Bouba/Kiki Effect(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Bouba/Kiki Effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect
97 comments
That's exactly what I was wondering. Thank you.
And I agree with you, Baba is you is awesome! I really like Hempuli touch also in Noita.
I was just coming here to say that! Hempuli studies psychology in uni, he's got always interesting stuff to say about brain quirks and psychological effects.
There's a Tom Scott video about this with some further academic references: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TDIAObsqcs
Bouba/kiki is most likely a specific instance of the more general notion of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_symbolism. Another well-known cross-linguistic association is the one between front vowels and small objects on one hand, and back vowels and large objects on the other.
Bouba/kiki is most likely a specific instance of the more general notion of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_symbolism. Another well-known cross-linguistic association is the one between front vowels and small objects on one hand, and back vowels and large objects on the other.
'Symbolism' is a terrible word to describe something like this. Symbols are convention and can change. This is the opposite - an innate cross-sensory connection that will not change.
Agreed. The presymbolic term people might be looking for is "resonance." Read early JJ Gibson (who introduced affordances). He talks about this dichotomy.
Charles Sanders Peirce attempted to address this problem with his semiotic[1]. Sadly he never reached a conclusive result, but I find his work in this area to be extremely enlightening and also quite novel even today.
[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/peirce-semiotics/
[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/peirce-semiotics/
Does a lion symbolize something fierce? The Book of Isaiah notwithstanding, I doubt that symbol will change.
A lion IS something fierce. But only its use in western history make it a symbol of that. There's plenty of other fierce creatures (e.g. an orca, a crocadile, a poisonous frog) that wouldn't conjure the same symbolism.
It’s structurally the same. You can choose a lion, a wolf, a shark, etc, but it is not arbitrary that you choose some such animal to symbolize ferocity, and not a rabbit.
There’s some bias to associate sounds with particular images or concepts, but we have different languages because we don’t choose the same words.
If anything, the consistency of symbolism is much greater than inter-linguistic consistency of how words sound.
There’s some bias to associate sounds with particular images or concepts, but we have different languages because we don’t choose the same words.
If anything, the consistency of symbolism is much greater than inter-linguistic consistency of how words sound.
I don't understand what point you are trying to make. You seem to have made exactly mine. Symbolism is a choice. The Bouba/Kiki thing is not.
they're arguing that symbols are not arbitrary, which is true but I think they inferred that you were making that argument as opposed to the softer "symbols are conventional" one that you did make. Convention does not necessarily imply arbitrariness.
If symbols were arbitrary then maybe a rabbit could symbolise ferocity, but they are instead more like metaphors that need to tie into something concrete.
If symbols were arbitrary then maybe a rabbit could symbolise ferocity, but they are instead more like metaphors that need to tie into something concrete.
Thanks, this is really helpful. I did in fact think that the use of convention implied more arbitrariness. The convention that we drive on the right can be reversed. But I suppose there can be conventions which are partially constrained by some underlying phenomenon.
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> The Book of Isaiah notwithstanding
For those unfamiliar with the Bible: hyperpape is referring to Isaiah 11:6–7, 65:25, prophecies of the time when God assumes more direct kingship over the earth, featuring herbivorous, peaceful lions.
Notwithstanding this, Isaiah does feature lions as fierce beasts in more places: 15:9, 21:8, 30:6, 31:4, 35:9, 38:13.
For those unfamiliar with the Bible: hyperpape is referring to Isaiah 11:6–7, 65:25, prophecies of the time when God assumes more direct kingship over the earth, featuring herbivorous, peaceful lions.
Notwithstanding this, Isaiah does feature lions as fierce beasts in more places: 15:9, 21:8, 30:6, 31:4, 35:9, 38:13.
I just watched this video a few hours ago because youtube randomly recommended it to me.
I wonder if it's just the Baader–Meinhof effect or if the post was caused by the same youtube algorithm.
I wonder if it's just the Baader–Meinhof effect or if the post was caused by the same youtube algorithm.
i would use the term frequency illusion, as baader-meinhof refers to a specific instance of someone who coined the term, and are members of a former west german left extremist terrorist group which actually killed people. pretty weird that it continues to be in use, it'd be as if we discovered this effect today and called it the taliban effect or the stalin gulag effect.
I see nothing wrong with the examples you provide.
Why? yes they should be remembered for the atrocities they did … why change the name?
I’m always worried that if we engage in this type of cancelling we will end up with vilification and people will forget that Stalin and Hitler were also just people (and not evil looking demons).
The Taliban got a dedication on an Apollo mission and in one of the Rambo movies … now these things tend to be forgotten. It’s always better to remember and remind people about the potential of evil we (you and me) can do to other people. Leave the name, yet make sure that the article and every mention refers also to the R A F.
I’m always worried that if we engage in this type of cancelling we will end up with vilification and people will forget that Stalin and Hitler were also just people (and not evil looking demons).
The Taliban got a dedication on an Apollo mission and in one of the Rambo movies … now these things tend to be forgotten. It’s always better to remember and remind people about the potential of evil we (you and me) can do to other people. Leave the name, yet make sure that the article and every mention refers also to the R A F.
I've seen a few time things like that, you often see short and weird videos in the millions of views with everyone saying in the comments that they came suddenly due to the algorithm. I've always had this theory that at some people people (or machines) realized that it's easier to push everyone to have the same tastes compared to catering to every single niche. I think it's an extension of that.
I've wondered if languages which "score" well in leveraging this sort of mapping just make it easier to juggle complex subjects by using more "efficient" parts of our mental stack that position conversation to go deeper on any point of interest just because it's less energy intensive or something along those lines. Something akin to a mental locality of concepts if you will.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect#Implications...
ps it's a joy to watch VS Ramachandran get excited about synesthesia, definitely worth hunting down videos of him on YouTube.
Yes, absolutely! I loved listening to the Reith lectures many, many years ago, when Vilayanur Ramachandran gave them. You can still listen to them here, http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/
In Lecture 4 (Purple Numbers and Sharp Cheese) he talks about the Kiki / Bouba effect. His enunciation is amazing.
In Lecture 4 (Purple Numbers and Sharp Cheese) he talks about the Kiki / Bouba effect. His enunciation is amazing.
I was not able to play the RealMedia streams from BBC, but here's an alternative link to lecture 4 at 15m01s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xttp5GpiVLs&list=PLez3PPtnpn...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xttp5GpiVLs&list=PLez3PPtnpn...
I wonder to what extent intra-language selection of synesthetic words occur along these lines when there are competing synonyms/alleles. Onomatopoetic words could be favored for instance, but also words that in written form look like the thing they're describing, e.g. (from the top of my head): "bomb", "locomotive", "ghost", "teeth" etc.
The primary author of the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar book series, Makino Seiichi, presents a related hypothesis about sound symbolism in Japanese. He identifies a pattern that "hard" sounds like K often appear with words associated with distance between the speaker and the subject, whereas sounds like N are associated with less distance.
For instance, the clause nominalizing particle KOTO expresses a more objective view compared to NO.
Piano-wo hiku-no ga taihen. (Playing the piano is difficult (for me, because of arthritis or whatever)).
Piano-wo hiku-koto ga taihen. (Playing the piano is difficult (as such, for humans)).
The Japanese onomatopoeia is full of this also. For instance something lightly rolling is korokoro, whereas gorogoro refers to heavy rolling.
Sparkling, glittering: kirakira (-suru).
Slithering, wriggling, sliding: nyoro-nyoro.
Another example of sound symbolism in the grammar: questions.
The ka particle is the most direct question marker. If, say, you're scolding a child and want to say "are you listening to me?" angrily: kiiteiru-ka?
A soft way, with a completely different nuance, would be: kiiteiru-no?
See? "ka" is a hard sound with an unvoiced consonant at the front, full of high frequency content, like an object breaking, whereas "no" is low frequency.
For instance, the clause nominalizing particle KOTO expresses a more objective view compared to NO.
Piano-wo hiku-no ga taihen. (Playing the piano is difficult (for me, because of arthritis or whatever)).
Piano-wo hiku-koto ga taihen. (Playing the piano is difficult (as such, for humans)).
The Japanese onomatopoeia is full of this also. For instance something lightly rolling is korokoro, whereas gorogoro refers to heavy rolling.
Sparkling, glittering: kirakira (-suru).
Slithering, wriggling, sliding: nyoro-nyoro.
Another example of sound symbolism in the grammar: questions.
The ka particle is the most direct question marker. If, say, you're scolding a child and want to say "are you listening to me?" angrily: kiiteiru-ka?
A soft way, with a completely different nuance, would be: kiiteiru-no?
See? "ka" is a hard sound with an unvoiced consonant at the front, full of high frequency content, like an object breaking, whereas "no" is low frequency.
But koko/kore/kono vs soko/sore/sono doesn’t seem to match that hypothesis. How do you make sure you’ve got enough examples to prove the argument?
That's not clear to me; I am not a researcher within the linguistic field.
What is clear is that the hypothesis cannot be some strawman like "every corner of the Japanese language exhibits hard/soft sound symbolism: every grammar construct, every vocabulary item, ...".
How much there has to be to separate a trend from coincidence is beyond me, but ways of quantifying it suggest themselves. For instance, frequency of occurrence of sound-symbolic constructs in speech.
Some pretty common devices fit this pattern. Another one is kara (strong assertion of causality) versus no de (weak assertion of causality). Words like koto, kara, keredomo and the question particle ka come up all the time, as do no, node, noni and so on.
What is clear is that the hypothesis cannot be some strawman like "every corner of the Japanese language exhibits hard/soft sound symbolism: every grammar construct, every vocabulary item, ...".
How much there has to be to separate a trend from coincidence is beyond me, but ways of quantifying it suggest themselves. For instance, frequency of occurrence of sound-symbolic constructs in speech.
Some pretty common devices fit this pattern. Another one is kara (strong assertion of causality) versus no de (weak assertion of causality). Words like koto, kara, keredomo and the question particle ka come up all the time, as do no, node, noni and so on.
The structure of the argument as presented in the book is
“we see this sound symbolism in onomatopoeia” and gives a very large list of examples, followed by “this can be used to explain other phenomenons such as [insert parents statement]”
You are right that it is interesting how and if ko-so-a-do fits this pattern, but I don’t think it’s a “gotcha” against sound symbolism in Japanese.
“we see this sound symbolism in onomatopoeia” and gives a very large list of examples, followed by “this can be used to explain other phenomenons such as [insert parents statement]”
You are right that it is interesting how and if ko-so-a-do fits this pattern, but I don’t think it’s a “gotcha” against sound symbolism in Japanese.
> Slithering, wriggling, sliding: nyoro-nyoro
Fun coincidence: snake in Zulu is inyoka or nyova
Fun coincidence: snake in Zulu is inyoka or nyova
This is how I remember numbers, spelling, and names sometimes. A sequence of numbers has a nice plot / wave to it. I can't say my mapping from these categories to shapes generalizes for anyone else and it hasn't made me particularly good at memory competitions. It's just how it works.
Also, memorizing a couple of credit card's information has saved me so much time -- highly recommended.
Also, memorizing a couple of credit card's information has saved me so much time -- highly recommended.
This is intriguing, can you describe in more detail how you map a series of numbers to a shape/sound?
like is 1234 a slope /
?
like is 1234 a slope /
?
It sounds like synesthesia. Some people see the year as ring-shaped in their head. The "visualization" is consistent during the lifetime and can help memorizing dates.
I don't have this, though I do have a consistent "visualization" of numbers under one hundred (and, yes, months, and days of months, and weeks) since very young. Probably helps a bit to memorize some stuff, though I can't compare with the same me deprived of this view. I'm not great at remembering birthdays but not terrible either.
People with such visualizations don't even always realize not all people see them the same way, or at all for that matter.
I don't have this, though I do have a consistent "visualization" of numbers under one hundred (and, yes, months, and days of months, and weeks) since very young. Probably helps a bit to memorize some stuff, though I can't compare with the same me deprived of this view. I'm not great at remembering birthdays but not terrible either.
People with such visualizations don't even always realize not all people see them the same way, or at all for that matter.
does it always have to be a ring? I've always imagined a year vertically/top down. Each month a slice. Also alphabet letters in color. Each letter having a distinct color.
Nope, it doesn't need to be a ring.
I was deep into synesthesia stuff when I worked at UCSD and had a friend participate in an experiment at VS Ramachandran's lab and one of the neat things is that a lot of the commonalities are culturally or temporally specific.
Many of the people with numeric synesthesia use a ring because they resemble CLOCKS! 1-12 is a common pattern and most people with synesthesia that grew up with this kind of clock have the same pattern for the first 12 numbers, but after that they tend to have their own patterns they develop.
This is true for other forms of synesthesia as well, there's not a single "way" but more a categorical set of shared characteristics, usually derived from their surroundings, as this isn't something people get taught to manage or take advantage of, but some folks naturally do. It's truly fascinating.
It sounds like you grew up with more calendars than round clocks, or an agenda/diary of some sort, or maybe it comes from something else - think about it, I'd love to know if you can place it!
It definitely sounds like you have some form of synesthesia.
I was deep into synesthesia stuff when I worked at UCSD and had a friend participate in an experiment at VS Ramachandran's lab and one of the neat things is that a lot of the commonalities are culturally or temporally specific.
Many of the people with numeric synesthesia use a ring because they resemble CLOCKS! 1-12 is a common pattern and most people with synesthesia that grew up with this kind of clock have the same pattern for the first 12 numbers, but after that they tend to have their own patterns they develop.
This is true for other forms of synesthesia as well, there's not a single "way" but more a categorical set of shared characteristics, usually derived from their surroundings, as this isn't something people get taught to manage or take advantage of, but some folks naturally do. It's truly fascinating.
It sounds like you grew up with more calendars than round clocks, or an agenda/diary of some sort, or maybe it comes from something else - think about it, I'd love to know if you can place it!
It definitely sounds like you have some form of synesthesia.
So couple of things might have helped shape the way I assign colors or structure to things. At least that's my theory - For numbers and letters, I think that might've come from pre-school alphabet or numbers book. I've always pictured the letter 'A' as always being yellow. B was always red , then C was green, D was orange , E as kind of purple, F as pink and so on. For numbers Zero was always white, 1 being black, 5 being bluish.
For time scale - I grew up in the late 80. So planning and scheduling was always done on a wall mounted calendar in my parent's kitchen or mom's day planner. So I think the concept of a year/month/hours in a day where always superimposed in my head as either a grid pattern for the month like any other calendar , or up/down rectangular scale for hours in a day or clock. Same goes on how I visualize a year. Priors years are just vertical block on the left of the current year block. Future years were on the right of the current year. Same for decades. Direction & distance were always like a measuring ruler going either left or right.
For time scale - I grew up in the late 80. So planning and scheduling was always done on a wall mounted calendar in my parent's kitchen or mom's day planner. So I think the concept of a year/month/hours in a day where always superimposed in my head as either a grid pattern for the month like any other calendar , or up/down rectangular scale for hours in a day or clock. Same goes on how I visualize a year. Priors years are just vertical block on the left of the current year block. Future years were on the right of the current year. Same for decades. Direction & distance were always like a measuring ruler going either left or right.
That's fascinating, thanks so much for sharing, definitely sounds like synesthesia - I've known several people who've had various types of synesthesia, though none that were alphanumerical, it's always fascinating to learn how wildly different people's experiences are with just... living :)
Do you have any interesting color overlaps between letters and numbers? I'm noticing that the fifth letter E (I'm assuming english, apologies if not!) is of a similar shade (purple / blue) as the number five!
One of the canonical tests to "prove" synesthesia is real involved putting a bunch of 5s and Ss randomly on a page and those with synesthesia could quickly distinguish between the two. It's always fascinating that the shape of the letter/number wasn't part (necessarily) of the color sense, and that they still stayed distinct, so just curious if you've noticed any overlaps/influences between letters and numbers or if they tend to tickle a totally different color sense.
Do you have any interesting color overlaps between letters and numbers? I'm noticing that the fifth letter E (I'm assuming english, apologies if not!) is of a similar shade (purple / blue) as the number five!
One of the canonical tests to "prove" synesthesia is real involved putting a bunch of 5s and Ss randomly on a page and those with synesthesia could quickly distinguish between the two. It's always fascinating that the shape of the letter/number wasn't part (necessarily) of the color sense, and that they still stayed distinct, so just curious if you've noticed any overlaps/influences between letters and numbers or if they tend to tickle a totally different color sense.
Yes. Definately some overlap. Just as you stated, the number 3. It's similar color as letter E. A Purple-maroon shade. Also S and 5 are somewhat similar. Both are blue-ish. No overlap on number 6. Its always light blue. Same for 7, its always green.
Finally 8 and H are both brown and oddly exact same color. Not sure if its because H is also the 8th letter in the alphabet.
Finally 8 and H are both brown and oddly exact same color. Not sure if its because H is also the 8th letter in the alphabet.
Thanks so much for sharing, what a wonderful world :)
I don’t have enough colors in my head to fill a whole alphabet.
Do you have synesthesia? The alphabet color thing is a common marker of it
I think I do. As far back as I can remember - I've always seen numbers & letters in vivid color. As well as things like calendar/datetime, distance and direction in some type of geometric shape. I though that was how everyone perceived the world. It wasn't until much later when I came across an article on synesthesia that learned that it was actually a thing.
Yes. In fact there's almost no "entropy" to remember in 1234 because it perfectly matches a 45 deg slope. I just have to remember it starts at ground and has length 4.
A seq like 1244 has a bit more entropy with the "bump" where the 3 should be, so it's easier to see it as a slope of length 2 starting at 12, or some "busy-beaver" like sequence that starts gradual and curves rapidly up to 44. The bump at 3 seems most natural.
A long sequence of numbers looks like monotonically increasing groups or strings, and the curve is easy to remember. Is it a log-like plot, a hyperbolic curve, parabola, saw tooth, line, etc? I usually end up finding a curve that has fewer deviations and matches the numbers nicely. I just have to remember how long each sequence was.
Like this:
1234567788100
is
1/7, length 7. 77/99, length 3, except +1 where the 99 should be. It's kind of clumsy with text, easier with pictures and dots, like seeing wood grain or stars. All you need is the "origin" coordinate frame. There's still numbers, but the lines help keep the memory of the relationship more natural.
Words are the same. Sounds angle up and down and squiggle back sometimes. It's why my handwriting is so terrible I think. Probably this is how shorthand was developed, so I don't think it's all that unique to me.
From there, numbers->sounds is easy enough but never helped me remember things. What helps is the ridge-lines and parabolas.
A seq like 1244 has a bit more entropy with the "bump" where the 3 should be, so it's easier to see it as a slope of length 2 starting at 12, or some "busy-beaver" like sequence that starts gradual and curves rapidly up to 44. The bump at 3 seems most natural.
A long sequence of numbers looks like monotonically increasing groups or strings, and the curve is easy to remember. Is it a log-like plot, a hyperbolic curve, parabola, saw tooth, line, etc? I usually end up finding a curve that has fewer deviations and matches the numbers nicely. I just have to remember how long each sequence was.
Like this:
1234567788100
is
1/7, length 7. 77/99, length 3, except +1 where the 99 should be. It's kind of clumsy with text, easier with pictures and dots, like seeing wood grain or stars. All you need is the "origin" coordinate frame. There's still numbers, but the lines help keep the memory of the relationship more natural.
Words are the same. Sounds angle up and down and squiggle back sometimes. It's why my handwriting is so terrible I think. Probably this is how shorthand was developed, so I don't think it's all that unique to me.
From there, numbers->sounds is easy enough but never helped me remember things. What helps is the ridge-lines and parabolas.
It sounds like you've got some form of synesthesia!
I can totally understand what you're saying but there's no way I could apply it to a series of numbers, maybe not even if I practiced.
Did you always have this feeling with numbers, or was it practiced at all? It feels like what you're describing is a natural visualization you've developed and it also sounds a lot more powerful than something one might practice.
I can totally understand what you're saying but there's no way I could apply it to a series of numbers, maybe not even if I practiced.
Did you always have this feeling with numbers, or was it practiced at all? It feels like what you're describing is a natural visualization you've developed and it also sounds a lot more powerful than something one might practice.
A Norwegian newspaper did a deep dive a few years ago about how people visualize the year. Crazy how different people are, I ended up in discussions with many people during that week hearing lots of different variations. Your description of waves reminded me about it, since it's almost how I view time. Like a sinus wave where the valley is the summer. But zoomable with smaller waves so the months and weeks also are waves on top of the big wave.
https://nrkbeta.no/2018/01/01/this-is-what-the-year-actually...
https://nrkbeta.no/2018/01/01/this-is-what-the-year-actually...
Apparently this is a well-established memorization technique. Pretty interesting if you figured this out independently!
I have also heard that this same technique might be the basis for at least some myths and other sacred stories, wherein a myth arises as a mnemonic for something important like an agricultural cycle or migration path.
If anyone knows names of researchers in this area or books on the topic I would be very interested to follow up on it.
I have also heard that this same technique might be the basis for at least some myths and other sacred stories, wherein a myth arises as a mnemonic for something important like an agricultural cycle or migration path.
If anyone knows names of researchers in this area or books on the topic I would be very interested to follow up on it.
"If you saw two guys named Hambone and Flippy, which one would you think liked dolphins the most? I'd say Flippy, wouldn't you? You'd be wrong, though. It's Hambone."
-Jack Handy
-Jack Handy
Wow!!! I've thought my whole life about this at random moments....... when I was a very little kid, maybe 5-10 I used to say certain words and I would get a very intense visualization that would go along with it. The visualization was never of the actual object, but some bizarre shape or pattern, and it would always be the same when I would say that word.
For example the world "girl" would visualize a head of hair with these brown slender shapes that would surround the head and move upwards.
It's really crazy it actually has a name. I noticed as I get older it no longer happens, but I remember it used to happen incredibly intensely when I was young.
For example the world "girl" would visualize a head of hair with these brown slender shapes that would surround the head and move upwards.
It's really crazy it actually has a name. I noticed as I get older it no longer happens, but I remember it used to happen incredibly intensely when I was young.
What you experienced might also be more similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia, since the bouba/kiki experiments are mostly about people judging the quality of a match between sounds and pre-prepared images, rather than having them spontaneously visualize images based on the sounds.
Many synesthetes experience a consistent match between words or sounds and visualizations, but not necessarily the same pairing that other people do.
Many synesthetes experience a consistent match between words or sounds and visualizations, but not necessarily the same pairing that other people do.
Makes me wonder if young children generally have some form of Synesthesia, when the brain still develops, that then subsides in most adults.
While I had practically forgotten it until you mentioned it, I had similar experiences, for example the french song "au clair de la lune" always evoked the same, very vivid (but rather abstract) picture in my mind. To my child mind, it was so intense that the song was that picture to me.
Nowadays this doesn't happen...
While I had practically forgotten it until you mentioned it, I had similar experiences, for example the french song "au clair de la lune" always evoked the same, very vivid (but rather abstract) picture in my mind. To my child mind, it was so intense that the song was that picture to me.
Nowadays this doesn't happen...
I have no idea if there's research directly linking the two areas together, but what you're describing sounds more like a form of synesthesia than this more general effect. When I think of "bouba" and "kiki" I don't have any mental visualization...it's just that if I see these shapes and have to name them, one pairing feels a little more "right" than the other. Having mental visualizations associated with particular words, letters, musical notes, etc. is synesthesia. It's also very, very cool. And I guess the article does note near the bottom that there may be some relationship. But the bouba/kiki effect is definitely more widespread than synesthesia.
Simply imagine what sound a 3D-object of the shape as in the WP-article would make.
The star-shaped object would make a "spiky" sound, the bubble-like object more of a bump-like sound. That explains the attribution of the words kiki and bouba to the objects in different cultures. My explanation.
The star-shaped object would make a "spiky" sound, the bubble-like object more of a bump-like sound. That explains the attribution of the words kiki and bouba to the objects in different cultures. My explanation.
The words spike, bubble and bump seem to be examples of this effect, not really explanations of it.
Yeah it seems kind of obvious really. But still interesting.
Many years ago, I wrote a blog -- no longer online, I'm afraid -- about how I associated different programming languages with different shapes. I've never heard of this effect before today, but it visualises almost perfectly what I was trying to express all those years ago. (I originally posited that it was some form of synaesthesia.)
For example, Python has a rounded or smoother shape, whereas C-style languages are more kiki-like (with JavaScript being the spikiest); Haskell, IIRC, had a squarish lump kind of appearance. I originally wrote myself off, thinking that maybe the shapes very loosely correspond to how the code looks in each language "from a distance", but I was never really satisfied with that.
For example, Python has a rounded or smoother shape, whereas C-style languages are more kiki-like (with JavaScript being the spikiest); Haskell, IIRC, had a squarish lump kind of appearance. I originally wrote myself off, thinking that maybe the shapes very loosely correspond to how the code looks in each language "from a distance", but I was never really satisfied with that.
[deleted]
You could check if it made it into archive.org?
I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned already:
http://www.montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Series_4/23.htm
http://www.montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Series_4/23.htm
As someone who has trouble remembering which way round Type 1 and Type 2 decisions are defined, I have started calling them Bouba and Kiki decisions.
It doesn't help whatsoever but it does wind up my cofounder ;)
It doesn't help whatsoever but it does wind up my cofounder ;)
Type X where X is the number of ways through the door.
Type 1 is a one way door, no return!
Type 2 is a 2 way door.
I’d probably label type 1 a kiki (a pointy decision … beware!)
Type 1 is a one way door, no return!
Type 2 is a 2 way door.
I’d probably label type 1 a kiki (a pointy decision … beware!)
QI had a look at this about 12 years ago[0].
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDxajXekbaM
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDxajXekbaM
There's an interesting symmetry between the image and sound frequencies
"kiki" has lots of high frequencies: the i and the click sound of the k. Sharp corners also have lots of high "frequencies", but in the 2d domain.
There's an equivalent symmetry, except with low frequencies, with "bouba" and the rounded shape.
I feel like this can't be a coincidence
"kiki" has lots of high frequencies: the i and the click sound of the k. Sharp corners also have lots of high "frequencies", but in the 2d domain.
There's an equivalent symmetry, except with low frequencies, with "bouba" and the rounded shape.
I feel like this can't be a coincidence
If I think about it I've always instinctively associated unvoiced sounds like /k/ and /t/ to sharper shapes, and sounds like /b/ or /v/ to "rounder", softer shapes. I think that voicing makes everything "smoother", in some way?
Ramachandran and Hubbard suggest that the kiki/bouba effect has implications for the evolution of language, because it suggests that the naming of objects is not completely arbitrary.
Well, no shit - that's why we refer to onomatopoeia, a word which probably has far wider currency than others of similar provenance like poiesis.
I'll add a conjecture that similar disparities exist in vowels, with e and i being considered slender while a, o, and u are considered broad.
Well, no shit - that's why we refer to onomatopoeia, a word which probably has far wider currency than others of similar provenance like poiesis.
I'll add a conjecture that similar disparities exist in vowels, with e and i being considered slender while a, o, and u are considered broad.
> Well, no shit,...
It is fascinating how many science grants we could save on if we just asked HN commenters to describe the world. To think that we might have reached such knowledge about human beings by just asking HN to tell us about the world.
Eat your heart out, Karl Popper. It appears that Keats wins the day.
It is fascinating how many science grants we could save on if we just asked HN commenters to describe the world. To think that we might have reached such knowledge about human beings by just asking HN to tell us about the world.
Eat your heart out, Karl Popper. It appears that Keats wins the day.
You jest, but there’s some sobering truth to the reality that knowledge is not readily distributed amongst humanity.
Some here in the US were searching for organic solutions to eliminating plastic waste, but there was a whole demographic that said, “Well, duh” when it was discovered that a particular worm ate plastic. For them it was just a part of observational life.
Some here in the US were searching for organic solutions to eliminating plastic waste, but there was a whole demographic that said, “Well, duh” when it was discovered that a particular worm ate plastic. For them it was just a part of observational life.
Consulting people who are intuitively skilled in some area can often be a good way to get a head start on understanding a problem. Given the seeming universality of imitation in humans, the assumption of complete arbitrariness actually seems like the bolder claim.
The strange thing is that many of these people seem to be unable to make predictions a priori, choosing to use their knowledge only for confirmation. If only humanity could harness their intellect and knowledge for search rather than confirmation.
It would be great, but I guess many people who have a prodigious ability in some area may not appreciate the dead ends less fortunate people get stuck in. One could also point to innovators whose artistic or scientific insights go unrecognized early in their career or even during their lifetimes.
I came across some valuable advice in a book once, though sadly I forget the author ant title: be ahead of your time, but only by about 20 minutes or so.
I came across some valuable advice in a book once, though sadly I forget the author ant title: be ahead of your time, but only by about 20 minutes or so.
I had a similar discussion about naming evolution and using "Borg" as shorthand for duplicating machine (I think that it is not a great word for this use): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27869571
It is always possible to create completely arbitrary words, but long term the ones that survive are the ones that fit in the language current state and evolution.
It is always possible to create completely arbitrary words, but long term the ones that survive are the ones that fit in the language current state and evolution.
Cool to see this on HN -- I wrote a program for a psych lab in college that was exploring this effect. The idea was to see if homogenous sensory stimuli had a faster reaction time & accuracy compared to disparate ones.
eg. Was the response to [ Bouba-like image + Bouba-like audio ] faster/more accurate than [ Bouba-like image + Kiki-like audio ]
Seemed like it may provide some insight into speech perception and synesthesia.
eg. Was the response to [ Bouba-like image + Bouba-like audio ] faster/more accurate than [ Bouba-like image + Kiki-like audio ]
Seemed like it may provide some insight into speech perception and synesthesia.
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This totally works for other things. "Mamy", "sira", "sakai", are words for various tastes (eg spicy) in Malagasy and I thought that they just sounded 'right' when I first heard them.
(mamy:sweet, sira:salty, sakai:spicy)
(mamy:sweet, sira:salty, sakai:spicy)
I have noticed a similar effect when I encounter the words for 'hot' and 'cold' in an unfamiliar language.
Bouba/Kiki are onomatopoeia for the sounds objects of those shapes are liable to make if you drop them or otherwise physically interact with them. Bouba is probably soft/flexible and Kiki is probably hard/rigid.
There is no inherent association with shape and substance. Leaves/flowers can be pointy like the kiki shape and fall softly and limply, whereas rocks are ubiquitous, round, and solid.
The association is with how the sounds are vocalised and the shapes we make with our mouths.
Leaves and flowers are still mostly curvy. I can't think of anything soft that has straight lines meeting at sharp angles. Rigidity is physically necessary for maintaining that shape long term.
On the other side, you rarely see rocks with extended round parts meeting at sharp, concave angles. A lot if not most things that look like that are soft.
It's not a perfect correlation, but it does seem like a real one to me.
On the other side, you rarely see rocks with extended round parts meeting at sharp, concave angles. A lot if not most things that look like that are soft.
It's not a perfect correlation, but it does seem like a real one to me.
99.9% of concave rocks are pointy, not smooth. Almost no rocks look like bouba.
Very few leaves look like Kiki. Most are rounded. Leaves also aren’t the kind of physical objects you would typically interact with physically as a baby learning about kinematics.
Very few leaves look like Kiki. Most are rounded. Leaves also aren’t the kind of physical objects you would typically interact with physically as a baby learning about kinematics.
That was my initial reaction. "kiki" sounds like hard, sharp things clattering against each other like rocks or broken glass, and "bouba" sounds like something flexible and bouncy.
Bouba... a woody sort of word.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulNWr-yBWP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulNWr-yBWP8
Love discovering random Wikipedia articles! Just this week I started a newsletter about the random articles I come across:
https://randomwalk.substack.com/
Going to use this one in my next email :)
https://randomwalk.substack.com/
Going to use this one in my next email :)
I don't get it? What's the significance of this? I thought the left one is bam/pow and the right one is a blob?
It is a binary choice, either you call the left shape bouba and the right shape kiki, or you call the left shape kiki and the right shape bouba, you can't use any other name.
The interesting part is that everyone gives the same answer, regardless of culture and language.
The interesting part is that everyone gives the same answer, regardless of culture and language.
From the article: Without being told which shape was which,
> 95% to 98% selected the curvy shape as "bouba" and the jagged one as "kiki", suggesting that the human brain somehow attaches abstract meanings to the shapes and sounds in a consistent way
So apart from visually impaired (from birth) people, we may have a pattern in mapping shapes to phonemes.
> 95% to 98% selected the curvy shape as "bouba" and the jagged one as "kiki", suggesting that the human brain somehow attaches abstract meanings to the shapes and sounds in a consistent way
So apart from visually impaired (from birth) people, we may have a pattern in mapping shapes to phonemes.
My guess is that the shape of our mouth/tongue makes us choose "bouba" for the rounded shape.
So either I have autism, or this is complete bogus research
It turns out that "Baba" and "Keke", two named objects that the player can control, were named after this effect! Hempuli talked about this during one of their twitch streams many months back.
(I can't say enough wonderful things about this game)