Older job seekers get fewer offers on LinkedIn but a younger profile photo helps(psychnewsdaily.com)
psychnewsdaily.com
Older job seekers get fewer offers on LinkedIn but a younger profile photo helps
https://www.psychnewsdaily.com/older-job-seekers-on-linkedin-get-fewer-job-offers-but-younger-profile-photo-helps/
128 comments
I'm an engineering manager in my 40s and I've hired engineers older than me.
I appreciate you're absolutely correct, age discrimination does happen. One thing to consider for older engineers is that, though your technical expertise improves through the decades, it's not just technologies that you have to keep up with but also cultural practices. That is, the bad culture fit isn't necessarily code for "We don't want you because you're old." but could be a genuine reason.
As an example, consider the book The Phoenix Project which dissects the reasons for discarding segregation of roles like developers, QA, and ops in separate teams into service teams of DevOps / T-shaped engineers. If you haven't worked in that environment or don't appreciate the difference, you may be judged accordingly.
I appreciate you're absolutely correct, age discrimination does happen. One thing to consider for older engineers is that, though your technical expertise improves through the decades, it's not just technologies that you have to keep up with but also cultural practices. That is, the bad culture fit isn't necessarily code for "We don't want you because you're old." but could be a genuine reason.
As an example, consider the book The Phoenix Project which dissects the reasons for discarding segregation of roles like developers, QA, and ops in separate teams into service teams of DevOps / T-shaped engineers. If you haven't worked in that environment or don't appreciate the difference, you may be judged accordingly.
The only algorithm for hiring someone should be as follows:
if (candidate.canCode && !candidate.isAsshole) return true; return false;
if (candidate.canCode && !candidate.isAsshole) return true; return false;
I agree with you, those are absolutely fundamental. The bar should be set higher though, especially for senior engineers.
https://benjiweber.co.uk/blog/2021/04/10/dont-hire-top-talen...
This is why I stress the importance of culture. I got into engineering because I loved coding, I loved problem solving, I loved writing programs and making things happen on the screen. It's so easy for the team sport aspect of software engineering to become a blindspot if it's something you're not interested in.
https://benjiweber.co.uk/blog/2021/04/10/dont-hire-top-talen...
This is why I stress the importance of culture. I got into engineering because I loved coding, I loved problem solving, I loved writing programs and making things happen on the screen. It's so easy for the team sport aspect of software engineering to become a blindspot if it's something you're not interested in.
What about candidate.can_work_in_a_team? Or follows_requirements_instead_of_doing_their_own_thing? It's a huge problem and there are so many difficult personalities out there that one has to look at "culture" and personality.
you clearly can not work in a team as the original codebase was in camel case and yet here you are pushing snake case. /s
are your requirements written as test cases? cause if so, there's no arguing about if the work is done or not
(except for performance requirements, sonar qube, etc)
(except for performance requirements, sonar qube, etc)
> What about candidate.can_work_in_a_team? Or follows_requirements_instead_of_doing_their_own_thing?
In a way, all these are part of `!candidate.isAsshole`
In a way, all these are part of `!candidate.isAsshole`
> I think the underlying reason is when you have far more experience than your future boss they are intimidated by you.
That is so true; however, they tend to be weak managers with delicate egos and poor vision. Count yourself lucky you didn't waste your time.
There are plenty of managers who highly value experience and capability regardless of age. They are worth searching for. Such a manager's project is probably also more challenging and interesting.
That is so true; however, they tend to be weak managers with delicate egos and poor vision. Count yourself lucky you didn't waste your time.
There are plenty of managers who highly value experience and capability regardless of age. They are worth searching for. Such a manager's project is probably also more challenging and interesting.
Ive only ever been offered a job by someone older than me.
Anytime someone younger interviewed me it never seemed to go well.
Anytime someone younger interviewed me it never seemed to go well.
I was a CTO for a few years at a startup, that definitely seems to be a turnoff from potential managers.
It's really an issue with ego in organizational structures and power. I've managed people far more experienced or skilled in areas than me. It simply requires you to realize you're not inherently 'superior' to the people you manage, just that you're managing (i.e. manager) highly skilled people to solve problems.
Recognize when to trust people and do just that--you know they're awesome, they know they're awesome, why not take advantage of that and build on it to create something more awesome? Learn to be wrong or make bad management decisions out of ignorance and accept when experienced people suggest or tell you otherwise--they may even give you a way out of a mess you created. Skilled people with that sort of experience often aren't trying to correct you to insult you, they're trying to help you, the team, and themselves by offering their wealth of experience and knowledge.
It's when experienced people like this are quiet is when you should really be worried. If they aren't making suggestions, unless you're sure of yourself, you've likely created or been subjected to an environment experienced individuals have given up on improving and are now in death marches on your project efforts, quietly updating their resumes and awakening their contacts, looking for new positions.
Recognize when to trust people and do just that--you know they're awesome, they know they're awesome, why not take advantage of that and build on it to create something more awesome? Learn to be wrong or make bad management decisions out of ignorance and accept when experienced people suggest or tell you otherwise--they may even give you a way out of a mess you created. Skilled people with that sort of experience often aren't trying to correct you to insult you, they're trying to help you, the team, and themselves by offering their wealth of experience and knowledge.
It's when experienced people like this are quiet is when you should really be worried. If they aren't making suggestions, unless you're sure of yourself, you've likely created or been subjected to an environment experienced individuals have given up on improving and are now in death marches on your project efforts, quietly updating their resumes and awakening their contacts, looking for new positions.
I recently dropped a sage bomb on a friend, and I was sure I hit some serious sage advice gold.
Here it is:
There is a difference between your identity being in something versus your heart being in something.
Identity is a very very cheap substitute for passion and integrity. ‘I am this, therefore I am correct in doing this’.
Young managers fundamentally will pay the price with identity, not anything else.
Here it is:
There is a difference between your identity being in something versus your heart being in something.
Identity is a very very cheap substitute for passion and integrity. ‘I am this, therefore I am correct in doing this’.
Young managers fundamentally will pay the price with identity, not anything else.
Even younger picture cannot help those who are facing prejudice due to visible disability, deformity or racism.
Biases due to profile picture adversely affecting marginalized is not new, Airbnb's black guests and owners have documented this under #AirbnbWhileBlack forcing the company to make several changes to how profile pictures and user names work.
But LinkedIn never acknowledged these issues and has instead doubled down on visual identity now like having 'Video introduction' as a primary feature. I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce 'Upload your video to Sign in'[2].
[1] https://www.fastcompany.com/90460723/airbnbwhileblack-the-in...
[2] https://hitstartup.com/year-2025/
Biases due to profile picture adversely affecting marginalized is not new, Airbnb's black guests and owners have documented this under #AirbnbWhileBlack forcing the company to make several changes to how profile pictures and user names work.
But LinkedIn never acknowledged these issues and has instead doubled down on visual identity now like having 'Video introduction' as a primary feature. I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce 'Upload your video to Sign in'[2].
[1] https://www.fastcompany.com/90460723/airbnbwhileblack-the-in...
[2] https://hitstartup.com/year-2025/
'cultural fit': No brown foreigners or old people, please.
Yes, "cultural fit" is just a way to evade the charge of discrimination in hiring.
It's more complex than that. At least at places I've worked, the discrimination is unacknowledged, but unintentional. It doesn't quite pass the bar for discrimination in hiring. Most black / brown people who grew up in white communities, and second-generation foreigners, do fine for "culture fit."
It also cuts in all directions. There is a lack of culture fit with Chinese-run companies in the US hiring Americans, with African-Americans hiring foreigners, etc.
That obviously favors groups most in power, but there are places where it favors other groups, and who is in power changes over decades. Fixing the problem involves being able to discuss that nuance.
It also cuts in all directions. There is a lack of culture fit with Chinese-run companies in the US hiring Americans, with African-Americans hiring foreigners, etc.
That obviously favors groups most in power, but there are places where it favors other groups, and who is in power changes over decades. Fixing the problem involves being able to discuss that nuance.
> It gets you the interview, you can pass the coding test but then get told that they don't think you're a 'cultural fit'.
a recent AMZN innovation to optimize that process out - an explicitly stated max years of experience cap that thus effectively bars you even from applying (previous post with some replies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786601 )
You may be willing and qualified, yet because of age you can't even apply. Feels just nice.
a recent AMZN innovation to optimize that process out - an explicitly stated max years of experience cap that thus effectively bars you even from applying (previous post with some replies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786601 )
You may be willing and qualified, yet because of age you can't even apply. Feels just nice.
How old is "old"? I'm 32, is my Lifeclock already red/black?
Oooo! Nice "Logan's Run" reference! You win this thread in my book. ;)
may be. What i saw was a 10 years cap, and otherwise the next level on the menu was SDE 5 (i.e. principal, expected to have publications, etc., and only rare individuals can make SDE5 coming from outside as i gathered from googling) which i can only wish you great luck passing the interview for. Note: it was a real unambiguous cap, explicitly stressed as the strict cap 2 times, not that typical "we're looking for 5-10 years experience", and it was made clear that for exceeding the cap - either apply for SDE5 or don't bother to apply at all.
Maybe they were talking about an experience cap for hiring at a given (low) level? Which is also stupid, but since many companies (I have no experience with Amazon, but I do know Microsoft and Facebook will) “manage you out” if you don’t get promotions at a minimum rate, makes some kind of sense.
BTW, SDE 5 isn’t an Amazon level. There is L5, which corresponds to SDE II, which is only one promotion from college hire. And there is Principal, which is L7.
https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google&track=Software...
BTW, SDE 5 isn’t an Amazon level. There is L5, which corresponds to SDE II, which is only one promotion from college hire. And there is Principal, which is L7.
https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google&track=Software...
This is just another one of your comments saying the same thing. And the top reply is a current employee saying it's not true.
Do you actually have any proof about what you're asserting?
Do you actually have any proof about what you're asserting?
[deleted]
i guess it is a recent development as i don't remember seeing that from AMZN recruiters before and thus those current employees may not experienced it when they were recruited.
I think it is an outrageous borderline illegal practice worth mentioning in related public forums, as I think it may become a widely accepted practice if not called.
If you think about it - i posted about multi-trillion dollar company with an army of lawyers what probably [IANAL] can be construed as libel if not true. Would i be posting it if i didn't have documentary support for it? ( AMZN has it on their email servers too so it isn't out if the blue for them)
I think it is an outrageous borderline illegal practice worth mentioning in related public forums, as I think it may become a widely accepted practice if not called.
If you think about it - i posted about multi-trillion dollar company with an army of lawyers what probably [IANAL] can be construed as libel if not true. Would i be posting it if i didn't have documentary support for it? ( AMZN has it on their email servers too so it isn't out if the blue for them)
So you don't have any corroborating evidence, any sources, anything other than your word? You might as well be making it up. "Well I'd get in trouble if I'm wrong" isn't a good defense, especially on a pseudonymous forum where people post wrong information constantly. I think the odds of AMZN trawling through your comments to try and figure out who you are just to pursue libel charges are as close to zero as anything could be.
I am calling this horse pucky. I am going to throw my anecdotal feedback to counter your anecdote. I checked with amzn recruiter friends and they were all going "wha?"... Their current biggest problem is "getting someone who is 50% better then the hiring team". Cutting people with extensive experience would be counterproductive to this goal.
Could you do something like:
I have 1 year experience. I also happen to have 2, 3, 4... etc. In total I have 15 but that includes any lesser number of years too.
I have 1 year experience. I also happen to have 2, 3, 4... etc. In total I have 15 but that includes any lesser number of years too.
Going off on a bit of a tangent, this is a classical problem in linguistics. Is the literal meaning of "John has three cats" "John has exactly three cats" or "John has at least three cats"?
https://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/w14/implicatu...
https://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/w14/implicatu...
The language is clear "no more than".
The most consistent pattern I have observed as an older developer with some years on a resume is absolute utter astonishment when I don't want to waste time on a bunch of confused newb shit like sickly bloated frameworks with a million dependencies. Its weird to hear people acknowledge that I have just so much experience on paper and yet be so amazingly dumbfounded surprised that I would be focused on less junior things.
I haven't yet found the proper words to converse through that, but a team of similarly older developers sharing similar concerns adds tremendous value.
I haven't yet found the proper words to converse through that, but a team of similarly older developers sharing similar concerns adds tremendous value.
omg yes. i've taken way to many jobs where, after alot of very considered discussion about the kind of work i do, and how I dont consider generic devops worth the time. happy to debug our code in production, but i'm not first line support or software install/configure.
yes, they assure me, they really want a software developer in the classic sense. this is an absolutely perfect fit.
and when I show up? welcome to the team, why dont you shadow joe who is going to be upgrading Kafka kafka this week.. at Google they actually pointed me at the nightly error queue for some AI pipeline and told me my job for the next 6 months was going to be pulling out the errors and manually fixing the input until it passes.
the real issue is that they just dont really do software development. so much so they dont even know what it looks like.
yes, they assure me, they really want a software developer in the classic sense. this is an absolutely perfect fit.
and when I show up? welcome to the team, why dont you shadow joe who is going to be upgrading Kafka kafka this week.. at Google they actually pointed me at the nightly error queue for some AI pipeline and told me my job for the next 6 months was going to be pulling out the errors and manually fixing the input until it passes.
the real issue is that they just dont really do software development. so much so they dont even know what it looks like.
"the real issue is that they just dont really do software development. "
No offense, that kind of seems to be your issue, not theirs.
In large orgs if there are 10 'technical but not really dev roles' for ever 2 devs ... that's the reality of the world we live in.
It's maybe 'sad' that we call can't write code, but that's maybe not quite an 'industry' problem.
On the other hand, using giant fragile stacks with a million dependencies and systems that are an 'inherent mess' ... well that's maybe a little bit different and motivation is different because you might be actually wasting your time.
But in reality there is a ton of work to be done and most of it is not glamorous.
No offense, that kind of seems to be your issue, not theirs.
In large orgs if there are 10 'technical but not really dev roles' for ever 2 devs ... that's the reality of the world we live in.
It's maybe 'sad' that we call can't write code, but that's maybe not quite an 'industry' problem.
On the other hand, using giant fragile stacks with a million dependencies and systems that are an 'inherent mess' ... well that's maybe a little bit different and motivation is different because you might be actually wasting your time.
But in reality there is a ton of work to be done and most of it is not glamorous.
sounds like you would be wise not to hire me. if only more people understood that software development isn't operations.
As an engineer with more than 15 years professional experience, my definition of "junior shit" would be thinking you can hand-roll a foundation or framework better than something that already exists.
If the existing framework is so great, why does it keep getting replaced with a new framework? Why aren’t we all still on Angular?
And if we all keep hiring only the best candidates, why would we think that they can’t write a better framework? somebody is writing a better framework.
And if we all keep hiring only the best candidates, why would we think that they can’t write a better framework? somebody is writing a better framework.
It's number 39. in Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design.
https://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html
I have this on my list of questions I ask interviewers. I should follow-up with "how much of your budget is dedicated to this?" Major red flag if they don't even know how much catering to their NIH syndrome currently costs them.
https://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html
I have this on my list of questions I ask interviewers. I should follow-up with "how much of your budget is dedicated to this?" Major red flag if they don't even know how much catering to their NIH syndrome currently costs them.
Do you also ask the opposite? How much of your budget is dedicated to working round, debugging, and wrestling with tools developed for the framework?
Really great list, thanks for sharing that!
Number 4 hits too close to home. Great list.
Backend framework? Fair enough. Frontend framework? I'm really not so sure anymore.
user does something -> change state -> modify DOM
DOM modifications can get very slow very soon. After all, each reflow is actually a whole cascade of operations.
Ostensibly simple things like swapping rows in a table can be computationally intensive if not done right.
Ostensibly simple things like swapping rows in a table can be computationally intensive if not done right.
It's a fruitless endeavor arguing with people who think frontend is trivial. They've only worked on small, isolated projects by themselves and have used that experience to convince them it's the whole story and captures every project.
> It's a fruitless endeavor arguing with people
Agreed :D
Agreed :D
Oh absolutely. You need to know what you're doing.
But they same applies to react.
But they same applies to react.
That reminds me of people comparing writing in JavaScript (without their pet abstraction library) to writing in assembly. What a bunch of horse shit. It’s a red flag to self-identify configuration monkeys (people limited to following instructions) apart from those that can actually write and test applications.
This rule about absolute failure in rolling your own realistically only applies to cryptography, because the bar there is set extremely high and there is a rigorous vetting process.
This rule about absolute failure in rolling your own realistically only applies to cryptography, because the bar there is set extremely high and there is a rigorous vetting process.
I mean you put it a bit harshly but I'm with you. Last year I delivered an app in vanilla JS (super tight deadline and couldn't figure out how the google maps / react integration worked). It was fine. I rolled my own reactive data structure in a few lines of code (seriously, it can be less than 10) and got to work. Really enjoyable experience. Felt so much closer to the browser and didn't feel like I was suffering a big loss in expressiveness.
I've been doing some more vanilla JS recently in my off time. The only thing that really makes me wish for a library is IndexedDB - by the time I took JS seriously it already had promises, and this oldschool callback heavy 'onerror' style is a challenge.
I've been doing some more vanilla JS recently in my off time. The only thing that really makes me wish for a library is IndexedDB - by the time I took JS seriously it already had promises, and this oldschool callback heavy 'onerror' style is a challenge.
> As an engineer with more than 15 years professional experience, my definition of "junior shit" would be thinking you can hand-roll a foundation or framework better than something that already exists.
You're not wrong, although to be fair, it isn't always about hand-rolling a framework. Sometimes it's just about experience and knowledge about which existing framework might best fit a given use case (without unnecessary bloat) as opposed to just choosing the latest "ooh shiny!" bloated buzzword framework to build upon purely because it's new and trendy this week.
Although some use cases do call for the "bloated" framework, because feature requirements demand using a framework that provides those features. Again, experience and knowledge can inform whether this is necessarily the case, and one should obviously avoid hiring any applicant who does not see a valid need for the choice of framework/toolchain when it was chosen for good reason.
You're not wrong, although to be fair, it isn't always about hand-rolling a framework. Sometimes it's just about experience and knowledge about which existing framework might best fit a given use case (without unnecessary bloat) as opposed to just choosing the latest "ooh shiny!" bloated buzzword framework to build upon purely because it's new and trendy this week.
Although some use cases do call for the "bloated" framework, because feature requirements demand using a framework that provides those features. Again, experience and knowledge can inform whether this is necessarily the case, and one should obviously avoid hiring any applicant who does not see a valid need for the choice of framework/toolchain when it was chosen for good reason.
I often come to this conclusion.
One of my frameworks has hundreds of open source contributors now, and tens of millions of downstream users use things built on top of it.
I'm now working on another one, and we just had our first few PRs from people who aren't me.
And I ain't too young anymore.
(And yes, this comment, while true, is tongue-in-cheek; there were darned good reasons for making new frameworks in both cases)
One of my frameworks has hundreds of open source contributors now, and tens of millions of downstream users use things built on top of it.
I'm now working on another one, and we just had our first few PRs from people who aren't me.
And I ain't too young anymore.
(And yes, this comment, while true, is tongue-in-cheek; there were darned good reasons for making new frameworks in both cases)
The most senior engineer I’ve met had a refreshing attitude that clicked with me.
“It’s just typing. Typey typey type.”
I take that to mean, no matter the code base, no matter the questionable choices made historically and that will be made in the future, the job doesn’t change.
Figure out the requirements, grind until they’re met.
Who cares what the stack is and how many layers of libraries there are? If that becomes a problem we will fix it.
“It’s just typing. Typey typey type.”
I take that to mean, no matter the code base, no matter the questionable choices made historically and that will be made in the future, the job doesn’t change.
Figure out the requirements, grind until they’re met.
Who cares what the stack is and how many layers of libraries there are? If that becomes a problem we will fix it.
But how much typing, how much staring at screens, how many meetings are needed to reach your actual goals? I care about the choices bc the wrong ones create problems which require more typing, or typing at night. "The job doesn't change" except the amount of time and effort required to do something useful can change.
Sure, but that’s not my problem as a new hire. I just assume any new codebase will be horribly sticky and hope I can smooth it out a little.
Humans calibrate so quickly. With my latest job, I spent the first month thinking I was coding my way through a nostril-deep vat of honey and getting nothing done, but my boss was impressed with my productivity. Now it’s just normal and I feel productive again though the pace hasn’t changed.
Startups go faster, big companies go slower. I’d much rather get paid well and navigate intractable tech debt with zero pressure to work extra hours than move quickly and get side eyes for stopping at 5.
Humans calibrate so quickly. With my latest job, I spent the first month thinking I was coding my way through a nostril-deep vat of honey and getting nothing done, but my boss was impressed with my productivity. Now it’s just normal and I feel productive again though the pace hasn’t changed.
Startups go faster, big companies go slower. I’d much rather get paid well and navigate intractable tech debt with zero pressure to work extra hours than move quickly and get side eyes for stopping at 5.
> how many meetings are needed to reach your actual goals?
Basically zero, other than requirements gathering meetings with customers, the number of which are required is independent of tech stack.
Other meetings will probably happen due to process choices made by your org, but they mostly don’t (1) depend on tech stack, or (2) contribute to reaching the actual goals, except insofar as they are necessary to clear arbitrary impediments also created by organizational process decisions.
> I care about the choices bc the wrong ones create problems which require more typing, or typing at night.
Unreasonable working hour demands are not a product of tech stack choices, they are a product of management disrespect for staff.
You cannot avoid them by choosing the right tech stack.
Basically zero, other than requirements gathering meetings with customers, the number of which are required is independent of tech stack.
Other meetings will probably happen due to process choices made by your org, but they mostly don’t (1) depend on tech stack, or (2) contribute to reaching the actual goals, except insofar as they are necessary to clear arbitrary impediments also created by organizational process decisions.
> I care about the choices bc the wrong ones create problems which require more typing, or typing at night.
Unreasonable working hour demands are not a product of tech stack choices, they are a product of management disrespect for staff.
You cannot avoid them by choosing the right tech stack.
>Who cares what the stack is and how many layers of libraries there are?
Exactly.
Can I get on with this person who will be my boss and these other people who I will sit next to for eight hours a day? Do I prefer JavaScript or Python?
One of those questions is much more important than the other.
Exactly.
Can I get on with this person who will be my boss and these other people who I will sit next to for eight hours a day? Do I prefer JavaScript or Python?
One of those questions is much more important than the other.
I'm not even that old, but a pattern I noticed when I've interviewed in the past couple years is that maybe I'm applying for the wrong jobs because my would-be peers ask questions that seem irrelevant and seem confused that I don't have answers ready for "what frameworks do you use? Which languages do you like? etc.", but then I get in an interview with someone who would be above me and we have a great chat about architecture and design and things that are actually relevant.
I'm here to build a house, I want to talk about the architecture of structural design of it. I don't care what brand air nailer you guys use.
I'm here to build a house, I want to talk about the architecture of structural design of it. I don't care what brand air nailer you guys use.
My company has a kind of cultural disease where everyone aspires to be an architecture astronaut, people with an ounce of talent or ambition learn to treat code as beneath them, consequently we get beautiful design docs and a garbage codebase. For that reason I would fail any candidate who displayed this attitude. I expect senior candidates to raise the bar on quality and craftsmanship in implementation, and I’ve met plenty who do. YMMV.
I don’t think being a framework partisan is a particularly good sign, but at least it shows you have some experience and reflection and taste with regard to the tensions involved in making things that run.
I don’t think being a framework partisan is a particularly good sign, but at least it shows you have some experience and reflection and taste with regard to the tensions involved in making things that run.
I'm also an old fogey. When anyone says claims they or their title is "software architect", it usually means they're full of shit. The best "software architects" I've ever known typically call themselves programmers.
> The best "software architects" I've ever known typically call themselves programmers.
Or "hackers", but then you gotta resort to "ageism" in order to discern if they're actually a real old-school hacker or a modern wannabe hacker "script kiddie". ;)
Or "hackers", but then you gotta resort to "ageism" in order to discern if they're actually a real old-school hacker or a modern wannabe hacker "script kiddie". ;)
I'm one of four engineers at my company. I don't have the luxury of offloading my job to someone else. Also I really feel like you're projecting attitudes that I (at least didn't mean to) portray. I design the dog food, and then I make the dog food.
I have the exact same experience. Many would-be peers simply don't get it when I have very little interest in the type of framework or language they use. They take it as a sign that I cannot contribute to the team readily even though they acknowledge I have more experience.
Ecosystem matters a lot. For example, React might be overkill for a lot of projects but it’s relatively easy to hire for and there are a lot of drop-in tools and components available.
[deleted]
Not sure what kind of work you do but whenever I hear frontend devs don't use a framework/view library I have a difficult time taking them seriously. More often than not that means they're using some mess of a pseudo-framework that they created themselves.
When you now have things like TypeScript that allow you to define interfaces completely external from your logic you have already addressed half of what frameworks solve for without writing a single line of code. After that the only things left that frameworks provide are APIs and composition. If you know what you are doing you define your APIs first in consideration for the business logic and save composition for the final step after all other logic is written. Then you can make any adjustments to your internal APIs as necessary to glue things together. No framework is needed, minimal refactoring, and a smaller code base with less complexity because a generic framework doesn’t know your business requirements in advance.
> “A younger-looking face creates impressions of higher physical and mental fitness,” the authors write. “Our results suggest that these impressions may indeed be a powerful driver of favorable employment outcomes.”
It is possible that there are other explanations. Older developers may want better salaries, better working conditions, be harder to manipulate, etc.
Good leadership is going to hire people that fits in the culture of the company and have the needed skills. Whenever the candidate is younger or older does not matter.
Bad leadership wants cheap employees that obey orders and don't challenge authority. Younger, more inexperienced developers will fit this category, even if they are technically skilled.
This is as good a theory that any other one to explain the fact that recruiters want younger developers.
It is possible that there are other explanations. Older developers may want better salaries, better working conditions, be harder to manipulate, etc.
Good leadership is going to hire people that fits in the culture of the company and have the needed skills. Whenever the candidate is younger or older does not matter.
Bad leadership wants cheap employees that obey orders and don't challenge authority. Younger, more inexperienced developers will fit this category, even if they are technically skilled.
This is as good a theory that any other one to explain the fact that recruiters want younger developers.
> better salaries, better working conditions, be harder to manipulate
That's me. I only 36 and I absolutely do not buy the corporate bullshit that someone's product is going to "change the world" through some incremental improvement of some software as a service. I am strongly against exploitative business models. And I know how much I am worth. When interviewing I like to give the CEO a little push back and see how they respond. I'm not going to work for someone who gets flustered when I question their thinking.
I will however provide a lot of value for a team I am comfortable with.
That's me. I only 36 and I absolutely do not buy the corporate bullshit that someone's product is going to "change the world" through some incremental improvement of some software as a service. I am strongly against exploitative business models. And I know how much I am worth. When interviewing I like to give the CEO a little push back and see how they respond. I'm not going to work for someone who gets flustered when I question their thinking.
I will however provide a lot of value for a team I am comfortable with.
Nothing else in the resume changed, though. Just the picture. The age was still listed truthfully, demands didn't change, and the experience was the same.
If bad leadership wanted cheap employees, that is easily filtered by hiring folks with less experience (for example) because those folks tend to be younger.
If bad leadership wanted cheap employees, that is easily filtered by hiring folks with less experience (for example) because those folks tend to be younger.
I'm kinda with you there. There are more jobs for junior developers, and higher salaries for senior ones. That kinda correlates with age too. If I see someone 60 in tech, I assume they're either:
- A wizard, who spent 40 years knee-deep in technology.
- Someone with management experience.
- A flake-out who never did either.
I'm also less likely to cold-call someone more intimidating for random job screening, but more likely to reach out for something aligned to their skill set.
- A wizard, who spent 40 years knee-deep in technology.
- Someone with management experience.
- A flake-out who never did either.
I'm also less likely to cold-call someone more intimidating for random job screening, but more likely to reach out for something aligned to their skill set.
For front-end dev - some older developers are really tired of the constant churn. This can be a good thing if you can / already are off the endless new frontend bandwagon. But since a lot of junior folks are into the "latest and greatest" it can be very hard internally (and cement a perhaps resistance to change stereotype).
I'm a bit tired of folks saying older devs are not resistant to change. Reality - with experience some stuff just seems faddy at times over the course of longer career arcs. So yes, older devs can be bit resistant to jumping onto the latest bandwagon.
I'm a bit tired of folks saying older devs are not resistant to change. Reality - with experience some stuff just seems faddy at times over the course of longer career arcs. So yes, older devs can be bit resistant to jumping onto the latest bandwagon.
If someone learned lisp (or ML) in the 80s, very little from the “cutting edge” of languages would seem new at all. Likewise, most current framework trends have been around for decades.
I think the Junior mistake is searching for a programming panacea. While lots of bad designs exist, perfect designs do not.
I think the Junior mistake is searching for a programming panacea. While lots of bad designs exist, perfect designs do not.
Exactly this - people spend more time talking about frameworks than solving problems sometimes - the framework will not solve it and people have built huge / successful apps w rudimentary stack
learned lisp and ML in the 80s. agree completely.
Do you think the fads will come and go with lower frequency as more time passes? Software engineering is a young field. I don't hear a lot about, for instance, fads in aerospace engineering but that could be because I hear little about it in general. Perhaps software engineering is always going to be "faddy" because of how flexible and reconfigurable software is in general.
I think it’s the latter. Aerospace engineers do have fads like the aerospike rocket engine. Nobody’s launched one (that I know of) because it simply doesn’t work yet. The cost of failure is just too catastrophic. Instead, there’s a focus on the tradeoffs and lots of experimentation to get it right.
In software, if the prototype didn’t work, you tweak it and try again or even deploy with known issues and fix in prod later (looking at you game companies). If you had to throw away all your code and start over completely with each iteration like you do with rockets, you’d see more discussion and testing out earlier (in fact, you tend to see this more in critical software —- eg, the software that controls those rockets).
Finally, very few companies throw as much money behind business software as they do at rockets. I’d bet heavily that v8, .net, hotspot, or even gcc (metaphorical engines for your code) have only a fraction of the resources spent on a new rocket design.
In software, if the prototype didn’t work, you tweak it and try again or even deploy with known issues and fix in prod later (looking at you game companies). If you had to throw away all your code and start over completely with each iteration like you do with rockets, you’d see more discussion and testing out earlier (in fact, you tend to see this more in critical software —- eg, the software that controls those rockets).
Finally, very few companies throw as much money behind business software as they do at rockets. I’d bet heavily that v8, .net, hotspot, or even gcc (metaphorical engines for your code) have only a fraction of the resources spent on a new rocket design.
> The cost of failure is just too catastrophic
Yes. Real engineers are responsible for life and death decisions in their designs. Software developers for the most part are not, and where they are, you don't see fads you see them using very long-proven and careful approaches.
Yes. Real engineers are responsible for life and death decisions in their designs. Software developers for the most part are not, and where they are, you don't see fads you see them using very long-proven and careful approaches.
One thing - software engineering is harder to measure than hardware. Have a new wing design ? Amazing strength at low weight - you can actually test your design and measure if it’s better.
Software engineering is much muddier
Software engineering is much muddier
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That seems like something that would already be reflected on people's resumes, so it seems odd that a different photo would make a difference if that's the concern.
I'm just now coming out of my not-junior-but-not-senior period of overengineering and wish there were more older devs in my shop to consort with instead of a bunch of other not-junior-but-not-quite-senior devs (if we're being serious and not using senior to mean "I've just been doing this a long time" instead of "I've been doing thing a long time and I've learned from my experiences and here's what specifically").
55 year old software engineer , with extensive RF/analog background with dual EE/CE degrees. I can’t begin to count the number of interviews gleaned from LinkedIn where the first 45 minutes of the interview was a late 20’s early 30’s person telling me all about their wonderful work and how great they are. Not a word about the job, nothing about the company, all about them and the places they’ve worked, what they have done. Just who the hell is being interviewed? When this happens, it is all I can do not to walk out of the interview or kill the call/Zoom session.
The moment some places figure out you’re over 45, it is over. Except for very forward looking start-ups who want to grow very quickly.
That is where I have been working for the past 10 years..best time of my life. But I also know, this is my last employer.
The moment some places figure out you’re over 45, it is over. Except for very forward looking start-ups who want to grow very quickly.
That is where I have been working for the past 10 years..best time of my life. But I also know, this is my last employer.
This.
I had an interview for a "digital interactive agency" where a 24-year-old lectured me this and that and how great she was. She was flabbergasted to find out I had more people working under me than were in her entire company.
At the end of all this she says--"Do you think you are ready to step up to X quality?"
I had just finished my yearly reading of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (ZAMM), and I was pretty annoyed with her, so I asked, "How do you define quality?"
ZAMM is about a philosophy called the metaphysics of quality-- I knew that no matter what she said, I would have an advanced argument from ZAMM to belittle her with (the interview was just a formality at this point).
She replied, "Hmmm, I'll have to think about that." And I never heard from this individual or agency again.
I would like to think that day she learned not to say stupid things. Not to insult people over when you really don't even know what you're saying.
But I doubt it.
I had an interview for a "digital interactive agency" where a 24-year-old lectured me this and that and how great she was. She was flabbergasted to find out I had more people working under me than were in her entire company.
At the end of all this she says--"Do you think you are ready to step up to X quality?"
I had just finished my yearly reading of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (ZAMM), and I was pretty annoyed with her, so I asked, "How do you define quality?"
ZAMM is about a philosophy called the metaphysics of quality-- I knew that no matter what she said, I would have an advanced argument from ZAMM to belittle her with (the interview was just a formality at this point).
She replied, "Hmmm, I'll have to think about that." And I never heard from this individual or agency again.
I would like to think that day she learned not to say stupid things. Not to insult people over when you really don't even know what you're saying.
But I doubt it.
I realize replying to yourself demonstrates poor taste... But I'd like to add that at the time of the interview I had software I had personally designed at companies like DirecTV, Samsung, LG, Apple, Microsoft, Intel, Google and Applied Materials. I literally had products at Crestron, Denon and Monster, and one product that could be purchased nationally at Best Buy.
I don't know how many offers other people are getting, but I'm 52 and I get on average about 8 messages from recruiters every day. Maybe that's because I look younger in my profile picture... :D
>I don't know how many offers other people are getting, but I'm 52 and I get on average about 8 messages from recruiters every day. Maybe that's because I look younger in my profile picture... :D
Messages from recruiters !== job offers. These things are completely automated and generated by AI at this point. I get dozens a week, and the rare one or two I respond to are met with total silence as they are being sent to thousands of people.
Messages from recruiters !== job offers. These things are completely automated and generated by AI at this point. I get dozens a week, and the rare one or two I respond to are met with total silence as they are being sent to thousands of people.
Mid 40s. I get about 3 per week. A few years ago it was a lot more. But I can’t blame my photo, since I haven’t changed it since 2008. Out of ambivalence, not cunning. Perhaps it’s because I’m specific about the somewhat niche area I work in (not web) or perhaps those resume gaps I’ve always been cavalier about are finally catching up with me. Or maybe I should drop the 1990s era from my resume since that gives my age away.
Agreed. I just went through finding a new job, and I was a little worried about it, given everything I've heard about ageism in this industry. Far from that, I had loads of recruiters contacting me, and on the whole this job search was the easiest and fastest I've ever had. One interviewer commented on my age, which felt a little odd since it was something he brought up, and not part of the conversation. But, I don't feel like it hurt me, even in that situation. People were generally very cool.
At my old job, a YC startup, I was the oldest person on staff. Older than the founders, the VPs, or any of the developers by at least a few years. But, I can also remember being the youngest person at my first job, and on balance, I think my age was more of a professional liability for me back then than it is now. It wasn't a huge issue in either scenario.
At my old job, a YC startup, I was the oldest person on staff. Older than the founders, the VPs, or any of the developers by at least a few years. But, I can also remember being the youngest person at my first job, and on balance, I think my age was more of a professional liability for me back then than it is now. It wasn't a huge issue in either scenario.
This might be somewhat of an aberration (I hope it isn't, as I'm in the same boat, but it might be). A bunch of people got laid off during the pandemic and now everything is opening up and everyone is hiring and they've become more desperate for talent.
At least in theory. I have noticed a hesitance on some employers to actually bump their ranges for wages, and have had several recruiters tell me their client's budget for the role is criminally low, no wonder they're having trouble hiring people.
At least in theory. I have noticed a hesitance on some employers to actually bump their ranges for wages, and have had several recruiters tell me their client's budget for the role is criminally low, no wonder they're having trouble hiring people.
I get messages from recruiters based on technologies I haven't used in a decade (Android primarily). It's all generic enough that I assume the people have no specific interest in me, they are just casting a super wide net and may not even want to interview me if I responded.
I get messages from recruiters based on the very last thing I'm doing, even if I just started doing it in the last 6 months. I got the impression recruiters rarely read the LinkedIn profiles.
I assume that either most of the people decline right off the bat, or they have a very low cost of processing candidates, because that surely doesn't seem to be a very precise way to look for the right people.
I assume that either most of the people decline right off the bat, or they have a very low cost of processing candidates, because that surely doesn't seem to be a very precise way to look for the right people.
>based on technologies I haven't used in a decade
Pretty sure most recruiters don't read beyond "keyword exists".
$ grep android resume.txt && send_email
Pretty sure most recruiters don't read beyond "keyword exists".
$ grep android resume.txt && send_email
I think last I got any message from a recruiter was more than 6 months ago. Granted I have nothing in my profile besides photo and a listing of the companies I worked for and position. Plus some endorsements and recommendations. But I would have expected that any recruiter could infer from the companies I worked for and endorsements enough. Maybe just an European thing. I'm mid 30s and have always been a top performer. All jobs I had so far were me applying on the company website. I don't understand where's that shortage I keep hearing about.
There was a mid-stage startup I was at that was happy to hire engineers in their 50s. The one caveat is they still need to be able to do the standard tech whiteboard interview.
> In terms of practical implications, the authors say these results reconfirm why photographs are usually absent from traditional resumes or CVs. As such, they suggest that removing photos from LinkedIn might make job-seeking fairer. The lack of photos might cause recruiters to focus more on information that is more relevant to the job.
I would be curious if Linkedin penalizes profiles missing a photo in their algorithm or whatever. I.e. I seem to recall getting badgered to add a photo when I didn't have one, and the implication that my profile was "incomplete." I suppose a way around this would be a completely unrelated photo, or a drawing of yourself, etc.
I'd love to see the same type of experiment with the person's race and gender, but that's probably too inflammatory of an experiment.
I would be curious if Linkedin penalizes profiles missing a photo in their algorithm or whatever. I.e. I seem to recall getting badgered to add a photo when I didn't have one, and the implication that my profile was "incomplete." I suppose a way around this would be a completely unrelated photo, or a drawing of yourself, etc.
I'd love to see the same type of experiment with the person's race and gender, but that's probably too inflammatory of an experiment.
I recall reading that the effect on gender has been documented in classical musician auditions (women were selected more frequently with the introduction of blind auditions)
Frequently cited but a fatally flawed study:
> The first thing they noticed is that the raw tabulations showed women doing worse behind the screens. But perhaps, Ms. Goldin and Ms. Rouse explained, blind auditions “lowered the average quality of female auditionees.” To control for ability, they analyzed a small subset of candidates who took part in both blind and nonblind auditions in three of the eight orchestras.
>The result was a tangle of ambiguous, contradictory trends. The screens seemed to help women in preliminary audition rounds but men in semifinal rounds. None of the findings were strong enough to draw broad conclusions one way or the other.
>So where did Ms. Goldin and Ms. Rouse get their totemic conclusion that blind auditions dramatically improved the success of women candidates? After warning that their findings were not statistically significant, they declared them to be “economically significant.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/blind-spots-in-the-blind-auditi...
> The first thing they noticed is that the raw tabulations showed women doing worse behind the screens. But perhaps, Ms. Goldin and Ms. Rouse explained, blind auditions “lowered the average quality of female auditionees.” To control for ability, they analyzed a small subset of candidates who took part in both blind and nonblind auditions in three of the eight orchestras.
>The result was a tangle of ambiguous, contradictory trends. The screens seemed to help women in preliminary audition rounds but men in semifinal rounds. None of the findings were strong enough to draw broad conclusions one way or the other.
>So where did Ms. Goldin and Ms. Rouse get their totemic conclusion that blind auditions dramatically improved the success of women candidates? After warning that their findings were not statistically significant, they declared them to be “economically significant.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/blind-spots-in-the-blind-auditi...
You know, for the longest time, the fact that I look quite young for my age bothered me (I'm in my early 40s and recently someone I'd just met exclaimed they thought I was 25). But ageism in the industry is starting to make me grateful for my luck in the genetic lottery...
At 20,I grew a beard so would be taken seriously.
Now I shave to be taken seriously.
Now I shave to be taken seriously.
I'm 26 and I still can't grow a beard. I still have some patches that hair doesn't even grow in.
But at least I'll have a full head of hair by 55 so that's cool.
But at least I'll have a full head of hair by 55 so that's cool.
Why is this controversial? Such a bias will almost always exist. There is an anecdote from Hamming's famous "You and your research" [0] talk which I'll reproduce in full:
> Another personality defect is ego assertion and I'll speak in this case of my own experience. I came from Los Alamos and in the early days I was using a machine in New York at 590 Madison Avenue where we merely rented time. I was still dressing in western clothes, big slash pockets, a bolo and all those things. I vaguely noticed that I was not getting as good service as other people. So I set out to measure. You came in and you waited for your turn; I felt I was not getting a fair deal. I said to myself, ``Why? No Vice President at IBM said, `Give Hamming a bad time'. It is the secretaries at the bottom who are doing this. When a slot appears, they'll rush to find someone to slip in, but they go out and find somebody else. Now, why? I haven't mistreated them.'' Answer, I wasn't dressing the way they felt somebody in that situation should. It came down to just that - I wasn't dressing properly. I had to make the decision - was I going to assert my ego and dress the way I wanted to and have it steadily drain my effort from my professional life, or was I going to appear to conform better? I decided I would make an effort to appear to conform properly. The moment I did, I got much better service. And now, as an old colorful character, I get better service than other people.
Anecdotally, I've been on the job search train recently. Even though recruiters say that dress code is "casual", what I've found is that if I take some time to wear fitting clothes and make sure that my video background is either blurred out or nicer looking, the results are very different.
[0]: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html
> Another personality defect is ego assertion and I'll speak in this case of my own experience. I came from Los Alamos and in the early days I was using a machine in New York at 590 Madison Avenue where we merely rented time. I was still dressing in western clothes, big slash pockets, a bolo and all those things. I vaguely noticed that I was not getting as good service as other people. So I set out to measure. You came in and you waited for your turn; I felt I was not getting a fair deal. I said to myself, ``Why? No Vice President at IBM said, `Give Hamming a bad time'. It is the secretaries at the bottom who are doing this. When a slot appears, they'll rush to find someone to slip in, but they go out and find somebody else. Now, why? I haven't mistreated them.'' Answer, I wasn't dressing the way they felt somebody in that situation should. It came down to just that - I wasn't dressing properly. I had to make the decision - was I going to assert my ego and dress the way I wanted to and have it steadily drain my effort from my professional life, or was I going to appear to conform better? I decided I would make an effort to appear to conform properly. The moment I did, I got much better service. And now, as an old colorful character, I get better service than other people.
Anecdotally, I've been on the job search train recently. Even though recruiters say that dress code is "casual", what I've found is that if I take some time to wear fitting clothes and make sure that my video background is either blurred out or nicer looking, the results are very different.
[0]: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html
I am much more aware of appearing attractive, fitter, and younger to other tech peers as I age. I’m curious if anyone else feels this pressure?
i noticed it absolutely helps. i get flooded with recruiter messages. it's a bit like on dating apps - the first appearance matters.
Also I am conscious of not using my not very dank “can has cheezburger” memes
I have been following a simple pattern of learning a new tech stack every five years. It's not easy, but that's what pays the bills and keeps me in the game.
> Those stereotypes include being seen as less competent and less adaptable, particularly when it comes to using new technologies.
Anecdotally, I have encountered the latter a few times. I've known older developers (> 40) who didn't want to move to Angular/React and would rather have stayed on jQuery (for complicated brand new web apps) or didn't want to learn beyond Java 8.
Anecdotally, I have encountered the latter a few times. I've known older developers (> 40) who didn't want to move to Angular/React and would rather have stayed on jQuery (for complicated brand new web apps) or didn't want to learn beyond Java 8.
Counterpoint is if there was any reason to? I find both jQuery and React solve very different problems. Simply moving to React because it’s what’s everyone is doing would be just as wrong as sticking to jQuery because they refuse to learn new things.
You're right, jQuery alone, even when it was all the rage, wasn't enough for a frontend application.
Backbone, Marionette, eventually Angular and all the rest were huge improvements. You needed a message passing / routing framework, and the new frameworks have consolidated that and improved on it.
Older developers are sometimes more conservative. Sorry. And age leads to cognitive decline. Reality is reality. I'm an older engineer, and even if things are stacked against me, I'm ok with that. It's a consequence of the brutal shift in cultural education around the craft. I hope more creative individuals flourish.
Backbone, Marionette, eventually Angular and all the rest were huge improvements. You needed a message passing / routing framework, and the new frameworks have consolidated that and improved on it.
Older developers are sometimes more conservative. Sorry. And age leads to cognitive decline. Reality is reality. I'm an older engineer, and even if things are stacked against me, I'm ok with that. It's a consequence of the brutal shift in cultural education around the craft. I hope more creative individuals flourish.
I've known developers like that in their 20s. They get comfortable in their niche and have been doing it that way for so long they resist anything different.
Be wary. This can happen to us all.
Be wary. This can happen to us all.
43 here. Done some Angular projects years ago (when it was quite different). Worked on a bit of React. A few years ago started playing around with Vue.js
Honestly I think it's an error to assume that everything needs to be in React. Even with Hooks it can be overly complicated for many projects. The new thing seems to be Svelte and I would try to make that work or Vue before going with React even though I know React is vastly more popular.
But you can build with vanilla JS and it can work out fine. Especially if you have control over the UI design and create something straightforward without a lot of state interactions. I mean React is great and can be a good idea for many projects but I think taking it as an assumption is more of a persistent trend than a totally empirical choice.
Honestly I think it's an error to assume that everything needs to be in React. Even with Hooks it can be overly complicated for many projects. The new thing seems to be Svelte and I would try to make that work or Vue before going with React even though I know React is vastly more popular.
But you can build with vanilla JS and it can work out fine. Especially if you have control over the UI design and create something straightforward without a lot of state interactions. I mean React is great and can be a good idea for many projects but I think taking it as an assumption is more of a persistent trend than a totally empirical choice.
My experience as well. On top of that, those types of engineers usually have a terrible and arrogant attitude and often attribute any disagreement as "ageism."
> didn't want to learn
This right here is the problem. A lifetime commitment to learning, especially when it is inconvenient, is a requirement to be successful in software development.
This right here is the problem. A lifetime commitment to learning, especially when it is inconvenient, is a requirement to be successful in software development.
I never make a secret of my age, but I am also not looking for a job.
Corporations are obviously terrified of us oldsters. Not 100% sure I know all the reasons.
I was just reading another HN front page story, about this poor woman that was fired for not writing an app that really required an experienced engineer.
Lot of that, going around. Wonder why?
Corporations are obviously terrified of us oldsters. Not 100% sure I know all the reasons.
I was just reading another HN front page story, about this poor woman that was fired for not writing an app that really required an experienced engineer.
Lot of that, going around. Wonder why?
On the whole we are less likely to advantage taken of from a less need to prove yourself.
IMO so much of age bias is because so many people are in terrible physical shape as they age.
If you are visibly in really good shape, I think you get a bias in your favor as an older person.
Not really an age bias but a perfectly rational probability of a lack of energy bias.
If you are visibly in really good shape, I think you get a bias in your favor as an older person.
Not really an age bias but a perfectly rational probability of a lack of energy bias.
For a sedentary job there's no need to be fit. Some people are the weight equivalent of racists - maybe fat fascists? fat nazis?
Which is why I don't have a photo on Linked in.
IMHO the EU should ban the practice unless is for models / Actors.
IMHO the EU should ban the practice unless is for models / Actors.
Unsurprising. Older job seekers switch jobs less often, so recruiters target young ones to maximize ROI.
Reading about all the ageism anecdotes on HN over the years really pushed me towards self employment. I'm still in my 30s, but my 40s will hit sooner than I think and I don't want to be caught with my pants down.
Older devs should just work on their own ecommerce stuff and squeeze expenses to maximize their runway until they takeoff. Interviewing is a waste of time past a certain age - I was 53 the last time I got hired.
Or none at all.
I think the underlying reason is when you have far more experience than your future boss they are intimidated by you.