California May Be the First State to Legislate Amazon Warehouse Conditions(themarkup.org)
themarkup.org
California May Be the First State to Legislate Amazon Warehouse Conditions
https://themarkup.org/news/2021/09/13/california-may-be-the-first-state-to-legislate-amazon-warehouse-conditions
47 comments
A warehouse is huge. A 5min walk to the restroom isn’t unreasonable. Id assume it takes a similar amount of time at usps, ups, fedex, and most large-scale domestic manufacturing facilities
True, but Amazon apparently ignores that fact when calculating bathroom break time. 60 minutes of bathroom time isn't unreasonable over a 10 hour shift, if 30+ minutes of that is walking to/from the bathroom.
I've worked (in software) for a retailer before and did a "day in the life" of a warehouse employee.
This was overall not a great company that gave two shits about their employees.
But they did have the punch clock in a central location, near the bathrooms.
To be able to punch out, you need to walk your ass over there in the first place. And that's how it should be.
This was overall not a great company that gave two shits about their employees.
But they did have the punch clock in a central location, near the bathrooms.
To be able to punch out, you need to walk your ass over there in the first place. And that's how it should be.
Those aren't facts, they are a fired employees opinion.
Is there a reason they don't just have more bathrooms? A 5 minute walk to the bathroom seems further than you would walk in any mall.
>Is there a reason they don't just have more bathrooms
setting up the plumbing to all areas of the warehouse is expensive.
>A 5 minute walk to the bathroom seems further than you would walk in any mall.
5 minute seems about right for a mall if you factor in the time looking for it.
setting up the plumbing to all areas of the warehouse is expensive.
>A 5 minute walk to the bathroom seems further than you would walk in any mall.
5 minute seems about right for a mall if you factor in the time looking for it.
5 minutes doesn't seem unreasonable for a large building - if you're in IKEA and have to get to the entrance to find a bathroom it might take that long; or you're on a soccer field.
What's unreasonable is not accounting for that time.
What's unreasonable is not accounting for that time.
Because they are cheapskates and want to squeeze out the maximum profit with the least effort.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57849364
Every dollar spent on bathrooms is a dollar Bezos can't spend on going to space.
Every dollar spent on bathrooms is a dollar Bezos can't spend on going to space.
An obvious approach comes to mind.
From the video I saw from Amazon about their warehouses, they work like this.
1. The goods are stored in stand-alone cabinets containing multiple slide-out bins. The cabinets are stored in a large section of the warehouse that humans do not normally go into.
2. When an order needs an item stored in bin X of cabinet Y, one of Amazon's robots (a short flat wheeled robot--like a robot vacuum but squarer and beefier) moves to under cabinet Y and lifts it and brings it to the workstation of the worker who is packing the order.
3. When the cabinet arrives at the workstation the system shines a light on bin X. The worker grabs the required item from that bin and packs it into the outgoing order. Repeat for any other bins with items needed from that cabinet. Then the cabinet is taken away (back to storage or I would guess to the next worker who needs something from it).
4. Similar for received items. The system brings the cabinet the item is to be stored in to the worker, shines lights on the bins the worker can put it in, notes which bin the worker put it in, and when done with that worker takes the cabinet away for storage.
So...why not get a bunch of portable toilets mounted on bases that the robots can move (or better designed specifically for Amazon's needs)? When a worker needs a bathroom break they could inform the system and it could bring a toilet to them.
This would also allow the toilets to be brought to a specific area for cleaning rather than having a janitor have to make rounds. The toilets could probably be designed to make it easy to automate much of this.
From the video I saw from Amazon about their warehouses, they work like this.
1. The goods are stored in stand-alone cabinets containing multiple slide-out bins. The cabinets are stored in a large section of the warehouse that humans do not normally go into.
2. When an order needs an item stored in bin X of cabinet Y, one of Amazon's robots (a short flat wheeled robot--like a robot vacuum but squarer and beefier) moves to under cabinet Y and lifts it and brings it to the workstation of the worker who is packing the order.
3. When the cabinet arrives at the workstation the system shines a light on bin X. The worker grabs the required item from that bin and packs it into the outgoing order. Repeat for any other bins with items needed from that cabinet. Then the cabinet is taken away (back to storage or I would guess to the next worker who needs something from it).
4. Similar for received items. The system brings the cabinet the item is to be stored in to the worker, shines lights on the bins the worker can put it in, notes which bin the worker put it in, and when done with that worker takes the cabinet away for storage.
So...why not get a bunch of portable toilets mounted on bases that the robots can move (or better designed specifically for Amazon's needs)? When a worker needs a bathroom break they could inform the system and it could bring a toilet to them.
This would also allow the toilets to be brought to a specific area for cleaning rather than having a janitor have to make rounds. The toilets could probably be designed to make it easy to automate much of this.
Under the warehouse system you described, wouldn't all the workers be concentrated in one place? Why would you need moving toilets? I'd imagine the "I need to walk 5 minutes to go to the bathroom" complaints come from warehouses that don't have the moving shelves, so workers have to walk around the entire warehouse, leading to a 5 minute walk to the bathroom if they're on the far end of the warehouse.
I don't think this is the right question to ask. The break may just need to be longer and they are using the walk to the bathroom as an example.
Why not have a portable bathroom on a forklift and bring it to the employees that need it?
Don't most people have a very strong preference for their bathroom to have plumbing hookups?
They do.
This would be the next best thing.
https://www.unitedsiteservices.com/what-we-offer/portable-re...
This would be the next best thing.
https://www.unitedsiteservices.com/what-we-offer/portable-re...
> The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics cites data that shows warehouse workers are injured nearly twice as often as other workers in the private sector.
That does not seem strange? At one end you the scale you have sedentary office jobs so a warehouse job being ~2-3x higher seems pretty normal.
> Lightly added that the data on musculoskeletal injuries, such as sprains, strained muscles, and torn ligaments, at Amazon’s warehouses “is skewed.” She said that’s because the company’s workforce has many people in the 18 to 24 age range, which she said is more likely than other age groups to claim work-related musculoskeletal injuries.
Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite.
There are many other factors at play. If the warehouse is at a reasonable temperature, good airflow, etc. and you are provided/reimbursed the cost of footwear then it doesn't seem like it would be too bad compared to other physical labor jobs but since the number of workers is so large it makes the news.
I would be surprised if Amazon's warehouse was worse than farm labor jobs considering exposure to heat and the elements. If we want to raise the floor on work safety/comfort, IMO it would make sense to impose these requirements for all jobs rather than single out warehouse jobs.
There's a danger with targeted legislation like this because it could lead to a scenario where the 'cost' of these restrictions is more easily absorbed by a company like Amazon or Walmart but a small warehouse company or even a new Amazon competitor has a harder time competing because the new regulatory burdens increase the barrier to entry.
That does not seem strange? At one end you the scale you have sedentary office jobs so a warehouse job being ~2-3x higher seems pretty normal.
> Lightly added that the data on musculoskeletal injuries, such as sprains, strained muscles, and torn ligaments, at Amazon’s warehouses “is skewed.” She said that’s because the company’s workforce has many people in the 18 to 24 age range, which she said is more likely than other age groups to claim work-related musculoskeletal injuries.
Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite.
There are many other factors at play. If the warehouse is at a reasonable temperature, good airflow, etc. and you are provided/reimbursed the cost of footwear then it doesn't seem like it would be too bad compared to other physical labor jobs but since the number of workers is so large it makes the news.
I would be surprised if Amazon's warehouse was worse than farm labor jobs considering exposure to heat and the elements. If we want to raise the floor on work safety/comfort, IMO it would make sense to impose these requirements for all jobs rather than single out warehouse jobs.
There's a danger with targeted legislation like this because it could lead to a scenario where the 'cost' of these restrictions is more easily absorbed by a company like Amazon or Walmart but a small warehouse company or even a new Amazon competitor has a harder time competing because the new regulatory burdens increase the barrier to entry.
> She said that’s because the company’s workforce has many people in the 18 to 24 age range, which she said is more likely than other age groups to claim work-related musculoskeletal injuries.
> Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite.
Hypothetically, I can imagine that older workers (who potentially have a harder time finding employment) under-report their own injuries, given at-will employment.
> Interesting if true since I would expect the opposite.
Hypothetically, I can imagine that older workers (who potentially have a harder time finding employment) under-report their own injuries, given at-will employment.
Good. I have no sympathy for businesses who say this will increase costs -- if you wanted to head this off by improving matters yourselves you had ample opportunity. I'm more than OK with California hopping in here, and I hope other states follow.
Since everyone may have different bathroom timing needs, how does one develop a policy that accounts for that, but doesn't just let someone go sit on the toilet for half an hour playing on their phone?
This might sound very naive but there is a huge worker shortage out there, so if working in an Amazon warehouse is so bad why do people do it?
> This might sound very naive but there is a huge jobs shortage out there, so if working in an Amazon warehouse is so bad why do people do it?
You're assuming that people can relocate on a whim, considering the rental prices right now? If an Amazon warehouse is what pays the most at a 30 miles distance, that's where people are going to go.
The "job shortage" isn't distributed equally on the surface of USA either.
You're assuming that people can relocate on a whim, considering the rental prices right now? If an Amazon warehouse is what pays the most at a 30 miles distance, that's where people are going to go.
The "job shortage" isn't distributed equally on the surface of USA either.
any data on that?
Data on what? "Relocation is unpleasant, time-consuming, and expensive"? "Jobs aren't equally distributed geographically"?
Worker shortages mostly seem to exist in service industry jobs that are also kind of shitty to work in and are low pay.
skill, location, availability of jobs nearby. Surely you can think of a hundred more reason why it would be the least-worse choice even if it sucks
Because a lot of people are happy to have any job. You need some level of understanding of the market and qualifications to be able to pick better jobs. And if you have worked in bad jobs for a while you probably don’t even know that things are better somewhere else.
The same happens in higher qualified jobs too. Why do so many programmers work in abusive companies while there are better companies out there? Maybe they lack the initiative, qualifications or just understanding to apply at better companies. Whatever it is, the fact that people go for those jobs shouldn’t be an excuse for abuse by employers.
Otherwise we could tell abused spouses the abuse is ok because they should have left if they don’t like it.
The same happens in higher qualified jobs too. Why do so many programmers work in abusive companies while there are better companies out there? Maybe they lack the initiative, qualifications or just understanding to apply at better companies. Whatever it is, the fact that people go for those jobs shouldn’t be an excuse for abuse by employers.
Otherwise we could tell abused spouses the abuse is ok because they should have left if they don’t like it.
Because the social safety net in the US basically requires one to work a job (with Senators even arguing for work requirements for the child tax credit!). Employers are in on this as well, so they know they can offer the bare minimum in terms of salary, safety, benefits, etc.
It also takes a lot of resources (time + money) to get the skills necessary to enter a profession or some skilled labor job.
tl; dr: The alternatives are often another similarly poor job, losing whatever paltry support the government is providing, and/or being one medical condition away from financial ruin.
It also takes a lot of resources (time + money) to get the skills necessary to enter a profession or some skilled labor job.
tl; dr: The alternatives are often another similarly poor job, losing whatever paltry support the government is providing, and/or being one medical condition away from financial ruin.
Not naive, rather privileged.
A slightly different but related question that hopefully everyone will find interesting, no matter what affect they attach to Amazon warehouse working conditions:
Food service in particular, I think, is having a lot more difficulty hiring and retaining people than they're used to, even with considerably higher wages and hiring bonuses, but if you believe what you read in the news then it sounds like Amazon warehouses aren't (otherwise you'd think they'd ease up a little on being hardasses). These aren't exactly the same type of job, but they're "pretty similar" in many ways. So, what's the difference?
Food service in particular, I think, is having a lot more difficulty hiring and retaining people than they're used to, even with considerably higher wages and hiring bonuses, but if you believe what you read in the news then it sounds like Amazon warehouses aren't (otherwise you'd think they'd ease up a little on being hardasses). These aren't exactly the same type of job, but they're "pretty similar" in many ways. So, what's the difference?
Amazon (along with most warehouse and factory jobs) probably hires people for full time jobs with predictable hours, which retail and food service jobs generally don't.
The warehouse potentially pays more...
$18/hour starting wage in the warehouse.
$11-$17/hour starting wage at McDonalds.
Location is a factor. Some of the warehouses are located in the far outer suburbs, making them the largest employer in some areas/towns.
Location is a factor. Some of the warehouses are located in the far outer suburbs, making them the largest employer in some areas/towns.
Oh good, the people who brought you forest fires, rolling blackouts, and rampant looting will be sure to fix everything.
At least they're trying. The status quo isn't working. If you have a better suggestion, I'm sure they'd love to hear it.
They are the status quo. They are the ones that are not working.
The implication is that those are caused/exacerbated by deliberate actions, rather than issues that came out of nowhere. Of the ones listed:
- forest fires: newsom cut state wildfire prevention budgets
- rolling blackouts: pg&e neglected to properly maintain electricity lines
- rampant looting: prop 47, san francisco DA that refuses to prosecute minor crimes (like looting)
- forest fires: newsom cut state wildfire prevention budgets
- rolling blackouts: pg&e neglected to properly maintain electricity lines
- rampant looting: prop 47, san francisco DA that refuses to prosecute minor crimes (like looting)
The fact is that PG&E does not provide power to the entire state. LA's DWP (municipal), SCE, and SDG&E serve major areas.
They may be trying but everything they’ve done has put a California in a death spiral like a declining civilization. Driving the 5 is like Mad Max Fury Road. Every year the state gets more lawless and hellish and poverty increases. Democrats have a super majority and just put embarrassingly woke policies into place that do nothing to solve the opioid, meth, crime, or other problems ravaging the state. Last night I was in a parking lot with my 14 month old daughter and there were literally 3 screaming insane people in the parking lot within 40 feet… How are people supposed to feel safe with kids?
> Every year the state gets more lawless and hellish and poverty increases.
This just isn't true. Poverty has been decreasing in California (https://www.statista.com/statistics/205434/poverty-rate-in-c...), as has crime (https://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/). Numbers more recent than 2019 seem to show that poverty is about unchanged; property crime is down; and violent crime is up, but not up to "lawless hellscape" levels.
> 3 screaming insane people in the parking lot
We used to throw "crazy" people into institutions without a second thought, but that changed a long time ago and not just in California. If you want to bring that back I'm afraid you'll face an uphill battle, but more power to you.
This just isn't true. Poverty has been decreasing in California (https://www.statista.com/statistics/205434/poverty-rate-in-c...), as has crime (https://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/). Numbers more recent than 2019 seem to show that poverty is about unchanged; property crime is down; and violent crime is up, but not up to "lawless hellscape" levels.
> 3 screaming insane people in the parking lot
We used to throw "crazy" people into institutions without a second thought, but that changed a long time ago and not just in California. If you want to bring that back I'm afraid you'll face an uphill battle, but more power to you.
You can look at the data for San Francisco on the police department website:
https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...
Comparing August 2021 to August 2020 Larceny/Theft is up 11.5%, Assault is up 34.6%, Robbery is up 16.3%. And that doesn't count the people who just don't bother to report crimes because they know nothing will be done about it. Your link says its data ends in 2019 and has only limited, preliminary data from 2020. If property crime is down, why are retailers closing stores and cutting hours due to rampant shoplifting?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/target-closing-san-fran...
> We used to throw "crazy" people into institutions without a second thought, but that changed a long time ago and not just in California. If you want to bring that back I'm afraid you'll face an uphill battle, but more power to you.
False dichotomy. We don't need to imprison people with Nurse Ratched and give them forced lobotomies to get dangerously unbalanced people off the streets. Whatever the solution is, CA's policy is clearly not working as evidenced by the growing tent cities.
https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/crim...
Comparing August 2021 to August 2020 Larceny/Theft is up 11.5%, Assault is up 34.6%, Robbery is up 16.3%. And that doesn't count the people who just don't bother to report crimes because they know nothing will be done about it. Your link says its data ends in 2019 and has only limited, preliminary data from 2020. If property crime is down, why are retailers closing stores and cutting hours due to rampant shoplifting?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/target-closing-san-fran...
> We used to throw "crazy" people into institutions without a second thought, but that changed a long time ago and not just in California. If you want to bring that back I'm afraid you'll face an uphill battle, but more power to you.
False dichotomy. We don't need to imprison people with Nurse Ratched and give them forced lobotomies to get dangerously unbalanced people off the streets. Whatever the solution is, CA's policy is clearly not working as evidenced by the growing tent cities.
My comments were about California overall, and San Francisco isn’t California. Even if it were, crime can be trending down over time even if there have been recent spikes that are worth addressing.
I just don’t think it’s fair to call the state a nightmare hellscape.
On Nurse Ratched … you’re twisting my words. I didn’t say the alternative was torturing the mentally ill, I said it was institutionalizing them. Deinstitutionalization had benefits and drawbacks, one of the latter of which was the severely mentally ill now being homeless.
I just don’t think it’s fair to call the state a nightmare hellscape.
On Nurse Ratched … you’re twisting my words. I didn’t say the alternative was torturing the mentally ill, I said it was institutionalizing them. Deinstitutionalization had benefits and drawbacks, one of the latter of which was the severely mentally ill now being homeless.
How does every developed country manage to be so much cleaner then? I find all your excuses inadequate. And we still have the highest poverty rate in the country—it probably only marginally declined due to stimulus and COVID relief.
There are more tents and people camping on the street and openly using drugs and brazenly stealing than ever before. California looks like a failing civilization to people from Western Europe.
There are more tents and people camping on the street and openly using drugs and brazenly stealing than ever before. California looks like a failing civilization to people from Western Europe.
Property crime is “down” because CA now doesn’t consider anything below $1,000 damage a crime.
This isn't true; the law you're probably thinking of merely reclassified felonies as misdemeanors. And even if it were true that damages < $1000 weren't prosecuted they'd still show up in crime statistics. Even even if that weren't the case, you wouldn't see a steady decrease in property crime every year -- you'd see a sudden dropoff in 2014.
Nice try, though!
Nice try, though!
Pretty sure OSHA already regulates warehouses.
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"We’re committed to giving our employees the resources they need to be successful, creating time for regular breaks and a comfortable pace."
with a straight face, while being presented with the facts that the opposite is true.
"“Three times,” she said she responded, thinking about how it took five minutes to walk each way across the warehouse floor to get to the bathroom."
My guess is that Amazon managers, facing this horrible fact that people have to walk 5 min to the toilet, would introduce some innovative ML-driven solution like "fast portable toilet" (that is a pee bottles that employees will have to carry with them and managers will be cheering up that the solution fully meets all the company diversity and inclusion standards).