Ask HN: What laptop should I buy in 2021?
52 comments
A Thinkpad that runs OpenBSD!
OpenBSD developers mostly use Thinkpads, so everything works - suspend, hibernation, wifi, camera, etc. Packages for firefox, chrome, and all the usual other open source software are just a pkg_add command away. Two commands and a reboot to upgrade the system and all installed apps a couple times a year.
It might not be the right OS if you are a gamer, or you gotta have the latest phone-app-thingy, but if you're a unix person and want a rock solid well organized and documented system that you can trust it's bliss.
OpenBSD developers mostly use Thinkpads, so everything works - suspend, hibernation, wifi, camera, etc. Packages for firefox, chrome, and all the usual other open source software are just a pkg_add command away. Two commands and a reboot to upgrade the system and all installed apps a couple times a year.
It might not be the right OS if you are a gamer, or you gotta have the latest phone-app-thingy, but if you're a unix person and want a rock solid well organized and documented system that you can trust it's bliss.
OpenBSD is admirable in that it’s conservative and just works compared to what you see in some but not all linux distros. However, is package management truly as sublime as you mention compared to what you would find in Linux—such as apt? And two, does OpenBSD have good if any support for containers?
It's not just the packages. The whole system is as simple and straight forward as it can be. It didn't need many tweaks, and I know everything it's doing. Openbsd just makes me happy :-)
I've stuck with pre-compiled packages, and that's as easy as can be. I've only needed the pkg_info, pkg_add, and pkg_delete commands. There's a syspatch command to pull down OS security updates and upgrade to new releases. After new releases the fw_update command updates any firmware packages, and pkg-add -ui updates all packages. The faq pages have more info on this, and a lot of other system setup stuff [0].
(Extra info: Packages are pre-compiled binaries from the openbsd ports collection [1]. This ports collection can be installed and used to build stuff from source, and more closely track updates. Each app has a sub-dir under the ports directory with a makefile to download source code and compile/install everything to the right place, handle dependencies, etc. Packages are so easy, and I've never needed to get involved with ports. I've used ports on freebsd and can appreciate the value of them, if someone were to need them.)
I don't have much first hand experience with openbsd containers. The system makes use of chroot [2] for daemons like httpd, running executables as a separate user restricted to a specified userland root directory, and I've played with this. There's also vmm [3], which can run openbsd and linux virtual machines. Apparently vmm allows for docker to run on openbsd [4].
[0] https://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html [1] https://openports.se/ [2] https://man.openbsd.org/chroot [3] https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq16.html [4] https://medium.com/@dave_voutila/docker-on-openbsd-6-1-curre...
I've stuck with pre-compiled packages, and that's as easy as can be. I've only needed the pkg_info, pkg_add, and pkg_delete commands. There's a syspatch command to pull down OS security updates and upgrade to new releases. After new releases the fw_update command updates any firmware packages, and pkg-add -ui updates all packages. The faq pages have more info on this, and a lot of other system setup stuff [0].
(Extra info: Packages are pre-compiled binaries from the openbsd ports collection [1]. This ports collection can be installed and used to build stuff from source, and more closely track updates. Each app has a sub-dir under the ports directory with a makefile to download source code and compile/install everything to the right place, handle dependencies, etc. Packages are so easy, and I've never needed to get involved with ports. I've used ports on freebsd and can appreciate the value of them, if someone were to need them.)
I don't have much first hand experience with openbsd containers. The system makes use of chroot [2] for daemons like httpd, running executables as a separate user restricted to a specified userland root directory, and I've played with this. There's also vmm [3], which can run openbsd and linux virtual machines. Apparently vmm allows for docker to run on openbsd [4].
[0] https://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html [1] https://openports.se/ [2] https://man.openbsd.org/chroot [3] https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq16.html [4] https://medium.com/@dave_voutila/docker-on-openbsd-6-1-curre...
I love OpenBSD but it's not very good for professional work, especially involving ml/scientific computing. No CUDA, and performance is pretty bad all around. It is superbly designed and probably the highest quality Unix around. It's unfortunate that Linux ever gained traction.
I was curious about what kind of performance problems you bumped into, outside of the obvious non-existent CUDA support?
I ask because I had the impression that openbsd was doing ok in this regard. I use it for development and running apps with a lot of concurrent processes and hadn't noticed any problems. These benchmarks [0] have it doing better than almost all linux distributions when it comes to compilation times (but I know benchmarks are not always as objective as they could be). My youtubes and media players run great :-)
It's been a while since I did any heavy networking, but I never had problems/surprises there as long as I spec'd out appropriate hardware, in particular the pf firewall and the hw accelerated ipsec and qos configs which I got pretty far into were outstanding, better than cisco hardware costing a lot more at the time.
[0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=bsds-pho...
I ask because I had the impression that openbsd was doing ok in this regard. I use it for development and running apps with a lot of concurrent processes and hadn't noticed any problems. These benchmarks [0] have it doing better than almost all linux distributions when it comes to compilation times (but I know benchmarks are not always as objective as they could be). My youtubes and media players run great :-)
It's been a while since I did any heavy networking, but I never had problems/surprises there as long as I spec'd out appropriate hardware, in particular the pf firewall and the hw accelerated ipsec and qos configs which I got pretty far into were outstanding, better than cisco hardware costing a lot more at the time.
[0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=bsds-pho...
my workload is heavily compute constrained and I notice a big difference in the performance/time of my analyses on OpenBSD vs Linux. Most other people probably wouldn't notice it that much though.
Edit: tbqh I haven't used openBSD in a couple years, so things might have (probably?) changed since then.
Edit: tbqh I haven't used openBSD in a couple years, so things might have (probably?) changed since then.
For me the best laptop I've owned is the 17 inch LG Gram.
a 2560 x 1600 pixels screen with less than 1.5 kilos in weight.
another one that looks very interesting is the kfocus.org laptop.. preinstalled with linux and plenty powerful.
a 2560 x 1600 pixels screen with less than 1.5 kilos in weight.
another one that looks very interesting is the kfocus.org laptop.. preinstalled with linux and plenty powerful.
I'd second this recommendation, given your price-bracket. My home laptop is a 2020 LG Gram 17 (which I've augmented to 40GB RAM and a 1TB Samsung Evo Plus SSD). The combination of sheer screen real-estate plus incredible lightness makes this a joy to work with. Obviously, it's never going to win in raw performance benchmark comparisons, but I tend to move any significant heavy lifting to cloud anyway.
What makes things easier for me is using it in conjunction with remote VSCode (into either local WSL2 or aforementioned cloud boxes).
Of course, if you're wedded to specific Mac software, then I'd imagine that an M1-based machine will be your only realistic option.
What makes things easier for me is using it in conjunction with remote VSCode (into either local WSL2 or aforementioned cloud boxes).
Of course, if you're wedded to specific Mac software, then I'd imagine that an M1-based machine will be your only realistic option.
Went to look at the LG Gram and only one model out of 49(!) states how much RAM is installed(?!)
https://www.lg.com/us/laptops
https://www.lg.com/us/laptops
I heard really good things about 14” and 15” version, it seems that LG really good something good going on there.
I'm waiting for the new Macbook Pros. Rumors suggest return to magsafe, sdcard reader, no touchbar, old keyboard and of course the new Apple silicon.
At this point I would wait for the new Apple M1s slated to come out in a few months. Apparently the current M1s have impressed many all around and probably worth the wait to at least see final specs and not have buyers remorse
Never wait for the next best thing. Buy what you need now, you can always resell and get the new model later.
Normally, I’d agree, but I think a seismic shift in the industry warrants some patience.
If you can’t wait, this is sound advice. However, if you can, it’s likely worth it, on this rare occasion.
If you can’t wait, this is sound advice. However, if you can, it’s likely worth it, on this rare occasion.
Why wait half a year when m1 air resale value will be close to retail price? We are talking losing $100 after using it for 6 months.
That seems optimistic, the M1s were already discounted $65-150 earlier this month. I think the decider here would be simply having an M1 if your workloads benefit from it.
Does your resale assessment also include withheld taxes?
The keyboard is the big thing that kills any non-Thinkpad for me, otherwise I'd have gotten an M1 Mac in a heartbeat. Has anyone here managed to adjust from the nice solid ThinkPad keys to the modern Mac keys?
Will they be in the $1200 price range, the op has mentioned?
The rumors says third quarter - at least 6 months.
m1 mac pro, then when new ones come out later this year upgrade.. I'm not even a apple person until this m1 mac, love this thing, best laptop purchase i've made in a long time
Lenovo X1 Carbon. Fantastic form factor, reasonable price, durable (mine has seen more kms in my backpack than some of my running gear!). Runs Ubuntu just fine.
This laptop is also popular with openbsd developers, everything should work for that OS also. This will probably be what I get next. I'm using an X260 at the moment - smaller footprint.
I'm real happy with my Pixelbook Go. It's like having linux with a good windowing system and UX. Linux APP is Debian 10 in a VM+container, haven't really missed being native linux since the switch about a year ago.
Just to get a Chromebook thread going; there's some really exciting options with the new Ryzen *C chips and the new Intel Xe powered Evo chips coming out this year. Lenovo has/had an awesome sale [1] on their ThinkPad C13 Chromebooks with $300-$500 off. I can't stand those upside down ThinkPad trackpads though so I'm waiting for one with a normal glass trackpad.
[1] https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-c-ser...
[1] https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-c-ser...
I agree with sticking to the M1 macs. I stayed with my older 2015 MPB for now until the new MPBs come out and by then there will be better Apple Silicon support. Instead I bought a used System76 Meerkat, which is an Intel NUC essentially, and I have that small thing sitting in my desk. So, I can ssh into it, or when at home sitting in front of my desk, I can connect it to my monitor and have a Linux machine.
Refurbed Thinkpad/Latitudes, spec it out to the max (RAM, storage) with the leftover money. It would still come out to less than $1200.
I'm going to give an anti-recommendation for the Dell XPS 13. It was considered the top Macbook alternative back in 2017-2018. The design is good, but the parts are flimsy and the customer service is poor.
My wife and I both bought one: me a 9360 and later her a 9370.
Around a year into using my laptop, the power button started to occasionally get stuck behind the case and turn off the computer. After 3 years, it's gotten so bad that this happens any time I close, open, or adjust the angle of the laptop screen. The screws that hold the bottom of the case together tend to get loose, but the root cause of this problem is a crack in a metal part of the internals of the laptop that's probably been there since day 1. Currently, I'm using KDE Neon since Plasma gives a good warning when the power button is pressed.
Additionally, I had to replace the battery since after 2-3 years just outside of warranty, it went down from 10 hours to 45 minutes.
Dell Support refused to fix either of the issues.
You might think this is just a case of getting a lemon, but my wife's 9370 had problems too.
The computer came with several keyboard keys not working. Dell Support took over a month to ship a new one, and I spent forever on the phone with them figuring out why the repair was still "processing".
Now after 2 years, the battery has started to swell and has cracked the outside of the case a little. No luck from Dell Support getting this issue fixed.
Unless you buy a good support plan like many large companies do that have large amount of Dell Laptops for employees, I'd stay away from the brand.
My wife and I both bought one: me a 9360 and later her a 9370.
Around a year into using my laptop, the power button started to occasionally get stuck behind the case and turn off the computer. After 3 years, it's gotten so bad that this happens any time I close, open, or adjust the angle of the laptop screen. The screws that hold the bottom of the case together tend to get loose, but the root cause of this problem is a crack in a metal part of the internals of the laptop that's probably been there since day 1. Currently, I'm using KDE Neon since Plasma gives a good warning when the power button is pressed.
Additionally, I had to replace the battery since after 2-3 years just outside of warranty, it went down from 10 hours to 45 minutes.
Dell Support refused to fix either of the issues.
You might think this is just a case of getting a lemon, but my wife's 9370 had problems too.
The computer came with several keyboard keys not working. Dell Support took over a month to ship a new one, and I spent forever on the phone with them figuring out why the repair was still "processing".
Now after 2 years, the battery has started to swell and has cracked the outside of the case a little. No luck from Dell Support getting this issue fixed.
Unless you buy a good support plan like many large companies do that have large amount of Dell Laptops for employees, I'd stay away from the brand.
I have an XPS 9300 (the 13" 2020 version). I've had a great experience running Ubuntu on it.
I don't doubt that some people have issues with it, but I wonder what percentage of people have issues with it, and how that percentage compares to other laptops.
The only issue I had was with the power adapter, it made a very high pitched noise (the laptop does not make a noise and does not have "coil whine"). Customer service replaced the power adapter without hassle and the new one is fine.
Mine came with a year of Pro Support which was free, I don't know if that made any difference on the ease of replacement.
I don't doubt that some people have issues with it, but I wonder what percentage of people have issues with it, and how that percentage compares to other laptops.
The only issue I had was with the power adapter, it made a very high pitched noise (the laptop does not make a noise and does not have "coil whine"). Customer service replaced the power adapter without hassle and the new one is fine.
Mine came with a year of Pro Support which was free, I don't know if that made any difference on the ease of replacement.
Got a 9550, hope they fixed them by now...
- I'm through 2 swollen batteries (at least the touch pad coming up gives you a warning...). One the sent me for free after warranty though.
- blew a speaker in week 2
- bluetooth and wifi didn't work together (I now swapped the chip)
- fan blades are very brittle (broke one accidentally when de-dusting and then took out an opposite one so it's correctly weighted)
- these case screws... Super short and mounted at an angle. Easy to screw in in the wrong angle and without lock tight you might loose the before you notice one is coming out.
- gforce card played dead for a few weeks.
- do not use USB-C for power in. Even with a dell branded dock I get system freezes. It's only fine to charge over night or while watching a bit of youtube.
Other than that that it's my daily driver since a few years though and quite alright...
Had another 13" xps at work and the matte version had auto backlight dimming when the screen showed dark content. Super frustrating for dark themes. Had to patch in a leaked fix to remove it (risking a brick) because support wouldn't hand out one.
- I'm through 2 swollen batteries (at least the touch pad coming up gives you a warning...). One the sent me for free after warranty though.
- blew a speaker in week 2
- bluetooth and wifi didn't work together (I now swapped the chip)
- fan blades are very brittle (broke one accidentally when de-dusting and then took out an opposite one so it's correctly weighted)
- these case screws... Super short and mounted at an angle. Easy to screw in in the wrong angle and without lock tight you might loose the before you notice one is coming out.
- gforce card played dead for a few weeks.
- do not use USB-C for power in. Even with a dell branded dock I get system freezes. It's only fine to charge over night or while watching a bit of youtube.
Other than that that it's my daily driver since a few years though and quite alright...
Had another 13" xps at work and the matte version had auto backlight dimming when the screen showed dark content. Super frustrating for dark themes. Had to patch in a leaked fix to remove it (risking a brick) because support wouldn't hand out one.
I have the 9570 i9 and after 2 years had to replace the battery. Coil whine is obnoxious, fans spinning up constantly, headphone jack blew up. It's just shit. Screen is nice tho and generally is fast. Hoping the replacement battery lasts longer now that I have capped the maximum charging to 80% capacity and only have a slow charger via USB-C.
Running NixOS on it.
Running NixOS on it.
ah right, my work one also had the whining...
I didn't mind much but people next to me would notice in meetings.
I didn't mind much but people next to me would notice in meetings.
I would agree. Got 15inch XPS 9560. Loads of problems from the get go with screen, keyboard, WiFi etc. Cool whine very noisy, and support variable. Very disappointed with the “MacBook killer”, and all round a struggle to use tbh.
XPS 9380 owner here. Mine has a very annoying coil whine that's present more or less all the time (it's louder under activity). Same issue with the power supply.
Another very annoying thing is the fan, which is quite loud, and also on most of the time. I cannot even have a single tab open in a web browser, or watch a movie, without spinning up the fan.
Battery life is also nothing special, it's definitely worse than on comparable MBPs.
Another very annoying thing is the fan, which is quite loud, and also on most of the time. I cannot even have a single tab open in a web browser, or watch a movie, without spinning up the fan.
Battery life is also nothing special, it's definitely worse than on comparable MBPs.
Doubling down on this. Discovered this the hard way last year. Well documented my troubles with their 9300 (2020) models trackpad here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dell/comments/ibk4je
I also had a 9360 that ran into issues (the motherboard died) but I had bought several years of support and the issue was resolved (they sent someone over to fix it). Perhaps the support is worth buying, and the cost considered should not just be the price of the laptop, but include the cost of support.
For some reason my post disappeared... I documented the appaling issues and lack of resolution with the 2020 9300 trackpad here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dell/comments/ibk4je
https://www.reddit.com/r/dell/comments/ibk4je
Could be anecdotal, but I've had a refurbed Latitude 7270. No issues until now, I replaced the battery with a larger capacity and 32GB RAM + 1TB NVMe. It might also be like since the Latitude are enterprise laptops, while the XPS is the consumer grade line.
Also concur, XPS 9560 that randomly refuses to start and needed service three times for a defective screen. Entirely unimpressed for the cost and what I thought the brand was.
I would suggest first to get something used and cheap, like ThinkPad and try it out for a little bit. Get something for around or less then $500 and see if you can make it yours.
I got Thinkpad, I love a lot about it, it’s keyboard is supreme. Touchpad didn’t work well for me and I turned it off and use the nib.
Still for daily driver I use desktop and macbook air (m1).
I got Thinkpad, I love a lot about it, it’s keyboard is supreme. Touchpad didn’t work well for me and I turned it off and use the nib.
Still for daily driver I use desktop and macbook air (m1).
Good advice. My dad has a barely used thinkpad he wanted me to buy because he bought it for stock trading but his wife forced him to give that hobby up. But it’s heavier than a lead brick.
For $1200, the M1 MacBook Air with as much RAM you can afford.
The machine is super well built, ridiculously fast, silent (not “whisper silent”, actually “silent silent”) under any load, battery life is incredible.
It’s as big of a leap in laptop hardware as I’ve ever seen.
My job provides me with a not-awful HP EliteBook, and it’s less than a creaky and noisy toy in comparison.
The machine is super well built, ridiculously fast, silent (not “whisper silent”, actually “silent silent”) under any load, battery life is incredible.
It’s as big of a leap in laptop hardware as I’ve ever seen.
My job provides me with a not-awful HP EliteBook, and it’s less than a creaky and noisy toy in comparison.
To be honest the new MacBook Air is the model I was considering the most, mostly due to its pricing, but also because I used to own a 11’ inch low end model years ago and it was honestly the “little laptop that could”, ha.
What type of work will you do with the new laptop? Do you need x86 for anything? Do you need to use VirtualBox for example? M1 does not (and likely will never) support it
If you want a linux machine, I would strongly suggest going with https://system76.com/ rather than getting a thinkpad or dell or whatever, if one of their options work for you.
The main thing I dislike about them is too many of their laptops come with 10-keys on the keyboard, with no option to not have it.
If you're not sure if you want a linux machine or not, I can't really comment since you know better than me how much this matters.
The main thing I dislike about them is too many of their laptops come with 10-keys on the keyboard, with no option to not have it.
If you're not sure if you want a linux machine or not, I can't really comment since you know better than me how much this matters.
How are the touch pads on system76 laptops?
I’m pleased with just about every aspect of running Ubuntu on a dell XPS except that one.
I’m pleased with just about every aspect of running Ubuntu on a dell XPS except that one.
You haven't even said what you plan to do on it. What are your fave apps and why do you care about Docker? Do you actually do anything compiles to native code that couldn't target the M1 with a simple switch with your toolchain?
Merely by omission, I'm guessing that these are not serious points of contention and any MacBook will do, either an M1 if you don't mind a few bumps or get it next upgrade cycle. If I were in that boat, an M1 Mac Mini would likely be it.
Merely by omission, I'm guessing that these are not serious points of contention and any MacBook will do, either an M1 if you don't mind a few bumps or get it next upgrade cycle. If I were in that boat, an M1 Mac Mini would likely be it.
If you are are already familiar with apple software you'd be crazy not go with the new M1. Super power efficiency without compromising on power? Yes please. It's the first big advancement in a while. It's priced very well for what you get.
The only reason I'm not jumping on the M1 train is I'm die hard linux. I also prefer desktops and never work outside of a home/work office. So I can get the same/better performance with AMD Ryzen and not need to care so much about power/battery.
The only reason I'm not jumping on the M1 train is I'm die hard linux. I also prefer desktops and never work outside of a home/work office. So I can get the same/better performance with AMD Ryzen and not need to care so much about power/battery.
I have a dell latitude 7390 from work and it's an amazing little machine.
it's basically an dell xps13 but with all the ports you might need, and ram and disk that you can upgrade.
that machine really made me change my opinion about dell as a laptop vendor: you mostly have to look at the latitude line and you'll find sturdy and boring laptops that you can count on (without the flashy fancy things that are basically impossible to fix/replace if/when they break).
If only the latitude 7390 had the trackpoint... I'd throw my old thinkpad in the trashcan and I'd buy an identical unit for myself.
it's basically an dell xps13 but with all the ports you might need, and ram and disk that you can upgrade.
that machine really made me change my opinion about dell as a laptop vendor: you mostly have to look at the latitude line and you'll find sturdy and boring laptops that you can count on (without the flashy fancy things that are basically impossible to fix/replace if/when they break).
If only the latitude 7390 had the trackpoint... I'd throw my old thinkpad in the trashcan and I'd buy an identical unit for myself.
I just bought an M1 MacBook Pro (just with 8GB of ram, I wanted the high battery life as my top priority)—it’s the most incredible device I’ve ever owned. It’s so fast, I’ve almost never heard the fan spin, its battery lasts forever.
Coming from a thinkpad x1 extreme (which I still use on occasion), this machine blows it out of the water in every conceivable metric at a fraction of the price.
Coming from a thinkpad x1 extreme (which I still use on occasion), this machine blows it out of the water in every conceivable metric at a fraction of the price.
I’ve seen some inspiring stuff on r/unixporn but I feel if switch to linux I’ll miss all my favorite apps. But on the other hand I’ve heard some surprise stories with the M1 which may or may not be resolved, like Docker not working.
Overall, I’m ambivalent and ignorant about what to buy as a developer and could use some advice; my price range is around $1200. Feel free to recommend a laptop that exceeded your expectations or to just to offer some guidance. Thanks!