Flowers Make a Nice Gift(echevarria.io)
echevarria.io
Flowers Make a Nice Gift
https://www.echevarria.io/blog/flowers-make-a-nice-gift/index.html
146 comments
But ... it's crazy that we created giant international supply chains to rush around flowers so they can be gifted with no awareness of season or region. Flowers are flown thousands of miles, and refrigerated in transit.
At some point, flowers were something we appreciated in nature. (It is interesting that we appreciate part of another life form's reproductive cycle in a relatively non-utilitarian way). Then flowers were something you could enjoy seasonally, and with a connection to the land and seasons around you.
But at some point, we decided that it made sense for jets to move flowers sometimes between continents, so you could buy roses any month of the year. And that's a little amazing and a little ridiculous.
Flowers make no demands on the recipient to enjoy other than that perhaps, they shouldn't think too much about where they came from.
At some point, flowers were something we appreciated in nature. (It is interesting that we appreciate part of another life form's reproductive cycle in a relatively non-utilitarian way). Then flowers were something you could enjoy seasonally, and with a connection to the land and seasons around you.
But at some point, we decided that it made sense for jets to move flowers sometimes between continents, so you could buy roses any month of the year. And that's a little amazing and a little ridiculous.
Flowers make no demands on the recipient to enjoy other than that perhaps, they shouldn't think too much about where they came from.
"He digs through his Book of Dougs and notices a discrepancy: One Doug gave his grandmother flowers and earned 145 Good Place points, while another Doug did the same thing and actually lost four points. It’s all about unintended consequences: The second Doug used a smartphone made by a kid in China, bought roses raised with pesticides… Michael realizes that “every day, the world gets a little more complicated, and being a good person gets a little harder.”
- The Good Place Season 3, Episode 11
[1] https://tvline.com/2019/01/10/the-good-place-recap-season-3-...
- The Good Place Season 3, Episode 11
[1] https://tvline.com/2019/01/10/the-good-place-recap-season-3-...
> It is interesting that we appreciate part of another life form's reproductive cycle in a relatively non-utilitarian way
Flowers evolved to attract insects to aid in reproduction. Accidentally it also turned out that humans would also be attracted by them and aid in their reproduction by farming them.
Flowers evolved to attract insects to aid in reproduction. Accidentally it also turned out that humans would also be attracted by them and aid in their reproduction by farming them.
Is it just accidentally?
Yes. There’s no look-ahead in evolution.
Well, I think one could plausibly argue that the early small mammals which liked to be around flowers were more likely to survive because they could eat the abundance of insects attracted to the flowers. That effect compounds, and in general, places with lots of flowers (in the ancestral environment) tend to be pretty busy ecosystems full of things to eat.
Which is not to say that this is in fact how it came about, but it's plausible enough that I wouldn't be comfortable asserting "it's pure coincidence".
(By the way, David Deutsch asserts that flowers are, in some sense, objectively beautiful. I think he's wrong, but The Beginning of Infinity contains quite a bit on this subject.)
Which is not to say that this is in fact how it came about, but it's plausible enough that I wouldn't be comfortable asserting "it's pure coincidence".
(By the way, David Deutsch asserts that flowers are, in some sense, objectively beautiful. I think he's wrong, but The Beginning of Infinity contains quite a bit on this subject.)
In recent centuries, flowers have evolved to be more attractive to humans because we've intentionally manipulated the evolutionary pressure on them. So it's not accidental, but it's our volition driving it, not the flowers'.
Sure, once we were already interested enough in flowers to bother doing that.
Sure, but insects get a pretty direct benefit from their roles in helping flowers reproduce. But when we collect or grow flowers for plants which don't also produce useful fruits (e.g. roses vs orange blossoms), we're enjoying a pretty indirect benefit of aesthetic value. How and why did we become fixated on flowers in the first place? Sure, they're sometimes brightly colored and can have complex forms -- but why do those appeal to us?
>How and why did we become fixated on flowers in the first place?
Is this really a hard thing to think about? Flowers brighten up any room. If they are fragrant, they can even liven up a room with their fragrance. It could have also been some sort of show of wealth. You had to have money to have a nice enough garden to have flowers available to cut. The oils from flowers have been used for perfumes for centuries. To me any room with no plants feels dead. Just something in the corner that is green and leafy makes a huge difference. Flowers also add color to that. There's lots of reasons for people to want flowers.
Unless you are super sensitive with allergies, you kind of have to be a little dead on the inside to not see the appeal.
Is this really a hard thing to think about? Flowers brighten up any room. If they are fragrant, they can even liven up a room with their fragrance. It could have also been some sort of show of wealth. You had to have money to have a nice enough garden to have flowers available to cut. The oils from flowers have been used for perfumes for centuries. To me any room with no plants feels dead. Just something in the corner that is green and leafy makes a huge difference. Flowers also add color to that. There's lots of reasons for people to want flowers.
Unless you are super sensitive with allergies, you kind of have to be a little dead on the inside to not see the appeal.
> Unless you are super sensitive with allergies, you kind of have to be a little dead on the inside to not see the appeal.
I have dahlias and roses growing right now. It's not that I don't experience the appeal ... It's that I'm curious how flowers initially became appealing. I think it's a failure of imagination to just claim that flowers are intrinsically attractive and not ask any further questions.
I think you're begging the question, as someone who enjoys flowers and descends from many many generations who have enjoyed flowers. When do you suppose the earliest ancestor who gathered flowers for aesthetic appreciation was? Chimps don't do it, so far as I know. Other great apes don't. The rest of the animal kingdom doesn't use them as we do. So a whole long chain of ancestors didn't care about flowers from an aesthetic perspective, and then perhaps there was a transitional period, and now modern humans really like them. What happened?
The idea of flowers as a display of wealth or the appeal to cultural use of oils from flowers all seem too late as explanations, in that they presume that flowers in particular were already appealing.
For color and fragrance, why don't we value other natural sources in the same way? Beetle carapaces or bird feathers can be colorful and all sorts of organic matter can be fragrant. But we aren't drawn to use them in the same way, for the most part.
I have dahlias and roses growing right now. It's not that I don't experience the appeal ... It's that I'm curious how flowers initially became appealing. I think it's a failure of imagination to just claim that flowers are intrinsically attractive and not ask any further questions.
I think you're begging the question, as someone who enjoys flowers and descends from many many generations who have enjoyed flowers. When do you suppose the earliest ancestor who gathered flowers for aesthetic appreciation was? Chimps don't do it, so far as I know. Other great apes don't. The rest of the animal kingdom doesn't use them as we do. So a whole long chain of ancestors didn't care about flowers from an aesthetic perspective, and then perhaps there was a transitional period, and now modern humans really like them. What happened?
The idea of flowers as a display of wealth or the appeal to cultural use of oils from flowers all seem too late as explanations, in that they presume that flowers in particular were already appealing.
For color and fragrance, why don't we value other natural sources in the same way? Beetle carapaces or bird feathers can be colorful and all sorts of organic matter can be fragrant. But we aren't drawn to use them in the same way, for the most part.
>For color and fragrance, why don't we value other natural sources in the same way? Beetle carapaces or bird feathers can be colorful and all sorts of organic matter can be fragrant. But we aren't drawn to use them in the same way, for the most part.
Um, people have been using feathers for a long time. The native people of the "New World" used them to the point of it being a stereotype. Also, how much of this other organic matter have you collected because of its fragrance? As far as hard shells go, there are also historical evidence of people using them primarily as protection more than a trinket to display at home.
>When do you suppose the earliest ancestor who gathered flowers for aesthetic appreciation was?
I guess it would be after we figured out how to not live in a cave. After developing ability to communicate. After we weren't the ones being hunted. Then again, how in the world am I to know when/if the first Mr Neanderthal didn't pick a daisy to bring to Miss Neanderthal in an attempt to woo her affection.
>in that they presume that flowers in particular were already appealing.
I'm really shocked that you just cannot fathom or imagine someone looking at a flower and thinking "wow, that looks really nice. i'm going to investigate it." then realizing, "wow, this smells nice too. i'm going to pick it to share with someone". then, they take it home, and they see the response it has. The Mrs says "ooh, that is lovely." Then Mr FlowerPicker says, hey, I should do that again.
>Chimps don't do it, so far as I know. Other great apes don't
The list of things that humans do that chips/apes don't do is long, so I'm curious why this one in particular has peaked to your interest to make this point. Apes don't talk and write. Apes don't drive cars. Apes don't cook food. Apes don't cut down trees and build structures to live in. What's your point?
Um, people have been using feathers for a long time. The native people of the "New World" used them to the point of it being a stereotype. Also, how much of this other organic matter have you collected because of its fragrance? As far as hard shells go, there are also historical evidence of people using them primarily as protection more than a trinket to display at home.
>When do you suppose the earliest ancestor who gathered flowers for aesthetic appreciation was?
I guess it would be after we figured out how to not live in a cave. After developing ability to communicate. After we weren't the ones being hunted. Then again, how in the world am I to know when/if the first Mr Neanderthal didn't pick a daisy to bring to Miss Neanderthal in an attempt to woo her affection.
>in that they presume that flowers in particular were already appealing.
I'm really shocked that you just cannot fathom or imagine someone looking at a flower and thinking "wow, that looks really nice. i'm going to investigate it." then realizing, "wow, this smells nice too. i'm going to pick it to share with someone". then, they take it home, and they see the response it has. The Mrs says "ooh, that is lovely." Then Mr FlowerPicker says, hey, I should do that again.
>Chimps don't do it, so far as I know. Other great apes don't
The list of things that humans do that chips/apes don't do is long, so I'm curious why this one in particular has peaked to your interest to make this point. Apes don't talk and write. Apes don't drive cars. Apes don't cook food. Apes don't cut down trees and build structures to live in. What's your point?
Absolutely the development of language, tool use, cooking are all interesting. But they're all pretty easily tied to fitness in a straight forward way. Aesthetic appreciation isn't. Sure, when I encounter a flower in the wild. I appreciate it. I grow flowers and visit gardens. But those are as much statements about me as they are about flowers. We could have had minds which are drawn to different things. You treat it as obvious and uninteresting that humans became fixated on part of another kingdom of life reproducing. I also asked a question in a public and undirected way. "IDK but it's a boring question IMO" is both not an answer, not constructive, and kinda missing the point.
Flowers are relatively easy to grow in a greenhouse. Is really it economically feasible to fly them from other continent?
Yup - economies of scale + cheap labor.
We ship a lot of animal products (I think medium sized fish and chicken were some of the examples) to entirely different countries to have them processed and then sent back to us.
I've been completely amazed at seeing assembly lines in things as simple as sardine canning factories. Dozens upon dozens of workers literally just shoving sardines in cans, and they aren't sold for much. The tins actually cost more than the sardines going in them. Absolute dirt cheap wages, quite depressing to think about as somebody from the US
That said though, the domestic US flower industry could be potentially ripe for disruption if somebody wanted to front the money to do so.
We ship a lot of animal products (I think medium sized fish and chicken were some of the examples) to entirely different countries to have them processed and then sent back to us.
I've been completely amazed at seeing assembly lines in things as simple as sardine canning factories. Dozens upon dozens of workers literally just shoving sardines in cans, and they aren't sold for much. The tins actually cost more than the sardines going in them. Absolute dirt cheap wages, quite depressing to think about as somebody from the US
That said though, the domestic US flower industry could be potentially ripe for disruption if somebody wanted to front the money to do so.
Chicken is dirt cheap, like $2/kg wholesale. Price of air freight is about the same on large long contracts and twice of that over the counter. Hauling chicken two ways will increase a final product price at least threefold. Sorry, I can't believe it.
BTW, fish are mostly canned right in the sea on board of fishing vessel or on a bigger factory ship nearby.
BTW, fish are mostly canned right in the sea on board of fishing vessel or on a bigger factory ship nearby.
Some articles in no explicit order with some fairly visible biases but:
https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/03/chicken-from-china-yo...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-seafood-industry-vulnerable...
https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2016/12/05/tale-fish-two-cou...
https://boingboing.net/2018/09/14/usda-approves-shipping-sla...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/china-chicken-reshipped/
https://weuseit2.com/blogs/we-use-it-2/shipping-live-hogs-po...
I'm unfortunately still not able to remember for the keywords of the one good reputable article I know of that details most of what is shipped for processing and back to multiple countries and the margins involved, but it's out there if you ever feel the need to dig into it.
I am aware of the fish being canned on board vessels and factory ships. There are still a large amount that aren't.
Here is one video demonstrating a large amount of people being involved in the simple canning of cheap sardines... It's definitely much better and more orderly than another video based out of a somewhat open-air assembly line in Portugal I believe.
https://youtu.be/WPpFjl8qeM4
I could however be completely wrong about all of this. There is some information on the internet that is not amazingly easy to find and verify. When you think about the fact there are many countries with large populaces that are still treated as literal slave labour though and also lesser quality standards involved, so more ability to quite literally cram a shipping container to the brim with whatever they want, margins are incredibly slim, but still money is being made.
https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/03/chicken-from-china-yo...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-seafood-industry-vulnerable...
https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2016/12/05/tale-fish-two-cou...
https://boingboing.net/2018/09/14/usda-approves-shipping-sla...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/china-chicken-reshipped/
https://weuseit2.com/blogs/we-use-it-2/shipping-live-hogs-po...
I'm unfortunately still not able to remember for the keywords of the one good reputable article I know of that details most of what is shipped for processing and back to multiple countries and the margins involved, but it's out there if you ever feel the need to dig into it.
I am aware of the fish being canned on board vessels and factory ships. There are still a large amount that aren't.
Here is one video demonstrating a large amount of people being involved in the simple canning of cheap sardines... It's definitely much better and more orderly than another video based out of a somewhat open-air assembly line in Portugal I believe.
https://youtu.be/WPpFjl8qeM4
I could however be completely wrong about all of this. There is some information on the internet that is not amazingly easy to find and verify. When you think about the fact there are many countries with large populaces that are still treated as literal slave labour though and also lesser quality standards involved, so more ability to quite literally cram a shipping container to the brim with whatever they want, margins are incredibly slim, but still money is being made.
Thanks for the links! As I scanned them briefly, air freight is never mentioned, and sea transportation is explicitly mentioned couple of times. This is still crazy (frozen containers has to be powered 24/7), but not unbelievable crazy.
My memory from the flight hiatus in europe 2010 (The icelandic vocano) was that roses were out of stock - couldn't be flown from east africa due to the situation.
Random link to establish some basis facts for kenyan rose industry: https://aishaflowers.com/blog/30-why-roses-from-kenya-stands...
Random link to establish some basis facts for kenyan rose industry: https://aishaflowers.com/blog/30-why-roses-from-kenya-stands...
The start of the pandemic/lockdowns also highlighted the flower global trade: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-flower-industry-cras... , including the mention of Kenya.
DDGing "Covid flower industry", there also newer articles talking about the state of the it as lockdowns in Europe eased.
DDGing "Covid flower industry", there also newer articles talking about the state of the it as lockdowns in Europe eased.
We ship in lots of perishable agricultural products that in terms of value per weight or value per container are much cheaper than flowers, they are in the same ballpark as fruit and berries.
I recall some UK study claiming that even purely in terms of carbon footprint it's more effective to fly in greens from south rather than heat up greenhouses to grow them locally during winter.
I recall some UK study claiming that even purely in terms of carbon footprint it's more effective to fly in greens from south rather than heat up greenhouses to grow them locally during winter.
Yeah, though with some interesting exceptions like Dutch orchid greenhouses. Foreign countries with cheap labor and suitable climates have a big natural advantage, but intensive scientific agriculture (to make best use of the expensive greenhouse space) and automation can apparently overcome that in some cases.
Those jets were already being used, the flowers are just using what capacity was there. It's not like FedEx/UPS/etc said we need to increase capacity for flowers. Growers took advantage of a service that was there to increase their sales while also making them available to people that would ordinarly not be able to have them.
Do you like fresh fruit in the winter? Do you like bananas? All of these things are not normal for most people in northern latitudes, yet we all now get to enjoy them.
Do you like fresh fruit in the winter? Do you like bananas? All of these things are not normal for most people in northern latitudes, yet we all now get to enjoy them.
It sounds like you are saying that air-shipped flowers ONLY use excess capacity on already scheduled flights. And then it sounds like you are implying the same about fruits, in particular bananas in the winter.
This is probably not what you meant. But, if you did, I would absolutely love to read the data you gathered this from.
This is probably not what you meant. But, if you did, I would absolutely love to read the data you gathered this from.
No, I'm just saying that shipping things globaly became a thing, and people started taking advantage of those abilities.
A service was created, and it got customers. Only they didn't have to pay a bot farm to create fake users to hype up their service, so that may be confusing to this crowd of readers.
A service was created, and it got customers. Only they didn't have to pay a bot farm to create fake users to hype up their service, so that may be confusing to this crowd of readers.
[deleted]
Are you claiming that flowers are shipped entirely (or even mostly) with unused transport capacity that would be otherwise wasted? Because that seems very unlikely.
Where are people reading this from my comment?
>But ... it's crazy that we created giant international supply chains to rush around flowers
The GP's comment made it sound like capacity was made specifically for flowers. I responded that growers were just using existing shipping capacity, and then stated shippers specifically did not increase capacity for flowers.
Where's the disconnect?
>But ... it's crazy that we created giant international supply chains to rush around flowers
The GP's comment made it sound like capacity was made specifically for flowers. I responded that growers were just using existing shipping capacity, and then stated shippers specifically did not increase capacity for flowers.
Where's the disconnect?
Someone sent flowers to a good friend of mine.
Her cat chewed on a few of the flowers, and died of renal failure a few days later.
I also consider it completely unforgivable that florists don't mention this to every customer who is purchasing lilys (often in arrangements where the customer doesn't even know the contents).
Her cat chewed on a few of the flowers, and died of renal failure a few days later.
Don't send flowers that might include lilys
to anyone who might have a cat!
I also consider it completely unforgivable that florists don't mention this to every customer who is purchasing lilys (often in arrangements where the customer doesn't even know the contents).
>I also consider it completely unforgivable that florists
Computers can be used for evil, do computer sales people mention that to any potential customer? Do car sales mention that you can murder people with the item you are purchasing?
One could flip it and say you are a bad pet parent for not knowing things are dangerous to your pet.
Computers can be used for evil, do computer sales people mention that to any potential customer? Do car sales mention that you can murder people with the item you are purchasing?
One could flip it and say you are a bad pet parent for not knowing things are dangerous to your pet.
Every pet owner should read up on what plants, flowers and foods are dangerous to their pets.
I’d like to see research of how many actually do.
>I’d like to see research
I'd recommend a simple search using the engine of your choice. It's not like this is a new topic that nobody has thought about. It is well documented. To the point, Home Depot's website has a search filter for Pet Safe Plants.
I'd recommend a simple search using the engine of your choice. It's not like this is a new topic that nobody has thought about. It is well documented. To the point, Home Depot's website has a search filter for Pet Safe Plants.
You've missed the point.
If you asked 100 people who came through MetroCat in Boston whether they could name a common flower in floral arrangements, which would cause renal failure and death in their pet, how many would answer correctly?
And how many would get the whole list?
And how many could identify those flowers from photographs or samples?
Those are the interesting questions. I'd bet maybe 50% for the first, dropping quickly for the rest. And the cat owners who come to MetroCat specifically are probably among the most aware groups.
This lack of awareness is, of course, the real problem. And that's why I made my initial comment.
Florists have this awareness but not the full context of the environment where their product will be used. Flowers don't come with warning labels, but even if they did I would say that the florist has a responsibility to inquire. For the benefit of the customer, if nothing else (who wants to be partially involved in the death of their friend's cat??).
If you asked 100 people who came through MetroCat in Boston whether they could name a common flower in floral arrangements, which would cause renal failure and death in their pet, how many would answer correctly?
And how many would get the whole list?
And how many could identify those flowers from photographs or samples?
Those are the interesting questions. I'd bet maybe 50% for the first, dropping quickly for the rest. And the cat owners who come to MetroCat specifically are probably among the most aware groups.
This lack of awareness is, of course, the real problem. And that's why I made my initial comment.
Florists have this awareness but not the full context of the environment where their product will be used. Flowers don't come with warning labels, but even if they did I would say that the florist has a responsibility to inquire. For the benefit of the customer, if nothing else (who wants to be partially involved in the death of their friend's cat??).
I meant that I’m wondering how many pet owners do their due diligence.
You could say that, yes.
But people categorize information that is/is not relevant to their lives. Friend in question was a long-time cat owner, but not a flowers person, so it wouldn't be unusual for the vague knowledge to have faded.
The florist was the only one that knew 100% for sure that lilys would be included in the gift, and should have known that they were highly toxic to cats. A simple "does the recipient have a cat?" question would have gone a long way to preventing a lot of pain and anguish.
I do consider it unforgiveable that the question is not asked as a matter of course.
But yes, there were a few people who could have prevented this problem, and only one who was ultimately responsible.
But people categorize information that is/is not relevant to their lives. Friend in question was a long-time cat owner, but not a flowers person, so it wouldn't be unusual for the vague knowledge to have faded.
The florist was the only one that knew 100% for sure that lilys would be included in the gift, and should have known that they were highly toxic to cats. A simple "does the recipient have a cat?" question would have gone a long way to preventing a lot of pain and anguish.
I do consider it unforgiveable that the question is not asked as a matter of course.
But yes, there were a few people who could have prevented this problem, and only one who was ultimately responsible.
> do consider it unforgiveable that the question is not asked as a matter of course.
This is just ridiculous. Should the florist ask if the recipient has allergies? Why not ask if there are other pets, why are you calling out cats only? Flowers can also be toxic to dogs as well.
I think you are looking to blame someone for something that happened, and assing the blame to the wrong person. My thoughts are no less valid than yours wanting to blame a florist.
This is just ridiculous. Should the florist ask if the recipient has allergies? Why not ask if there are other pets, why are you calling out cats only? Flowers can also be toxic to dogs as well.
I think you are looking to blame someone for something that happened, and assing the blame to the wrong person. My thoughts are no less valid than yours wanting to blame a florist.
You're being needlessly argumentative in this thread. I said that there's only one person ultimately responsible.
However, it's 100% reasonable for the florist to offer a warning. We give warnings in all sorts of situations, all the time. A warning to prevent the death of a pet, due to a very common oversight, is completely appropriate.
I would consider it my moral responsibility to give a warning, if I were a florist. Any florist who does not consider it a moral responsibility of theirs, I consider immoral.
You don't like that, but that's fine. I hope you never become a florist, or another person who can influence fallible humans' lives.
My whole point here is that specific flower toxicity to cats is a very common oversight. Maybe you were born knowing, maybe you're better at reading the posters which (now) are common at vetrinarians' offices. Maybe you bought "Cats for Dummies" when you turned 18. Maybe you're just awesome.
But lots of people who own cats do not know, and I would prefer those people to not have dead cats, more than I'd prefer to pronounce responsibilities from some perch of ridiculous absolutism.
However, it's 100% reasonable for the florist to offer a warning. We give warnings in all sorts of situations, all the time. A warning to prevent the death of a pet, due to a very common oversight, is completely appropriate.
I would consider it my moral responsibility to give a warning, if I were a florist. Any florist who does not consider it a moral responsibility of theirs, I consider immoral.
You don't like that, but that's fine. I hope you never become a florist, or another person who can influence fallible humans' lives.
My whole point here is that specific flower toxicity to cats is a very common oversight. Maybe you were born knowing, maybe you're better at reading the posters which (now) are common at vetrinarians' offices. Maybe you bought "Cats for Dummies" when you turned 18. Maybe you're just awesome.
But lots of people who own cats do not know, and I would prefer those people to not have dead cats, more than I'd prefer to pronounce responsibilities from some perch of ridiculous absolutism.
Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for the heads up.
I think the best gifts overall are edible: wine, chocolate, a nice mustard, etc.
You eat it, enjoy it, and it's over. There's nothing to occupy space in your house.
If you don't like it, just pass it on.
You eat it, enjoy it, and it's over. There's nothing to occupy space in your house.
If you don't like it, just pass it on.
Smokable flowers make a great gift for people who like them.
And as you say, if you don't like them, then pass them on!
And as you say, if you don't like them, then pass them on!
Vaporizable! (Not "vape"able)
Once, a friend of mine (who I hadn't known for very long) asked me what to bring to a party.
I said "oh I really don't mind. Something practical probably, like a potato."
He brought a sweet potato. It was great!
We get along very well.
I said "oh I really don't mind. Something practical probably, like a potato."
He brought a sweet potato. It was great!
We get along very well.
Spoken as someone that doesn't have a ton on extra space in their house, and maybe moves around semi-frequently? nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend that either extremes are universal.
OP did say "I think". When it comes to liking chocolate or flowers, let's assume it's just an opinion.
Id even go as far to say that you can add that to everything you read and it enables you to be more relaxed.
I didn't like getting cut flowers because they always died after just 3-4 days and it seemed like a waste. So I bought a big pack of 'cut flower food' packets, and now after changing out the water and adding a 9¢ packet every 5 days I can get a $6 bunch of flowers to last 2-3 weeks!
Crystal is a common brand; I doubt the brand matters. My pack was so big I wouldn't use it up for years so I split it up and gave most of it away. I haven't tried but presumably you can mix up a batch of sugar and bleach powder yourself, be careful handling chemicals etc.
Crystal is a common brand; I doubt the brand matters. My pack was so big I wouldn't use it up for years so I split it up and gave most of it away. I haven't tried but presumably you can mix up a batch of sugar and bleach powder yourself, be careful handling chemicals etc.
A simple aspirin will work as well.
Note that there are also "flower languages" which are really interesting, and I would strongly recommend paying attention to when sending flowers.
See for example Victorian flower language, etc.
See for example Victorian flower language, etc.
From what I understand, "flower language" is pretty old-fashioned, almost ancient, harking back to the days that one could not say some things out loud. In modern times, as I understand it, it's "anything goes". Even if you research the intricate, nuanced meanings of Victorian-era flower language, your recipient likely won't get the meaning.
Although, personally speaking, I associate red roses with romance and passion, but even this is tenuous nowadays. You can give red roses to anyone.
But I dunno. I still wouldn't give a single red rose to anyone I wasn't interested in romantically.
Although, personally speaking, I associate red roses with romance and passion, but even this is tenuous nowadays. You can give red roses to anyone.
But I dunno. I still wouldn't give a single red rose to anyone I wasn't interested in romantically.
It's fun to learn about the different origins of flower meanings, and how they differ from culture to culture. Ikebana, Japanese flower arrangement, also has an interesting history for those who enjoy learning about the different aesthetic sensibilities, and maybe even try for themselves.
farmgirlflowers.com does very pretty arrangements. I've bought flowers from them for my partner and my mom on a few occasions. Anybody else got leads on good shops?
Re: the article I too have learned to appreciate flowers. They bring beauty. Not everything has to be useful. After spending years walking through smelly cities it really is a blessing to stop and smell a rose or jasmine or, my personal favorite, lavender.
Re: the article I too have learned to appreciate flowers. They bring beauty. Not everything has to be useful. After spending years walking through smelly cities it really is a blessing to stop and smell a rose or jasmine or, my personal favorite, lavender.
Some Chinese associate flowers with death (funeral, etc.). So maybe be careful with a new Chinese girlfriend.
Also, in some cultures (Eastern Europe, I assume; Romania for sure) it's considered appropriate to gift an odd number of flowers (I never knew if it was about the actual flowers or how many stems?), as even numbers are associated with death and funerals, as you've mentioned.
Also avoid gifting someone white slippers, for the same reason.
Sounds more like obsessive compulsive behavior to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmomania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmomania
One flourist (russian one) told me that even number of flowers are for funerals, because the word "чётный" - even number - has the same root as "сочтены" (дни) - days are counted.
Probably it's similar in other Slavic languages.
Probably it's similar in other Slavic languages.
Specifically chrysanthemum. Other flowers are OK.
The chrysanthemum is also a symbol of anal sex; not recommended as a gift.
what
Looks to be true, just searched it up: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chrysanthemu...
> So maybe be careful with a new Chinese girlfriend.
It's worth noting that on 七夕 popup flower stalls appear everywhere. Flowers are an expected gift to your Chinese girlfriend. You should give her 11 of them.
It's worth noting that on 七夕 popup flower stalls appear everywhere. Flowers are an expected gift to your Chinese girlfriend. You should give her 11 of them.
It applies to Chinese, Korean, and Japanese.
Avoid Chrysanthemums, white lilies, and white flowers in general.
Avoid Chrysanthemums, white lilies, and white flowers in general.
>a new Chinese girlfriend
why does this sound, off... maybe it's just me
why does this sound, off... maybe it's just me
Not the GP, but once I gave flowers to a new Chinese girlfriend in college. She kindly explained how the meaning differed between cultures.
Mentioning races is not racism.
Mentioning races is not racism.
I think the original post had no malintent, and you just might be trying too hard.
relatable descriptions of people and things are now problematic
He meant "a girlfriend you only recently got together with". You read it as "replacing your girlfriend with another".
...for people without allergies or sensory processing issues related to powerful scents.
I personally can't think of something OTOH I'd less want in my home. (I am a notorious weirdo, however.)
I personally can't think of something OTOH I'd less want in my home. (I am a notorious weirdo, however.)
Do you tell people when they give you well-intended flowers? I can imagine that's awkward so I wonder if I might inadvertently be giving people products they don't at all want. Maybe I should be asking them because it's awkward to bring it up from the recipient's side, hence my question.
It depends on the person's personality. Some will tell you, and then you know, some will just say thank you and throw it out when you leave or put it outside, which I think is an OK compromise. Other's love flowers too. Usually the best way to find out is to ask them their opinion of them.
Well said.
I was 24 and working at Tandem Computers in Cupertino. I would describe myself as someone who didn’t understand the giving of flowers.
I had finished a big corporate marketing project (Tandem Channel Development Kit—-da-dum). The ‘client’ lead surprised my manager and myself with flowers in our cubicles. So imagine walking through the sterile office, with Holiday Inn meets xerox machine decor, to find a lovely natural bouquet. From there evermore I understood giving flowers as a gift.
I was 24 and working at Tandem Computers in Cupertino. I would describe myself as someone who didn’t understand the giving of flowers.
I had finished a big corporate marketing project (Tandem Channel Development Kit—-da-dum). The ‘client’ lead surprised my manager and myself with flowers in our cubicles. So imagine walking through the sterile office, with Holiday Inn meets xerox machine decor, to find a lovely natural bouquet. From there evermore I understood giving flowers as a gift.
Flowers are a strategic gift. They cost something so they communicate that a person is willing to spend money (and/or effort) on the good will of someone else. But once given, they are worthless, so there's no incentive for the recipient to fake good will in order to recive more of them just for material gain.
That's a very dry way to live.
Once can instead see the beauty in both the act of giving a gift as well as in the flowers themselves.
Beauty is a mark of the highest worth, definitely not worthless.
Once can instead see the beauty in both the act of giving a gift as well as in the flowers themselves.
Beauty is a mark of the highest worth, definitely not worthless.
You may enjoy looking at peacock and understand why he looks the way he looks at the same time.
Who is peacock?
Peacock is a beautiful bird with huge tail that is very costly to grow and the only purpose it serves is attracting a mate.
You can appreciate beauty of the tail while knowing why the bird has it.
Same way you can appreciate beauty of gifted flowers while knowing what purpose gifting them serves.
You can appreciate beauty of the tail while knowing why the bird has it.
Same way you can appreciate beauty of gifted flowers while knowing what purpose gifting them serves.
[deleted]
Plus, flowers make really great RMS repellent!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26541280
>compiler-guy 5 months ago | on: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of th...
>His inappropriate behavior toward women is well documented. One example where women traded advice on how to keep him away.
https://mobile.twitter.com/starsandrobots/status/99426727746...
>DonHopkins 5 months ago [–]
>>Star Simpson @starsandrobots Replying to @corbett
>>I remember being walked around campus by an upperclassman getting advice during my freshman year at MIT. "Look at all the plants in her office," referring to a professor. "All the women CSAIL professors keep massive amounts of foliage" s/he said. "Stallman really hates plants."
>Star is correct: RMS really hates plants, and is afraid of trees.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26541280
>compiler-guy 5 months ago | on: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of th...
>His inappropriate behavior toward women is well documented. One example where women traded advice on how to keep him away.
https://mobile.twitter.com/starsandrobots/status/99426727746...
>DonHopkins 5 months ago [–]
>>Star Simpson @starsandrobots Replying to @corbett
>>I remember being walked around campus by an upperclassman getting advice during my freshman year at MIT. "Look at all the plants in her office," referring to a professor. "All the women CSAIL professors keep massive amounts of foliage" s/he said. "Stallman really hates plants."
>Star is correct: RMS really hates plants, and is afraid of trees.
Do you have a source for this other than a freshman on a tour with an upperclassman observing a professor's office? Wouldn't the professors with the plants have mentioned the reason for their plant keeping once RMS was already canceled, fired, and resigned?
This sounds like an instantiated rumor. In fact it appears to have been added and then deleted to Stallman's Wikipedia page, specifically being removed due to lack of a source.
This sounds like an instantiated rumor. In fact it appears to have been added and then deleted to Stallman's Wikipedia page, specifically being removed due to lack of a source.
Sure, since you asked, I kept the receipts:
I've known RMS since the early 80's, crashed in his house when visiting the MIT AI Lab, had him crash in my hotel room at science fiction conventions, and I'm friends with numerous people who have worked and lived with him, one of whom he let stay in the largest bedroom of his house because it had a menacing tree outside the window that he was afraid of.
And I know Star Simpson personally (the freshman who quoted the MIT upperclassman who said female CSAIL professors kept plants in their offices to repel RMS), and we have discussed RMS's antics.
And RMS has personally asked me to hold the branches of bushes that were leaning into a sidewalk out of the way so that he could pass by.
So yes, I'm pretty sure first hand that RMS is afraid of trees and bushes and foliage, among other quirks, and it's pretty widely knows around the people who have lived and worked and hung out with him.
Here's a photo I took of RMS holding a gerbil wrapped in duct tape, just before he asked, "I don't know, why do you wrap a gerbil in duct tape?" (Google it!)
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/jsol-rms-gerb...
And here are a couple photo of my brave friend Devon, who was his housemate for many years, fearlessly climbing up to the roof of his house on the evil tree that RMS was afraid of, so you can judge for yourself how menacing it was:
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/devon-climbin...
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/devon-landing...
And here's a true story about a funny joke that RMS made about my other friend Mike and I burning down his house, the one in that photo:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26113192
>I worked at UniPress on the Emacs display driver for the NeWS window system (the PostScript based window system that James Gosling also wrote), with Mike "Emacs Hacker Boss" Gallaher, who was charge of Emacs development at UniPress. One day during the 80's Mike and I were wandering around an East coast science fiction convention, and ran into RMS, who's a regular fixture at such events.
>Mike said: "Hello, Richard. I heard a rumor that your house burned down. That's terrible! Is it true?"
>RMS replied right back: "Yes, it did. But where you work, you probably heard about it in advance."
>Everybody laughed. It was a joke! Nobody's feelings were hurt. He's a funny guy, quick on his feet!
Yes, his house actually did burn down, but we didn't set it on fire, hire someone else to do it, or even know about it in advance.
And here's an excerpt from a September 1986 email from my eloquent friend who he let stay in the biggest room of the house with a menacing tree outside the window:
>RMS as God (or, why isn't the world made out of decayed slugs?)
>What can I say? All three of us moved out of [address redacted] because there was no way in hell to get him to move. This is a man who has created an operating system people worship slavishly as a "perfect environment", but who claims he must continue to use everyone else's towel because he doesn't know where to buy one himself. This is a man who talks about immorality and considerate-ness, and claimed it was a "special favor" to take his boots off at the top of the stairs like the rest of us and not track mud through the living room where we all roamed barefoot. This is a man who let me have the best bedroom in the house because there were trees outside the window and he was afraid of them. He has mentioned to a few people that he thinks it would be neat to have a daughter by some willing female and raise her up so that he could have sex with her when she was old enough. This man says he will never be happy until there is no more purchased software, until copyright laws are totally trashed. He will accept no lesser events as conditionals, and disqualifies any other good things/feelings that happen to him as "false happiness" or simply things that don't count.
>Yet I still hear people I love and respect talk about him as if he were some kind of deity, as if his Free Software Foundation were the noblest effort in the world. It is admirable, yes. But to glorify the thoroughly sick human being behind it into some sort of whole-life messianic figure is unconscionable. Meeting RMS groupies was yet another contributing factor to my punting of the computer world for the time being. So many of the "hackers" out there (hackers, not crackers/urchins/destructoids) seem to have their external values totally fukt. Sure, we're all entitled to different values. Fine. But it grieves me to see good people withering away behind a self-imposed wall of lonely techno-perfection, their frantic efforts to acquire friends and lovers made all the more poignant by the desperation in their eyes, voice, manner. Most of them know that they are lacking something important, but don't know what it is, or how to get it, or who to ask for it. Many can see themselves alienating people or spurning offers of friendship and affection, but don't know how or why they're doing so. They just look impassive and bored and in control, and damn themselves silently in their minds, self-inflicting the rejection and pain that they feared from the outside.
[She goes on, but I'll stop quoting here... And you can decide for yourself if what she wrote about RMS in September 1986 is accurate and authentic, and aligns with other stories you've heard about him in the intervening 35 years.]
And here's a transcript of a bunch of people telling RMS to fuck off because they didn't appreciate his pointed joke about the Evils Natalism, which I then fed to Doctor in Emacs to psychoanalyze him:
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/text/rms-vs-doctor.h...
I've known RMS since the early 80's, crashed in his house when visiting the MIT AI Lab, had him crash in my hotel room at science fiction conventions, and I'm friends with numerous people who have worked and lived with him, one of whom he let stay in the largest bedroom of his house because it had a menacing tree outside the window that he was afraid of.
And I know Star Simpson personally (the freshman who quoted the MIT upperclassman who said female CSAIL professors kept plants in their offices to repel RMS), and we have discussed RMS's antics.
And RMS has personally asked me to hold the branches of bushes that were leaning into a sidewalk out of the way so that he could pass by.
So yes, I'm pretty sure first hand that RMS is afraid of trees and bushes and foliage, among other quirks, and it's pretty widely knows around the people who have lived and worked and hung out with him.
Here's a photo I took of RMS holding a gerbil wrapped in duct tape, just before he asked, "I don't know, why do you wrap a gerbil in duct tape?" (Google it!)
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/jsol-rms-gerb...
And here are a couple photo of my brave friend Devon, who was his housemate for many years, fearlessly climbing up to the roof of his house on the evil tree that RMS was afraid of, so you can judge for yourself how menacing it was:
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/devon-climbin...
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/devon-landing...
And here's a true story about a funny joke that RMS made about my other friend Mike and I burning down his house, the one in that photo:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26113192
>I worked at UniPress on the Emacs display driver for the NeWS window system (the PostScript based window system that James Gosling also wrote), with Mike "Emacs Hacker Boss" Gallaher, who was charge of Emacs development at UniPress. One day during the 80's Mike and I were wandering around an East coast science fiction convention, and ran into RMS, who's a regular fixture at such events.
>Mike said: "Hello, Richard. I heard a rumor that your house burned down. That's terrible! Is it true?"
>RMS replied right back: "Yes, it did. But where you work, you probably heard about it in advance."
>Everybody laughed. It was a joke! Nobody's feelings were hurt. He's a funny guy, quick on his feet!
Yes, his house actually did burn down, but we didn't set it on fire, hire someone else to do it, or even know about it in advance.
And here's an excerpt from a September 1986 email from my eloquent friend who he let stay in the biggest room of the house with a menacing tree outside the window:
>RMS as God (or, why isn't the world made out of decayed slugs?)
>What can I say? All three of us moved out of [address redacted] because there was no way in hell to get him to move. This is a man who has created an operating system people worship slavishly as a "perfect environment", but who claims he must continue to use everyone else's towel because he doesn't know where to buy one himself. This is a man who talks about immorality and considerate-ness, and claimed it was a "special favor" to take his boots off at the top of the stairs like the rest of us and not track mud through the living room where we all roamed barefoot. This is a man who let me have the best bedroom in the house because there were trees outside the window and he was afraid of them. He has mentioned to a few people that he thinks it would be neat to have a daughter by some willing female and raise her up so that he could have sex with her when she was old enough. This man says he will never be happy until there is no more purchased software, until copyright laws are totally trashed. He will accept no lesser events as conditionals, and disqualifies any other good things/feelings that happen to him as "false happiness" or simply things that don't count.
>Yet I still hear people I love and respect talk about him as if he were some kind of deity, as if his Free Software Foundation were the noblest effort in the world. It is admirable, yes. But to glorify the thoroughly sick human being behind it into some sort of whole-life messianic figure is unconscionable. Meeting RMS groupies was yet another contributing factor to my punting of the computer world for the time being. So many of the "hackers" out there (hackers, not crackers/urchins/destructoids) seem to have their external values totally fukt. Sure, we're all entitled to different values. Fine. But it grieves me to see good people withering away behind a self-imposed wall of lonely techno-perfection, their frantic efforts to acquire friends and lovers made all the more poignant by the desperation in their eyes, voice, manner. Most of them know that they are lacking something important, but don't know what it is, or how to get it, or who to ask for it. Many can see themselves alienating people or spurning offers of friendship and affection, but don't know how or why they're doing so. They just look impassive and bored and in control, and damn themselves silently in their minds, self-inflicting the rejection and pain that they feared from the outside.
[She goes on, but I'll stop quoting here... And you can decide for yourself if what she wrote about RMS in September 1986 is accurate and authentic, and aligns with other stories you've heard about him in the intervening 35 years.]
And here's a transcript of a bunch of people telling RMS to fuck off because they didn't appreciate his pointed joke about the Evils Natalism, which I then fed to Doctor in Emacs to psychoanalyze him:
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/text/rms-vs-doctor.h...
Thanks for the details. Peculiar (as usual with RMS).
> I'm pretty sure first hand that RMS is afraid of trees and bushes and foliage
Have you seriously consider that he could be worried by something that could be in that foliage, like ticks for example?
> fearlessly climbing up to the roof of his house on the evil tree that RMS was afraid of
again, have you consider that he could be worried by how easy would be for a stranger to break into the room climbing the tree and maybe steal his computer? Most people like to have a sense of security and private space when sleeping.
Have you seriously consider that he could be worried by something that could be in that foliage, like ticks for example?
> fearlessly climbing up to the roof of his house on the evil tree that RMS was afraid of
again, have you consider that he could be worried by how easy would be for a stranger to break into the room climbing the tree and maybe steal his computer? Most people like to have a sense of security and private space when sleeping.
I believe the women, and my own eyes and ears.
Edit: A science fiction convention is not a workplace, and as the butts of his joke about burning down his house, Mike and I (who he also calls "Evil Software Hoarders" because we worked for UniPress on his enemy Gosling Emacs) are in the unique position of deciding whether it's offensive to us or not, not you. And we both thought it was hilarious, as he meant us to take it, especially his without-missing-a-beat dead-pan delivery.
Also we weren't co-workers, we fought on opposite sides of the Emacs Wars, but we hung out at science fiction conventions and at each other's homes, and were friendly and civil in person (at least enough to know if he accused us of burning down his house, he was only joking, and that if he asked me to hold a bush out of his way, he really meant it).
And I was taking photos of the guy you rudely accuse of being a creepy spoiled brat while you lectured me about making fun of people, because he is my friend, and we were having a fun time climbing the trees at his house, not mocking RMS or even thinking about him at the time. It just so happens that was the roof of the same house that burnt down later, and the same tree that RMS was afraid of, and somebody asked for proof, so I gave what I had. Do you need more proof? (Gumby: I'm sure you have some stories! ;) )
Just come out and say you don't believe the women, and stop lecturing me on civility while baselessly calling my friend a creepy spoiled brat, m'kay? ;)
Edit: A science fiction convention is not a workplace, and as the butts of his joke about burning down his house, Mike and I (who he also calls "Evil Software Hoarders" because we worked for UniPress on his enemy Gosling Emacs) are in the unique position of deciding whether it's offensive to us or not, not you. And we both thought it was hilarious, as he meant us to take it, especially his without-missing-a-beat dead-pan delivery.
Also we weren't co-workers, we fought on opposite sides of the Emacs Wars, but we hung out at science fiction conventions and at each other's homes, and were friendly and civil in person (at least enough to know if he accused us of burning down his house, he was only joking, and that if he asked me to hold a bush out of his way, he really meant it).
And I was taking photos of the guy you rudely accuse of being a creepy spoiled brat while you lectured me about making fun of people, because he is my friend, and we were having a fun time climbing the trees at his house, not mocking RMS or even thinking about him at the time. It just so happens that was the roof of the same house that burnt down later, and the same tree that RMS was afraid of, and somebody asked for proof, so I gave what I had. Do you need more proof? (Gumby: I'm sure you have some stories! ;) )
Just come out and say you don't believe the women, and stop lecturing me on civility while baselessly calling my friend a creepy spoiled brat, m'kay? ;)
What I see in your previous posts is somebody taking a lot of effort and time to made fun of the "weirdo" in the room.
Making jokes in the workplace about burning the home of somebody is funny and acceptable activity to you? Seriously?
And what was the purpose of taking the photo of the creepy guy climbing the tree, except to mock RMS? Your friend looks like a spoiled brat in that photos.
I had seen before this pattern of coworkers teaming against the smart, different guy in the room, releasing rumors about people, and all the stuff that I see in your post... all while pretending to be friendly. And I think that they are really disgusting people, to be honest.
Making jokes in the workplace about burning the home of somebody is funny and acceptable activity to you? Seriously?
And what was the purpose of taking the photo of the creepy guy climbing the tree, except to mock RMS? Your friend looks like a spoiled brat in that photos.
I had seen before this pattern of coworkers teaming against the smart, different guy in the room, releasing rumors about people, and all the stuff that I see in your post... all while pretending to be friendly. And I think that they are really disgusting people, to be honest.
Please be aware that you are going out of your way to construct a scenario where Don is being insincere and even malicious; there is hipocrisy in your demands for specific evidence in your first comment and your assumptions in this one. There are other ways to bring your interpretations to the table, ways that allow thoughtful discussion and so won't see your comments categorically rejected.
> there is hipocrisy in your demands for specific evidence in your first comment
You must refer to the post written by CameronNemo. Those aren't neither "my demands" nor my comment.
Yep, I believe totally in those hypothetical women putting plants in their room because "Stallman can't stand being in the same room as plants". The trick is working great it seems.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Eg...
http://blogs.laprensagrafica.com/litoibarra/wp-content/uploa...
Is also obvious that the man is afraid of trees and nature in general
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stallman_Jadwisin_9....
Real phobias are serious medical problems causing a lot of anxiety and pain in people that just can't avoid being afraid. Is not funny stuff to gossip about it. I think that spread the rumor of somebody having a phobia is, if not malicious, at least of very bad taste. Specially when several documents show the opposite behavior.
And if you say that this wrapped thing is a gerbil, well... Solid evidence. All packages with that shape contain a live gerbil inside. The more expensive Tesla cars even have four squirrel units inside for feeding the battery.
You must refer to the post written by CameronNemo. Those aren't neither "my demands" nor my comment.
Yep, I believe totally in those hypothetical women putting plants in their room because "Stallman can't stand being in the same room as plants". The trick is working great it seems.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Eg...
http://blogs.laprensagrafica.com/litoibarra/wp-content/uploa...
Is also obvious that the man is afraid of trees and nature in general
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stallman_Jadwisin_9....
Real phobias are serious medical problems causing a lot of anxiety and pain in people that just can't avoid being afraid. Is not funny stuff to gossip about it. I think that spread the rumor of somebody having a phobia is, if not malicious, at least of very bad taste. Specially when several documents show the opposite behavior.
And if you say that this wrapped thing is a gerbil, well... Solid evidence. All packages with that shape contain a live gerbil inside. The more expensive Tesla cars even have four squirrel units inside for feeding the battery.
For completeness sake: I was referring to your first comment where you demand proof for all possible interpretations.
That said, it now seems both of you have gone massively off the deep end becoming very involved and abusing the edit function to further arguments where you talk past each other, so I both regret saying and reading anything.
That said, it now seems both of you have gone massively off the deep end becoming very involved and abusing the edit function to further arguments where you talk past each other, so I both regret saying and reading anything.
That's true, those weren't your demands, but you're the guy who doesn't believe the women, and called my friend a creepy spoiled brat while lecturing me about civility.
Defending RMS's love of trees isn't the hill I'd choose to die on. If you really don't believe her, re-read what that wise woman wrote 35 years ago about RMS groupies, and tell me that it doesn't apply to you today:
>Yet I still hear people I love and respect talk about him as if he were some kind of deity, as if his Free Software Foundation were the noblest effort in the world. It is admirable, yes. But to glorify the thoroughly sick human being behind it into some sort of whole-life messianic figure is unconscionable. Meeting RMS groupies was yet another contributing factor to my punting of the computer world for the time being. So many of the "hackers" out there (hackers, not crackers/urchins/destructoids) seem to have their external values totally fukt. Sure, we're all entitled to different values. Fine. But it grieves me to see good people withering away behind a self-imposed wall of lonely techno-perfection, their frantic efforts to acquire friends and lovers made all the more poignant by the desperation in their eyes, voice, manner. Most of them know that they are lacking something important, but don't know what it is, or how to get it, or who to ask for it. Many can see themselves alienating people or spurning offers of friendship and affection, but don't know how or why they're doing so. They just look impassive and bored and in control, and damn themselves silently in their minds, self-inflicting the rejection and pain that they feared from the outside.
Defending RMS's love of trees isn't the hill I'd choose to die on. If you really don't believe her, re-read what that wise woman wrote 35 years ago about RMS groupies, and tell me that it doesn't apply to you today:
>Yet I still hear people I love and respect talk about him as if he were some kind of deity, as if his Free Software Foundation were the noblest effort in the world. It is admirable, yes. But to glorify the thoroughly sick human being behind it into some sort of whole-life messianic figure is unconscionable. Meeting RMS groupies was yet another contributing factor to my punting of the computer world for the time being. So many of the "hackers" out there (hackers, not crackers/urchins/destructoids) seem to have their external values totally fukt. Sure, we're all entitled to different values. Fine. But it grieves me to see good people withering away behind a self-imposed wall of lonely techno-perfection, their frantic efforts to acquire friends and lovers made all the more poignant by the desperation in their eyes, voice, manner. Most of them know that they are lacking something important, but don't know what it is, or how to get it, or who to ask for it. Many can see themselves alienating people or spurning offers of friendship and affection, but don't know how or why they're doing so. They just look impassive and bored and in control, and damn themselves silently in their minds, self-inflicting the rejection and pain that they feared from the outside.
> you're the guy who doesn't believe the women
Nobody should believe "the" women. Not more that we should believe "the" men. Everybody can have hidden agendas. Being a woman is not a proof that somebody is not lying. Moreover. In fact, nobody should believe "me", or "you". Specially when there are a pattern of dissonances between what somebody claims, the quality of the proofs shown and the easy to find facts that don't match what is claimed.
> re-read what that wise woman wrote 35 years ago about RMS groupies
To start, she seems to have a poor and 'holier-than-thou' opinion about all [male] hackers that describes as "fu*d people", and this is not a good sign in my book.
I doubt also that RMS would have a lot of "groupies" or fame in 1986, five years before the first Linux. If something was proven with time is that he was right, and that the "such smart woman" was clueless as a blind chicken about the future impact of the FSF. Your example would be like talking about how disappointing was the impact to Bill Gates to our society at 8 years old.
> called my friend a creepy spoiled brat
Maybe is a great guy, but in this two photos it surely looks like one. You are not doing him any favor showing them here.
Nobody should believe "the" women. Not more that we should believe "the" men. Everybody can have hidden agendas. Being a woman is not a proof that somebody is not lying. Moreover. In fact, nobody should believe "me", or "you". Specially when there are a pattern of dissonances between what somebody claims, the quality of the proofs shown and the easy to find facts that don't match what is claimed.
> re-read what that wise woman wrote 35 years ago about RMS groupies
To start, she seems to have a poor and 'holier-than-thou' opinion about all [male] hackers that describes as "fu*d people", and this is not a good sign in my book.
I doubt also that RMS would have a lot of "groupies" or fame in 1986, five years before the first Linux. If something was proven with time is that he was right, and that the "such smart woman" was clueless as a blind chicken about the future impact of the FSF. Your example would be like talking about how disappointing was the impact to Bill Gates to our society at 8 years old.
> called my friend a creepy spoiled brat
Maybe is a great guy, but in this two photos it surely looks like one. You are not doing him any favor showing them here.
You're strangely obsessed with your mistaken belief that RMS loves trees, based on never having met him, and your Dendrophobia Deniel conspiracy theory that I and all the women I've quoted and my friend Devon are liars, based on never having met any of us or even RMS himself.
Devon just created an account and replied above. It turns out I was mistaken about the particular tree: it was actually the tree around the corner of the house that was outside the bedroom window. But Devon confirms that people of all genders at the AI/LCS lab hung ferns in their offices to keep RMS away.
You probably want to interrogate and insult him directly if you still believe he's a "lying" "creepy" "spoiled brat" (although I have no idea how you so "surely" inferred those specific labels from the photographs -- did you use Facebook's computer vision AI?), at the risk of being banned from HN for antisocial behavior, but I suggest you remain civil, since you're the one who's hypocritically defending RMS's behavior while lecturing other people about civility while incorrectly labeling and insulting them and their friends, based on your imagination and no evidence or first hand experience whatsoever.
https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-apologizes-artifici...
And yes, RMS did have many groupies in 1986 and long before, and he was quite well known even in the 70's, in certain circles. He started working at the MIT AI Lab in 1971, with Gerald Sussman in 1975, and he and Sussman published an early widely cited paper on AI truth maintenance and dependency-directed backtracking in 1977. It was openly known by many people on the ARPANET that his password was "rms", and he welcomed people to log in and use his account. And the ARPANET was a very small tightly knit circle, were everybody knew each other, back in the days of NCP, when host numbers were only 8 bits, so there could be no more than 256 hosts, and homosocketuality was prohibited, before "Flag Day" in 1983 when they switched to TCP/IP with its 32 bit addresses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Control_Program
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14178653
So it's supremely ironic, ignorant, and insulting that you would mistakenly short measure the temporal extent of RMS's fame by the young age of "Linux", instead of saying "Gnu/Linux". Obviously you have never met him personally and triggered him by saying "Linux" instead of "Gnu/Linux" in his presence, and that shows you know very little about the history of FSF or the personality of RMS. He'd probably be furious with you for what you said about his fame following the success of the first "Linux".
Richard Stallman when you call it Linux instead of GNU/Linux:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8VgjZUel6M&ab_channel=DullB...
Devon just created an account and replied above. It turns out I was mistaken about the particular tree: it was actually the tree around the corner of the house that was outside the bedroom window. But Devon confirms that people of all genders at the AI/LCS lab hung ferns in their offices to keep RMS away.
You probably want to interrogate and insult him directly if you still believe he's a "lying" "creepy" "spoiled brat" (although I have no idea how you so "surely" inferred those specific labels from the photographs -- did you use Facebook's computer vision AI?), at the risk of being banned from HN for antisocial behavior, but I suggest you remain civil, since you're the one who's hypocritically defending RMS's behavior while lecturing other people about civility while incorrectly labeling and insulting them and their friends, based on your imagination and no evidence or first hand experience whatsoever.
https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-apologizes-artifici...
And yes, RMS did have many groupies in 1986 and long before, and he was quite well known even in the 70's, in certain circles. He started working at the MIT AI Lab in 1971, with Gerald Sussman in 1975, and he and Sussman published an early widely cited paper on AI truth maintenance and dependency-directed backtracking in 1977. It was openly known by many people on the ARPANET that his password was "rms", and he welcomed people to log in and use his account. And the ARPANET was a very small tightly knit circle, were everybody knew each other, back in the days of NCP, when host numbers were only 8 bits, so there could be no more than 256 hosts, and homosocketuality was prohibited, before "Flag Day" in 1983 when they switched to TCP/IP with its 32 bit addresses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Control_Program
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14178653
So it's supremely ironic, ignorant, and insulting that you would mistakenly short measure the temporal extent of RMS's fame by the young age of "Linux", instead of saying "Gnu/Linux". Obviously you have never met him personally and triggered him by saying "Linux" instead of "Gnu/Linux" in his presence, and that shows you know very little about the history of FSF or the personality of RMS. He'd probably be furious with you for what you said about his fame following the success of the first "Linux".
Richard Stallman when you call it Linux instead of GNU/Linux:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8VgjZUel6M&ab_channel=DullB...
I'm very specifically referring in my post to the creation of Linux, the kernel. Sorry if it was ambiguous to you. I'm aware that GNU predates Linux but a GNU without Linux never would had the same popularity as it has. HURD never has been widely adopted.
> You could trigger Stallman! is a bad man!
I'm not worried by that possibility. Maybe Stallman should be worried by my answers. Dunno.
If is a problem to you, can I suggest to call it LiGNUx as a compromise solution and end this old war? Feel free to also use Stallmanix, or Stallpple if you use Hurd. As long as it works, I don't care about the name.
> You could trigger Stallman! is a bad man!
I'm not worried by that possibility. Maybe Stallman should be worried by my answers. Dunno.
If is a problem to you, can I suggest to call it LiGNUx as a compromise solution and end this old war? Feel free to also use Stallmanix, or Stallpple if you use Hurd. As long as it works, I don't care about the name.
> And yes, RMS did have many groupies in 1986 and long before, and he was quite well known even in the 70's
I stand corrected, then. Thanks.
I stand corrected, then. Thanks.
To set the record straight, the tree I'm climbing in the photos was the tree by the living room. The tree by the big bedroom was around the corner and had the compound leaves RMS fears.
AI/LCS denizens of every gender hung potted ferns in their Tech Square offices to keep RMS away. He once asked me which Lab women I liked and I foolishly answered, to the distress of the grad student in question, as I learned later when she rightly chewed me out.
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unless you're married. Then it's an admission you've fucked up
/s
/s
If the only time you bring flowers is when you "fucked up", you've already lost.
Get in the habit of buying flowers regularly (weekly). You can rack up enough points to stay in the bonus round with your SO.
Get in the habit of buying flowers regularly (weekly). You can rack up enough points to stay in the bonus round with your SO.
As a truck driver, just about every day is just about the same, so I lose track.
But I am sometimes reminded that it's Mother's day (the actual Sunday), when I'm in a Walmart on a Sunday morning (maybe I parked there the night before) and see a few men that need a shave, looking over the flowers, often with a kid or two tagging along.
But I am sometimes reminded that it's Mother's day (the actual Sunday), when I'm in a Walmart on a Sunday morning (maybe I parked there the night before) and see a few men that need a shave, looking over the flowers, often with a kid or two tagging along.
This may be controversial but I think money is the best gift. With money one can purchase whatever one wants. From my experience I rarely got what I want when I received a gift.
One of my favorite gifts was a picture painted by my son aged 3 of him riding on my shoulders. Our faces are yellow and we have sun-rays coming out of our heads instead of hair. It’s glorious.
No amount of money in the world could have caused that picture to exist.
No amount of money in the world could have caused that picture to exist.
On the other hand, if I know exactly what I want and can afford it, I have already bought or ordered it. Probably the question is whether gifts change what you can afford - for example, it does so for kids, but doesn't do so for a median middle-age person where a random gain or loss of e.g. a day's wages does not (or should not) change your behavior but only slightly change the current balance of your pool of savings or debt.
So from that perspective, decent gifts are exactly those that you would like to have but in an ordinary situation would not buy; like something that's nice instead of the "best price/performance" option that you might buy otherwise if you'd have the cash, something a bit extraordinary (even if it's a small thing) for the celebration.
So from that perspective, decent gifts are exactly those that you would like to have but in an ordinary situation would not buy; like something that's nice instead of the "best price/performance" option that you might buy otherwise if you'd have the cash, something a bit extraordinary (even if it's a small thing) for the celebration.
One of the main point of gift giving to me is the curation : trying to find something that you think the other one would like, showing that you know and understand the other person.
Giving money is basically completely giving up on the curation part, which makes the gift extremely impersonal. It's marginally better than a very bad gift, but to me it would not qualify as a good gift in any case
Giving money is basically completely giving up on the curation part, which makes the gift extremely impersonal. It's marginally better than a very bad gift, but to me it would not qualify as a good gift in any case
The best gifts operate at a sort of conversational / semantic level, where the item itself is a beautiful reminder of a person that you love. The very best gift deeply acknowledges both you and your likes/dislikes as a person, while also finding a special deep connection to the gift-giver. Much like "a picture is worth a thousand words," the perfect gift is a reminder of a thousand conversations and intimate moments.
If you are not searching for the semantics of the gift you received, then you may be missing out on the most important part of the gift.
...that said, I think the best gifts are still consumable so that they do not burden the gift receiver, and/or are handmade or cleverly devised by the giver.
If you are not searching for the semantics of the gift you received, then you may be missing out on the most important part of the gift.
...that said, I think the best gifts are still consumable so that they do not burden the gift receiver, and/or are handmade or cleverly devised by the giver.
it's the thought that counts. Money often comes across as a thoughtless (easy) gift, and often comes with strings attached, which is why it's not often used in western culture. Money is a great gift for someone who really needs it.
> Money is a great gift for someone who really needs it.
Perhaps ask the opinion of others in a similar situation first?
There are a lot of overtones to money, perceived status signalling being an ugly one. I have more than one friend that really needs money, but they would definitely feel hurt if I did the simplest thing and just gave them money, so I have to be more creative to find ways to help that are joyful.
Perhaps ask the opinion of others in a similar situation first?
There are a lot of overtones to money, perceived status signalling being an ugly one. I have more than one friend that really needs money, but they would definitely feel hurt if I did the simplest thing and just gave them money, so I have to be more creative to find ways to help that are joyful.
I think the relationship with the giver makes a big difference - the intent may be clearer. I was thinking in terms of wedding gifts, birthday gifts, etc. There are lots of other types of gifts where money wouldn't be very acceptable for anyone - eg housewarming/visitor gifts.
I am told that giving flowers on mother's day is rather gauche since it highlights the fact you don't think of your mother the other 364(5) days a year. I found a service that let me pay once and schedule a delivery a month for a year solved this particular problem.
About a week before valentines and mother's day, go behind the flower store and do some dumpster diving. You will find hundreds of roses, arrangements, baskets, etc all thrown out. The dumpers will be nearly full. Grab big handfuls and pick through them for all the good stuff and you'll be able to make some pretty fantastic arrangements, all for free.
I disagree. If someone gifted me flowers, I would say, stop killing plants for my pleasure.
If cutting the flowers from the plant is killing the plant, then there are going to be a lot of upset vegetarian and vegans.
Yes, the flowers that are cut are going to wither and die, but they would do this anyways if left attached to the plant. The mere cutting of the flower is not going to kill the plant.
Yes, the flowers that are cut are going to wither and die, but they would do this anyways if left attached to the plant. The mere cutting of the flower is not going to kill the plant.
I actually felt the same about it as GP (if perhaps not as strongly; I still buy flowers for my mom even if I wouldn't be thrilled to receive them regularly myself), but didn't yet consider it like this.
Thanks for that comment, this makes sense. They're still being grown for this purpose so it's still resources being used, but yeah it's not necessarily just ripping plants out of the ground which is how I (without thinking it through, stupidly) pictured it. I should check how it compares to other gift-type items, perhaps they're not a bad generic gift at all. (Of course a gift that someone wished for and will use for years is always better, but that's far from always possible.)
Thanks for that comment, this makes sense. They're still being grown for this purpose so it's still resources being used, but yeah it's not necessarily just ripping plants out of the ground which is how I (without thinking it through, stupidly) pictured it. I should check how it compares to other gift-type items, perhaps they're not a bad generic gift at all. (Of course a gift that someone wished for and will use for years is always better, but that's far from always possible.)
Actually, vegetarian and vegans APPROVE of killing and eating plants. It's ANIMALS that they don't want to kill and eat.
Or does PETA stand for People for the Ethical Treatment of Asparagus?
Or does PETA stand for People for the Ethical Treatment of Asparagus?
Harvesting fruits and vegetables does not mean killing the plant. The only plants that are really killed are the tuber types and other plants where the root is the food, but again, they are going to die anyways once the season changes.
You're trying really hard at something, just not sure what it is
You're trying really hard at something, just not sure what it is
That's even worse! Harvesting and eating fruits and vegetables means killing a plant's children. Many animals including humans will die defending their children. What makes it ok to kill baby plants? So tragic. ;)
I would think twice before getting flowers for anybody who likes gardening. Chances are they would prefer to receive a plant.
Hard disagree.
For someone’s hobby or passion, they generally have quite specific taste on what they want, and it is very difficult to pick something they will actually like (unless carefully asking them, undoing part of the pleasure of a gift).
If everybody knows someone loves plants, they will often get plants as presents, and the person is likely very practised at feigning pleasure at receiving a plant they don’t need or want. An example would be a kid who knows you like tools buying you a cheap nasty screwdriver - you grin and appreciate the thought.
For someone’s hobby or passion, they generally have quite specific taste on what they want, and it is very difficult to pick something they will actually like (unless carefully asking them, undoing part of the pleasure of a gift).
If everybody knows someone loves plants, they will often get plants as presents, and the person is likely very practised at feigning pleasure at receiving a plant they don’t need or want. An example would be a kid who knows you like tools buying you a cheap nasty screwdriver - you grin and appreciate the thought.
If you're not familiar with their specific garden and the plants they like, cut flowers might be safer. Also it can be nice to have them inside and off-season as well. As the article says, "Flowers come without any obligations." That's what's so nice about them.
I am an avid gardner. I have a house full of plants, plus a front and back garden, plus a patch of veg. I enjoy gardening immensely. Although I do like getting plants as gifts, I very much still like enjoy cut flowers, and you know why?
> Flowers don’t take any effort on your part to be enjoyed. [...] Flowers come without any obligations.
Just like the article says.
> Flowers don’t take any effort on your part to be enjoyed. [...] Flowers come without any obligations.
Just like the article says.
Was this some kind of HN ranking hack or are we really this lacking in news today? Or perhaps so socially stunted as a group that we need this sort of thing pointed out? Wait, maybe don’t answer that.
Guys, I have a girlfriend.
If I buy her flowers, she seems to really appreciate it.
Other suggestions, such as dumpster diving for flowers may not be appreciated as much.
Make of that what you will.
If I buy her flowers, she seems to really appreciate it.
Other suggestions, such as dumpster diving for flowers may not be appreciated as much.
Make of that what you will.
Yeah, we get it: you have a girlfriend. Congrats.
He may be underestimating the effort required to find a vase to put them in; make sure you place them somewhere they don't parish; if someone handed them to you now you have to go home and put them in a vase or they'll die; after a few days if you don't throw them out your entire home will be filled with unpleasant oder. The list just keeps going.
Yeah, like when someone buys you a Lego set and you have to cut the tape sealing the box shut, and put it in the recycling bin, and open all those little plastic bags. What jerks to put you to all that trouble.
Plenty of florists will deliver flowers with a vase included. They can even decorate the vase with a ribbon.
It's a solved problem and a courteous touch.
It's a solved problem and a courteous touch.
For the guys, always have a vase on hand at home. It doesn't matter much the quality/price. Whenever inviting a friend over, throw some flowers in it. Even if its a bundle from the grocery store. The impression it makes is well worth it. If you really don't like having the flower, give them away at the end of your get together. 2nd good impression from the same source.
As someone else pointed out, the type of flower and the color of the flowers have meanings that you might be unaware. FYI
Some flowers are more fragrant than others, and some have longer "shelf" life. Roses tend to wilt quickly, and aren't the most fragant (to fill a room). Lillies (stargazers, etc) will last a lot longer, and their fragrance can fill a room. ProTip: Once the lilly blooms, pinch off the stamen which is covered in pollen. They will drop off naturally even if you don't, but when the do the pollen dust gets on everything.
Keeping flowers cool prevents them from opening, so if you are buying something in advance you can clear out space in the fridge to help prolong them.
If you need flowers to bloom faster because you forgot and bought last second, you can try using a hair dryer to encourage them to bloom. There's a method to this, so you can read up on it. Bright light is your friend as well. A sunny window is perfect. Avoid the cold.
If the flowers came with a bag of powder as flower food, use only half of it or less. Use more when you change out the water. You should change the water out every couple of days at the longest if not daily for best results.