The “Granny Knot”(fieggen.com)
fieggen.com
The “Granny Knot”
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknot.htm
261 comments
Yup, the Ian Knot and the Secure Knot (https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm) have taken over my household. The latter is particularly good for kids, who often learn the "bunny ears" method, but then switch to double-knotting and all the attendant untangling hassle.
I did this too and also momentarily forgot how to tie my shoes! (Forgot the new method, and the old method.) Now I have saved literally minutes of my life on shoe tying.
Is there a word or a phrase for this phenomenon? When something becomes a habit requiring no thought at all and then, when forced to actually think about it, the brain draws a complete blank?
Yes, "the centipede effect": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Centipede%27s_Dilemma
What a great poem:
“A centipede was happy – quite!
Until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg moves after which?"
This raised her doubts to such a pitch,
She fell exhausted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.“
“A centipede was happy – quite!
Until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg moves after which?"
This raised her doubts to such a pitch,
She fell exhausted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.“
Check out the Backwards Brain Bicycle. Lots of fun.
https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0
https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0
Personally I call this « playing piano », as I’m not sure I’ve ever gotten passed this stage when practicing..
In classical music at least it's often referred to as a "memory lapse"
Your comment got me looking into the phenomenon, and I found this great article: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1994-07-17-19941981...
From 1994!
From 1994!
Would love to read if anyone has it mirrored? Looks like the original article isn't available for EU market.
Maybe one of these two will work:
https://outline.com/SeEEHt
https://archive.is/D05nu
For the future, you can usually create these for yourself by going to top of the sites that I linked.
https://outline.com/SeEEHt
https://archive.is/D05nu
For the future, you can usually create these for yourself by going to top of the sites that I linked.
Works great! Also on other sites, thanks for the tip.
Wonderful article, great find!
And I like being reminded of the great pressure many creative spirits feel. It's serious business, managing pressure and also doing your work.
And I like being reminded of the great pressure many creative spirits feel. It's serious business, managing pressure and also doing your work.
Some refer to it as an effect of muscle memory. Something you can do effortlessly, but can't actually describe how to another person.
That and, apologies in advance, the phenomenon of 'manual breathing'.
Emacs!
A few weeks ago I went to play a piece on the piano. I completely blanked, tried to piece together the intro by ear but wasn't really getting anywhere. My teacher played the intro and then boom, the whole thing was back under my fingers.
The brain really is fascinating.
The brain really is fascinating.
I went to the shops yesterday and forgot the PIN code for both my cards. I've been typing one of those in for nearly 20 years. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My mum frequently punches in her postal code instead.
My mum frequently punches in her postal code instead.
Try to remember the finger movements.
Works well until you encounter a new keypad layout (eg when going abroad). I locked my card once like this although I had been typing the code for years before.
Android has this "draw a path through some dots in a grid" analogue to a PIN code. On the boot screen, the grid is a somewhat different size than on the unlock screen. This defeated my muscle memory, and my conscious memory had lost its backup.
This happens to me all the time when playing guitar. I could be there blankly strumming wondering what the notes were, but the moment I get something right, I’ve got it. Or sometimes it’s that I can’t remember the rhythm at all and I try to hum it or anything at all that might help me remember and once I’ve got the first few moments it comes flooding back.
It doesn’t help that I’m relatively new to guitar.
It doesn’t help that I’m relatively new to guitar.
> It doesn’t help that I’m relatively new to guitar.
I've played for 16 years and I still have these moments. But thankfully it's so satisfying when the music finally kicks in.
I've played for 16 years and I still have these moments. But thankfully it's so satisfying when the music finally kicks in.
Same thing! I had played the piece 5 minutes before the lesson and right after the lesson warmup (I warmup before the lesson so that my teacher thinks I'm better than I really am...ego..self denial...whatever) he asks for the piece and I can't play beyond the first bar.
I want to say sincerely that this exchange is life-changing. I'm old and in rapidly declining physical health. I feel like my brain is working just fine, but the fact of my always-bad memory has been leaving me with the existentially terrifying question "is that going too?"
I realize now I've been having these incidents all my life. Recently I've had the niggling sensation that maybe it's just self-delusion. Nope! Been going on the whole time, just like the lot of you. Thanks for sharing, and I mean that.
I realize now I've been having these incidents all my life. Recently I've had the niggling sensation that maybe it's just self-delusion. Nope! Been going on the whole time, just like the lot of you. Thanks for sharing, and I mean that.
I recently did this too, took about a week to get in the habit but now it's great!
I've been using the Ian knot since around 2005 and it's easily the most impactful "life hack" I've ever made. My shoes basically never come untied.
Doesn’t it still produce the same knot as the standard shoe tie knot? I thought it was just a faster method?
One is symmetric, the other one isn't.
Yes. I'd guess he means Ian's Secure Knot, which I also now use.
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
the ian's secure knot is one of those things that you don't think will make much of a difference to your daily life but it's like inventing a way to not stub your toe every now and again. well worth it.
I learned to tie Ian's Secure Knot when I had a pair of shoelaces that liked to come untied constantly (I guess the material was too slippery, or something). Never had the problem again.
Some other trivial life hacks aren't necessarily worth it in practice. With the T-shirt folding one, for instance, the bottom shirt of a stack of shirts tends to unfold itself when you pick up the stack, since one arm of the shirt is basically just folded underneath. The mild inconvenience outweighed the mild convenience for me, and I no longer fold shirts that way.
I'll probably tie my shoes with Ian's knot for life, though.
Some other trivial life hacks aren't necessarily worth it in practice. With the T-shirt folding one, for instance, the bottom shirt of a stack of shirts tends to unfold itself when you pick up the stack, since one arm of the shirt is basically just folded underneath. The mild inconvenience outweighed the mild convenience for me, and I no longer fold shirts that way.
I'll probably tie my shoes with Ian's knot for life, though.
Is it easy to do a tight Ian's Secure Knot? The only place I would need a more secure knot is when skiing and then I also need to tie the laces very tight. Keeping the laces tight while creating the loops seems slightly difficult.
I'm not sure if it works in this context, but I tie a knot equivalent to Ian's Secure Knot, asymmetrically.
I use the standard "bunny goes around the tree" methodology, except I go around twice before pulling the loop through both.
It might be easier for your use case, because you can hold the knot with one hand while sending the bunny around the tree with the other.
I use the standard "bunny goes around the tree" methodology, except I go around twice before pulling the loop through both.
It might be easier for your use case, because you can hold the knot with one hand while sending the bunny around the tree with the other.
That's called the Better Bow on the site.
It's the one I use with my paracord laces.
Never comes undone.
It's the one I use with my paracord laces.
Never comes undone.
I'm a figure skater. I tie my regular shoes with Ian's secure knot. My skating boots are tied with more regular knots however. Ski shoes would be very similar.
Ian's secure knot doesn't really make sense on such long laces anyway, and making it tight is not very easy because you can't pull to tighten further like you normally would.
The main advantage of Ian's secure knot is that it doesn't come loose over time. But you won't have that problem in ski or skating shoes because you will be redoing much more of the lacing every single time you put them on; a much tighter one at that. So the few hours you'll have your boots on shouldn't make a difference, and if it does, there's something else off in your lacing technique.
Ian's secure knot doesn't really make sense on such long laces anyway, and making it tight is not very easy because you can't pull to tighten further like you normally would.
The main advantage of Ian's secure knot is that it doesn't come loose over time. But you won't have that problem in ski or skating shoes because you will be redoing much more of the lacing every single time you put them on; a much tighter one at that. So the few hours you'll have your boots on shouldn't make a difference, and if it does, there's something else off in your lacing technique.
I like that one also, never comes undone. However there is one major downside: When one of the ends accidentally goes through a loop before pulling on it to untie your shoes, you end up with a very annoying solid knot instead that takes time to fiddle apart.
You are right. It's the same bowtie knot, just tied in a single motion.
Yes, it does, but the Ian Knot is more reliable, especially in places where you don't have the instant muscle memory like shoelaces. If you learn the standard knot incorrectly it results in you doing a Granny Knot. But if you try to tie the Ian's Knot, you can't tie it incorrectly because it just doesn't work. And of course yes, it's faster.
ETA: Also, OP may have been tying a Granny Knot from time to time which results in shoelaces coming untied very quickly. So the Ian knot gets you both faster tied shoes and shoes that stay tied.
ETA: Also, OP may have been tying a Granny Knot from time to time which results in shoelaces coming untied very quickly. So the Ian knot gets you both faster tied shoes and shoes that stay tied.
Well, tying the Ian Knot still requires you to do your starting knot in the correct orientation. Mixing it up will still result in the Granny Knot. From the other responses, it sounds like some are still getting Granny Knots even when using Ian's tying method.
Some time after I started tying Ian's way, I surprised myself by effortlessly tying an apron behind my back.
You are correct, as indicated by the following quote on the page I linked: “The finished Ian Knot is identical to either the Standard Shoelace Knot [...].”
Changing my Granny Knot (unbalanced) to a Standard Shoelace Knot (balanced) would have produced the same result. However, I found the Ian Knot approach to be helpful in preventing me from absentmindedly reverting back to the Granny Knot.
Changing my Granny Knot (unbalanced) to a Standard Shoelace Knot (balanced) would have produced the same result. However, I found the Ian Knot approach to be helpful in preventing me from absentmindedly reverting back to the Granny Knot.
Went to the shoes to test: Ian Knot is faster and the cord is “relaxed” (less internal stress to contribute towards loosening) rather than twisted.
I’ll try words to describe the Ian Knot: Cross the laces, tuck one under the other, and pull; let go, then pick up a “bunny ear” loop in each hand, one on either side of the pre-knot; with your middle finger, push the out-side of each “ear” through the opposite loop; with thumb and middle finger of each hand, grab the loops simultaneously as they come through; pull tight. Looks like a double knot (two loops, each around the neck of the other) with each free end fed back through, forming the loops and ensuring easy undoing.
I’ll try words to describe the Ian Knot: Cross the laces, tuck one under the other, and pull; let go, then pick up a “bunny ear” loop in each hand, one on either side of the pre-knot; with your middle finger, push the out-side of each “ear” through the opposite loop; with thumb and middle finger of each hand, grab the loops simultaneously as they come through; pull tight. Looks like a double knot (two loops, each around the neck of the other) with each free end fed back through, forming the loops and ensuring easy undoing.
How do you do it? I've been using it for more than a decade too and I can't make it that solid. I'm very active and clumsy so I'm really stressing the knot lots of times.
Try doing a double knot. There's a double starting knot shown:
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/doublestartknot.htm
And then also a surgeons knot is shown:
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm
(which doesn't use the double starting knot)
I do both together, starting with two twists and then also wrapping the loops twice.
I experimented with the double knot following some foot pain; the advantage for me is that the knot doesn't really slip any, allowing me to set the tension I want and not have to revisit it. I guess you then also have to make sure not to over-tighten.
I read about it here: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/running-doc-d...
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/doublestartknot.htm
And then also a surgeons knot is shown:
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm
(which doesn't use the double starting knot)
I do both together, starting with two twists and then also wrapping the loops twice.
I experimented with the double knot following some foot pain; the advantage for me is that the knot doesn't really slip any, allowing me to set the tension I want and not have to revisit it. I guess you then also have to make sure not to over-tighten.
I read about it here: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/running-doc-d...
Was all excited to learn this knot until I realized none of my shoes have laces, I've fully converting to no-tie quicklaces.
I did the same thing! I fixed my granny knot habit years ago, but apparently also subconsciously weeded tie-every-time laces out of my habits--which is saying something, because I rarely wear anything but Chuck Taylors!
Also for fun times observe people's knots around you :)
Especially funny to casually mention it to coworkers or seniors
Especially funny to casually mention it to coworkers or seniors
The "Ian Knot" pairs well with the Japanese T-shirt folding technique:
https://youtu.be/dNr1oLhZ0zs
Also, tie wearers, take the time to learn a Full Windsor:
https://youtu.be/HXJx8j7JpKY
https://youtu.be/dNr1oLhZ0zs
Also, tie wearers, take the time to learn a Full Windsor:
https://youtu.be/HXJx8j7JpKY
That Full Windsor - it's a revelation to me that it looks good even without the top button of the shirt buttoned. I also thought I had to button the top button of my shirt, which I hate.
Every time I try to do the Japanese fold... this is how it ends up: https://i.imgur.com/FBYu2Ry.gif
I honestly never find that folding technique better than just.. fold it thrice using the exactly same three folding lines:
https://i.imgur.com/CRxFYwS.png
The end result is identical, not really slower, it's easier to adjust the "proportion' during the process, and it works better with long sleeves with minor adjustment.
https://i.imgur.com/CRxFYwS.png
The end result is identical, not really slower, it's easier to adjust the "proportion' during the process, and it works better with long sleeves with minor adjustment.
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Half Windsor is still more in fashion and still produces a neat, symmetrical knot. Beware, though, after learning a good knot you will see the four in hand knot everywhere and it will annoy you.
I've been using the Full Windsor since my dad taught it to me when I was 13. I'm not much one for fashion, but I think it's a timeless knot. Apparently James Bond didn't think much of it though. :-)
> Also, tie wearers, take the time to learn a Full Windsor
I mean, if you are into attempts to simulate the look of a four-in-hand knot used on a wider piece of material as popularized by a particular celebrity Nazi sympathizer, sure.
Unless you are particularly tall, in which case finding ties long enough to wear with a full windsor is enough trouble that you might as well find something wide enough to achieve the effect the authentic way with a four-in-hand.
I mean, if you are into attempts to simulate the look of a four-in-hand knot used on a wider piece of material as popularized by a particular celebrity Nazi sympathizer, sure.
Unless you are particularly tall, in which case finding ties long enough to wear with a full windsor is enough trouble that you might as well find something wide enough to achieve the effect the authentic way with a four-in-hand.
The Windsor looks nothing like the four-in-hand. It's a symmetric, full knot. The four-in-hand is asymmetric and skinny. I happen to think the Windsor is the best looking knot here:
https://www.ties.com/how-to-tie-a-tie/windsor
(Scroll down to Explore More Knots.)
I've been using it since I was 13. My father taught it to me. His father taught it to him. I've taught it to my son.
I haven't tied the the Pratt knot before, but it looks like it's a nice nearly symmetrical knot that doesn't use up much of the tie.
https://www.ties.com/how-to-tie-a-tie/windsor
(Scroll down to Explore More Knots.)
I've been using it since I was 13. My father taught it to me. His father taught it to him. I've taught it to my son.
I haven't tied the the Pratt knot before, but it looks like it's a nice nearly symmetrical knot that doesn't use up much of the tie.
> the Windsor looks nothing like the four-in-hand
The Windsor is an attempt to simulate, with a common tie, the look of a knot the late Duke of Windsor was known to wear, which was, in fact, a four-in-hand tied on a much wider (and, I suspect—though I have seen no documentation on this point—differently shaped) piece of material than common ties.
> I've been using it since I was 13. My father taught it to me. His father taught it to him. I've taught it to my son.
I’m not sure what relevance that has; I learned it about the same age, also from my father (who I suspect didn’t learn it from his father, whose personality, age, and socioeconomic background probably would not have inclined him to jump on that particular newfangled fashion trend.)
The Windsor is an attempt to simulate, with a common tie, the look of a knot the late Duke of Windsor was known to wear, which was, in fact, a four-in-hand tied on a much wider (and, I suspect—though I have seen no documentation on this point—differently shaped) piece of material than common ties.
> I've been using it since I was 13. My father taught it to me. His father taught it to him. I've taught it to my son.
I’m not sure what relevance that has; I learned it about the same age, also from my father (who I suspect didn’t learn it from his father, whose personality, age, and socioeconomic background probably would not have inclined him to jump on that particular newfangled fashion trend.)
I've been using the Ian knot for many years, to the point I'm now very slow making the normal knot.
I find the Ian knot effective enough, but I think it comes undone more easily than a normal shoelace knot, I had to tie my shoes a lot back when I was outside for many hours of the day and night.
I find the Ian knot effective enough, but I think it comes undone more easily than a normal shoelace knot, I had to tie my shoes a lot back when I was outside for many hours of the day and night.
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the end result of the Ian knot is supposed to be identical to the standard shoelace knot, see https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknottech.htm.
There is also https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm.
There is a handy listing of which knots are actually different towards the bottom of this page: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/knotcomparison.htm#identica...
There is also https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm.
There is a handy listing of which knots are actually different towards the bottom of this page: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/knotcomparison.htm#identica...
This looks like a square knot with loops- which is exactly how I tie mine
love this guys site, and I like that fast one, but I find this one a really good one https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
Ian knot is the best! Unfortunately my wife isnt as impressed by my knot tying ability as I thought she would be
I do this as well. Once I learned how to do the Ian knot I never went back.
Same here. In fact, in looking at the Ian Knot page again, I might start tying the "Starting Knot" differently as well!
I have shoes I do not untie. For example, I have some mocassins for around the house with a rawhide lace that is basically a decoration. But it comes untied!
So for those kinds of things, I use the ian secure knot: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
Actually, with the rawhide nonsense on one pair, even that would eventually come loose so I zip-tied the middle of the knot. :)
So for those kinds of things, I use the ian secure knot: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
Actually, with the rawhide nonsense on one pair, even that would eventually come loose so I zip-tied the middle of the knot. :)
I've been using the Ian knot for years now and every now and then (like once a year at most) someone will notice how quickly I tie my laces. It looks impossible for people used to the school method.
Wow that site's explanation is amazing. I learned it in 2 minutes! Life changing shit!
The problem I see with this is that with some types of laces the first knot could loosen up while making the second part. But that might be fixed with technique.
Same here. You might been interested in learning about the lace lock[0] as well, if you haven't already.
[0]: https://youtu.be/LXjOLWgWq9kI remember coming across this website when I was 11 or 12. I went to school and showed the Ian Knot to my friends. I was like "guys, look how fast I can tie my shoelaces". They were all super impressed. I'm 23 now and this is still how I tie my shoelaces
Totally worth it!
And going from "Granny Knot" to "Ian Knot" is actually a lot simpler than relearning the correct way to tie the normal knot. I tried that first ... but relearning the exact same finger movements but mirrored was not possible for me.
I also use his "Secure Knot" [1] when hiking ... although my SO ridicules me for tying shoes with the bunny ears technique :-)
[1] https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
And going from "Granny Knot" to "Ian Knot" is actually a lot simpler than relearning the correct way to tie the normal knot. I tried that first ... but relearning the exact same finger movements but mirrored was not possible for me.
I also use his "Secure Knot" [1] when hiking ... although my SO ridicules me for tying shoes with the bunny ears technique :-)
[1] https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
Seconded. Since switching to the Ian knot I never find myself retieing my shoes. Even the granny knot version stays tied. It's especially good on thin slippery laces used on dress shoes.
That whole site is a goldmine.
Gratified to see that he also has a youtube channel and his most popular lacing video has 5M+ views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkCoG6n8vk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DkCoG6n8vk
The "Ian Knot"[0] (which, I just discovered, was invented by the author of that site) is quite possibly the coolest and fastest way to tie your shoes.
[0] - https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm
[0] - https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm
That would not work for me. I need to keep one finger on the slip knot at all times or it becomes loose, resulting in a very unsatisfying knot. This has been by far the biggest hurdle to teaching my kids to tie a decent knot in their shoelaces: they can move through the motions just fine but it's always loose. I actually start with my left index finger on the slip knot then transition to my right index finger halfway through - much more complicated than it at first seems.
what slip knot?
I've been using the Ian knot for probably 10 years now, if anything it's easier to tie it tight since you can keep the tension on the first not held until the very end.
I've been using the Ian knot for probably 10 years now, if anything it's easier to tie it tight since you can keep the tension on the first not held until the very end.
Not sure if this would help, and I'm not exactly sure I'm understanding you correctly, but when I tie hockey stakes, instead of a single "left-over-right starting knot" (using terminology from the post), I wrap around two or even three times. This provides enough friction for that first knot to stay put while I tie the loops of the standard shoelace knot (not the Ian knot, with which I'm unfamiliar).
Sounds like you do something similar to the surgeon's knot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon%27s_knot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon%27s_knot
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Try the Surgeon's Knot instead: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm
I keep the starting knot taught by simply keeping the ends tensioned at all times when tying.
Re people saying the Ian knot doesn’t come undone: neither do my normal ones.
Re people saying the Ian knot doesn’t come undone: neither do my normal ones.
The reason your knot does not come undone has nothing to do with tension and everything to do with the order of the way you tie it. Left over right, then right over left. If you learned the standard knot as a kid in the right order and continue to do it the same way today, then the Ian knot will tie the exact same knot. The only difference is that the Ian knot will wear your laces more evenly and it ties faster.
I didn’t mean that tension keeps my knots tied (though clearly some tension is necessary), it was two separate replies — and I’m pretty sure I make granny knots. Eh maybe knot.
Knots I've tied Ian's way are the most taut, precisely because I have no issue applying tension all the way, instead of the old method with switching hands and stuff, where that was impossible.
If you're doing it right, the result is not like keeping a finger on the slipknot - it's better (and simpler, faster and as taut as you want).
If you're doing it right, the result is not like keeping a finger on the slipknot - it's better (and simpler, faster and as taut as you want).
I keep one of my ringfingers (specifically left hand) on the overhand (starter) knot while I thread the other bits. Works a treat.
This is my issue and the sole reason I haven’t adopted the Ian knot. I didn’t realize it but I do the same finger swap that you do.
I’m a runner and it’s important for my laces to be exactly as tight as I need them to be. I’m wondering if others here aren’t as exacting with their knot tension needs.
I’m a runner and it’s important for my laces to be exactly as tight as I need them to be. I’m wondering if others here aren’t as exacting with their knot tension needs.
With the Secure Ian's knot, I keep the slip knot loose and only strengthen the other one against that one. It stays firm and my shoe stays comfortable.
I use a similar technique to the Ian knot except I pinch the shoelace instead so only the forefinger and pinky are involved and my middle finger is free to hold the slip knot.
The technique I use looks like this: https://youtu.be/_aAeI7p-Tkc?t=11
The technique I use looks like this: https://youtu.be/_aAeI7p-Tkc?t=11
Tried that knot and aside from taking several minutes for me to figure it out, it didn't seem to result in a knot that held very well. I'll stick with the standard way I learned 40 years ago and can do without thinking.
The end knot is identical to the standard bowknot, so it seems unlikely that this would hold any worse. If you're currently tying your shoes in a granny knot, I would be very surprised if that held better than a bowknot.
I've used this method to tie all my shoes for more than a decade and it holds much better than the granny knot, which I'd guess is probably 50% of people (as whether not you end up with a granny or a bow knot is just the toss of a coin). The benefit of Ian's tying method is that it is impossible to end up with a granny knot.
My shoes never* come untied, without needing to resort to a "double-knot".
* Except my Sperry Docksiders, which have leather laces and don't seem to keep any kind of knot very well.
I've used this method to tie all my shoes for more than a decade and it holds much better than the granny knot, which I'd guess is probably 50% of people (as whether not you end up with a granny or a bow knot is just the toss of a coin). The benefit of Ian's tying method is that it is impossible to end up with a granny knot.
My shoes never* come untied, without needing to resort to a "double-knot".
* Except my Sperry Docksiders, which have leather laces and don't seem to keep any kind of knot very well.
My regular shoes have round laces, I'd guess they are nylon, some kind of synthetic fiber. Sort of slippery. Never have a problem with them coming untied if I pull the knot tight though. I don't double knot.
Maybe I did the Ian knot wrong. Don't have a problem with the knot I use so not investigating further.
Maybe I did the Ian knot wrong. Don't have a problem with the knot I use so not investigating further.
> My regular shoes have round laces,
I don't know why anybody makes round laces, especially out of a material that slips.
I have a pair of dress shoes that came with round laces. Even with a "correct" knot, even with double-knotting, they always came undone. I replaced the laces with standard flat laces. They might not look as good, but they look better than having to re-tie them every 30 minutes.
I don't know why anybody makes round laces, especially out of a material that slips.
I have a pair of dress shoes that came with round laces. Even with a "correct" knot, even with double-knotting, they always came undone. I replaced the laces with standard flat laces. They might not look as good, but they look better than having to re-tie them every 30 minutes.
I actually switched to the Ian Knot specifically to handle the stiffer leather laces of boat shoes and boots. Previously, getting a knot in leather to hold was a miracle and I would slip the shoes on and off (causing unnecessary wear and tear) just to avoid disturbing the knot. The Ian Knot allows me to treat leather laces like any other material and has extended the life of several pairs of shoes as a result.
I will say that I cinch the knot tighter with leather laces than any other material because, like you mentioned, they are fussy.
I will say that I cinch the knot tighter with leather laces than any other material because, like you mentioned, they are fussy.
Granny knots are easy to make while maintaining constant tension on the laces. Other techniques leave a moment where you relax the ends of the laces.
This is how I've been tying my shoes for a while and can recommend! Unfortunately I did not learn it from the inventor's website but rather from this site[1], which may be a total knockoff or may be a case of "parallel thinking".
[1] https://freedomknot.com/
[1] https://freedomknot.com/
I learned it from a 3-min TED talk [0]. I didn't realize it had a proper name.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFcV7zuUDA
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAFcV7zuUDA
Well so either way the "proper" way is to end up with a bowknot, as demonstrated. However, the TED talk's method of getting there I would actually classify as wrong.
If you want to use the "bunny rabbit" method, the easiest way to turn your granny into a bow is just to switch which way you tie the laces over each other at the beginning – that is much easier than trying to invert the bunny ear thingy.
However, the even easier way (and what GC was pointing out) is the "Ian" method, where you pull the bows through each other simultaneously, which (with practice) is faster and always guarantees a bow knot.
If you want to use the "bunny rabbit" method, the easiest way to turn your granny into a bow is just to switch which way you tie the laces over each other at the beginning – that is much easier than trying to invert the bunny ear thingy.
However, the even easier way (and what GC was pointing out) is the "Ian" method, where you pull the bows through each other simultaneously, which (with practice) is faster and always guarantees a bow knot.
"Copyright © 2012 FreedomKnot"
Mr Fieggen's site is a lot older than that, so possibly "parallel thinking"... But because of the cutesy story, cheesy layout, and above all, "Freedom Fries!" name, I'll go with knock-off.
Mr Fieggen's site is a lot older than that, so possibly "parallel thinking"... But because of the cutesy story, cheesy layout, and above all, "Freedom Fries!" name, I'll go with knock-off.
After I stumbled upon this site years ago, the Ian knot is how I tie my shoes every time.
The hardest part about this knot is making sure that somebody is watching while you do it. Every time I tie my shoes alone, I feel an upwelling of regret, as if there has been an opportunity lost.
The hardest part about this knot is making sure that somebody is watching while you do it. Every time I tie my shoes alone, I feel an upwelling of regret, as if there has been an opportunity lost.
There is a special t-shirt folding method with this same property.
I have seen this done but have never learned it.
Link? I'd love to see / learn this.
Probably something like this method; https://youtu.be/uz6rjbw0ZA0
Now what about folding fitted sheets? That’s guru-level.
Given a clockwise counting of corners, with the "outside" facing away from you (so you are looking at / reaching "into" the sheets from the elastic side):
grab the inside of 2, invert, shove into the inside of 1.
do the same for 3 into 4.
now you have a sheet folded in half, with two pairs of corners together.
grab the inside of 1+2, invert, shove into the inside of 3+4.
now it's folded to a quarter, and all the messy stuff is together.
lay out flat, straighten messy stuff a bit, so you can do the next step more easily.
grab the whole thing, chuck into the closet.I’ve already mastered the last step.
Step 1: Only buy one set of sheets
Step 2: There is no Step 2
Step 2: There is no Step 2
I never understood the need to fold bed sheets. Crinkled sheets simply aren’t a problem I’ve ever had; you barely notice the difference once they’re stretched over the bed and pillows. I have a blanket box at the end of the bed; I just shove the second set of sheets in straight out of the dryer.
(I do fold sheets for the guest bed but that’s because the alternative set might spend months on the shelf. Most of the time the same set is washed and put straight back on the bed.)
(I do fold sheets for the guest bed but that’s because the alternative set might spend months on the shelf. Most of the time the same set is washed and put straight back on the bed.)
You fold them so you can stack them on other folded things. If they're messily folded, the pile falls over as you carry the basket upstairs, or stack other things onto them on your shelves.
For me bedsheets are their own wash cycle, so there’s nothing to stack them with. I just carry them upstairs and dump them into the blanket box when they're done. No need for a basket.
But let's say your washing process is different to mine. I'd still rather do two trips upstairs than fold sheets.
But let's say your washing process is different to mine. I'd still rather do two trips upstairs than fold sheets.
I need this, I absolutely suck at folding t-shirts.
Is this the shoe equivalent of arch linux?
As both an arch user and a ian secure knotter, i can confirm your suspicions.
(btw I use Ian's knot)
(btw I use Ian's knot)
Agree, the other problem is that the knot hardly ever comes loose. So you have to put in extra effort to create those spontaneous moments where you have to tighten your laces after someones points out they went "loose".
I’m not sure if it was “invented” by the author, I’ve been doing the same knot for 30 years. We call it rå-bands-knop (raw-strings-knot would be a literal translation) and I believe most kids here learn it at an early age.
I've also noticed that in Colombia they always tie plastic bags with this technique. Even in supermarkets, making them harder to carry.
Råbandsknop is the same as square knot; granny knot (kärringknut) but the right way around. As shoelace knots, (rosetter) both are of course "slipped".
The "Ian knot" that people are discussing is neither square nor granny knot in and of itself, but how you make it: The technique of having a loose loop in each hand and "pulling both through each other", which is much faster than tbe "ordinary" ways of making each that he presents on each separate knot's page. Topologically it results in the exact same end result: Do it the right way around and you get a square knot; the wrong way, a granny knot.
A bit weird of the tomtenisse to link to that exact page of the site; granny knot / kärringknut is the absolute worst result you could end up with. The whole site is pretty much about how to avoid ending up with one. (OK, slight exaggeration there.)
The "Ian knot" that people are discussing is neither square nor granny knot in and of itself, but how you make it: The technique of having a loose loop in each hand and "pulling both through each other", which is much faster than tbe "ordinary" ways of making each that he presents on each separate knot's page. Topologically it results in the exact same end result: Do it the right way around and you get a square knot; the wrong way, a granny knot.
A bit weird of the tomtenisse to link to that exact page of the site; granny knot / kärringknut is the absolute worst result you could end up with. The whole site is pretty much about how to avoid ending up with one. (OK, slight exaggeration there.)
[deleted]
thanks. learnt it (Ian knot) in few minutes. curious if there's also a quick way to untie this knot.
I recommend this knot as an upgrade: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
Do the "bunny ears" way of tying your shoes but loop both "ears" through. Presto, a knot that won't work its way undone and you can usually tell when you step on a lace because there's so much resistance.
Do the "bunny ears" way of tying your shoes but loop both "ears" through. Presto, a knot that won't work its way undone and you can usually tell when you step on a lace because there's so much resistance.
This is how I've been tying my shoes for well over a year now, and it's great.
Also how I tie my youngest's cleats for soccer and t-ball: he hasn't had his shoelaces come undone since I switched to this technique.
Also how I tie my youngest's cleats for soccer and t-ball: he hasn't had his shoelaces come undone since I switched to this technique.
Yes. I've been doing this for years. It's the only way to go.
Indeed. I use the Ian knot normally, but if I were to be doing something like hiking or ice skating, I'll use that variation. It never comes undone.
Remember websites?
We (UK) used to call it a 'Granny Knot' if someone at school pulled your tie so it became basically stuck around your neck because it was so tight.
I know now we were totally wrong about that!
This kind of website is why I love the internet. I mean, look at the level of devotion on display here!
I know now we were totally wrong about that!
This kind of website is why I love the internet. I mean, look at the level of devotion on display here!
In the Midlands school I went to, this was called a 'peanut'.
I never learned the usual way to tie shoes. I kind of do the "two loop" but double it up. I'm a five-year-old at heart.
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/twoloopknot.htm
Professor Shoelace kind of looks like a topology professor of mine.
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/twoloopknot.htm
Professor Shoelace kind of looks like a topology professor of mine.
This website is a gem. Bookmarked. Thank you!
This site, or a page on it, has been submitted many times, and had many lively comment sections, in case you are interesting in what people said in the past.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
People are very negative about these kinds of TED talks, but I actually improved my hand drying technique after the TEDx on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FMBSblpcrc
That and using the back of my hand/arm to push off the water from my body after a shower keep our towels much dryer and nicer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FMBSblpcrc
That and using the back of my hand/arm to push off the water from my body after a shower keep our towels much dryer and nicer.
Why would I need to worry about keeping my towels "dryer"? Are you showering twice a day or something?
If you live in a humid environment, your towels can very easily get a bit funky smelling kinda quickly. Not making them as damp/wet can make a big difference.
Mildew is rife. I am blessed/cursed with an exception ability to smell it.
Because wet towels can grow mold/smell, which means I need to wash them more which in turn means I need to replace them more (since even cold washes damage tower's fibers).
There's no downside to getting towels less wet (in particular when you're just flicking off water/pushing it off with your hand/arm for free), but there are upsides. So why not?
There's no downside to getting towels less wet (in particular when you're just flicking off water/pushing it off with your hand/arm for free), but there are upsides. So why not?
This is one of my favorite Ted talks ever. I have referred so many people to it. It’s amazing what a difference a few extra little details can make in how fast and easy it is to dry my hands.
That said, I’ve tried a bunch of different ways to tie my shoes and never found a big difference between them.
That said, I’ve tried a bunch of different ways to tie my shoes and never found a big difference between them.
It seems amazing that some people have to be taught things like this as an adult. There seem to be certain things that some people will "just know", while others need to be explicitly taught. I needed to explicitly learn how to socialise. Nobody teaches you how to do it, but there are many rules you are expected to know and follow. I think a lot of these things aren't explicitly taught because it allows certain people to be superior to others. Finance is a good example of this.
i agree... i noticed a similar thing when i've had my 1-1 with leadership. i felt so good after walking out of those meetings but nothing was really done. it was a number of years later, when i discovered a curriculum that is thought to "life coaches" (and i suspect among other people but it's through this venue that i discovered this), that basically teaches you how to listen. it goes beyond just socializing. these folks in leadership applied the same techniques that were taught to life coaches. nobody teaches this either.
I tie my shoe like this ever since I saw this talk. I'm not sure which knot it is in the OP though.
So satisfying every time!
If you like this, you may also be interested in the Animated Knots website, which includes a page on Square/Reef knots, the Granny mistake, and the Shoelace Bow:
https://www.animatedknots.com/square-knot
https://www.animatedknots.com/shoelace-bow-knot
The latter page links back to the submitted link!
https://www.animatedknots.com/square-knot
https://www.animatedknots.com/shoelace-bow-knot
The latter page links back to the submitted link!
As others have mentioned, Ian's knots has great reccommendations, but overlooked is the "surgeon's knot".
This one has two twists instead of the normal one, and comes out like a square knot if done right. It won't come untied by itself, ever. But you can untie it by tugging on the tails of the laces. You can do this one with a thumb on the initial bend, unlike the "bunny ears" style knots.
It's a hell of a lot better than the "double knot" your kids' teachers will do if they go to school with any kind of single knot, square or not. Double knotting just results in big jams when one tries to untie it later.
Check out the surgeon's knot: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm
This one has two twists instead of the normal one, and comes out like a square knot if done right. It won't come untied by itself, ever. But you can untie it by tugging on the tails of the laces. You can do this one with a thumb on the initial bend, unlike the "bunny ears" style knots.
It's a hell of a lot better than the "double knot" your kids' teachers will do if they go to school with any kind of single knot, square or not. Double knotting just results in big jams when one tries to untie it later.
Check out the surgeon's knot: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm
I don't know why, but the picture of the shoe, with the knot at the toe end of the shoe, makes me angry. I mean, literally angry, very angry, yet there is zero valid reason to be that emotionally charged about it.
Intellectually, I wonder "how will one get their shoe off, without lots of work". Yet the anger is intense for some inane reason.
Now I wonder if I need therapy, due to some shoe related horror in the past.
Intellectually, I wonder "how will one get their shoe off, without lots of work". Yet the anger is intense for some inane reason.
Now I wonder if I need therapy, due to some shoe related horror in the past.
> the knot at the toe end of the shoe
What are you talking about? That photo shows the knot at the heel end.
What are you talking about? That photo shows the knot at the heel end.
Wow. It does. Wild. I literally saw the toe end of a shoe there, due to the darker colour. I wonder how many others will see that first, or if I'm just borked.
(I had to go back, stare at it, enlarge the pic, stare some more, then I saw it the correct way.)
(I had to go back, stare at it, enlarge the pic, stare some more, then I saw it the correct way.)
Just pull the ends to get it off. Works great, never gets untied.
Are you referring to this picture: https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/finished-Surgeons-Knot.jpg
The perspective of the picture fooled me for a moment too, but this knot is in the usual position.
The perspective of the picture fooled me for a moment too, but this knot is in the usual position.
Likely those with a heightened sense of perception are detecting this illusion. I mean, clearly that explains it.
It actually isn't at the toe end of the shoe, but I thought the same thing the first time I looked at it. The bit that looks like the "toe" is actually the hole where your foot goes in, and the perspective is reversed from what you'd be looking at if you were staring down at shoes you are currently wearing. For some reason my brain initially interpreted the color of the "hole" as an accent color you might have at the toe of your shoes.
Had I seen the shoe in the configuration you're referring to, I would have had the same reaction. In fact, such a position would be offensive to all reasonable persons. The mental image alone is revolting
why did that get a lower rating than ian's secure knot?
Is it the security/convenience ratio?
security=1/convenience
EDIT: Wait! I didn't notice this:
"Now, simply pull the loops to tighten the knot. The whole twisted mess of the previous drawing will rearrange itself into exactly the same finished knot as my Ian's Secure Shoelace Knot."
Is it the security/convenience ratio?
security=1/convenience
EDIT: Wait! I didn't notice this:
"Now, simply pull the loops to tighten the knot. The whole twisted mess of the previous drawing will rearrange itself into exactly the same finished knot as my Ian's Secure Shoelace Knot."
oh man Ian's Shoelace Site is such a beautiful piece of what the web should be.
It's gotten a refresh since the last time I saw it. I didn't recognize it at first but the writing style is pretty unmistakable. https://web.archive.org/web/20181102121447/https://www.fiegg...
Both unexpected and welcome to see this site on here.
I had never learned how to tie my shoes and some day decided to look it up online. I taught myself the Ian Knot from the pictures on the site and have been using it since. That was over ten years ago and it's still the only way I know to tie my shoes. Thank you, Ian.
I had never learned how to tie my shoes and some day decided to look it up online. I taught myself the Ian Knot from the pictures on the site and have been using it since. That was over ten years ago and it's still the only way I know to tie my shoes. Thank you, Ian.
This is why I switched to only wearing sneakers that don't have laces. The fact that there's a whole site dedicated to tying your shoes properly tells you everything you need to know and yet this is largely a solved problem. You might think I look childish wearing velco/slip-on shoes all the time but I get a lot of compliments on my Adidas and my Metcons.
And Velcro has another advantage: you can tighten any segment of the shoe quickly. I really ought to use it.
I too prefer this approach tbh. Since a few years I've only used shoes or sneakers with no laces. At the beginning I though that I was going to have problems with it, but all has been good.
I just leave my sneakers tied and use a shoe horn. Super fast and doesn't destroy the heel tab.
Shoelaces can be done without using plastic. Plastic-free velcro seems at least unlikely.
This, though I recommend merril's or a generic brand that does the same kind of outdoorsy slip on.
You can also wear a fleece everywhere. It's light and comfortable. But it just doesn't look as good and people will judge you differently for it in some contexts.
Clothing is just as much about comfort as it is about impressions.
Clothing is just as much about comfort as it is about impressions.
>The fact that there's a whole site dedicated to tying your shoes properly tells you everything you need to know
Similarly: half of the top 10 most-voted questions on StackOverflow are about Git.
Similarly: half of the top 10 most-voted questions on StackOverflow are about Git.
Related, from the "most people don't understand their shoes" file: it's pretty rare to see a proper heel lock on athletic shoes: https://www.gearpatrol.com/fitness/a696423/extra-lace-eyelet...
The explanation here is excellent, but the same site has an even more useful page that’s easy to overlook: the “granny knot analyser” that will tell you if your current knot is secure or not.
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknotanalyser.htm
What a wonderful website.
https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknotanalyser.htm
What a wonderful website.
Today I learned I've been tying my shoes wrong for > 30 years. Thanks for posting this, Tomte!
i went through this process several years ago. it was initially easy to force myself into correct technique, as "do the opposite of what feels natural" stably led me down the right knot path. then after maybe six weeks or so the correct way felt natural and i had to burn cycles deciding if this was the good "feels natural" or the bad "feels natural". a year or two after that i was back to tying them without thinking, correctly now.
I was hoping to learn the same, but no, turns out I've been doing it right. I can blame my shoelaces now, correct?
(Ever since the pandemic began I've only worn sandals or a certain pair of sneakers with very round laces. Maybe round laces stick worse?)
EDIT: Looks like I should try the surgeon's knot.
(Ever since the pandemic began I've only worn sandals or a certain pair of sneakers with very round laces. Maybe round laces stick worse?)
EDIT: Looks like I should try the surgeon's knot.
Now do ties. :-) Wife made me re-tie kid's prom tie 5 or 6 times for pictures.
Here ya go: https://youtu.be/HXJx8j7JpKY
Did anyone have to fight the urge to print the flowchart and paste in your shoe?
Great site. Thank you.
Great site. Thank you.
Medlife Crisis has a great video on running a long term experiment comparing the two shoe tying methods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4R5--MpP0Q
It's pretty odd that Usain Bolt ties granny knots. As a runner, I use reef knots and I double tie, also, because at my slow speed I don't want to have to waste time retying! He could run a couple of 100m sprints in the time it would take me to fix my laces.
This may the only context in which my running can be compared with Bolt's!
This may the only context in which my running can be compared with Bolt's!
The proper knot to tie for shoes is a turquoise turtle, no question. I always laugh (on the inside) when I see shoe laces with crooked bows, and even more when I see them with the fabled "double knot" on top of a granny knot. There's an old saying, "If you don't know knots, you tie lots"
Speaking of unwanted knot behaviors, your headphones will knot in a pocket if you reel them up around your hand as usual, introducing a twisting moment to the wire. They will knot much less likely, if you fold them into a /\/\/\ shape instead without rotational moves. Not applicable to wireless earbuds.
That’s how I stow extension cords and water hoses; a bunch of loops to either side of a thick middle of parallel cylinders, hung on a peg. To stretch it back out, flop the lot on the ground, grab an end and pull. No twist was introduced, so it’s less likely to get bound up.
One of the best way to prevent cable knots is to use the over-under technique. It helps prevent knots, and lets you unravel a cable extremely fast. I learned it in the audio industry, but it works great for cables of any size. This is a good and straightforward tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yPcJD7RVuY
Great tip! I was taught that this method was called the "roadie wrap." Though I was shown that it's possible to achieve the rotation by rolling the cable between my thumb and index fingers.
The big difference between the roadie coil in your YouTube video, and the folding technique in the parent comment, is the radius of the tightest bend.
A roadie coil produces consistent loops, which are large-radius bends, aka gentle bends. This is what you want for electrical cable, especially high-quality expensive cables you want to last a long time. Tight-radius bends, aka kinks, can cause premature failure.
Folding is fine if the cord is extremely flexible, or for rope.
Folding done right produces no twists at all about the axis of the line, which is ideal. That’s why it is the preferred method for packaging rock climbing ropes. The roadie coil produces alternating twists that mostly cancel each other out once it is fully uncoiled.
A roadie coil produces consistent loops, which are large-radius bends, aka gentle bends. This is what you want for electrical cable, especially high-quality expensive cables you want to last a long time. Tight-radius bends, aka kinks, can cause premature failure.
Folding is fine if the cord is extremely flexible, or for rope.
Folding done right produces no twists at all about the axis of the line, which is ideal. That’s why it is the preferred method for packaging rock climbing ropes. The roadie coil produces alternating twists that mostly cancel each other out once it is fully uncoiled.
I've once learned a method to fold my headphones cable that I cannot find anywhere online. You fold the cable in half, twist the cable lengthwise (imagine turning in one direction on a swing), fold the cable in half again and then twist in the other direction (which will mostly happen automatically, because of the tension). I don't remember the last time I had to untwist my headphones cable.
My favorite shoelace knot is berluti knot.
https://www.bestshoe99.in/how-to-tie-shoelaces/
It is symmetrical, it looks beautiful, it takes about as much time to tie and it has exactly zero chance of untying itself.
It has never failed me since I learned it.
https://www.bestshoe99.in/how-to-tie-shoelaces/
It is symmetrical, it looks beautiful, it takes about as much time to tie and it has exactly zero chance of untying itself.
It has never failed me since I learned it.
Ha! This is how I was taught to tie my boots as a kid. I had no idea there was a specific name for the knot.
The Berluti knot looks a lot like "Ian's secure knot" mentioned in other threads: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
It is also the same as the Turquoise Turtle knot, mentioned by Brian Toss in his great book, "The Rigger's Apprentice". He discovered it in a clothing store of that name.
The Berluti knot traces back into European aristocracy.
Ian's secure knot neglects to tuck one of the loose ends - it's not as secure.
The Berluti knot traces back into European aristocracy.
Ian's secure knot neglects to tuck one of the loose ends - it's not as secure.
I have The Complete Rigger's Apprentice on my bookshelf.
The Turquise Turtle Knot is described on page 357 and it is similar, but not the same as Berluti knot.
The Turquise Turtle Knot is described on page 357 and it is similar, but not the same as Berluti knot.
Slightly different. And also covered on Ian's Shoelace Site: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/berluti-knot.htm
So having immediately tried this knot, I cannot get it to lay with the laces to the side like that. Mine turns vertical. My first assumption was that I was making a granny knot, but it doesn't matter which way around I knot the second knot.
Is this just a failing of this knot or am I doing something wrong?
Is this just a failing of this knot or am I doing something wrong?
You are making berluti version of granny knot or granny version of berluti knot (which may very well be the same thing but I just can't decide how to name this correctly).
Well yes, that much I figured, but that happens no matter which way around I tuck the loops. I'm looking more specifically for what to do differently to not end up with a granny variation.
The idea of correct version is that the loops (ears) come out parallel to the part that is horizontal under tension.
I don't remember how to tie the knot. Instead when I am in the middle of tying it I imagine which way the ears will come out and if it will not go the correct way I take the other direction (there is only two possible ways to tie it).
I don't remember how to tie the knot. Instead when I am in the middle of tying it I imagine which way the ears will come out and if it will not go the correct way I take the other direction (there is only two possible ways to tie it).
That’s the one I use. Comes in handy coaching youth sports. Only problem is you end up tying everybody’s shoes until you teach them all this knot. One of my players taught her dad and his mind was blown.
Teach them to tuck shoelace under the already tied lace. Doesn't look nice but makes perfect sense when you are running or playing games. I learned this when I started running long distances and laces become distracting (as practically anything when you do upwards of 20kms).
It's tough to understand verbal descriptions of knot tying so I never bothered to try to figure out if I was tying granny knots or not. Thanks to the granny knot analyzer, now I know that I've been doing it correctly: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknotanalyser.htm
The word “granny knot” is ageist and offensive. I can’t believe I’m seeing it here.
It also reenforces the idea that certain knots are “better” or “appropriate”, upholding and propagating white supremacy.
We should rename this cultural atrocity and outdated term as “the people’s knot”.
It also reenforces the idea that certain knots are “better” or “appropriate”, upholding and propagating white supremacy.
We should rename this cultural atrocity and outdated term as “the people’s knot”.
From your other comments it's clear that you're trolling. If you troll HN like this again we will ban you.
Please stop posting ideological flamebait comments to HN generally. We've asked you repeatedly, and when accounts ignore such requests, we eventually ban them. I don't want to ban you because your good comments are good, but protecting the site from hellfire has to take precedence, so please stop that.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Please stop posting ideological flamebait comments to HN generally. We've asked you repeatedly, and when accounts ignore such requests, we eventually ban them. I don't want to ban you because your good comments are good, but protecting the site from hellfire has to take precedence, so please stop that.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Random terminology question:
While I was aware of the term "Reef knot", that knot is commonly, almost exclusively, called a "Square knot" in my (midwestern American) dialect of English.
Is this a British thing?
While I was aware of the term "Reef knot", that knot is commonly, almost exclusively, called a "Square knot" in my (midwestern American) dialect of English.
Is this a British thing?
No. "reef knot" is a sailor's term. "square knot" is actually an overhand knot tied in the end of a line. "reef knot" (properly a "bend"), is the knot used to reef sails. The common shoe-lace bow is a "double bow reef knot" or "double slippery reef knot".
Reef, bowline, and figure-eight are the three knots you must be able to tie behind your back to pass a basic sailing class.
Reef, bowline, and figure-eight are the three knots you must be able to tie behind your back to pass a basic sailing class.
Hmm, ok, I'll take your word for this as sailing terminology. I learned my knots in the Boy Scouts, and can knock those three off blindfolded, if not necessarily behind my back!
I will reiterate though, that the reef knot is called a square knot where I come from. Misnomer? I guess, that's what everyone calls it, an overhand stop knot is an overhand or just a "knot" actually.
I will reiterate though, that the reef knot is called a square knot where I come from. Misnomer? I guess, that's what everyone calls it, an overhand stop knot is an overhand or just a "knot" actually.
Among American sailors you will find "reef knot" dominates: it is the knot used to "reef" or diminish a sail's useful area. Among Boy Scouts (and no offense intended here) you will find the term "square knot" dominates.
Boy Scouts being where I learned my knots: none taken!
Scouts, but not in the US, was where I learnt it as "reef knot", it's pretty much the go-to knot there, to the point where I recall it making up part of a lot of designs on badges and such.
It was a reef knot in the Scouts in the UK also. And a granny knot was a reef know where the sequence was repeated (RoL/RoL or LoR/LoR rather than LoR/RoL IIRC.)
[deleted]
I've used alternative knots since high school, but about five years ago I woke up with no recollection of any knot except for the Balanced/Granny Knot. It was as though the knowledge had been wiped from my brain despite years of daily use. All that was left was the traditional method, which I used for a couple weeks until I learned the Ian Knot, which is my happily ever after.
I don’t know if it’s just that complex 3D topology is hard or what, but those blue-yellow knot diagrams have never helped me understand a knot.
My life hack was to only buy slip-on shoes.
it's that shoelace site. i first heard of that site via youtuber mathloger.
After reading this website that does such a deep dive into an every day thing I rarely think about, I feel insufficient for just about everything else. I wish I as much about any subject as this fellow does about granny knots.
So for me the granny knot's instability made sense after I started trying to tie square knots. When you screw those up it becomes pretty obvious.
If you want a conspiracy theory about it...
I believe that power is passed along selectively to children, to help decide who the future elite are.... the "lucky" half are taught how to correctly tie their shoes... the other half end up with granny knots, which then signals to the elite this person is not one of them.
I was one of the granny knot population, always having to stop and re-tie my shoes... fortunately I learned the error of my ways about 3 years ago.
I believe that power is passed along selectively to children, to help decide who the future elite are.... the "lucky" half are taught how to correctly tie their shoes... the other half end up with granny knots, which then signals to the elite this person is not one of them.
I was one of the granny knot population, always having to stop and re-tie my shoes... fortunately I learned the error of my ways about 3 years ago.
Keep them peasants looking at the dirt!
Lol. How could this was invented by him? I learned this 45 years ago in a remote area in mainland China.
I learned this knot 45 years ago in China and passed the knot to my children. Not sure how Ivan can claim he invented the knot.
I think you're being downvoted because the title of the post is The "Granny Knot", and your wording sounds like you're saying Ian claims he invented the "Granny Knot".
But obviously you're talking about the "Ian knot". My wife taught me this knot about 20 years ago. She grew up in China and had been tying her shoelaces this way since primary school.
Ian claims to have invented the knot in 1982. Now it's conceivable that the "Ian knot" took the world by storm and spreaded to China quickly, but seeing it's the pre-Internet era, I highly doubt it. I myself had never heard of it until I saw her do it.
So it's likely Ian independently discovered the knot, more so than him being the first person to ever come up with it.
Did you come up with this knot yourself 45 years ago, or did you learn it from someone else?
BTW I upvoted you.
But obviously you're talking about the "Ian knot". My wife taught me this knot about 20 years ago. She grew up in China and had been tying her shoelaces this way since primary school.
Ian claims to have invented the knot in 1982. Now it's conceivable that the "Ian knot" took the world by storm and spreaded to China quickly, but seeing it's the pre-Internet era, I highly doubt it. I myself had never heard of it until I saw her do it.
So it's likely Ian independently discovered the knot, more so than him being the first person to ever come up with it.
Did you come up with this knot yourself 45 years ago, or did you learn it from someone else?
BTW I upvoted you.
I'm a little blown away by how over-complicated this page is. The flowchart...
When I was in med school, they taught us how to tie square knots and had us practice with sutures. They even had a technique for tying the knots just using one hand.
Found this exact page about a decade ago and it was life changing, my shoes never come untied anymore.
I've had a theory about this for a while - ever since that crazy Ted talk about tying shoes the "correct" way.
Because I always start right over left (or vice versa, I can't remember), my shoe laces never have that weird vertical orientation. My son, however, always has this problem.
I think it's a generational thing! Parents show their kids how to tie knots, and they always do it from the front, so each generation sees a mirrored version of the way their parents tie knots. So it goes, backs me forth throughput the years...
Just a theory, but I'm sticking to it.
Because I always start right over left (or vice versa, I can't remember), my shoe laces never have that weird vertical orientation. My son, however, always has this problem.
I think it's a generational thing! Parents show their kids how to tie knots, and they always do it from the front, so each generation sees a mirrored version of the way their parents tie knots. So it goes, backs me forth throughput the years...
Just a theory, but I'm sticking to it.
i feel like crying that i don't even know how to the my laces properly and that i just now discovered that. Thanks tom and ian! I need a tissue now... Please tell me i'm not alone.
I knew instinctively how to tie a Granny knot from a young age.
Later, as a boy scout I learned how to tie the alternative square knot, which looks cool and symmetrical and offers the tremendous advantage of being easily untied.
One of the great small lessons in life.
Later, as a boy scout I learned how to tie the alternative square knot, which looks cool and symmetrical and offers the tremendous advantage of being easily untied.
One of the great small lessons in life.
I didn't know about this stuff at all until some years ago. I learned about it via Japanese culture. An unbalanced knob is 縦結び (tatemusubi: "vertical knot", whereas the balanced one is 横結び (yokomusubi: "sideways knot").
I tied my shoelaces with a fisherman's knot. This only has to be done once per shoe for life. I never have to untie them. Just slide on and off. The bottom of the shoes wear out before the laces ever come loose.
Doesn't work as well for boots though, and tying a fisherman's knot while wearing snow gloves is a pain.
Doesn't work as well for boots though, and tying a fisherman's knot while wearing snow gloves is a pain.
I'm 44. I've been a sea cadet, a rock climber, and a boy scout, so I have plenty of experience handling ropes and tying knots.
I learned how to tie my shoes correctly 2 years ago. I've been doing wrong my whole life.
I learned how to tie my shoes correctly 2 years ago. I've been doing wrong my whole life.
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I've been a fan of Ian's Shoelace Site for over twenty years.
Tying your shoelaces is "lost technology." When I was in first grade nearly everyone could tie their shoes properly.
Today, I can go weeks and not see anyone in public with their laces in the proper bow knot. (This includes professional athletes.)
When did we collectively lose the ability to dress ourselves? And why?
/Acey
Tying your shoelaces is "lost technology." When I was in first grade nearly everyone could tie their shoes properly.
Today, I can go weeks and not see anyone in public with their laces in the proper bow knot. (This includes professional athletes.)
When did we collectively lose the ability to dress ourselves? And why?
/Acey
My kids are 7 and 8 years old and can't tie laces because they never had shoes with laces.
(We've taught them how to tie laces on multiple occasions but it's pointless if they don't have shoes where they need to tie them)
(We've taught them how to tie laces on multiple occasions but it's pointless if they don't have shoes where they need to tie them)
Hilariously, my grandma was the one who taught me this when I was a child. I used to always tie double knots, and then take my shoes off without untying, and the double knot would be really hard to undo. She taught me that tying the first step in the opposite direction, the single knot doesn't come undone. Happy to see this on HN :)
It's all in how you start the knot and how you do the swoop. Learning to do the swoop differently is hard. Much easier to retrain yourself in doing the correct start. I've taught several adults how to tie their shoes.
Instead of doing Left-Over-Right, Do Right-Over-Left (or vice versa if you do your swoop differently than me).
I personally do not like the "Ian Knot". It requires you to take both hands off from the first cross, which results in looser laces.
__________
For those that want security without struggling to remove a double knot, this is the method I learned in the military:
Tie a simple not at the end of each lace just above the straight plastic piece. These simple knots never get untied.
Tie your boots with whatever method you normally use.
Pull the loops as big as they will become, the small knots at the end of the laces will stop at the center knot.
(Optional) Tuck your longer than normal loops into your boot so you don't look like an idiot. This gives a clean look in all footware, not just boots.
The laces will likely never come undone, and you won't have to struggle to remove a double knot.
Instead of doing Left-Over-Right, Do Right-Over-Left (or vice versa if you do your swoop differently than me).
I personally do not like the "Ian Knot". It requires you to take both hands off from the first cross, which results in looser laces.
__________
For those that want security without struggling to remove a double knot, this is the method I learned in the military:
Tie a simple not at the end of each lace just above the straight plastic piece. These simple knots never get untied.
Tie your boots with whatever method you normally use.
Pull the loops as big as they will become, the small knots at the end of the laces will stop at the center knot.
(Optional) Tuck your longer than normal loops into your boot so you don't look like an idiot. This gives a clean look in all footware, not just boots.
The laces will likely never come undone, and you won't have to struggle to remove a double knot.
It could just be my imagination but I have noticed that Un-balanced “Granny Knot”s are less likely to get caught in pedals and chains when riding a bicycle since the loops don't stick out as far to the sides.
It did have me so concerned that I even had to check.
Turn's out I'm unable to create a Granny Know without putting a lot of effort into it. Only if I change the first stage I'm able to do it.
Turn's out I'm unable to create a Granny Know without putting a lot of effort into it. Only if I change the first stage I'm able to do it.
Seeing the knot-making process in a flow diagram is certainly interesting, seeing that we (humans) can tie certain knots with our eyes closed.
When did we learn this behaviour? Does it indicate higher thought/intelligence? We teach our children to tie knots at a very young age, so knots must be important right? Which other animal can tie knots? Is knot making just another form of weaving?
And lets say we do build an AI that resembles human nature/consciousness closely, can it tie knots? Maybe an AI is only valid if it can introspect, love, hate, philosophize, do math and.. tie knots! What about knitting/crocheting?
Maybe weaving (knot-making/knitting etc) is/was just as important as discovering/understanding fire. Imagine our primate ancestors, just chilling in a jungle somewhere and weaved some pieces of plant fibers together and some lightbulb went on in their heads.. and they continued making them and adjusting them and found useful uses for them (or maybe they just enjoyed the pattern or the effect of pulling one string and the whole knot comes undone - Wow!).
Knots sure are interesting!
When did we learn this behaviour? Does it indicate higher thought/intelligence? We teach our children to tie knots at a very young age, so knots must be important right? Which other animal can tie knots? Is knot making just another form of weaving?
And lets say we do build an AI that resembles human nature/consciousness closely, can it tie knots? Maybe an AI is only valid if it can introspect, love, hate, philosophize, do math and.. tie knots! What about knitting/crocheting?
Maybe weaving (knot-making/knitting etc) is/was just as important as discovering/understanding fire. Imagine our primate ancestors, just chilling in a jungle somewhere and weaved some pieces of plant fibers together and some lightbulb went on in their heads.. and they continued making them and adjusting them and found useful uses for them (or maybe they just enjoyed the pattern or the effect of pulling one string and the whole knot comes undone - Wow!).
Knots sure are interesting!
He should not have used 'granny knot' as the name of the bad shoe-tying method. A granny knot is a reef knot tied wrong, not the shoe tie, he even mentions it in the article. It would have been more appropriate to call it a 'granny tie' I think. I'm outraged. This is violence.
The granny knot is caused by the starter knot and main knot not agreeing with each other. If you find that you do granny knots, as I did, then you'll probably find it's quite hard to reverse the direction of your main knot. It's essentially learning to tie your laces again! It's much easier to reverse the starter knot. This alone will fix your knot.
Anyone else tie their shoes once, just enough to fit but just enough to slide on and off? I tuck the exposed parts back under the laced part to keep them safe and out of the way.
I cannot imagine having to tie shoes several times a week let alone several times a day. Seems like a waste of time.
I cannot imagine having to tie shoes several times a week let alone several times a day. Seems like a waste of time.
When I was a kid I hated the fact that I always was the slowest kid because I had laces and all the other kids had velcro shoes.
Now I just don't care. Sure it takes 15 seconds to tie them but at some point I just stopped caring about those 15 seconds.
Now I just don't care. Sure it takes 15 seconds to tie them but at some point I just stopped caring about those 15 seconds.
The ordinary shoelace knot is the 'slippery square knot'. It's 'slippery' because its tied with a loop so you can pull the free end to release. And it's 'square' because its symmetrical when tied right.
There are three ways to tie a square knot wrong. One of them is the 'Granny'. I don't remember the names of the others.
Anyway its the reason our climbing staff teach to never tie any climbing rope with a square knot - because you have three ways to kill yourself. Tied wrong it can just 'walk off the rope'.
There are three ways to tie a square knot wrong. One of them is the 'Granny'. I don't remember the names of the others.
Anyway its the reason our climbing staff teach to never tie any climbing rope with a square knot - because you have three ways to kill yourself. Tied wrong it can just 'walk off the rope'.
I have a knot book that refers to these types of knots as "exploding" knots. They are essentially the same as the original knot, but the final tuck is done with a bight to make untying it easily.
I had not heard it called that before. I got 'slippery' from Ashley. His book is a gem but I imagine you know that :)
Disclaimer: I was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout who learned a number of knots. Fishing also helps by necessity.
FYI: ABOK #80, #186, #464, #1206 are called Granny knots but not the Granny of shoe knots.
#1212 is the conventional shoe knot, #1215 - #1219 are alternate versions. I don't see a Granny shoe knot except maybe #1220 as a parcel knot, perhaps because it's "wrong" for the cosmetics of shoes. Granny knots were/are a derisive term for dangerous or improper knots. IIRC right rectangular prism parcels were wrapped in brown paper like a Christmas present but then wrapped once in twine, twisted 90 degrees underneath, wrapped again perpendicularly, and then finished with a Granny shoe/parcel knot at a 45 degree? angle. I guess one could also use other knots, but they maybe more difficult to untie.
https://archive.org/details/TheAshleyBookOfKnots has a bazillion knots categorized and with their uses.
FYI: ABOK #80, #186, #464, #1206 are called Granny knots but not the Granny of shoe knots.
#1212 is the conventional shoe knot, #1215 - #1219 are alternate versions. I don't see a Granny shoe knot except maybe #1220 as a parcel knot, perhaps because it's "wrong" for the cosmetics of shoes. Granny knots were/are a derisive term for dangerous or improper knots. IIRC right rectangular prism parcels were wrapped in brown paper like a Christmas present but then wrapped once in twine, twisted 90 degrees underneath, wrapped again perpendicularly, and then finished with a Granny shoe/parcel knot at a 45 degree? angle. I guess one could also use other knots, but they maybe more difficult to untie.
https://archive.org/details/TheAshleyBookOfKnots has a bazillion knots categorized and with their uses.
Am I the only one who does double granny knots? Been doing so since I first learned to tie my shoes, never ever had a shoe come untied. Sure it takes an additional .5s to tie, and perhaps an additional 3s to untie, but why risk it?
Because one better knot will do!
This is a genuinely nifty article, in how it goes into clear and well-explained details.
With that said, sometimes it’s the fault of the shoelaces themselves. Loops that are too large (overly long shoelaces) can snag on items in the environment (twigs, branches, etc.) to become forcibly untied, and some very specific kinds of shoelaces can be too slick and/or too stiff to keep a knot firmly tied (Canadian DoD shoelaces for boots are both very stiff and quite slick when brand new, they need to be broken in to hold fast; some dress shoes have similar laces, albeit stupidly thin).
With that said, sometimes it’s the fault of the shoelaces themselves. Loops that are too large (overly long shoelaces) can snag on items in the environment (twigs, branches, etc.) to become forcibly untied, and some very specific kinds of shoelaces can be too slick and/or too stiff to keep a knot firmly tied (Canadian DoD shoelaces for boots are both very stiff and quite slick when brand new, they need to be broken in to hold fast; some dress shoes have similar laces, albeit stupidly thin).
Anything you do regularly or daily, it’s worth spending a few minutes to work on your form, sooner is better before the inconvenience becomes the norm.
I do this with shoe laces, more recently with my new bike lock. Was kind of weird and slow and clumsy for me to open and close, so I spent 5 minutes figuring out the feel of the key and the rotating mechanism and now I can do it quickly and easily with one hand (45s->10s).
It amazes me how people don’t slow down to figure out the little things. One of my ex-girlfriends would always struggle to unlock the door to our old apartment. It was a janky lock. Coming home late, drunk, in the cold, in the rain, and she’d sit there for 2-3 minutes getting frustrated trying to get it open. The first time I unlocked it I was like “oh, this lock sucks, let’s see how it opens”. You insert the key, but it goes too far - the cylinder won’t rotate unless the key is backed out about 1mm from where it bottoms out. So, just insert the key, and press on the lock with your pointer finger as you apply gentle torque and it’ll open easily. Takes less than 5s, every time. I tried to show her this and explain the process, but she didn’t have the patience - “I know how to open a lock!” So I let it rest.
Baffles me though, some people would rather spend 30m/week fiddling with something that 5 minutes of deliberate attention would solve once and for all.
I do this with shoe laces, more recently with my new bike lock. Was kind of weird and slow and clumsy for me to open and close, so I spent 5 minutes figuring out the feel of the key and the rotating mechanism and now I can do it quickly and easily with one hand (45s->10s).
It amazes me how people don’t slow down to figure out the little things. One of my ex-girlfriends would always struggle to unlock the door to our old apartment. It was a janky lock. Coming home late, drunk, in the cold, in the rain, and she’d sit there for 2-3 minutes getting frustrated trying to get it open. The first time I unlocked it I was like “oh, this lock sucks, let’s see how it opens”. You insert the key, but it goes too far - the cylinder won’t rotate unless the key is backed out about 1mm from where it bottoms out. So, just insert the key, and press on the lock with your pointer finger as you apply gentle torque and it’ll open easily. Takes less than 5s, every time. I tried to show her this and explain the process, but she didn’t have the patience - “I know how to open a lock!” So I let it rest.
Baffles me though, some people would rather spend 30m/week fiddling with something that 5 minutes of deliberate attention would solve once and for all.
YES! This is going to FINALLY win me the war of how to properly tie shoelaces in my home. My spouse has continuously taught our kids the 'bunny ears' method while i battle to teach them the 'right' way and break this poor tying habit. Thank you OP!
Thank to OP for posting this and thus educating others about the “Granny Knot” problem in relation to shoelaces. All of your comments have been quite fascinating! I'm pleased that so many of you have also learned a couple of my own knots. The “Granny Knot” info can be life-changing, while the “Ian Knot” and “Ian's Secure Knot” can both be “life-improving”.
[0] https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm