The Amish as a source of tech-savvy guidance(psyche.co)
psyche.co
The Amish as a source of tech-savvy guidance
https://psyche.co/ideas/to-be-more-tech-savvy-borrow-these-strategies-from-the-amish
128 comments
It's more than that. Their very existence is predicated on subsidence within a larger society that repudiates their values. A society that actually lives their values would be both out competed and quite possibly have lost their territory to those willing to move forward.
Their attitude towards technology is as lacking in virtue as absolute pacifism. Pacifism that can only exist through others violence isn't a rejection of violence it is merely abdicating responsibility for deciding when to use that violence to others. In a way its more odious than violence.
Their attitude towards technology is as lacking in virtue as absolute pacifism. Pacifism that can only exist through others violence isn't a rejection of violence it is merely abdicating responsibility for deciding when to use that violence to others. In a way its more odious than violence.
> In a way its more odious than violence.
You have very little understanding of the Amish perspective. If your assumptions of their beliefs lead you to a conclusion that their pacifism is more odious than violence, it should be a red flag that perhaps you are mistaken in your assumptions.
Their security, in their view, rests with God. The Bible demonstrates repeatedly that, at times, God uses evil men to keep other evil men from harming His people. For example, God used the evil Babylonians to conquer the evil Assyrians, to the benefit of his chosen people who were commanded to keep a low profile and stay out of it. Likewise, the evil Persians conquered the evil Babylonians, leading to the release of the Jews from captivity: once again, the Jews in captivity were to lay low and let God seek vengeance in the Babylonians.
The Amish are quite aware that one group of evil people (let’s say cops and the state) are doing evil and violent things to another group of evil people (namely, criminals.) The Amish stay out of it, keep a low profile, and rely on Providence.
In short, their views are more subtle than you think. Instead of concluding they are ‘odious’ you would do well to understand them.
You have very little understanding of the Amish perspective. If your assumptions of their beliefs lead you to a conclusion that their pacifism is more odious than violence, it should be a red flag that perhaps you are mistaken in your assumptions.
Their security, in their view, rests with God. The Bible demonstrates repeatedly that, at times, God uses evil men to keep other evil men from harming His people. For example, God used the evil Babylonians to conquer the evil Assyrians, to the benefit of his chosen people who were commanded to keep a low profile and stay out of it. Likewise, the evil Persians conquered the evil Babylonians, leading to the release of the Jews from captivity: once again, the Jews in captivity were to lay low and let God seek vengeance in the Babylonians.
The Amish are quite aware that one group of evil people (let’s say cops and the state) are doing evil and violent things to another group of evil people (namely, criminals.) The Amish stay out of it, keep a low profile, and rely on Providence.
In short, their views are more subtle than you think. Instead of concluding they are ‘odious’ you would do well to understand them.
The problem is that their god doesn't exist any more than the ancient Egyptian's gods or the ancient Greeks gods. There isn't any such thing as divine providence. The losers of history aren't here to give voice to their opinions and the winners desperately want to believe their life and times are the result of their virtue instead of chance.
The Amish in America are able to live their life as is because Americans have absolutely been willing and able to do violence to would be conquerors and aggressors not because of virtue and providence.
The Amish in America are able to live their life as is because Americans have absolutely been willing and able to do violence to would be conquerors and aggressors not because of virtue and providence.
You are basically acknowledging that technological development is a force that happens outside of our control, and that we are forced to keep up lest we be conquered by our neighbors. This is true, and it's what I believe also, but I don't see how you come to the conclusion that there is anything desirable or moral about this state of affairs.
Without us keeping the Amish way of life "subsidized", perhaps they would indeed have perished. And they would have gone willing, due to their belief system. It's remarkable that you can try to spin not being willing to participate in the technological-industrial system as "more odious than violence".
Without us keeping the Amish way of life "subsidized", perhaps they would indeed have perished. And they would have gone willing, due to their belief system. It's remarkable that you can try to spin not being willing to participate in the technological-industrial system as "more odious than violence".
Absolute pacifism is more odious than violence because violence in the course of human history has been from the perspective of an individual player been inevitable and necessary to prevent subjugation and murder.
It is the statement that I know violence may be needed in some occasions but in order that I may imagine my own hands clean I am going to abstain from making the choice forcing someone else to. It neither stops your fellows from becoming nazis and hurting others nor being marched to concentration camps.
The simplest moral test one can apply is what would happen if everyone applied the same thought rules for behavior. It would be great right. More realistically what would happen if most people did? If they weren't willing to apply at least minimal defensive violence then a minority of defectors enslaves everyone else.
It is the statement that I know violence may be needed in some occasions but in order that I may imagine my own hands clean I am going to abstain from making the choice forcing someone else to. It neither stops your fellows from becoming nazis and hurting others nor being marched to concentration camps.
The simplest moral test one can apply is what would happen if everyone applied the same thought rules for behavior. It would be great right. More realistically what would happen if most people did? If they weren't willing to apply at least minimal defensive violence then a minority of defectors enslaves everyone else.
The other 2 replies notwithstanding, I find your comment very interesting. Reminds me of "memory leak", the definition of which seems so completely backwards ... at first. As to whether absolute pacifism is more odious than violence, well, that's something to think about too. Hmmm, if everyone was A.P., the bar for "violence" would shift way downward, then ...
If everyone did yes but a small number of defectors could easily destroy everyone else as the proportion of defectors goes down it gets more and more effective its not a stable state.
This is a beautiful point of view…. Now I’d like to meet some Amish people.
Yes, well, when you live with them as next door neighbors you find that they have as many angels and scoundrels, as many wise and as many fools as any other group. The practicalities of their life are different, but they are people like you and me — different priorities.
Come to Ohio campgrounds in the summer weekends, always have a Amish family selling baked goods, they're usually pretty friendly and open to talking. And their baking tastes amazing.
Their baking does taste amazing.
But Amish women are often employed at local farmers markets to add local color and entice tourists into buying non-Amish bakery goods.
That the Amish, a fairly closed culture, are objects of tourism, has always struck me as pretty damn weird.
While it may reflect a nostalgia or longing for a simpler life, I know I wouldn't last long keeping a working farm alive. Plain lives are hard work.
But Amish women are often employed at local farmers markets to add local color and entice tourists into buying non-Amish bakery goods.
That the Amish, a fairly closed culture, are objects of tourism, has always struck me as pretty damn weird.
While it may reflect a nostalgia or longing for a simpler life, I know I wouldn't last long keeping a working farm alive. Plain lives are hard work.
I wouldnt call the Amish objects of tourism, they set up shop where people already are. And it's not them, just their cooking. I don't think anyone thinks about them at all, frankly, outside of that. I remember a while ago there was a fad for prominently Amish branded/built electric heaters, and I thought that was very strange.
Its not so hard to "turn off" a landline. Turn down the ringer. If you have a cordless phone - unplug the base.
Wasn’t so easy in the past. They were often hardwired. This is one of the things Amish people were against: bringing electricity into the home. Battery powered devices were okay.
The phone itself was hardwired into the wall? TIL
You couldn't sell a cover intended for phone books, a shoulder-rest intended for AT&T (well, Bell Electric / Western Bell) handsets, or an answering machine that would be connected to phone-system wiring.
It was a pretty brutal monopoly.
It was a pretty brutal monopoly.
Ma Bell kept and iron grip on the entire system until the Carterphone decision created a crack in their stranglehold. This is why when you see modems in old movies they have this crazy setup where you put the handset into a pair of rubber cones (acoustic couplers) because you weren't allowed to plug anything directly into the phone lines. You didn't even own the phone, you leased it from the phone company.
Old habits die hard: getting internet from AT&T ime still requires leasing their 'modem' for a monthly cost while cable providers let you bring your own device to avoid the monthly fee.
This is not true - I had AT&T DSL from 2009-2014 and when I signed up they didn't offer a modem rental of any sorts, they required everyone to bring their own modem, but they did offer them for sale.
I was really short on money at the time and didn't have a DSL modem, I would have preferred to rent the modem but they said that wasn't an option - they could only sell me one.
I was really short on money at the time and didn't have a DSL modem, I would have preferred to rent the modem but they said that wasn't an option - they could only sell me one.
I've checked them out for the last 4 years while contemplating a move from Spectrum and every time, on checkout, there was the $10/month non-removable fee for renting the modem with no opt-out. This is in central Texas.
Oh yeah, those hardware leasing fees are a goldmine for companies. Every so often you see a story about some old timer that is still paying for the hardware lease on their landline phone and someone does the math to discover that they've paid tens of thousands of dollars over the years to lease hardware that costs $25 new.
The hardware they are leasing costs more than $25 new, more like $100. Sure you can buy a phone for $10 at the store, but the phones people leased where a lot higher quality (drop one off the desk and your floor is harmed not the phone) with a resulting higher price.
Before 1973, the phone company owned the wires right up to the phone on the wall, and often owned the phone as well.
Then the FCC mandated that customer-provided equipment be supported, assuming it met standards.
The RJ11 jack (and siblings, right up to the RJ45 for ethernet) came into widespread use after that.
Then the FCC mandated that customer-provided equipment be supported, assuming it met standards.
The RJ11 jack (and siblings, right up to the RJ45 for ethernet) came into widespread use after that.
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When I was a kid, some of our phones were hard wired, some used a giant 4-pin modular plug. RJ11 wasn't invented yet. Pepperidge Farm remembers... http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=336...
Where do batteries get their power?
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Where? My ex-girlfriend from 12 years ago came from Amish country and I got to meet some when we visited her family. Not a single house even had electricity. They wouldn't have been able to charge a mobile phone even if they had them. I remember mentioning some Italian food I liked for some reason or other while having dinner with them and none of them even knew what I was talking about. They knew about the existence of Italy, but none of the cuisine, not even basic names of dishes. They didn't exactly come across as people with exposure to the broader world afforded by remote communications technology.
I'm sure every community is different, though, as you would expect in the absence of widespread remote communications.
I'm sure every community is different, though, as you would expect in the absence of widespread remote communications.
> Not a single house even had electricity. They wouldn't have been able to charge a mobile phone even if they had them.
Some Amish communities allow electricity but not in the house. For example, they may accept electric milking equipment for cows, and have electricity to power that, but the electricity connection is only to the milking shed not to the residence. Or, they may own a business, and connect their business premises to electricity, but not the house.
Some Amish communities allow electricity but not in the house. For example, they may accept electric milking equipment for cows, and have electricity to power that, but the electricity connection is only to the milking shed not to the residence. Or, they may own a business, and connect their business premises to electricity, but not the house.
So, nobody in this family when they had rumspringa went out and ate pizza?
My reading of this really depends on the food involved. If it's something like bagna càuda the OP is being a little pretentious, if it's spaghetti I'm shocked.
yeah, hence my pizza quip.
The specific item I remember quite well because of the hubbub it caused (apparently, my astonishment was was considered insulting) was tiramisu. I don't think that is pretentious. It's available from common supermarkets, but this was a few miles outside of Gap, Pennsylvania. I don't know the area well, but Gap is only a town of a thousand people that likely doesn't have restaurants. Lancaster would have, given it has a college.
It's not like I got a detailed life history from these people, but if you ever get the chance, the level of culture shock can be striking. The biggest event of my time there was the neighbor's horse that was used to drive the plows sustaining an enormous gash on its front right leg. That effectively stopped work as people rushed to try and stitch it up. With no machinery, they're entirely reliant on horses to accomplish any meaningful field work, so a serious injury to one can severely impact yield.
They are prepared for that, though. Thanks to not making much in the way of purchases of virtually anything from the outside world, resources only flow in so they have a surplus of everything they need to last years if they need to hunker down. Any form of community wealth is entirely kept in the community, so there were apparently some fairly vast intergenerational savings built up.
So I don't know if the concern was really that being down a plow was going to have any material impact on anyone's ability to eat, but it was dramatic nonetheless. I didn't ask, but I got the impression the guy driving the plow was as distraught as he was because he considered the horse a friend. He seemed distressed by the amount of pain it was in.
It's not like I got a detailed life history from these people, but if you ever get the chance, the level of culture shock can be striking. The biggest event of my time there was the neighbor's horse that was used to drive the plows sustaining an enormous gash on its front right leg. That effectively stopped work as people rushed to try and stitch it up. With no machinery, they're entirely reliant on horses to accomplish any meaningful field work, so a serious injury to one can severely impact yield.
They are prepared for that, though. Thanks to not making much in the way of purchases of virtually anything from the outside world, resources only flow in so they have a surplus of everything they need to last years if they need to hunker down. Any form of community wealth is entirely kept in the community, so there were apparently some fairly vast intergenerational savings built up.
So I don't know if the concern was really that being down a plow was going to have any material impact on anyone's ability to eat, but it was dramatic nonetheless. I didn't ask, but I got the impression the guy driving the plow was as distraught as he was because he considered the horse a friend. He seemed distressed by the amount of pain it was in.
> apparently, my astonishment was considered insulting
If you feel astonished that someone is unfamiliar with something, that is an emotion best kept to yourself. I have learned this the hard way when people reacted poorly to my own expressions of astonishment.
Consider how someone might feel after hearing you say something like this:
"What??? You've never heard of tiramisu???"
(I'm not saying that's how you put it, just giving an example of an astonished reaction.)
Instead, meet them where they are and explain without judgment the unfamiliar term:
"Oh, tiramisu is a delicious Italian dessert. It's made with ladyfinger cookies, mascarpone, and coffee. Mascarpone is a soft creamy Italian cheese, often used in desserts, sometimes in savory dishes too. Would you like me to send you a tiramisu recipe? You will be in for a real treat!"
If you feel astonished that someone is unfamiliar with something, that is an emotion best kept to yourself. I have learned this the hard way when people reacted poorly to my own expressions of astonishment.
Consider how someone might feel after hearing you say something like this:
"What??? You've never heard of tiramisu???"
(I'm not saying that's how you put it, just giving an example of an astonished reaction.)
Instead, meet them where they are and explain without judgment the unfamiliar term:
"Oh, tiramisu is a delicious Italian dessert. It's made with ladyfinger cookies, mascarpone, and coffee. Mascarpone is a soft creamy Italian cheese, often used in desserts, sometimes in savory dishes too. Would you like me to send you a tiramisu recipe? You will be in for a real treat!"
+1 to the sibling suggestion of xkcd's "Lucky Ten Thousand", but also https://jvns.ca/blog/2017/04/27/no-feigning-surprise/
EDIT: Which, I see now, also quotes the xkcd strip.
EDIT: Which, I see now, also quotes the xkcd strip.
That is a great little article. I like the way it addresses how someone may feel that "I'm not feigning surprise, I really am surprised!"
As the article says, regardless of how you feel internally, choose the external action that is likely to give a happy interaction rather than an unhappy one.
As the article says, regardless of how you feel internally, choose the external action that is likely to give a happy interaction rather than an unhappy one.
Related: https://xkcd.com/1053/
Wait, is tiramisu really that common that everyone knows what it is?
I think you're expecting too much from others. I didn't grow up Amish, and although I did grow up in a non-assimilated insular religious community I've been living in Western secular society for about 10 years now.
The only Italian foods I can think of are pasta (I can name spaghetti and macaroni and lasagna and that's it) and pizza, which I knew of since childhood. Lately I've seen the word tiramisu around but I have no idea what it is. I think I saw it on a cake in a bakery and I assumed it was pretentious for chocolate but actually I don't know. I certainly didn't know it was Italian.
I think you're expecting too much from others. I didn't grow up Amish, and although I did grow up in a non-assimilated insular religious community I've been living in Western secular society for about 10 years now.
The only Italian foods I can think of are pasta (I can name spaghetti and macaroni and lasagna and that's it) and pizza, which I knew of since childhood. Lately I've seen the word tiramisu around but I have no idea what it is. I think I saw it on a cake in a bakery and I assumed it was pretentious for chocolate but actually I don't know. I certainly didn't know it was Italian.
Central Pennsylvania has a pretty substantial population of people of Italian heritage, and at least throughout the 90s and early 2000s, a great many of the restaurants in the area served Italian food. I used to eat Italian all the time, and I don't have a drop of Mediterranean blood in me. So, arguably, not knowing about Italian food in Lancaster county would be kind of a shocker.
Going a bit off-topic here, but as a tiramisu lover I feel compelled to say that if you like desserts and coffee, generally, you might consider trying some if the opportunity presents itself.
A bit more on topic, I'd generally agree that it's not so common as to be universal. I don't think I'd heard the word in any way that registered as significant before my mid-20s, and I'm certain I never tried it until my late 20s or early 30s. I grew up in the suburbs around Pittsburgh, PA with plenty of passable Italian restaurants -- but tiramisu simply wasn't a dessert people in my family ordered.
A bit more on topic, I'd generally agree that it's not so common as to be universal. I don't think I'd heard the word in any way that registered as significant before my mid-20s, and I'm certain I never tried it until my late 20s or early 30s. I grew up in the suburbs around Pittsburgh, PA with plenty of passable Italian restaurants -- but tiramisu simply wasn't a dessert people in my family ordered.
Tiramisu is a more recent invention than other well-known Italian or Italian-American foods, maybe 1970s.
I can't help thinking of the Tiramisu joke from Sleepless in Seattle https://the-take.com/watch/whats-the-meaning-of-the-tiramisu...
I wouldn't say that tiramisu is that common. I myself probably only learned of it 10 years ago or so. I can only think of one place that serves it, and I live in a very large city.
As for the animals, yes, it's pretty normal to bond with them and care about them, especially something like a horse.
It's definitely a completely different culture, though, no doubts about that.
As for the animals, yes, it's pretty normal to bond with them and care about them, especially something like a horse.
It's definitely a completely different culture, though, no doubts about that.
There’s no reply option for the answer to your question, so I’ll add mine here:
I’ve heard of tiramisu but can’t picture it, can’t remember tasting it, and my memories of food still feel robust. I’ve done more than my fair share of world travel, including all over Italy, and I’m generally adventurous with food.
> There’s no reply option for the answer to your question
HN tip: The reply link on new comments in a thread may not appear immediately. I think this is a measure to discourage heated back-and-forth replies.
But you can always click the "n minutes ago" link to open the individual comment and reply there.
HN tip: The reply link on new comments in a thread may not appear immediately. I think this is a measure to discourage heated back-and-forth replies.
But you can always click the "n minutes ago" link to open the individual comment and reply there.
As someone who signed up to participate in the Tiramisù World Cup in Treviso (near Venice) [but ended up not going], I can only offer my condolences :_(
Every community IS different. Amish hold Sunday meeting in their homes, rotating who hosts. Therefore, everyone in the community must live within a practical buggy ride of each other. The community elects a bishop. The bishop has final say for that community. So.... lots of variation in the nuances of rules between communities.
“Live in the world without being of the world.” There are many interpretations of that.
“Live in the world without being of the world.” There are many interpretations of that.
Yep. I went to a Mennonite wedding a few years back and the thing that struck me was just how much perceived variation there was within the larger Anabaptist community vs how much real variation there was.
There were noticeable differences community to community, often less than a mile away. Things like their stance on modern technology, plain dress, etc.
At the same time it was considered a huge deal that the bride & groom came from different communities as they had conflicting theological views. I forget the key difference but it was something smaller than I experienced as a child whenever we'd change Roman Catholic Churches.
There were noticeable differences community to community, often less than a mile away. Things like their stance on modern technology, plain dress, etc.
At the same time it was considered a huge deal that the bride & groom came from different communities as they had conflicting theological views. I forget the key difference but it was something smaller than I experienced as a child whenever we'd change Roman Catholic Churches.
> we'd change Roman Catholic Churches
just curious what do you mean by changing Roman Catholic churches? As far as i know there is only one roman catholic church, but with different dogma's depending on region.
just curious what do you mean by changing Roman Catholic churches? As far as i know there is only one roman catholic church, but with different dogma's depending on region.
As prewett said, I was referring to individual parishes. I didn't mean to capitalize the `C` in `Churches` which perhaps added to the confusion. Whenever we'd shift parishes due to moving or whatever there was always very slight & subtle differences.
For instance, this was all post Vatican II but close enough that some were very much still old timey in feel and others felt more contemporary. Another example stems from the homilies the priests would give, each individual would have their own spin on things and that can have a huge impact on atmosphere.
Specifically what I meant by my comment: my recollection was that some of the key differences in those anabaptist congregations I mentioned tied to physical layout during service. Who sat where, who stood where, etc. Those were the sorts of things that was always a bit different parish to parish in my experience attending mass at a number of RC parishes.
For instance, this was all post Vatican II but close enough that some were very much still old timey in feel and others felt more contemporary. Another example stems from the homilies the priests would give, each individual would have their own spin on things and that can have a huge impact on atmosphere.
Specifically what I meant by my comment: my recollection was that some of the key differences in those anabaptist congregations I mentioned tied to physical layout during service. Who sat where, who stood where, etc. Those were the sorts of things that was always a bit different parish to parish in my experience attending mass at a number of RC parishes.
"Church" often means "congregation", so he probably meant changing parishes, emphasizing that although the broader denomination remained the same, individual parishes/congregations/churches were often substantially different.
There are many churches in full communion with Rome that are not Roman[1].
[1] https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/09/20/are-they-really-cath...
[1] https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/09/20/are-they-really-cath...
> There are many churches in full communion with Rome that are not Roman[1].
No there aren’t; your source seems to have confused the descriptor “Roman Catholic Church” which refers to the entire body in union with Rome for what is usually described, where it needs to be distinguished, as “Latin Church” [0], the autonomous particular sui iuris church within the Roman Catholic headed by the Patriarch of Rome (who, as Pope, is also head of the entire Roman Catholic Church, with superceding authority over the heads of the sui iuris churches.)
[0] formerly also commonly “Western...” but the use of that descriptor has since been fairly authoritatively declared as no longer approrpriate.
No there aren’t; your source seems to have confused the descriptor “Roman Catholic Church” which refers to the entire body in union with Rome for what is usually described, where it needs to be distinguished, as “Latin Church” [0], the autonomous particular sui iuris church within the Roman Catholic headed by the Patriarch of Rome (who, as Pope, is also head of the entire Roman Catholic Church, with superceding authority over the heads of the sui iuris churches.)
[0] formerly also commonly “Western...” but the use of that descriptor has since been fairly authoritatively declared as no longer approrpriate.
The term "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" is ambiguous. Some people read it as meaning "in communion with the Bishop of Rome", other people read it as meaning "Latin Church" ("Latin Rite", "Roman Rite", etc). The Eastern Catholic Churches are Roman in the first sense but not the second.
In my experience, some Eastern Catholics reject the term "Roman Catholic" as a descriptor for themselves because they associate the phrase with the second definition not the first. Given that, I'm not inclined to agree with you that the "Roman Catholic=Latin Catholic" usage is wrong, it's just different.
In my experience, some Eastern Catholics reject the term "Roman Catholic" as a descriptor for themselves because they associate the phrase with the second definition not the first. Given that, I'm not inclined to agree with you that the "Roman Catholic=Latin Catholic" usage is wrong, it's just different.
> As far as i know there is only one roman catholic church, but with different dogma's depending on region.
There is one Roman Catholic Church and its dogmas (and even mere doctrines) are the same everywhere. There are several autonomous particular churches sui iuris within the Roman Catholic Church, and within them many local particular churches, and within them many smaller units called churches, all of which vary in a greater or lesser extent in practices and traditions (but not dogma or doctrine.)
There is one Roman Catholic Church and its dogmas (and even mere doctrines) are the same everywhere. There are several autonomous particular churches sui iuris within the Roman Catholic Church, and within them many local particular churches, and within them many smaller units called churches, all of which vary in a greater or lesser extent in practices and traditions (but not dogma or doctrine.)
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Where? My ex-girlfriend from 12 years ago came from Amish country and I got to meet some when we visited her family. Not a single house even had electricity.
Lots of places.
The term "the Amish" is so broad that it is largely meaningless, unless everything you know is based on stereotypes.
See also: "The Americans," and "The Christians."
You and I are both "HN Users," but I suspect very different. I wouldn't want to be judged based on your lifestyle just because we both belong to this group.
Lots of places.
The term "the Amish" is so broad that it is largely meaningless, unless everything you know is based on stereotypes.
See also: "The Americans," and "The Christians."
You and I are both "HN Users," but I suspect very different. I wouldn't want to be judged based on your lifestyle just because we both belong to this group.
The Amish near me have a little hut (kind a looks like a guard shack) at the end of their driveway. That is where they keep their cell phone.
According (loosely) to the CMM approach, Amish could be thought of as more technologically 'mature', since they have clear policies around evaluating technology according to clear requirements which have been optimized over time, rather than simply chasing trends
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model#Leve...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model#Leve...
>The Amish have the luxury of sitting back and evaluating after the fact. In fairness, I don't think the Amish really care if anything new does get invented, but they have effectively externalized the downsides of technology onto the rest of us while reaping the occasional upside.
This reminded me of an Atlantic article making a similar point: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/07/camp-...
>But Baldwin asks, "Where did you get your axe? And the slide camera and the stove, the flour, the nails, the books, the garden seeds, and the window glass?" While it seemed that they'd gotten farther away from a technological life, "they'd merely lengthened the umbilical cord." And here's the key part of the criticism: "By moving to the bucolic boondocks, that happy family dodged the undesirable effects of the technology that was supporting them even as they sneered," he concludes.
I think we all need to be more engaged and thoughtful about our choices, how they affect our lives, and how they affect the lives of those around us, but we need to be alert for situations where we just push problems elsewhere instead of addressing them.
This reminded me of an Atlantic article making a similar point: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/07/camp-...
>But Baldwin asks, "Where did you get your axe? And the slide camera and the stove, the flour, the nails, the books, the garden seeds, and the window glass?" While it seemed that they'd gotten farther away from a technological life, "they'd merely lengthened the umbilical cord." And here's the key part of the criticism: "By moving to the bucolic boondocks, that happy family dodged the undesirable effects of the technology that was supporting them even as they sneered," he concludes.
I think we all need to be more engaged and thoughtful about our choices, how they affect our lives, and how they affect the lives of those around us, but we need to be alert for situations where we just push problems elsewhere instead of addressing them.
For the most part everyone is like that. I have no clue how to make chips with a 3nm (um?) process. I saw a headline about IBM making progress on it a few weeks ago (or was it 2nm?) However I can sit back and enjoy the progress. In the mean time those people at IBM have no clue how to do the job I'm doing but they can enjoy it working. The people at IBM are smart, and I like to think I am: we could switch places and after a dozen years of training would be just as good - but at the expense of being behind in our current job.
I am not sure the Amish have pushed problems away or externalized them. These problems would continue to exist without the Amish or any other tech-hesitant group.
I view them as a variety of groups who have made some reasoned compromises as to how much they will allow their adoption of technology to change their way of life. They do not seem like the type who think they can do it all on their own and understood that they live inside of another country, etc.
Technology shapes us even as we shape it. They are at least attempting to put in some care as to what shaping they allow.
I view them as a variety of groups who have made some reasoned compromises as to how much they will allow their adoption of technology to change their way of life. They do not seem like the type who think they can do it all on their own and understood that they live inside of another country, etc.
Technology shapes us even as we shape it. They are at least attempting to put in some care as to what shaping they allow.
One thing that most of these items have in common is that you could reasonably recreate them from scratch if the modern manufacturing base disappeared:
- Axe: The pole is made out of wood, and the blade out of metal that can be smelted from ore or scrap with some effort.
- The stove: Same, or build one out of stone.
- The camera: that one's more difficult, but optics or chemistry aren't that new. You may need specialised equipment to manufacture this, but it's still possible.
- Nails: Smelt from ore or scrap into a mold.
- Books: Wood pulp and printing presses, both of which are several centuries old.
- Garden seeds: Literally will self-reproduce, bar any messing about with making them sterile via cross-contamination with commercial varieties.
- Window glass: Melted sand, likely doable with a well-stocked workshop.
It's more akin to a graceful degradation than lengthening the umbilical cord.
- Axe: The pole is made out of wood, and the blade out of metal that can be smelted from ore or scrap with some effort.
- The stove: Same, or build one out of stone.
- The camera: that one's more difficult, but optics or chemistry aren't that new. You may need specialised equipment to manufacture this, but it's still possible.
- Nails: Smelt from ore or scrap into a mold.
- Books: Wood pulp and printing presses, both of which are several centuries old.
- Garden seeds: Literally will self-reproduce, bar any messing about with making them sterile via cross-contamination with commercial varieties.
- Window glass: Melted sand, likely doable with a well-stocked workshop.
It's more akin to a graceful degradation than lengthening the umbilical cord.
- The camera: that one's more difficult, but optics or chemistry aren't that new. You may need specialised equipment to manufacture this, but it's still possible.
creating a functioning camera requires quite advanced machining to create parts with tolerances required.
The same goes for most other items on the list, except for seeds and books. Creating an axe by hand is obviously possible, but getting the high-quality steel we use in the modern day is very hard without industrialization.
Without a lathe and a way to power it, getting a camera is nearly impossible. Creating flat glass is also quite a difficult proces which requires melted lead or tin.
creating a functioning camera requires quite advanced machining to create parts with tolerances required.
The same goes for most other items on the list, except for seeds and books. Creating an axe by hand is obviously possible, but getting the high-quality steel we use in the modern day is very hard without industrialization.
Without a lathe and a way to power it, getting a camera is nearly impossible. Creating flat glass is also quite a difficult proces which requires melted lead or tin.
I've given this a decent bit of thought, and in the unlikely situation that you're living a life with no access to modern materials, you're probably living a pretty busy life. Things you've never thought of, like gathering dry wood, finding potable water, stockpiling food, determining what's edible, constructing shelter and protecting yourself from danger will probably take up almost all your time in your first year, if you make it that long. This is of course very dependent on where you are - in many climates you'll be 24/7 trying to survive, but if you're in a fertile area with good weather, maybe some access to fish, you'll probably have a handful of extra hours here and there for fun projects. Hunter-gatherers in a tropical climate with abundant food, thousands of years of experience and a stable societal structure have around 4 hours per day of free time [0] - you will probably not have those things, so count on much less.
What that means is that your time is the most valuable thing. (And materials, which take lots of time to obtain.) So if you begin to price out the time cost of acquiring all the materials to create a furnace and glass, it'll be enormous. The same goes for a steel axe, or books from wood pulp. In fact, anything from metal is an enormous amount of work, so I'd probably leave it aside.
But that doesn't mean you can't have an axe, or paper, or glass - you simply have to look at what people used to do. Stone axes work fine [1], paper from birch bark is great, and mica makes a decent glass replacement. (If you get lucky, you'll find large mica sheets, which are clear as glass - if you're not, you can attach small ones together, but it won't be clear.) If you're in a cold enough climate, and you survive the winter, ice can be a replacement for glass and a weapon.
As for the camera - no way you'll get a functioning "modern" camera with optics and an aperture and everything. I would simply build a camera obscura and use my birch bark - the biggest technical challenge there is getting a totally dark "room", which could probably be done the simplest by making a dirt hut with a wooden front and a pinhole made of birch bark coated in ash. (The thinner the hole material, the better.) If you had people to trade with, and plenty of time, I suppose it would be possible (if difficult) to make a photosensitive plate that you could use with your pinhole.
[0] https://sci-hub.do/10.1038/s41562-019-0614-6
[1] They only take about 3-4 times longer to cut wood than steel: https://sci-hub.do/https://doi.org/10.2307/3772981
What that means is that your time is the most valuable thing. (And materials, which take lots of time to obtain.) So if you begin to price out the time cost of acquiring all the materials to create a furnace and glass, it'll be enormous. The same goes for a steel axe, or books from wood pulp. In fact, anything from metal is an enormous amount of work, so I'd probably leave it aside.
But that doesn't mean you can't have an axe, or paper, or glass - you simply have to look at what people used to do. Stone axes work fine [1], paper from birch bark is great, and mica makes a decent glass replacement. (If you get lucky, you'll find large mica sheets, which are clear as glass - if you're not, you can attach small ones together, but it won't be clear.) If you're in a cold enough climate, and you survive the winter, ice can be a replacement for glass and a weapon.
As for the camera - no way you'll get a functioning "modern" camera with optics and an aperture and everything. I would simply build a camera obscura and use my birch bark - the biggest technical challenge there is getting a totally dark "room", which could probably be done the simplest by making a dirt hut with a wooden front and a pinhole made of birch bark coated in ash. (The thinner the hole material, the better.) If you had people to trade with, and plenty of time, I suppose it would be possible (if difficult) to make a photosensitive plate that you could use with your pinhole.
[0] https://sci-hub.do/10.1038/s41562-019-0614-6
[1] They only take about 3-4 times longer to cut wood than steel: https://sci-hub.do/https://doi.org/10.2307/3772981
In Amish and pre-civilised societies you are never on your own for that precise reason. The modern idea of going "off the grid" as a lone wolf only works when you have the leverage of modern, post-Industrial Revolution tech to help you along. Remove that, and division of labour within a community becomes the only means to reliably produce something before you grow old.
If specialised, time-consuming work needs to be done, two options come to mind:
- several people rotating on shifts to donate some of their respective 4 spare hours to work on the long-term project
- several people working to provide nutrition and heating for themselves as well as for one other designated person who's the local manufacturing expert, and who proceeds to dedicate all their time to the long-term project.
> As for the camera - no way you'll get a functioning "modern" camera with optics and an aperture and everything. I would simply build a camera obscura and use my birch bark - the biggest technical challenge there is getting a totally dark "room", which could probably be done the simplest by making a dirt hut with a wooden front and a pinhole made of birch bark coated in ash. (The thinner the hole material, the better.) If you had people to trade with, and plenty of time, I suppose it would be possible (if difficult) to make a photosensitive plate that you could use with your pinhole.
That I agree with. A bellows camera on a tripod is probably the closest thing one can make with basic tools that's not fixed in place.
If specialised, time-consuming work needs to be done, two options come to mind:
- several people rotating on shifts to donate some of their respective 4 spare hours to work on the long-term project
- several people working to provide nutrition and heating for themselves as well as for one other designated person who's the local manufacturing expert, and who proceeds to dedicate all their time to the long-term project.
> As for the camera - no way you'll get a functioning "modern" camera with optics and an aperture and everything. I would simply build a camera obscura and use my birch bark - the biggest technical challenge there is getting a totally dark "room", which could probably be done the simplest by making a dirt hut with a wooden front and a pinhole made of birch bark coated in ash. (The thinner the hole material, the better.) If you had people to trade with, and plenty of time, I suppose it would be possible (if difficult) to make a photosensitive plate that you could use with your pinhole.
That I agree with. A bellows camera on a tripod is probably the closest thing one can make with basic tools that's not fixed in place.
That is an absurdly facile take. All of those things predate modern technology, and they could happily buy them had they been made without. The argument misses the entire point of what it means to be Amish.
Even the wording (in particular, the choice of "sneered") makes me think the whole thing was written in bad faith.
Even the wording (in particular, the choice of "sneered") makes me think the whole thing was written in bad faith.
I've always had the impression that this type of retreats were more a trend or status signaling than anything else.
Are you sure that article wasn't about Jewish people? I've heard that about them, and turning them off makes it easy to follow the sabbath, never the Amish.
Most of them in lancaster county do not have cell phones, but have phone booths in a remote corner of their farm so it's not convenient.
Most of them in lancaster county do not have cell phones, but have phone booths in a remote corner of their farm so it's not convenient.
The Amish/Mennonites have an interesting take... Some of them are 'allowed' to drive cars, as long as they're black base models and are "modest" and largely utilitarian. There are also rules about which types of equipment they can have, so no tractors but they can have skid steer loaders for "construction" which they hitch regular farm implements to. No electricity allowed in the house, but no real restrictions about power in the "shop" or battery powered devices.
It's a strange combination between modesty and strategically bending rules. I kind of adore that.
It's a strange combination between modesty and strategically bending rules. I kind of adore that.
> It's a strange combination between modesty and strategically bending rules. I kind of adore that.
It's very earnestly human. Being rigid is fine and all but it also kind of sucks a hell of a lot. So it turns into a "how can I make this suck a little less without breaking what I believe in too much?" which is something I think we all struggle with but it's really laid bare here with the contrast between their lifestyle and ours.
It's very earnestly human. Being rigid is fine and all but it also kind of sucks a hell of a lot. So it turns into a "how can I make this suck a little less without breaking what I believe in too much?" which is something I think we all struggle with but it's really laid bare here with the contrast between their lifestyle and ours.
> The Amish/Mennonites have an interesting take...
Anabaptist communities vary far more than you suggest. It's a bit like Judaism that way; sure some are identifiable by particular dress etc. but there others you wouldn't notice at all in the SUV beside you on the highway.
Anabaptist communities vary far more than you suggest. It's a bit like Judaism that way; sure some are identifiable by particular dress etc. but there others you wouldn't notice at all in the SUV beside you on the highway.
The politics involved in the community are fascinating. They have local committees that decide the rules for a community, anywhere from a neighborhood to a small town. But those local committees also coordinate at a higher regional level to set overall policy, and the various regions also coordinate at the top level. This means a decision made at the top level, like "no electricity in the home" gets filtered down through the communities with different interpretations of the rules. A particularly strict community might ban all automation in the home, while another will ban power lines but allow battery operated tools, while another will ban all electricity but allow air tools causing people to develop air powered hand mixers and refrigerators. You see a lot of clever workarounds for arbitrary rules in the Amish community. It is very common to see rules bent or broken when necessary for a job, like a farmer being allowed to burn gasoline/diesel to run farm equipment even when his local community bans using it for anything else. Some of the furniture makers have rather sophisticated workshops (although nothing CNC) which allow them to make the furniture efficiently enough to sell it for a very low price.
Pretty rude to blame them for "externalizing" something not caused by the them.
By the same token, they are externalizing the upside of early adoption while suffering the loss of benefits, while providing us a living illustration of the alternative to our own choices.
By the same token, they are externalizing the upside of early adoption while suffering the loss of benefits, while providing us a living illustration of the alternative to our own choices.
Neal Stephenson coined the idea of "amistics": the evaluation of technologies not for efficiency, but from an existing value system. Named after the Amish.
I've been living like this for a while, without having a name for it, but at a pretty fine-grained level, for instance by staying off (most) social media.
We all make these decisions. E.g. people's valuing privacy precludes their owning an Amazon Ring.
I've been living like this for a while, without having a name for it, but at a pretty fine-grained level, for instance by staying off (most) social media.
We all make these decisions. E.g. people's valuing privacy precludes their owning an Amazon Ring.
> with cellphones they could turn them off, with a landline your family time could be interrupted
Interestingly, I often miss landline times, because with landlines it was a fair excuse to say you were out and weren't reachable, whereas in the cell phone era people tend to expect you to be always reachable, and I'm in vehement disagreement with that kind of expectation from anyone other than an SO or close family member.
Interestingly, I often miss landline times, because with landlines it was a fair excuse to say you were out and weren't reachable, whereas in the cell phone era people tend to expect you to be always reachable, and I'm in vehement disagreement with that kind of expectation from anyone other than an SO or close family member.
"Sorry, my phone was on do not disturb"
And then your coworkers try to convince you to not use that.
"So how can I reach you then [at all times]?"
They simply cannot comprehend a world in which people are (gasp) not reachable at all times and plan around such an assumption.
"So how can I reach you then [at all times]?"
They simply cannot comprehend a world in which people are (gasp) not reachable at all times and plan around such an assumption.
”Amish women are not taught anything about sex, according to Garrett, which makes it even harder for a girl who's being abused to describe what's happening to her.
Mary said she didn't know how to describe what was happening. "I thought they were being bad to me. That was the only word I had to express it," she said.
In an Amish culture unaccustomed to women speaking up, Mary felt she got more scolding than sympathy when she told her mother what was going on.
She said her mother told her, "You don't fight hard enough and you don't pray hard enough." Mary said her mother made her feel as if the assaults were her fault. "Every time I would talk about this she would say that they have already confessed in church and you're just being unforgiving," she said.
…
"The funny thing is that they view drinking alcohol until you puke as bad a sin as raping somebody. They get the same punishment for either one," Mary said.
But Amish-style punishment was not going to bring Mary the justice she wanted. And for her, the final straw came when she suspected a younger brother, David, was molesting their 4-year-old sister.”[1]
—————-
MCCLURE: The majority of my sources never made a police report. They never had a court case. Whenever I spoke with these women, they had dozens of other victims that they told me about, dozens of other cousins and friends and family members that - they told me that this had happened to them, too. And, obviously, I can't put a number out there that's unverified or not supported or corroborated by a court case or a police report. It's very difficult to do a story like this where the evidence is limited. And so just anecdotally, just based on my conversations with these women and men, there are a lot more victims out there in Amish country that we may never know of simply because there is no paper trail.[2]
—————-
[1]https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=1 [2]https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-...
Mary said she didn't know how to describe what was happening. "I thought they were being bad to me. That was the only word I had to express it," she said.
In an Amish culture unaccustomed to women speaking up, Mary felt she got more scolding than sympathy when she told her mother what was going on.
She said her mother told her, "You don't fight hard enough and you don't pray hard enough." Mary said her mother made her feel as if the assaults were her fault. "Every time I would talk about this she would say that they have already confessed in church and you're just being unforgiving," she said.
…
"The funny thing is that they view drinking alcohol until you puke as bad a sin as raping somebody. They get the same punishment for either one," Mary said.
But Amish-style punishment was not going to bring Mary the justice she wanted. And for her, the final straw came when she suspected a younger brother, David, was molesting their 4-year-old sister.”[1]
—————-
MCCLURE: The majority of my sources never made a police report. They never had a court case. Whenever I spoke with these women, they had dozens of other victims that they told me about, dozens of other cousins and friends and family members that - they told me that this had happened to them, too. And, obviously, I can't put a number out there that's unverified or not supported or corroborated by a court case or a police report. It's very difficult to do a story like this where the evidence is limited. And so just anecdotally, just based on my conversations with these women and men, there are a lot more victims out there in Amish country that we may never know of simply because there is no paper trail.[2]
—————-
[1]https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=1 [2]https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-...
I think it's good not to idealize any community, but this comment needs a little more context if it's meant to convey more than just "Amish bad!!!"
I’m suggesting that maybe we shouldn’t be getting our life pro-tips from a rape cult.
The Amish Keep to Themselves. And They’re Hiding a Horrifying Secret. A year of reporting reveals a culture of incest, rape, and abuse. - January 14, 2020 by Sarah McClure
https://www.typeinvestigations.org/investigation/2020/01/14/...
EDIT: I shouldn’t be surprised that pointing out Amish sexual assault makes HN spitting mad. Few things make HN angrier than implying rape is a problem worth caring about.
The Amish Keep to Themselves. And They’re Hiding a Horrifying Secret. A year of reporting reveals a culture of incest, rape, and abuse. - January 14, 2020 by Sarah McClure
https://www.typeinvestigations.org/investigation/2020/01/14/...
EDIT: I shouldn’t be surprised that pointing out Amish sexual assault makes HN spitting mad. Few things make HN angrier than implying rape is a problem worth caring about.
If your statements are coming from experiences you’ve had in this culture, I’m very sorry. Their authority-centered and closed culture has sheltered many abusers. This is a serious ongoing problem, and I’m aware of many people who have suffered.
But to be clear: none of the religious practices of the Amish involve rape. The same weaknesses are present in many other similarly organized groups (see the ongoing scandals in the Catholic Church, less reported but similar patterns in southern Baptists, and even the military’s serious issues with sexual abuse).
Singling out the Amish and claiming that something they’re deeply ashamed of is the focal point of their religion is textbook hasty generalization and hyperbole.
But to be clear: none of the religious practices of the Amish involve rape. The same weaknesses are present in many other similarly organized groups (see the ongoing scandals in the Catholic Church, less reported but similar patterns in southern Baptists, and even the military’s serious issues with sexual abuse).
Singling out the Amish and claiming that something they’re deeply ashamed of is the focal point of their religion is textbook hasty generalization and hyperbole.
> Their authority-centered and closed culture has sheltered many abusers.
This is a much broader phenomena I think; isolated communities with fairly centralized authority lend themselves to sheltering abusers.
This is a much broader phenomena I think; isolated communities with fairly centralized authority lend themselves to sheltering abusers.
100%.
Calling them a rape cult is a little extreme. Although I do agree they are far to evangelized on the internet. For the most part they are just people with an 8th grade education, trying to get by with religion and community/family coming first
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Amish have that luxury because they're in their safe bubble in rural America. Any other communities that tried to live that lifestyle probably got wiped out by their neighbors through out the history.
They have also cultivated a reputation and so they get leeway to do things that the average person wouldn't be allowed to do. Most of us wouldn't want live in a house not connected to the power grid, so the fact that in some places it is illegal unless you are Amish doesn't bother us.
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I live in Lancaster and have been around Mennonites my whole life. I don't disagree with some of your points but I think there is more nuance to it. My understanding is that it isn't about delaying judgment on new technology, it is about chasing "wants" or "keeping up with the Joneses". This is what their culture is designed to protect against. They know that cars are more efficient than a horse but if one person gets a car, another person will be tempted to a nicer one, and the next one even nicer. So to prevent the chase, they say they aren't allowed. The same with clothes or appliances or technology. This is how they can still do okay with farming because they don't have any million dollar tractors. Their costs are super low and they have large families to do the labor so they don't need to hire workers.
Lots of Amish have cell phones but it is mostly the younger ones and they hide them in the corn fields. They sneak out at night or use them when they work off the farm. It might be surprising to some that the Amish have moved into the trades with a force. Most of them can't farm anymore because there isn't any farmland for sale in Lancaster anymore, and lots have pushed west to Ohio or Indiana or Iowa. The ones that work in the trades, get picked up every day and ride in someone else's $80K crew cab truck, they go into the convenience store and buy breakfast and lunch just the same as everyone else. They have learned that there is more money out in the "English" world than in farming. It will be interesting to see what happens across time as they get used to "keeping up".
Lots of Amish have cell phones but it is mostly the younger ones and they hide them in the corn fields. They sneak out at night or use them when they work off the farm. It might be surprising to some that the Amish have moved into the trades with a force. Most of them can't farm anymore because there isn't any farmland for sale in Lancaster anymore, and lots have pushed west to Ohio or Indiana or Iowa. The ones that work in the trades, get picked up every day and ride in someone else's $80K crew cab truck, they go into the convenience store and buy breakfast and lunch just the same as everyone else. They have learned that there is more money out in the "English" world than in farming. It will be interesting to see what happens across time as they get used to "keeping up".
Anyone here who has had doubts about installing a “Home Assistant” in their home, or procuring a modern “Smart” TV, or anyone who recognizes themselves in this meme: (https://imgur.com/6wbgy2L) are essentially having the same kinds of thoughts as the Amish have about technology: Who is this technology serving? Is it really to the ultimate benefit of me, or my society?
If you want IOT things that are fully under your control, it's definitely possible. Home Assistant with Tasmota/Zwave/Zigbee devices is very powerful, all without requiring any cloud connection.
I have so many minor automations that add up over time. When I get home, my Z-Wave lock on the front door automatically unlocks. If I open the garage, the LED shop lights turn on and the door in from the garage unlocks.
I have so many minor automations that add up over time. When I get home, my Z-Wave lock on the front door automatically unlocks. If I open the garage, the LED shop lights turn on and the door in from the garage unlocks.
I'm curious what you do with the several seconds per day those automations save you. I imagine at least some of that time is spent troubleshooting and reconfiguring it.
To me, (home) automation is not (only) about saving a total amount of time. It's about saving time at the right moment. When I have lots of free time, I will happily spend it refining my home automations. It's a fun hobby and simple programming with things that you can actually see and touch. But when I just got home from a stressful day at work and have to hurry to some other appointment, saving a few seconds here and there can actually be very valuable. As long as all your "smart" stuff can't access the internet it's great.
Regarding that picture: I wonder if a locksmith has a "no mechanical locks" policy.
Otherwise it sounds like a case of "don't get high on your own supply".
Otherwise it sounds like a case of "don't get high on your own supply".
What do you mean? I tried looking up what a mechanical lock is, it's not clear to me. Would it be bad for a locksmith to sell one to you?
In this context "mechanical" means "non-electronic". Mechanical locks are desirable because they have no unknown exploits, are not reliant on third party services, don't need batteries, and cannot be attacked remotely or en-masse.
Attacking a lock remotely still requires physical access to the property in order to reap the benefits of that attack.
Given that most mechanical locks can be trivially picked, I fail to see the disadvantages of electronic locks. Yes, the failure modes of mechanical locks are better understood - they are understood to be incredibly serious, and easy to exploit. An $80 snap gun will open most locks, and requires zero skill or training to use.
Saying that you prefer a mechanical lock to an electric one because its failure modes are well-understood is like saying that you prefer ROT13 encryption to <My homebrew encryption>.
Are homebrew systems stupid? Yes. Is it likely that my homebrew system has problems? Yes. Are those problems well understood? No. Is it probably better than ROT13..? Yes, because ROT13 can be broken by a child.
Given that most mechanical locks can be trivially picked, I fail to see the disadvantages of electronic locks. Yes, the failure modes of mechanical locks are better understood - they are understood to be incredibly serious, and easy to exploit. An $80 snap gun will open most locks, and requires zero skill or training to use.
Saying that you prefer a mechanical lock to an electric one because its failure modes are well-understood is like saying that you prefer ROT13 encryption to <My homebrew encryption>.
Are homebrew systems stupid? Yes. Is it likely that my homebrew system has problems? Yes. Are those problems well understood? No. Is it probably better than ROT13..? Yes, because ROT13 can be broken by a child.
Security isn't the only thing that locks provide, they also provide access, which electronic locks will always be worse at.
I say this as a person who used to own a smart lock and went back to a regular one because I was tired of getting locked out by dead batteries and malfunctioning bluetooth.
Also on one occasion someone who was not authorized (fortunately a guest), unlocked my door and entered my house with the electronic lock because I happened to be sitting near the door on the inside.
More electronics does not mean more better.
I say this as a person who used to own a smart lock and went back to a regular one because I was tired of getting locked out by dead batteries and malfunctioning bluetooth.
Also on one occasion someone who was not authorized (fortunately a guest), unlocked my door and entered my house with the electronic lock because I happened to be sitting near the door on the inside.
More electronics does not mean more better.
I'll agree with you on these points. The failure modes for an authorized user of an electronic lock are worse than for a mechanical lock.
Having watched the Lockpicking Lawyer's channel, I'd guess that a locksmith would prefer a well-designed mechanical lock to anything electronic.
All locks are mechanical on some level.
Love it, reminds me a lot of Cal Newport's ideas:
https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2017/09/18/approach-technolo...
The focus should be on minimalism. Start by understanding your priorities, goals, and the mental ecosystem you want to inhabit. Then evaluate each tool for its effectiveness in the above pre-stated constraints.
Every technology should have a clear purpose & place in your life, or it risks becoming into a form of media you lose control over.
https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2017/09/18/approach-technolo...
The focus should be on minimalism. Start by understanding your priorities, goals, and the mental ecosystem you want to inhabit. Then evaluate each tool for its effectiveness in the above pre-stated constraints.
Every technology should have a clear purpose & place in your life, or it risks becoming into a form of media you lose control over.
I wonder if I'm weird because I don't want a smart speaker in my house? Then again, I still find voice recognition so sketchy that I just don't want to deal with it.
On the other hand, the real reason why I put smart switches in my home was practical. I hate that 3-way switches have no fixed "on" or "off" motion, so I started with smart switches to replace my 3-ways. Then I realized that the timers on smart switches are easier to program and adapt to Daylight Savings Time, so I put more in.
I'm an early adopter and I also approach new technology very conservatively. I can totally understand why the Amish don't rush out and adopt everything.
On the other hand, the real reason why I put smart switches in my home was practical. I hate that 3-way switches have no fixed "on" or "off" motion, so I started with smart switches to replace my 3-ways. Then I realized that the timers on smart switches are easier to program and adapt to Daylight Savings Time, so I put more in.
I'm an early adopter and I also approach new technology very conservatively. I can totally understand why the Amish don't rush out and adopt everything.
I'm with you; you're not weird! (Or, maybe we're both weird!) I don't want a smart speaker because i can't see any worthwhile value that i get from it. I especially like your example of the 3-way switch...that seems a conscious decision that clearly added value for you without just trying new tech for new tech's sake, etc.
Adding voice control to lights is surprisingly handy.
This reminds me of I.O.L. Now *that* is a feature that everyone should have in every room of their home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHoXX4QtY3s
(Sorry, could not resist ;-)
(Sorry, could not resist ;-)
I have never understood the appeal of smart speakers. A smart speaker can't do anything that a smartphone can't already do, and I have that on my person at all times.
Spotify sent me a google home for free, and in a year I have only intentionally used it once or twice, and I think on one of those occasions my phone answered the wakeword first, so what even is the point? 99% of the times it waked were responding to me telling someone "okay cool", or my cat stepping on it. A few months ago it went in the old dead electronics pile, and a few weeks ago that pile went to a recycler, hopefully the metals in it can be turned into something actually useful.
Spotify sent me a google home for free, and in a year I have only intentionally used it once or twice, and I think on one of those occasions my phone answered the wakeword first, so what even is the point? 99% of the times it waked were responding to me telling someone "okay cool", or my cat stepping on it. A few months ago it went in the old dead electronics pile, and a few weeks ago that pile went to a recycler, hopefully the metals in it can be turned into something actually useful.
I got a Google Home Mini for the sole purpose of being able to turn off the lights when I'm on the couch, about to fall asleep.
Ok, I'm with you, but this is the thing that confuses me: why don't you use the voice assistant feature of your phone to do that? Why do you need an additional device?
That requires grabbing and lifting my phone, it also requires my phone to be in reach.
I know several older people who refuse to reckon with modern phones (or, in one case, a cellular phone at all) but who have accepted "smart" speakers into their homes. I am not a fan of things that are always listening but I do appreciate the effort to bring "smartphone utility" to other objects/interfaces.
This 2009 article "Amish Hackers" [1] will probably be of interest to many here. It covers in detail the Amish approach to technology.
[1] https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
[1] https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
It seems they recognize that the community level functions of tech are more salient than the individual level functions. In our society we tend to take the opposite approach. We evaluate technology only based on how it benefits an individual, while overlooking its effect on communities.
A desktop computer at work or in the living room somehow doesn't have the addictive qualities of a smartphone. Perhaps it's because all technology does is amplify networks, and the networks created by isolated people with devices are different from the bonds of family, work, proximity, etc.
A desktop computer at work or in the living room somehow doesn't have the addictive qualities of a smartphone. Perhaps it's because all technology does is amplify networks, and the networks created by isolated people with devices are different from the bonds of family, work, proximity, etc.
I don’t think I really admitted to myself how addictive my smartphone is until I uninstalled most of my apps and locked it down with a simple management profile (no web browser, no app store). I’ve had it this way for months and it’s so much more pleasant now, yet I still have the same habit as mentioned in the article: I pull it out whenever I’m in the bathroom. Now that there’s not much to do on it, I’m very well versed on the current weather conditions.
"Tang’s target customers were desk workers who downloaded meditation apps and people who paid for digital-detox camps." They're selling virtue signalling.
If that's what you want, get a new unlocked Android phone, and power it up without a SIM card. When it wants you to sign up for Google, click "later". Then remove the Google startup app to avoid further nagging. Then connect to WiFi or use a USB cable, download F-Droid, and load what you need from there. Remove most of the Google crapware, plus any other junk that came with the phone. Then add a SIM card. I have a ruggedized phone from Caterpillar Tractor set up that way.
(Haven't installed a replacement for Google Play Services yet, though. I should.)
If that's what you want, get a new unlocked Android phone, and power it up without a SIM card. When it wants you to sign up for Google, click "later". Then remove the Google startup app to avoid further nagging. Then connect to WiFi or use a USB cable, download F-Droid, and load what you need from there. Remove most of the Google crapware, plus any other junk that came with the phone. Then add a SIM card. I have a ruggedized phone from Caterpillar Tractor set up that way.
(Haven't installed a replacement for Google Play Services yet, though. I should.)
I love the idea of technology as a tool; and the idea that "success" as viewed by how long someone uses that tool to be perverse in nature.
Something to keep in mind while building the "tooling" of tomorrow.
Something to keep in mind while building the "tooling" of tomorrow.
This book helped change the way I think about technology: https://www.amazon.com/Better-Off-Flipping-Switch-Technology... It's about the Amish.
This helped change the way I think about the Amish: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-... https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=1
Johnny Byler's sentencing brought out the largest crowd -- and the most tears -- not in support of Mary, but in support of the confessed rapist.
Johnny Byler's sentencing brought out the largest crowd -- and the most tears -- not in support of Mary, but in support of the confessed rapist.
> Most Silicon Valley CEOs severely restrict their own children’s access to phones and screens.
Is anybody aware of the source of this quote? I hear it quite often but have never seen the evidence to support it. I am starting to think that it might just be convenient to throw into an argument about technology.
Is anybody aware of the source of this quote? I hear it quite often but have never seen the evidence to support it. I am starting to think that it might just be convenient to throw into an argument about technology.
This is where I first saw the idea: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/silicon-valley-parents-ra...
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The bigger picture was that the Amish view of technology was not to view 1857 or whenever as the year technology stopped, but their view was to evaluate technology in light of where it fit in their culture. Hard work is a virtue, so why do I want tools to make things easier. Raising barns together draws us together as a community, so what's the value in technology that lets fewer people build a building. And so forth and so on.
On the surface the idea of evaluation technology based on impact seems great, but the thing is the Amish never invent anything. The rest of culture invents without thinking about the consequences and deals with the consequent. The Amish have the luxury of sitting back and evaluating after the fact. In fairness, I don't think the Amish really care if anything new does get invented, but they have effectively externalized the downsides of technology onto the rest of us while reaping the occasional upside.