radar and do stuff whereas the in-office people immediately get sucked into tons of meetings where ideas go to die.
I have some experience with this having been part of Precision Nutrition for seven years and counting. We wrote the platform as a remote team, and DID find it very helpful to have a series of important brainstorming sessions in person. At the time we did this the state of the art for video conference tech was pretty lousy. These days we're 100% remote except for a few in person meetings throughout the years -- the vast majority of which are entirely social in nature.
And a lot of creativity also gets lost (stifled) mostly after a week to a month of the team working in close quarters. Not that it does not occur in remote teams, but remote makes non-verbal communication much harder for the loud-mouths or bullies or whatever kind of suppressor disguised as a leader that can exist in a team.
Wow, so many people here want to date their coworkers. There are other places to meet women than the office. In fact it is probably better that you meet someone not in your office.
Managers are going to be PRO office work because without a venue for all manner of office politics, their effectiveness is diminished, particularly in age-identity politics. They will say something like "we are unable to foster a community of communal idea sharing and mentorship of younger employees." What they want is to use their new hires who are going to be college age to ostracize and push out more experienced workers they want to replace. The whole kumbaya campfire thing does not work if no one can see what the other looks like or if they are in their peer group or not.
Managers are going to be PRO office work because without a venue for all manner of office politics, their effectiveness is diminished, particularly in age-identity politics. They will say something like "we are unable to foster a community of communal idea sharing and mentorship of younger employees." What they want is to use their new hires who are going to be college age to ostracize and push out more experienced workers they want to replace. The whole kumbaya campfire thing does not work if no one can see what the other looks like or if they are in their peer group or not.
Assuming the work _can_ be done remotely:
- Connections with people are easier in person.
- Getting unblocked by talking to someone is easier in person.
- Collaborating with materials is easier in person (shared whiteboard, post it notes, no delay in comms)
- Meetings are easier in person as video conferences can have audio delays, people talking over each other, etc. No worries about people leaving their mic on while blending a smoothy or other tech issues.
- In a meeting, it is easier to keep distractions low when on site (everyone close your laptops and leave your phones in your pocket is easier at a location).
- Work socializing is waaaay harder when working remotely.
I say all these as a full time remote person before this whole COVID thing. That said, each of the arguments above are able to be mitigated and can we can learn cope with them.
- Connections with people are easier in person.
- Getting unblocked by talking to someone is easier in person.
- Collaborating with materials is easier in person (shared whiteboard, post it notes, no delay in comms)
- Meetings are easier in person as video conferences can have audio delays, people talking over each other, etc. No worries about people leaving their mic on while blending a smoothy or other tech issues.
- In a meeting, it is easier to keep distractions low when on site (everyone close your laptops and leave your phones in your pocket is easier at a location).
- Work socializing is waaaay harder when working remotely.
I say all these as a full time remote person before this whole COVID thing. That said, each of the arguments above are able to be mitigated and can we can learn cope with them.
I've been full time remote for several years. What I've found is that it can ever so slightly erode some people's ability to communicate clearly with each other, or be sure that they have. This leads to meetings that go on longer as people feel a need to restate and reconfirm, code reviews that go on a bit longer, some duplicated effort as people look over each others' shoulder to make sure they "got the message", and so on. Nothing major, but it kind of builds up. A little small talk can go a long way toward rebuilding that confidence, and it's harder to do when latency and VC annoyances are in the way. I've seen this play out many times even on long-term fully-remote teams BTW. Getting together at conferences or "summits" is often the glue holding them together.
I know that's still not a strong argument against remote work. It's pretty weak, but it's the best I can do. Overall, I think remote work is at least as good as in-person work for many people.
I know that's still not a strong argument against remote work. It's pretty weak, but it's the best I can do. Overall, I think remote work is at least as good as in-person work for many people.
I've experienced very similar things. Thanks for stating this so well.
The most annoying thing I've run into while working remote is that whenever I have an unproductive day due to random interruptions or little things that aren't tracked in JIRA, to my boss it just looks like I haven't been working all day.
But when I was at the office, sitting in my chair, he could see that I was working hard even if the stories weren't getting completed.
I haven't figured out how to solve this, other than by spending a lot more time and effort documenting the numerous little things that cause distractions and exposing that in my daily status updates. I can tell that it's still not as convincing to him though.
So I often end up finding myself working late in the evenings just to finish the actual work that was scheduled to be done that day, even though I've already spent 8 hours dealing with random issues and helping other team mates with things.
I need to find a solution soon before I completely burn out.
But when I was at the office, sitting in my chair, he could see that I was working hard even if the stories weren't getting completed.
I haven't figured out how to solve this, other than by spending a lot more time and effort documenting the numerous little things that cause distractions and exposing that in my daily status updates. I can tell that it's still not as convincing to him though.
So I often end up finding myself working late in the evenings just to finish the actual work that was scheduled to be done that day, even though I've already spent 8 hours dealing with random issues and helping other team mates with things.
I need to find a solution soon before I completely burn out.
Unless your boss has no idea how software is built, I would argue that this is mostly about how you feel it looks. I combat this by giving a short list during the daily of things I encountered yesterday, thing I’ve tried but didn’t work and sometimes I ask what should I do (drop a part of a feature or get someone’s help) if the thing is due soon.
Generally, this is the kind of issue that should be discussed during 1:1 and retro in order to curb the anxiety. And if the boss is a complete tool then looking for jobs or switching to a stoic attitude are in order.
Have you considered a tool like Manictime?
It keeps track of what's on screen and you can tag stretches of time.
Taking a screenshot of timeline plus summary is an easy way to say 'look how long I was working' and implies you have data to respond to a challenge regarding what you were working on.
Link: https://www.manictime.com/
It keeps track of what's on screen and you can tag stretches of time.
Taking a screenshot of timeline plus summary is an easy way to say 'look how long I was working' and implies you have data to respond to a challenge regarding what you were working on.
Link: https://www.manictime.com/
I write a worklog. Every day has an entry with what i've done on the day, including learning/decisions.
What is not captured on a ticket it's still going to appear in there.
Could this be helpful?
What is not captured on a ticket it's still going to appear in there.
Could this be helpful?
That's essentially what I've been doing, and I've been posting it in our daily status slack channel. I need to do a better job of adding more details, but it's a balancing act between spending time on logging work vs doing work, plus if I'm the only person on the team doing it, it looks weird.
I have a public (within the company) github repo called "worklog" where everyone can put theirs (it's by name), one file per year.
I usually have 4-5 lines per day, where some days have 15 (rare, but there are those big days).
I don't give the report in slack, since github has track of when stuff was committed (I commit at the end of the day), if people need it, it's on github.
It's great for standups, because I usually forget what I did yesterday. It's also great for some company tax reductions, so it's appreciated!
Last but not least, I capture breakthrougs and decisions in there, as well as learning, so I can refer to it various months later and tell people exactly what I was doing a certain date.
At some point people asked "why this wasn't already done, what were you doing in August last year"... And I was able to clearly explain what I was doing in August and why things were not prioritized.
Overall, great win!
Just to clarify, I didn't come up with this idea myself, it was suggested to me on the Eventide Slack https://eventide-project.org/#community-section Apparently it's a common practice in engineering (should be in software engineering too!), I currently follow this log structure: https://github.com/eventide-project/project-status/blob/mast...
I usually have 4-5 lines per day, where some days have 15 (rare, but there are those big days).
I don't give the report in slack, since github has track of when stuff was committed (I commit at the end of the day), if people need it, it's on github.
It's great for standups, because I usually forget what I did yesterday. It's also great for some company tax reductions, so it's appreciated!
Last but not least, I capture breakthrougs and decisions in there, as well as learning, so I can refer to it various months later and tell people exactly what I was doing a certain date.
At some point people asked "why this wasn't already done, what were you doing in August last year"... And I was able to clearly explain what I was doing in August and why things were not prioritized.
Overall, great win!
Just to clarify, I didn't come up with this idea myself, it was suggested to me on the Eventide Slack https://eventide-project.org/#community-section Apparently it's a common practice in engineering (should be in software engineering too!), I currently follow this log structure: https://github.com/eventide-project/project-status/blob/mast...
> It's also great for some company tax reductions, so it's appreciated!
Can you explain what you mean by company tax reductions? I'm confused how that relates with keeping a worklog.
Can you explain what you mean by company tax reductions? I'm confused how that relates with keeping a worklog.
Specific to Canada, there is a tax reduction thing for the company of this size (the one I work at), that has some specific requirements related to experimenting and tracking time spent on various activities. It can be summarized per day though, this means that I just have to turn in my work-log for this purpose, with no additional effort
The strongest argument against remote work (generally speaking, not specific to the current coronavirus) is that a company is not disciplined enough to communicate well, especially across teams. This may be the case if a significant number of business decisions are done in side conversations. You probably need some tooling such as a chat app, video conferencing software etc and a process where important business decisions are written down and communicated.
There's also a case where some jobs need to be done in-person. A good example is a restocker for a grocery store. You can't move boxes remotely. Similarly a surgeon can't do a surgery remotely.
There's also a case where some jobs need to be done in-person. A good example is a restocker for a grocery store. You can't move boxes remotely. Similarly a surgeon can't do a surgery remotely.
> This may be the case if a significant number of business decisions are done in side conversations. You probably need some tooling such as a chat app, video conferencing software etc and a process where important business decisions are written down and communicated.
Also, don't forget that there's a lot people naturally discuss in those side-conversations that they really don't want to have "on the record" or "discoverable" in the legal sense. The moment someone tells you that lawyers might scrutinize everything you discuss, you become far more hesitant to have open conversations.
Of course that's why many business types quickly transition from Email to "call me", but that's less likely to happen with tech types and more casual topics.
Also, don't forget that there's a lot people naturally discuss in those side-conversations that they really don't want to have "on the record" or "discoverable" in the legal sense. The moment someone tells you that lawyers might scrutinize everything you discuss, you become far more hesitant to have open conversations.
Of course that's why many business types quickly transition from Email to "call me", but that's less likely to happen with tech types and more casual topics.
> You can't move boxes remotely.
You just made me envision a robot warehouse where humans drive the forklifts remotely to move items around.
You just made me envision a robot warehouse where humans drive the forklifts remotely to move items around.
... while simultaneously building a training dataset for the AI that will replace them.
> a company is not disciplined enough to communicate well, especially across teams. This may be the case if a significant number of business decisions are done in side conversations
this is a very very good point! but I don't think that being remote or not make this communication problem worse or not.
this is a very very good point! but I don't think that being remote or not make this communication problem worse or not.
It typically does. Most people are used to communicating in-person, often by chatting in casual interactions. Once you go remote, especially on a distributed team, individuals who are used to chatting in-person often don't have the discipline to send messages out to every member of a team. They typically also don't do multiple notifications (for example my company cross-posts announcements in both Slack and via email).
I solve this by keeping a running log of the important things I worked on that day and any questions I'm researching and sending it to my whole team.
A lot of people like it, learn from it, and also provide me with advice when they happen to know something I do not.
A lot of people like it, learn from it, and also provide me with advice when they happen to know something I do not.
It doesn't fundamentally or categorically make it worse, it just increases the importance of the communication discipline. So, if the discipline is lacking or slips temporarily, then you're more likely to pay the cost for that than with in-person work. I agree it doesn't exacerbate the amount or lack of communication, it just increases the dependency on good communication.
Hiring is more difficult. It's not that you can't find applicants, but the people capable of performing without direct supervision is (mostly) a subset of those capable of performing in an office. It can be difficult to identify those who will actually perform well in that environment. It takes some degree of maturity and responsibility to provide value as a remote worker because there's always that temptation to do something else.
That said, I wouldn't trade this lifestyle for anything. The only complaint I've ever had is that coworkers not capable of performing in a remote environment sometimes last too long at the company.
That said, I wouldn't trade this lifestyle for anything. The only complaint I've ever had is that coworkers not capable of performing in a remote environment sometimes last too long at the company.
> Hiring is more difficult. It's not that you can't find applicants, but the people capable of performing without direct supervision is (mostly) a subset of those capable of performing in an office.
OTOH, your applicant pool is limited only to the time zones and legal jurisdictions you're willing to hire from. If you're office-based, it's limited to those who can reasonably commute there.
OTOH, your applicant pool is limited only to the time zones and legal jurisdictions you're willing to hire from. If you're office-based, it's limited to those who can reasonably commute there.
The other side of this is that managers need to be more mature too. There's a fairly significant difference between communicating asynchronously. If you can figure it out, it'll actually increase the company's overall productivity because it'll reduce interruptions.
A great way to approach this is to build trust incrementally. Small projects where responsibility is given to individuals to own work end to end with reviews and feedback. After a few iterations, everyone will get used to it.
A great way to approach this is to build trust incrementally. Small projects where responsibility is given to individuals to own work end to end with reviews and feedback. After a few iterations, everyone will get used to it.
> A great way to approach this is to build trust incrementally. Small projects where responsibility is given to individuals to own work end to end with reviews and feedback. After a few iterations, everyone will get used to it.
Thank you very much for providing a useful practical advice!
Thank you very much for providing a useful practical advice!
I meant to say, "There's a fairly significant difference between communicating as needed in the office, and asynchronously when we're remote".
Rural Broadband.
I will be taking part in a county task force meeting on Tuesday where we'll be looking at applying for grant money as well as looking at doing more problem solving. This still holds us back in 2020 and really shouldn't.
I will be taking part in a county task force meeting on Tuesday where we'll be looking at applying for grant money as well as looking at doing more problem solving. This still holds us back in 2020 and really shouldn't.
Remote work could be perfect for individual contributors, but it's still full of challenges for people who work on teams.
There's been a lot of buzz lately about remote work. I have been working remotely since 2012; the challenges of remote work are not new to me. I work with 30+ people, and our clients are in different timezones. Our team includes full-stack developers, designers, product leads, and other support staff.
First Challenge: Schedule of work hours or team availability. Back in 2012, each member of our team started working from our respective homes. We started with seven team members; it's a small team. Initially, people are productive while we work as individual contributors. However, efficiency and productivity dropped very low when we started to work on the same project because everyone has the flexibility to choose when they want to work as long as they complete the required hours per week. We partially solved this by setting standard work hours that everyone in the team will follow.
Second Challenge: Quality of work is affected by many factors. Working alone remotely is initially fun, but eventually, employees feel lonely. Keeping focus at work is also hard due to distractions, like games, social media, house-related errands, etc. Monitoring employees' honesty on work hours and work done is also a challenge. Since our team mostly live in the same town, we decided to work in the same place. We converted my whole dorm into an office, removed the walls, joint the rooms, and made it look like a real office. Centralizing our distributed team to work in the same place doubled or tripled our team's efficiency and productivity. You can imagine how it made it easier to do daily standups, do design planning, pair programming, code reviews, etc. Employees became happier, and the bond between got stronger; we also eat meals together, we go on retreats, we play games together, our employee retention rate is 90% since we started. Over the years of working remotely, we have also built a tool that we use internally to manage and monitor employees and projects.
Now with the Corona Virus, our team is back temporarily in working from home, and most of us can't wait to start working together in the office again.
There's been a lot of buzz lately about remote work. I have been working remotely since 2012; the challenges of remote work are not new to me. I work with 30+ people, and our clients are in different timezones. Our team includes full-stack developers, designers, product leads, and other support staff.
First Challenge: Schedule of work hours or team availability. Back in 2012, each member of our team started working from our respective homes. We started with seven team members; it's a small team. Initially, people are productive while we work as individual contributors. However, efficiency and productivity dropped very low when we started to work on the same project because everyone has the flexibility to choose when they want to work as long as they complete the required hours per week. We partially solved this by setting standard work hours that everyone in the team will follow.
Second Challenge: Quality of work is affected by many factors. Working alone remotely is initially fun, but eventually, employees feel lonely. Keeping focus at work is also hard due to distractions, like games, social media, house-related errands, etc. Monitoring employees' honesty on work hours and work done is also a challenge. Since our team mostly live in the same town, we decided to work in the same place. We converted my whole dorm into an office, removed the walls, joint the rooms, and made it look like a real office. Centralizing our distributed team to work in the same place doubled or tripled our team's efficiency and productivity. You can imagine how it made it easier to do daily standups, do design planning, pair programming, code reviews, etc. Employees became happier, and the bond between got stronger; we also eat meals together, we go on retreats, we play games together, our employee retention rate is 90% since we started. Over the years of working remotely, we have also built a tool that we use internally to manage and monitor employees and projects.
Now with the Corona Virus, our team is back temporarily in working from home, and most of us can't wait to start working together in the office again.
I did not expect this post to end with ditching remote work.
As we work with our clients from the US, we also work closely with their employees - that part still gives the feeling of remote work for us. Most of our team members or employees live 10 to 40 minutes' drive away from each other, so it makes sense to make the change and work in the same place. We have three people who live far away, so they still work remotely with us, but we mostly put them on projects that do not require much team collaboration.
I've been working remote for better part of a year. It works well as long as your team has good systems in place. However, you do miss out on deeper relationships with your coworkers if you start remote. People try to counter this with on-sites, but still, it's not quite the same. Water cooler conversations don't happen as often and though you would think that doesn't matter, it does. There's less serendipity. I have less random interactions with people who are not on my precise team.
All that being said, I think remote is here to stay.
All that being said, I think remote is here to stay.
Just like a traditional office setting, remote work isn't for everyone. At our company I've seen that it is particularly difficult for:
- extroverts
- some of our more junior engineers
- workers with families
I think having a good mix of traditional, partially-remote, and fully-remote businesses is the place to be.
- extroverts
- some of our more junior engineers
- workers with families
I think having a good mix of traditional, partially-remote, and fully-remote businesses is the place to be.
I suspect loneliness/isolation is the biggest issue for most.
At the moment it's great because I'm at home with three housemates/friends. But I think I'd get lonely pretty quickly if it was just me. Co-working spaces might solve this a bit (never worked in one so don't know how much people socialise).
At the moment it's great because I'm at home with three housemates/friends. But I think I'd get lonely pretty quickly if it was just me. Co-working spaces might solve this a bit (never worked in one so don't know how much people socialise).
That is what I thought a the beginning, I am very social and I will talk/listen to anyone on the street, but yet it works very well for me and I don't really feel lonely. Sometimes I even have to close slack because it is too distracting :) Also we are all a better version of ourselves when we do email, that is because we can put more brain time in what we are going to say. Working remotely gets two big thumbs up for me!
After years of working remotely, my only argument against remote work is that it requires that your direct team members also be working in the same manner to be most effective. It's all or nothing if you want it to work long-term.
Whenever you have a case where some team members work in an office together, and others work remotely - it creates undue stress on personal relationships. Even if your team makes a great effort to be inclusive, there will always be times (lunches especially) where important conversations will happen in-person, and the remote person will be left out. In the worst case scenario, it can lead to being intentionally left out of even important technical conversations (Example: I had a remote coworker on a sibling team who scheduled a meeting about a technical architecture issue he wanted to have input on. The in-person team didn't show up to the call, but then had the meeting in person without him and told him the outcome of the decision.) The remote workers will end up feeling hobbled from a relationship building standpoint - and their growth opportunities will feel limited.
Those issues can be easily avoided by keeping teams either all-remote, or all-in-person. When you are in an all-remote team, everyone is on the same level communication-wise. So you'll see real effort go into using slack and other tools to build up comaraderie. With a mixed setup, that effort is usually asymmetric - causing the remote workers to bond and develop trust with other remote workers, but not with the in-person teams.
Whenever you have a case where some team members work in an office together, and others work remotely - it creates undue stress on personal relationships. Even if your team makes a great effort to be inclusive, there will always be times (lunches especially) where important conversations will happen in-person, and the remote person will be left out. In the worst case scenario, it can lead to being intentionally left out of even important technical conversations (Example: I had a remote coworker on a sibling team who scheduled a meeting about a technical architecture issue he wanted to have input on. The in-person team didn't show up to the call, but then had the meeting in person without him and told him the outcome of the decision.) The remote workers will end up feeling hobbled from a relationship building standpoint - and their growth opportunities will feel limited.
Those issues can be easily avoided by keeping teams either all-remote, or all-in-person. When you are in an all-remote team, everyone is on the same level communication-wise. So you'll see real effort go into using slack and other tools to build up comaraderie. With a mixed setup, that effort is usually asymmetric - causing the remote workers to bond and develop trust with other remote workers, but not with the in-person teams.
Pros
- Depending on at-home situation, you may be able to focus on work more
- Time flexibility. You have the luxury of doing errands / tasks at home
Cons
- Difficult to build deeper connections with co-workers. Unless there are other processes in place, I've noticed that communication becomes increasingly work-related and less about just catching up
- Accessibility to distractions. It's easier to get distracted when you have access to TV, books, video games, etc...
- Separation of work and leisure time. Physically leaving the office used to be a forcing function to stop working. Now, it can be easy to just keep working.
- Collaboration becomes more difficult. Your coworker may have stepped away from their desk and you're kind of left hanging until they get back.
- Depending on at-home situation, you may be able to focus on work more
- Time flexibility. You have the luxury of doing errands / tasks at home
Cons
- Difficult to build deeper connections with co-workers. Unless there are other processes in place, I've noticed that communication becomes increasingly work-related and less about just catching up
- Accessibility to distractions. It's easier to get distracted when you have access to TV, books, video games, etc...
- Separation of work and leisure time. Physically leaving the office used to be a forcing function to stop working. Now, it can be easy to just keep working.
- Collaboration becomes more difficult. Your coworker may have stepped away from their desk and you're kind of left hanging until they get back.
I work from home and am a big advocate of doing so.
One thing I find difficult in remote teams is the ability to ask a coworker a question quickly. There can be a fair amount of lag time over messenger and this occasionally blocks the completion of work.
One thing I find difficult in remote teams is the ability to ask a coworker a question quickly. There can be a fair amount of lag time over messenger and this occasionally blocks the completion of work.
> There can be a fair amount of lag time over messenger and this occasionally blocks the completion of work.
Agreed. But the reverse is also true: it's harder for people to interrupt you.
Agreed. But the reverse is also true: it's harder for people to interrupt you.
I have been working from home for nearly 8 years now with a very small team (2-3 other people over the years max, mainly just with 1 other).
We have been using VSee to keep a constant video/audio feed going. We both have microphones which are muted, and if we need to ask a question we just press unmute and talk away.
For smaller teams that need to communicate a lot, I think something like this is the best setup because like you said, it's not a lag from a messenger.. having to make a new phone call etc if you just want to ask a simple question.
We have been using VSee to keep a constant video/audio feed going. We both have microphones which are muted, and if we need to ask a question we just press unmute and talk away.
For smaller teams that need to communicate a lot, I think something like this is the best setup because like you said, it's not a lag from a messenger.. having to make a new phone call etc if you just want to ask a simple question.
> One thing I find difficult in remote teams is the ability to ask a coworker a question quickly.
Why is it so important that your colleague HAVE to respond quickly? Have you ever considered that your colleague may need some time alone to finish her own task before she can answer your super important question? (sorry for the mood of my answer but it is so bad on purpose :) )
Why is it so important that your colleague HAVE to respond quickly? Have you ever considered that your colleague may need some time alone to finish her own task before she can answer your super important question? (sorry for the mood of my answer but it is so bad on purpose :) )
If I am stuck on something, and that something is in your realm, either for understanding or providing, then I might be stuck and unproductive until you answer.
e.g. I send you a message - I am trying to use 'xyzzy' which you provide. When I send it 'plover' I do not get back the response I need. Am I doing something wrong? <crickets for 3 days> WTF why can he not respond in a reasonable time frame? 1) on vacation, 2) sick in bed 3) over worked 4) a jerk 5) missed my email. In an office I can walk over and say WTF? Where I will easily find the new person who took his place, since he moved on to another job.
e.g. I send you a message - I am trying to use 'xyzzy' which you provide. When I send it 'plover' I do not get back the response I need. Am I doing something wrong? <crickets for 3 days> WTF why can he not respond in a reasonable time frame? 1) on vacation, 2) sick in bed 3) over worked 4) a jerk 5) missed my email. In an office I can walk over and say WTF? Where I will easily find the new person who took his place, since he moved on to another job.
I am just reading your other comments and I am getting the impression that you don't want honest feedback but just confirmation that remote work is good.
People who are focused on task are easy to distinguish visually, when you are in person.
This article is entitled "There's No Such Thing as Quality Time."
It's oriented towards families, but it makes the case that there's no levels of time, just...time, we spend together. Things happen in the cracks between scheduled events that matter.
https://ryanholiday.net/quality-time/
When you work remote, everything is scheduled, almost by definition. No conversations happen that are not task-directed. You lose something there.
It's oriented towards families, but it makes the case that there's no levels of time, just...time, we spend together. Things happen in the cracks between scheduled events that matter.
https://ryanholiday.net/quality-time/
When you work remote, everything is scheduled, almost by definition. No conversations happen that are not task-directed. You lose something there.
> When you work remote, everything is scheduled, almost by definition
This assumption is not true in my experience. When shifting our company to full time remote we did have an uptick in scheduled events but we still have plenty of things that are unscheduled, unless you consider "hey can I call you right now?" A scheduled event
This assumption is not true in my experience. When shifting our company to full time remote we did have an uptick in scheduled events but we still have plenty of things that are unscheduled, unless you consider "hey can I call you right now?" A scheduled event
> When you work remote, everything is scheduled, almost by definition. No conversations happen that are not task-directed. You lose something there.
This is not how it was for us. And other teams that were distributed even before covid also were not like this - portion of their calls were always idle chat.
This is not how it was for us. And other teams that were distributed even before covid also were not like this - portion of their calls were always idle chat.
This still happens, it just happens on Slack. Perhaps not the same but it's not gone.
I know it can potentially be controversial but a lot of outside of work relationships start at the office. Some can be romantic and may even lead to marriage. Others can be friendships that last job changes. It can even be as simple as having a great group of people to chill at a bar with. While I love my wife and kids, I think most others are like me and want to periodically get out and meet new people. Work is often the best place for that.
"The office" can be the building where you may have your desk, does it mean that the desk must be owned by the company you work for? or that everyone in the room must work for the same company to build a relation ship? :)
There was a really interesting freaknomics podcast discussing remote work. There was some study on a large sales company in China that experimented with half of employees working remotely and half not. At the end they found that remote workers were more productive in terms of sales numbers (less time on commute, office socializing) but they got promoted at lower rates (less facetime with superiors, not on peoples' radars)
A bit of the out of sight out of mind at play? Curious too as to how much visibility into efforts of remote employees (wins) were shared, celebrated and known across the company vs. folks in person that have a better platform to promote themselves.
It seems to me that there is a use case, or model, for remote work, and is situational in nature. It mostly comes down to a pro/con list, and for me it really boils down to some 'risk assessment' and 'mitigation strategy' in dealing with various levels of Aptitude, Communication, Organization Culture, etc.
As with all jobs, it tends to come down to the individual, are they the correct fit for remote work. Do they have 'non-in-person' communication skills? Do they have the aptitude for self direction? Can they work independently, from their remote environment? Can they contribute/collaborate with a team, from their remote environment? Does the organizations culture accept, and work with remote workflow?
The strongest argument against remote work is: Are you trying to fit a square peg in a round hole?
As with all jobs, it tends to come down to the individual, are they the correct fit for remote work. Do they have 'non-in-person' communication skills? Do they have the aptitude for self direction? Can they work independently, from their remote environment? Can they contribute/collaborate with a team, from their remote environment? Does the organizations culture accept, and work with remote workflow?
The strongest argument against remote work is: Are you trying to fit a square peg in a round hole?
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Inability to form genuine social bonds with colleagues, thus artificially limiting trust.
I can assure you that it is possible to not trust people you see every day, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Hey there, I worked remotely for 4 of ~7.5 years at a medium-to-large tech company (I left in February). I'm very thankful I had the opportunity, since 99% of the engineering team was either onsite or in satellite offices.
In my experience, it was far easier for me to get burned out when working remotely versus in an office with other people. And when I did get burned out, I found it harder to get back on the other side of the hill when I didn't have a community around me.
Also, if I look at the ~7.5 year tenure at the company — my most productive and happiest times were when I was located onsite at their HQ.
Just my $0.02; happy to talk more in detail over email (in profile).
In my experience, it was far easier for me to get burned out when working remotely versus in an office with other people. And when I did get burned out, I found it harder to get back on the other side of the hill when I didn't have a community around me.
Also, if I look at the ~7.5 year tenure at the company — my most productive and happiest times were when I was located onsite at their HQ.
Just my $0.02; happy to talk more in detail over email (in profile).
Lack of engagement is the strongest argument I can think of.
Immersion in problems is a really cheap way for product managers, engineering leads, and data scientists to engage with problems. When you're in office it's easier to get that engagement, thereby getting business-relevant exposure and feedback on your work.
Remote work can also confound lack of skill for communication difficulties (another form of lack of engagement). One of the weakest leads I've ever worked with was remote. He was ineffectual and effectively invisible to execs, except when they wondered why his team wasn't delivering more value.
Immersion in problems is a really cheap way for product managers, engineering leads, and data scientists to engage with problems. When you're in office it's easier to get that engagement, thereby getting business-relevant exposure and feedback on your work.
Remote work can also confound lack of skill for communication difficulties (another form of lack of engagement). One of the weakest leads I've ever worked with was remote. He was ineffectual and effectively invisible to execs, except when they wondered why his team wasn't delivering more value.
Fully remote work does not permit the community that research requires to progress. So fully remote isn’t an option for me. Flexible time, of course, is.
Now Alan Chynoweth mentioned that I used to eat at the physics table. I had been eating with the mathematicians and I found out that I already knew a fair amount of mathematics; in fact, I wasn't learning much. The physics table was, as he said, an exciting place, but I think he exaggerated on how much I contributed. It was very interesting to listen to Shockley, Brattain, Bardeen, J. B. Johnson, Ken McKay and other people, and I was learning a lot. But unfortunately a Nobel Prize came, and a promotion came, and what was left was the dregs. Nobody wanted what was left. Well, there was no use eating with them!
Over on the other side of the dining hall was a chemistry table. I had worked with one of the fellows, Dave McCall; furthermore he was courting our secretary at the time. I went over and said, "Do you mind if I join you?" They can't say no, so I started eating with them for a while. And I started asking, "What are the important problems of your field?" And after a week or so, "What important problems are you working on?" And after some more time I came in one day and said, "If what you are doing is not important, and if you don't think it is going to lead to something important, why are you at Bell Labs working on it?" I wasn't welcomed after that; I had to find somebody else to eat with! That was in the spring.
In the fall, Dave McCall stopped me in the hall and said, "Hamming, that remark of yours got underneath my skin. I thought about it all summer, i.e. what were the important problems in my field. I haven't changed my research," he says, "but I think it was well worthwhile." And I said, "Thank you Dave," and went on. I noticed a couple of months later he was made the head of the department. I noticed the other day he was a Member of the National Academy of Engineering. I noticed he has succeeded. I have never heard the names of any of the other fellows at that table mentioned in science and scientific circles. They were unable to ask themselves, "What are the important problems in my field?"
Hamming, “You and your Research”
Now Alan Chynoweth mentioned that I used to eat at the physics table. I had been eating with the mathematicians and I found out that I already knew a fair amount of mathematics; in fact, I wasn't learning much. The physics table was, as he said, an exciting place, but I think he exaggerated on how much I contributed. It was very interesting to listen to Shockley, Brattain, Bardeen, J. B. Johnson, Ken McKay and other people, and I was learning a lot. But unfortunately a Nobel Prize came, and a promotion came, and what was left was the dregs. Nobody wanted what was left. Well, there was no use eating with them!
Over on the other side of the dining hall was a chemistry table. I had worked with one of the fellows, Dave McCall; furthermore he was courting our secretary at the time. I went over and said, "Do you mind if I join you?" They can't say no, so I started eating with them for a while. And I started asking, "What are the important problems of your field?" And after a week or so, "What important problems are you working on?" And after some more time I came in one day and said, "If what you are doing is not important, and if you don't think it is going to lead to something important, why are you at Bell Labs working on it?" I wasn't welcomed after that; I had to find somebody else to eat with! That was in the spring.
In the fall, Dave McCall stopped me in the hall and said, "Hamming, that remark of yours got underneath my skin. I thought about it all summer, i.e. what were the important problems in my field. I haven't changed my research," he says, "but I think it was well worthwhile." And I said, "Thank you Dave," and went on. I noticed a couple of months later he was made the head of the department. I noticed the other day he was a Member of the National Academy of Engineering. I noticed he has succeeded. I have never heard the names of any of the other fellows at that table mentioned in science and scientific circles. They were unable to ask themselves, "What are the important problems in my field?"
Hamming, “You and your Research”
I need human contact. I'm fuelled off of the energy of others. What I love about my current job is my bosses drive, vision and enthusiasm. Don't get me wrong the hours are terrible. The work is closer to IT grunt work than the programming I love. But I get to solve real problems and be a key part of driving a business forward under a highly motivated boss. It's great. I don't know if that would be possible with only remote interaction.
Some people are just as productive at home as in the office. I'm a remote worker and I'd put myself in this camp. But some people self-report a decrease in productivity and I'm inclined to take them seriously. There are workers who aren't shy about saying, "I get less done at home" (e.g. [0]).
I recommend believing them.
[0] https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/125374860767884492...
I recommend believing them.
[0] https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/125374860767884492...
Isolation both physically and mentally.
As a serial entrepayneur in Saas and a degreed software architect I find little disruption and absolute silence a great benefit to be able to create in the confines and silence of my home. I have been working remote partially since dialup and full remote in the last 10 years. One must self motivate and while I can say that easily since my efforts result in my own success working for someone else is likely more difficult if you need constant feedback and oversight.
Stay Healthy!
As a serial entrepayneur in Saas and a degreed software architect I find little disruption and absolute silence a great benefit to be able to create in the confines and silence of my home. I have been working remote partially since dialup and full remote in the last 10 years. One must self motivate and while I can say that easily since my efforts result in my own success working for someone else is likely more difficult if you need constant feedback and oversight.
Stay Healthy!
Alignment and coordination suffer, in my experience; on the other hand, the productivity at large is increased. It could be that remote work is more suited to some stages of the product / service life, notably the early stage (brainstorming, early design, early tests) and the sales / post-sales stage (business development, due diligence, customer care)?
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Hiring - People who are great remote workers are a small percentage of the available talent, so you often end up either with talented people who don't do well remotely, or less talented people who are great at working remote. There certainly are people out there with both traits, but it takes a ton of effort to find them and build a team of them.
So. Hear me out. I had my eyes opened a little bit last weekend. I was going through leadership substitutes theories and spatial distance from leader ( or manager ) is listed as one of the neutralizers. Naturally, it is not an argument management would openly make, but all of a sudden I understood why they were so unwilling to make remote happen. It undermines them.
edit: added openly
edit: added openly
Online meetings seriously suck still. It's harder to form real relationships with coworkers (some would see this as a plus, but I think it depends on the company/team culture). But the biggest change is forming trust. How do we come to trust in each other and in the mission if we never interact physically? It certainly takes a different kind of leadership.
I can say by experience that being in the same building does not imply that you are building a relationship.
Meetings are meetings, you still have to prepare, you still have to communicate well, you will have your turn to speak, if it does not work it is not because you are behind a webcam
I agree with you. I just think there are more reasons why a meeting would not be productive over zoom, especially if you're working with older, non-tech people!
Most meetings in general suck. The best meetings have an agenda, a goal and the right people. I think that can be accomplished online.
Audio/video chat is atrocious for relationship building.
- There's the speed of sound/light delay. - You lose all the physiological feedback: Body language, tone, facial expression. - The barrier to start a conversation is way higher too. Some would argue that is good. - You cannot go for a walk with a peer.
- There's the speed of sound/light delay. - You lose all the physiological feedback: Body language, tone, facial expression. - The barrier to start a conversation is way higher too. Some would argue that is good. - You cannot go for a walk with a peer.
I think for established companies it's that there is a big risk and time commitment to realign company process and organisation to support remote work.
Definitely less of an argument for starting something new but if you've not done it before then it also carries some risk you might not be willing to shoulder.
Definitely less of an argument for starting something new but if you've not done it before then it also carries some risk you might not be willing to shoulder.
I'm stuck at home with a dog/puppy and no way to escape without having to tend to it every 2 hours. Personally I don't mind it, because I enjoy spending time with my dog, but the business might.
It breaks concentration and deep work.
By my own estimates, I'm about 40-50% as productive as I was in the office.
It breaks concentration and deep work.
By my own estimates, I'm about 40-50% as productive as I was in the office.
You generally miss the out of band communication, i.e. the conversations between other colleagues that you overhear, as well as the 'waterfountain' chat. Sure, these spaces can be created online, but in my experience the threshold is too high for such spontaneous things to happen.
> i.e. the conversations between other colleagues that you overhear, as well as the 'waterfountain' chat.
Never underestimate the value of these conversations. Often, this simple ability to "overhear" others is EXACTLY how you avoid being left out of the loop and have some clue as to what's going on.
Never underestimate the value of these conversations. Often, this simple ability to "overhear" others is EXACTLY how you avoid being left out of the loop and have some clue as to what's going on.
this is a real issue even with in office presence; not everyone is in the loop and the solution, in my opinion, is not to keep everyone in the same room but to spread information in the company
But the people in charge are often oblivious to this situation, because it feels to them like everyone is in the loop. Mostly because "the loop" has been happening for a long time as a side-effect of people overhearing conversations.
Of course this problem also manifests when a company grows to the point where no one sits within earshot anymore.
Of course this problem also manifests when a company grows to the point where no one sits within earshot anymore.
Number one is: You need to be cut out for it. You need to be self sufficient and be OK with working alone. Not many people can handle that and will want to go back to the office.
I love remote work and get really stressed in an office (especially open and cubes) but I feel people like me are a minority.
I love remote work and get really stressed in an office (especially open and cubes) but I feel people like me are a minority.
Thank you for your points!
> You need to be cut out for it. You need to be self sufficient
Instead of saying "People are not cut to it" why cannot we say "People have not enough experience with it"?
Even working in a classic office space requires some experience, trial and error.
> and be OK with working alone.
well, there are co-working spaces, working hubs etc
> You need to be cut out for it. You need to be self sufficient
Instead of saying "People are not cut to it" why cannot we say "People have not enough experience with it"?
Even working in a classic office space requires some experience, trial and error.
> and be OK with working alone.
well, there are co-working spaces, working hubs etc
> Instead of saying "People are not cut to it" why cannot we say "People have not enough experience with it"?
I've been working exclusively remotely for around five years now.
Certainly there are skills that can be acquired and improved that will help you succeed, but I believe that there is also a significant element of "natural aptitude". Some people need the personal interaction of an office environment more than others to feel fulfilled. If they need that and don't get it, no amount of training or experience is going to change that.
I've been working exclusively remotely for around five years now.
Certainly there are skills that can be acquired and improved that will help you succeed, but I believe that there is also a significant element of "natural aptitude". Some people need the personal interaction of an office environment more than others to feel fulfilled. If they need that and don't get it, no amount of training or experience is going to change that.
There certainly is a level of experience needed but some people are just more social than others. I know several people who started working remotely and hated it after a while. I believe there are a lot of people who would do themselves a disfavor if they started working remotely because it goes against their own needs. For others it's perfect. It's good to know where you fall on the spectrum.
I used to be strongly against it. I felt like I would never be able to be productive or efficient from home with a pile of books sitting on one side, a tv on the other and so on. Boy, was I wrong... As a matter of fact things have never been easier. While on-site you constantly have people around you, and countless distractions and annoyances, this is not the case at home.
This isn't the case for everyone of course - if you have kids, families, pets and whatnot, I'm sure that changes.
In addition, since I am a really die-hard linux user and I know my way around a system and networks, it's safe to say I do most of the work locally on my computer. rsync, mounting small partitions over sshfs with just the files I need, tunneling and so on, I honestly can't tell the difference after spending two hours writing a few shell scripts for common stuff. Generally I am a command line guy, I rarely bother with fancy IDE's and vim is often my first weapon of choice. With a couple of macros I've been able to simplify just about all common tasks to a few keystrokes. And being really familiar with the code that already exists, I rarely need reference. As long as I have SSH and the most basic of tools like vim, grep, git, find and whatnot, I feel right at home, no pun intended.
But for people who are used to more modern, fancy stuff(coming from a 30 year old...), this might sound like a nightmare. Also if your work involves a lot of graphics, it's probably a nightmare. Looking at people using rdp... Them poor poor souls...
The only drawback I initially saw was the absence of physical movement for me. This worried me a lot because until several years ago I was a bit overweight to put it mildly(185cm, 110+ kg). Before the lockdown I used to walk to and back from work, exercise and all of a sudden all of that went away. But there was another strange side effect of the lockdown - I started exercising on daily basis(having weights, pull up bar, yoga mats and whatnot and 5 minutes every couple of hours). To my greatest surprise, in the last month and a half I've gotten in a better shape then ever. In terms of body fat I'm certainly in the single digits without loosing muscle mass.
So in the case of people who have the chance to work in solitude, have a good working ethic, can handle their work efficiently over the internet, don't require social interactions and can take care of their physical and mental health(highly specific demographic, I know), at this point I have 0 arguments against remote work. If anything, I absolutely love it.
This isn't the case for everyone of course - if you have kids, families, pets and whatnot, I'm sure that changes.
In addition, since I am a really die-hard linux user and I know my way around a system and networks, it's safe to say I do most of the work locally on my computer. rsync, mounting small partitions over sshfs with just the files I need, tunneling and so on, I honestly can't tell the difference after spending two hours writing a few shell scripts for common stuff. Generally I am a command line guy, I rarely bother with fancy IDE's and vim is often my first weapon of choice. With a couple of macros I've been able to simplify just about all common tasks to a few keystrokes. And being really familiar with the code that already exists, I rarely need reference. As long as I have SSH and the most basic of tools like vim, grep, git, find and whatnot, I feel right at home, no pun intended.
But for people who are used to more modern, fancy stuff(coming from a 30 year old...), this might sound like a nightmare. Also if your work involves a lot of graphics, it's probably a nightmare. Looking at people using rdp... Them poor poor souls...
The only drawback I initially saw was the absence of physical movement for me. This worried me a lot because until several years ago I was a bit overweight to put it mildly(185cm, 110+ kg). Before the lockdown I used to walk to and back from work, exercise and all of a sudden all of that went away. But there was another strange side effect of the lockdown - I started exercising on daily basis(having weights, pull up bar, yoga mats and whatnot and 5 minutes every couple of hours). To my greatest surprise, in the last month and a half I've gotten in a better shape then ever. In terms of body fat I'm certainly in the single digits without loosing muscle mass.
So in the case of people who have the chance to work in solitude, have a good working ethic, can handle their work efficiently over the internet, don't require social interactions and can take care of their physical and mental health(highly specific demographic, I know), at this point I have 0 arguments against remote work. If anything, I absolutely love it.
Is this about remote or all-remote?
Does anyone else do this thing when they work 90% of the time remotely and sometimes travel for a day meeting? This addresses some of the issues discussed.
This can also work for informal communication, to a degree.
Does anyone else do this thing when they work 90% of the time remotely and sometimes travel for a day meeting? This addresses some of the issues discussed.
This can also work for informal communication, to a degree.
My strongest argument for remote work is that I find typical offices almost completely useless for getting work done, because of interruptions, distractions, noise, required in-person activities, shared physical space, and general lack of privacy, so I end up doing most work at home anyway.
Many physical offices seem to be designed largely to enforce social pecking orders (sustaining and visibly rewarding high status while punishing low status) and/or to cram more people into fewer square feet, rather than to facilitate sustainable productivity along with physical and mental health.
Private, walled offices with closed doors can help somewhat, but most workplaces I'm familiar with seem to have switched to productivity-destroying open plan offices to save on facilities costs.
Many physical offices seem to be designed largely to enforce social pecking orders (sustaining and visibly rewarding high status while punishing low status) and/or to cram more people into fewer square feet, rather than to facilitate sustainable productivity along with physical and mental health.
Private, walled offices with closed doors can help somewhat, but most workplaces I'm familiar with seem to have switched to productivity-destroying open plan offices to save on facilities costs.
A lot of things have been said, how communication is easier in person. I would simply add I miss socialization, chatting to colleagues during coffee break, extremely productive brainstorming during lunch and so on
People managers are the gatekeepers. As a developer its much easier to account the time. But its hard for people managers to account for time. That is only reason, nothing else ?
Personal growth, learning group dynamics, interactions, etc.
Same reason I would rather my kids to go to regular school and college instead of remote ones.
Remote work doesn't work well for certain jobs that require dealing with physical objects.
This may change with advances in robotics and remote control.
This may change with advances in robotics and remote control.
Solitude in the long term will make you miserable
It's impossible to have a company potluck.
Typically remote work companies still have occasional (say quarterly) in person, all-hands gatherings.
Yep. But I'm not lugging a crock pot on a plane. :)
It's hard to train people remotely. At least it is in my experience anyway.
it will require a bit more effort for sure, but teaching (not training, we are not puppies) is hard anyway, even if you are an awesome teacher
I don't like my private sphere getting invaded by a public sphere.
so you are saying that you need someone else to decide what is private or not in your life?
it doesnt foster competition between each other ?
Gossip and social interaction.
It can seem pointless but when you find out that the random co worker shares an interest/friendship with a senior figure in the company, as you witness a brief exchange. A major mistake many make is not realising who "knows of" others in the workplace, they may normally never even greet one another.
The mail/parcel facilities guy mentions he is helping set up that new set of desks or has to come in early for a major delivery. Small things but can be very insightful.
On nodding terms with the help desk person who then happier to help you when you need urgent help.
Making polite small talk waiting for a meeting or con call to start. About some minor incident, feature or event in the office you both use. Even just waffling on about the carparking situation or the local supermarket or sandwich shop you all end up at when visiting the Office.
When you send that email to the team and whoever else. But you get that brief bit of feedback (it might just be a glance and a grin) across the desk that you just won't get via remote messaging services.
Overhearing or partaking in random conversations in the office which a snippet of become useful sometimes months or years later.
Having impromptu training sessions as either as teacher or pupil because well we are all there and now is as good a time as ever.
Opportunities as the person speaking to the person who is first asked.
I got offered an internal extra role which involves little but ensures I get an additional payment monthly on top of my wages and useful on the CV. All because stood by my then managers desk . I have changed my main role several times in the 9 years or so since but still have this little extra role and the payment.
Hosting and receiving guests on behalf of others or the department as in the Office. Over the years I have made a lot of contacts this way and got involved in a number of projects and ongoing operations simply from being the stand in host or dragged along by a manager/director as their person who understands technology or simply for a second opinion..
Plenty of times sat in the office and become the resolver (even if asking those working remotely) in the eyes of those that need help. Even though credit given to others the person helped remembers your face and name.
Getting offered the extra tickets for a event the company sponsor as others pull out and well your there.
As I look back over decades of work it's nearly always meeting people in person even in passing where things happen. A quick interaction which I have forgotten may be remembered by someone who comes back into your working life decades later. Much less likely your recall those you once called or emailed in passing years later.
I work at home regularly but would be extremely concerned if unable to regularly visit my employers offices.
Never be in the office to often but been there regularly enough.
It can seem pointless but when you find out that the random co worker shares an interest/friendship with a senior figure in the company, as you witness a brief exchange. A major mistake many make is not realising who "knows of" others in the workplace, they may normally never even greet one another.
The mail/parcel facilities guy mentions he is helping set up that new set of desks or has to come in early for a major delivery. Small things but can be very insightful.
On nodding terms with the help desk person who then happier to help you when you need urgent help.
Making polite small talk waiting for a meeting or con call to start. About some minor incident, feature or event in the office you both use. Even just waffling on about the carparking situation or the local supermarket or sandwich shop you all end up at when visiting the Office.
When you send that email to the team and whoever else. But you get that brief bit of feedback (it might just be a glance and a grin) across the desk that you just won't get via remote messaging services.
Overhearing or partaking in random conversations in the office which a snippet of become useful sometimes months or years later.
Having impromptu training sessions as either as teacher or pupil because well we are all there and now is as good a time as ever.
Opportunities as the person speaking to the person who is first asked.
I got offered an internal extra role which involves little but ensures I get an additional payment monthly on top of my wages and useful on the CV. All because stood by my then managers desk . I have changed my main role several times in the 9 years or so since but still have this little extra role and the payment.
Hosting and receiving guests on behalf of others or the department as in the Office. Over the years I have made a lot of contacts this way and got involved in a number of projects and ongoing operations simply from being the stand in host or dragged along by a manager/director as their person who understands technology or simply for a second opinion..
Plenty of times sat in the office and become the resolver (even if asking those working remotely) in the eyes of those that need help. Even though credit given to others the person helped remembers your face and name.
Getting offered the extra tickets for a event the company sponsor as others pull out and well your there.
As I look back over decades of work it's nearly always meeting people in person even in passing where things happen. A quick interaction which I have forgotten may be remembered by someone who comes back into your working life decades later. Much less likely your recall those you once called or emailed in passing years later.
I work at home regularly but would be extremely concerned if unable to regularly visit my employers offices.
Never be in the office to often but been there regularly enough.
There isn't one, for our industry. You are right now remotely asking for help with how to manage a business. We can do everything remotely, and many businesses in our industry have done so. The fact is that, if you don't have co-located capital (a data center), then you don't need co-located labor (employees to maintain the data center).