Me and ADHD(linkedin.com)
linkedin.com
Me and ADHD
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/adhd-me-ish-verduzco/
454 comments
I'll echo this; I'm a serial founder who was diagnosed with ADHD in his mid-forties. The stimulant medications do not make me "high", do not provide any kind of buzz. Rather, they have a moderating effect. Explaining this requires correcting the misunderstandings in the public realm of how adult ADHD presents, but in nutshell:
* The (largely mental) hyperactivity is controllable, that is, I retain my creative ideas generation and interest in new things, but I am no longer governed by it, and
* The rarely discussed hyperfocus behaviour (which I frankly regard as a superpower) is more easily snapped out of.
To the uninformed, the most paradoxical outcome is that I can take a powerful stimulant medication, lie down in bed, and fall asleep easily, when normally I'd be staring at the ceiling pondering anything from CSS to soldering and unable to sleep for the rush of ideas.
This response to medication is not diagnostic, but it is indicative that the medication I have is correct. Moreover it allows me to both retain the two traits that have made me a successful systems maker, but permits a less chaotic engagement with the neurotypical-oriented processes of modern human society, so for example I renew my passport before it expires.
I self-medicated with a variety of over-the-counter substances for decades, including nicotine, sugar, and coffee. I am super grateful for the medication since I have now dropped the nicotine and sugar.
My psychiatrist believes the condition is a) misnamed, and would be better titled "Attention Difference Disorder", and b) points out that the twin traits of rapid ideas switching and hyperfocus are only a problem in some aspects of engagement with modern society and that in an pre-agrarian society they'd be excellent traits for a hunter.
* The (largely mental) hyperactivity is controllable, that is, I retain my creative ideas generation and interest in new things, but I am no longer governed by it, and
* The rarely discussed hyperfocus behaviour (which I frankly regard as a superpower) is more easily snapped out of.
To the uninformed, the most paradoxical outcome is that I can take a powerful stimulant medication, lie down in bed, and fall asleep easily, when normally I'd be staring at the ceiling pondering anything from CSS to soldering and unable to sleep for the rush of ideas.
This response to medication is not diagnostic, but it is indicative that the medication I have is correct. Moreover it allows me to both retain the two traits that have made me a successful systems maker, but permits a less chaotic engagement with the neurotypical-oriented processes of modern human society, so for example I renew my passport before it expires.
I self-medicated with a variety of over-the-counter substances for decades, including nicotine, sugar, and coffee. I am super grateful for the medication since I have now dropped the nicotine and sugar.
My psychiatrist believes the condition is a) misnamed, and would be better titled "Attention Difference Disorder", and b) points out that the twin traits of rapid ideas switching and hyperfocus are only a problem in some aspects of engagement with modern society and that in an pre-agrarian society they'd be excellent traits for a hunter.
> The (largely mental) hyperactivity is controllable, that is, I retain my creative ideas generation and interest in new things, but I am no longer governed by it, and
As a person who is in their 1st week of medication, that is a HUGE relief. Thank you.
I have a lot more to comment here but have a quiz (engineering undergrad) to do rn..lol. But I gotta say your description of you experience is the most comprehensive thing I was ever able to relate to. I found a lot of people on r/ADHD articulating individual feelings/experiences that I felt but was not able to talk about, but yours just covered a lot more base with me personally.
> anything from CSS to soldering and unable to sleep for the rush of ideas.
That hit hard XD.
> would be better titled "Attention Difference Disorder"
Yes, a lot of people are don't like that it was named mostly based on the symptoms most annoying to the people around the person ADHD with. Many people suggest something along the lines of "Executive Function Dysregulation" to remove the "hyper" part that many people don't suffer from and include emotional-dysregulation in the symptoms.
Ok enough. time to go.
As a person who is in their 1st week of medication, that is a HUGE relief. Thank you.
I have a lot more to comment here but have a quiz (engineering undergrad) to do rn..lol. But I gotta say your description of you experience is the most comprehensive thing I was ever able to relate to. I found a lot of people on r/ADHD articulating individual feelings/experiences that I felt but was not able to talk about, but yours just covered a lot more base with me personally.
> anything from CSS to soldering and unable to sleep for the rush of ideas.
That hit hard XD.
> would be better titled "Attention Difference Disorder"
Yes, a lot of people are don't like that it was named mostly based on the symptoms most annoying to the people around the person ADHD with. Many people suggest something along the lines of "Executive Function Dysregulation" to remove the "hyper" part that many people don't suffer from and include emotional-dysregulation in the symptoms.
Ok enough. time to go.
I got diagnosed as an adult and it was life changing for me, has been on them for 5 years. Here are some tips:
1. Never take stimulants to have fun, just take them to do tasks to progress your life. ADHD doesn't prevent you from having fun, and having fun with stimulants is what makes them addictive.
2. Take regular breaks from the medication. You wont get much done the first day or two after, so don't plan on doing anything except stay at home and procrastinate those days since your inattentive symptoms will be worse than usual.
3. Sometimes try to do tasks without medication. Having worse focus helps in some way since it means you must master a topic much more before you can complete the task. My guess is that many of the PRO's of ADHD comes from this, since it means instead of just completing a task and moving on you have been forced to master the subject way more than other people with similar grades/achievements. Think of two people with similar grades, one worked hard and did lots of practice problems while the other was lazy and never worked. Who do you think understands things better? What do you think happens if the lazy guy suddenly puts in the effort? That is what happens with ADHD medication.
1. Never take stimulants to have fun, just take them to do tasks to progress your life. ADHD doesn't prevent you from having fun, and having fun with stimulants is what makes them addictive.
2. Take regular breaks from the medication. You wont get much done the first day or two after, so don't plan on doing anything except stay at home and procrastinate those days since your inattentive symptoms will be worse than usual.
3. Sometimes try to do tasks without medication. Having worse focus helps in some way since it means you must master a topic much more before you can complete the task. My guess is that many of the PRO's of ADHD comes from this, since it means instead of just completing a task and moving on you have been forced to master the subject way more than other people with similar grades/achievements. Think of two people with similar grades, one worked hard and did lots of practice problems while the other was lazy and never worked. Who do you think understands things better? What do you think happens if the lazy guy suddenly puts in the effort? That is what happens with ADHD medication.
Taking breaks simply isn't possible for many, like the withdrawals translates to sleeping 16 hours a day and not having an iota of energy to do everyday activities. It is a vicious cycle the deeper you get into taking stims and feeling normal baseline response by finding your therapeutic dose, why would you want to feel acute withdrawal symptoms and get nothing done on med 'vacation days'?
> why would you want to feel acute withdrawal symptoms and get nothing done on med 'vacation days'?
I like that though, just chilling for a day or two, do what you feel like and not what feels important. If your life doesn't give you the opportunity to do that I'd suggest try to get more flexibility, you don't need to be super attentive and productive every day. ADHD isn't a disease, it just means you are badly adapted for modern office work and bureaucracy, and having vacations where you can go back to your simple carefree self is very valuable.
I like that though, just chilling for a day or two, do what you feel like and not what feels important. If your life doesn't give you the opportunity to do that I'd suggest try to get more flexibility, you don't need to be super attentive and productive every day. ADHD isn't a disease, it just means you are badly adapted for modern office work and bureaucracy, and having vacations where you can go back to your simple carefree self is very valuable.
The other thing your are not that well adapted for is parenthood (lots of getting shit together and going someplace on a schedule) and that is harder to take a break from
Do you really need to do that on a weekend though?
Yes? Kids don’t stop just because the name of the day starts with “S”.
But most of the import places you have to visit stops during weekends.
Edit: For example, when I was a kid I spent most of my time at home playing with toys during weekends. I don't see why that would be a bad life for a kid. When they get older to 8-10 they can get around on their own so no need to baby sit them any longer, at least if you live in an European city.
Edit: For example, when I was a kid I spent most of my time at home playing with toys during weekends. I don't see why that would be a bad life for a kid. When they get older to 8-10 they can get around on their own so no need to baby sit them any longer, at least if you live in an European city.
Most people on Earth don't live in European cities. I grew up in the suburbs I couldn't go anywhere myself. Public transportation just isn't a thing around me. Not to mention all the stuff that has to be done around the house.
As for parenthood its not just about bringing your kids places. They want to play, they need to eat, they need diaper changes. Kids are a ton of work I love every minute of it, but man is it difficult.
As for parenthood its not just about bringing your kids places. They want to play, they need to eat, they need diaper changes. Kids are a ton of work I love every minute of it, but man is it difficult.
Yeah, I think it's tough for a lot of people without kids to understand what weekends are like for the first few years. If you don't completely hate your job you'll probably at least somewhat look forward to Mondays, when you can get back to work for a rest. Doesn't last forever though; I'd say I'm past that phase now with the kids 8 and 6.
Anecdote from Asian lifestyle: Weekends are usually busier than weekdays with kids. Weekdays are school and study. Weekends are extracurricular sports, tutors, music, etc.
“Playtime” is a tool used to prepare the child for the next lesson.
“Playtime” is a tool used to prepare the child for the next lesson.
> I like that though, just chilling for a day or two, do what you feel like and not what feels important.
Even non-ADHD people should be doing that. I rarely take medication on the weekends and if I do, it is strictly only one day.
The other day I allow my brain to do whatever it wants; play video games, lay in bed, work, it's free to tell me what to do. It's relaxing.
Even non-ADHD people should be doing that. I rarely take medication on the weekends and if I do, it is strictly only one day.
The other day I allow my brain to do whatever it wants; play video games, lay in bed, work, it's free to tell me what to do. It's relaxing.
Best would be not to use medication in the first place. It can have severe side effects. Better would be learning how to solve the problems on your own like controlling thoughts with meditation.
I mean, yes. People aren’t taking them for fun. That is the point, that due to problems regulating our executive functions, we can’t properly manage our symptoms on our own.
> Take regular breaks from the medication
"Medicine holidays." They're a necessary part of ADHD treatment to deal with tolerance and to ensure you still need the medication at your current dose. After you take a few days off (I do one weekend a month and one week a year) try taking a smaller dose.
Everyone's tolerance and needs can change drastically over time. If you stay at the same dose forever without breaks you'll have no concept of if the medication is still working for you - much like your 3rd point. I took 40mg/day in my 20s, down to 30mg a year ago, and now up to 35mg/day in covid times.
"Medicine holidays." They're a necessary part of ADHD treatment to deal with tolerance and to ensure you still need the medication at your current dose. After you take a few days off (I do one weekend a month and one week a year) try taking a smaller dose.
Everyone's tolerance and needs can change drastically over time. If you stay at the same dose forever without breaks you'll have no concept of if the medication is still working for you - much like your 3rd point. I took 40mg/day in my 20s, down to 30mg a year ago, and now up to 35mg/day in covid times.
> Take regular breaks from the medication
As others have said, this is definitely something you must discuss with your personal brain care specialist first.
What others have not suggested, and again this is something I have been able to arrange in conjunction with my shrink, is medication switching. Since each has slightly different benefits, I use a different medication on a workday than at the weekend or holiday/social time.
In this regard I've been fortunate to have access to a healthcare system, and specialists, that respect the individual and aren't reflexively invoking a) cookie-cutter solutions, or b) contrived histrionics about substances with abuse potential. The only raised eyebrow came from my pharmacist: "You're on both of these?" "Yes, but on different days, not together." "No worries".
NB: I'm hesitant to specify which medications, because individual responses vary dramatically, and advice gleaned from one person's experience may be exactly wrong for another.
As others have said, this is definitely something you must discuss with your personal brain care specialist first.
What others have not suggested, and again this is something I have been able to arrange in conjunction with my shrink, is medication switching. Since each has slightly different benefits, I use a different medication on a workday than at the weekend or holiday/social time.
In this regard I've been fortunate to have access to a healthcare system, and specialists, that respect the individual and aren't reflexively invoking a) cookie-cutter solutions, or b) contrived histrionics about substances with abuse potential. The only raised eyebrow came from my pharmacist: "You're on both of these?" "Yes, but on different days, not together." "No worries".
NB: I'm hesitant to specify which medications, because individual responses vary dramatically, and advice gleaned from one person's experience may be exactly wrong for another.
Everyone always says "consult your doctor", it's safe advice, but the consensus from doctors I've spoken to, books I've read, and the fact sheets that come with medication make it very clear that you can totally take a day off. This is nothing like medication for bipolarity, epilepsy, or HIV where you can't miss a dose without terrible consequences.
On the other hand, you may forget to take your medication, that can really be a problem. The rule of thumb is, if you forgot if you took it, it's because you forgot to take it.
On the other hand, you may forget to take your medication, that can really be a problem. The rule of thumb is, if you forgot if you took it, it's because you forgot to take it.
Since this may benefit others suffering from adhd, can you tell us the class of meds so at can discuss the combo with our specialists? I've never heard of switching meds this sounds beneficial to me, thanks.
They are both CNS stimulants, but one is believed to be primarily a NDRI and the other a slow-release prodrug for a TAAR1 agonist. I have somewhat dissimilar responses to each, and the variation in utility is sufficiently well correlated to the varying needs of work vs life, that I can allocate one to workdays, and the other to the weekend and holidays, and find myself maximising the benefits.
What's more, holidays from either (inadvertent or otherwise) have not provoke the catastrophic withdrawal sometimes described, for me it's more of a reversion to type.
And at the risk of labouring the point, this all comes with a whopping YMMV notice. In particular, I am not reliant on self-assessment; I am privileged enough to have access to both psychiatric and familial help that is willing, able, and qualified, to provide external observation.
What's more, holidays from either (inadvertent or otherwise) have not provoke the catastrophic withdrawal sometimes described, for me it's more of a reversion to type.
And at the risk of labouring the point, this all comes with a whopping YMMV notice. In particular, I am not reliant on self-assessment; I am privileged enough to have access to both psychiatric and familial help that is willing, able, and qualified, to provide external observation.
> Take regular breaks from the medication [...] Sometimes try to do tasks without medication
I can't and won't speak to your experience or your medical advice, but from my experience this is advice I would strongly advise considering your own experience before taking. My experience is that if I miss a dose I'll find myself, hours later, with my brain catastrophically grinding gears and in tears from a panic attack. This isn't from addiction, this is because I've actually adjusted to having a brain chemistry that isn't broken. I was just as much a wreck before I was medicated, I just didn't know and had a lot of really unhealthy self-medication techniques.
I'm well near the highest dose on my medication (Vyvanse) and I still have many of the pros and cons of ADHD. I don't need to play chicken with my brain chemicals to exercise the unique heaven and hell that's in there.
I can't and won't speak to your experience or your medical advice, but from my experience this is advice I would strongly advise considering your own experience before taking. My experience is that if I miss a dose I'll find myself, hours later, with my brain catastrophically grinding gears and in tears from a panic attack. This isn't from addiction, this is because I've actually adjusted to having a brain chemistry that isn't broken. I was just as much a wreck before I was medicated, I just didn't know and had a lot of really unhealthy self-medication techniques.
I'm well near the highest dose on my medication (Vyvanse) and I still have many of the pros and cons of ADHD. I don't need to play chicken with my brain chemicals to exercise the unique heaven and hell that's in there.
Also operating heavy machinery, your reaction time and attention span is dangerously diminished behind the wheel of a car so I simply would have to refuse activities of daily living taking a med vacation day which means I'm not getting anything done and when I have a family I will have dependants that I can't ignore at all.
> Take regular breaks from the medication.
I'm not sure this is universally necessary. When my pre-adolescent son forgets to take his medication in the morning it's immediately obvious, so it's clearly still having pronounced effect. He's been on the same dosage of the medication continuously for five years.
I'm not sure this is universally necessary. When my pre-adolescent son forgets to take his medication in the morning it's immediately obvious, so it's clearly still having pronounced effect. He's been on the same dosage of the medication continuously for five years.
I’ve tried following the “take a break once in a while” advice and it does not work for me. I started to write daily and was able to realize being inconsistent with medication led to inconsistencies for me.
I was hesitant to take any medication. I was concerned it would make me anxious or similar.
Instead, my anxiety was greatly reduced. I had the thought, “is this what normal should feel like?” I don’t like the idea of being dependent on any one tool, but I’ll use a tool if it helps.
I was hesitant to take any medication. I was concerned it would make me anxious or similar.
Instead, my anxiety was greatly reduced. I had the thought, “is this what normal should feel like?” I don’t like the idea of being dependent on any one tool, but I’ll use a tool if it helps.
> I'm a serial founder who was diagnosed with ADHD in his mid-forties.
I've seen this a lot.
A lot of parents were in complete denial about their children having ADHD, and the rampant diagnosing of ADHD at a point in time. Turns out a lot of children actually had it, and it is not the most compatible with the environment they are in and will be in.
All things did happen: rampant diagnosis, misdiagnosis, and parents in denials. But none of that means any particular child didn't have ADHD.
I've brought this reality up to other parents repeating the same things.
I've seen this a lot.
A lot of parents were in complete denial about their children having ADHD, and the rampant diagnosing of ADHD at a point in time. Turns out a lot of children actually had it, and it is not the most compatible with the environment they are in and will be in.
All things did happen: rampant diagnosis, misdiagnosis, and parents in denials. But none of that means any particular child didn't have ADHD.
I've brought this reality up to other parents repeating the same things.
Or in my case, I was a legit diagnosis during the period of over diagnosis and over medication. I hated being “different” and got off the meds as soon as I could and was in denial for the next 20 years and just brute force handled symptoms. Now after a couple years of reengaging with mental health and getting medicated, it is so much better than researching compression algorithms and ancient Roman battle formations while procrastinating my 2 month project until it is already past due and then working 18 hour days for a week to get it done.
i generally hate short, banal replies, but here we go:
this. all of this. yes. :)
this. all of this. yes. :)
I've learned never to take concerta when I'm tired, it will make me extremely sleepy and I'm liable to sleep the entire day (which is not necessarily what I want on days I have something very important to do).
I'm an extremely light sleeper and always had a very hard time falling asleep, so my guess is that concerta quiets down my brain enough that the chronic lack of sleep catches up on me.
I'm an extremely light sleeper and always had a very hard time falling asleep, so my guess is that concerta quiets down my brain enough that the chronic lack of sleep catches up on me.
Interesting. When I take Concerta (54mg) it makes me unable to sleep for the next 12 hours.
It doesn't make me any more awake/less tired than I normally would be, and I can lie down and kind of zone out, but I never completely drift off. Pseudo-meditation is the closest I can get to sleeping when I'm on Concerta.
It doesn't make me any more awake/less tired than I normally would be, and I can lie down and kind of zone out, but I never completely drift off. Pseudo-meditation is the closest I can get to sleeping when I'm on Concerta.
Counter-anecdote: I was diagnosed sixish months ago, prescribed medication about 3 months ago. The meds don't have the same high of alcohol or weed, but there's definitely an occasional deep sense of calm and wellness - one that's hard not to want, being my chronically depressed self. Definitely enough to set off my "never abuse this, it will end badly" mental alarm
Otherwise though, it checks all the usual boxes - way easier to sit still and be quiet, way easier to do the thing I intended to do when I sat down to do it, way easier to get in and out of focus. Also improved my sleep schedule a surprising amount - between it and melatonin, I've moved from 6am-3pm to ~12am-8:30am, which is wildly outside any of the expectations I've seen set for pharmaceutical remedies, and puts me firmly in 'able to hold a normal adult job without killing yourself through sleep deprevation' territory.
Honestly almost annoying it has such a positive effect since the practical difference between that and addiction are pretty minimal on a short-term basis. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of having to go without it or something filling the same brain-holes for a long period of time precisely because I'm basically worthless without it, in a way I didn't really come to appreciate until after starting medication.
Otherwise though, it checks all the usual boxes - way easier to sit still and be quiet, way easier to do the thing I intended to do when I sat down to do it, way easier to get in and out of focus. Also improved my sleep schedule a surprising amount - between it and melatonin, I've moved from 6am-3pm to ~12am-8:30am, which is wildly outside any of the expectations I've seen set for pharmaceutical remedies, and puts me firmly in 'able to hold a normal adult job without killing yourself through sleep deprevation' territory.
Honestly almost annoying it has such a positive effect since the practical difference between that and addiction are pretty minimal on a short-term basis. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the idea of having to go without it or something filling the same brain-holes for a long period of time precisely because I'm basically worthless without it, in a way I didn't really come to appreciate until after starting medication.
> occasional deep sense of calm and wellness
I've always assumed that this is the "right" response?
When people talk about stimulant medication and ADHD, the reactions tend to fall into two categories: Hypes you up, stimulates you, makes you talk fast and move fast, etc... Or calms you down, soothes you, allows you to think clearly, methodically, etc....
I bring this up because it's concerning to me that the "right" response is setting off "never abuse this" alarms. Is it the right response, or is it not?
Personally, I get that same sense of calm and wellbeing. It's why the drug works. My mind quiets down, my ability to hold attention increases dramatically, and my sense of well being ensues. I speak slower and calmer. I am less likely to argue with my spouse. Yes, I feel "good" but I've always assumed that's what its like to feel normal. Normal people get their prefrontal cortex for free, mine is unlocked through a drug.
I've always assumed that this is the "right" response?
When people talk about stimulant medication and ADHD, the reactions tend to fall into two categories: Hypes you up, stimulates you, makes you talk fast and move fast, etc... Or calms you down, soothes you, allows you to think clearly, methodically, etc....
I bring this up because it's concerning to me that the "right" response is setting off "never abuse this" alarms. Is it the right response, or is it not?
Personally, I get that same sense of calm and wellbeing. It's why the drug works. My mind quiets down, my ability to hold attention increases dramatically, and my sense of well being ensues. I speak slower and calmer. I am less likely to argue with my spouse. Yes, I feel "good" but I've always assumed that's what its like to feel normal. Normal people get their prefrontal cortex for free, mine is unlocked through a drug.
I think film and TV are partly responsible for this idea. From experience/observation euphoria (sense of wellbeing) is the primary effect of stimulants, not acting hyper. The rest are just a soup of possible effects that vary wildly.
That kind of makes me question the entire dogma of ADHD medication that stipulates a calming effect is indicative of a true ADHD patient, while a hyperactive effect is indicative of abuse / non-label use.
I’ve always assumed that because I receive a sense of calm, well being, and presence of mind that I must actually be ADHD since everyone else takes these meds and bounces off the walls.
Now I’m thinking maybe that isn’t true, and maybe I’ve rationalized taking meds because it’s easier than forcing myself to sit for hours and get quality work done. Uhg.
I’ve always assumed that because I receive a sense of calm, well being, and presence of mind that I must actually be ADHD since everyone else takes these meds and bounces off the walls.
Now I’m thinking maybe that isn’t true, and maybe I’ve rationalized taking meds because it’s easier than forcing myself to sit for hours and get quality work done. Uhg.
I see this repeated often and I've never been able to find a source for it. I do not believe stimulant medications affect people with ADHD and without ADHD differently.
> Stimulant drugs do improve the ability (even without ADHD) to focus and pay attention. One function, which is reliably improved by stimulant medications, is sustained attention, or vigilance. Stimulants improve sustained, focused attention, but “selective attention” and “distractibility” may be worsened, possibly because of a drug induced increase in impulsivity. [1]
I currently take a small dose (5mg) of Evekeo with only very mild side effects. On 30mg of Adderall XR I felt some euphoria for the first two weeks and the insomnia was pretty bad for the first week or so.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/
> Stimulant drugs do improve the ability (even without ADHD) to focus and pay attention. One function, which is reliably improved by stimulant medications, is sustained attention, or vigilance. Stimulants improve sustained, focused attention, but “selective attention” and “distractibility” may be worsened, possibly because of a drug induced increase in impulsivity. [1]
I currently take a small dose (5mg) of Evekeo with only very mild side effects. On 30mg of Adderall XR I felt some euphoria for the first two weeks and the insomnia was pretty bad for the first week or so.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/
> I do not believe stimulant medications affect people with ADHD and without ADHD differently.
Then why do you think stimulant medications were ever approved for adhd treatment?
Of course they were work differently for people with and without adhd. For people without adhd the stimulant medications do not treat the adhd. If you try to sort of isolate out that part of it... what are you expecting to find?
Then why do you think stimulant medications were ever approved for adhd treatment?
Of course they were work differently for people with and without adhd. For people without adhd the stimulant medications do not treat the adhd. If you try to sort of isolate out that part of it... what are you expecting to find?
Stimulants dont treat ADHD they merely help to manage the symptoms/deficiencies. I get frustrated with the anecdata about stims affecting people with ADHD differently, this was not the case for me, I was just as susceptable to the typical stimulant effects of my meds as much as I felt they provided a much needed boost in areas I feel Ive always been deficient in which relate to my ADHD diagnosis. I think my annoyance stems from thinking its people justifying their stimulant use, desperste to legitimise it. I have an inattentive variety, which might explain why those with the more compulsive type find the meds appear to induce almost depressive/calming response. This is still one of the normal range of effects of stimulants, ADHD or not. The calming effects and drowsiness are not unique to ADHD sufferers, but they are paradoxical resonses. Most drugs have these.
This is like saying “for people without hypertension blood thinners don’t treat the hypertension”.
Stimulants will help anyone focus, ADHD diagnosis or not.
To refocus the conversation, the specific trope I see again and again is “stimulants will make a person with ADHD calm and a person without ADHD hyper”, which I do not believe is true. If there’s a paper that provides evidence for that I’d still love to see it.
Stimulants will help anyone focus, ADHD diagnosis or not.
To refocus the conversation, the specific trope I see again and again is “stimulants will make a person with ADHD calm and a person without ADHD hyper”, which I do not believe is true. If there’s a paper that provides evidence for that I’d still love to see it.
This is a furphy. None of the comments here containing the word "calm" have, on review, made that claim. They are all personal anecdotal observations. Indeed there are also dissimilar observations. This is consistent with my experience of discussion within ADHD-specific forums, at least in part because people aren't generally so stupid as to generalise their personal experience to a universal ambit claim.
Neither is such a statement made on the product labels.
I have seen such absolute statements along such lines made in the popular press and their online equivalent, but I'd rather leave toilet paper out of the discussion.
So by all means, do not believe the statement is true, but understand that there is, in fact, no broad acceptance or community belief of such an absolute statement being true, and furthermore, rather crucially, that what you may believe has no bearing whatsoever on the veracity of individual experiences.
Consequently, even the anecdotal reports have continuing clinical relevance, because:
* Medicine is the field of treating a patient, and if the result is a better adjusted, rested, and socially engaged individual, then any such observed effect for the individual patient calls for psychiatric consideration. What such effects are not, is diagnostic, or the basis for a product claim; and,
* Science is the field of explaining phenomena, and the reports are not adequately explained by the research, in large part because the wide gamut of behaviours, symptoms, mechanisms, measures, and outcomes collectively labelled "ADHD" are themselves a very poorly explained and haphazardly classified selection of neurological variations from the population majority. This being, of course, a very common circumstance in the young field of psychiatry.
All of which means there is no such paper, and besides, no-one is even writing one.
Neither is such a statement made on the product labels.
I have seen such absolute statements along such lines made in the popular press and their online equivalent, but I'd rather leave toilet paper out of the discussion.
So by all means, do not believe the statement is true, but understand that there is, in fact, no broad acceptance or community belief of such an absolute statement being true, and furthermore, rather crucially, that what you may believe has no bearing whatsoever on the veracity of individual experiences.
Consequently, even the anecdotal reports have continuing clinical relevance, because:
* Medicine is the field of treating a patient, and if the result is a better adjusted, rested, and socially engaged individual, then any such observed effect for the individual patient calls for psychiatric consideration. What such effects are not, is diagnostic, or the basis for a product claim; and,
* Science is the field of explaining phenomena, and the reports are not adequately explained by the research, in large part because the wide gamut of behaviours, symptoms, mechanisms, measures, and outcomes collectively labelled "ADHD" are themselves a very poorly explained and haphazardly classified selection of neurological variations from the population majority. This being, of course, a very common circumstance in the young field of psychiatry.
All of which means there is no such paper, and besides, no-one is even writing one.
> Stimulants will help anyone focus, ADHD diagnosis or not.
ADHD patients suffer from hyperfocus and in some cases _need_ stimulants to snap out of this state. It is also about the ability when and which topic to focus on.
> specific trope I see again and again is “stimulants will make a person with ADHD calm and a person without ADHD hyper”, which I do not believe is true This statement is compacted and leaves out some things. I have a bad case of the inattentive adhd variant. With that came that I am really bad at filtering out sensory stimuli of any kind, sound, light, touch. They feel "loud" and prevent me from focusing for example on a conversation with a person. However stimulants increase my ability to tune out these distractions. For me stimulations were such a relieve after over 35 years to not be bombarded with sensory stimuli and finally being able to quieten this noisy mess, that made me a lot calmer - even when I am pausing medication for a few days. So believe what you want, me and others who take the medication are glad for the relieve it provides. However many websites use tropes you mentioned in a way that makes ADHD seem not very credible. It is important to differentiate between medical facts and for example websites that try to make people seek treatment by a healthcare professional. With such deseases often come secondary psychological problems that may cause a suffering person not to seek treatment. So some websites try to break through this barrier.
> specific trope I see again and again is “stimulants will make a person with ADHD calm and a person without ADHD hyper”, which I do not believe is true This statement is compacted and leaves out some things. I have a bad case of the inattentive adhd variant. With that came that I am really bad at filtering out sensory stimuli of any kind, sound, light, touch. They feel "loud" and prevent me from focusing for example on a conversation with a person. However stimulants increase my ability to tune out these distractions. For me stimulations were such a relieve after over 35 years to not be bombarded with sensory stimuli and finally being able to quieten this noisy mess, that made me a lot calmer - even when I am pausing medication for a few days. So believe what you want, me and others who take the medication are glad for the relieve it provides. However many websites use tropes you mentioned in a way that makes ADHD seem not very credible. It is important to differentiate between medical facts and for example websites that try to make people seek treatment by a healthcare professional. With such deseases often come secondary psychological problems that may cause a suffering person not to seek treatment. So some websites try to break through this barrier.
>I see this repeated often and I've never been able to find a source for it. I do not believe stimulant medications affect people with ADHD and without ADHD differently.
I'm sorry but you clearly haven't even tried to research the subject, so I'm not surprised you don't believe it. People with ADHD have been scientifically proven to have deficiencies in specific neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine and dopamine. There's multiple studies on ADHD and reward pathways you could find with a simple google search.
If you understand how amphetamine based stimulants such as adderall work, you'll know these are 2 of the major neurotransmitters that they target along with serotonin.
The entire reason for using these types of medications is to improve availability of neurotransmitters to those with abnormal production that impedes cognitive function. Sure people with normal levels can take stimulants and see effects, since these drugs don't balance levels, they just increase them. In a person with normal dopamine production it's just going to lead to an imbalance, and result in the euphoria feeling they're seeking, whether they want to admit it or not.
Edit: the article you posted doesn't even support your argument. It seems in people without ADHD, the medication resulted in increased impulsivity and distractibility.Most likely as a result of abnormal levels of norepinephrine. This is evidence of the drug having literally the opposite of it's intended effect when taken by people without ADHD.
I'm sorry but you clearly haven't even tried to research the subject, so I'm not surprised you don't believe it. People with ADHD have been scientifically proven to have deficiencies in specific neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine and dopamine. There's multiple studies on ADHD and reward pathways you could find with a simple google search.
If you understand how amphetamine based stimulants such as adderall work, you'll know these are 2 of the major neurotransmitters that they target along with serotonin.
The entire reason for using these types of medications is to improve availability of neurotransmitters to those with abnormal production that impedes cognitive function. Sure people with normal levels can take stimulants and see effects, since these drugs don't balance levels, they just increase them. In a person with normal dopamine production it's just going to lead to an imbalance, and result in the euphoria feeling they're seeking, whether they want to admit it or not.
Edit: the article you posted doesn't even support your argument. It seems in people without ADHD, the medication resulted in increased impulsivity and distractibility.Most likely as a result of abnormal levels of norepinephrine. This is evidence of the drug having literally the opposite of it's intended effect when taken by people without ADHD.
I have ADHD and am well-read on the subject. The passage I posted applies to both people with and without ADHD.
This is another passage from the same paper:
> As it remains unclear whether stimulant medication has the same effect on healthy individuals as for those with ADHD, it is possible that many reported effects of prescription stimulants in healthy individuals may stem from placebo effects.
If you have a citation that argues that stimulants affect people with and without ADHD differently I’d love to read it.
This is another passage from the same paper:
> As it remains unclear whether stimulant medication has the same effect on healthy individuals as for those with ADHD, it is possible that many reported effects of prescription stimulants in healthy individuals may stem from placebo effects.
If you have a citation that argues that stimulants affect people with and without ADHD differently I’d love to read it.
The passage you cited in the comment I am currently replying to doesn't say there is no difference. It says that it isn't clear either way. So right now we just have anecdotes until someone cites a study making an assertion either way.
Here's my anecdote which runs quite opposite yours: As another person with ADHD who has been prescribed a low dose of Adderall XR in the past, it's always been an unpleasant experience for me, to the extent that the prescription bottle said "as needed for academic work". It did help me focus for a few hours, although whether I focused on the important things or distractions was up to my non-medicinal coping strategies among other factors. Unfortunately, disruptive and uncomfortable side effects lasted far longer than the period of improved focus.
Nothing I just described matches my understanding of how neurotypical people enjoy Adderall as a recreational drug.I don't think I've ever once in my life actually wanted to take it or enjoyed the experience, not even on those occasions where I chose to take it (the last of which was almost a decade ago) because of the beneficial effects it was prescribed for.
Here's my anecdote which runs quite opposite yours: As another person with ADHD who has been prescribed a low dose of Adderall XR in the past, it's always been an unpleasant experience for me, to the extent that the prescription bottle said "as needed for academic work". It did help me focus for a few hours, although whether I focused on the important things or distractions was up to my non-medicinal coping strategies among other factors. Unfortunately, disruptive and uncomfortable side effects lasted far longer than the period of improved focus.
Nothing I just described matches my understanding of how neurotypical people enjoy Adderall as a recreational drug.I don't think I've ever once in my life actually wanted to take it or enjoyed the experience, not even on those occasions where I chose to take it (the last of which was almost a decade ago) because of the beneficial effects it was prescribed for.
Sounds like you just hadnt pushed past the physical side-effects and in to euphoric terratory...not suggesting you try. Just that I know non-adhd people who find stimulant side-effects unpleasant enough to conclude that they dont enjoy them.
Pretty poor effort response on my part, but whenever I see a claim about a drug doing anything along the lines of "balancing neurotransmitters" I think immediately that its bs. There are probably studies that confirm some people with ADHD symtoms have less dopamine or whatever, but how each of the stims result in increases of these things is simply not specific and targetted enough to make such a claim as 'balancing'.
As someone diagnosed with ADHD and taking medications for 2 years (started at age 30), but now trying to decide if it is worth it:
I believed the idea of imbalanced neurotransmitters readily, as you hear it from authoritative-sounding sources, until some reading made it clear that not only is it not true, that most serious practitioners know it is not true. I remember a talk by the author of "Mad in America" (obviously not an unbiased source) saying that when he discussed this with practitioners they said "of course we know the chemical imbalance hypothesis is not correct" and he said "well you forgot to tell the American public"... That really stuck with me.
Off topic to your comment, but germane to the thread: I keep wrestling with this, but as I move beyond just reading abstracts and summaries of the research, I have to question the idea that ADHD is easily explainable, has any single cause, or is even manageable long term with stimulants [1][2][others, but I am still reading the literature]. I am still trying to answer questions I thought were clear: Does ADHD exist in a meaningful way[3]? If so do stimulants treat it long term [4]? If so at what cost[5]? I thought these were settled questions but the more I read the less convinced I become (I know there are many studies showing different results or debating the results of studies I have linked)... I just put these thoughts out there for anyone on a similar journey. Not to undermine anyone's personal experience; I tried many meds, some helped significantly but side effects ultimately made me stop, I do not doubt people have these symptoms (I do) and that medications have an effect. Good luck to you all! I appreciate reading everyone's input.
[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510202/ [2]https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/-/media/Files/Corporate/Reports... [3]https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.c547 [4]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19318991/ [5]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2670101/
I believed the idea of imbalanced neurotransmitters readily, as you hear it from authoritative-sounding sources, until some reading made it clear that not only is it not true, that most serious practitioners know it is not true. I remember a talk by the author of "Mad in America" (obviously not an unbiased source) saying that when he discussed this with practitioners they said "of course we know the chemical imbalance hypothesis is not correct" and he said "well you forgot to tell the American public"... That really stuck with me.
Off topic to your comment, but germane to the thread: I keep wrestling with this, but as I move beyond just reading abstracts and summaries of the research, I have to question the idea that ADHD is easily explainable, has any single cause, or is even manageable long term with stimulants [1][2][others, but I am still reading the literature]. I am still trying to answer questions I thought were clear: Does ADHD exist in a meaningful way[3]? If so do stimulants treat it long term [4]? If so at what cost[5]? I thought these were settled questions but the more I read the less convinced I become (I know there are many studies showing different results or debating the results of studies I have linked)... I just put these thoughts out there for anyone on a similar journey. Not to undermine anyone's personal experience; I tried many meds, some helped significantly but side effects ultimately made me stop, I do not doubt people have these symptoms (I do) and that medications have an effect. Good luck to you all! I appreciate reading everyone's input.
[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510202/ [2]https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/-/media/Files/Corporate/Reports... [3]https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.c547 [4]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19318991/ [5]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2670101/
Medications have an effect because they are drugs and drugs work. I wouldn't read much into it beyond that. Every person will have to decide if the overall results are worth whatever cost/benefit.
The idea that the drugs "cure" or "treat" is just a social construct to justify their usage.
From first hand experience, it doesn't take much to get an ADHD diagnosis, as long as you seem credible and not drug seeking. I could ask my psychiatrist for practically any drug I wanted. It does not seem like a viable long term solution for me.
The idea that the drugs "cure" or "treat" is just a social construct to justify their usage.
From first hand experience, it doesn't take much to get an ADHD diagnosis, as long as you seem credible and not drug seeking. I could ask my psychiatrist for practically any drug I wanted. It does not seem like a viable long term solution for me.
Help me out with your superior Googling skills then please, as I've also tried to find evidence that for non-ADHD adults, taking ADHD medication in doses that it would have been prescribed, does something significantly different than it does to adults with ADHD. Happy to be shown I'm wrong, but my Googling skills had me coming up hands empty here.
Neurotransmitter reuptake behaves differently in ADHD and non-ADHD individuals. Medication affects the reuptake allowing the ADHD individual to function more normally.
Transitioning from being a badly functioning individual to a normally functioning individual is not significant to you?
This describes some of the mechanics of certain medications, most obviously methylphenidate. Its a bit much to say it restores normal function. Theres not evidence of that. The other stimulants are also much more general and result in a cascade of effects accross multiple systems in the brain. If there is a normalizing effect it is coincidental and has not been adequetely proven. This doesnt stop drugs from being approved for use from what Ive observed. Its statistics based and less about neuroscience.
This doesn't seem at all like the
> evidence that for non-ADHD adults, taking ADHD medication in doses that it would have been prescribed, does something significantly different than it does to adults with ADHD
I was asking after.
> evidence that for non-ADHD adults, taking ADHD medication in doses that it would have been prescribed, does something significantly different than it does to adults with ADHD
I was asking after.
[deleted]
This is not true.
> People with ADHD have been scientifically proven to have deficiencies in specific neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine and dopamine
Please cite your specific evidence, and make sure it is not studies that do not replicate.
> People with ADHD have been scientifically proven to have deficiencies in specific neurotransmitters, namely norepinephrine and dopamine
Please cite your specific evidence, and make sure it is not studies that do not replicate.
I would question that there is a substantial difference. Amphetamine does not necessary make you "high", even without having ADHD.
Only if you're not used to it there is this "bouncing off the fucking walls" effect. But it goes away if you know this effect already.
Than amphetamines can increase focus, and make you chill instead of hyper-active. That's why people take it to study for example actually.
After a few days of continual use only the increased focus effect stays. But it doesn't have almost any effect on one's mood any more. Actually it can even cause a significant drop in mood.
Still it's addictive. Like tee or coffee, which won't make you feel full of energy any more when your addicted, it just becomes a necessity to "function". You can show all physical symptoms of "being sky-high on speed" like pupil dilation and such, but just go to sleep for example.
I don't question that the effects of stimulants like amphetamines may help overcome some medical conditions, only that I don't think that the effects are much different in otherwise healthy individuals.
Only if you're not used to it there is this "bouncing off the fucking walls" effect. But it goes away if you know this effect already.
Than amphetamines can increase focus, and make you chill instead of hyper-active. That's why people take it to study for example actually.
After a few days of continual use only the increased focus effect stays. But it doesn't have almost any effect on one's mood any more. Actually it can even cause a significant drop in mood.
Still it's addictive. Like tee or coffee, which won't make you feel full of energy any more when your addicted, it just becomes a necessity to "function". You can show all physical symptoms of "being sky-high on speed" like pupil dilation and such, but just go to sleep for example.
I don't question that the effects of stimulants like amphetamines may help overcome some medical conditions, only that I don't think that the effects are much different in otherwise healthy individuals.
This is my position too - I’m pretty skeptical of the “ADHD people have a different response to stimulants”.
Stimulants help everyone focus, it’s why people drink coffee.
Everyone would perform better on a low dose Ritalin. I think people just rationalize a special need for them. Erdos famously took amphetamines.
I’d buy people have variable baselines, but I think everyone would benefit from stimulants if they could take them.
Stimulants help everyone focus, it’s why people drink coffee.
Everyone would perform better on a low dose Ritalin. I think people just rationalize a special need for them. Erdos famously took amphetamines.
I’d buy people have variable baselines, but I think everyone would benefit from stimulants if they could take them.
Are you sure this isn't just due to habituation? I was diagnosed ADHD in gradeschool and definitely experienced some euphoric side effects when starting on both Ritalin and Adderall. They quickly subsided after a few days/weeks on the medications but my ADHD brain still reacted that way at first. I tried taking Adderall again as an adult for a few months (after a decade being off the drug) and had a similar experience.
Habituation is definitely part of it.
Many prescribers will also start patients on very low doses and titration up to minimize the distraction of the euphoric effects.
Unfortunately, many mew ADHD patients mistake the initial euphoric effects for the medication “working” and get frustrated when the effects go away. They start chasing bigger prescriptions, shopping around for prescribers willing to give higher doses, doubling up doses and so on.
Everyone going into stimulant treatment should know that excessive stimulant dosing can worsen focus. If you’ve ever seen someone abusing stimulants, you’ll know exactly what this means. People on too high of a dose tend to be overly energetic, or overly focused on the wrong things.
Ideally, you want to be on the lowest dose you can get away with. Contrary to what is often repeated online, it’s best to take the medication continuously rather than skipping days. The medication should blend into the background while you work on improving ADHD. Don’t fall into the trap of leaning on the stimulant to solve everything for you.
Many prescribers will also start patients on very low doses and titration up to minimize the distraction of the euphoric effects.
Unfortunately, many mew ADHD patients mistake the initial euphoric effects for the medication “working” and get frustrated when the effects go away. They start chasing bigger prescriptions, shopping around for prescribers willing to give higher doses, doubling up doses and so on.
Everyone going into stimulant treatment should know that excessive stimulant dosing can worsen focus. If you’ve ever seen someone abusing stimulants, you’ll know exactly what this means. People on too high of a dose tend to be overly energetic, or overly focused on the wrong things.
Ideally, you want to be on the lowest dose you can get away with. Contrary to what is often repeated online, it’s best to take the medication continuously rather than skipping days. The medication should blend into the background while you work on improving ADHD. Don’t fall into the trap of leaning on the stimulant to solve everything for you.
> Contrary to what is often repeated online, it’s best to take the medication continuously rather than skipping days.
I don't like being on stimulants though. When I'm on stimulants I can't just let my thoughts wander and do whatever feels right at the moment, and I really like that part. If I don't have work to do I greatly prefer not being on them.
The only time I feel the need to abuse them is when I am over burdened with work and I feel I need the extra focus to complete tasks. At those times I try to do the opposite, quit taking the medicine and calm down and tell people that I don't have time to do the tasks now.
I don't like being on stimulants though. When I'm on stimulants I can't just let my thoughts wander and do whatever feels right at the moment, and I really like that part. If I don't have work to do I greatly prefer not being on them.
The only time I feel the need to abuse them is when I am over burdened with work and I feel I need the extra focus to complete tasks. At those times I try to do the opposite, quit taking the medicine and calm down and tell people that I don't have time to do the tasks now.
As always, the only real answer is to consult with your doctor. Taking breaks from medication isn't a terrible idea, especially if you hate it. The real problem is the people who associate taking the pill with getting work done, to the point that they forget how to accomplish anything without first reaching for the medication. The key is to break that connection before it becomes a craving for medication.
> I don't like being on stimulants though.
It's very possible that you're on too high of a dose, or that you'd do better on an alternative medication. There are at least 4 different classes of ADHD medication, 2 of which aren't traditional stimulants. Guanfacine is remarkably effective, for example, but it's nowhere near as popular because it's much less enjoyable than stimulants during the ramp-up phase.
> The only time I feel the need to abuse them
Yikes. If you ever find yourself feeling the "need to abuse" a medication, I strongly recommend you keep an eye on those tendencies. That's the kind of warning sign than can spiral into addiction if you ever find yourself burdened by some unfortunate life circumstances (the trigger).
> I don't like being on stimulants though.
It's very possible that you're on too high of a dose, or that you'd do better on an alternative medication. There are at least 4 different classes of ADHD medication, 2 of which aren't traditional stimulants. Guanfacine is remarkably effective, for example, but it's nowhere near as popular because it's much less enjoyable than stimulants during the ramp-up phase.
> The only time I feel the need to abuse them
Yikes. If you ever find yourself feeling the "need to abuse" a medication, I strongly recommend you keep an eye on those tendencies. That's the kind of warning sign than can spiral into addiction if you ever find yourself burdened by some unfortunate life circumstances (the trigger).
> Yikes. If you ever find yourself feeling the "need to abuse" a medication, I strongly recommend you keep an eye on those tendencies.
I don't abuse them though. Its just a thought in my head that pops up that I quickly dismiss.
> The real problem is the people who associate taking the pill with getting work done, to the point that they forget how to accomplish anything without first reaching for the medication.
Well, I couldn't accomplish anything before taking the pill. I didn't forget, I just couldn't get anything done ever. I learn stuff ridiculously fast though so I had no problems passing exams, but anything which required effort and focus like doing homework was never possible. Basically I was the best in class at exams and the worst in class at homework, to the point it prevented me from graduating. And as we know a job is more like doing homework than exam, so I never could do the things needed at a job.
I don't abuse them though. Its just a thought in my head that pops up that I quickly dismiss.
> The real problem is the people who associate taking the pill with getting work done, to the point that they forget how to accomplish anything without first reaching for the medication.
Well, I couldn't accomplish anything before taking the pill. I didn't forget, I just couldn't get anything done ever. I learn stuff ridiculously fast though so I had no problems passing exams, but anything which required effort and focus like doing homework was never possible. Basically I was the best in class at exams and the worst in class at homework, to the point it prevented me from graduating. And as we know a job is more like doing homework than exam, so I never could do the things needed at a job.
Guanfacine isn't as popular because stimulants work better for most people.[1]
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5532417/
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5532417/
started Guanfacine Recently.
Helps focus. Zero boost to energy.
It’s kind of like when it’s really late at night and your mind quiets and you get into the zone for a couple hours.
Helps focus. Zero boost to energy.
It’s kind of like when it’s really late at night and your mind quiets and you get into the zone for a couple hours.
How does it pair with coffee / caffeine?
Caffeine keeps trigging small strokes for me.
So, not well.
Factor 5 leiden, so different then most people.
Factor 5 leiden, so different then most people.
Woh... Sorry to hear that. How does a small stroke manifest?
Entire Right side goes numb, weak and icy cold.
Lose the ability to write by hand. Vision goes double. Thinking becomes very difficult. Lose balance, Various levels of confusion. A bad One made me mostly forget my kids for a couple of months.
It’s kind of between a TIA and a full stroke. I used to Get TIAs a lot, but ignored them as they lasted under 30 seconds. Now they are much worse.
Blood thinner mostly Prevent. Side effects can be brutal though. I seem to have permanently lost ability to write by hand. Thankfully typing is mostly intact.
Anything that acts as Vascular constrictors is seriously off limits for me.
It’s kind of between a TIA and a full stroke. I used to Get TIAs a lot, but ignored them as they lasted under 30 seconds. Now they are much worse.
Blood thinner mostly Prevent. Side effects can be brutal though. I seem to have permanently lost ability to write by hand. Thankfully typing is mostly intact.
Anything that acts as Vascular constrictors is seriously off limits for me.
I'm really sorry to hear that you deal with that. A reminder for the rest of us to remember how lucky we are.
I agree that seeking the lowest effective dose is ideal, but you cant get addicted to something you dont take constantly, so taking it for specific purposes and having constant breaks from it ensures you're not in the addiction cycle. Taking it daily is exactly how you'd end up requiring a higher dose. I dont think our hearts should be pumping 120bpm all the time either lol. An interesting experment would be measuring your BPM carefully on and off the meds. For me it was what got me to cut down and eventually get off them and use other management strategies. Im glad I had them, really helped me build a life where I dont need them at all.
I regularly stay off medication for a few weeks so I know what it feels like to start again with them. I don't feel any euphoria, the first day of medication is often the worst, and I hate taking them. But without medication I can't work, with medication I am a top performer. I got diagnosed as an adult since I couldn't even do easy tasks reliably and therefore couldn't hold a job.
I have ADHD, and I've been treating it with meds for over 15 years now.
> dosage should not make you feel "high" -- if anything it's almost the opposite
Even when I was young and fit, many years before I started taking any meds, my blood pressure and pulse rate were consistently on the high side. I've always had what could be called somewhat of a 'jittery' or 'high strung' personality.
In my 30s, I started taking a low dose of Ritalin, and it made a hell of a difference. For the first time in my life, I was actually, fundamentally calm. I gathered some pretty detailed data over a pretty long period of time, and there was an iron-clad correlation: when the Ritalin was in my blood stream, my blood pressure and heart rate were lower.
> most ADHD people develop tolerance to medication over long periods of time
From the beginning, in order to defend against this possibility, I always took the meds sparingly, only on work days, and not all of them. For a number of years, I organized my schedule around taking the meds three days a week. On those three days, I did most of my deeper, focused software development. On the other work days, I'd focus more on meetings, digging into operational issues, troubleshooting, basically everything except deep focused software development.
Prior to starting the meds, I had many successful years in technology at various organizations. That continued after the meds, but with one big difference: while I was able to sit down and focus before the meds, it took an enormous amount of effort and energy. I'd come home from work and immediately nap for an hour before waking up with enough mental energy to go about the rest of my evening.
On the meds, my total ability to focus was roughly the same, but it didn't take nearly as much energy. A 9 hour day at work would not leave me drained.
I've always had the fortune of having the prescribing docs break up my maximum daily meds into many small dosed tablets, which gave me a lot of flexibility.
Thankfully, after all this time, the meds still work very well for me.
> dosage should not make you feel "high" -- if anything it's almost the opposite
Even when I was young and fit, many years before I started taking any meds, my blood pressure and pulse rate were consistently on the high side. I've always had what could be called somewhat of a 'jittery' or 'high strung' personality.
In my 30s, I started taking a low dose of Ritalin, and it made a hell of a difference. For the first time in my life, I was actually, fundamentally calm. I gathered some pretty detailed data over a pretty long period of time, and there was an iron-clad correlation: when the Ritalin was in my blood stream, my blood pressure and heart rate were lower.
> most ADHD people develop tolerance to medication over long periods of time
From the beginning, in order to defend against this possibility, I always took the meds sparingly, only on work days, and not all of them. For a number of years, I organized my schedule around taking the meds three days a week. On those three days, I did most of my deeper, focused software development. On the other work days, I'd focus more on meetings, digging into operational issues, troubleshooting, basically everything except deep focused software development.
Prior to starting the meds, I had many successful years in technology at various organizations. That continued after the meds, but with one big difference: while I was able to sit down and focus before the meds, it took an enormous amount of effort and energy. I'd come home from work and immediately nap for an hour before waking up with enough mental energy to go about the rest of my evening.
On the meds, my total ability to focus was roughly the same, but it didn't take nearly as much energy. A 9 hour day at work would not leave me drained.
I've always had the fortune of having the prescribing docs break up my maximum daily meds into many small dosed tablets, which gave me a lot of flexibility.
Thankfully, after all this time, the meds still work very well for me.
> A 9 hour day at work would not leave me drained. I'd come home from work and immediately nap for an hour before waking up with enough mental energy to go about the rest of my evening.
Isn't that normal? That's certainly been my experience of work over the last decade. And I haven't even been working 9 hour days (more like 7.5 on average).
Isn't that normal? That's certainly been my experience of work over the last decade. And I haven't even been working 9 hour days (more like 7.5 on average).
Not normal.
Try one of these:
donefirst.com
helloahead.com
Try one of these:
donefirst.com
helloahead.com
>I let some non-ADHD friends try a low dose of Ritalin when I had switched off of it and had some left over, and they were bouncing off the fucking walls -- I would strongly not recommend taking stimulants unless medically necessary.
>For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.
Just so you are aware, amphetamines are and have been used widely, and successfully, by people without ADD/ADHD. It has addictive qualities for sure, but I appreciate that people are allowed to try whatever substances they would like to try.
>For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.
Just so you are aware, amphetamines are and have been used widely, and successfully, by people without ADD/ADHD. It has addictive qualities for sure, but I appreciate that people are allowed to try whatever substances they would like to try.
My fear is developing alzheimers or parkinsons disease messing with these dopamine receptors for decades, are we screwing ourselves over long term? I fear developing early onset dementia too. I saw there was a study that linked neurodegenerative disease to long term dopamine stimulants.
Can anyone break down the neuroscience for me and any meta-analyses studies on ADHD amph stims effect on early onset neurodegenerative disease?
Can anyone break down the neuroscience for me and any meta-analyses studies on ADHD amph stims effect on early onset neurodegenerative disease?
Looks like they actually protects against Parkinson's.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.06.20089748v...
I found no relationships with Alzheimer's.
The only big negative found seems to be blood pressure, but you can manage that just by keeping your weight in check and exercising regularly. I take medication and my blood pressure is at normal levels, I go for regular checkups.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.06.20089748v...
I found no relationships with Alzheimer's.
The only big negative found seems to be blood pressure, but you can manage that just by keeping your weight in check and exercising regularly. I take medication and my blood pressure is at normal levels, I go for regular checkups.
Thank you for the link. When I started seeing my current doctor, they tried scare mongering by claiming stimulants can cause Parkinsons. There is a study to back this up [1,2], but I was skeptical of it since they didn't seem to control for the fact that someone with ADHD but not on stimulants could either have less intense ADHD or perhaps have some other confounding condition.
The study authors actually mention:
"The association of ADHD patients prescribed psychostimulants with higher risk of diseases of the basal ganglia and cerebellum may reflect a more severe ADHD phenotype rather than a direct association between prescribed stimulant use and basal ganglia or cerebellum disorders."[2]
It's somewhat encouraging to see that this seems to be true and increased chance of Parkinson's is likely due to the severity of ADHD and not due to medication which helps people with ADHD be functional.
[1]: https://healthcare.utah.edu/publicaffairs/news/2018/09/adhd-... [2]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30209407/
The study authors actually mention:
"The association of ADHD patients prescribed psychostimulants with higher risk of diseases of the basal ganglia and cerebellum may reflect a more severe ADHD phenotype rather than a direct association between prescribed stimulant use and basal ganglia or cerebellum disorders."[2]
It's somewhat encouraging to see that this seems to be true and increased chance of Parkinson's is likely due to the severity of ADHD and not due to medication which helps people with ADHD be functional.
[1]: https://healthcare.utah.edu/publicaffairs/news/2018/09/adhd-... [2]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30209407/
Yeah, my first adderall came from a friend who uses it to party. I can't see how. It makes me much quieter. Partying on it is something I can't even imagine.
No kidding. I don't even mix it with caffeine because it makes me feel terrible. Alcohol is tolerable, but I still try to avoid mixing stuff. Luckily most of it's out of my system by the evenings anyways.
Oh it's amazing. Especially if you drink a lot. I wouldn't be surprised to learn there are some amplifying chemical effects when combined similar to cocaine + alcohol -> cocaethylene
Personally I am the other side of what you said lol I can't imagine that people don't feel it or don't enjoy it!
addiction science is cool and evolving. i wonder if people have different inherent dopamine regulation/Glutamate chemistry in their brains causing this difference of 'fun' [1]
and or maybe it's like cocaine or opiates where some people have to do it a couple times to 'notice' the difference. and then that difference drives your life lol
[1] https://www.intechopen.com/books/attention-deficit-hyperacti...
Personally I am the other side of what you said lol I can't imagine that people don't feel it or don't enjoy it!
addiction science is cool and evolving. i wonder if people have different inherent dopamine regulation/Glutamate chemistry in their brains causing this difference of 'fun' [1]
and or maybe it's like cocaine or opiates where some people have to do it a couple times to 'notice' the difference. and then that difference drives your life lol
[1] https://www.intechopen.com/books/attention-deficit-hyperacti...
Haha, that's how she and others I know who use it like that use it. I'm just happy she gets something out of it. I don't, and that's okay. I still have fun, just not with Addy.
Mixing uppers and downers feels fantastic when you get the dosages right. But it's absolutely horrific to be doing that to your body with any regularity.
My personal experience was that dextroamphetamine helped my (pretty severe) social anxiety by calming me. I don't know if I'd call it "partying", but I've functioned much better at social gatherings when taking therapeutic doses of it.
I've been considering trying to get a prescription for years, but I don't present most typical symptoms of ADD (maybe some inattentive ones?) so I suspect psychiatrists would be reluctant and just try to get me onto SSRIs, which have done nothing for me.
I've been considering trying to get a prescription for years, but I don't present most typical symptoms of ADD (maybe some inattentive ones?) so I suspect psychiatrists would be reluctant and just try to get me onto SSRIs, which have done nothing for me.
Part of what makes it so difficult to diagnose adult ADHD is that most adults come up with a range of adaptive behaviours to try and mitigate the effects of the disorder. So just because you don't look like you have stereotypical ADHD doesn't mean you're not compensating for them - have a think about your various coping mechanisms and whether they're covering for some of those symptoms.
> My personal experience was that dextroamphetamine helped my (pretty severe) social anxiety by calming me.
This is what Cocaine, MDMA or alcohol in reasonable doses would do to you. Stimulants generally do this to everyone.
This is what Cocaine, MDMA or alcohol in reasonable doses would do to you. Stimulants generally do this to everyone.
Yeah, that might check out too.
I was sort of responding to the claims 1) that non-ADHD people "bounce off the walls" when using stimulants and/or 2) that ADHD people couldn't use stimulants socially because it calms and focuses them rather than amping them up. Either I'm in the former category, and then claim 1 doesn't really track because it genuinely is a calming sensation for non-ADHD people (sample size 1, myself), or I'm in the latter category and then claim 2 doesn't track because stims really can help ADHD sufferers (same methodology) with socializing.
I was sort of responding to the claims 1) that non-ADHD people "bounce off the walls" when using stimulants and/or 2) that ADHD people couldn't use stimulants socially because it calms and focuses them rather than amping them up. Either I'm in the former category, and then claim 1 doesn't really track because it genuinely is a calming sensation for non-ADHD people (sample size 1, myself), or I'm in the latter category and then claim 2 doesn't track because stims really can help ADHD sufferers (same methodology) with socializing.
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I'll add that the first doctor I went to see about my issues made it clear that he was willing to prescribe me stimulants without a strong diagnosis, which frankly disturbed me greatly.
I had to make it clear I was interested in pursuing a proper diagnosis, and that I wasn't just looking for some help to "cram" for a test or something, which apparently would have been good enough for a prescription.
Getting a proper diagnosis is a royal pain in the ass, but worth it. You shouldn't be screwing around with these drugs for fun.
I had to make it clear I was interested in pursuing a proper diagnosis, and that I wasn't just looking for some help to "cram" for a test or something, which apparently would have been good enough for a prescription.
Getting a proper diagnosis is a royal pain in the ass, but worth it. You shouldn't be screwing around with these drugs for fun.
> For folks without ADHD, you should know that stimulants, like Ritalin and Adderall, do not usually cause the same response as in non-ADHD people.
I can confirm; I have ADHD and this even applies to stronger stimulants like cocaine. Cocaine doesn't do much for me, so I never understood why my friends were always bouncing off the walls while I was just chilling, like "what's the big deal with this drug". I didn't get it until I was diagnosed with ADHD and understood how our brains are wired differently.
I can confirm; I have ADHD and this even applies to stronger stimulants like cocaine. Cocaine doesn't do much for me, so I never understood why my friends were always bouncing off the walls while I was just chilling, like "what's the big deal with this drug". I didn't get it until I was diagnosed with ADHD and understood how our brains are wired differently.
Same here. In fact, when the psychiatrist was taking history in my initial screening, when I mentioned I'd taken cocaine but been disappointed with its lack of euphoric effect despite my friends enjoying it (it just made my face numb), she said that sort of previous reaction to stimulants was common in her ADHD diagnosed patients.
When I started on Vyvanse after diagnosis, the biggest effect I noticed at first was that my mind just felt quite calm compared to usual. No high or anything like that, just .. not as many uncontrollable thoughts rushing around my mind like they usually do.
When I started on Vyvanse after diagnosis, the biggest effect I noticed at first was that my mind just felt quite calm compared to usual. No high or anything like that, just .. not as many uncontrollable thoughts rushing around my mind like they usually do.
Yes, I have a good friend who stopped taking prescription medicine for his severe ADHD long ago. In school he self-medicated with lots of drugs, and the drugs never affected him the same way as others.
Now he just smokes a ton of weed everyday, but you would never know it, he's very normal, stable. Off weed? He's a mess, bouncing off the walls.
Now he just smokes a ton of weed everyday, but you would never know it, he's very normal, stable. Off weed? He's a mess, bouncing off the walls.
Same experience.
Per doctor, people with adhd don’t find adderall. addicting.
My experience aligns with this. When I take one I feel normal. Like how I should be in society. Unfortunately it causes me vascular inflammation as headaches.
So had to give it up. I use a non stimulant one now. Seems to be helping.
My daughter just started Vyvanse. Report from teachers is that her behavior is dramatically better.
My experience aligns with this. When I take one I feel normal. Like how I should be in society. Unfortunately it causes me vascular inflammation as headaches.
So had to give it up. I use a non stimulant one now. Seems to be helping.
My daughter just started Vyvanse. Report from teachers is that her behavior is dramatically better.
Real talk: the difference between medicinal and recreational use of amphetamines is about 70 to 95mg.
Take 5-30 mg of Dexedrine, you'll be focused, a bit euphoric, maybe some jaw tension and anorexia. You'll get a lot done. Mild crash? It's a risk.
Smoke a point of meth and you'll be taking apart your toaster in no time. That's 100mg for those of you who grew up on the right side of the tracks.
I'm diagnosed ADHD, by the way. I prefer modafinil over amphetamines, I find the high milder, the wakefulness promotion is a nice bonus, it lasts longer too.
But this is, to be frank, what we used to call an old wives' tale. There is no medical basis for saying that stimulants hit ADHD brains differently. It seems to be a combination of wishful thinking, and doctors choosing to not let the general public know that low doses of stimulants will improve their focus and executive function as well.
Honestly I think that's a pity. Stimulants are a useful adjunct for productive work, at a reasonable dose. America did just fine, for decades, with de-facto legal amphetamine, nor has criminalizing it done much of anything to blunt the epidemic of abuse.
The difference between ADHD and the elusive "normal brain" is that a lot of us need our meds to function. I've taken a few months off, even a few years at one point, and looking back it was a disaster. I still take weekends off whenever I can, and the lowest dose I think I can get away with.
Take 5-30 mg of Dexedrine, you'll be focused, a bit euphoric, maybe some jaw tension and anorexia. You'll get a lot done. Mild crash? It's a risk.
Smoke a point of meth and you'll be taking apart your toaster in no time. That's 100mg for those of you who grew up on the right side of the tracks.
I'm diagnosed ADHD, by the way. I prefer modafinil over amphetamines, I find the high milder, the wakefulness promotion is a nice bonus, it lasts longer too.
But this is, to be frank, what we used to call an old wives' tale. There is no medical basis for saying that stimulants hit ADHD brains differently. It seems to be a combination of wishful thinking, and doctors choosing to not let the general public know that low doses of stimulants will improve their focus and executive function as well.
Honestly I think that's a pity. Stimulants are a useful adjunct for productive work, at a reasonable dose. America did just fine, for decades, with de-facto legal amphetamine, nor has criminalizing it done much of anything to blunt the epidemic of abuse.
The difference between ADHD and the elusive "normal brain" is that a lot of us need our meds to function. I've taken a few months off, even a few years at one point, and looking back it was a disaster. I still take weekends off whenever I can, and the lowest dose I think I can get away with.
Scott Alexander recently wrote about the effects of different amphetamines, which are something he has long clinical experience with in his practice. It is well-worth the read for the curious (the history of how Adderall came to be was a genuine surprise), and it echoes much of what samatman said.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
> A lot of comments here are warning about the addictive properties of stimulant medications.
Beyond everything else you've said which is all correct and reflects my experience, I want to point out something that doesn't seem well known in the general fabric of the ADHD topic:
Addiction and substance abuse are a common trait in adult undiagnosed/untreated cases. Alcohol abuse, amphetamine abuse, you name it. I can speak from personal experience here: before I understood I had a real chemical imbalance affecting my whole life, I had used and abused alcohol to the point it significantly damaged my life, and some important relationships. I can't say for sure that wouldn't have happened if I'd been diagnosed and treated earlier, but I can say the knee-jerk reaction about medically prescribed treatment that has very little risk of abuse/addiction is inappropriate given the outcome that's much more likely without treatment.
Beyond everything else you've said which is all correct and reflects my experience, I want to point out something that doesn't seem well known in the general fabric of the ADHD topic:
Addiction and substance abuse are a common trait in adult undiagnosed/untreated cases. Alcohol abuse, amphetamine abuse, you name it. I can speak from personal experience here: before I understood I had a real chemical imbalance affecting my whole life, I had used and abused alcohol to the point it significantly damaged my life, and some important relationships. I can't say for sure that wouldn't have happened if I'd been diagnosed and treated earlier, but I can say the knee-jerk reaction about medically prescribed treatment that has very little risk of abuse/addiction is inappropriate given the outcome that's much more likely without treatment.
I've often wondered- are there solid studies on responses to stimulant medications varying over different groups?
It's definitely true that there is wide individual variance (modafinil does nothing but disrupt my sleep and make me more sleepy over time, alas), but it is less clear to me that the differences follow cleanly along boundaries like ADHD/not ADHD.
I don't have ADHD, but I am prescribed Ritalin to help with a sleep disorder. There's no high, euphoria, or hyperactivity, just a boost to wakefulness and general mental function. Descriptions of the effect from people with ADHD sound familiar, just starting from a different baseline.
It's definitely true that there is wide individual variance (modafinil does nothing but disrupt my sleep and make me more sleepy over time, alas), but it is less clear to me that the differences follow cleanly along boundaries like ADHD/not ADHD.
I don't have ADHD, but I am prescribed Ritalin to help with a sleep disorder. There's no high, euphoria, or hyperactivity, just a boost to wakefulness and general mental function. Descriptions of the effect from people with ADHD sound familiar, just starting from a different baseline.
Not really. It’s true that ADHD patients will likely react differently to stimulants, but the exact differences have been greatly exaggerated online. There are some studies showing that some people respond better to Ritalin than Adderall and vice versa. Prescribers should try switching medications if the patient doesn’t respond.
Most people will experience increased focus when first taking stimulants, ADHD or not. Many ADHD patients will experience euphoria with their first doses. The idea that ADHD people have polar opposite responses to medication is largely a myth.
Most long-term patients don’t identify with the euphoric or energizing comments because they’ve built a tolerance to those effects. There’s nothing wrong with that, because the therapeutic value doesn’t derive from inducing euphoria.
However, a drug-naive college student taking a double dose of Adderall will certainly be buzzing. For a short while. They will then suffer a rebound on the following day or days. There isn’t really a free lunch here.
The challenge is that non-ADHD people often try Adderall once, like the effects, and assume a positive response means they have ADHD. That’s blatantly wrong, but it has lead to many people pursuing unnecessary stimulant prescriptions in hopes of feeling that way every day. They are always disappointed when they discover that the long-term effects are very different than those first experience effects.
Most people will experience increased focus when first taking stimulants, ADHD or not. Many ADHD patients will experience euphoria with their first doses. The idea that ADHD people have polar opposite responses to medication is largely a myth.
Most long-term patients don’t identify with the euphoric or energizing comments because they’ve built a tolerance to those effects. There’s nothing wrong with that, because the therapeutic value doesn’t derive from inducing euphoria.
However, a drug-naive college student taking a double dose of Adderall will certainly be buzzing. For a short while. They will then suffer a rebound on the following day or days. There isn’t really a free lunch here.
The challenge is that non-ADHD people often try Adderall once, like the effects, and assume a positive response means they have ADHD. That’s blatantly wrong, but it has lead to many people pursuing unnecessary stimulant prescriptions in hopes of feeling that way every day. They are always disappointed when they discover that the long-term effects are very different than those first experience effects.
I don't disagree with anything you've written, but none of it matches my experience, which is interesting.
> Most people will experience increased focus when first taking stimulants, ADHD or not.
This isn't true, studies has shown that taking stimulants has no effects on grades for normal people. The "increased focus" they experience is just perception and not fact, it can even hurt their ability to focus. Being able to sit with a task for hours isn't "focus".
https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/news/20180726/adhd-meds-no-he...
This isn't true, studies has shown that taking stimulants has no effects on grades for normal people. The "increased focus" they experience is just perception and not fact, it can even hurt their ability to focus. Being able to sit with a task for hours isn't "focus".
https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/news/20180726/adhd-meds-no-he...
No, the article you linked specifically supports my point. In the middle of your article it says:
> The students also showed an improvement in their alertness and their ability to focus, the researchers found.
The idea that only ADHD people see improved focus from stimulants is purely false, as indicated by the article you provided. It's a dangerous misconception, as many people use this misunderstanding to self-diagnose as ADHD when they take their friends' stimulant medication and experience improved focus. We need to be clear that non-ADHD patients still feel increased focus from stimulants as well.
You are correct that over-medicating with stimulant medications can harm certain types of cognitive function, in both ADHD and non-ADHD people. Dopamine has a well-known inverted U shaped response curve for certain cognitive processes. Going too far past the optimal point can worsen, not increase the focus changes.
The study also used a strangely high dose of Adderall. 30mg of instant release Adderall (equivalent to 60mg of Adderall XR) is actually beyond the recommend prescribing guidelines for ADHD. That's the type of dose that would typically only be prescribed to patients with severe narcolepsy or severe, intractable ADHD. I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea to give it to medication-naive study subjects.
> The students also showed an improvement in their alertness and their ability to focus, the researchers found.
The idea that only ADHD people see improved focus from stimulants is purely false, as indicated by the article you provided. It's a dangerous misconception, as many people use this misunderstanding to self-diagnose as ADHD when they take their friends' stimulant medication and experience improved focus. We need to be clear that non-ADHD patients still feel increased focus from stimulants as well.
You are correct that over-medicating with stimulant medications can harm certain types of cognitive function, in both ADHD and non-ADHD people. Dopamine has a well-known inverted U shaped response curve for certain cognitive processes. Going too far past the optimal point can worsen, not increase the focus changes.
The study also used a strangely high dose of Adderall. 30mg of instant release Adderall (equivalent to 60mg of Adderall XR) is actually beyond the recommend prescribing guidelines for ADHD. That's the type of dose that would typically only be prescribed to patients with severe narcolepsy or severe, intractable ADHD. I'm not sure why they thought it was a good idea to give it to medication-naive study subjects.
The study says they believe they got better focus from it, not that they actually improved. The fact that they spent more time yet didn't get better results strongly hints at their focus actually got worse instead of better.
Also I'm not sure what your point is. Yes many people abuse stimulants in this manner and hurt their life due to it. However many people also greatly improve their life using stimulants. The existence of the first group doesn't mean much for how I need to use the medication, all I need to know is that the medication greatly improved all aspects of my life going from an almost certain failure to a top performer. If you don't see life changing improvements in grades or job performance then you probably don't have ADHD, at least not the same kind I have.
Also I'm not sure what your point is. Yes many people abuse stimulants in this manner and hurt their life due to it. However many people also greatly improve their life using stimulants. The existence of the first group doesn't mean much for how I need to use the medication, all I need to know is that the medication greatly improved all aspects of my life going from an almost certain failure to a top performer. If you don't see life changing improvements in grades or job performance then you probably don't have ADHD, at least not the same kind I have.
I have been prescribed with methylphenidate last year.
I don’t think I have ADHD but i want to take ADHD drugs to help with focusing. So I think I can be categorized as the Non-ADHD people.
I definitely feel an euphoric high when I take it, although it is less intense than MDMA, marijuana, or even alcohol.
You are correct to point out it doesn’t really help me focus more or improve performance. Its smart drug reputation is really misleading.
I found it less potent than coffee, which makes me very focused.
It’s most noticeable effectiveness is the suppression of my appetite and sleeplessness. When I am on it, I don’t feel hungry or sleepy at all.
I don’t think I have ADHD but i want to take ADHD drugs to help with focusing. So I think I can be categorized as the Non-ADHD people.
I definitely feel an euphoric high when I take it, although it is less intense than MDMA, marijuana, or even alcohol.
You are correct to point out it doesn’t really help me focus more or improve performance. Its smart drug reputation is really misleading.
I found it less potent than coffee, which makes me very focused.
It’s most noticeable effectiveness is the suppression of my appetite and sleeplessness. When I am on it, I don’t feel hungry or sleepy at all.
One of the reasons I wanted to start using them is I have over the years built too high of a tolerance and reliance on caffeine.
I couldn’t work without drinking an insane amount of coffee, which makes me sleepless.
I plan to alternate between adhd drugs and caffeine.
I couldn’t work without drinking an insane amount of coffee, which makes me sleepless.
I plan to alternate between adhd drugs and caffeine.
I tend to take weeks or months between prescriptions. It's not addictive in the slightest for me. If my family didn't benefit as much from me taking it, I would never take it again.
> ADHD people develop tolerance to medication over long periods of time
Yes! I took Vyvanse for a little over a year. It was the best thing ever at first. The effects got progressively weaker until I could no longer justify using it due to the cardiovascular risk. Now I only take it before a high pressure test or performance.
Wish I could go back in time and take that drug again as if it was the first time...
> The proper medication and dosage should not make you feel "high"
This high is correlated with how fast the stimulant enters the brain. Drugs that enter the brain quickly and in large quantities often give this subjective experience and they're more addictive because of it. Route of administration can influence this. Safer drugs with lower abuse potential are designed to be released steadily in lower quantities over a long period of time.
Vyvanse is just an Adderall that gets released slowly over a long period of time. Therefore it has lower abuse potential than Adderall.
Yes! I took Vyvanse for a little over a year. It was the best thing ever at first. The effects got progressively weaker until I could no longer justify using it due to the cardiovascular risk. Now I only take it before a high pressure test or performance.
Wish I could go back in time and take that drug again as if it was the first time...
> The proper medication and dosage should not make you feel "high"
This high is correlated with how fast the stimulant enters the brain. Drugs that enter the brain quickly and in large quantities often give this subjective experience and they're more addictive because of it. Route of administration can influence this. Safer drugs with lower abuse potential are designed to be released steadily in lower quantities over a long period of time.
Vyvanse is just an Adderall that gets released slowly over a long period of time. Therefore it has lower abuse potential than Adderall.
I have ADHD, and I use Modafinil or Armodafinil at low doses (50+50mg or 75mg, respectively).
It does not make "high" in any sense. It does not create dependency (unlike, say, coffee). If I don't take it (and I often don't), there are no negative effects, just a lack of the positive.
Metylofenidat helps me a bit, but it gives "deadline-like focus". Focus, but rush, with increased anxiety.
(Ar)modafinil gives sniper-like focus. Decreased anxiety and emotional reactiveness, while still maintaining full emotional clarity. Non-deadline flow.
The first time I took Modafinil, I didn't feel like "on drugs". I felt the opposite - for the first time distractions (like checking FB every a few minutes) were not dopamine hits I craved. I understood a lot about "other people" and things people kept telling me for two decades. It seems that being less distractible was an everyday experience.
The only downside I saw is that it needs to be taken well before bedtime (as in: morning, noon) and that it makes one way less social (immunity to jokes, increased sensory sensitivity, "OK, but what's your point" approach to conversations, etc).
Readings: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/16/nootropics-survey-resu... and https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil
It does not make "high" in any sense. It does not create dependency (unlike, say, coffee). If I don't take it (and I often don't), there are no negative effects, just a lack of the positive.
Metylofenidat helps me a bit, but it gives "deadline-like focus". Focus, but rush, with increased anxiety.
(Ar)modafinil gives sniper-like focus. Decreased anxiety and emotional reactiveness, while still maintaining full emotional clarity. Non-deadline flow.
The first time I took Modafinil, I didn't feel like "on drugs". I felt the opposite - for the first time distractions (like checking FB every a few minutes) were not dopamine hits I craved. I understood a lot about "other people" and things people kept telling me for two decades. It seems that being less distractible was an everyday experience.
The only downside I saw is that it needs to be taken well before bedtime (as in: morning, noon) and that it makes one way less social (immunity to jokes, increased sensory sensitivity, "OK, but what's your point" approach to conversations, etc).
Readings: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/16/nootropics-survey-resu... and https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil
For me, the medicine (lowish dose of adderall) gives me a sense of peace Without it my mind races and the hyper-everything is exhausting. My wife has tried it and it had the opposite effect on her. For me, the stimulant is very calming.
> The proper medication and dosage should not make you feel "high" -- if anything it's almost the opposite. You get some clarity, an ability to direct your focus without a thousand distractions a minute, and perhaps even a sense of time.
Is this not aso a common effect on the non a.d.h.d. sufferer,? which is why it is so commonly taken on exams, as a means to increase performance.
> For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.
Avoid it more than any other recreational drug?
Is this not aso a common effect on the non a.d.h.d. sufferer,? which is why it is so commonly taken on exams, as a means to increase performance.
> For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.
Avoid it more than any other recreational drug?
> For myself, taking even high doses of a Adderall regularly produces no result -- might as well be taking sugar pills. I have to take them periodically (a few times a week at most) to get any sort of benefit.
My girlfriend is on a slow release ADHD medication, once a day; for her, it has to be a daily thing because else it just stops working. Is adderall a slow release one? May be more beneficial.
That said, what effect are you expecting? She describes the main effect of her medication to be a mood stabilizer.
My girlfriend is on a slow release ADHD medication, once a day; for her, it has to be a daily thing because else it just stops working. Is adderall a slow release one? May be more beneficial.
That said, what effect are you expecting? She describes the main effect of her medication to be a mood stabilizer.
Second the comment on Ritalin among non-ADHD. Couldn't tell the difference between that and illicit speed on the street. Dry mouth, manic, euphoric.
ADHD medications can have severe side effects like psychosis. I would also recommend to avoid them if possible. I myself don’t have ADHD but I know several psychosis cases from people diagnosed with ADHD. It makes a lot of sense that this medication is hard to get in most countries.
For me, Ritalin works as it should, just focusing. dextroamphetamine on the other hand gets me all hyped up.
The difference between people is so subtle and so profound. For me, dextroamphetamine brings a still and composed calmness upon the world. Not euphora, just a calmness.
How about heart rate and blood pressure?
I get the same reaction as you - I'm calm, still, patient. Much more "present" with my wife and far less likely to argue. If I need to plan, or organize something, the initial feeling of "oof" is no longer there. I just do the task.
I have however noticed that my heart rate (normally in the low 50s) hovers in the low 60s. I assume (but have not checked) that my blood pressure is also increasing. Both of these things are concerning.
I get the same reaction as you - I'm calm, still, patient. Much more "present" with my wife and far less likely to argue. If I need to plan, or organize something, the initial feeling of "oof" is no longer there. I just do the task.
I have however noticed that my heart rate (normally in the low 50s) hovers in the low 60s. I assume (but have not checked) that my blood pressure is also increasing. Both of these things are concerning.
Blood pressure is normal; Slightly lower than before. Heart rate is up a bit - from about 60 to about 67 resting heart rate - BUT the two years I have been prescribed lisdexamfetamine have brought exceptionally and unusually stressful personal events and I've unfortunately not been able to exercise as much as before. The medicine has certainly helped us cope, however!
> Minimizing menial tasks. Menial tasks really suck. I know everyone must hate doing these, but to put it into perspective, I would rather do 20 hours of really really hard work on a tough project than do 5 hours of menial tasks
Interesting. I have ADHD (inattentive subtype) and am quite the opposite. My apartment is never cleaner than when I have an extremely important, open-ended project with multiple stakeholders to address. Seriously, I end up dusting the screws that hold up the door frames.
Interesting. I have ADHD (inattentive subtype) and am quite the opposite. My apartment is never cleaner than when I have an extremely important, open-ended project with multiple stakeholders to address. Seriously, I end up dusting the screws that hold up the door frames.
The pop-science definition of ADHD has started to stray very far from the science.
There’s a growing tendency for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to try to explain all of their mental habits and preferences through the lens of ADHD. Some times they have helpful feedback for other people with similar habits, but other times they just paint ADHD with an overly broad brush. They often have unrealistically lofty ideals of what a non-ADHD person looks like, or describe basic human nature as ADHD (for example: it's perfectly normal if you'd prefer to play video games than do your homework. We've all been there, ADHD or not)
One thing I would recommend: Don’t let an ADHD diagnosis define your personality. A diagnosis is simply a guide map for treatment. It shouldn’t become a stereotype that defines you as a person. Use the diagnosis to learn techniques to overcome difficulties, but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth.
There’s a growing tendency for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to try to explain all of their mental habits and preferences through the lens of ADHD. Some times they have helpful feedback for other people with similar habits, but other times they just paint ADHD with an overly broad brush. They often have unrealistically lofty ideals of what a non-ADHD person looks like, or describe basic human nature as ADHD (for example: it's perfectly normal if you'd prefer to play video games than do your homework. We've all been there, ADHD or not)
One thing I would recommend: Don’t let an ADHD diagnosis define your personality. A diagnosis is simply a guide map for treatment. It shouldn’t become a stereotype that defines you as a person. Use the diagnosis to learn techniques to overcome difficulties, but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth.
"Don’t let an ADHD diagnosis define your personality."
"... but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth"
I totally understand this perspective and I do think it's a healthy one, but, where do you draw the line?
I've been diagnosed with ADHD but personally hate the diagnosis. I don't want to be viewed through that lens, nor do I want to view myself that way.
That said, there's just no denying that I'm a different (better) person when I'm treating the condition. I get more work done. I fight less with my wife. I'm way less frustrated angry on a daily basis, etc. Small tasks that normally seem like mountains, become mole hills.
I've done counseling and I've done exercise, diet, sleep. I've seen the most dramatic results when I've just accepted I have ADHD and taken medication. Yet comments like yours re-ignite my desire quit taking the medications, and return to what feels normal ... even if feeling normal was so bad for me.
What I'm trying to say is ... I think some people DO need to lean into the diagnosis. Accept that it's part of their life. If treatment improves your life, don't shy away from it.
I don't know. I'm still just trying to figure it all out myself. I hate the idea of being "ADHD" but I'm starting to form the belief that I need to do what's right for my future, and my family, even if it means accepting I have a condition that requires something as dramatic as taking medication.
"... but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth"
I totally understand this perspective and I do think it's a healthy one, but, where do you draw the line?
I've been diagnosed with ADHD but personally hate the diagnosis. I don't want to be viewed through that lens, nor do I want to view myself that way.
That said, there's just no denying that I'm a different (better) person when I'm treating the condition. I get more work done. I fight less with my wife. I'm way less frustrated angry on a daily basis, etc. Small tasks that normally seem like mountains, become mole hills.
I've done counseling and I've done exercise, diet, sleep. I've seen the most dramatic results when I've just accepted I have ADHD and taken medication. Yet comments like yours re-ignite my desire quit taking the medications, and return to what feels normal ... even if feeling normal was so bad for me.
What I'm trying to say is ... I think some people DO need to lean into the diagnosis. Accept that it's part of their life. If treatment improves your life, don't shy away from it.
I don't know. I'm still just trying to figure it all out myself. I hate the idea of being "ADHD" but I'm starting to form the belief that I need to do what's right for my future, and my family, even if it means accepting I have a condition that requires something as dramatic as taking medication.
> I've been diagnosed with ADHD but personally hate the diagnosis. I don't want to be viewed through that lens, nor do I want to view myself that way.
Totally with you on this. And I think I understand why some people make it their entire personality, but that just feels all wrong to me. To be honest, I regret telling anyone at all about it (outside of anonymised discussions such as this).
The way I see it, it's okay to feel really bad about being afflicted with this condition, and coy about acknowledging it publicly, while still quietly continuing to take the medication to mitigate it somewhat.
But it's difficult to come to terms with even so. I sincerely hope you find peace of mind.
Totally with you on this. And I think I understand why some people make it their entire personality, but that just feels all wrong to me. To be honest, I regret telling anyone at all about it (outside of anonymised discussions such as this).
The way I see it, it's okay to feel really bad about being afflicted with this condition, and coy about acknowledging it publicly, while still quietly continuing to take the medication to mitigate it somewhat.
But it's difficult to come to terms with even so. I sincerely hope you find peace of mind.
> There’s a growing tendency for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to try to explain all of their mental habits and preferences through the lens of ADHD.
I've noticed this a lot on the ADHD forums. Agreed, it's uncomfortable to read.
Personally, I'm very embarrassed and ashamed of my ADHD (hence the throwaway account here), so I try to minimise what I consider its scope as much as I can. When I was eventually diagnosed, even though I sought out being investigated for ADHD, I was disappointed! I said to the psychiatrist, I was hoping you'd tell me it's something else. But no, it was ADHD, and the medication does help.
Also if I am explaining it to someone for whatever reason, I'll make sure to point out that it might be a reason for some things, but not an excuse. I hate the thought of not taking responsibility. I mean, it's still my broken brain at fault, even if I didn't break it myself.
I've noticed this a lot on the ADHD forums. Agreed, it's uncomfortable to read.
Personally, I'm very embarrassed and ashamed of my ADHD (hence the throwaway account here), so I try to minimise what I consider its scope as much as I can. When I was eventually diagnosed, even though I sought out being investigated for ADHD, I was disappointed! I said to the psychiatrist, I was hoping you'd tell me it's something else. But no, it was ADHD, and the medication does help.
Also if I am explaining it to someone for whatever reason, I'll make sure to point out that it might be a reason for some things, but not an excuse. I hate the thought of not taking responsibility. I mean, it's still my broken brain at fault, even if I didn't break it myself.
Just to add to your comment, another trend is that people, when mentioning they have a condition like ADHD, OCD, etc, others will pitch in with an "Oh I'm a little OCD too, tee hee!" or "Everybody can be a bit down sometimes!", which is one, not helpful, and two, showing ignorance.
A lot of conditions are normal human traits, but amplified / exaggerated. This makes them understandable to neurotypical people, but also easily trivialized and misunderstood.
A lot of conditions are normal human traits, but amplified / exaggerated. This makes them understandable to neurotypical people, but also easily trivialized and misunderstood.
I've have created a Hacker News account specifically for the purpose of agreeing with you. Your post really nails it.
I follow some ADHD accounts on Twitter, and to parody a little:
"A dog with floppy ears barked at me. It think this is a typical ADHD trait - dogs with floppy ears never bark at neurotypicals."
I follow some ADHD accounts on Twitter, and to parody a little:
"A dog with floppy ears barked at me. It think this is a typical ADHD trait - dogs with floppy ears never bark at neurotypicals."
For me, it is the "open-ended" part of a project that really ends up screwing me. If I don't have a definitive task/goal to work towards that is when I start to procrastinate
For me the worst part is when I have a combination of short urgent tasks and an open ended one. The open ended task always ends up being pushed aside
Man, I am the same way. How have you coped with this? I work in a pretty open-ended environment without a lot of processes, so you can imagine it has been a struggle for me. I have tried to create tickets for myself but I seem to also struggle with defining the "done" state.
Same boat. It's not a magic cure, but my semi-okay-coping mechanism is to make daily to-do lists.
The key though, is not just "making to-do lists".... it's right-sizing the items on them.
Every task should have a finite end state and (this is crucial) shouldn't be longer than 15-20 minutes or so. If they are longer than that, it almost certainly needs to be broken down into constituent tasks.
So even something like "clean my office" probably needs to be broken down a little more -- when I'm on my game I break it down into "vac office", "dust office", "organize desk drawer", etc.
This pairs nicely with the "Pomodoro method" if you've ever tried it.
The key though, is not just "making to-do lists".... it's right-sizing the items on them.
Every task should have a finite end state and (this is crucial) shouldn't be longer than 15-20 minutes or so. If they are longer than that, it almost certainly needs to be broken down into constituent tasks.
So even something like "clean my office" probably needs to be broken down a little more -- when I'm on my game I break it down into "vac office", "dust office", "organize desk drawer", etc.
This pairs nicely with the "Pomodoro method" if you've ever tried it.
Not super related, but a friend of mine recently said "If you're the kind of person who is satisfied by a large task list, you shouldn't make todos. If you're the kind of person who hates them, you should."
It seems obvious after it being mentioned, but I noticed a useful corollary: a list of done tasks actually makes me unhappy. So I avoid todo pages where a done list is visible. Hiding done tasks (i.e. archiving done cards on Trello, deleting a row on your todo list instead of strikethrough), etc. has led me to use it better.
This isn't your problem, clearly, but just wanted to share a useful tip.
It seems obvious after it being mentioned, but I noticed a useful corollary: a list of done tasks actually makes me unhappy. So I avoid todo pages where a done list is visible. Hiding done tasks (i.e. archiving done cards on Trello, deleting a row on your todo list instead of strikethrough), etc. has led me to use it better.
This isn't your problem, clearly, but just wanted to share a useful tip.
My only strategy for that problem is to break things down as much as possible into subtasks. That helps because I'm at least more likely to get something done if there's a list of things I can weigh the terribleness of. As the GP comment said that they'd clean their apartment rather than get work done, I'll do the tasks with more clarity to procrastinate doing the tasks with more ambiguity. Eventually, doing the tasks with clarity help clear up the ambiguity in the others.
Maybe the concept of the "wall of awful" will help you understand it more. I struggle with it too though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo08uS904Rg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo08uS904Rg
So much. Open-ended or poorly defined projects can really spiral into attentive dysphoria for me. Productive procrastination – room cleaning and the like – is particularly appealing in that state, just to feel like I'm making progress on something.
The best manager I ever had set it up like so, he'd go:
Here's a large, open-ended problem I want you to solve this quarter. I'll secretly wait while you fix a thousand other unrelated problems that make our business better despite making no visible progress on the open-ended problem. Then I'll reframe your work to show management that the thousand other things you improved are more valuable than the open-ended problem, and get you promoted.
I miss that guy.
Here's a large, open-ended problem I want you to solve this quarter. I'll secretly wait while you fix a thousand other unrelated problems that make our business better despite making no visible progress on the open-ended problem. Then I'll reframe your work to show management that the thousand other things you improved are more valuable than the open-ended problem, and get you promoted.
I miss that guy.
Oh, I know this problem. Happens quite often.
A technique I use is to break down the project into smaller pieces. What's the smallest well-defined task/goal I can work toward. Even if it's just setting up the repo, or writing out a README. It's amazing how often this little step can help kick things off.
A technique I use is to break down the project into smaller pieces. What's the smallest well-defined task/goal I can work toward. Even if it's just setting up the repo, or writing out a README. It's amazing how often this little step can help kick things off.
Definitely. It is one of the reasons I enjoy working in a 2 week sprint setting (all other reasons aside). It forces me to really break tasks down to actionable items
I struggle when there isn’t enough work to do, and when I do scrounge up work, it ends up being non-meaningful work.
My completely ignorant theory is that it's still about "can only do the things I really like to do" part of ADHD. I also like to clean up my place because of the sense of accomplishment that it gives me (especially when at work I don't feel like I'm making progress because I spent all day coaching/meetings/etc) but not everyone might feel like that, I can definitely think of someone with ADHD that doesn't like to clean up the same way I don't like plan my meals (please don't make me do it).
I'm like the OP. The distinction I make is:
1) A tough project can be engrossing. Getting started is always tough, but after that it's relatively easy to keep up momentum.
2) Menial tasks are not engrossing and are usually quick, so they require a level of attention control to stay focused on them that I'm just not capable of. It's like "getting started" over and over.
1) A tough project can be engrossing. Getting started is always tough, but after that it's relatively easy to keep up momentum.
2) Menial tasks are not engrossing and are usually quick, so they require a level of attention control to stay focused on them that I'm just not capable of. It's like "getting started" over and over.
That's exactly why menial tasks suck, they are a procrastination enabler vs unable to get into "flow" to accomplish more interesting/complicated tasks.
I think the parent commenter would say that open ended nature of the task makes it not menial - so they procrastinate because it's very hard to get started. Its discrete, not a single ticket that's easier to focus on and get info flow state with.
Yeah I feel like I hide in those tasks to achieve a sense of accomplishment while also avoiding the uncomfortable task I should be working on. Then again, those tasks help me pass the time until the deadline for the important task is close enough to generate the fear/anxiety necessary for me to work on it.
And it's so satisfying to something that gives you physical feedback (doing dishes, vacuuming). Most of my day is spend doing math or programming so all my works takes place on a computer, a piece of paper, or in my head.
I'm 100% the same - I once accidentally trained for a marathon.
Not surprised at all that caffeine helps. ADHD is, bar none, the mental health diagnosis most amenable to medication. Specifically, stimulant therapy. There's no principled distinction between self-medicating and prescriptions here, other than various legal risks, costs, and side effect profiles. Caffeine is particularly poorly suited to this due to adaptation and anxiety, but it's certainly something, especially if you aren't a regular user. Amphetamine is the first-line treatment choice for a reason, and it makes a night-and-day difference tbh.
Coffee consumption was actually one of the questions that I was asked when my therapist first suspected that I had ADHD. I used to drink 5+ cups per day (especially workdays) while feeling fairly little effect from it. I'm now on medication which works an order of magnitude better for managing my symptoms, and I rarely drink more than 1 cup of coffee per day.
It's also worth noting that ADHD often comes with other mental health comorbidities; in my case, it exacerbated my depression. I would often fall into a spiral of inability to focus -> feeling bad about myself for not completing work that I was generally more than capable of doing -> even less ability to focus. I still have depression, but starting on ADHD medication all-but-removed my most frequent trigger.
It's also worth noting that ADHD often comes with other mental health comorbidities; in my case, it exacerbated my depression. I would often fall into a spiral of inability to focus -> feeling bad about myself for not completing work that I was generally more than capable of doing -> even less ability to focus. I still have depression, but starting on ADHD medication all-but-removed my most frequent trigger.
> I would often fall into a spiral of inability to focus -> feeling bad about myself for not completing work that I was generally more than capable of doing -> even less ability to focus. I still have depression, but starting on ADHD medication all-but-removed my most frequent trigger.
I had the same issue!
I told my prescribing doctor this same thing and she trusted me enough to try out Adderall before SSRIs again. Turns out my hypothesis of my depression + anxiety largely being tied to my sense of productivity was right.
After going in for an EKG check-up on orders of the prescribing doctor, I found a fairly benign heart issue that the cardiologist believes may be the cause of my "panic attacks" (eg: my attacks may be heart racing -> panic, not panic -> heart racing!)
All of that from just treating "I feel bad because I get nothing done".
I had the same issue!
I told my prescribing doctor this same thing and she trusted me enough to try out Adderall before SSRIs again. Turns out my hypothesis of my depression + anxiety largely being tied to my sense of productivity was right.
After going in for an EKG check-up on orders of the prescribing doctor, I found a fairly benign heart issue that the cardiologist believes may be the cause of my "panic attacks" (eg: my attacks may be heart racing -> panic, not panic -> heart racing!)
All of that from just treating "I feel bad because I get nothing done".
is it normal to get an EKG in relation to ADHD medication? I'm in your boat too. I've tried antidepressants with no results so I'm going to see a doctor about ADHD this time.
>is it normal to get an EKG in relation to ADHD medication?
Not sure. My provider asked me to get one done. I talked to the cardiologist about this and she didn't seem surprised it was requested nor that I was the first to get it done.
Not sure. My provider asked me to get one done. I talked to the cardiologist about this and she didn't seem surprised it was requested nor that I was the first to get it done.
What's the comparative stimulant power between black tea and coffee?
I've been toying with the notion that I may be having an undiagnosed ADHD for a while now (I've noticed that about 70% of the stuff in any ADHD thread on HN, like this here, tends to reflect my life or at least resonate with me...). I became more confident of that when, at one point recently, I realized - hey, I'm drinking some 10+ cups of black tea every day, and I did that since being single-digit years old. Turns out I may have been unconsciously self-medicating for as long as I remember.
BTW. I suffered from the same type of spiral you described in the past. I've managed to mostly overcome it for now, though I took it from the other end - I've manged to minimize "feeling bad about myself for not completing work that I was generally more than capable of doing", to the point of preventing the positive feedback loop. I wish I could do something about the focus part, though.
I've been toying with the notion that I may be having an undiagnosed ADHD for a while now (I've noticed that about 70% of the stuff in any ADHD thread on HN, like this here, tends to reflect my life or at least resonate with me...). I became more confident of that when, at one point recently, I realized - hey, I'm drinking some 10+ cups of black tea every day, and I did that since being single-digit years old. Turns out I may have been unconsciously self-medicating for as long as I remember.
BTW. I suffered from the same type of spiral you described in the past. I've managed to mostly overcome it for now, though I took it from the other end - I've manged to minimize "feeling bad about myself for not completing work that I was generally more than capable of doing", to the point of preventing the positive feedback loop. I wish I could do something about the focus part, though.
Google tells me that coffee has about twice as much caffeine as black tea (depending on the blend) so your 10+ cups of tea are probably similar to my previous 5+ cups of coffee. Obviously I'm not a doctor and I can't diagnose anyone over the internet, but if you're drinking that much and it doesn't have you wired or give you trouble sleeping then you might consider talking with your doctor about ADHD.
> Coffee consumption was actually one of the questions that I was asked when my therapist first suspected that I had ADHD. I used to drink 5+ cups per day (especially workdays) while feeling fairly little effect from it.
Did you get a big boost when you first started with it that reduced as you developed tolerance with habitual use?
I've always been pretty careful with caffeine consumption in order to avoid tolerance, because I didn't want to get into a state where all it did was boost me back to my "normal" (i.e. feeling crappy until I got my coffee, and having to use increasing amounts to get past my baseline).
Did you get a big boost when you first started with it that reduced as you developed tolerance with habitual use?
I've always been pretty careful with caffeine consumption in order to avoid tolerance, because I didn't want to get into a state where all it did was boost me back to my "normal" (i.e. feeling crappy until I got my coffee, and having to use increasing amounts to get past my baseline).
Not really. Even when I first started drinking coffee (around high school) I never got much of a boost from it. I think your caution makes sense for folks with neurotypical brains, but even now (drinking 0-1 cups per day) I drink it for the flavor and/or social aspects, not because it does much for my energy or productivity.
I would down an energy drink when needing to do long drives and would have a calm, almost euphoric, feeling. Definitely not stimulating.
Similar to the feeling (although much weaker) hydrocodone gave me after I had oral surgery.
Similar to the feeling (although much weaker) hydrocodone gave me after I had oral surgery.
I unknowingly self-medicated with ludicrous amounts of coffee before my diagnosis, but my tolerance got way too high.
After that, realizing that my preferred decongestant was not only helping my cold symptoms, but also allowing me to pay attention when people were talking and complete plans in a "this seems like that thing other people are really good at, but I'm not" kind of way... that was a major tell.
After that, realizing that my preferred decongestant was not only helping my cold symptoms, but also allowing me to pay attention when people were talking and complete plans in a "this seems like that thing other people are really good at, but I'm not" kind of way... that was a major tell.
> After that, realizing that my preferred decongestant was not only helping my cold symptoms, but also allowing me to pay attention when people were talking and complete plans in a "this seems like that thing other people are really good at, but I'm not" kind of way... that was a major tell.
Interesting. Was it pseudoephedrine? I took Allegra-D every day in high school and college to manage allergies as wells as colds and sinus infections. (I hear that's not advisable, but I didn't know any better then, and somehow my allergist didn't either.) I wonder if it was helping me concentrate also.
I've never been diagnosed with ADHD, but many of the things people are describing here are familiar. Overall I've been pretty successful in life despite this, but I've had my ups and downs. The pandemic has been a down; I'm really struggling with concentration, so much so that I left my job and am taking a sabbatical before finding another. There are certainly valid reasons it's been hard (e.g., I have two young kids, went entirely without daycare for a while, and am helping my son with online kindergarten now) but they seem to affect me much more than my wife, whether that's due to undiagnosed ADHD, anxiety, the different natures of our work, burn-out, or some other factor.
Interesting. Was it pseudoephedrine? I took Allegra-D every day in high school and college to manage allergies as wells as colds and sinus infections. (I hear that's not advisable, but I didn't know any better then, and somehow my allergist didn't either.) I wonder if it was helping me concentrate also.
I've never been diagnosed with ADHD, but many of the things people are describing here are familiar. Overall I've been pretty successful in life despite this, but I've had my ups and downs. The pandemic has been a down; I'm really struggling with concentration, so much so that I left my job and am taking a sabbatical before finding another. There are certainly valid reasons it's been hard (e.g., I have two young kids, went entirely without daycare for a while, and am helping my son with online kindergarten now) but they seem to affect me much more than my wife, whether that's due to undiagnosed ADHD, anxiety, the different natures of our work, burn-out, or some other factor.
What decongestant was that? Amphetamines originally entered the market as decongestants, and it was the observation that these drugs allowed unruly kids to focus that lead to modern ADHD medication.
Yes, but in the long run amphetamines will do significant damage to your health.
Only if abused at high doses. I was recently diagnosed with ADD and the adderall XR is incredibly helpful, and at my 10mg dose on an “as needed” basis (since I don’t need productivity every day) I’m not concerned at all.
I do 3-5mg IR so it has minimum impact on health but take on an empty stomach so its effective. My goal is to feel it just enough to get a little help.
How long have you been taking it? The cracks will show years down the road, not initially.
Long term studies on ADHD patients do not support this hypothesis.
Curious if you have any sources for this? I have heard this before and struggled to find data that backs it up.
I have heard it can be bad for oral health due to dehydration. Not sure how much of that ends up being a feeling versus physically needing water, and how dehydration affects oral health, or exactly how I would connect all of the dots there (or if I even should attempt it), but it seems reasonable.
It reduces saliva production. Saliva helps play a protective role in terms of oral health in basically all aspects, from my understanding.
It's possible for it to lead to increased clenching/grinding of teeth.
With that said....a decent diet and doing all the things you're supposed to be doing anyway in terms of oral hygiene and you ought to be fine. It's not a "you're going to ruin your mouth", it's a "pay more attention to this".
Been taking Adderall XR for >10 years, no cavities or other dental concerns personally speaking.
It's possible for it to lead to increased clenching/grinding of teeth.
With that said....a decent diet and doing all the things you're supposed to be doing anyway in terms of oral hygiene and you ought to be fine. It's not a "you're going to ruin your mouth", it's a "pay more attention to this".
Been taking Adderall XR for >10 years, no cavities or other dental concerns personally speaking.
> Not sure how much of that ends up being a feeling versus physically needing water
it does dry out your oral/nasal cavity. It can cause your body to produce mucus to compensate. I commonly feel like swallowing is slow as if there is a thin layer of mucus lining my throat. Even had yellow mucus drip out of my nose as if it were a nose bleed (happened 3-4 occasions), which comes from having a sinus infection.
This is one of the reasons I switch to micro-dosing on an empty stomach and supplementing with coffee to limit exposure to amphetamines.
it does dry out your oral/nasal cavity. It can cause your body to produce mucus to compensate. I commonly feel like swallowing is slow as if there is a thin layer of mucus lining my throat. Even had yellow mucus drip out of my nose as if it were a nose bleed (happened 3-4 occasions), which comes from having a sinus infection.
This is one of the reasons I switch to micro-dosing on an empty stomach and supplementing with coffee to limit exposure to amphetamines.
I personally took it for a long time, have a few pharmacists in my family. General life experience along with many examples witnessed around me lead me to believe that there is no free lunch. The focus you get comes at a price
A pharmacist does not equal a neuroscientist studying effects of long-term stimulant use on developing early onset neurodegenerative disease in any way, shape, or form. Sorry but you need to look at meta-analyses on on the topic and use that as a reference to prove anything to HN crowd at a minimum when making these bold unsubstantiated fear-mongering claims.
Yes but they interact with the same customers over long periods of time. I hate to tell you, but people can come to conclusions about the world. Its not a walled garden. I can see with my own two eyes what happens.
Go ahead and take legal cocaine though, hope your post helps you sleep at night
Go ahead and take legal cocaine though, hope your post helps you sleep at night
Correlation =\ causation and exactly what objective conclusion can you draw from a ~5 minute encounter every month as a pharmacist seeing random customers who can go to any pharmacy to get their meds?
I get a new pharmacist every time I fill a script and I never share one iota of my diagnoses with them, they just fill the Rx and advise on contraindications and unusual doses they see.
Can you see into a person's brain with your own 'two eyes' as well? A neuroscientist can actually see our neural activity with fMRI and other tools to study brain science unlike your pharmacist buddies and yourself talking to random customers for 5 minutes in a grocery store.
I get a new pharmacist every time I fill a script and I never share one iota of my diagnoses with them, they just fill the Rx and advise on contraindications and unusual doses they see.
Can you see into a person's brain with your own 'two eyes' as well? A neuroscientist can actually see our neural activity with fMRI and other tools to study brain science unlike your pharmacist buddies and yourself talking to random customers for 5 minutes in a grocery store.
No need to be rude. Just because you see something doesn't mean your getting the whole picture.
Do you know their entire medical history? How severe the ADHD is? Any other issues they are treating or not treating? If you can point to a study to back up what you are saying then by all means go for it. Otherwise all you have is anecdotal evidence and pretty weak evidence at that.
Do you know their entire medical history? How severe the ADHD is? Any other issues they are treating or not treating? If you can point to a study to back up what you are saying then by all means go for it. Otherwise all you have is anecdotal evidence and pretty weak evidence at that.
This is not evidence-based.
Leaving ADHD untreated can do significant damage to your health, too.
This is something people just don't appreciate at all. ADHD is shortens life expectancy by 12 years on average. I imagine it runs the gamut from addiction problems, accidents, suicide, obesity, ignoring health problems until they snowball etc.
I'm certainly guilty of that last one. Since getting diagnosed I've been making a point to never leave a health problem ignored. Sure, it might take 6 months to a year for me to eventually book the appointment, but I'm getting them under control at my own pace.
I'm certainly guilty of that last one. Since getting diagnosed I've been making a point to never leave a health problem ignored. Sure, it might take 6 months to a year for me to eventually book the appointment, but I'm getting them under control at my own pace.
I can see how on the outside that might be a concern. How many awful years would you be willing to trade for good years? 2:1? 5:1? 10:1?
Consider
Lifetime Remaining x Quality of Life
If QoL is negative but can be switched to positive at some cost of LR it's not a hard deal to make. Especially in a world with car accidents and deadly diseases.
Consider
Lifetime Remaining x Quality of Life
If QoL is negative but can be switched to positive at some cost of LR it's not a hard deal to make. Especially in a world with car accidents and deadly diseases.
And that's not even accounting for the beneficial effects on friends/family/society.
I am not professionally employable without ADHD medication. I'm willing to that risk for roughly $3m in career earnings.
But just think of all those extra years you could have living in a cardboard box and feeling like a major disappointment! Or missing out on being completely spaced out, depressed, or anxious during major life events in your family!
Ah well, got to die of something.
If taking Vyvanse most days knocks a few years off my lifespan, it doesn't matter. I'm going to die anyway, eventually.
As we all are, ADHD-medicated or not.
If taking Vyvanse most days knocks a few years off my lifespan, it doesn't matter. I'm going to die anyway, eventually.
As we all are, ADHD-medicated or not.
Have any sources on neurodegenerative links between ADHD and longterm stimulant use? I think I saw a studying linking increased risk to parkinsons? This terrifies me.
If there is such an association, how would a study differentiate between the underlying condition causing the increased risk, and the medication itself?
Edit: smokers have reduced rates of Parkinson's disease, and nicotine is a stimulant.
Edit: smokers have reduced rates of Parkinson's disease, and nicotine is a stimulant.
[Citation needed]
Why would they cite when they can just as easily insinuate?
Getting chemically treated for ADHD is one of the life-changing moments for me. I spent most of my teen years learning "good habits" thru counseling and all that jazz. It wasn't until I started Vyvanse that all those "good habits" that was taught to me actually made sense. All the meditation practice actually got put to good use when it comes to controlling anger.
I do wish I hadn't waited 15+ years between diagnosis and medication, because it is life changing. I can now read HN/reddit without getting sucked into a vortex of endlessness. Pomodoro actually works. And the inner chatter, they still exist. The TVs in the head are still on with all the channels going at once. But you now have a remote control with a mute key and you get to choose which channel you wanna focus on.
p/s if you're Aussie, Vyvanse is now on PBS so you no longer need to pay $100+ a month - rather it's now $6 to $40 depending on your cirumstances.
I do wish I hadn't waited 15+ years between diagnosis and medication, because it is life changing. I can now read HN/reddit without getting sucked into a vortex of endlessness. Pomodoro actually works. And the inner chatter, they still exist. The TVs in the head are still on with all the channels going at once. But you now have a remote control with a mute key and you get to choose which channel you wanna focus on.
p/s if you're Aussie, Vyvanse is now on PBS so you no longer need to pay $100+ a month - rather it's now $6 to $40 depending on your cirumstances.
Hey chewxy I am in the exact same boat as you and totally agree it's a lifechanger. Here in germany it's called "Elvanse" but seems to be the same. I got the diagnoses last year and only because my current employer told me "You seem to be very unfocused" -- which was the reason that I now have to get help.
It's really hard to make people understand what the effect is, because everyone says "yeah I am distracted often too when I work", but it's not that you get distracted, but the intensity of distraction.
I usually describe it like: You have thought A and thought B. And between there is a lot of noise like "AFEWFVWRGBWIHGiwgbsigbeiscgedhtbvhrbdrtbhvdbhktvrbre". And with my medication it's like "rgerbdjtfkvsg".
It's a game changer.
It's really hard to make people understand what the effect is, because everyone says "yeah I am distracted often too when I work", but it's not that you get distracted, but the intensity of distraction.
I usually describe it like: You have thought A and thought B. And between there is a lot of noise like "AFEWFVWRGBWIHGiwgbsigbeiscgedhtbvhrbdrtbhvdbhktvrbre". And with my medication it's like "rgerbdjtfkvsg".
It's a game changer.
For me, medication and counseling compliment each other. Have you considered going back to counseling now that you are medicated to get even more "good habits" that you can apply to your life as it is in 2020?
Yes, and this is a very important point.
Many newly diagnosed ADHD patients make the mistake of thinking that they don't need therapy or self-help techniques now that they have stimulant medication. That's wrong. The stimulant medication should be used as an adjunct to therapy, self-habit, and developing good self-control techniques. The initial motivational boost of a new stimulant prescription won't last forever (concentration-enhancing effects do persist, though). However, good self-control habits will last a lifetime.
A (rather iffy) analogy is like a man trying to lift weights with very low testosterone. Going to the gym still helps, but it's an uphill battle to put on muscle until the underlying issues are corrected. However, fixing testosterone alone won't get you into great physical shape. You still need to put in the work to make the most of the corrected physiological condition.
Many newly diagnosed ADHD patients make the mistake of thinking that they don't need therapy or self-help techniques now that they have stimulant medication. That's wrong. The stimulant medication should be used as an adjunct to therapy, self-habit, and developing good self-control techniques. The initial motivational boost of a new stimulant prescription won't last forever (concentration-enhancing effects do persist, though). However, good self-control habits will last a lifetime.
A (rather iffy) analogy is like a man trying to lift weights with very low testosterone. Going to the gym still helps, but it's an uphill battle to put on muscle until the underlying issues are corrected. However, fixing testosterone alone won't get you into great physical shape. You still need to put in the work to make the most of the corrected physiological condition.
A person with ADHD on medication isn't in any greater need of therapy or self help than a normal person. Normal people can also have problems staying on task etc, most of them still don't need therapy.
Self help includes things like the healthy habits described in this article.
Anyone with ADHD severe enough to warrant stimulant medication is absolutely in need of good self-control habits and other such improvements. Therapy is one way to get it done, but I never suggested it was the only way.
It's a common mistake for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to assume that medication will automatically build good habits for them. That's not true. Medication is best combined with a deliberate effort to improve self-control and create positive environments for focus, as many ADHD patients have explained elsewhere in this comment section.
Anyone with ADHD severe enough to warrant stimulant medication is absolutely in need of good self-control habits and other such improvements. Therapy is one way to get it done, but I never suggested it was the only way.
It's a common mistake for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to assume that medication will automatically build good habits for them. That's not true. Medication is best combined with a deliberate effort to improve self-control and create positive environments for focus, as many ADHD patients have explained elsewhere in this comment section.
Why do you assume a person with ADHD doesn't already have good habits?
They don't. They assume that someone who has ADHD and has sought out a diagnosis and medication as an adult also has poor habits.
But why would that be the case? ADHD means you have more need for good habits to get things done. And if you seek treatment as an adult you likely already tried everything, since otherwise you would have looked for treatment a long time ago as this is typically diagnosed for children. For me I saw massive improvements immediately and they never really stopped.
> And if you seek treatment as an adult you likely already tried everything,
I think the mistake in your line of thinking lies here. Why do you think is the case? Could you not imagine a person who tries medication first before anything else?
I think the mistake in your line of thinking lies here. Why do you think is the case? Could you not imagine a person who tries medication first before anything else?
If you struggle because you never learned proper habits growing up due to inattentive type ADD, then you need to relearn these life skills and the stim meds give you the ability to focus on bettering yourself. Therapy provides a professionally guided framework for teaching you these life skills faster than on your own.
My experience is the opposite, my ADD forced me to learn way better habits than everyone else just to do everyday tasks.
Mine makes me unable to focus even on cleaning teeth...
Never stopped. The reason why I started medication was because I switched to a therapist who convinced me that I wasn't going to be a deranged drug addict.
> p/s if you're Aussie, Vyvanse is now on PBS so you no longer need to pay $100+ a month - rather it's now $6 to $40 depending on your cirumstances.
As a Aussie who is currently prescribed Dextroamphetamine, this makes me happy to hear.
I've been keen to switch to Vyvanse for a while now and my psych is open to the idea, but I haven't done it because of the cost and apparently there was a supply shortage for a while and I wouldn't have been able to get it at my pharmacy.
Now that I know it's on the PBS I'll have the conversation with my psych and hopefully be able to switch over too it.
Dex is too much like a rollercoaster for me, the idea of taking one extended release tablet in the morning I think would be a much smoother experience.
As a Aussie who is currently prescribed Dextroamphetamine, this makes me happy to hear.
I've been keen to switch to Vyvanse for a while now and my psych is open to the idea, but I haven't done it because of the cost and apparently there was a supply shortage for a while and I wouldn't have been able to get it at my pharmacy.
Now that I know it's on the PBS I'll have the conversation with my psych and hopefully be able to switch over too it.
Dex is too much like a rollercoaster for me, the idea of taking one extended release tablet in the morning I think would be a much smoother experience.
Just out of curiosity, your last name isn't Wong is it? If it is do email me
Yep same here. Medication finally made me understand the anger issues that I have due to ADHD.
I’m seeing “thru” more and more in various places and posts that otherwise use standard spelling and grammar. Is this becoming a de facto normal spelling?
Anybody else here thinks their ADHD influences some hoarding tendencies or fear-of-missing-out? I am basically a tab-opening machine. Whenever I come across any link that I feel might be helpful in some point in the future, I open it in the background knowing full well that I don't have time to look at it soon.
Thank god for TheGreatSuspender, and SessionBuddy extentions.
Thank god for TheGreatSuspender, and SessionBuddy extentions.
My personal thoughts are that it's a learned behavior; you know that you won't ever remember to check out that link later (like someone without ADHD might), so you open the tab as a defense against forgetting.
Not diagnosed, but strongly suspecting. I have a tab hoarding tendency; it took me a decade to notice the problem, and years of fighting it, but I've recently managed to make by brain accept that the burden of lingering tabs is greater than any value I can expect to get from them - so every couple days, I have a "screw this, let's clean the slate" moment, where I just close the browser window and reopen it fresh.
I've also stopped saving links to stuff I found on-line, because I never revisit them anyway. I once thought my "to read" list was my most prized possession. Now I realize it was just a way of making my procrastination seem productive.
I've also stopped saving links to stuff I found on-line, because I never revisit them anyway. I once thought my "to read" list was my most prized possession. Now I realize it was just a way of making my procrastination seem productive.
Possible, but here's an n=1 counterexample, I have a positive diagnosis and whether on medication or off it I strongly desire fewer tabs. Sometimes I'll over-close and have to Ctrl-Shift-T.
> TheGreatSuspender
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25846504
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25846504
I've had the opposite experience; I do rely heavily on note taking (especially when it's something I can be distracted away from) but I find having more than 10 tabs extremely stressful and tend to close out as much as possible to avoid getting overwhelmed. Maybe that's a coping mechanism for the object permanence issues that come with ADHD.
ADHD is a problem with your dopamine reward system and there are studies that link ADHD to risky behavior and higher risk of incarceration e.g. committing crimes, gambling, drug and alcohol addiction, etc. (anything to get more dopamine production going besides taking prescribed stimulants).
An enormous chunk of the prison population has ADHD.
Yes... medication and therapy has helped though. Therapy helped FOMO (activities OR information) by letting me accept not knowing/experiencing things. It allows me to finally be ok with closing tabs I haven't looked at in months without worrying I'm missing some important piece of information. Medication helps me avoid opening up tabs without closing them out when I'm done.
(Also, I use the Pocket extension to stash things away that I will "read later" even though I never do until I'm on a flight and need something to read.)
(Also, I use the Pocket extension to stash things away that I will "read later" even though I never do until I'm on a flight and need something to read.)
Yes. I'm an information hoarder. Tabs and books. I have a long running daily log i keep for tasks and thoughts where I'll paste links so I don't have to keep the browser open. I can't bookmark because I never see them again.
FYI. Something something something the great suspender stealing all your data.
not just the great suspender, but any browser extension that both
1. asks for permissions like "Read and change all your data on the websites that you visit" / "Read and change your browsing history", and
2. either
a. auto-updates, or
b. includes by reference code that isn't contained in the extension bundle (so it could change day to day)
I am not diagnosed with ADHD. I do however have 400 tabs open in Firefox and about 30 in Edge.
I regularly have around 8 windows of firefox and 2 windows of Safari.
I just can't bring myself to close them.... What if I forget one of the things?!
I just can't bring myself to close them.... What if I forget one of the things?!
TreeStyleTabs and an extension (yep) to that that lets you copy them to the clipboard as a markdown list - complete with indentation.
Then paste it into Joplin or something.
Then paste it into Joplin or something.
I was probably trained by my IE6/400Mhz Pentium days, but I’m the opposite. As soon as I’m done with it, I close it. I’ve never understood how people can leave tabs open when they’re not actively using them.
Getting tested & treated for my ADHD was genuinely life-changing for me. It's one of those insidious disorders that doesn't let you know how bad you actually have it until you experience what it's like without it for the first time. The inattentive type is nothing like the stereotypes.
One of my favorite signs you might have ADHD. Caffeine doesn't do anything for you and/or makes you sleepy. You've never know what other people talk about when they describe being "wired" after drinking an energy drink. Bonus points if despite "doing nothing" you still intake lots of caffeine. Congrats! You might be self-medicating without knowing it.
Everyone will recommend the book The Disorganized Mind for lots of good non-medication strategies and I'm no different. It's fantastic.
One of my favorite signs you might have ADHD. Caffeine doesn't do anything for you and/or makes you sleepy. You've never know what other people talk about when they describe being "wired" after drinking an energy drink. Bonus points if despite "doing nothing" you still intake lots of caffeine. Congrats! You might be self-medicating without knowing it.
Everyone will recommend the book The Disorganized Mind for lots of good non-medication strategies and I'm no different. It's fantastic.
100% this. I was diagnosed last year (at 33), and it changed my life for the better; specifically, it allowed me to stop being angry at myself every time I did something that was, in fact, a symptom of ADD. Now I had a reason and could work to modify behaviors, as opposed to just feeling guilty and undisciplined.
Mark Suster’s posts were what set me on this track of self-realization (along with my best friend and fiancée telling me to consider it), so I’ll leave them here in case they help anyone else too:
[1] https://bothsidesofthetable.com/how-to-know-if-you-have-add-...
[2] https://bothsidesofthetable.com/why-add-might-actually-benef...
[3] https://bothsidesofthetable.com/developing-an-action-plan-fo...
Mark Suster’s posts were what set me on this track of self-realization (along with my best friend and fiancée telling me to consider it), so I’ll leave them here in case they help anyone else too:
[1] https://bothsidesofthetable.com/how-to-know-if-you-have-add-...
[2] https://bothsidesofthetable.com/why-add-might-actually-benef...
[3] https://bothsidesofthetable.com/developing-an-action-plan-fo...
I drink lots and lots of caffeine during the week. I mostly like hot drinks when I have to sit down and work throughout the day. I definitely cannot relate to that caffeine buzz. I consume almost no caffeine on the weekends and I cannot really tell a difference from an alertness standpoint. There are nights I cannot sleep at all and toss and turn until the wee hours of the morning, and there are nights I fall asleep within 5 minutes and sleep throughout the night. Neither seems to have anything to do with the amount of caffeine I'm consuming.
I limit myself to one mug in the morning and another around lunch if I need the help on the days I do drink coffee. I try not to build up a caffeine tolerance since it's the next best thing to ADHD drugs for me. If you just like coffee, switch to decaf and only drink caffeinated for when you need it.
> One of my favorite signs you might have ADHD. Caffeine doesn't do anything for you and/or makes you sleepy.
Caffeine is an adenosine A2A antagonist, which has therapeutic potential in ADHD, except the half-like makes it an improbable candidate.
Ironically, I just started taking an adenosine a2a antagonist, known as Nourianz (istradefylline) (link: https://www.nourianz.com/), as a last-resort drug for my severe restless legs syndrome, which has been going phenomenally well. I also have ADHD combined type (inattention and hyperactivity), and fairly severely. I take Vyvanse for my ADHD.
Anyways, I have been taking the the istradefylline for a week now, and it has made a tremendous difference in many of my ADHD symptoms. Additionally, it greatly increased my sense of wellbeing within 1-2 hours of initially taking it, and it has been sustained for the entire week.
Thanks to istradefylline I can now focus seamlessly and without effort. I can just "lock in" to whatever I want to do. Before, it would require some static force ("friction") to be able to "lock in" my concentration to do the task. I can also now just focus, without hyperfocusing. It now comes naturally to me. I also no longer find myself pacing around the house aimlessly. I also do not randomly get up from my seat or fidget hardcore. I can also lock back into a flow state without effort if I am disrupted.
I hope you find this interesting! The adenosine a2a antagonist made a huge difference in both my restless legs syndrome and ADHD symptoms. I cannot imagine NOT being on this medication for my ADHD.
Caffeine is an adenosine A2A antagonist, which has therapeutic potential in ADHD, except the half-like makes it an improbable candidate.
Ironically, I just started taking an adenosine a2a antagonist, known as Nourianz (istradefylline) (link: https://www.nourianz.com/), as a last-resort drug for my severe restless legs syndrome, which has been going phenomenally well. I also have ADHD combined type (inattention and hyperactivity), and fairly severely. I take Vyvanse for my ADHD.
Anyways, I have been taking the the istradefylline for a week now, and it has made a tremendous difference in many of my ADHD symptoms. Additionally, it greatly increased my sense of wellbeing within 1-2 hours of initially taking it, and it has been sustained for the entire week.
Thanks to istradefylline I can now focus seamlessly and without effort. I can just "lock in" to whatever I want to do. Before, it would require some static force ("friction") to be able to "lock in" my concentration to do the task. I can also now just focus, without hyperfocusing. It now comes naturally to me. I also no longer find myself pacing around the house aimlessly. I also do not randomly get up from my seat or fidget hardcore. I can also lock back into a flow state without effort if I am disrupted.
I hope you find this interesting! The adenosine a2a antagonist made a huge difference in both my restless legs syndrome and ADHD symptoms. I cannot imagine NOT being on this medication for my ADHD.
I very much identify with this. Both from an ADHD and anxiety perspective. I really had no idea how bad it had gotten until I was able to experience what not having constant anxiety felt like. Medication was a huge step forward in helping me "reset" and gave me a way to target actual life events that triggered my anxiety
> Bonus points if despite "doing nothing" you still intake lots of caffeine.
Does tea count? Drinking coffee does sometimes (not always) make me more awake, and usually also makes my whole body feel weird (in a bad way) - but if I drink coffee, I do that on top of 10+ cups of black tea I drink every day, as I drank ever since I was 7 years old or something.
Does tea count? Drinking coffee does sometimes (not always) make me more awake, and usually also makes my whole body feel weird (in a bad way) - but if I drink coffee, I do that on top of 10+ cups of black tea I drink every day, as I drank ever since I was 7 years old or something.
I am going to mention something. In my distant past I worked for a psychology firm handling, well, everything to do with computers. That included some testing.
In the United States, there are two tests for ADHD I would vouch for: Conners' Continuous Performance Test (CPT) and the Test of Variables of Attention (TOVA). Both are computerized. Both rely solely on your reactions and your restraint, they are not questionnaires. We had plenty of patients who had been diagnosed via questionnaire who did not show up at ADHD to a significant degree on those tests. Rather, they had some other underlying disorder that can also mess with attention, such as, sadly, early onset schizophrenia.
The other benefit of these computerized tests is that you can use the to titrate your medication to an appropriate dose, as most stimulants have an inverted U-shaped response. Too much and you get to feeling like a zombie. Gain weight? Retake the test. Maybe you hit puberty. Retake the test. Maybe you have side effects and you need a different formulation or a different medication all together. Retake the test. By doing this, you can figure out what your optimal dose is, even figure out at what time you "peak."
The other way to diagnose is through a PET scan but I don't know anyone in their right minds who does that.
CPTs and TOVAs, I don't know how much they cost today but I would say that they are worth it, both for peace of mind (I really have it, my parents didn't just answer the questionnaire hoping to get certain results) and for the ability to tune your medicinal needs.
In the United States, there are two tests for ADHD I would vouch for: Conners' Continuous Performance Test (CPT) and the Test of Variables of Attention (TOVA). Both are computerized. Both rely solely on your reactions and your restraint, they are not questionnaires. We had plenty of patients who had been diagnosed via questionnaire who did not show up at ADHD to a significant degree on those tests. Rather, they had some other underlying disorder that can also mess with attention, such as, sadly, early onset schizophrenia.
The other benefit of these computerized tests is that you can use the to titrate your medication to an appropriate dose, as most stimulants have an inverted U-shaped response. Too much and you get to feeling like a zombie. Gain weight? Retake the test. Maybe you hit puberty. Retake the test. Maybe you have side effects and you need a different formulation or a different medication all together. Retake the test. By doing this, you can figure out what your optimal dose is, even figure out at what time you "peak."
The other way to diagnose is through a PET scan but I don't know anyone in their right minds who does that.
CPTs and TOVAs, I don't know how much they cost today but I would say that they are worth it, both for peace of mind (I really have it, my parents didn't just answer the questionnaire hoping to get certain results) and for the ability to tune your medicinal needs.
Could you elaborate by adding any relevant but legitimate links? The web is filled with all kinds of crap, and I'm sure that would be useful.
Is there an easy way to access these tests? Like a free clone or something?
I'd much rather not fork over my precious currency to some rent-seeker just so they can let me do the test on their computer and the give it their stamp of approval.
If there's nothing but a description then I'll go and implement it myself and release it on sourcehut.
I'd much rather not fork over my precious currency to some rent-seeker just so they can let me do the test on their computer and the give it their stamp of approval.
If there's nothing but a description then I'll go and implement it myself and release it on sourcehut.
Good luck with that. You have no idea of what you're up against. Let's just start with the basics:
1) Which types of attention will you measure and how do you differentiate between them?
2) Do you have an extensive body of testing to establish baselines, normals, standard deviations, and the like?
3) Do you expect a psychiatrist to write a prescription of a scheduled drug for anyone based on something they downloaded off of, say, sourceforge, or cloned out of GitHub?
Even if you valued your time at a buck an hour, you're not gonna get cheaper than forking over your precious currency to some rent-seeker.
1) Which types of attention will you measure and how do you differentiate between them?
2) Do you have an extensive body of testing to establish baselines, normals, standard deviations, and the like?
3) Do you expect a psychiatrist to write a prescription of a scheduled drug for anyone based on something they downloaded off of, say, sourceforge, or cloned out of GitHub?
Even if you valued your time at a buck an hour, you're not gonna get cheaper than forking over your precious currency to some rent-seeker.
Dude, I mean to copy the existing test.
Also it takes much less than to get a scrip, just those shitty questionnaires.
And I would if it time well spent if it helped me and others to manage their illness.
Also it takes much less than to get a scrip, just those shitty questionnaires.
And I would if it time well spent if it helped me and others to manage their illness.
Well, you can try to copy the existing test, but you won't know how to calibrate any of the scores. It's a reaction test, based on times. The most you can copy is "see a letter, press a spacebar" functionality.
They're not going to give you the source and they're not going to give you the base data. You can test people for times but you don't know the cutoffs or the norms for those times. You don't even know if high or low of a norm is a sign of attention or inattention. You'd have an easier time replicating the MMPI.
But go for it.
They're not going to give you the source and they're not going to give you the base data. You can test people for times but you don't know the cutoffs or the norms for those times. You don't even know if high or low of a norm is a sign of attention or inattention. You'd have an easier time replicating the MMPI.
But go for it.
Nice try, big psychometrics.
Thanks for posting this. I've wondered about being able to assess the degree of ADHD quantitatively.
I have undiagnosed ADD. I know partially because I observe my own behavior, but also because once at a party I took adderall and while everyone else frantically danced themselves into a heavy sweat, I was compelled to go into the kitchen and do all the dishes and reorganize my closet.
I don’t like how stimulants make me feel, even though I know they might make it easier to fit into society. It is probably hard to describe how they make me feel to someone who does not have the underlying condition, like trying to describe how it feels to get a prosthetic arm to someone who has never lost their arm to begin with.
Compared with other people, my internal experience/world seems frantic. If I sit for more than 30 seconds alone without my phone I will have wild daydreams—-my mind works kind of like the old website StumbleUpon. Or like being in a crowded restaurant and trying to follow everyone’s conversations. My favorite quote regarding ADHD: “my brain never takes the same route twice”.
But I don’t think that stimulants make me have a “normal” experience like “normal” people do. Yes, on one hand the increased dopamine means that I am actually able to maintain a mental checklist for more than 5 minutes. I’m sure I would be the best employee ever, and the yessiest of yes-men. There is an element of taking stimulants that feels just like putting on noise-cancelling headphones and produces the same focusing effect.
But there is also a dark side. I can’t relax. I feel absolutely driven to accomplish things. The outside world impinges so much more heavily on my mind. My access to my intuition and creativity are diminished. My jaw is clenched. Instead of forgetting to eat like normal I am just not hungry, my stomach is churning. It makes me feel like a golem. There is a chance that minus the physical side effects normal people do feel this way mentally, but it is so much more sterile. It’s like trading the lush forest of imagination for a cubicle farm of execution.
My personal theory is that ADHD is just at the far end of the normal distribution of personality and that it is a trait that is very useful for raising children. In a real way there is a childish wonder that I have never lost, even as I see those around me “grow up” (i.e., become rigid). I have heard other theories regarding it being adaptive for hunting. Either way, I enjoy my existence as a space cadet. My whole life is shining with such a rich and imaginative inner experience and I don’t think I owe it to anyone to dim that brightness just so I can fit into their terribly boring, rigid, and repetitive world more easily.
I don’t like how stimulants make me feel, even though I know they might make it easier to fit into society. It is probably hard to describe how they make me feel to someone who does not have the underlying condition, like trying to describe how it feels to get a prosthetic arm to someone who has never lost their arm to begin with.
Compared with other people, my internal experience/world seems frantic. If I sit for more than 30 seconds alone without my phone I will have wild daydreams—-my mind works kind of like the old website StumbleUpon. Or like being in a crowded restaurant and trying to follow everyone’s conversations. My favorite quote regarding ADHD: “my brain never takes the same route twice”.
But I don’t think that stimulants make me have a “normal” experience like “normal” people do. Yes, on one hand the increased dopamine means that I am actually able to maintain a mental checklist for more than 5 minutes. I’m sure I would be the best employee ever, and the yessiest of yes-men. There is an element of taking stimulants that feels just like putting on noise-cancelling headphones and produces the same focusing effect.
But there is also a dark side. I can’t relax. I feel absolutely driven to accomplish things. The outside world impinges so much more heavily on my mind. My access to my intuition and creativity are diminished. My jaw is clenched. Instead of forgetting to eat like normal I am just not hungry, my stomach is churning. It makes me feel like a golem. There is a chance that minus the physical side effects normal people do feel this way mentally, but it is so much more sterile. It’s like trading the lush forest of imagination for a cubicle farm of execution.
My personal theory is that ADHD is just at the far end of the normal distribution of personality and that it is a trait that is very useful for raising children. In a real way there is a childish wonder that I have never lost, even as I see those around me “grow up” (i.e., become rigid). I have heard other theories regarding it being adaptive for hunting. Either way, I enjoy my existence as a space cadet. My whole life is shining with such a rich and imaginative inner experience and I don’t think I owe it to anyone to dim that brightness just so I can fit into their terribly boring, rigid, and repetitive world more easily.
It's not really at the extreme end of the normal distribution for personality, it's a neurological condition.
It's also terrible for raising kids in my experience as because of the large genetic component it's likely one of your kids has it too. So now you have this little firecracker who won't sit still and bugs you near constantly while you just want to retreat into your world and get sucked into what it is that you want to do. You get frustrated and aggravated when they disturb you and they get frustrated and aggravated when you seem disinterested in the thing they're intensely interested in.
At least that's how it tends to go in my household.
It's also terrible for raising kids in my experience as because of the large genetic component it's likely one of your kids has it too. So now you have this little firecracker who won't sit still and bugs you near constantly while you just want to retreat into your world and get sucked into what it is that you want to do. You get frustrated and aggravated when they disturb you and they get frustrated and aggravated when you seem disinterested in the thing they're intensely interested in.
At least that's how it tends to go in my household.
This resonates with me as well and that is the reason I never stuck to taking uppers. They do get me doing certain tasks that I normally don't care much about but the downside is too much. I resort to it only when I have to do something that I dread but need to get done and that is rare. My mind also works something like stumble upon and I enjoy it a lot as well. I never bore of being by myself, I always find something exciting to think of or do.
> My jaw is clenched.
You might be overdosing or particular drug is not for you - try another one.
You might be overdosing or particular drug is not for you - try another one.
I'm in my 40s and have suffered with undiagnosed ADHD my entire life.
Two days after I suspected I had it I saw my doctor. One month later I was on medication. A few more months and I am in weekly counselling. For me personally, the positive changes from medication and counseling have been dramatic and immediate.
After only 4 months, my coworkers impression of me is starting to shift for the better.
ADHD is a serious mental illness. I'm so thankful that the help I'm getting is working.
"Taking Charge of Adult ADHD" by Barkley, helped me understand ADHD and how I should deal with it.
Two days after I suspected I had it I saw my doctor. One month later I was on medication. A few more months and I am in weekly counselling. For me personally, the positive changes from medication and counseling have been dramatic and immediate.
After only 4 months, my coworkers impression of me is starting to shift for the better.
ADHD is a serious mental illness. I'm so thankful that the help I'm getting is working.
"Taking Charge of Adult ADHD" by Barkley, helped me understand ADHD and how I should deal with it.
It's great that you're also going to therapy. I hope the therapy is for the habits of ADD (if it's for other things, I suggest you include any ADD habit that's impeding your life).
I waited until 25 yrs old. Took a break for a bit but restarted at 33. I don't think I'll look back. The medication is such a night/day experience but it's only half the battle for me. Gotta break the bad habits (not filing away, not reviewing the day, etc).
I waited until 25 yrs old. Took a break for a bit but restarted at 33. I don't think I'll look back. The medication is such a night/day experience but it's only half the battle for me. Gotta break the bad habits (not filing away, not reviewing the day, etc).
Right now it's focused on emotional control, connecting with my values for motivation, and mindfulness. All related to ADD.
> , and mindfulness.
Me too! I've been identifying more with my Quaker belief system and meditating more. I'm trying to be more consistent with it but man, it's opened up a whole new world.
Keep up the great work! :)
Me too! I've been identifying more with my Quaker belief system and meditating more. I'm trying to be more consistent with it but man, it's opened up a whole new world.
Keep up the great work! :)
There's no point to the story below. I never meet people with ADHD, and I just felt like writing about my experience. To summarize, I know that I have ADHD, but I don't know what to do with that information. It's either, take that pill and turn into a robot, or don't take the pill and continue living an unorganized, chaotic life.
I'm only 22, don't know at what point I'm supposed to figure out what life is and how it works :D Got a job, GF and my own (rented) apartment, if that's it then I want to be a kid again.
God damn, can't even summarize without writing a wall of text...
---
In the end of 2019, YouTube randomly recommended a video to me, in which a guy talked about his experiences of growing up with ADHD. I never thought that I had it, but what he said resonated with me so strongly that it scared me. At about the same time, my GFs younger brother was diagnosed with ADHD. Started reading more about it, because my knowledge at that point was "kids who can't keep still".
A book which particularly shocked me back then was "ADD stole my car keys" by Rick Green. It felt like reading my own diary, it was very creepy.
So I started wondering if I had it. Talked about it to my doctor and he recommended a specialists who diagnoses ADHD. So I went there, and after months of questionnaires, tests etc. I got the confirmation which said, that I indeed had ADD.
After that, there was a time period where I was able to live with ADD and actually start organizing my life etc. Then Corona hit, I was fired (got a new, better job, no worries) and it kinda reset my progress.
Now the critical thing was the medication. It seemed to work, but in a way I didn't completely like. I was able to focus more, and my emotions were in check. But I wasn't hungry, it made me apathetic and my creativity went away. Granted, my job does not require creativity, but it feels weird to take a pill, which sole purpose is to make me compatible with the capitalistic world we live in. I was able to work, but my personality was lost while being on meds.
---
In the end of 2019, YouTube randomly recommended a video to me, in which a guy talked about his experiences of growing up with ADHD. I never thought that I had it, but what he said resonated with me so strongly that it scared me. At about the same time, my GFs younger brother was diagnosed with ADHD. Started reading more about it, because my knowledge at that point was "kids who can't keep still".
A book which particularly shocked me back then was "ADD stole my car keys" by Rick Green. It felt like reading my own diary, it was very creepy.
So I started wondering if I had it. Talked about it to my doctor and he recommended a specialists who diagnoses ADHD. So I went there, and after months of questionnaires, tests etc. I got the confirmation which said, that I indeed had ADD.
After that, there was a time period where I was able to live with ADD and actually start organizing my life etc. Then Corona hit, I was fired (got a new, better job, no worries) and it kinda reset my progress.
Now the critical thing was the medication. It seemed to work, but in a way I didn't completely like. I was able to focus more, and my emotions were in check. But I wasn't hungry, it made me apathetic and my creativity went away. Granted, my job does not require creativity, but it feels weird to take a pill, which sole purpose is to make me compatible with the capitalistic world we live in. I was able to work, but my personality was lost while being on meds.
First, I really appreciate that you're opening up about your life. It's not easy to do, even with strangers on the web.
> It's either, take that pill and turn into a robot, or...
Might I suggest you think of it this way: Take that pill and realize my enlightened self or try to love myself in spite of my chemical imbalance in the brain.
> can't even summarize without writing a wall of text...
Although I'm not currently taking my advice here. Might I suggest that if you JOURNAL your personal thoughts, it's really helpful to realizing what you're trying to say to yourself. There is nothing wrong with a wall of text, even for summaries. I found that journaling was a great way for 'someone to listen to my random rapid thoughts'. (Note: This doesn't need to be everyday, nor some big burden. Just do it as often as you think about it and for as long as you desire in any given moment :D This will pay dividends for your awareness in just a few months of sporadic posts, even without the meds)
> But I wasn't hungry, it made me apathetic and my creativity went away.
Hmm. I'd suggest you try a different medication. There are multiple meds that help with this. (spelling probably wrong) Modfinil, Adderall, Vyvanse, Ritalin, Dexadrine, etc
I've tried them all and honestly, if I was able to, I'd want a few different meds, at different dosages because I know it would be a better combination for me than just one med. Ritalin is a non-starter for me, the side effects are too serious. Vyvanse and Modfinil were 'gentle' but not aggressive enough on my symptoms (no side effects but maxing out the dosage still felt too little of a positive effect on me). Dexadrine worked with another med I was taking (prozac) but I wouldn't 'get things' done as efficient. Then I changed my other med to Wellbutrin (a better depression med, imho, super cheap too) and Adderall worked perfectly in concert with it (this is now affordable for out of pocket care in the USA). [Note: This is my personal experience. This paragraph is over 2 years of trial and error. Some things worked for a few months but didn't actually work, after some introspection. Try things and be aware of what's happening to your body. My situation is unique to me, yours will be different but try to understand your situation better]
Finding the right meds, for your unique biochemical makeup, is a very large task. Most doctors aren't as detailed and provide a Bespoke service. Try to give yourself a Bespoke level of care. Do it with the counsel of a doctor, many doctors will be okay with this because you're under their care and they tend to only put in the level of effort that you request. So, talk with them and try to find something better for yourself. It make take years but realize, being on some meds, you're learning about yourself and you're making progress on what you want (not what capitalism demands).
> It's either, take that pill and turn into a robot, or...
Might I suggest you think of it this way: Take that pill and realize my enlightened self or try to love myself in spite of my chemical imbalance in the brain.
> can't even summarize without writing a wall of text...
Although I'm not currently taking my advice here. Might I suggest that if you JOURNAL your personal thoughts, it's really helpful to realizing what you're trying to say to yourself. There is nothing wrong with a wall of text, even for summaries. I found that journaling was a great way for 'someone to listen to my random rapid thoughts'. (Note: This doesn't need to be everyday, nor some big burden. Just do it as often as you think about it and for as long as you desire in any given moment :D This will pay dividends for your awareness in just a few months of sporadic posts, even without the meds)
> But I wasn't hungry, it made me apathetic and my creativity went away.
Hmm. I'd suggest you try a different medication. There are multiple meds that help with this. (spelling probably wrong) Modfinil, Adderall, Vyvanse, Ritalin, Dexadrine, etc
I've tried them all and honestly, if I was able to, I'd want a few different meds, at different dosages because I know it would be a better combination for me than just one med. Ritalin is a non-starter for me, the side effects are too serious. Vyvanse and Modfinil were 'gentle' but not aggressive enough on my symptoms (no side effects but maxing out the dosage still felt too little of a positive effect on me). Dexadrine worked with another med I was taking (prozac) but I wouldn't 'get things' done as efficient. Then I changed my other med to Wellbutrin (a better depression med, imho, super cheap too) and Adderall worked perfectly in concert with it (this is now affordable for out of pocket care in the USA). [Note: This is my personal experience. This paragraph is over 2 years of trial and error. Some things worked for a few months but didn't actually work, after some introspection. Try things and be aware of what's happening to your body. My situation is unique to me, yours will be different but try to understand your situation better]
Finding the right meds, for your unique biochemical makeup, is a very large task. Most doctors aren't as detailed and provide a Bespoke service. Try to give yourself a Bespoke level of care. Do it with the counsel of a doctor, many doctors will be okay with this because you're under their care and they tend to only put in the level of effort that you request. So, talk with them and try to find something better for yourself. It make take years but realize, being on some meds, you're learning about yourself and you're making progress on what you want (not what capitalism demands).
> It's not easy to do, even with strangers on the web
Sometimes I get a good feeling, and this comment section gave me one :) Seems like the place to write about ADHD.
> Take that pill and realize my enlightened self or try to love myself in spite of my chemical imbalance in the brain
That's actually a good quote, thanks for coming up with it :)
> JOURNAL your personal thoughts, it's really helpful to realizing what you're trying to say to yourself
That's such a good point. Lots of times I spend months thinking about stuff, but rarely come to a conclusion. Sometimes gets to a point where I think so much about something, that it starts to pull me down mentally. But everytime I write these thoughts down, most of the times because I stumble upon a comment which talks about the same topic, I feel like it allows me to summarize these thougts and understand them fully. Somehow I only noticed this now, with you telling me that a journal could help. So thanks again, I should probably start writing a journal, after all, I liked writing stories as a child.
> I'd suggest you try a different medication
I probably should, yes. Funnily enough, I (illegally) self-medicated with Modafinil, a year before I even suspected that I had ADHD. I was just always tired with no motivation, Modafinil helped quite a bit. But it's not an official medicine in Switzerland, so I ordered it over the internet. Obviously that's a terrible solution, so I stopped after 2 blisters.
The official med they gave me was Concerta, which is basically Ritalin for adults in Switzerland.
I spend like 99% of my time on the internet on US-centric platforms. When I informed myself about ADHD, I exclusively read from US sources, Russell Barkley as an example. Now the annoying thing - Adderall, as an example, is just not prescribed in Switzerland. You can only get it in very rare occasions, or if you migrate from the US. Lots of times when I talk about meds or ADHD-theories with my doctor, they either don't exist here or they have another name, which makes that whole ordeal a bit complicated.
I should call my doctor to renew my Concerta prescription. That's another thing, the prescription has to be renewed constantly, but with 'rona you can only get appointments for urgencies. Plus, at the pharmacy I get treated like a drug addict. Last time I tried to pick it up, the prescription expired like a week before. I didn't know that, because the prescription is stored at the pharmacy. The pharmacist then decided to look at me very sincerely and state with a loud voice, that he "can't just give Concerta with an expired prescription, we are talking about extremely strong narcotics here." Was really nice of her, especially because everyone in that pharmacy was able to hear, that this young man over there consumes "extremely strong narcotics". Got some weird looks after that. They also constantly treated me like they suspected that I was only getting them to resell them, had to justify me picking them up both times I went there.
I guess, overall the experience I had with meds was just unsatisfactory. Should probably just try out a different pharmacy, the last experience demotivated me so much that I just completely gave up on meds.
Well anyways, thanks for reading my TED talk, and many thanks for your great tips :)
Sometimes I get a good feeling, and this comment section gave me one :) Seems like the place to write about ADHD.
> Take that pill and realize my enlightened self or try to love myself in spite of my chemical imbalance in the brain
That's actually a good quote, thanks for coming up with it :)
> JOURNAL your personal thoughts, it's really helpful to realizing what you're trying to say to yourself
That's such a good point. Lots of times I spend months thinking about stuff, but rarely come to a conclusion. Sometimes gets to a point where I think so much about something, that it starts to pull me down mentally. But everytime I write these thoughts down, most of the times because I stumble upon a comment which talks about the same topic, I feel like it allows me to summarize these thougts and understand them fully. Somehow I only noticed this now, with you telling me that a journal could help. So thanks again, I should probably start writing a journal, after all, I liked writing stories as a child.
> I'd suggest you try a different medication
I probably should, yes. Funnily enough, I (illegally) self-medicated with Modafinil, a year before I even suspected that I had ADHD. I was just always tired with no motivation, Modafinil helped quite a bit. But it's not an official medicine in Switzerland, so I ordered it over the internet. Obviously that's a terrible solution, so I stopped after 2 blisters.
The official med they gave me was Concerta, which is basically Ritalin for adults in Switzerland.
I spend like 99% of my time on the internet on US-centric platforms. When I informed myself about ADHD, I exclusively read from US sources, Russell Barkley as an example. Now the annoying thing - Adderall, as an example, is just not prescribed in Switzerland. You can only get it in very rare occasions, or if you migrate from the US. Lots of times when I talk about meds or ADHD-theories with my doctor, they either don't exist here or they have another name, which makes that whole ordeal a bit complicated.
I should call my doctor to renew my Concerta prescription. That's another thing, the prescription has to be renewed constantly, but with 'rona you can only get appointments for urgencies. Plus, at the pharmacy I get treated like a drug addict. Last time I tried to pick it up, the prescription expired like a week before. I didn't know that, because the prescription is stored at the pharmacy. The pharmacist then decided to look at me very sincerely and state with a loud voice, that he "can't just give Concerta with an expired prescription, we are talking about extremely strong narcotics here." Was really nice of her, especially because everyone in that pharmacy was able to hear, that this young man over there consumes "extremely strong narcotics". Got some weird looks after that. They also constantly treated me like they suspected that I was only getting them to resell them, had to justify me picking them up both times I went there.
I guess, overall the experience I had with meds was just unsatisfactory. Should probably just try out a different pharmacy, the last experience demotivated me so much that I just completely gave up on meds.
Well anyways, thanks for reading my TED talk, and many thanks for your great tips :)
Consider trying elvanse / vyvanse.
While concerta did help in some sense, I had the same side effects as you. In my experience, Elvanse feels more like it "cures" my ADHD while retaining my personality and creativity. Oh, and (almost) no side effects!
While concerta did help in some sense, I had the same side effects as you. In my experience, Elvanse feels more like it "cures" my ADHD while retaining my personality and creativity. Oh, and (almost) no side effects!
I've wanted to try that, yeah. Heard a lot of good stuff about it :)
I'll have to check that out with my doc, thanks for the recommendation!
>My 5 AM morning workout is probably the most important part of the routine since it helps with focus and letting out some energy.
Damn, if you have the mental fortitude to get out of bed at that time, you're probably fine. Every time I wake up before my alarm, especially now when it's super cold, I instantly think of this Calvin and Hobbes single-panel classic: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/316729786269578409/
Damn, if you have the mental fortitude to get out of bed at that time, you're probably fine. Every time I wake up before my alarm, especially now when it's super cold, I instantly think of this Calvin and Hobbes single-panel classic: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/316729786269578409/
No kidding. I'm on a 5am bedtime cycle now.
I didn’t see this addressed in other comments, but I thought the music part was interesting.
Fast, driving, intense techno of some sort is a game changer for me in terms of focus. Not a replacement for medication, but a useful tool with or without.
I also find bright, flashing lights useful for focus. Think those cheap led bulbs which a prism and motor. I think expensive night club versions would be better, but I’m not willing to drop $100s to find out.
I think I might just need stimulation in all forms - visual, audible, physical, chemical - to be at my best.
Anyone else experience that?
Fast, driving, intense techno of some sort is a game changer for me in terms of focus. Not a replacement for medication, but a useful tool with or without.
I also find bright, flashing lights useful for focus. Think those cheap led bulbs which a prism and motor. I think expensive night club versions would be better, but I’m not willing to drop $100s to find out.
I think I might just need stimulation in all forms - visual, audible, physical, chemical - to be at my best.
Anyone else experience that?
Yeah, nothing (well except for amphetamines) works better than a 260 km/h autobahn ride to work for my before-noon focus. I had absolutely no idea why I felt so pushed to drive fast for years before I got diagnosed... Nowadays I don't drive much, the amphetamines work better and I don't want to try driving while on them, that could end badly.
Driving while on them is safer probably.[1]
[1] https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/news/20140129/drivers-with-ad...
[1] https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/news/20140129/drivers-with-ad...
Adam Beyer, carl cox, boris brecha, everything on techno-club.net.
I am very good at creating detail To-Do list and I am on Adderall thus I can concentrate but my biggest issue is doing the most important tasks on the To Do list. These tasks may be things I do not like to do but I have to to do. The feeling is like an invisible rope has tied my hands. Been suffering with this for a long time, has affected my life a lot and still cant find a solution.
I usually schedule these on my calendar as small self-contained chunks, scoped to 25 minutes (recursively break the next actionable step into it)
That has helped me a bit in making progress on things that are important, but not really exciting, such as documentation.
Mandatory Note, this does not work, if you have a lot of such things to do,in which a team or role change would help.
That has helped me a bit in making progress on things that are important, but not really exciting, such as documentation.
Mandatory Note, this does not work, if you have a lot of such things to do,in which a team or role change would help.
Fellow ADHD person:
Get diagnosed and get a low-dose of meds. It helps _a lot_. You will likely hate the feeling they give you for the first week (you will genuinely feel high even on 10mg Adderall XR), along with nightmares and night sweats but after a few weeks, you'll suddenly be productive at a very normal level.
I don't feel strung out nor is it some addiction. Ignore the people screaming about Adderall being "literal meth" and how it will certainly kill you. Even with an addictive personality, it's very easy to avoid over-doing it (hint: only take it as prescribed).
Medication is intended as a stop-gap to build a system so you won't need high doses forever. If you go into thinking meds are all that needs to be done, you are going about it wrong. You need to build a system and reflect on how to improve your baseline productivity and keep yourself on rails (planners, calendars, checking your work, reviewing work with a fresh mind before sending out, etc).
Additionally, it does help if you like what you are doing. I'd imagine ADHD is much easier to maintain if you are self-employed or have a large leeway to define how work gets done or what work gets done. If you are in a command-and-control / top-down power structure, you need to leave; you'll never thrive there and will ultimately get tossed out.
Lastly, caffeine does help from my testing, especially caffeine combined with L-Theanine. I used to take 100mg of HVMN "Sprint" pills as a test whether I had ADHD; it helped quite a bit. It didn't make me jittery and it let me focus much better.
Get diagnosed and get a low-dose of meds. It helps _a lot_. You will likely hate the feeling they give you for the first week (you will genuinely feel high even on 10mg Adderall XR), along with nightmares and night sweats but after a few weeks, you'll suddenly be productive at a very normal level.
I don't feel strung out nor is it some addiction. Ignore the people screaming about Adderall being "literal meth" and how it will certainly kill you. Even with an addictive personality, it's very easy to avoid over-doing it (hint: only take it as prescribed).
Medication is intended as a stop-gap to build a system so you won't need high doses forever. If you go into thinking meds are all that needs to be done, you are going about it wrong. You need to build a system and reflect on how to improve your baseline productivity and keep yourself on rails (planners, calendars, checking your work, reviewing work with a fresh mind before sending out, etc).
Additionally, it does help if you like what you are doing. I'd imagine ADHD is much easier to maintain if you are self-employed or have a large leeway to define how work gets done or what work gets done. If you are in a command-and-control / top-down power structure, you need to leave; you'll never thrive there and will ultimately get tossed out.
Lastly, caffeine does help from my testing, especially caffeine combined with L-Theanine. I used to take 100mg of HVMN "Sprint" pills as a test whether I had ADHD; it helped quite a bit. It didn't make me jittery and it let me focus much better.
> I don't feel strung out nor is it some addiction. Ignore the people screaming about Adderall being "literal meth" and how it will certainly kill you. Even with an addictive personality, it's very easy to avoid over-doing it (hint: only take it as prescribed).
Low dose meth does work pretty similar to Adderall. Everyone who does meth does not become a meth addict. Most don't. But the people who become meth addicts are the same people who end up using adderall like methheads.
Which is why I personally don't have an Adderall prescription. Because if I have a bottle of Adderall I'm going to attempt a prescribed dose on day one and start snorting it by day three.
Low dose meth does work pretty similar to Adderall. Everyone who does meth does not become a meth addict. Most don't. But the people who become meth addicts are the same people who end up using adderall like methheads.
Which is why I personally don't have an Adderall prescription. Because if I have a bottle of Adderall I'm going to attempt a prescribed dose on day one and start snorting it by day three.
Low dose meth has a lot of similarities but quite a few, significant, differences to Adderall. The biggest are tropism and release.
Statistically, because of the addictive effects of untreated ADHD, the likelihood of substance addiction with or without amphetamine treatment is almost equal. There is of course a risk of getting addicted to Adderall, but amphetamines with long releases are not very addictive as far as drugs go and the risk of getting addicted to other things is drastically reduced.
Methamphetamine as used illegally is a lot more addictive than Adderall because it is generally consumed in ways that lead to much more immediate effects and not orally, and even when orally it is generally formulated to be released more quickly. More rapid effects seriously increase addiction potential.
The doses are also much smaller for Adderall than meth in 99% of cases.
Because of these factors, methamphetamine is much more addictive than pharmaceutical amphetamine salts.
Statistically, because of the addictive effects of untreated ADHD, the likelihood of substance addiction with or without amphetamine treatment is almost equal. There is of course a risk of getting addicted to Adderall, but amphetamines with long releases are not very addictive as far as drugs go and the risk of getting addicted to other things is drastically reduced.
Methamphetamine as used illegally is a lot more addictive than Adderall because it is generally consumed in ways that lead to much more immediate effects and not orally, and even when orally it is generally formulated to be released more quickly. More rapid effects seriously increase addiction potential.
The doses are also much smaller for Adderall than meth in 99% of cases.
Because of these factors, methamphetamine is much more addictive than pharmaceutical amphetamine salts.
The likelihood of addiction without treatment is much higher as far as I know.
To paraphrase, "I think adderall is kinda like meth, so it's obviously addictive."
The fuck?
Adderall is one of many medical options for treating ADHD. Not all of which are stimulants. And some of which are chemically designed so they can't be abused (like Vyvance).
EDIT: The OP pulled the "in my opinion" phrasing from their post, but I'm going leave mine as-is. There's a lot of anecdote based FUD about ADHD meds going on in these threads, and it makes me mad. My above thoughts stand.
The fuck?
Adderall is one of many medical options for treating ADHD. Not all of which are stimulants. And some of which are chemically designed so they can't be abused (like Vyvance).
EDIT: The OP pulled the "in my opinion" phrasing from their post, but I'm going leave mine as-is. There's a lot of anecdote based FUD about ADHD meds going on in these threads, and it makes me mad. My above thoughts stand.
Paraphrasing only works when it captures the essence of what is being said.
Adderall is 100% addictive and is like meth but with less bio-availability and neurotoxicity.
All stimulants are addictive and you will have physical side effects from discontinuing use.
All stimulants are addictive and you will have physical side effects from discontinuing use.
> All stimulants are addictive and you will have physical side effects from discontinuing use.
I love those side effects though. It is so nice to stop taking them and feel cozy and rest for a few days. The best description I have for it is that it feels like when you get home from a hard days work and are tired and go sit down in your sofa and just relax. Just that the feeling lasts for days! Awesome, right?
I hate being on the meds and I never take them when I don't work, but I have to take them to do any kind of work requiring focus like for example filling out a form.
I love those side effects though. It is so nice to stop taking them and feel cozy and rest for a few days. The best description I have for it is that it feels like when you get home from a hard days work and are tired and go sit down in your sofa and just relax. Just that the feeling lasts for days! Awesome, right?
I hate being on the meds and I never take them when I don't work, but I have to take them to do any kind of work requiring focus like for example filling out a form.
It's a much more difficult withdrawal for many/heavy stimulants users. brain fog, zaps, depression lasting months, messed up dopamine/glutamate and other brain crap.
It sucks there aren't any good meds for addiction treatment for stimulants yet (naltrexone/bupe etc).
Quitting meth, cocaine, prescription stims is really really hard.
It sucks there aren't any good meds for addiction treatment for stimulants yet (naltrexone/bupe etc).
Quitting meth, cocaine, prescription stims is really really hard.
I have never heard of someone having withdrawal symptoms from a prescription dosage of Adderal. I've kept my ears open for one, since this is an exceptionally common anecdote that someone's heard from someone else.
If you have, please point to a source - there's a lot of anecdotal FUD running rampant throughout this thread.
If you have, please point to a source - there's a lot of anecdotal FUD running rampant throughout this thread.
I'm working on ADHD diagnosis now and my doctor was kind enough to let me begin taking Ritalin and then switch to Vyvanse. Medication is literally, demonstrably changing my life for the better.
I used to drink multiple cups of coffee a day and felt like it was almost baseline requirement just to attempt to focus. Actual ADHD medication makes coffee almost obsolete. The first time I took Ritalin it was almost scary to realize how chaotic my mind was minute-to-minute, every day without fail. Suddenly the noise all went away.
It feels like I can actually create coherent sentences. I stop getting overwhelmed by asynchronous communications (Slack, email). The "volume" of every single distraction that used to monopolize my attention gets turned way down. Yeah, I still get distracted -- but now it's a conscious choice to either let that distraction take precedent or to re-focus to the task at hand.
The day to day benefits are great, but the big picture / life-style benefits are the most appreciated. In general my anxiety and stress management is honestly 10x better. I've gone from being stressed over my career choice every week to finally feeling like I can thrive. I stop getting irritated by the most innocuous things someone might say or do. I stop waking up anxious every weekend trying to process the million things I need to get done just to exist and make forward progress in my life. I could go on and on and on about how "real" ADHD is, without even having a formal diagnosis yet.
I'm sure the discussions in this thread regarding the utility and risks of these medications sounds intriguing if you don't have ADHD and already know how to sit still and focus at will. But anyone who doesn't have our experience should understand this shit is honestly helping people live their lives for the better. My only regret is I didn't know sooner.
I used to drink multiple cups of coffee a day and felt like it was almost baseline requirement just to attempt to focus. Actual ADHD medication makes coffee almost obsolete. The first time I took Ritalin it was almost scary to realize how chaotic my mind was minute-to-minute, every day without fail. Suddenly the noise all went away.
It feels like I can actually create coherent sentences. I stop getting overwhelmed by asynchronous communications (Slack, email). The "volume" of every single distraction that used to monopolize my attention gets turned way down. Yeah, I still get distracted -- but now it's a conscious choice to either let that distraction take precedent or to re-focus to the task at hand.
The day to day benefits are great, but the big picture / life-style benefits are the most appreciated. In general my anxiety and stress management is honestly 10x better. I've gone from being stressed over my career choice every week to finally feeling like I can thrive. I stop getting irritated by the most innocuous things someone might say or do. I stop waking up anxious every weekend trying to process the million things I need to get done just to exist and make forward progress in my life. I could go on and on and on about how "real" ADHD is, without even having a formal diagnosis yet.
I'm sure the discussions in this thread regarding the utility and risks of these medications sounds intriguing if you don't have ADHD and already know how to sit still and focus at will. But anyone who doesn't have our experience should understand this shit is honestly helping people live their lives for the better. My only regret is I didn't know sooner.
>My only regret is I didn't know sooner.
Yep!
Always scored 90th percentile in standardized tests (how? no clue.), curious, the lot... just couldn't care about homework or listening in class.
I struggled through 5.5 years of college then years later snapped out of the mindset of "just having to try harder". My parents knew... they had me diagnosed as a kid, but were scared off of stimulants by their church.
I try not to think about what my life could've been.
Yep!
Always scored 90th percentile in standardized tests (how? no clue.), curious, the lot... just couldn't care about homework or listening in class.
I struggled through 5.5 years of college then years later snapped out of the mindset of "just having to try harder". My parents knew... they had me diagnosed as a kid, but were scared off of stimulants by their church.
I try not to think about what my life could've been.
I'm a parent who's scared about my child's potential need for this. We're just entering the diagnosis pipeline now. I'd like to give you an opportunity to convince me that I shouldn't be resisting that sort of thing, which is my (admittedly somewhat unfounded) reaction.
I was diagnosed around age 15 and started taking Concerta. It was life-changing for a while, but it started feeling less helpful over time. I remember feeling like my energy/attention was a zero-sum game, and I had to pay it back at the end of the day.
I was frustrated with these side-effects in college, so I quit the meds as a freshman. I got through college and even a masters degree, but it was a slog. While working at my first "real" job, I felt like I'd hit a brick wall. It was near impossible for me to stay focused during the day. I went back to my doctor and started taking Vyvanse, which I've been on for ~5 years now. This drug has been really amazing, and I don't feel totally sapped at the end of the day. (My layman's understanding is that it's a pro-drug, so your liver has to chop the molecules apart to produce the actual amphetamine. It has a slower ramp-up and ramp-down than the Concerta did.)
One thing to consider is sleep quality. It turns out I had an obstructive sinus blockage for many years. I got it removed surgically and feel amazing. I still take meds to deal with underlying ADHD symptoms, but I could actually be a functioning adult without the meds at this point.
I was frustrated with these side-effects in college, so I quit the meds as a freshman. I got through college and even a masters degree, but it was a slog. While working at my first "real" job, I felt like I'd hit a brick wall. It was near impossible for me to stay focused during the day. I went back to my doctor and started taking Vyvanse, which I've been on for ~5 years now. This drug has been really amazing, and I don't feel totally sapped at the end of the day. (My layman's understanding is that it's a pro-drug, so your liver has to chop the molecules apart to produce the actual amphetamine. It has a slower ramp-up and ramp-down than the Concerta did.)
One thing to consider is sleep quality. It turns out I had an obstructive sinus blockage for many years. I got it removed surgically and feel amazing. I still take meds to deal with underlying ADHD symptoms, but I could actually be a functioning adult without the meds at this point.
Although I feel like my childhood was OK, I dropped out of highschool and from the age of 17 to age 27 I worked a _total_ of 1 year split across 5 different jobs.
If you're worried about the effect medication might have, I understand, I'm a parent and I'm 99% sure my boy has it as he's exactly like me. I would implore you to consider the abject danger that untreated ADHD presents to its sufferers. Shorter life span by on average 12 years. It's a much worse diagnosis than people realise. The transition into adulthood took me a decade. It was rough. Really, really rough. I only got diagnosed last year at 32. Medication or not, what you should endeavour to do is monitor if it goes into remission in early adulthood for them or not, and keep them educated on the topic so they can understand how/why they experience life the way they do. I'm not medicated myself at the moment (because thus far I haven't responded to it) but being aware of it has made a big, big difference.
If you're worried about the effect medication might have, I understand, I'm a parent and I'm 99% sure my boy has it as he's exactly like me. I would implore you to consider the abject danger that untreated ADHD presents to its sufferers. Shorter life span by on average 12 years. It's a much worse diagnosis than people realise. The transition into adulthood took me a decade. It was rough. Really, really rough. I only got diagnosed last year at 32. Medication or not, what you should endeavour to do is monitor if it goes into remission in early adulthood for them or not, and keep them educated on the topic so they can understand how/why they experience life the way they do. I'm not medicated myself at the moment (because thus far I haven't responded to it) but being aware of it has made a big, big difference.
I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning, if anything it is great that you are questioning whether it is the right path.
I do appreciate and understand that ADHD tends to be over-diagnosed to children due to them being... children.
I don't necessarily know what I would've done if I had been in my parent's shoes beyond actually listening, being empathetic and using my adult knowledge of the world to help. They took the meds away before I even got used to them and that was the end of meds until I got them myself last year (16 years later).
There is a whole pit of co-morbid issues in my adolescence that I believe being a considerate parent would entirely avoid. I can't definitively say that ADHD was the one thing that changed my life trajectory or made me bad at my day-to-day schooling.
I am not a doctor but I can't see the harm in starting low to get your kid into building an organizational system, study habits, learning what helps them work best, etc, so they can hopefully come / stay off the meds. No one wants to be medicated for life, not even doctors want you on any medication forever; the less you can put in, the better. Meds may not be needed, meds may be needed. It entirely depends on how much your kid is struggling, what kind of relationship you have (do they feel they can trust you and say bluntly what they need and are struggling with, is that something they are emotionally capable of voicing, etc.).
Medication isn't a panacea obviously and if you can help your kid get organized, both of you feel they can stay on top of work according to what's reasonable for their age and listen to them with patience and empathy, that will likely be as much as you can do as their parent.
My parents had high standards for me but rather than asking "how can we help? what do you need?" kindly and being someone I could rely on for help, they would scream at me and say various things that seemed helpful ("You're not average, average isn't good enough") but just ingrained that I was broken and worthless because I was trying, I was doing as much as I could and still wasn't making it.
The only reason I got diagnosed as a kid was that my brother was being diagnosed at the same time. There was no concern for me individually, it was a 'package deal' of pushing all the kids through the pipeline to figure out what was 'wrong with us'.
I am ranting now... :)
---
Not to assume, but I figured I'd include this because this is _my_ next mental health adventure of figuring out officially: ADHD is co-morbid with Asperger's. The two also have many cross-overs (emotional sensitivity, sensory issues, seeming aloof, etc.) so it's worth a mention to totally rule out or gain a better context of how to give your kid the best shot. Asperger's is not at all an awful sentence of misery and awfulness to not be caught until later. Both ADHD and ASD are better 'caught' early obviously, so you and others can help create support systems to improve quality-of-life.
---
I feel like my parents viewed parenting as factory line; each kid gets the same input and we expect the same output; if we don't get the same output, the kid is broken not your parenting style. Maybe this is just good parenting, but I would encourage you to consider the perspective of meeting each one (assuming you have multiple!) where they are at individually rather than where you or others expect them to be. Something I wish my parents had done was tell anyone and everyone to "fuck off" with their expectations rather than tossing me under the bus for being 'weird'.
I do appreciate and understand that ADHD tends to be over-diagnosed to children due to them being... children.
I don't necessarily know what I would've done if I had been in my parent's shoes beyond actually listening, being empathetic and using my adult knowledge of the world to help. They took the meds away before I even got used to them and that was the end of meds until I got them myself last year (16 years later).
There is a whole pit of co-morbid issues in my adolescence that I believe being a considerate parent would entirely avoid. I can't definitively say that ADHD was the one thing that changed my life trajectory or made me bad at my day-to-day schooling.
I am not a doctor but I can't see the harm in starting low to get your kid into building an organizational system, study habits, learning what helps them work best, etc, so they can hopefully come / stay off the meds. No one wants to be medicated for life, not even doctors want you on any medication forever; the less you can put in, the better. Meds may not be needed, meds may be needed. It entirely depends on how much your kid is struggling, what kind of relationship you have (do they feel they can trust you and say bluntly what they need and are struggling with, is that something they are emotionally capable of voicing, etc.).
Medication isn't a panacea obviously and if you can help your kid get organized, both of you feel they can stay on top of work according to what's reasonable for their age and listen to them with patience and empathy, that will likely be as much as you can do as their parent.
My parents had high standards for me but rather than asking "how can we help? what do you need?" kindly and being someone I could rely on for help, they would scream at me and say various things that seemed helpful ("You're not average, average isn't good enough") but just ingrained that I was broken and worthless because I was trying, I was doing as much as I could and still wasn't making it.
The only reason I got diagnosed as a kid was that my brother was being diagnosed at the same time. There was no concern for me individually, it was a 'package deal' of pushing all the kids through the pipeline to figure out what was 'wrong with us'.
I am ranting now... :)
---
Not to assume, but I figured I'd include this because this is _my_ next mental health adventure of figuring out officially: ADHD is co-morbid with Asperger's. The two also have many cross-overs (emotional sensitivity, sensory issues, seeming aloof, etc.) so it's worth a mention to totally rule out or gain a better context of how to give your kid the best shot. Asperger's is not at all an awful sentence of misery and awfulness to not be caught until later. Both ADHD and ASD are better 'caught' early obviously, so you and others can help create support systems to improve quality-of-life.
---
I feel like my parents viewed parenting as factory line; each kid gets the same input and we expect the same output; if we don't get the same output, the kid is broken not your parenting style. Maybe this is just good parenting, but I would encourage you to consider the perspective of meeting each one (assuming you have multiple!) where they are at individually rather than where you or others expect them to be. Something I wish my parents had done was tell anyone and everyone to "fuck off" with their expectations rather than tossing me under the bus for being 'weird'.
Hi justasidenote2, I'm at 60% scrolling down this whole hacker news crap thing, and I finally found a post that I think makes any sense at all.
First of all, make sure you get that diagnosis. Don't go wild with the medication thing, because the first thing that the medication should do is bring you from the "giving up in advance" level to the "ooh, I can learn about and try some things that might help me to take control of my own life" level.
And for now, start ignoring "anyone who doesn't have our experience" and what they think and shout, because I think you won't start to feel any better after reading all of that.
Hans
P.S. my un-scientific explanation for the overload of stress reactions (and anxiety and panic attacks) is that in absence of 'neurotypical' ways to get us going, the body goes into an emergency stress loop, producing stress hormones and adrenaline all the time, to try get us going to do anything at all.
First of all, make sure you get that diagnosis. Don't go wild with the medication thing, because the first thing that the medication should do is bring you from the "giving up in advance" level to the "ooh, I can learn about and try some things that might help me to take control of my own life" level.
And for now, start ignoring "anyone who doesn't have our experience" and what they think and shout, because I think you won't start to feel any better after reading all of that.
Hans
P.S. my un-scientific explanation for the overload of stress reactions (and anxiety and panic attacks) is that in absence of 'neurotypical' ways to get us going, the body goes into an emergency stress loop, producing stress hormones and adrenaline all the time, to try get us going to do anything at all.
I 100% agree with not just relying on the meds and moving on, even though the new ability to maintain focus and context switch without overwhelm is so novel in its own right. But yeah, I'm currently on a waitlist for the diagnostic testing and am seeing a therapist who specializes in the condition.
The most fascinating part of this journey is finally understanding myself better. I've been spending hours every week reading others experiences with ADHD, watching videos (Dr. Russell Barkley is awesome), and in general just figuring out who I am and why I'm that way. I'm beginning to understand that habits I've had, such as being "hyper organized" (actually, being utterly dependent on my calendar) were just coping mechanisms needed to get things done. It almost warrants an entire self-evaluation.
Your description of the stress response seems plausible. All my life I've oscillated pretty strictly between hyper-anxious and utterly indifferent, the latter probably serving as a coping mechanism. Suddenly now I'm able to comfortably live in the middle ground. I'll do what needs done today, and know that what needs done next week/month/year will get addressed when it's time.
Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback and wisdom. Wishing you the best of luck.
The most fascinating part of this journey is finally understanding myself better. I've been spending hours every week reading others experiences with ADHD, watching videos (Dr. Russell Barkley is awesome), and in general just figuring out who I am and why I'm that way. I'm beginning to understand that habits I've had, such as being "hyper organized" (actually, being utterly dependent on my calendar) were just coping mechanisms needed to get things done. It almost warrants an entire self-evaluation.
Your description of the stress response seems plausible. All my life I've oscillated pretty strictly between hyper-anxious and utterly indifferent, the latter probably serving as a coping mechanism. Suddenly now I'm able to comfortably live in the middle ground. I'll do what needs done today, and know that what needs done next week/month/year will get addressed when it's time.
Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback and wisdom. Wishing you the best of luck.
> caffeine does help from my testing
My doctor put it this way: Caffeine triggers a useful dopamine response, but the side effects are strong at "useful" levels.
Ritalin and Adderall provide a stronger dopamine response with fewer side effects at "useful" levels.
They're all stimulants, but the magnitude of the useful vs. non-useful effects differs.
My doctor put it this way: Caffeine triggers a useful dopamine response, but the side effects are strong at "useful" levels.
Ritalin and Adderall provide a stronger dopamine response with fewer side effects at "useful" levels.
They're all stimulants, but the magnitude of the useful vs. non-useful effects differs.
For me it’s ~300mg caffeine to almost be as good as 10mg Ritalin, but I have to re-dose the caffeine often. Think a gram or more a day.
Both have an impact on cardiovascular health, but my impression is that Ritalin and the like are much safer than what people self-medicate with.
Both have an impact on cardiovascular health, but my impression is that Ritalin and the like are much safer than what people self-medicate with.
> Get diagnosed and get a low-dose of meds. It helps _a lot_. You will likely hate the feeling they give you for the first week (you will genuinely feel high even on 10mg Adderall XR), along with nightmares and night sweats but after a few weeks, you'll suddenly be productive at a very normal level.
I wonder if I could have persisted long enough with Adderall to find a theraputic effect if it had been during lockdown. 10mg of Adderall made me unsafe to drive to work (I would suddenly get the subjective sense that my car was completely still and instead all the parked cars on the side of the road were hurtling at me at 25 mph).
My doctor actually started me on a higher dose (15 or 20mg maybe?) because I needed such a high dose of Ritalin to get a theraputic effect (and at that high of a dose it greatly impacted my sleep). I took it exactly once and I didn't feel tired for 36 hours and was completely non-productive. For the first time I finally understood what all that clinical language describing the symptoms of a manic episode were all about.
Vyvanse did not feel nearly as bad subjectively, but my wife insisted I change meds because I was (in her words) "an asshole" while on it.
Finally settled in on 20-30mg of Focalin a day. The year of titrating the doses of each medication was hell. And then when we finally figured it out, my company switched insurers I had to change the pill sizes (not total quantity) to get it covered with the new insurance.
The one thing I'd like to add is that diet for me made a huge difference. I might as well not be taking the meds if I have a carb-heavy breakfast. Prior to taking the meds I had quit eating breakfast altogether because I felt like such crap around lunchtime if I ate breakfast. Obviously taking stimulants on an empty stomach is not a great idea, and my psychiatrist helped me out to go for a breakfast that doesn't provoke such a strong insulin response.
I wonder if I could have persisted long enough with Adderall to find a theraputic effect if it had been during lockdown. 10mg of Adderall made me unsafe to drive to work (I would suddenly get the subjective sense that my car was completely still and instead all the parked cars on the side of the road were hurtling at me at 25 mph).
My doctor actually started me on a higher dose (15 or 20mg maybe?) because I needed such a high dose of Ritalin to get a theraputic effect (and at that high of a dose it greatly impacted my sleep). I took it exactly once and I didn't feel tired for 36 hours and was completely non-productive. For the first time I finally understood what all that clinical language describing the symptoms of a manic episode were all about.
Vyvanse did not feel nearly as bad subjectively, but my wife insisted I change meds because I was (in her words) "an asshole" while on it.
Finally settled in on 20-30mg of Focalin a day. The year of titrating the doses of each medication was hell. And then when we finally figured it out, my company switched insurers I had to change the pill sizes (not total quantity) to get it covered with the new insurance.
The one thing I'd like to add is that diet for me made a huge difference. I might as well not be taking the meds if I have a carb-heavy breakfast. Prior to taking the meds I had quit eating breakfast altogether because I felt like such crap around lunchtime if I ate breakfast. Obviously taking stimulants on an empty stomach is not a great idea, and my psychiatrist helped me out to go for a breakfast that doesn't provoke such a strong insulin response.
> (swapping meds for a year)
Definitely feel you there. It's the worst part about psychiatric drugs and why I've bailed on almost everyone I've ever been on. It's that initial hump and having to struggle through ~two weeks of hell.
My partner has run the gamut so he constantly assured me it was normal and that I'd be fine.
>The one thing I'd like to add is that diet for me made a huge difference. I might as well not be taking the meds if I have a carb-heavy breakfast. Prior to taking the meds I had quit eating breakfast altogether because I felt like such crap around lunchtime if I ate breakfast. Obviously taking stimulants on an empty stomach is not a great idea, and my psychiatrist helped me out to go for a breakfast that doesn't provoke such a strong insulin response.
Diet is my next interest but haven't gotten tools perfected to track the variables that I think will be affected (productivity, happiness, energy and sleep).
I am vaguely on the train of diet affecting productivity but my daily lunch is a McDouble and large caffeine-free soda to sip on so... non-conclusive currently. I also skip breakfast because of the same reasons (too heavy + no good breakfast foods, even 30-in-30 always slows me down)
I have found that many 'healthy' foods make me feel sick or worsen productivity so I am tentatively sticking to my weird diet for now. I have suspicions I may have food allergies and that could be causing it.
Definitely feel you there. It's the worst part about psychiatric drugs and why I've bailed on almost everyone I've ever been on. It's that initial hump and having to struggle through ~two weeks of hell.
My partner has run the gamut so he constantly assured me it was normal and that I'd be fine.
>The one thing I'd like to add is that diet for me made a huge difference. I might as well not be taking the meds if I have a carb-heavy breakfast. Prior to taking the meds I had quit eating breakfast altogether because I felt like such crap around lunchtime if I ate breakfast. Obviously taking stimulants on an empty stomach is not a great idea, and my psychiatrist helped me out to go for a breakfast that doesn't provoke such a strong insulin response.
Diet is my next interest but haven't gotten tools perfected to track the variables that I think will be affected (productivity, happiness, energy and sleep).
I am vaguely on the train of diet affecting productivity but my daily lunch is a McDouble and large caffeine-free soda to sip on so... non-conclusive currently. I also skip breakfast because of the same reasons (too heavy + no good breakfast foods, even 30-in-30 always slows me down)
I have found that many 'healthy' foods make me feel sick or worsen productivity so I am tentatively sticking to my weird diet for now. I have suspicions I may have food allergies and that could be causing it.
My theory is I get a bit hypoglycemic with the typical American breakfast of pastry/bagel/cereal, but I kind-of don't care why.
Bacon is my go-to breakfast food; can cook up a bunch at a time and heat up what I need in the morning. I make some eggs to go with it if I have the time. The great thing about bacon for me is that it's so salty that I cannot overeat on it.
Bacon is my go-to breakfast food; can cook up a bunch at a time and heat up what I need in the morning. I make some eggs to go with it if I have the time. The great thing about bacon for me is that it's so salty that I cannot overeat on it.
Low carb and one-meal-a-day intermittent fasting both make a huge difference for me. There's something about eating, carbs especially, that just dulls my ability to focus. My wife has been pushing me to get tested for food allergies and I plan to this year. Diagnosed ADHD as a child, fwiw.
Counter-anecdata here: meds aren't always the best option for people. Don't bias toward taking amphetamines as the parent comment instructs you to do.
There are serious negative long-term effects from taking amphetamines regularly. Such advice as above is very one-size-fits-all, and in my view is thus really bad advice.
> Ignore the people screaming about Adderall being "literal meth" and how it will certainly kill you.
You can ignore those people because they're wrong, amphetamine is not methamphetamine. But do not ignore the people who tell you that even normal amphetamines (adderall) are not harmless. They cause harm, even at low doses.
The harm they cause may be mitigated by the benefit they bring; it may also be extremely difficult to estimate their harm in advance. Ceasing regular use of amphetamines for some people can result in subsequent YEARS of oversleeping, lethargy, and depression from dopamine receptor downregulation.
> I don't feel strung out nor is it some addiction.
Amphetamines are a highly addictive substance, if you are taking them every day it is likely that your body has developed at least some physical dependence upon them. Addiction doesn't make itself known until you stop.
There are serious negative long-term effects from taking amphetamines regularly. Such advice as above is very one-size-fits-all, and in my view is thus really bad advice.
> Ignore the people screaming about Adderall being "literal meth" and how it will certainly kill you.
You can ignore those people because they're wrong, amphetamine is not methamphetamine. But do not ignore the people who tell you that even normal amphetamines (adderall) are not harmless. They cause harm, even at low doses.
The harm they cause may be mitigated by the benefit they bring; it may also be extremely difficult to estimate their harm in advance. Ceasing regular use of amphetamines for some people can result in subsequent YEARS of oversleeping, lethargy, and depression from dopamine receptor downregulation.
> I don't feel strung out nor is it some addiction.
Amphetamines are a highly addictive substance, if you are taking them every day it is likely that your body has developed at least some physical dependence upon them. Addiction doesn't make itself known until you stop.
We're talking about ADHD though, not someone looking to just pull some all-nighters or cram on a Sunday night.
When I realized there was a low dose medication that could basically cure me of ADHD (thus cure me of underperformance, procrastinating my ambitions, low professional self-esteem), the choice was obvious. Know what also does harm? Underperformance, procrastinating my ambitions, low professional self-esteem. Far worse than any side-effect from amphetamine. And I'd take on much worse harms if they would cure my ADHD like amphetamine does.
Edit: lol, when I started my reply to you, your comment was two sentences long. Take it easy.
Btw, I'm in my mid-30s and I've been taking amphetamine since I was 18. Perfect bill of health. Though, granted, there's plenty of life left.
When I realized there was a low dose medication that could basically cure me of ADHD (thus cure me of underperformance, procrastinating my ambitions, low professional self-esteem), the choice was obvious. Know what also does harm? Underperformance, procrastinating my ambitions, low professional self-esteem. Far worse than any side-effect from amphetamine. And I'd take on much worse harms if they would cure my ADHD like amphetamine does.
Edit: lol, when I started my reply to you, your comment was two sentences long. Take it easy.
Btw, I'm in my mid-30s and I've been taking amphetamine since I was 18. Perfect bill of health. Though, granted, there's plenty of life left.
Stimulant addictions are one of the most common functional addictions.
I don't think most people would consider someone servicing an active physical dependency to have a "perfect bill of health", even if you are totally free from disease.
I don't think most people would consider someone servicing an active physical dependency to have a "perfect bill of health", even if you are totally free from disease.
Mental disease is a disease too. The options are either to have ADHD, which is a potentially very destructive disease, or to have a low-grade dependency on stimulants with few side-effects that can be severed in a week or two.
Of course, many medications that aren't psychotropic fit the bill. Corticosteroids, for a common example, lead to physical dependency too. Most medications lead to some kind of physical dependency after prolonged use, it's just sometimes of very low grade.
The second option is much better from any pathological point of view.
To note, perfect health doesn't exist. We're all broken in some way :)
Of course, many medications that aren't psychotropic fit the bill. Corticosteroids, for a common example, lead to physical dependency too. Most medications lead to some kind of physical dependency after prolonged use, it's just sometimes of very low grade.
The second option is much better from any pathological point of view.
To note, perfect health doesn't exist. We're all broken in some way :)
You are making assumptions the parent did not imply. You can be on ADHD meds and not be addicted to them, ffs. I am on low-dose adderall xr on days that I need it and I have never had an issue. Everyone is different, but to imply that the adderall has caused an “active physical dependency” is no different from stating that too many people drink caffeine (except that because I only take it as needed it’s not even a fair comparison).
You’d be right, but it does not do significant harm, especially given how therapeutic the right drug can be in the right doses.
Can it do significant harm? Sure. So can Ibuprofen.
You’d be right, but it does not do significant harm, especially given how therapeutic the right drug can be in the right doses.
Can it do significant harm? Sure. So can Ibuprofen.
I take ADHD meds, and I will admit I have a dependency. When I go without my meds, I'm in a really bad mood the first day and get much worse the following days. That said, I don't have an addiction disorder, because it doesn't impair my ability to work, maintain relationships, pursue goals, or remain healthy. In fact, it does the opposite. That's why my doctor prescribes them.
(As an aside, the reason I've gone days without meds is because my insurance company has a harmful policy of requiring "prior authorization" from the same doctor who prescribes the pills, and more than once I've found out it needed renewed from a pharmacist who was only allowed to try filling it the day I took my last pill. I'm tired of this incredibly helpful medication, and the people who depend on it, being thought less of.)
(As an aside, the reason I've gone days without meds is because my insurance company has a harmful policy of requiring "prior authorization" from the same doctor who prescribes the pills, and more than once I've found out it needed renewed from a pharmacist who was only allowed to try filling it the day I took my last pill. I'm tired of this incredibly helpful medication, and the people who depend on it, being thought less of.)
> someone servicing an active physical dependency to have a "perfect bill of health"
Is taking immunosuppressants also a physical dependency or a functional addiction?
Is taking immunosuppressants also a physical dependency or a functional addiction?
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> Don't bias toward taking amphetamines as the parent comment instructs you to do.
What's the alternative? CBT is not sufficient when your brain doesn't want to work. Executive function disorder is a huge part of being ADHD.
> There are serious negative long-term effects from taking amphetamines regularly
Citation needed for therapeutic dosages.
> They cause harm, even at low doses.
Citation definitely needed for therapeutic dosages.
> Ceasing regular [...] subsequent YEARS of oversleeping, lethargy, and depression
Citation really really needed here for therapeutic dosages.
Anecdotal advice like this is exceptionally harmful to those who need these meds to just reach "functional adult" levels of normal.
What's the alternative? CBT is not sufficient when your brain doesn't want to work. Executive function disorder is a huge part of being ADHD.
> There are serious negative long-term effects from taking amphetamines regularly
Citation needed for therapeutic dosages.
> They cause harm, even at low doses.
Citation definitely needed for therapeutic dosages.
> Ceasing regular [...] subsequent YEARS of oversleeping, lethargy, and depression
Citation really really needed here for therapeutic dosages.
Anecdotal advice like this is exceptionally harmful to those who need these meds to just reach "functional adult" levels of normal.
What's harmful is telling people without qualification that they should seek dangerous and addictive medication without a careful cost/benefit analysis.
My comment isn't saying that you shouldn't, it's saying that there are downsides that are not apparent that must be weighed against the upsides—same as any medication. Even ibuprofen can fuck up your stomach, each remedy must be evaluated on its risks and merits.
I speak from extreme personal experience. Same team!
My comment isn't saying that you shouldn't, it's saying that there are downsides that are not apparent that must be weighed against the upsides—same as any medication. Even ibuprofen can fuck up your stomach, each remedy must be evaluated on its risks and merits.
I speak from extreme personal experience. Same team!
> that they should seek dangerous and addictive medication
We're not telling folks to go on a meth binge. We're telling folks that this doctor prescribed medication actually works, and can help improve their lives.
To use your own ibuprofin example - what your parent statement is proposing equals: "Don't use ibuprofin for your chronic inflammation, even though your doctor prescribed it for you."
EDIT: If COVID has taught me anything, it's that we as human beings are poorly equipped to make appropriate cost/benefit analysis when it comes to medical advice. Especially when it comes to anecdotal experiences. And doubally especially when you're already suffering from untreated ADHD.
We're not telling folks to go on a meth binge. We're telling folks that this doctor prescribed medication actually works, and can help improve their lives.
To use your own ibuprofin example - what your parent statement is proposing equals: "Don't use ibuprofin for your chronic inflammation, even though your doctor prescribed it for you."
EDIT: If COVID has taught me anything, it's that we as human beings are poorly equipped to make appropriate cost/benefit analysis when it comes to medical advice. Especially when it comes to anecdotal experiences. And doubally especially when you're already suffering from untreated ADHD.
I do agree that it can cause harm long term. It's the same with all medications, that's why I pay doctors to prescribe medication and monitor my health while taking it. I already have physicals every six months because of another condition. With the Adderall, I get blood pressure taken monthly and an EKG every three months.
The goal of almost any medication is to create a stop gap to create or find non-medication solutions. Without Adderall, I can't focus on creating systems and tools to help me stay on track.
Demonizing Adderall isn't helping anyone. No one should be afraid of taking a medication that will change their life for the better. If someone goes through normal channels and gets properly prescribed it, they should be treated no different than any other ailment.
The goal of almost any medication is to create a stop gap to create or find non-medication solutions. Without Adderall, I can't focus on creating systems and tools to help me stay on track.
Demonizing Adderall isn't helping anyone. No one should be afraid of taking a medication that will change their life for the better. If someone goes through normal channels and gets properly prescribed it, they should be treated no different than any other ailment.
I didn't demonize anything, and if you think I did, you should probably re-read my comment dispassionately and stop trying to do battle on the internet.
Your comment opens with:
> Get diagnosed and get a low-dose of meds.
Immediately suggesting that someone seek a somewhat dangerous medication as a solution, without qualification, is an extreme and dangerous view. "You have ADD so you should try low doses of speed!" is not wisdom. There is a reason that these are prescribed by doctors, and monitored.
Your comment opens with:
> Get diagnosed and get a low-dose of meds.
Immediately suggesting that someone seek a somewhat dangerous medication as a solution, without qualification, is an extreme and dangerous view. "You have ADD so you should try low doses of speed!" is not wisdom. There is a reason that these are prescribed by doctors, and monitored.
One requires getting diagnosed to get medication. I am not advocating buying Adderall from a dealer. I am encouraging people not to be afraid to pursue the medication route because it is so demonized.
Medication helps a lot. You could struggle with no medication, trying to build a system to help yourself, possibly fail and never be who you can be or you can seek out professional help (potentially with medication) and begin building support today and have a good shot.
---
Would you say the same if I encouraged a depressed person to do their best to get diagnosed and get on 'anti-depressants'? I am doubtful.
We have invented medication for a reason. People go to decades of med school for a reason. Medical professionals know what they are doing and are very upfront about it not being a panacea and needing to still work on non-medication solutions (as with any medication).
I will admit my first sentence ("Get diagnosed and get a low-dose of meds") was too strong to start with.
Medication helps a lot. You could struggle with no medication, trying to build a system to help yourself, possibly fail and never be who you can be or you can seek out professional help (potentially with medication) and begin building support today and have a good shot.
---
Would you say the same if I encouraged a depressed person to do their best to get diagnosed and get on 'anti-depressants'? I am doubtful.
We have invented medication for a reason. People go to decades of med school for a reason. Medical professionals know what they are doing and are very upfront about it not being a panacea and needing to still work on non-medication solutions (as with any medication).
I will admit my first sentence ("Get diagnosed and get a low-dose of meds") was too strong to start with.
> Would you say the same if I encouraged a depressed person to do their best to get diagnosed and get on 'anti-depressants'? I am doubtful.
Don't be: many studies have shown CBT to be equally as effective for depression (for most people) as medication. If you are equally likely to cure your issues with a book on CBT versus a pill, that is something you should consider, even if you do end up deciding for the pill.
I encourage people to evaluate the costs and benefits of ALL their options before seeking any specific treatment for issues that involve neurochemistry. My entire thrust is "medication is not a panacea and you should not bias toward using it, over any other option, as a solution".
For some it may be the best choice. For many it is not. Don't bias toward it (as you advocate). Evaluate, don't just go get pills because some random person on the internet said it worked for them that one time.
If you put the wrong thing in your body, you can fuck yourself up for a very long time. I am speaking from direct personal experience.
Don't be: many studies have shown CBT to be equally as effective for depression (for most people) as medication. If you are equally likely to cure your issues with a book on CBT versus a pill, that is something you should consider, even if you do end up deciding for the pill.
I encourage people to evaluate the costs and benefits of ALL their options before seeking any specific treatment for issues that involve neurochemistry. My entire thrust is "medication is not a panacea and you should not bias toward using it, over any other option, as a solution".
For some it may be the best choice. For many it is not. Don't bias toward it (as you advocate). Evaluate, don't just go get pills because some random person on the internet said it worked for them that one time.
If you put the wrong thing in your body, you can fuck yourself up for a very long time. I am speaking from direct personal experience.
> Don't be: many studies have shown CBT to be equally as effective for depression (for most people) as medication
But this is not the case for ADHD. ADHD has one of if not the strongest case where there is a direct curative effect of medication.
But this is not the case for ADHD. ADHD has one of if not the strongest case where there is a direct curative effect of medication.
Many studies have shown therapy and medication work better together.
People medicated for ADHD with stimulants tend to live 7-9 years longer on average.
Adderall is not the only medication. Other stimulants are from different families and all of them come in a variety of formulations / dose releasing mechanisms.
There is at least one non-stimulant drug that can be prescribed (atomoxetine), but it doesn't work for a lot of people (including me).
There is at least one non-stimulant drug that can be prescribed (atomoxetine), but it doesn't work for a lot of people (including me).
I found atomoxetine only mildly useful and the side effects (slight increase in blood pressure) to bother me enough to stop using it.
However, I want to mention modafinil (particularly as no-one else has mentioned it in this discussion). It has worked for me and there is evidence to its effectiveness as a non-stimulant medication for ADHD - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11191692/ - although it's technically an off-label use.
However, I want to mention modafinil (particularly as no-one else has mentioned it in this discussion). It has worked for me and there is evidence to its effectiveness as a non-stimulant medication for ADHD - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11191692/ - although it's technically an off-label use.
Kidney damage? What effects?
This is a super-edge-case but if you happen to want to be a pilot (either small planes all the way up to airlines), the FAA considers ADHD and other attention-deficit conditions to be disqualifying. If you're taking medication for ADHD or similar conditions and want to be a pilot, you're dead in the water until you get off them and can show that you don't have some kind of attention difficulty. FYI!
You need the non-ADHD people to fly the the regular boring things from A to B, and you need the ADHD people to be able to take the right decisions about what to do in a split second while being under extreme duress in a war zone.
Almost any medical condition disqualifies you. Almost any medication taken regularly does too.
I am interested in getting my private pilot's license and I _should_ be able to get a Class 3 Medical from what I've seen, but that will be a bit away so I have time.
What I've seen and heard from others is to just lie. Seems like many have gotten to the point of realizing trying to do it right is only going to put you in months of bureaucracy and spend thousands proving your viability.
The FAA needs to figure out how to either commission studies to reduce their list of disqualifications or streamline the process of appealing your medical certification.
I am interested in getting my private pilot's license and I _should_ be able to get a Class 3 Medical from what I've seen, but that will be a bit away so I have time.
What I've seen and heard from others is to just lie. Seems like many have gotten to the point of realizing trying to do it right is only going to put you in months of bureaucracy and spend thousands proving your viability.
The FAA needs to figure out how to either commission studies to reduce their list of disqualifications or streamline the process of appealing your medical certification.
Most common medical history items fall under something called CACI: Conditions AMEs Can Issue. (Yes, that's an acronym in an acronym. Welcome to the FAA. AME is the doctor you see for your flight physical, which you probably already know, but other readers might not.) The vast majority of folks walk out of their flight physicals with a medical certificate thanks to CACI.
ADHD does not fall under CACI, and will trigger a deferral to the FAA. The FAA will then refer the applicant to a HIMS AME. (Human Intervention Motivation Study.) HIMS is really about substance abuse, not ADHD, but it's doing double-duty now for things like ADHD and the four conditionally approvable SSRIs. ADHD can also trigger expensive neurocognitive tests ("CogScreen"). So ADHD really is in a separate class of conditions when it comes to getting a medical certificate.
Current use of stimulants is a denial no matter what.
As a flight instructor I think this is completely bonkers. The nature of ADHD is such that if it keeps a person from being able to fly safely, that will show up during training as a failure to meet performance standards. It's completely different from something like a heart condition, where a pilot will fly just fine until suddenly their heart stops. I've taught lots of folks with ADHD diagnoses; almost all of them did great, and the few that didn't were very obviously not able to handle the airplane.
ADHD does not fall under CACI, and will trigger a deferral to the FAA. The FAA will then refer the applicant to a HIMS AME. (Human Intervention Motivation Study.) HIMS is really about substance abuse, not ADHD, but it's doing double-duty now for things like ADHD and the four conditionally approvable SSRIs. ADHD can also trigger expensive neurocognitive tests ("CogScreen"). So ADHD really is in a separate class of conditions when it comes to getting a medical certificate.
Current use of stimulants is a denial no matter what.
As a flight instructor I think this is completely bonkers. The nature of ADHD is such that if it keeps a person from being able to fly safely, that will show up during training as a failure to meet performance standards. It's completely different from something like a heart condition, where a pilot will fly just fine until suddenly their heart stops. I've taught lots of folks with ADHD diagnoses; almost all of them did great, and the few that didn't were very obviously not able to handle the airplane.
Thank you for the kind response to my inaccurate post. You can tell my frustration on this.
And yes, I do love acronyms in acronyms. My first job was in the government, the US gov't truly loves their acronyms.
And yes, I do love acronyms in acronyms. My first job was in the government, the US gov't truly loves their acronyms.
I empathize 100% with your frustration. I went through the wringer to get my first medical and have watched a lot of students go through this. It sucks, and there’s no good reason for it to.
Fascinating, but appears to make sense. Hopefully, some day we will be able to quantify the difference so that people like me (who do worry that they can't stay on top of all the details in a plane) are excluded from flying¹ while other people who have a similar condition to mine but are capable of flying are allowed to do so.
¹ As much as I want to.
¹ As much as I want to.
Personally, as a person with ADHD, I am fine with that restriction.
> Ignore the people screaming about Adderall being "literal meth"
Just a fun fact: Literal meth is called deoxyephedrine when it's prescribed for ADHD. Anyone that was awake for intro Chem will know why.
Just a fun fact: Literal meth is called deoxyephedrine when it's prescribed for ADHD. Anyone that was awake for intro Chem will know why.
Seconded on L-Theanine, definitely helps if I get jitters. I usually avoid caffeine bc of this, since the adderall at a correct dose seems to work great but socially it’s hard to avoid caffeine.
I love soda too much to kick caffeine entirely. Never got on the coffee train thankfully.
I've tried to kick caffeine multiple times but always fall back during stress. I just can't find another (cheap) drink I enjoy sipping on.
My harm reduction is a Soda Stream, which at least lowers my overall sugar intake. I don't understand sparkling water, I've tried it and it is less enticing than plain water.
I've tried to kick caffeine multiple times but always fall back during stress. I just can't find another (cheap) drink I enjoy sipping on.
My harm reduction is a Soda Stream, which at least lowers my overall sugar intake. I don't understand sparkling water, I've tried it and it is less enticing than plain water.
L-Theanine is sadly not sold in Sweden in tablets. I have tried to find. As Tea really has a very calming effect on me.
> Lastly, caffeine does help from my testing, especially caffeine combined with L-Theanine. I used to take 100mg of HVMN "Sprint" pills as a test whether I had ADHD; it helped quite a bit. It didn't make me jittery and it let me focus much better.
Caffeine is an adenosine A2A receptor antagonist.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_A2A_receptor_antagon...
You may want to check out this paper, Adenosine A2Areceptor as potential therapeutic target in neuropsychiatric disorders: https://scihubtw.tw/10.1016/j.phrs.2019.104338
Caffeine has a problem though:
> Moreover, considering that caffeine has a half-life of 2.5-4.5 hours [137]the once-a-day schedule of administration used in clinical trials in ADHD patients could be insufficient to antagonize A2AR throughout the day; thus, in future trials different administration schedules should be used or, as an alternative, selective A2AR antagonists could be tested in animal models of ADHD. In particular, it would be interesting to test the efficacy of the A2AR antagonist istradefylline in view of its approval for the treatment of Parkinson’s disease in Japan [138].
Ironically, I just started taking Nourianz (istradefylline) (link: https://www.nourianz.com/) as a last-resort drug for my severe restless legs syndrome, which has been going phenomenally well. I also have ADHD combined type (inattention and hyperactivity), and fairly severely.
Anyways, I have been taking the the istradefylline for a week now, and it has made a tremendous difference in many of my ADHD symptoms. In addition, it greatly increased my sense of wellbeing within 1-2 hours of initially taking it, and it has been sustained for the entire week.
I hope you find this interesting! I take Vyvanse for my ADHD.
Thanks to istradefylline I can now focus seamlessly and without effort. I can just "lock in" to whatever I want to do. Before, it would require some static force ("friction") to be able to "lock in" my concentration to do the task. I can also just focus, without hyperfocusing. It now comes naturally to me. I also no longer find myself pacing around the house aimlessly. I also do not randomly get up from my seat or fidget hardcore. I can also lock back into a flow state without effort if I am disrupted.
Caffeine is an adenosine A2A receptor antagonist.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_A2A_receptor_antagon...
You may want to check out this paper, Adenosine A2Areceptor as potential therapeutic target in neuropsychiatric disorders: https://scihubtw.tw/10.1016/j.phrs.2019.104338
Caffeine has a problem though:
> Moreover, considering that caffeine has a half-life of 2.5-4.5 hours [137]the once-a-day schedule of administration used in clinical trials in ADHD patients could be insufficient to antagonize A2AR throughout the day; thus, in future trials different administration schedules should be used or, as an alternative, selective A2AR antagonists could be tested in animal models of ADHD. In particular, it would be interesting to test the efficacy of the A2AR antagonist istradefylline in view of its approval for the treatment of Parkinson’s disease in Japan [138].
Ironically, I just started taking Nourianz (istradefylline) (link: https://www.nourianz.com/) as a last-resort drug for my severe restless legs syndrome, which has been going phenomenally well. I also have ADHD combined type (inattention and hyperactivity), and fairly severely.
Anyways, I have been taking the the istradefylline for a week now, and it has made a tremendous difference in many of my ADHD symptoms. In addition, it greatly increased my sense of wellbeing within 1-2 hours of initially taking it, and it has been sustained for the entire week.
I hope you find this interesting! I take Vyvanse for my ADHD.
Thanks to istradefylline I can now focus seamlessly and without effort. I can just "lock in" to whatever I want to do. Before, it would require some static force ("friction") to be able to "lock in" my concentration to do the task. I can also just focus, without hyperfocusing. It now comes naturally to me. I also no longer find myself pacing around the house aimlessly. I also do not randomly get up from my seat or fidget hardcore. I can also lock back into a flow state without effort if I am disrupted.
How strange. My initial dose made me feel almost sleepy. I'm usually high-energy at night time, but now I go to bed before midnight.
> caffeine does help from my testing, especially caffeine combined with L-Theanine.
One thing that made me look into adderall was finding out I was a slow metabolizer of caffeine via 23andme, and was consuming an unhealthy level of caffeine. I did some research and determined that the health risks of low doses of adderall were smaller than those of high doses of caffeine.
Scott Alexander’s review of the research on Adderall are also worth reading:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo...
One thing that made me look into adderall was finding out I was a slow metabolizer of caffeine via 23andme, and was consuming an unhealthy level of caffeine. I did some research and determined that the health risks of low doses of adderall were smaller than those of high doses of caffeine.
Scott Alexander’s review of the research on Adderall are also worth reading:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo...
>the health risks of low doses of adderall were smaller than those of high doses of caffeine.
I hadn't seen that before, so thank you!
I ran into this same thing accidentally, I was regularly 'overdosing' on caffeine by drinking 300 - 400mg of caffeine per day in college.
The safe dosage is ~200mg for an adult if I recall, but I can only do about 100 - 125mg absolute max or my heart starts pounding. I am not sure if this lowered limit is due to 'abuse' or if I also have different caffeine metabolization. I will have to take a look at my data.
I hadn't seen that before, so thank you!
I ran into this same thing accidentally, I was regularly 'overdosing' on caffeine by drinking 300 - 400mg of caffeine per day in college.
The safe dosage is ~200mg for an adult if I recall, but I can only do about 100 - 125mg absolute max or my heart starts pounding. I am not sure if this lowered limit is due to 'abuse' or if I also have different caffeine metabolization. I will have to take a look at my data.
>The safe dosage is ~200mg for an adult if I recall
No? It is 400mg
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...
No? It is 400mg
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...
Yeah, without diving back into it myself right now, the health effects of caffeine are quite different depending on a single SNP. For fast metabolizers some doses of caffeine above 300mg/day can actually have net positive effects on cardiac health, while the opposite is true for slow metabolizers. I got into a habit of 400mg+ doses per day and the cumulative effect that had on sleep quality alone was a good reason to find an alternative.
I completely agree with your comments about looking for opportunities to use medication to bootstrap into better habits around exercise, mindfulness, and building better systems and habits.
I completely agree with your comments about looking for opportunities to use medication to bootstrap into better habits around exercise, mindfulness, and building better systems and habits.
I'm still not sold on the medication and prefer to follow strict routines + good diet + exercise. To me, it's obvious who is taking ADHD pills. People are almost zombie like or they space out, or even on low-doses they almost can't "keep up" in conversation or meetings. Not being drugged and finding coping mechanisms has allowed me to plow through multiple degrees and find career success, albeit at the cost of "other things", relationships, social skills, health, etc. I'm not going to risk my livelihood when life is good-enough atm.
Good for you, I am glad you have found something that works for you.
It is inappropriate and rude to assume what others need. I am the complete opposite of what you assume on Adderall, I am more verbose, my thoughts are more coherent and I can keep up with meetings because I can actually pay attention to them. The first time my spouse heard me conduct an interview after medications, he told me how much more cohesive, steady and assured my speaking was.
It helps no one, not even yourself, to tear down someone else because they are using a different solution than you.
It is inappropriate and rude to assume what others need. I am the complete opposite of what you assume on Adderall, I am more verbose, my thoughts are more coherent and I can keep up with meetings because I can actually pay attention to them. The first time my spouse heard me conduct an interview after medications, he told me how much more cohesive, steady and assured my speaking was.
It helps no one, not even yourself, to tear down someone else because they are using a different solution than you.
You prefer to do the exact things that people with ADHD struggle with. This is like saying “for depression I prefer to just not be sad.”
It wasn’t until after I was diagnosed and medicated that I finished my undergrad after almost a decade, started my career, and started grad school. You do you, but don’t be sanctimonious about mental health treatment based on your anecdotes.
It wasn’t until after I was diagnosed and medicated that I finished my undergrad after almost a decade, started my career, and started grad school. You do you, but don’t be sanctimonious about mental health treatment based on your anecdotes.
> People are almost zombie like or they space out, or even on low-doses they almost can't "keep up" in conversation or meetings.
What you describe sounds more like symptoms of untreated ADHD rather than treated ADHD.
What you describe sounds more like symptoms of untreated ADHD rather than treated ADHD.
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Or sleep deprivation...
People who are sleep deprived will actually have many of the symptoms of ADHD; poor subjective sense of time, difficulty focusing, &c.
To make matters worse ADHDers often have terrible sleep quality due to not being able to get to bed on time because there's almost always something more interesting.
This comment strikes me as full of ignorance.
Strict routines? Good diet? Exercise???
Good luck doing any of these if you have even moderate ADHD. It's hard enough getting out of bed.
As a sibling mentions, your description of people who are "drugged" sounds more like people who have undiagnosed-ADHD and are not medicated.
The drugs don't make you drugged -- that's sorta the default state. The drugs make you functional enough to try and develop coping mechanisms in the first place.
Strict routines? Good diet? Exercise???
Good luck doing any of these if you have even moderate ADHD. It's hard enough getting out of bed.
As a sibling mentions, your description of people who are "drugged" sounds more like people who have undiagnosed-ADHD and are not medicated.
The drugs don't make you drugged -- that's sorta the default state. The drugs make you functional enough to try and develop coping mechanisms in the first place.
ADHD medication has different effects on people, and you’ll
know very quickly what it’s effect is on you. Furthermore, it does not make me spaced out or zombie like, nor does it make me strung out. It simply calms my brain down so I can actually focus on the problem at hand, rather than the opposite of that, with my brain flitting back and forth with other thoughts.
I don’t take it on a day when I’m being creative or brainstorming, because the lateral thinking required does that is actually something ADD helps, but I take it when I have to get something done.
Take it from a guy who has had ample coping mechanisms, got a CS degree from MIT, founded and sold a security startup, etc.; all of those coping mechanisms worked, but got much easier once I accepted the ADD and found the right meds. It only made me more productive and a better contributing member of the team.
YMMV, but I suspect your assumptions about how it affects people are very wrong.
I don’t take it on a day when I’m being creative or brainstorming, because the lateral thinking required does that is actually something ADD helps, but I take it when I have to get something done.
Take it from a guy who has had ample coping mechanisms, got a CS degree from MIT, founded and sold a security startup, etc.; all of those coping mechanisms worked, but got much easier once I accepted the ADD and found the right meds. It only made me more productive and a better contributing member of the team.
YMMV, but I suspect your assumptions about how it affects people are very wrong.
I got diagnosed with ADHD age 15. Methylphenidate gave me these zombie like spacing out symptoms. I later switched to Amphetamine and didn't feel the negative side effects of Methylphenidate.
Methylphenidate is the only authorized substance for ADHD treatment here in Germany. I had to pay for my Amphetamine treatment by myself. I had the impression that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't have an interest in getting an authorization for amphetamines as that substance can be produced by a local pharmacy on site. Even thou I can confirm that the side effects are much less with amphetamines.
Now age 35 I haven't taken any medications for ADHD for 8 or 9 years. It was good to help me with school and university but now I don't need to put myself into a position where medication could be helpful. Still wouldn't want to work in an open floor plan office. Not sure if that is an medical condition.
Methylphenidate is the only authorized substance for ADHD treatment here in Germany. I had to pay for my Amphetamine treatment by myself. I had the impression that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't have an interest in getting an authorization for amphetamines as that substance can be produced by a local pharmacy on site. Even thou I can confirm that the side effects are much less with amphetamines.
Now age 35 I haven't taken any medications for ADHD for 8 or 9 years. It was good to help me with school and university but now I don't need to put myself into a position where medication could be helpful. Still wouldn't want to work in an open floor plan office. Not sure if that is an medical condition.
Amphetamine got authorised in Germany a year ago in the form of Lisdexamphetamine under the name of Elvanse: https://www.adhspedia.de/wiki/Elvanse_Adult
I got it from my doctor and have been taking it for a year after trying Methylphenidate which did not show any positive effect on me.
I got it from my doctor and have been taking it for a year after trying Methylphenidate which did not show any positive effect on me.
How is Lisdex for you? I've recently been considering asking my doc if I can try it out.
I'm currently on a rather high daily dosage of Medikinet CR (2x30mg + another 1x20mg on long days if anyone's curious). It works but too inconsistently. It's also rather expensive here in the Netherlands.
I'm currently on a rather high daily dosage of Medikinet CR (2x30mg + another 1x20mg on long days if anyone's curious). It works but too inconsistently. It's also rather expensive here in the Netherlands.
I started with 50 mg, and I experienced a heavy effect for first couple weeks: very calm and clear thinking, but the focus was too heavy - I often fell into “deep thinking / introspection sessions” with my body frozen and an unfocussed stare. It could happen in the middle of a conversation. I thought I would need a lower dosage, but this initial heavy effect was gone soon, and the focus became milder.
Now I am on 50 mg. The medicine stimulates my focus and makes me more enthusiastic about activities, which can be annoying since I need to control not to apply my new powers on wrong or useless activities. I am also very verbose for couple hours after taking a pill. I would not say I am completely cured from ADHD. In the evenings, positive effect disappears, so I need to plan accordingly.
I avoid drinking coffee in the morning now, as the combination of two stimulants makes me shaky, I experience muscle tension, and it affects my ability to interact with people.
We tried 70mg with the doctor as well, but it made me aggressive and grim in couple months without noticeable improvements over 50mg. To manage tolerance I often skip taking pills on weekends. I also lost a few kilograms, which is good.
All in all, I am only half satisfied with the result - based on what I read I expected a better effect. I think my type of ADHD may be addressed with more sophisticated medication. Unfortunately, in Germany there are not a lot of other options to try, and my doctor seems to lack experience in treating ADHD. I try to combine pills with diet, exercises, and sleep management.
Now I am on 50 mg. The medicine stimulates my focus and makes me more enthusiastic about activities, which can be annoying since I need to control not to apply my new powers on wrong or useless activities. I am also very verbose for couple hours after taking a pill. I would not say I am completely cured from ADHD. In the evenings, positive effect disappears, so I need to plan accordingly.
I avoid drinking coffee in the morning now, as the combination of two stimulants makes me shaky, I experience muscle tension, and it affects my ability to interact with people.
We tried 70mg with the doctor as well, but it made me aggressive and grim in couple months without noticeable improvements over 50mg. To manage tolerance I often skip taking pills on weekends. I also lost a few kilograms, which is good.
All in all, I am only half satisfied with the result - based on what I read I expected a better effect. I think my type of ADHD may be addressed with more sophisticated medication. Unfortunately, in Germany there are not a lot of other options to try, and my doctor seems to lack experience in treating ADHD. I try to combine pills with diet, exercises, and sleep management.
Thank you for the detailed response! There does indeed seem to be a lot of hype surrounding Lisdex in the more common places were ADHD is discussed.
With regards to the effects this particular type of medication has on your behaviour, you have essentially described me - but on Medikinet, on those odd days when it decides to just work that way.
In the Netherlands we have a specialised ADHD treatment centre called ADHD-Centraal. I've been extremely impressed with their methods, their high level of competence, and with their care and involvement. The fact that they really know what they're doing also shows in the tiny practical adjustments they've made to their workflows to accommodate or even compensate for "the likes of us"!. I'll gladly provide you with direct contact details for you to pass on to your doc or call directly if you believe there's something to be gained in that.
Unfortunately, as you mention, the medication options are limited and at some point you're going to run out of things to try.
The main reason I'm not on Dextroamphetamine is that it registers on the quick saliva drug test that the Dutch police carries. It is amphetamine after all. When that happens, you'll get fined for driving under influence, and won't be allowed to drive for a few hours which is very annoying. The bigger problem is that if you're ever involved in an accident and the presence of amphetamines in your system was registered, you might even get a criminal record plus the insurance might decide not to pay out. Impractical to say the least...
Long acting or slow release Methylphenidate medication - such as the Medikinet I'm on, is only partially covered by Dutch health insurance. Legislators have decided that the short acting variants are identical and that anything else is essentially a luxury. They would quickly change their minds if you'd lock them in a room with me when I'm suffering from disastrous rebounds every hour on short acting Ritalin :)
With regards to the effects this particular type of medication has on your behaviour, you have essentially described me - but on Medikinet, on those odd days when it decides to just work that way.
In the Netherlands we have a specialised ADHD treatment centre called ADHD-Centraal. I've been extremely impressed with their methods, their high level of competence, and with their care and involvement. The fact that they really know what they're doing also shows in the tiny practical adjustments they've made to their workflows to accommodate or even compensate for "the likes of us"!. I'll gladly provide you with direct contact details for you to pass on to your doc or call directly if you believe there's something to be gained in that.
Unfortunately, as you mention, the medication options are limited and at some point you're going to run out of things to try.
The main reason I'm not on Dextroamphetamine is that it registers on the quick saliva drug test that the Dutch police carries. It is amphetamine after all. When that happens, you'll get fined for driving under influence, and won't be allowed to drive for a few hours which is very annoying. The bigger problem is that if you're ever involved in an accident and the presence of amphetamines in your system was registered, you might even get a criminal record plus the insurance might decide not to pay out. Impractical to say the least...
Long acting or slow release Methylphenidate medication - such as the Medikinet I'm on, is only partially covered by Dutch health insurance. Legislators have decided that the short acting variants are identical and that anything else is essentially a luxury. They would quickly change their minds if you'd lock them in a room with me when I'm suffering from disastrous rebounds every hour on short acting Ritalin :)
> they space out, or even on low-doses they almost can't "keep up" in conversation or meetings
For some of us this is the experience without any medication. I still get this now with medication, but it's definitely less frequent.
For some of us this is the experience without any medication. I still get this now with medication, but it's definitely less frequent.
> hard time focusing on things that I don’t like or want to do
Not trying to be insensitive, but doesn't that describe everybody? At what point does difficulty motivating yourself to do something unpleasant become an actual pathology? I identify with a lot of the symptoms he lists, but I've never thought that meant there was anything "wrong" with me, I thought everybody felt that way. Are there really people out there who can cheerfully do things they don't want to do?
Not trying to be insensitive, but doesn't that describe everybody? At what point does difficulty motivating yourself to do something unpleasant become an actual pathology? I identify with a lot of the symptoms he lists, but I've never thought that meant there was anything "wrong" with me, I thought everybody felt that way. Are there really people out there who can cheerfully do things they don't want to do?
There are, of course, levels. For me the difference is between spending 15 hours non-stop programming, or spending two months unable to open a ticket because it's menial, being unable to start important schoolwork that is too menial until 1h before the due date, and so on.
I've been like this since I remember, and I really can't do anything to fix it. It has a large negative effect on my life. But of course, it's not just that, for example often I literally cannot pay attention to a direct interlocutor, or can't keep myself focused during final exams.
I've been like this since I remember, and I really can't do anything to fix it. It has a large negative effect on my life. But of course, it's not just that, for example often I literally cannot pay attention to a direct interlocutor, or can't keep myself focused during final exams.
If you're in university, then you're probably in a place that has resources that can help. Take advantage of them. For example, you may have access to an occupational therapist who can help you improve how you organize and schedule your work, create effective workplace, avoid distractions, etc. Medication may also help, but it works best in conjunction with active behavioral changes.
There is no substitute for medication. For me a life without medication is a life of hating myself for not being able to do trivial things.
I tried all of those things you mentioned for over a decade and was often driven to tears trying to do simple things. I never did assignments for courses etc, causing some of my grades to stay bad even though I did great on the tests since tests kicks up your adrenaline making it easier to focus. Not because I didn't care about the grades but because I simply couldn't do the assignments. Then I got medication and suddenly everything in college and later work just became trivial. I stay on the lowest dosage and that is still enough for me to stay at normal levels of focus where I can program for a few hours a day when I need to do it to keep my job and earn money.
So, since medication has been so life changing for me I really hate when people say that you can manage ADHD symptoms just with lifestyle changes. Maybe in some cases, but many people absolutely need medication and discouraging such people from receiving it will ruin lives.
I tried all of those things you mentioned for over a decade and was often driven to tears trying to do simple things. I never did assignments for courses etc, causing some of my grades to stay bad even though I did great on the tests since tests kicks up your adrenaline making it easier to focus. Not because I didn't care about the grades but because I simply couldn't do the assignments. Then I got medication and suddenly everything in college and later work just became trivial. I stay on the lowest dosage and that is still enough for me to stay at normal levels of focus where I can program for a few hours a day when I need to do it to keep my job and earn money.
So, since medication has been so life changing for me I really hate when people say that you can manage ADHD symptoms just with lifestyle changes. Maybe in some cases, but many people absolutely need medication and discouraging such people from receiving it will ruin lives.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's possible to treat ADHD with just behavioral changes or occupational therapy. That wasn't true in your case and it wasn't true in my case either. In my case, medication has been eye-opening and life-changing. When I went back to school, however, I also found it helpful to work with an occupational therapist to set up specific strategies for staying organized, keeping up with assignments, effectively using my studying time, and minimizing distractions. Working with an OT who understood ADHD was different from just trying to adopt general studying strategies and it really helped me succeed in grad school. If the parent poster is in university, an OT may be an available resource.
If I regret anything, it's not getting diagnosed until I was in my 30s. I wasted years of my life doing poorly in school, being depressed about it, blaming my performance on being depressed, and then dropping out of school. I eventually graduated, only 10 years late and with a 2.2 GPA. After getting diagnosed and treated, I went to graduate school and finished in the top 15% of my class with a 3.7 GPA. I think I've redeemed myself, but I won't get any of those wasted years back.
If I regret anything, it's not getting diagnosed until I was in my 30s. I wasted years of my life doing poorly in school, being depressed about it, blaming my performance on being depressed, and then dropping out of school. I eventually graduated, only 10 years late and with a 2.2 GPA. After getting diagnosed and treated, I went to graduate school and finished in the top 15% of my class with a 3.7 GPA. I think I've redeemed myself, but I won't get any of those wasted years back.
“Depression, isn’t that a fancy word for just feeling ‘bummed out?’”
But seriously, a lot of conditions are just universal human experiences that are severe enough to impact your daily life. We all get depressed, but we all don’t have depression
But seriously, a lot of conditions are just universal human experiences that are severe enough to impact your daily life. We all get depressed, but we all don’t have depression
Do your motivation problems keep recurring, causing real problems at work/school, at home or in your personal relationships in a way that is beyond your control and that has persisted for more than six months?
If you answer yes to this, I would recommend talking to a professional. No one can diagnose you online (with the exception of professionals offering remote sessions).
If you answer yes to this, I would recommend talking to a professional. No one can diagnose you online (with the exception of professionals offering remote sessions).
The same as with anything else: when it becomes debilitating. Observe other problems that are similar:
* Everyone encounters back pain at some point. It's only an illness when acute or chronic.
* Most people have some desire for ordered patterns so lots of people will do things like avoid cracks in tiles because it is satisfying. Not a disorder until you absolutely must not step on a crack or it will cause you to need to go through some ritual.
* Everyone encounters back pain at some point. It's only an illness when acute or chronic.
* Most people have some desire for ordered patterns so lots of people will do things like avoid cracks in tiles because it is satisfying. Not a disorder until you absolutely must not step on a crack or it will cause you to need to go through some ritual.
> but I've never thought that meant there was anything "wrong" with me
That's a good dividing line between 'actual pathology' as you say and normal experiences.
I always felt like something was wrong with me. From childhood, I was different. Never could put my finger on it, but a lifetime of experiences gave me some intuition that I was different, in a bad way, and that was just my lot in life. Fast forward to my early thirties, and after being fired from every job I'd ever had I reached rock bottom. I was a 'gifted' student, elite engineering degree and a law degree, but just consistently failed to live up to my potential. I finally dragged myself in to a therapist's office because I had intense and intrusive suicidal thoughts nearly all day every day for months. I didn't want to kill myself, I had a lot to live for, but some part of my subconscious was absolutely fed up and done. I never once thought that I was someone who could have ADHD. I was bright, I had a decent academic record, and I had gotten several high paying jobs. ADHD was about jittery kids or losers working menial jobs, not me. By the end of my first session, as my therapist would later reveal, he knew I had ADHD. It took some time for me to accept it. But once I did, and got on board with treatment including medication and regular therapy, my life changed. It made so much sense in retrospect. I did have a good academic record, but that's only because I could hyperfocus and ace exams - I never did homework on a regular basis from grade school through grad school. I wanted to, but never did. I did get high paying jobs, but would wind up being fired a year or two later because getting a job is exciting, keeping a job and, you know, doing a job, is boring. At least to a part of my ADHD brain it is. Everyone experienced boredom, but how many people let that boredom get them to a point of being unemployed when they have a wife and children to support? It's not a choice.
Frankly, I'm lucky that I happened to meet the right therapist at the right time that recognized the ADHD that was causing so much turmoil in my life, and I am forever grateful because I truly believe that without realizing it was ADHD and treating it, my children would have lost a father. ADHD is real, and it's serious. I ask you and everyone reading this who doubts ADHD is real to please try to find some empathy.
That's a good dividing line between 'actual pathology' as you say and normal experiences.
I always felt like something was wrong with me. From childhood, I was different. Never could put my finger on it, but a lifetime of experiences gave me some intuition that I was different, in a bad way, and that was just my lot in life. Fast forward to my early thirties, and after being fired from every job I'd ever had I reached rock bottom. I was a 'gifted' student, elite engineering degree and a law degree, but just consistently failed to live up to my potential. I finally dragged myself in to a therapist's office because I had intense and intrusive suicidal thoughts nearly all day every day for months. I didn't want to kill myself, I had a lot to live for, but some part of my subconscious was absolutely fed up and done. I never once thought that I was someone who could have ADHD. I was bright, I had a decent academic record, and I had gotten several high paying jobs. ADHD was about jittery kids or losers working menial jobs, not me. By the end of my first session, as my therapist would later reveal, he knew I had ADHD. It took some time for me to accept it. But once I did, and got on board with treatment including medication and regular therapy, my life changed. It made so much sense in retrospect. I did have a good academic record, but that's only because I could hyperfocus and ace exams - I never did homework on a regular basis from grade school through grad school. I wanted to, but never did. I did get high paying jobs, but would wind up being fired a year or two later because getting a job is exciting, keeping a job and, you know, doing a job, is boring. At least to a part of my ADHD brain it is. Everyone experienced boredom, but how many people let that boredom get them to a point of being unemployed when they have a wife and children to support? It's not a choice.
Frankly, I'm lucky that I happened to meet the right therapist at the right time that recognized the ADHD that was causing so much turmoil in my life, and I am forever grateful because I truly believe that without realizing it was ADHD and treating it, my children would have lost a father. ADHD is real, and it's serious. I ask you and everyone reading this who doubts ADHD is real to please try to find some empathy.
How did you find the right therapist? If you're in the Bay, do you mind dropping the name of them? Email on my profile if you prefer.
I resonate with literally everything you're saying, I just don't have kids.
> At what point does difficulty motivating yourself to do something unpleasant become an actual pathology?
At the point where it causes a significant and ongoing problem in your personal or professional life.
"Lost track of time and wasted half an hour on HN" - Not a pathology.
"Wasted half a week on HN and was unable to stop even though you really, truly wanted to get your work done?" - Maybe pathology.
"Did that most weeks for months on end." - See a doctor.
At the point where it causes a significant and ongoing problem in your personal or professional life.
"Lost track of time and wasted half an hour on HN" - Not a pathology.
"Wasted half a week on HN and was unable to stop even though you really, truly wanted to get your work done?" - Maybe pathology.
"Did that most weeks for months on end." - See a doctor.
There's a clinical psychologist that describes it as a disorder in large part characterized by a lack of executive function. In other words, you can't necessarily make yourself do what you're supposed to unless you have a desire to do it. So your desires tend to take priority or distract from your wants or needs. And obviously like all disorders it has to be debilitating to some degree–usually interference with two or more areas in your life (home, professional, school, etc.).
ADHD is tough to understand and appreciate for those who don't have it for this exact reason. Everyone experiences all most of the ADHD (except the interal chatter arising from your Default Mode Network / Task Positive Network anti-correlation being broken), so they often dismiss it or say "but everyone has a little ADHD" or "everyone feels that way".
The difference is in frequency, severity and duration.
In my case I've spent north of 1000 nights in the past 5 years doing the dishes at either 1am, 2am or 3am because I cannot stop doing what I want to do and direct my attention towards the dishes until it's the absolute last possible minute of the day. Often then it's just so painful to me to do it. It nearly caused my marriage to break down because I would leave them undone. No matter what I try I can't get myself to do them straight after dinner. Night after night I would wonder to myself "I wish I knew what this was called". I didn't seriously think there was something wrong with me, I just couldn't understand why I couldn't , despite my best efforts, get myself to behave in a different way.
And that's just one facet of my life and how it affects me. There's more and they just pile up. When you add it all up together and you consider pound for pound how I'm doing you start to appreciate the frequency, severity and duration that can be considered pathological.
It presents pretty differently across people, but by and large a diagnosis is a huge penny dropping revelation.
The difference is in frequency, severity and duration.
In my case I've spent north of 1000 nights in the past 5 years doing the dishes at either 1am, 2am or 3am because I cannot stop doing what I want to do and direct my attention towards the dishes until it's the absolute last possible minute of the day. Often then it's just so painful to me to do it. It nearly caused my marriage to break down because I would leave them undone. No matter what I try I can't get myself to do them straight after dinner. Night after night I would wonder to myself "I wish I knew what this was called". I didn't seriously think there was something wrong with me, I just couldn't understand why I couldn't , despite my best efforts, get myself to behave in a different way.
And that's just one facet of my life and how it affects me. There's more and they just pile up. When you add it all up together and you consider pound for pound how I'm doing you start to appreciate the frequency, severity and duration that can be considered pathological.
It presents pretty differently across people, but by and large a diagnosis is a huge penny dropping revelation.
> Are there really people out there who can cheerfully do things they don't want to do?
It isn't about cheerfully doing it, it is about most menial tasks being impossible to do without days or even weeks of mental preparation and/or lifestyle changes. Imagine filling out a paper form causing as much anxiety as proposing to the love of your life and you understand better what ADHD feels like. You can learn to live with that, but if you have it you are pretty sure not everyone feels like that all the time.
It isn't about cheerfully doing it, it is about most menial tasks being impossible to do without days or even weeks of mental preparation and/or lifestyle changes. Imagine filling out a paper form causing as much anxiety as proposing to the love of your life and you understand better what ADHD feels like. You can learn to live with that, but if you have it you are pretty sure not everyone feels like that all the time.
There's been a few good responses, but for me, I saw a doctor when I was able to eliminate anything that would arguably be a distraction when I needed to finish my 95% finished essay 2 years ago. The subject was literally Byzantine in nature and all the hard parts were done, but If I recall, I just needed to do a tiny edit or summary to wrap it up. This was a final project worth around 30% of the grade. What might happen once you eliminate all ways to distract yourself, all anxieties etc.. is that you just get it done, because the value proposition is enough to stimulate you to do it. For me? I fell asleep, and idk how I did on it. What happens about a month into any new job? I gradually show up later and later. What happens 6 months into any job? I lose it.
I couldn't possibly read your comment as insensitive, because the opposite is on my mind every day. I fundamentally don't understand how people can consistently do most types of software engineering or any other kinds of boring office job, day in day out, because it's their job. It's so foreign, as to be a completely alien idea.
I couldn't possibly read your comment as insensitive, because the opposite is on my mind every day. I fundamentally don't understand how people can consistently do most types of software engineering or any other kinds of boring office job, day in day out, because it's their job. It's so foreign, as to be a completely alien idea.
It's actually a good question. I think the best insight I got on the topic was reading an article once about how to tell the difference between a child being gifted or having ADHD or being both. This is difficult since they often have similar traits, especially having a hard time completing certain menial tasks. The difference is that a gifted child without ADHD can complete these tasks if he likes the teacher giving him the task, while the one with ADHD will still struggle to complete it despite really wanting to do so.
Do you have a link to this article? Asking for a friend (no, really)
It's more with the severity of it.
When it comes to tasks that you don't "want to do", it could be really ANY other task than what you want to do.
Imagine that you have some homework that's due, a work deadline that's absolutely imperative that you can meet, bills that have to be paid, or important call with your doctor - for the discussion, think of any task that's really important that you do.
Now imagine that your brain fees like...looking up some trivial thing on wikipedia, or similar. Just silly stuff that has no real importance - and is orders of magnitudes less important than what you need to focus on.
Now imagine that your brain and body is fighting all it can, for you to continue with the trivial task, and blocking the important stuff. You almost go into a trance.
You might be able to detach from some trivial task for a minute or two, only to get sucked back in.
Because it's such an invisible condition, it's hard to really know how bad it is. In the same way that people that have never suffered from migraines, might believe that migraines must be regular headaches, and that people that suffer from migraines might just be on the softer side.
When it comes to tasks that you don't "want to do", it could be really ANY other task than what you want to do.
Imagine that you have some homework that's due, a work deadline that's absolutely imperative that you can meet, bills that have to be paid, or important call with your doctor - for the discussion, think of any task that's really important that you do.
Now imagine that your brain fees like...looking up some trivial thing on wikipedia, or similar. Just silly stuff that has no real importance - and is orders of magnitudes less important than what you need to focus on.
Now imagine that your brain and body is fighting all it can, for you to continue with the trivial task, and blocking the important stuff. You almost go into a trance.
You might be able to detach from some trivial task for a minute or two, only to get sucked back in.
Because it's such an invisible condition, it's hard to really know how bad it is. In the same way that people that have never suffered from migraines, might believe that migraines must be regular headaches, and that people that suffer from migraines might just be on the softer side.
To me this makes more sense in conjunction with hyperfocus.
I find it hard to focus on things unless I'm hyperfocused, partly because I'm distracted by the thing I'm hyperfocused on.
I also tend to always be hyperfocused on one thing at a time for a while and then switch over to a new thing.
Things that I may not like or want to do kind of melt away when I'm hyperfocused on something, and feel like they're amplified when I'm not.
I find it hard to focus on things unless I'm hyperfocused, partly because I'm distracted by the thing I'm hyperfocused on.
I also tend to always be hyperfocused on one thing at a time for a while and then switch over to a new thing.
Things that I may not like or want to do kind of melt away when I'm hyperfocused on something, and feel like they're amplified when I'm not.
I didn't get diagnosed until my late 20s, so I feel like I can articulate some of the differences. One of the things that contributed to that is that I am incredibly lucky in that math, statistics, and computer science are the things that most capture my interest. It never really manifested itself in my school work until now, graduate school, where things become a lot more open-ended and self-driven. I need incremental goals or I start to flounder.
I went to the doctor for depression, but she said that it seemed a lot like diagnosed ADHD (which often manifests itself as depression because of dissatisfaction with many aspects of your behavior). Before I start that I'd like to say something that the psychologist that evaluated me told me. The key aspect to ADHD is the dysfunction it causes. I'm not a psychologist or a doctor, but basically the thing that clearly signifies ADHD is the severity of the negative impacts in different aspects of your life.
For me some things that I always hated about myself and frustrated the hell out of other people:
She would ask me to do things and I'd completely forget about them after she left for the day. She'd call on her way home and it would immediately trigger my list of things I was supposed to do. I'd stress out and rush to do them before she got home. It wasn't that I didn't want to do them, or that I didn't care enough to do them. It was that they literally never entered my mind without an external trigger. I tried writing todo lists, and I would just not look at the todo list.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, if something is interesting, I can literally sit in my chair for 20 hours without eating or drinking. If someone tries to talk to me, I literally do not hear them. I don't ignore them, I just don't hear it. This was a lot worse when I lived by myself. I would regularly sit down in the morning to do something and find that I'd completely forgotten to go to class, eat, drink anything, and that it was now 7 in the evening. If I was lucky, then the original task would be complete or almost complete. If I wasn't then I'd spent the last 10 hours weighing the pros and cons of various ways to properly install python on a fresh computer (venv, virtualenv with or without virtualenvwrapper, etc.). For my uses, it literally does not matter, but I've still done this multiple times. I've spent way too much time responding, in excruciating detail, to Reddit/HN comments when all I'm going to get out of it is, "Cool. Thanks."
I know this can sound like standard procrastination, but I absolutely don't want to do these things. I have been in so many arguments about forgotten obligations or accusations of ignoring someone. It's so frustrating. You start to see yourself as someone that's unreliable and incorporate being forgetful and flighty into your own self image.
I and my wife were pretty skeptical at first, but, after my first month on medication, I took care of so many important things that I just hadn't done for years (like applying for the master's degree that I earned as part of my PhD) and got more done on my dissertation than I had in the last four. It's still not easy, but it makes it easier for me. I can actually remember to look at all the lists I make now, and I can stop myself after 10 minutes of an obsessive rabbit hole now instead of after 10 hours when my bladder is bursting.
It's not about cheerfully being able to do things we don't want to do. It's about actually remembering to do them. ADHD isn't about not being able to pay attention to anything. It's about not being able to regulate the things you pay attention to. It's about being able to even out the deeply obsessive blessing/curse attention black hole that is your natural state.
I went to the doctor for depression, but she said that it seemed a lot like diagnosed ADHD (which often manifests itself as depression because of dissatisfaction with many aspects of your behavior). Before I start that I'd like to say something that the psychologist that evaluated me told me. The key aspect to ADHD is the dysfunction it causes. I'm not a psychologist or a doctor, but basically the thing that clearly signifies ADHD is the severity of the negative impacts in different aspects of your life.
For me some things that I always hated about myself and frustrated the hell out of other people:
She would ask me to do things and I'd completely forget about them after she left for the day. She'd call on her way home and it would immediately trigger my list of things I was supposed to do. I'd stress out and rush to do them before she got home. It wasn't that I didn't want to do them, or that I didn't care enough to do them. It was that they literally never entered my mind without an external trigger. I tried writing todo lists, and I would just not look at the todo list.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, if something is interesting, I can literally sit in my chair for 20 hours without eating or drinking. If someone tries to talk to me, I literally do not hear them. I don't ignore them, I just don't hear it. This was a lot worse when I lived by myself. I would regularly sit down in the morning to do something and find that I'd completely forgotten to go to class, eat, drink anything, and that it was now 7 in the evening. If I was lucky, then the original task would be complete or almost complete. If I wasn't then I'd spent the last 10 hours weighing the pros and cons of various ways to properly install python on a fresh computer (venv, virtualenv with or without virtualenvwrapper, etc.). For my uses, it literally does not matter, but I've still done this multiple times. I've spent way too much time responding, in excruciating detail, to Reddit/HN comments when all I'm going to get out of it is, "Cool. Thanks."
I know this can sound like standard procrastination, but I absolutely don't want to do these things. I have been in so many arguments about forgotten obligations or accusations of ignoring someone. It's so frustrating. You start to see yourself as someone that's unreliable and incorporate being forgetful and flighty into your own self image.
I and my wife were pretty skeptical at first, but, after my first month on medication, I took care of so many important things that I just hadn't done for years (like applying for the master's degree that I earned as part of my PhD) and got more done on my dissertation than I had in the last four. It's still not easy, but it makes it easier for me. I can actually remember to look at all the lists I make now, and I can stop myself after 10 minutes of an obsessive rabbit hole now instead of after 10 hours when my bladder is bursting.
It's not about cheerfully being able to do things we don't want to do. It's about actually remembering to do them. ADHD isn't about not being able to pay attention to anything. It's about not being able to regulate the things you pay attention to. It's about being able to even out the deeply obsessive blessing/curse attention black hole that is your natural state.
Also, as you can see. It makes me a terrible editor. I missed several parts where I'd taken out the part introducing my wife into the story, and I made a quite a few silly mistakes. It should read "undiagnosed ADHD" not "diagnosed ADHD".
Saving this comment as a reminder of how my brain works.
No.
You see "hard time focusing" and you think "I, too, find it difficult to focus on things I don't like"
But: you do it. When we say "hard time focusing" we mean things like, oh, driving an unregistered and uninsured car for six months because the idea of going to the DMV is, uhh.
Look it's hard to explain. But it's an inability and one that significantly interferes with living our lives, on a regular basis.
You see "hard time focusing" and you think "I, too, find it difficult to focus on things I don't like"
But: you do it. When we say "hard time focusing" we mean things like, oh, driving an unregistered and uninsured car for six months because the idea of going to the DMV is, uhh.
Look it's hard to explain. But it's an inability and one that significantly interferes with living our lives, on a regular basis.
> At what point does difficulty motivating yourself to do something unpleasant become an actual pathology?
For me it was when I actually could motivate myself to do it... and then still didn't because of shiny external stimuli and daydreams. And a lot of "I know you're really upset, so I promise I'll get my act together and next time that you expect me to... wait... what were we talking about?"
For me it was when I actually could motivate myself to do it... and then still didn't because of shiny external stimuli and daydreams. And a lot of "I know you're really upset, so I promise I'll get my act together and next time that you expect me to... wait... what were we talking about?"
> I thought everybody felt that way.
Does it incur any impact on your life? Was it a thought or a challenge?
Does it incur any impact on your life? Was it a thought or a challenge?
rejectfinite(3)
> Last one -- I have no idea if this is a placebo effect. But caffeine seems to really help.
Yep. As has been mentioned, in this context you're basically using it like Adderall. Unfortunately, the body will build up a tolerance quickly, so I find myself needing to use them sparingly, Adderall especially, otherwise end up feeling the withdrawal symptoms (excessive irritability, more trouble focusing than before medicating).
Yep. As has been mentioned, in this context you're basically using it like Adderall. Unfortunately, the body will build up a tolerance quickly, so I find myself needing to use them sparingly, Adderall especially, otherwise end up feeling the withdrawal symptoms (excessive irritability, more trouble focusing than before medicating).
I'll only drink coffee if I know I have a busy morning and want to power through it. I miss taking Adderall daily but the effect from coffee is almost the same. I don't drink it that often mostly because I don't want a tolerance. Drinking coffee on my less busy mornings just leads me to getting dragged into some low priority task and spending all morning on it when I could be working other things. Sometimes I'll just grab a 300mg energy drink at the store or take a couple Excedrin on an empty stomach if that's all I got.
I've had good luck limiting my caffeine intake to three non-consecutive days a week. Avoids increasing my tolerance too much and allows for plenty of caffeine-free nights of sleep. Seems to work particularly well when paired with fasting.
Same, if possible I try to plan my stimulant intake based on anticipated workload, i.e. I don't want to be using my focus energy if there's nothing requiring it going on. I have noticed that simply changing up the delivery substance can "fake out" the tolerance sometimes, e.g. drinking a cup of coffee might have no effect due to tolerance but drinking a cup of green tea gets my brain going despite the core drug being caffeine for both.
>Sometimes I'll just grab a 300mg energy drink at the store or take a couple Excedrin on an empty stomach if that's all I got.
Not suggesting medication or that you take something you shouldn't; absolutely do your own research!
Look into HVMN Sprint. Pretty long shelf-life, well-controlled dosage and focused on focus rather just ENERGY TO THE MAX.
I loved Monster back in the day but its taste makes me sick just thinking about it.
Not suggesting medication or that you take something you shouldn't; absolutely do your own research!
Look into HVMN Sprint. Pretty long shelf-life, well-controlled dosage and focused on focus rather just ENERGY TO THE MAX.
I loved Monster back in the day but its taste makes me sick just thinking about it.
Caffeine dependence isn't much fun either - whilst I don't know of any long term health impacts, the severe headache when you miss a caffeinated drink in the morning sucks.
I'm on a very similar position. I found my ADHD out just about a year ago. After failing in many areas and going through a divorce, I can see some light at the end of the tunnel now.
Here's what is working well for me:
- reducing the amount of decisions to make. The less, the better. Even my meals are now precooked and I just take them out of the freezer at lunch or dinner time
- 30 minutes of cardiopulmonary exercise
- Ritalin doesn't work really well for me. I don't know why, but muscle relaxers operate wonders. They make me feel a bit slow, but, after all, I think that is what I need. To slow down. It doesn't work 100% of the times, but when it does, the effect is really positive. It allows me to focus and think through things without other ideas popping in my mind.
- I used to feel all the guilt related to unfinished projects, and to punish myself really hard because of them before finally letting them go. My ex-wife was very detrimental on this aspect, making me feel real bad for my "lack of willpower" and stuff like that. Now I have a completely different attitude about unfinished projects. I just keep a file for every project, and register every idea when it pops up (during a walk, or when I'm having trouble getting asleep, for instance). The lack of sense of guilt by itself has been producing a very positive effect. I don't mind anymore if I don't finish even 1% of them. Life is more than that. And now I'm getting benefits from my "divergent" thinking, turning it into creativity. This last week I finished a challenging personal project thanks to an idea I had during some nights of insomnia I endured those days. And I'm feeling great.
- caffeine helps up to a certain point. I don't drink more than 400ml of coffee per day anymore. If I drink too much, I have some 30 minutes of high productivity and creativity and, then, my day gets ruined with lack of focus, anxiety, regrets for not having followed some great career paths when I had the chance, and so on.
- I still watch Netflix, but now during scheduled times. However, I try to be disciplined but not too hard on myself.
- Background white noise help a lot, especially working place noises now that I work from home. There are some nice ones on youtube. And, when I sleep, I always use a big and noisy fan (but I live on a warm region of my country).
Here's what is working well for me:
- reducing the amount of decisions to make. The less, the better. Even my meals are now precooked and I just take them out of the freezer at lunch or dinner time
- 30 minutes of cardiopulmonary exercise
- Ritalin doesn't work really well for me. I don't know why, but muscle relaxers operate wonders. They make me feel a bit slow, but, after all, I think that is what I need. To slow down. It doesn't work 100% of the times, but when it does, the effect is really positive. It allows me to focus and think through things without other ideas popping in my mind.
- I used to feel all the guilt related to unfinished projects, and to punish myself really hard because of them before finally letting them go. My ex-wife was very detrimental on this aspect, making me feel real bad for my "lack of willpower" and stuff like that. Now I have a completely different attitude about unfinished projects. I just keep a file for every project, and register every idea when it pops up (during a walk, or when I'm having trouble getting asleep, for instance). The lack of sense of guilt by itself has been producing a very positive effect. I don't mind anymore if I don't finish even 1% of them. Life is more than that. And now I'm getting benefits from my "divergent" thinking, turning it into creativity. This last week I finished a challenging personal project thanks to an idea I had during some nights of insomnia I endured those days. And I'm feeling great.
- caffeine helps up to a certain point. I don't drink more than 400ml of coffee per day anymore. If I drink too much, I have some 30 minutes of high productivity and creativity and, then, my day gets ruined with lack of focus, anxiety, regrets for not having followed some great career paths when I had the chance, and so on.
- I still watch Netflix, but now during scheduled times. However, I try to be disciplined but not too hard on myself.
- Background white noise help a lot, especially working place noises now that I work from home. There are some nice ones on youtube. And, when I sleep, I always use a big and noisy fan (but I live on a warm region of my country).
Have you tried Adderall? I did not respond well to ritalin, but Adderall really worked for my symptoms.
Not yet. I'll talk to my doctor. Thanks for the advice.
Regular cardio makes me feel "functional" most of the time and I see some advantage on not taking this sort of medicine. But it would be nice to have some "fail over" strategy whenever I be unable to workout or on the not so rare occasions the workout doesn't work.
Regular cardio makes me feel "functional" most of the time and I see some advantage on not taking this sort of medicine. But it would be nice to have some "fail over" strategy whenever I be unable to workout or on the not so rare occasions the workout doesn't work.
I found out I had ADHD and OCD at 33. I even gave a talk on it[1]. I would highly recommend you get officially diagnosed. Not to suggest your partner is wrong, but rather it will open up possibilities you might not otherwise have.
For myself, I say a therapist regarding my OCD, and it really helped me come to grips and understand my OCD. It really helped answer questions I didn't know I had, and helped me better get a handle on both ADHD and OCD.
Thank you for sharing. =)
1. https://www.slideshare.net/jasonlotito/getting-things-done-4...
For myself, I say a therapist regarding my OCD, and it really helped me come to grips and understand my OCD. It really helped answer questions I didn't know I had, and helped me better get a handle on both ADHD and OCD.
Thank you for sharing. =)
1. https://www.slideshare.net/jasonlotito/getting-things-done-4...
Pretty late to this party, but I was diagnosed with mild ADHD at 35, but had lots of signs when I was younger. At 9, my parents were recommended by the elementary school I get medicated, but didn't follow through.
To be up front, my ADHD is quite manageable through "tricks" similar to how the post describes but not as strict/many of them.
At 35, I always wondered what it would have been like if I had been medicated. Who could I have been if focus was easier?
I went to the doctor to get formally diagnosed and get my hands on Ritalin. For me, it was a double edge sword.
For 1 week, the focus was incredible.
I describe the feeling as if I'm a ball. Normally, I'm a ball on top of a hill, where I'm unstable and easily pushed off the hill. Text, emails, news all so easily nudge me and roll me down the hill. It takes incredible effort to stay focused and on the correct spot at the top of the hill.
While on Ritalin for the 1 week, it was as if I was at the bottom of a valley. Texts, coworkers, whatever tried to distract me but it was so easy to return to the thing that I needed to work on even when it wasn't desirable. Things like eng docs or management reviews. Basically, non-coding things.
Sadly, I couldn't continue. My high blood pressure (HBP) was simply too high, 140/100, and my heart felt like it was going to burst out of my chest. The benefits weren't worth the drawbacks for me. We tried non-stimulant alternatives, but they weren't as effective and, to a lesser degree, still had HBP issues.
To be up front, my ADHD is quite manageable through "tricks" similar to how the post describes but not as strict/many of them.
At 35, I always wondered what it would have been like if I had been medicated. Who could I have been if focus was easier?
I went to the doctor to get formally diagnosed and get my hands on Ritalin. For me, it was a double edge sword.
For 1 week, the focus was incredible.
I describe the feeling as if I'm a ball. Normally, I'm a ball on top of a hill, where I'm unstable and easily pushed off the hill. Text, emails, news all so easily nudge me and roll me down the hill. It takes incredible effort to stay focused and on the correct spot at the top of the hill.
While on Ritalin for the 1 week, it was as if I was at the bottom of a valley. Texts, coworkers, whatever tried to distract me but it was so easy to return to the thing that I needed to work on even when it wasn't desirable. Things like eng docs or management reviews. Basically, non-coding things.
Sadly, I couldn't continue. My high blood pressure (HBP) was simply too high, 140/100, and my heart felt like it was going to burst out of my chest. The benefits weren't worth the drawbacks for me. We tried non-stimulant alternatives, but they weren't as effective and, to a lesser degree, still had HBP issues.
I got on CPAP which took my blood pressure wayyy down to normal range which finally let the doc prescribe it to me. Was disappointed when it made absolutely zero difference to my life. I'm considering trying IR instead of SR and see how that goes. Apparently around 20% of people just don't respond to meds. I keep putting off following up with the doc to try change meds etc because of course I do. Haven't given up yet though. Getting my sleep dialed in helps me a lot as it is, so I've seen improvements since getting diagnosed even if meds haven't worked for me yet.
You can usually manage the blood pressure by exercising and eating better. Ritalin makes that easier, so the overall effect could even be positive.
A lot of people seem to be wanting to discuss ADHD medication and Adderall in particular. I highly recommend this writeup: https://lorienpsych.com/2020/10/30/adderall/
It covers a few common myths and misconceptions (eg, around addictiveness).
It covers a few common myths and misconceptions (eg, around addictiveness).
full blown ADHDer here... diagnosed and on meds from 2-6th grade, and then started again in my early 40s and on them now.
some comments about this article:
1) i fsking HATE when people self-diagnose and then trumpet to the world that they're almost certain they have ADHD. if you think you've got it, go find a clinical psychologist and get tested.
2) he's done a great job of regimenting his life. this is really, really important for me to do and helps a lot (until something distracts me, like a squirrel)
3) removing distractions is SUPER important. i was a musician for large portions of my life, and i can't listen to anything when i'm working.
4) meds can help, a lot. they help me. a lot. i use them daily, but take 'breaks' when i'm sick, on vacation, etc. i'm one of the 'usual' people that doesn't have side effects and i definitely don't get a 'high' feeling.
anyways, i liked the article, and he has some really great points and routines. but i still wish he'd gotten tested before posting. :)
some comments about this article:
1) i fsking HATE when people self-diagnose and then trumpet to the world that they're almost certain they have ADHD. if you think you've got it, go find a clinical psychologist and get tested.
2) he's done a great job of regimenting his life. this is really, really important for me to do and helps a lot (until something distracts me, like a squirrel)
3) removing distractions is SUPER important. i was a musician for large portions of my life, and i can't listen to anything when i'm working.
4) meds can help, a lot. they help me. a lot. i use them daily, but take 'breaks' when i'm sick, on vacation, etc. i'm one of the 'usual' people that doesn't have side effects and i definitely don't get a 'high' feeling.
anyways, i liked the article, and he has some really great points and routines. but i still wish he'd gotten tested before posting. :)
Yeah, I regimented my life more than basically anyone. Quit all hobbies, prevented me from doing anything for days. Even with all of that I couldn't focus on doing homework, instead I just lied down in my bed and stared at the ceiling for hours on end. Or sat in a chair and stared at the wall. I knew I should do the world, and I knew that the only way to do the work was to prevent me from doing everything else in the world, yet even when the work was the only thing I could do I still often didn't do it.
Nothing worked until I got medication. The funny thing is that I lived undiagnosed like that until I was 30. Imagine if ADHD was better understood when I was a kid...
Nothing worked until I got medication. The funny thing is that I lived undiagnosed like that until I was 30. Imagine if ADHD was better understood when I was a kid...
I live in Northern New Mexico. There is virtually zero mental healthcare out here. As in, I've been on waiting lists for dozens and dozens of clinics/clinicians for more than a year, following up with all of them every few weeks. Money isn't even an issue here -- I'm willing to pay the $450/30 minutes out of pocket or whatever it costs to see someone. There just literally is not enough mental healthcare to go around. Virtually zero clinics are seeing new patients.
I've been lucky enough to be able to get treatment from my GP (who is actually a PA) for mental health conditions I've been diagnosed with previously in other states, and prescriptions for (admittedly lower stakes) meds that have worked reliably for me in the past. But she's not able to evaluate me for ADHD -- only refer me to clinics where I've already been on the waitlist for a year.
Anyway, some of us self-diagnose because it's literally the only fsking option. Not everywhere is the SF Bay Area where there are excellent free and low cost clinics on every other street corner and world class treatment options for those able to pay more.
I've been lucky enough to be able to get treatment from my GP (who is actually a PA) for mental health conditions I've been diagnosed with previously in other states, and prescriptions for (admittedly lower stakes) meds that have worked reliably for me in the past. But she's not able to evaluate me for ADHD -- only refer me to clinics where I've already been on the waitlist for a year.
Anyway, some of us self-diagnose because it's literally the only fsking option. Not everywhere is the SF Bay Area where there are excellent free and low cost clinics on every other street corner and world class treatment options for those able to pay more.
I am trying to manage my ADHD sympthoms naturally. I don't believe that I should take stimulants until I have my lifestyle habits in order.
I found that sleep quality is the number one metric that determines the level of ADHD sympthoms I experience. I do yin yoga before sleep every day, and have fully quit caffeine. I also make sure to not eat at least 4 hours before bed and to not look at any screens 1 hour before my bedtime. Sleep is absolutely my number 1 priority in life.
Starting my day with some heart-rate elevating exercise is the second most helpful habit. I really got into power yoga during lockdown, I highly recommend it.
Having elevated blood ketones, either through fasting or eating low carb, are the third most helpful tool. My level of focus is just incredible when my body has switched to fats as the main fuel source.
My ADHD is quite manageable this way. I feel like having to work for mental clarity is better for me than relying on amphetamines.
I found that sleep quality is the number one metric that determines the level of ADHD sympthoms I experience. I do yin yoga before sleep every day, and have fully quit caffeine. I also make sure to not eat at least 4 hours before bed and to not look at any screens 1 hour before my bedtime. Sleep is absolutely my number 1 priority in life.
Starting my day with some heart-rate elevating exercise is the second most helpful habit. I really got into power yoga during lockdown, I highly recommend it.
Having elevated blood ketones, either through fasting or eating low carb, are the third most helpful tool. My level of focus is just incredible when my body has switched to fats as the main fuel source.
My ADHD is quite manageable this way. I feel like having to work for mental clarity is better for me than relying on amphetamines.
I think I have mild ADHD, but I don't need to take meds if I have these life habits that greatly helped me.
* sleep as you mentioned
* omega 3 and multivitamins (including vitamin D)
* exercise in the morning if possible then on the evening if not possible.
* no strong lunches ( eat something that energizes you but for a long time, lately I have been eating just cooked beans and the energy I get from that is very stable and durable, beans is so cheap and so nutritious ) this avoid lethargy feelings after lunch
* not too much coffee not too less, Coffee does help but too much, it actually increases the chatter in my brain.
* One of the latest things I applied is pomodoro and daily TODO, this I feel solved for all my adhd problems. Keeping focus is an habilitie that you can train, forcing to be focus for 25 minutes is a good enough time. I get more work done and get less at the end of the day.
* sleep as you mentioned
* omega 3 and multivitamins (including vitamin D)
* exercise in the morning if possible then on the evening if not possible.
* no strong lunches ( eat something that energizes you but for a long time, lately I have been eating just cooked beans and the energy I get from that is very stable and durable, beans is so cheap and so nutritious ) this avoid lethargy feelings after lunch
* not too much coffee not too less, Coffee does help but too much, it actually increases the chatter in my brain.
* One of the latest things I applied is pomodoro and daily TODO, this I feel solved for all my adhd problems. Keeping focus is an habilitie that you can train, forcing to be focus for 25 minutes is a good enough time. I get more work done and get less at the end of the day.
Am I the only one who feels a bit discredited when someone blames their ADHD for their shortcomings?
To me, all the ADHD symptoms listed in this article sounds like nothing more but normal human traits.
Also, author hasn't been diagnosed with ADHD, and the tips can be helpful to everyone.
To me, all the ADHD symptoms listed in this article sounds like nothing more but normal human traits.
Also, author hasn't been diagnosed with ADHD, and the tips can be helpful to everyone.
You're not the only one that feels this way. Just like you're not the only one that probably feels like alcoholics should just learn to handle their liquor, bulimics should accept their body image, people with cardiovascular issues should just exercise more, stutterers should just stop stuttering, asthmatics should just breath better, etc. What you have is a lack of empathy and understanding for people that genuinely suffer from a condition that you don't suffer from, and yes lots of people are in the same boat as you.
I don’t think this is a fair characterization of what he was saying. Many of people that post these stories are self diagnosed, which should give you pause. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren’t. No one — including the poster — knows. If they do not actually ADHD, then they are using this self diagnosis as excuse. You see the same thing with people declaring that they’re “on the spectrum”, when called out for bad behavior. As one diagnosed autistic friend put it, “They’re not autistic. They’re just an asshole.”
As far as I can tell, empathy goes both ways, and I think it's a bit unfair of you to call me unempathetic for simply expressing how I'm feeling.
I also don't think the examples you give are great analogues to the situation (although highly related) as I've not meet a lot of people using alcoholism, bulimia and asthma as a way to avoid everyday tasks in contrast to ADHD.
I also don't think the examples you give are great analogues to the situation (although highly related) as I've not meet a lot of people using alcoholism, bulimia and asthma as a way to avoid everyday tasks in contrast to ADHD.
I think you've misunderstood, which is natural considering feedback like this can be easily perceived as an attack, but GP's response was actually well-worded. You have a lack of empathy for the conditions these people have. That doesn't mean you are unempathetic. It means your behaviour to these people exhibits a lack of empathy for their condition. That is objectively true.
And it's worthwhile to remember, sometimes people have debilitating conditions that make them worthless for tasks. It is sad that some people are paraplegic. Those people cannot be wildfire firefighters. It's not an excuse or anything. I would not want to pay that person to be a wildfire firefighter because they cannot fight wildfires. If I were paying someone to be a wildfire firefighter, and then they lost all their limbs, I cannot indefinitely employ them as a wildfire firefighter anymore. If they were to say "It's not my fault I don't have limbs", I'd have to say "No, it isn't, but also, you can't fight fires. So I'll fulfill my responsibilities to you, but I can't employ you in this capacity any more".
If someone has ADHD and they can't do a job, then they can't do the job. Any general requirements you have as an employer are to make "reasonable accommodations", not to sit there as your employee sits there on their fourth year of doing nothing because they "have ADHD".
And it's worthwhile to remember, sometimes people have debilitating conditions that make them worthless for tasks. It is sad that some people are paraplegic. Those people cannot be wildfire firefighters. It's not an excuse or anything. I would not want to pay that person to be a wildfire firefighter because they cannot fight wildfires. If I were paying someone to be a wildfire firefighter, and then they lost all their limbs, I cannot indefinitely employ them as a wildfire firefighter anymore. If they were to say "It's not my fault I don't have limbs", I'd have to say "No, it isn't, but also, you can't fight fires. So I'll fulfill my responsibilities to you, but I can't employ you in this capacity any more".
If someone has ADHD and they can't do a job, then they can't do the job. Any general requirements you have as an employer are to make "reasonable accommodations", not to sit there as your employee sits there on their fourth year of doing nothing because they "have ADHD".
Yup, thanks for pointing that out. I did interpret it as "you are an unempathetic person" while that wasn't the case.
I can't help but be reminded of the classic Mitch Hedberg bit: "Alcoholism is the only disease you can get yelled at for having"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28ErxjBY4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28ErxjBY4o
You should just produce more insulin! You should just not get cancer! Deaf? Just listen harder!
I had the opposite experience -- for a very, very long time I assumed that a bunch of harmful, chronic behaviors were just a result of some unspecified personal or moral failing on my part. I would beat myself up about it and tell myself to "do better," without a path forward for how to do that.
2 years ago a friend who was diagnosed with ADHD started describing some of her symptoms and I realized it sounded exactly like what I experience. I started seeking treatment a few months ago (currently therapy, and undergoing screening for medication), and just reading through the list of symptoms while I was filling out a questionnaire recently was like suddenly being able to see color for the first time.
Knowing that what I experience is not just "normal human traits" and is in fact an identifiable disorder with concrete causes and solutions has totally reoriented how I think about some issues I face and has enabled me to actually address them in a way that wasn't possible before.
2 years ago a friend who was diagnosed with ADHD started describing some of her symptoms and I realized it sounded exactly like what I experience. I started seeking treatment a few months ago (currently therapy, and undergoing screening for medication), and just reading through the list of symptoms while I was filling out a questionnaire recently was like suddenly being able to see color for the first time.
Knowing that what I experience is not just "normal human traits" and is in fact an identifiable disorder with concrete causes and solutions has totally reoriented how I think about some issues I face and has enabled me to actually address them in a way that wasn't possible before.
i don,t think it is either, but an environment way more demanding than what we previously lived in trying to squeeze every last drop of productivity out of ,,the stock,, and calling anyone who falls short disordered.
I think that our culture definitely demands more productivity out of people than is reasonable, but that's not really the issue I'm referring to. I'm referring to things like not being able to take my focus away from, for example, reading social media posts, in order to make an appointment or social event on time. Not being able to correctly conceptualize how long it will take me to get ready, leave my house and travel to where I need to be, no matter how many times I've done it. Doing this so often that it hurts friends, family, and work.
I think there is an argument that western medicine sometimes pathologizes people having normal responses to the insane demands of our society and economy. In my case, I have been struggling with my healthcare provider's bureaucracy to get a diagnosis because I really, really need help.
I think there is an argument that western medicine sometimes pathologizes people having normal responses to the insane demands of our society and economy. In my case, I have been struggling with my healthcare provider's bureaucracy to get a diagnosis because I really, really need help.
> I'm referring to things like not being able to take my focus away from, for example, reading social media posts, in order to make an appointment or social event on time. Not being able to correctly conceptualize how long it will take me to get ready, leave my house and travel to where I need to be, no matter how many times I've done it. Doing this so often that it hurts friends, family, and work.
I'm the same way, and once I stopped trying to "fix" this "disorder", I've become not only much happier, but also more productive. Just one anecdatapoint.
Social media, I use it carefully. I keep asking myself, "am I learning something useful from this?"
I'm the same way, and once I stopped trying to "fix" this "disorder", I've become not only much happier, but also more productive. Just one anecdatapoint.
Social media, I use it carefully. I keep asking myself, "am I learning something useful from this?"
Is it reasonable to expect an individual to live by the societal clock?
[deleted]
I have been diagnosed with ADHD and to me it really has been great getting treatment. I think it's unfair to blame everything on ADHD and not take responsibility for anything but for me where I think it's different from someone who doesn't have it is that I was unable to pay attention during lectures for example. Like I really wanted to and the information was still interesting but I still couldn't get myself to pay attention and that caused a lot of anxiety and severely effected my self esteem since I was blaming myself and saying "well you just didn't try hard enough" and things like that. Like most things, ADHD is a spectrum so there is likely a lot of it that goes undiagnosed. A lot of the symptoms are pretty normal human traits but I think how much those traits are present is the big thing.
A doctor I know explained (when treating adults) that not only do they look at symptoms, they look at how the symptoms have affected life outcomes. Being unfocused or late to work sometimes barely scrapes the surface in describing what untreated ADHD can lead to over time.
> the tips can be helpful to everyone
https://medium.com/@mosaicofminds/the-curb-cut-effect-how-ma...
https://medium.com/@mosaicofminds/the-curb-cut-effect-how-ma...
That was an interesting read. Thanks!
They are human traits when they are relatively easy to overcome, not easy at all with ADHD.
Frequency and severity of those symptoms are considered for the diagnosis. Everyone shows symptoms of depression sometimes; not everyone has depression.
I was diagnosed with ADHD around age 12 in early school. For about 10 years, I was on a lot of stimulant medication; Vyvanse, Adderall, Concerta, and tried many others. Only in the last couple years did I stop entirely. You get used to the sleep impairment after a while. It affected my ability to socialize. I was making excuses for my behavior and largely, I could summarize it as "feeling like a zombie, entirely reliant on a pill." My opinion on it now is that it can help you, but now I prefer to be in my default mode, unencumbered by meds.
The effects of stimulants is an upside down parabola. Too much and you actually get worse. However they always make it easier to sit with stuff like homework, so it makes parenting easier even when their kid don't need it and the medication actually hurts the kid. Therefore I think it is wrong to medicate a kid before they are mature enough to make their own decisions about medication.
I do know that medication helped me a lot, I got diagnosed as an adult though. I don't think I would have liked it if I was diagnosed as a kid and got pills with ever increasing dosage forced on me just so I would stay quiet in class.
I do know that medication helped me a lot, I got diagnosed as an adult though. I don't think I would have liked it if I was diagnosed as a kid and got pills with ever increasing dosage forced on me just so I would stay quiet in class.
For others new to this subject on HN, go to Algolia and search for ADHD.
Here's a question I posed a while back, with some helpful responses. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21716306
Also, it's worth diving into the literature on a number of conditions if you're unsure or curious. For me, I only started to think something was really different when I compared my interests and how obsessively I'd learn about them, with the friends I'd be talking with over coffee. There was something seemingly absurd about how much I'd think about an idea or subject, compared to the most I was able to get someone talking about anything they were compelled by. Usually this had to do with systems or cities or the like, and so at first I was leaning more towards high level autism. It's hard to analyze yourself from the outside, so a practitioner who can ask hopefully specific questions about your family and history is very helpful.
Otherwise, if you've found something that works for you, then it probably doesn't matter what your label is, just roll with it.
Lastly, I do appreciate the sharing of personal experience. I'm a SE who has been out of work for 7 months and doesn't have a damn clue how to succeed or how to keep pushing. Have lost 6 jobs over 8 years for varying reasons, and it's a tough life for someone with ADHD symptoms. It's extremely easy to burnout, because to be motivated means to be very motivated to a fault, among other reasons. Then when you do burnout, you realize that nobody actually gives a shit about the work you do, and you sink to the bottom when you get fired.
Here's a question I posed a while back, with some helpful responses. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21716306
Also, it's worth diving into the literature on a number of conditions if you're unsure or curious. For me, I only started to think something was really different when I compared my interests and how obsessively I'd learn about them, with the friends I'd be talking with over coffee. There was something seemingly absurd about how much I'd think about an idea or subject, compared to the most I was able to get someone talking about anything they were compelled by. Usually this had to do with systems or cities or the like, and so at first I was leaning more towards high level autism. It's hard to analyze yourself from the outside, so a practitioner who can ask hopefully specific questions about your family and history is very helpful.
Otherwise, if you've found something that works for you, then it probably doesn't matter what your label is, just roll with it.
Lastly, I do appreciate the sharing of personal experience. I'm a SE who has been out of work for 7 months and doesn't have a damn clue how to succeed or how to keep pushing. Have lost 6 jobs over 8 years for varying reasons, and it's a tough life for someone with ADHD symptoms. It's extremely easy to burnout, because to be motivated means to be very motivated to a fault, among other reasons. Then when you do burnout, you realize that nobody actually gives a shit about the work you do, and you sink to the bottom when you get fired.
I feel so much less alone from reading your shared experience. Thank you.
My fear is developing alzheimers or parkinsons disease messing with these dopamine receptors for decades, are we screwing ourselves over long term? I fear developing early onset dementia too. I saw there was a study that linked neurodegenerative disease to long term dopamine stimulants.
Can anyone break down the neuroscience for me and any meta-analyses studies on ADHD amph stims effect on early onset neurodegenerative disease?
Can anyone break down the neuroscience for me and any meta-analyses studies on ADHD amph stims effect on early onset neurodegenerative disease?
Got diagnosed earlier in lockdown and started meds after many years of struggling through school and having my coping mechanisms barely being enough to keep things together at work/home. Once lockdown hit all my built-up coping mechanisms broke down and triggered a depression spiral.
I think what finally got me to do the thing was realizing how often I was now not able to parse my partner speaking directly to me even when I was 100% listening, no distracting noises, interested in what they had to say, etc. At the worst it was more than once a day for at least a minute or two. I could see their mouth moving and recognize that they were making words but was unable to understand a word of it no matter how hard I tried.
Vyvanse has been helpful. It's made it possible to put the work in and build routines to get stuff done. It's not a magic bullet but it brings me much closer to the starting line. I started struggling more with insomnia since starting it but that's a trade I'm willing to make to be able to function at all.
I think what finally got me to do the thing was realizing how often I was now not able to parse my partner speaking directly to me even when I was 100% listening, no distracting noises, interested in what they had to say, etc. At the worst it was more than once a day for at least a minute or two. I could see their mouth moving and recognize that they were making words but was unable to understand a word of it no matter how hard I tried.
Vyvanse has been helpful. It's made it possible to put the work in and build routines to get stuff done. It's not a magic bullet but it brings me much closer to the starting line. I started struggling more with insomnia since starting it but that's a trade I'm willing to make to be able to function at all.
> Easily distracted by noise (hypersensitive to external sounds like birds, cars, construction, etc.)
I suffer from misophonia in a way that is similar to this. There are certain high, mid-high sounds that cause a painfully disorienting "touch" sensation for me, along with the usual suspects like chewing. I hear sonic animal repellents that most people out of their teen years don't.
> Noise cancellation headphones to eliminate distracting sounds
I was skeptical about these in the past. I received a pair as a Christmas present and they've been literally life-changing, especially in COVID World with the kids at home. They're Bose and probably cost more than I would spend on myself, but they are priceless to me now.
I suffer from misophonia in a way that is similar to this. There are certain high, mid-high sounds that cause a painfully disorienting "touch" sensation for me, along with the usual suspects like chewing. I hear sonic animal repellents that most people out of their teen years don't.
> Noise cancellation headphones to eliminate distracting sounds
I was skeptical about these in the past. I received a pair as a Christmas present and they've been literally life-changing, especially in COVID World with the kids at home. They're Bose and probably cost more than I would spend on myself, but they are priceless to me now.
I was diagnosed in my late thirties, two years ago. The diagnosis rocked my world.
On the one hand, I struggle with the diagnosis. Everything I read about ADHD felt like a horoscope. To me, it seems everyone will recognize at least parts of the symptoms. People often respond by saying "Oh yeah, I got that too". I have a firm belief everyone is responsible for their actions and, ADHD seems like an excuse. And I don't want to have excuses.
On the other hand, I have taken Ritalin -I stopped when we COVID forced us to work from home- and it helped. A cloud was lifted. Also, I don't longer try to fight and apologize for all the little sounds that make me go bananas.
On the one hand, I struggle with the diagnosis. Everything I read about ADHD felt like a horoscope. To me, it seems everyone will recognize at least parts of the symptoms. People often respond by saying "Oh yeah, I got that too". I have a firm belief everyone is responsible for their actions and, ADHD seems like an excuse. And I don't want to have excuses.
On the other hand, I have taken Ritalin -I stopped when we COVID forced us to work from home- and it helped. A cloud was lifted. Also, I don't longer try to fight and apologize for all the little sounds that make me go bananas.
ADHD, OCD, ADD etc are not things you can have - these are disorders, a collection of symptoms, diagnosed by consensus (no real objective testing that can validate that a patient has this disorder, its a questionnaire).
I can say that having a purple hair and sleeping less then 6 hours a night is a Purple Hair Sleeping Disorder (PHSD).
Bottom line is, we have no real idea what are the actual physical and mental causes - what is the REAL illness, the pathological anomalies - that ADHD is the symptom of, and accepting ADHD as a THING means we are not digging deeper to find the real cause.
And as a side note - the DSM (which defines ADHD), once defined being gay as a disorder (and hence treatable).
I can say that having a purple hair and sleeping less then 6 hours a night is a Purple Hair Sleeping Disorder (PHSD).
Bottom line is, we have no real idea what are the actual physical and mental causes - what is the REAL illness, the pathological anomalies - that ADHD is the symptom of, and accepting ADHD as a THING means we are not digging deeper to find the real cause.
And as a side note - the DSM (which defines ADHD), once defined being gay as a disorder (and hence treatable).
How does "Accepting ADHD as a thing" mean we're not digging deeper? Would it help if the collection of symptoms were totally disregarded? Since Cancer was discovered, has investment declined? How can you begin to ask if there's nothing to ask questions about?
Side note: Most governments and most people didn't look too highly upon homosexuality, and we don't know everything about it, but things have changed and we haven't invalidated everything that said something different than we currently believe.
Side note: Most governments and most people didn't look too highly upon homosexuality, and we don't know everything about it, but things have changed and we haven't invalidated everything that said something different than we currently believe.
Accepting ADHD as a thing, immediately means accepting all the so-called treatments for it (Concerta, Ritalin etc), which immediately creates a (huge) market, with market forces that will do everything possible to maintain the market alive and kicking - hence standing in the way of digging deeper.
Cancer is diagnosed in a very methodological and strict way, and the fact that we discovered it doesn't mean we discovered the cure for it (sadly, curing cancer is very hard).
I have no problem with ADHD being a defined disorder that we can ask questions about - as long as we understand that it is not a thing, cannot be objectively diagnosed (and therefore treatments are as vague as the diagnosis), and people cannot have it (the same way we have a flu or COVID-19).
About homosexuality - it was just an example of how the psychiatric bible - i.e., the DSM - can get things horribly wrong and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt.
Cancer is diagnosed in a very methodological and strict way, and the fact that we discovered it doesn't mean we discovered the cure for it (sadly, curing cancer is very hard).
I have no problem with ADHD being a defined disorder that we can ask questions about - as long as we understand that it is not a thing, cannot be objectively diagnosed (and therefore treatments are as vague as the diagnosis), and people cannot have it (the same way we have a flu or COVID-19).
About homosexuality - it was just an example of how the psychiatric bible - i.e., the DSM - can get things horribly wrong and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt.
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What about pomodoro technique. I have mild adhd and I have seen great results to just follow the rule of the pomodoro ( focus for 25 minutes and a daily TODO list) super simple but I have seen great results. It has improved my work and happiness. When I was a child/adult under education system I used these medications and they had a great effect I could concentrate on something and be interested for longer times, I passed from average to one of the best in class. I wonder if Id used the pomodoro technique instead I would had felt the same, could this be solved with just discipline.
I've tried it, but don't understand what benefit it's supposed to have.
With all these comments about stimulants, I think it's important to note that 25-50% of people with ADHD also have a sleep disorder (often not diagnosed). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6299464/
I have ADHD and have found that being on a strict sleep schedule and really making good sleep a focal point has helped maybe more than taking a stimulant
I have ADHD and have found that being on a strict sleep schedule and really making good sleep a focal point has helped maybe more than taking a stimulant
Somewhat unrelated - I tried both adderall and ritalin. While these certainly help with my attention/focus issues, I often get a weird side-effect - it makes me sleepy. My doc is completely puzzled by it. Nor I see much of such mentions in internet. I wonder if any1 else here had such effect from stimulants? (it is not lack of sleep - I get 7+ hours at night and occasional hour during the day).
Yes. Both coffee and amphetamines actually help me sleep.
lol. I find it interesting that ADHD makes for such a vogue discussion. The first paragraph describes me since I could remember. Call it what you want tho, it is what it is, and most of the world doesn’t care what you cannot focus on.
Just because other people have easy time doing boring work tho, why do we call this “attention deficit?” Why not call it “boring works sucks, and distractions are awful,” or whatever.
The best most interesting people I know all (probably) have adhd. It’s kind of a good thing, or the world would be very boring.
That’s all. Just a thought.
ps. As I am reading other comments, many focus on how other people have perceived them as better/easier after medication. But my question is, why do you care? I mean, 9 people will think you are nuts. So, hang out with the one that doesn’t? Seem better than taking meds for something that is “normal,” for a small percentage of the population. Why not give meds to the other people? :p
Just because other people have easy time doing boring work tho, why do we call this “attention deficit?” Why not call it “boring works sucks, and distractions are awful,” or whatever.
The best most interesting people I know all (probably) have adhd. It’s kind of a good thing, or the world would be very boring.
That’s all. Just a thought.
ps. As I am reading other comments, many focus on how other people have perceived them as better/easier after medication. But my question is, why do you care? I mean, 9 people will think you are nuts. So, hang out with the one that doesn’t? Seem better than taking meds for something that is “normal,” for a small percentage of the population. Why not give meds to the other people? :p
> As I am reading other comments, many focus on how other people have perceived them as better/easier after medication.
People don't give me money unless they perceive me as valuable. That is pretty important for me. Also I care about delivering on my personal projects for my own sake. Other than those two I don't care what others think.
People don't give me money unless they perceive me as valuable. That is pretty important for me. Also I care about delivering on my personal projects for my own sake. Other than those two I don't care what others think.
Correct. It sounds like “being able to persist at mundane tasks” is perceived as valuable, and people who don’t, try to accommodate that illusion. While your superpower is actually “easily ignores bulls8t”, and it should be celebrated! Just an opinion...
I'm pretty sure I have ADHD and maybe some light autistic traits - but I fall more into this viewpoint https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvqx9DfG9lU (ADHD superpower - under the sea song parody)
In case you didn't know there are some startups offering free online diagnosis online (during COVID, online diagnosis is possible). I have tried https://donefirst.com and got an appointment next day.
OK, glad I'm not alone in this: I completely shut off when asked to do things in which I find no interest. This especially becomes a problem during interviews. If the problem isn't appealing, that's it!
Not a fan of the fact that https://www.projectmanager.com changed the linked Blog post to a purely sales funnel page.... Not classy.
Feels like its easy to have a false positive diagnoses for amphetamines, particularly in high stress & productivity roles such as tech.
stimulants are prevalent in all high-paying technical/knowledge fields in the US. tech, finance, and medicine being the big 3. i have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support this, but i'd bet that more than 3/4s of students who have gone through a medical school program in the US have taken adderall at least once during it
i'm tempted to argue that ease of access to amphetamines plays a huge part in the US continuing to maintain a thriving tech industry. along with being able to siphon the best and brightest from every other country that can't match US comps, of course
i'm tempted to argue that ease of access to amphetamines plays a huge part in the US continuing to maintain a thriving tech industry. along with being able to siphon the best and brightest from every other country that can't match US comps, of course
Definitely, but that doesn't change the fact that some really need the medication and preventing them from receiving it ruins lives.
A word of caution: The pop-culture definition of ADHD has started to drift quite far from the original diagnosis.
Whenever you read someone's personal description of ADHD, it helps to remember that many of the traits they describe are common to everyone, ADHD or not. The distinction lies in the severity of the symptoms, and how resistant those symptoms are to more typical (non-medication) interventions.
The bigger problem is that some of these overly generic descriptions of ADHD are so broad that you'd be hard pressed to find any young person in 2021 who doesn't fit the description.
For example, consider what the inverse of this person's list of bullet points would look like:
- Very, very easy time focusing on things they don't like or don't want to do
- Easy time reading physical books
- Hard to distract with construction noises
- Enjoys sitting still for extended periods of time
- Easily gets back to a flow state after being interrupted
Taken to extremes, overly generic descriptions of ADHD tend to paint unrealistic pictures of what a non-ADHD person looks like. When was the last time you met any young person who is unaffected by distractions, interruptions, sitting still for long periods of time, and has no issues focusing on things they don't like?
The list of recommended techniques provided by the author is excellent. Everyone could benefit from it, frankly. ADHD people especially.
Newly diagnosed (or self-diagnosed) ADHD patients often make the mistake of letting their diagnosis become a convenient excuse. They might start speaking about their ADHD as if it's a separate entity, holding their true self back (For example "It's not my fault I have ADHD" or "If it wasn't for my ADHD, I would be more successful"). While this is short-term satisfying, it can be extremely counterproductive. If anything, an ADHD diagnosis means you need to put more effort into building routines, improving your self-discipline, creating focus-conducive environments, and other healthy habits that everyone benefits from, ADHD or otherwise.
If you find yourself identifying with some of the points in this article, bookmark the article and spend some time implementation the recommended bullet points. If you find the issues are interfering with your life to an unbearable degree, consider engaging with a professional psychiatrist for a conversation on ADHD. You don't want someone who will simply prescribe stimulants and send you on your way. You want someone who will create a long-term plan. Medication can help, but it's not as straightforward as it sounds. Worse yet, some people mistake medication for a free pass around building self-discipline, which fails when tolerance develops (and it will). Healthy habits and self-discipline last a lifetime, so it's worth investing in building those up front.
Whenever you read someone's personal description of ADHD, it helps to remember that many of the traits they describe are common to everyone, ADHD or not. The distinction lies in the severity of the symptoms, and how resistant those symptoms are to more typical (non-medication) interventions.
The bigger problem is that some of these overly generic descriptions of ADHD are so broad that you'd be hard pressed to find any young person in 2021 who doesn't fit the description.
For example, consider what the inverse of this person's list of bullet points would look like:
- Very, very easy time focusing on things they don't like or don't want to do
- Easy time reading physical books
- Hard to distract with construction noises
- Enjoys sitting still for extended periods of time
- Easily gets back to a flow state after being interrupted
Taken to extremes, overly generic descriptions of ADHD tend to paint unrealistic pictures of what a non-ADHD person looks like. When was the last time you met any young person who is unaffected by distractions, interruptions, sitting still for long periods of time, and has no issues focusing on things they don't like?
The list of recommended techniques provided by the author is excellent. Everyone could benefit from it, frankly. ADHD people especially.
Newly diagnosed (or self-diagnosed) ADHD patients often make the mistake of letting their diagnosis become a convenient excuse. They might start speaking about their ADHD as if it's a separate entity, holding their true self back (For example "It's not my fault I have ADHD" or "If it wasn't for my ADHD, I would be more successful"). While this is short-term satisfying, it can be extremely counterproductive. If anything, an ADHD diagnosis means you need to put more effort into building routines, improving your self-discipline, creating focus-conducive environments, and other healthy habits that everyone benefits from, ADHD or otherwise.
If you find yourself identifying with some of the points in this article, bookmark the article and spend some time implementation the recommended bullet points. If you find the issues are interfering with your life to an unbearable degree, consider engaging with a professional psychiatrist for a conversation on ADHD. You don't want someone who will simply prescribe stimulants and send you on your way. You want someone who will create a long-term plan. Medication can help, but it's not as straightforward as it sounds. Worse yet, some people mistake medication for a free pass around building self-discipline, which fails when tolerance develops (and it will). Healthy habits and self-discipline last a lifetime, so it's worth investing in building those up front.
I'd argue that if you can hold an office job for a year without getting fired then you don't have ADHD, or at least it is a very mild version. There are so many small things you need to do in an office hob that are super hard to do with ADHD, there is no way you can do a significant fraction of them with serious ADHD. It isn't about performing your job function which can be fun, but doing all the tiny bits you need to do just to function in an office, like answering emails, updating issue trackers, filling out forms, sitting still and look like you "work" etc. Many jobs will not fire you for being slow, but very few jobs will keep you around if you can't even pretend to do the work.
Most likely you will not even get the job though, since you will get stuck trying to apply for jobs, or maybe even earlier you will get stuck trying to do boring assignments in college and therefore wont even graduate.
Most likely you will not even get the job though, since you will get stuck trying to apply for jobs, or maybe even earlier you will get stuck trying to do boring assignments in college and therefore wont even graduate.
Depends on the person. When I was undiagnosed, I got away with it for years because under extreme deadline pressure for my projects I'd sometimes manage to pull it off really, really well. And, to my shame, I got pretty good at bullshitting my way through progress meetings.
The rest of the time, I was a right mess. Changed entire careers twice because I figured what I was doing just wasn't my thing. Turns out it was more fundamental than that, and I'm doing better now medicated.
I know others afflicted with ADHD who had similar experiences of flying just under the radar of being fired, before they found out what was really going on.
The rest of the time, I was a right mess. Changed entire careers twice because I figured what I was doing just wasn't my thing. Turns out it was more fundamental than that, and I'm doing better now medicated.
I know others afflicted with ADHD who had similar experiences of flying just under the radar of being fired, before they found out what was really going on.
what is in "What this looks/feels like" is really ADHD?
what kind of test do doctor do for ADHD?
In case it's helpful for anyone else who, broadly speaking, has trouble with attention or learning though isn't convinced its ADHD: get your eyes checked.
"Due to similar symptoms, an undetected visual dysfunction can be misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD, dyslexia or a reading disability. A comprehensive eye exam, which rules out a binocular vision dysfunction, is critical to determining if vision is a contributing factor."
See: http://walesby3d.com/vision-learning/ and http://walesby3d.com/what-is-vision-therapy/
For years I had trouble concentrating and sticking with a task. It felt like my eyes were exhausted even after a few hours of simple computer work, so I was constantly getting up and looking away and taking breaks. This led to not even wanting to pay attention or focus on anything at all, especially on screen, because I knew I wouldn't be able to stick with it. It felt like my brain was mush.
Fast forward almost five years of twitching from one task to the next, it started to feel like my vision was getting worse. I wasn't having any luck getting my prescription right with the eye doctor I had been seeing, so I went to another doctor, then another, then another, until one doctor refused to write me a new prescription because she picked up on a slight muscle imbalance in one of my eyes, which was preventing my eyes from tracking and converging together.
She sent me to a pediatric vision specialist (they'll see adults) who primarily deal with muscular dysfunction in the eye—these folks quite literally changed my life.
Turns out I have all sorts of muscular issues with one of my eyes, which causes both eyes to work overtime trying to coordinate and focus together. This led to tired eyes, and a tired, sleepy brain. Long story short, it took a few months to get the prescription just right, along with some initial vision therapy, but once I got used to the new glasses, my ability to focus returned almost overnight. Everything felt so much calmer—reading, writing, thinking, driving, speaking.
These days, after a handful of changes to my prescription over the years, I've reached a dead-end with lens corrections, so surgery is the only option left if things get worse. But so far, the glasses with appropriate corrections have been absolutely incredible.
Anyway, I just wanted to post this in case it's helpful to someone who is lurking with tired eyes and a fractured attention span. You want an optometrist with F.C.O.V.D after their name, someone who specializes in binocular vision and muscular dysfunction.
"Due to similar symptoms, an undetected visual dysfunction can be misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD, dyslexia or a reading disability. A comprehensive eye exam, which rules out a binocular vision dysfunction, is critical to determining if vision is a contributing factor."
See: http://walesby3d.com/vision-learning/ and http://walesby3d.com/what-is-vision-therapy/
For years I had trouble concentrating and sticking with a task. It felt like my eyes were exhausted even after a few hours of simple computer work, so I was constantly getting up and looking away and taking breaks. This led to not even wanting to pay attention or focus on anything at all, especially on screen, because I knew I wouldn't be able to stick with it. It felt like my brain was mush.
Fast forward almost five years of twitching from one task to the next, it started to feel like my vision was getting worse. I wasn't having any luck getting my prescription right with the eye doctor I had been seeing, so I went to another doctor, then another, then another, until one doctor refused to write me a new prescription because she picked up on a slight muscle imbalance in one of my eyes, which was preventing my eyes from tracking and converging together.
She sent me to a pediatric vision specialist (they'll see adults) who primarily deal with muscular dysfunction in the eye—these folks quite literally changed my life.
Turns out I have all sorts of muscular issues with one of my eyes, which causes both eyes to work overtime trying to coordinate and focus together. This led to tired eyes, and a tired, sleepy brain. Long story short, it took a few months to get the prescription just right, along with some initial vision therapy, but once I got used to the new glasses, my ability to focus returned almost overnight. Everything felt so much calmer—reading, writing, thinking, driving, speaking.
These days, after a handful of changes to my prescription over the years, I've reached a dead-end with lens corrections, so surgery is the only option left if things get worse. But so far, the glasses with appropriate corrections have been absolutely incredible.
Anyway, I just wanted to post this in case it's helpful to someone who is lurking with tired eyes and a fractured attention span. You want an optometrist with F.C.O.V.D after their name, someone who specializes in binocular vision and muscular dysfunction.
> "Due to similar symptoms, an undetected visual dysfunction can be misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD, dyslexia or a reading disability. A comprehensive eye exam, which rules out a binocular vision dysfunction, is critical to determining if vision is a contributing factor."
Does a standard eye exam cover that? An optometrist recently told me that my eyes are "boring" and my mild prescription hasn't changed in years. So I've been trying to address my tired eyes with the basics: "20-20-20" (every 20 minutes, look at something at least 20 feet away for 20 seconds), actually wearing my glasses, drinking enough water, exercise, stress reduction, and getting enough sleep. If I continue to have trouble, should I ask for some more comprehensive exam?
> Anyway, I just wanted to post this in case it's helpful to someone who is lurking with tired eyes and a fractured attention span.
I suspect there are a lot of such folks, but the obvious suspect is the pandemic. Among other things, it often means fewer unplanned vision breaks and generally worse self-care.
> You want an optometrist with F.C.O.V.D after their name, someone who specializes in binocular vision and muscular dysfunction.
To rephrase my initial question more precisely: do I need to get the person who does the exam to have that qualification, or is that just who I'd go to after seeing something is wrong on a standard exam with any optometrist?
Does a standard eye exam cover that? An optometrist recently told me that my eyes are "boring" and my mild prescription hasn't changed in years. So I've been trying to address my tired eyes with the basics: "20-20-20" (every 20 minutes, look at something at least 20 feet away for 20 seconds), actually wearing my glasses, drinking enough water, exercise, stress reduction, and getting enough sleep. If I continue to have trouble, should I ask for some more comprehensive exam?
> Anyway, I just wanted to post this in case it's helpful to someone who is lurking with tired eyes and a fractured attention span.
I suspect there are a lot of such folks, but the obvious suspect is the pandemic. Among other things, it often means fewer unplanned vision breaks and generally worse self-care.
> You want an optometrist with F.C.O.V.D after their name, someone who specializes in binocular vision and muscular dysfunction.
To rephrase my initial question more precisely: do I need to get the person who does the exam to have that qualification, or is that just who I'd go to after seeing something is wrong on a standard exam with any optometrist?
I'd suggest finding a doctor with the F.C.O.V.D qualification for the exam. In my experience, an exam focused on binocular vision issues is very different from standard eye exam. I had to do a few drawing exercises on paper while looking through a range of devices I had never seen before, along with all sorts of tests for eye tracking, visual-motor coordination, convergence, and perception. Hell, my imbalance was responsible for a cocked and crooked neck and funny left-leaning posture. Posture was never a point of discussion when seeing different optometrists throughout the years.
If it turns out that you don't have any muscular issues, they'd still be able to help with your standard prescription if you're trying to get it right!
If it turns out that you don't have any muscular issues, they'd still be able to help with your standard prescription if you're trying to get it right!
Thanks for the advice! I expect my problems will just go away with general self-care improvements, but I'll try that if not.
Hmm, is there any relation between this sort of problem and eyelid twitching ("blepharospasm")? WebMD doesn't seem to think so, but maybe you've heard differently.
Hmm, is there any relation between this sort of problem and eyelid twitching ("blepharospasm")? WebMD doesn't seem to think so, but maybe you've heard differently.
Ah, no idea about that one. I am not a specialist or a doctor!
Genuinely trying to understand ADHD here (I'm really open, have no aggressive intentions, ready to put empathy to use, might have ADHD or other issues myself, I still don't know. I am driven by scientific curiosity). A few questions:
- What are the symptoms? I read here that some argue that they cannot do menial tasks or get up from bed, others get up at 5am regularly or are exceptionally able to do chores. Some can't achieve anything in their life, losing one job after another, others are serial entrepreneurs and feel like having superpowers. I am confused by the broad and (apparent?) conflicting set of symptoms.
- How does the "evolution over time" of ADHD look like? What I mean is: is it a condition that "starts with you" since when you are born, or does it "begin" at some point, like a normal illness? Likewise, can it end? Can you heal from that? Can it be reduced? And in the "in between part", if you were to graph its intensity/presence, would draw a constant(ly high) line? Or are there periods of higher and lower intensity? If so, what is their frequency? And if you were to draw only the segments "controlled for other confounding factors", for example ignoring big impactful events like big successes, personal losses, breakups, particularly happy or particularly bad relationships (even long ones), periods of medication or drugs, turbulent hormonal teen years, periods with second jobs or complete lack of jobs, how would the graph change? I had up and down periods, mostly long downs (even years) and short noisy high frequency ups. Often I was able to identify the causes behind the intensity of my mood (identifying does not imply solving), and I wonder how this time series looks for everybody else, and if and how ADHD people's curves are different from the cluster of "normal" curves.
- What are the tests that are used to assess and quantify it?
- Any scientific study on the effect of various medication on people with ADHD and without? I'm particularly interested in the reported effects for "normal" people in control groups. The effects of some medicines that I often see described sound wonderful: stability, being able to focus, being able to do what is useful (chores, big projects), stopping train of thoughts, etc. Disregarding the fact that, much like with symptoms, it looks like the effects are wildly varying, overall they seem impressively useful, and I ask: are there reasons why anyone would not want improved focus, cognition, productivity and stability? Some of these drugs are indeed famous for being (ab)used by students or even workers, in some parts of the world, to push through stressful times. Why wouldn't and shouldn't everyone have access to those? And, related to this, how does one recognize that they may not be 100% genuine and objective with perceiving and describing their ADHD symptoms to a doctor, but maybe one is exaggerating something unconsciously just to get to those miraculous meds?
- How do you explain (or, better, do you have any paper that explain) the differences in the percentages of diagnosed cases throughout the world (thus, differences over space) and during the last decades (thus, differences time)? Is the incidence naturally different in different countries? Has it naturally changed over time? If so, was that due to a change in other causing factors? Or, more worryingly, did the way of diagnosing it change in time / is different across the world? If so, do you think (or have papers about) the current criteria for diagnosis are accurate and precise (identify the "true value" and with low variance) and uniform? Or is there still work to do? Maybe in 100 years they could have mutated into disgnoses for 10 different more specific disorders, that "our ancestors [we] thought it was just one thing", maybe the disorder won't exist anymore like hysteria evolved from the 1800 to today, or maybe they won't change that much.
- Same question as the above one, but on differences in treatment (over time and across countries). Any anecdotes on people being diagnosed in a rest-of-the-world (non-US) country? Was your experience similar to the ones you read about, from American fellows? Were your symptoms and treatment different? I am particularly interested in hearing more from the rest-of-the-world, being from a non-US country myself. It's hard to understand how much one is in a bubble of American experiences and anecdotes, when reading from the internet. For example, I never even heard in my country the word ADHD. My only experience is from reading about it on the English-speaking part of the Internet. Never heard stories of hyperactive kids taking medicines, or students or adults being prescribed stimulants to push through. I am sure such cases exist, but from my experience these things are just "not in the culture". For almost all the people I know from my country it would be unthinkable to even consider a hyperactive kid to be something to "medically treat". I'm not saying I come from a place where kids with problems are not treated, on the contrary, kids with autism, dyslexia, learning impairments, all sorts of disorders, are followed and given the attention they deserve. I'm just saying that the perceived threshold in the public opinion for what deserves medicines seems to be wildly different than the American one, when it is applied to hyperactivity (or hypoactivity, lack of motivation, etc) and to adults. (I'm from a big country in Europe).
I hope my questions don't come out as provocative. I acknowledge the ignorance in them, because I am ignorant (unknowing) on these topics. And that is the reason I want to find more (and help people like me to understand better). I appreciate any scientific study, paper, or any article with sources that you can offer. Thank you :)
- What are the symptoms? I read here that some argue that they cannot do menial tasks or get up from bed, others get up at 5am regularly or are exceptionally able to do chores. Some can't achieve anything in their life, losing one job after another, others are serial entrepreneurs and feel like having superpowers. I am confused by the broad and (apparent?) conflicting set of symptoms.
- How does the "evolution over time" of ADHD look like? What I mean is: is it a condition that "starts with you" since when you are born, or does it "begin" at some point, like a normal illness? Likewise, can it end? Can you heal from that? Can it be reduced? And in the "in between part", if you were to graph its intensity/presence, would draw a constant(ly high) line? Or are there periods of higher and lower intensity? If so, what is their frequency? And if you were to draw only the segments "controlled for other confounding factors", for example ignoring big impactful events like big successes, personal losses, breakups, particularly happy or particularly bad relationships (even long ones), periods of medication or drugs, turbulent hormonal teen years, periods with second jobs or complete lack of jobs, how would the graph change? I had up and down periods, mostly long downs (even years) and short noisy high frequency ups. Often I was able to identify the causes behind the intensity of my mood (identifying does not imply solving), and I wonder how this time series looks for everybody else, and if and how ADHD people's curves are different from the cluster of "normal" curves.
- What are the tests that are used to assess and quantify it?
- Any scientific study on the effect of various medication on people with ADHD and without? I'm particularly interested in the reported effects for "normal" people in control groups. The effects of some medicines that I often see described sound wonderful: stability, being able to focus, being able to do what is useful (chores, big projects), stopping train of thoughts, etc. Disregarding the fact that, much like with symptoms, it looks like the effects are wildly varying, overall they seem impressively useful, and I ask: are there reasons why anyone would not want improved focus, cognition, productivity and stability? Some of these drugs are indeed famous for being (ab)used by students or even workers, in some parts of the world, to push through stressful times. Why wouldn't and shouldn't everyone have access to those? And, related to this, how does one recognize that they may not be 100% genuine and objective with perceiving and describing their ADHD symptoms to a doctor, but maybe one is exaggerating something unconsciously just to get to those miraculous meds?
- How do you explain (or, better, do you have any paper that explain) the differences in the percentages of diagnosed cases throughout the world (thus, differences over space) and during the last decades (thus, differences time)? Is the incidence naturally different in different countries? Has it naturally changed over time? If so, was that due to a change in other causing factors? Or, more worryingly, did the way of diagnosing it change in time / is different across the world? If so, do you think (or have papers about) the current criteria for diagnosis are accurate and precise (identify the "true value" and with low variance) and uniform? Or is there still work to do? Maybe in 100 years they could have mutated into disgnoses for 10 different more specific disorders, that "our ancestors [we] thought it was just one thing", maybe the disorder won't exist anymore like hysteria evolved from the 1800 to today, or maybe they won't change that much.
- Same question as the above one, but on differences in treatment (over time and across countries). Any anecdotes on people being diagnosed in a rest-of-the-world (non-US) country? Was your experience similar to the ones you read about, from American fellows? Were your symptoms and treatment different? I am particularly interested in hearing more from the rest-of-the-world, being from a non-US country myself. It's hard to understand how much one is in a bubble of American experiences and anecdotes, when reading from the internet. For example, I never even heard in my country the word ADHD. My only experience is from reading about it on the English-speaking part of the Internet. Never heard stories of hyperactive kids taking medicines, or students or adults being prescribed stimulants to push through. I am sure such cases exist, but from my experience these things are just "not in the culture". For almost all the people I know from my country it would be unthinkable to even consider a hyperactive kid to be something to "medically treat". I'm not saying I come from a place where kids with problems are not treated, on the contrary, kids with autism, dyslexia, learning impairments, all sorts of disorders, are followed and given the attention they deserve. I'm just saying that the perceived threshold in the public opinion for what deserves medicines seems to be wildly different than the American one, when it is applied to hyperactivity (or hypoactivity, lack of motivation, etc) and to adults. (I'm from a big country in Europe).
I hope my questions don't come out as provocative. I acknowledge the ignorance in them, because I am ignorant (unknowing) on these topics. And that is the reason I want to find more (and help people like me to understand better). I appreciate any scientific study, paper, or any article with sources that you can offer. Thank you :)
Russell Barkley's videos on YouTube are a good overview of the science.
ADHD is defined as a cluster of symptoms like many other disorders. Probably there are different etiologies. But the treatments are the same.
Mild ADHD was less of an impediment before industrialization. It's less of an impediment if you have a secretary at the office and a wife at home. Self medicating can help. And what does a severe case look like if you don't know what you're looking at? Maybe shiftless, maybe dim, maybe accident prone, maybe hot headed, maybe a drunk. So it's no surprise diagnosis varies.
ADHD is defined as a cluster of symptoms like many other disorders. Probably there are different etiologies. But the treatments are the same.
Mild ADHD was less of an impediment before industrialization. It's less of an impediment if you have a secretary at the office and a wife at home. Self medicating can help. And what does a severe case look like if you don't know what you're looking at? Maybe shiftless, maybe dim, maybe accident prone, maybe hot headed, maybe a drunk. So it's no surprise diagnosis varies.
tangential question. but is there a credible online tool or something to get diagnosed for adhd? i don't want to see a psychiatrist.
You people are all nuts. It's amphetamine and you're getting high, and it's great isn't it?
Really I've never seen so much nonsense in one place... congratulations though on finding a steady supply of a drug that you like, just don't pretend you're any different from the rest of us junkies.
Really I've never seen so much nonsense in one place... congratulations though on finding a steady supply of a drug that you like, just don't pretend you're any different from the rest of us junkies.
If you are willing to pay the welfare costs when these people can't hold a job any longer then sure.
> I have not been diagnosed by a specialist
Nice, tell me what your uninformed arse thinks.
Nice, tell me what your uninformed arse thinks.
GABA supplements can help alleviate the symptoms of ADHD, if the source of it is anxiety.
There is ongoing investigation and debate about how GABA supplements work in the body, and how their mechanisms of action may differ from the body’s internally-produced GABA. Specifically, scientists have not reached consensus about whether, or how effectively, supplemental GABA crosses what’s known as the blood-brain barrier — meaning, how well it moves from the bloodstream directly into the brain. There remains real need for additional research into the effects of supplemental GABA, including how it may affect the nervous system via the gut.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleep-newzzz/201901/...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleep-newzzz/201901/...
Oh I'm sure benzos help for anxiety lmao good one dude. Of course they do.
Well, it is one of the documented uses for GABA.
https://www.healthline.com/health/gamma-aminobutyric-acid#us...
It makes sense to use a neuroinhibitor if you have hyperactivity.
Plus, they will make you sleep more and better, and good quality sleep will take care of a bunch of other issues you might be having.
Using stimulants for anxiety will push you deeper into anxiety.
https://www.healthline.com/health/gamma-aminobutyric-acid#us...
It makes sense to use a neuroinhibitor if you have hyperactivity.
Plus, they will make you sleep more and better, and good quality sleep will take care of a bunch of other issues you might be having.
Using stimulants for anxiety will push you deeper into anxiety.
For folks without ADHD, you should know that stimulants, like Ritalin and Adderall, do not usually cause the same response as in non-ADHD people. I've spoken with many people on stimulants, and none of them enjoy taking the medication, beyond what it has done to improve their lives. Furthermore, most ADHD people develop tolerance to medication over long periods of time -- eventually the drug does little-to-nothing itself. For myself, taking even high doses of a Adderall regularly produces no result -- might as well be taking sugar pills. I have to take them periodically (a few times a week at most) to get any sort of benefit.
The proper medication and dosage should not make you feel "high" -- if anything it's almost the opposite. You get some clarity, an ability to direct your focus without a thousand distractions a minute, and perhaps even a sense of time.
I let some non-ADHD friends try a low dose of Ritalin when I had switched off of it and had some left over, and they were bouncing off the fucking walls -- I would strongly not recommend taking stimulants unless medically necessary.
For people with ADHD, they can be truly life saving. For recreational use, avoid.