St. John's woman loses home after Phoenix pay fiasco(cbc.ca)
cbc.ca
St. John's woman loses home after Phoenix pay fiasco
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/phoenix-pay-joanne-osmond-1.6500083
24 comments
Giant systems of immense complexity that nobody can understand, what could go wrong? And even if they’re a complete failure, they’ll never admit to it
And the really frustrating thing is - there are people (like me and others on here right now) who'd be perfectly happy to sit and unravel and fix this monstrosity, but software development "how long is that going to take? And you'd better say a day" methodology prohibits any sort of complex/deep work.
Why would they choose you, when the contracted company can bill $300/hr per developer for 'change requests' to fix the system. They don't want to fix it, they want to fix each individual problem as it comes up.
I read one expert describe the Phoenix pay system as "garbage in, garbage out". The government signed hundreds of separate collective bargaining agreements with public sector unions, each with their own different rules for pay, overtime, etc, making the system highly complex. Because of this complexity, the software handling it is full of bugs. Arguably it's partially a failure on the government's part not to negotiate a standard set of pay practices.
The Phoenix pay system is something crafted by the previous government (under Harper) with the idea of creating a "Shared Government Services" department so that each department would not have its own pay system, its own email, etc. The only redundant systems permitted were those related to national security (and AIUI, that was grudgingly given).
It’s completely unsurprising that a top-down mandating of shared services requiring a rewrite / reimplementation of pretty much everything that government departments use would go bad very quickly and have lingering effects. It’s also understandable that it was impossible to reverse the course once started, because institutional knowledge was lost (people who knew how the old systems worked retired out or quit, etc.). This, of course, has led to throwing more money at a money pit.
Fortunately, it looks like they’ve finally filled it—but that doesn’t do anything for the thousands of people who were broken by this boondoggle.
It’s completely unsurprising that a top-down mandating of shared services requiring a rewrite / reimplementation of pretty much everything that government departments use would go bad very quickly and have lingering effects. It’s also understandable that it was impossible to reverse the course once started, because institutional knowledge was lost (people who knew how the old systems worked retired out or quit, etc.). This, of course, has led to throwing more money at a money pit.
Fortunately, it looks like they’ve finally filled it—but that doesn’t do anything for the thousands of people who were broken by this boondoggle.
That reminds me of "Why Payroll is Hard" - https://wiki.c2.com/?WhyIsPayrollHard
However, that isn't an excuse for the "we need to be able to audit the system and explain where each cent in the deductions goes." For anything dealing with money, that is a fundamental and necessary requirement.
Bugs happen. Payroll is one of the the more complex systems. Payroll without auditing is something that is unforgivable.
However, that isn't an excuse for the "we need to be able to audit the system and explain where each cent in the deductions goes." For anything dealing with money, that is a fundamental and necessary requirement.
Bugs happen. Payroll is one of the the more complex systems. Payroll without auditing is something that is unforgivable.
> The government signed hundreds of separate collective bargaining agreements with public sector unions... Arguably it's partially a failure on the government's part not to negotiate a standard set of pay practices.
Honestly, I doubt the fault lies with unions. Did their previous pay system handle this? Don't private sector companies handle lots of different union rules? Doesn't stuff like SAP handle far more complicated legal and accounting rules across many many nations?
My guess is what really happened is they cheaped out given their requirements and/or adopted too-aggressive deadlines, and the failure proceeded from there.
> Because of this complexity, the software handling it is full of bugs.
The world is complicated. It's hella backwards to expect it to twist to conform to what would be simple to implement in software.
Honestly, I doubt the fault lies with unions. Did their previous pay system handle this? Don't private sector companies handle lots of different union rules? Doesn't stuff like SAP handle far more complicated legal and accounting rules across many many nations?
My guess is what really happened is they cheaped out given their requirements and/or adopted too-aggressive deadlines, and the failure proceeded from there.
> Because of this complexity, the software handling it is full of bugs.
The world is complicated. It's hella backwards to expect it to twist to conform to what would be simple to implement in software.
Or, they could have built a system capable of having a bunch of different knobs and levers that each CBA represents.
Life is complex, technology should support that. We should not have to dumb life down to match.
Life is complex, technology should support that. We should not have to dumb life down to match.
> Life is complex, technology should support that. We should not have to dumb life down to match.
This sentence implies that the opposite of "complex" is "dumb", though.
This sentence implies that the opposite of "complex" is "dumb", though.
I'm not sure why they aren't treating this as a possible embezzlement? It seems to me like anyone familiar with this system could take payments for someone apparently without tracking and the result would be clawed back from later paychecks. Who is to say if 200k illegitimate bank accounts are receiving transfers every month?
It's been 5 years since she first got $0 paychecks and this still hasn't been resolved?
I'm confused why the union or whoever can't sue the government on their behalf. Or some lawyer takes on a bunch of their cases if it's 200k people affected.
I'm confused why the union or whoever can't sue the government on their behalf. Or some lawyer takes on a bunch of their cases if it's 200k people affected.
The union can file a grievance with the government, but it can takes years to go through all the processes. She can't sue on her own.
Some other context on the system:
Anger rising over failed Phoenix Pay system - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1173674563714 (4 years ago)
Former CRA auditor says even he ‘cannot fathom’ way out of Phoenix mess - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2039588419529
Public servants express 'zero faith' in Phoenix damages claims process after long waits - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/public-servant-phoenix...
(topic) Phoenix Falling - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/topic/Tag/Phoenix%20Falling
Phoenix 'nightmare' still haunting public servants, more than 6 years on https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-pay-system-iss...
Ottawa spent $560-million on damages over the Phoenix pay system, records show https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-paid...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system
The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada - Phoenix Pay category - https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/phoenix-pay-system (lots of linked articles)
Anger rising over failed Phoenix Pay system - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1173674563714 (4 years ago)
Former CRA auditor says even he ‘cannot fathom’ way out of Phoenix mess - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2039588419529
Public servants express 'zero faith' in Phoenix damages claims process after long waits - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/public-servant-phoenix...
(topic) Phoenix Falling - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/topic/Tag/Phoenix%20Falling
Phoenix 'nightmare' still haunting public servants, more than 6 years on https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-pay-system-iss...
Ottawa spent $560-million on damages over the Phoenix pay system, records show https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-paid...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system
The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada - Phoenix Pay category - https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/phoenix-pay-system (lots of linked articles)
it seems to be a natural law that once a society takes the steps to create a government that "grants" rights to the citizens, the road to a hell is already paved. It is now inevitable that the government will see citizens as their property, and all justice is lost.
IBM famously screwed up Texas' transit tag billing, too.
I'm confused about why she stayed? It doesn't say she ever got any money back. I would be gone after the first 0$ check, why would you stay after that?
She was working for the Canadian government, not shady joe’s fix-it shop, and thus likely thought the issue would be resolved long term.
Plus I’m guessing she was on a defined benefit pension, creating an incentive to stay.
Plus I’m guessing she was on a defined benefit pension, creating an incentive to stay.
Also, she was still being billed taxes after 3 years after being axed... for pay she never received!
I’d imagine it’s harder to come by jobs out there, and she had a reasonable belief that the gov would eventually pay her.
Jobs, especially these kinds of jobs, are scarce in Newfoundland.
I'm sure if she had options for other employment, she would have taken them. Even when working for CRA, she was only a seasonal contractor.
I'm sure if she had options for other employment, she would have taken them. Even when working for CRA, she was only a seasonal contractor.
She stayed probably for the lack of other opportunities and the hope the government would get their crap together.
So the tax collector also screws over their own employees and not just taxpayers? Welcome to the club, I guess.