Americans will soon be able to renew passports online(cntraveler.com)
cntraveler.com
Americans will soon be able to renew passports online
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/americans-will-soon-be-able-to-renew-passports-online
204 comments
A not insignificant portion of our population buys into the myth that government is fundamentally incapable of providing timely and cost-effective services like this. As a result, there is little motivation to fix or improve these processes and instead we end up squabbling over whether to eliminate or privatize them. This turns the myth into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In the US, the only time the average person interacts with the government (that they notice, so not like roads an air traffic control) is filing taxes and going to the DMV which are both terrible experiences in the US. This shapes everyone's view of what the government is capable of.
I think you are oversimplifying things. People interact with government services when using water at home. They interact with government services through the local k-12 school system; through the Post Office; and they know roads are largely funded with taxes. People interact with government far more than as you describe and attributing a general attitude about government to the two things you mentioned does not seem reasonable to me. Do you have good reasons for the belief you have other than a general perception? It’s ok if not and there’s nothing wrong with holding a pet theory without studies to back it up.
> People interact with government far more than as you describe and attributing a general attitude about government to the two things you mentioned does not seem reasonable to me.
Welcome to US politics.
Welcome to US politics.
Not with a government office or employee that is not part of utilities though.
The know the roads are but because it is a physical infrastructure they don't pay attention.
Look at the Post Office issues recently, from your comment.
The know the roads are but because it is a physical infrastructure they don't pay attention.
Look at the Post Office issues recently, from your comment.
If this were on almost any other thread, especially one focusing on the particular topic, the K-12 system would be shit on too along with the roads and post office. The only one of those that arguably reliably beats private services with similar level of funding would be water utilities, and that's partially because water rights in the Western US are a legal quagmire.
You missed the point that was made. The point wasn’t that government is efficient or good but that the experiences with the IRS and DMV don’t account for the sentiment toward government services in the country. The person I responded made a claim that interactions with these two services explain the attitudes people have toward government. I think that is an overly simplistic explanation.
I think you're probably correct. I've had better experience with the IRS and DMV than I have had with most the rest of the government.
I've used non-terrible DMV in two states. The key is to not underfund them so that offices are sporadically available and serving an excessively large population.
What states?
When I went to the CA DMV to get my real id, the person helping me was very pleasant and nice. I told her this was in remarkable contrast to my usual DMV experience, and she told me “we’re the new generation.”
When I went to the CA DMV to get my real id, the person helping me was very pleasant and nice. I told her this was in remarkable contrast to my usual DMV experience, and she told me “we’re the new generation.”
I've never had a problem with the Michigan Secretary of State (which handles DMV stuff here).
There's probably some locations that are chronically busy, but I've had the luck to not use them.
There's probably some locations that are chronically busy, but I've had the luck to not use them.
Also, some of these improvements would take an initial investment that would pay off over time (and possibly lower running costs over time) but that doesn't mesh well with the "lower my taxes/starve the beast" crowd.
The problem is rarely lack of funding but rather a complete lack of work ethic.
I’ve known people that have worked at the DMV on a temporary basis and they would get in trouble every time they got work done because they made regular people look bad.
The idea is is that if you can not fire a person, department, agency or whatever but you’re forced to use them than the end result will often be bad.
Basically the exact same reasons that most people hate HOAs.
I’ve known people that have worked at the DMV on a temporary basis and they would get in trouble every time they got work done because they made regular people look bad.
The idea is is that if you can not fire a person, department, agency or whatever but you’re forced to use them than the end result will often be bad.
Basically the exact same reasons that most people hate HOAs.
I’ve worked in government for over 20 years and have never encountered anyone getting mad because someone worked too hard. I’ve heard people say what you are saying but have never had it backed up with stronger evidence than you have provided. It’s simply not believable and comes across as an urban legend to me.
Deliberately starving public services so that they get shitty enough to consider eliminating or privatizing them has been going on since at least the Reagan years. Probably longer, but that’s when one of his advisors said the infamous line about wanting a government “small enough to drown in a bathtub”.
The federal beast is being starved so badly that it's consuming 4x the fraction of non-wartime GDP that it was 100 years ago (oh yes, except the blip during participation in a WORLD WAR). It's the kind of starvation only obese America can understand.
https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/outlays-GDP....
https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/outlays-GDP....
From what I understand the UK is pursuing a similar approach from Thatcher era onwards, they only seem to be slow with it.
Reagan did more than starve public services. There was an entire cultural moment during that presidency that made working in government low status. It's unsurprising that smart, competent people did not venture into government service, and basic things like "renew my ID/passport" are Kafkaesque endeavors as a result.
It’s become popular to blame things on Raegan, but it’s been 40 years. Come on. My passport renewal this decade was simple. And if you have an emergency it’s not Kafkaesque. See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32609897
>>A not insignificant portion of our population buys into the myth that government is fundamentally incapable of providing timely and cost-effective services like this.
but in this case, they are not 'providing timely and cost-effective services', so is it really a myth?
but in this case, they are not 'providing timely and cost-effective services', so is it really a myth?
I assume the myth being that will never be able to provide 'timely and cost-effective services', not that they currently aren't.
If the belief is that there is no way that the government could ever provide good services, then the only solution seems to be to get rid of them and have someone else provide good services. The challenge I see with this solution is that private service providers have a very very strong incentive to get people to believe that this is the only solution: it's hard to compete with an effective monopoly.
If the belief is that they could provide good services, then we might see that maybe they don't provide good services for a number of reasons and try to improve them as well.
If the belief is that there is no way that the government could ever provide good services, then the only solution seems to be to get rid of them and have someone else provide good services. The challenge I see with this solution is that private service providers have a very very strong incentive to get people to believe that this is the only solution: it's hard to compete with an effective monopoly.
If the belief is that they could provide good services, then we might see that maybe they don't provide good services for a number of reasons and try to improve them as well.
It could also be that one party WANTS to provide good services while the other party is bought by the private industry and thus never wants government services to be good.
EXAMPLE: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/02/biden-cannot-fir...
EXAMPLE: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/02/biden-cannot-fir...
I agree but maybe could have said it differently:
> The challenge I see with this solution is that private service providers have a very very strong incentive to get people to believe that this is the only solution: it's hard to compete with an effective monopoly.
> The challenge I see with this solution is that private service providers have a very very strong incentive to get people to believe that this is the only solution: it's hard to compete with an effective monopoly.
The myth is that governments are "fundamentally incapable." That they're not in this particular case doesn't speak to the larger issue.
One political party has been devoted to handicapping government functions at every possible point for at least 40 years, and still some parts of the government continue to function well, so well that people don't even notice or think about them.
People notice the IRS--underfunded on purpose, and with intense lobbying to ensure it is illegal to provide a higher quality of service--and the DMV--underfunded in most states--but not anything else that works cost-effectively, like public schools or the USPS.
One political party has been devoted to handicapping government functions at every possible point for at least 40 years, and still some parts of the government continue to function well, so well that people don't even notice or think about them.
People notice the IRS--underfunded on purpose, and with intense lobbying to ensure it is illegal to provide a higher quality of service--and the DMV--underfunded in most states--but not anything else that works cost-effectively, like public schools or the USPS.
When you have evidence that some governments are timely and cost-effective, then it's a myth that governments are fundamentally incapable.
How is it a myth? Yes I was able to get my passport in a day, in person, after paying a bunch of money
But most things take forever. Can it be done in a timely manner? Perhaps, but the government hasn't shown much evidence that it is capable
They know the truth. It can be competent if the citizenry good it accountable to being competent. The myth is that the disinterested citizen isn't responsible, and it's socially acceptable to shift the blame away from themselves.
From the USA it was faster (1 week), cheaper, and easier (all online, all digital, no mailing anything in) to renew my New Zealand passport, than it was to renew the US passport for the little one.
We were left with the impression that the USA just doesn’t care about improving these things. So it’s nice to see that the improvements are coming, they just took a while.
We were left with the impression that the USA just doesn’t care about improving these things. So it’s nice to see that the improvements are coming, they just took a while.
> We were left with the impression that the USA just doesn’t care about improving these things.
The anti-statism in the US turns readily into "if you interact with the state, it should be a miserable underfunded experience" rather than "since it has to happen, we're going to make it easy and convenient so as not to consume too much time, money and energy from our citizens"
(unless a libertarian wants to argue that the US should simply not issue passports at all and .. leave it up to private enterprise somehow?)
The anti-statism in the US turns readily into "if you interact with the state, it should be a miserable underfunded experience" rather than "since it has to happen, we're going to make it easy and convenient so as not to consume too much time, money and energy from our citizens"
(unless a libertarian wants to argue that the US should simply not issue passports at all and .. leave it up to private enterprise somehow?)
It’s high up in the chain and miserable is a side effect of underfunded. I spent some time working at the CA dmv headquarters and can honestly say it’s actually kind of crazy how small the crew is that gets to decide how every other dmv in the state is run. They are running on a pretty tight budget (we had to fund our own drinking water and coffee) and they are definitely not trendsetters. These are people that have spent decades working in low paid government jobs and aren’t interested in risking much of anything. They have little resources, are not on the bleeding edge of anything, they know what works and mostly stick to that.
As an intern that knew my way around mail merges, outlook, and excel macros (around 2010), their minds were blown. But also they patted me on the head, gave me a phone, and asked me to physically call every DMV office in CA to ask them how many physical manuals they needed shipped to their office
As an intern that knew my way around mail merges, outlook, and excel macros (around 2010), their minds were blown. But also they patted me on the head, gave me a phone, and asked me to physically call every DMV office in CA to ask them how many physical manuals they needed shipped to their office
"Subscribe to MegaCorp Brand Passport today! Featuring access to 52 tourist destination and monthly bonus locations!"
Ugh. That sounds so horrible it could actually happen.
I shudder thinking of how it would be if passport issuance was handed over to the highest private bidder.
Intuit already disgusts me with the tax shenanigans, can't imagine passports...
Intuit already disgusts me with the tax shenanigans, can't imagine passports...
I wondered about this and found the awesome https://discover.passportindex.org/security/who-prints-your-... - the US seems to be unusual in not contracting it out to De La Rue (who also do banknotes) or Gemalto (subsidiary of Thales).
The bureau of consular affairs is funded by passport fees most of the time. They started losing a billion plus per year during COVID. This isn’t necessarily a problem of anti-statism as much of resources.
Nobody wants their passport fees to triple and it wouldn’t be fair. There also isn’t always an incentive to make things more efficient in the short term, so it’s not quite as simple in this case.
Nobody wants their passport fees to triple and it wouldn’t be fair. There also isn’t always an incentive to make things more efficient in the short term, so it’s not quite as simple in this case.
Resources are constrained only because of policies that say government services need to be self-funded to a greater extent than makes sense, even when this creates inefficiencies or perverse incentives (speed traps, asset forfeiture). Even if it's not intentionally anti-statist, the effect of undermining people's belief that the government can do anything useful or effective is the same.
> "(unless a libertarian wants to argue that the US should simply not issue passports at all and .. leave it up to private enterprise somehow?) "
I won't take you up on your offer, but I'd recommend for us all to take this concept of a passport and peel it back to it's core and constituent parts. Then be a bit honest and see how we feel about the freedom we supposedly have to roam this Earth free from tyranny and fear.
I won't take you up on your offer, but I'd recommend for us all to take this concept of a passport and peel it back to it's core and constituent parts. Then be a bit honest and see how we feel about the freedom we supposedly have to roam this Earth free from tyranny and fear.
My impression as an immigrant is that Americans are great when working in private organizations. Effective, helpful and friendly.
But give them a government job enforcing anything, and they become the polar opposite somehow.
There may be a little of that in my home country, but nowhere near this extreme.
> So it’s nice to see that the improvements are coming, they just took a while.
This is one single improvement, long overdue. I wouldn't extrapolate to anything else.
But give them a government job enforcing anything, and they become the polar opposite somehow.
There may be a little of that in my home country, but nowhere near this extreme.
> So it’s nice to see that the improvements are coming, they just took a while.
This is one single improvement, long overdue. I wouldn't extrapolate to anything else.
>We were left with the impression that the USA just doesn’t care about improving these things.
I don't think our politicians actually care. They prefer to fight culture wars and pay lip service to real issues.
I don't think our politicians actually care. They prefer to fight culture wars and pay lip service to real issues.
I think "little one" = your child and not a passport card? If so, minors can't renew the way adults can and must meet with an agent - similar to an adult getting a new passport. Idk how these standards are set, but unless something changes, renewing online will likely be limited to adults.
Agree with your sentiments about the current process and hopes for improvement.
Agree with your sentiments about the current process and hopes for improvement.
That and for some crazy reason my son who has had a passport since he was six months old, has to apply for his first adult passport as a brand new applicant. He has never had a lapse in holding a valid passport but since he's is now 18 he's a new person apparently.
What bugs be is the common impression that "USA" is this or that or "USA wants" this or that.
USA is (more or less) a democracy so which party is in power at the time determines what "USA wants".
USA is (more or less) a democracy so which party is in power at the time determines what "USA wants".
Unfortunately the political dynamic in the US ensures that most federal government services will remain in shambles.
On one side there is a party that actively believes that "government is the problem", and does its best to prove that by deliberately kneecapping government agencies. Just look at the recent debate over the IRS. I mean, I don't like being taxed anymore than anyone else, but I think a professional, competent IRS is a clear necessity for funding the federal government.
On the other side there is a fear of getting branded "socialist", or just proposing things that will never come to pass, so what we are often left with is these Frankenstein "private-public" partnerships that are usually the worst of all possible worlds. E.g. you have the case where student loans are made by private institutions (or at least non-federal ones), but then then federal government guarantees them. So what we've built up is an incentive structure that makes college as expensive as possible, as student debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and even if it is discharged by the feds, it is the feds who are left holding the bag. Lenders and colleges are just incentivized to charge as much as possible because they are made whole no matter what.
On one side there is a party that actively believes that "government is the problem", and does its best to prove that by deliberately kneecapping government agencies. Just look at the recent debate over the IRS. I mean, I don't like being taxed anymore than anyone else, but I think a professional, competent IRS is a clear necessity for funding the federal government.
On the other side there is a fear of getting branded "socialist", or just proposing things that will never come to pass, so what we are often left with is these Frankenstein "private-public" partnerships that are usually the worst of all possible worlds. E.g. you have the case where student loans are made by private institutions (or at least non-federal ones), but then then federal government guarantees them. So what we've built up is an incentive structure that makes college as expensive as possible, as student debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and even if it is discharged by the feds, it is the feds who are left holding the bag. Lenders and colleges are just incentivized to charge as much as possible because they are made whole no matter what.
The government has more then enough money for essential services. That it wastes it elsewhere is it’s own problem.
Any new money will get spent on something flashy that will buy votes.
Any new money will get spent on something flashy that will buy votes.
Passport services and the Bureau of Consular Affairs are normally funded out of fees, so agreed funding politically is less of an issue, FWIW.
I do think it's worth noting for kids in the US there is no "renewal." Each time it's considered a new application.
Me too - the estimate was 11 weeks, but start to finish the whole process took three, and I was able to take my own passport photo at home. A pleasant surprise!
My friend renewed US passport overseas at a consulate last month.
Had new passport in hand one week later. Regular service.
They can be fast if they want to.
Had new passport in hand one week later. Regular service.
They can be fast if they want to.
[deleted]
Isn't the both parents required to be there to stop kidnapping and other issues?
I think passports are seen as a normal thing to have in other countries. In the US, the government seems to consider it a thing you only apply for if you have specific plans to travel soon.
Other countries might require presence or a signed affidavit from both parents when the child is actually flying out of the country.
Other countries might require presence or a signed affidavit from both parents when the child is actually flying out of the country.
Yes, and parental kidnapping is a real issue that happens fairly frequently. This is a reasonable policy - it might not be in a smaller country but if you're in Missouri and getting a passport for a kid, you are going a long distance no matter what.
Things have changed a lot.
My half sister got kidnapped constantly by parents.
My mom had custody but her bio dad and his wife kept kidnapping her and taking her across state lines.
At one point the dad was at the airport with a shotgun waiting for them. Police had to sneak my parents onto a plane.
Eventually my mom just walked with for several years at school never letting her out of her sight. That stopped at least one attempt, maybe more.
My mom had custody but her bio dad and his wife kept kidnapping her and taking her across state lines.
At one point the dad was at the airport with a shotgun waiting for them. Police had to sneak my parents onto a plane.
Eventually my mom just walked with for several years at school never letting her out of her sight. That stopped at least one attempt, maybe more.
Yeah but it's a retarded rule. The other parent can sail the kid into international waters and back without a passport, this prevents nothing. If someone's willing to kidnap a child this does absolutely nothing to stop them, except make sure any international border crossing is done in the most dangerous ways possible.
Additional barriers might not stop all issues, but heavily reduce them.
Do you have evidence this heavily reduces kidnappings? The biggest change I see here is kidnapping that cross borders are now guaranteed to go through uncontrolled crossing rather than ports of entry, endangering these children more than had they been kidnapped with a passport.
My wife is a Mexican citizen. Last time she needed to renew her passport, she went to the consulate and came home with a new passport the same day. It seemed like some sort of black magic to me.
I pray that Mexico gets the situation around corruption and cartels under control. It's such a beautiful culture, nation, and Mexicans are lovely people.
I doubt they can manage that while they border the US.
The US has interests in maintaining the status quo to keep the cheap labour flowing, gun exports, and drugs to maintain the social hierarchy.
If mexico managed to get rid a of a cartel member, the CIA would start working on making a new one
The US has interests in maintaining the status quo to keep the cheap labour flowing, gun exports, and drugs to maintain the social hierarchy.
If mexico managed to get rid a of a cartel member, the CIA would start working on making a new one
Won't happen until US ends prohibition.
All the bus services I know of at least have GPS in their respective apps now.
Doesn't solve the issue but you can see how long it'll take and impress old people by knowing where the bus is :)
Doesn't solve the issue but you can see how long it'll take and impress old people by knowing where the bus is :)
Have you encountered US busses that come on time?
Only in cities with dedicated bus lanes. Otherwise the buses are stuck in the same traffic as the cars.
There are busses in the US ? Been here almost 20 years and car, car, car as far as the eye can see…
How can it takes only one week in a different country? Sounds weird, or maybe they're being printed in the US?
Many countries have passport blanks in every embassy. They're some of the most tightly controlled documents in the world given they could be used to print new, seemingly valid passports for anyone (if that country doesn't info share with the other, that is). No clue if they're being printed within the US in UK's situation, however.
https://www.dw.com/en/post-brexit-uk-passports-to-be-produce...
"The UK will roll out new "iconic" blue passports for a post-Brexit Britain in March — but they will be produced in Poland by a French-Dutch company."
(The UK "blue" is basically black, whereas US passports are actually blue)
"The UK will roll out new "iconic" blue passports for a post-Brexit Britain in March — but they will be produced in Poland by a French-Dutch company."
(The UK "blue" is basically black, whereas US passports are actually blue)
USA has black passports as well ;)
https://py.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/274/2017/0...
https://py.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/274/2017/0...
My US wife’s passport and my UK one are a pretty similar colour. I actually miss the burgundy of the old UK one.
They are produced in the UK. There's something like a £10 fee for the delivery abroad, and it's sent with a typical fast service like FedEx.
They’re not printed in the US, but it’s totally possible to courier something from Europe to the US in 24 hours, maybe 48.
Yep, even from here in Finland regular UPS/DHL express services are normally 1 or 2 days to US (e.g. UPS Express Saver is 1 day to ~NY and 2 days elsewhere).
Though even postal items can arrive in a week as well, with luck.
Though even postal items can arrive in a week as well, with luck.
Same day printing and DHL express would makes 1 week easily achievable.
What about the time needed to validate documents like birth certificates, etc?
If it's a renewal, presumably those documents have already been validated. One would need to validate the old passport being sent in but that should be it.
Delivered, accepted, sent for printing, and posted by courier from the UK, all with text messages to keep me informed of progress.
Mine was printed in another country and shipped 7200 miles to me in under a week for a $18 delivery fee.
Things are improving in the US. Energy.gov just released the IT Scaling playbook for Govt digital services
Yeah same here when I renewed my kids' UK passports from CA. It took a week, all online/mail.
It’s amazing how much easier things are when you’re at 20% the scale of a larger operation.
Don't things normally get more efficient with scale?
Do you consider large organizations more or less efficient than smaller ones?
With something complex like passports? That's the kind of thing that scales up. A small country that doesn't produce many passports, and doesn't have many complicated cases, doesn't need to be able to manage them very well. Something with more people going through the system is more robust and better tested and has the corner cases worked out.
For example if you do 1 passport a day you can't have a dedicated person handling for example issues caused by dual nationalities. If you do 1000 a day you can have someone who just handles that and knows exactly how to do it.
A tech example would be that Google knows exactly how to get a worker a visa as they do it all the time and they're very efficient at it. A little startup might have no idea what they're doing and would be very inefficient at it.
For example if you do 1 passport a day you can't have a dedicated person handling for example issues caused by dual nationalities. If you do 1000 a day you can have someone who just handles that and knows exactly how to do it.
A tech example would be that Google knows exactly how to get a worker a visa as they do it all the time and they're very efficient at it. A little startup might have no idea what they're doing and would be very inefficient at it.
Sure, but imagine if Google was really good at something that was inefficient, like 8-11 week passport generation using old techniques and then try to change it?
The larger the org the harder it is to change in big ways (at least in my experience)
The larger the org the harder it is to change in big ways (at least in my experience)
Most of the time, large organizations are much, much, MUCH more efficient.
Even with organizational overhead.
Which is more efficient: Distributing thousands of books by pallet in large, predictable quantities of pallets, to a limited number of Amazon warehouses or sending a single box of 20 books to thousands of bookstores?
Even with organizational overhead.
Which is more efficient: Distributing thousands of books by pallet in large, predictable quantities of pallets, to a limited number of Amazon warehouses or sending a single box of 20 books to thousands of bookstores?
That's a very shitty excuse. Those things can scale, and get more efficient with scale, especially when you have multiple times the revenue too.
You can also renew your US passport online provided it hasn’t expired. Not sure what the delivery window is.
[deleted]
No, you can't. This article is literally about how they're going to roll out online renewals for US passports in a few months.
Maybe I was mistaken. I just looked into this a month ago and I thought you could submit everything electronically except for the old passport itself.
You can fill out the PDF on your PC and print it out, but it still needs to be mailed in.
[deleted]
For anyone not reading the article, if you have a non-expired passport, you can already do everything online. Except! You need to mail in your current passport.
There are also expedited processing options. The ones I saw last year weren't terribly expensive.
Edit: Fastest is 3 days, if you have emergency that qualifies. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/get-fas...
There are also expedited processing options. The ones I saw last year weren't terribly expensive.
Edit: Fastest is 3 days, if you have emergency that qualifies. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/get-fas...
For my qualifying emergency I called the duty officer, explained the situation, selected a 9am appointment, spent not even 10 minutes in the passport office and was told to come back to pick it up at 2pm. Walked in and was handed an envelope in less than a minute. Most pleasant government experience, by far — it just doesn’t scale.
Where are you seeing the ability to do it online? You can't as far as I can tell (I just did it).
> "Currently, the process requires filling out a renewal application called DS-82, providing a passport-sized photo, and calculating fees, plus tossing the current passport and potentially other identification papers in the mail. “It’s scary to mail in your [old] passport, marriage certificate, and other documents and hope you’ll get them back,” Rathner says."
You need to print the forms, staple a proper photo to them, and mail all your crap via USPS. The only thing you can do online is print the form (you can fill in the data first, but that's not the hard part).
When I hear "you can already do everything online" I think click submit and be done. You can't currently do that. It's barely a step above picking up the forms at USPS (where you have to go anyway).
> "Currently, the process requires filling out a renewal application called DS-82, providing a passport-sized photo, and calculating fees, plus tossing the current passport and potentially other identification papers in the mail. “It’s scary to mail in your [old] passport, marriage certificate, and other documents and hope you’ll get them back,” Rathner says."
You need to print the forms, staple a proper photo to them, and mail all your crap via USPS. The only thing you can do online is print the form (you can fill in the data first, but that's not the hard part).
When I hear "you can already do everything online" I think click submit and be done. You can't currently do that. It's barely a step above picking up the forms at USPS (where you have to go anyway).
There was a beta website that let you do the most straightfoward sorts of renewals online (renewing a "normal" passport and having it shipped to the US).
Yeah that's what the article mentions, but sounds like that's not available to most of the public (and the comment I replied to seemed to not be talking about that?)
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/have-pa...
In the right sidebar:
In the right sidebar:
Passport Forms
DS-82: Renewal Application
Fill Out Online
Yeah - I'm pretty sure that's what I did.
It has you fill out the forms electronically, but all that does is put the text into the field which you then have to print, staple your photo to, and mail.
You can't submit anything online.
It has you fill out the forms electronically, but all that does is put the text into the field which you then have to print, staple your photo to, and mail.
You can't submit anything online.
That's interesting, the OP was I guess not quite right on this.
Not having to mail in your current passport is huge though. I hate being without a passport for the 2-3 months it currently takes, even if I have no travel planned (and what if I did?).
Not having to mail in your current passport is huge though. I hate being without a passport for the 2-3 months it currently takes, even if I have no travel planned (and what if I did?).
There were a lot of major delays during the pandemic. Otherwise, you can get a new passport very quickly but you might want to pay a visa/passport service to handle it for you--although I'm not sure they add a lot of value these days.
I think last time I renewed was pre-pandemic, but post-Trump, which I don't recall what that had to do with it, but do recall that passport renewals were already seriously slowed down -- I think I had to wait about 6 weeks.
I don't know for sure what it was before that, since the last time I renewed was 10 years before that.
But being without a passport for even 2 weeks makes me nervous. It's a security blanket to know I have it to make last-minute international travel possible if necessary.
An online renewal where you don't have to send your old passport in and can keep it until your new arrives is a huge thing. (Granted, your old passport will probably become invalid at some point before you receive your new passport, but after it's actually been created. Still the time without a valid passport will be minimal).
I don't know for sure what it was before that, since the last time I renewed was 10 years before that.
But being without a passport for even 2 weeks makes me nervous. It's a security blanket to know I have it to make last-minute international travel possible if necessary.
An online renewal where you don't have to send your old passport in and can keep it until your new arrives is a huge thing. (Granted, your old passport will probably become invalid at some point before you receive your new passport, but after it's actually been created. Still the time without a valid passport will be minimal).
You can get same day passport at a State Department office. Even without an appointment, if you’re willing to risk not being seen that day.
Did that recently change? I had to renew my passport at the office this year and it was very strictly by appointment only.
They don’t want you to know but I recently did a same day renewal at Seattle and like Chicago and SF’s offices, there is a line for people without appointments. I’d say I saw 60 people go to that one and maybe half got helped - if that’s helpful info.
If by "do everything online" you mean print out a few forms and go do it in person, then yep you can do it online!
My passport was expired in 2019, and I had a trip to Germany, meaning I had to renew it.
I was actually amazed how efficient the system for passports was. I mailed in my old passport and a new photo, and in less than a week I had a brand new passport arrive in the mail. The process was actually pleasantly painless for me.
I was actually amazed how efficient the system for passports was. I mailed in my old passport and a new photo, and in less than a week I had a brand new passport arrive in the mail. The process was actually pleasantly painless for me.
I've heard of people with appointments at 8AM and a passport being delivered to their door by 10AM in emergency situations. Not hard to contact your congressperson to get this done. They love this as it involves almost no effort and is great PR.
You just have book an appointment and get to a consulate. We were going overseas with some friends and a few nights before, one of the people realized their passport was so close to expiring they were likely to be denied entry (many times countries will not let you in if your passport could expire while you're there). They booked an emergency appt. in ATL, drove the 6ish hours, then got their flights changed to leave from ATL. They got it same day if I remember correctly, and flew out that night or the next morning.
Yup, my dad was able to arrange this once.
[deleted]
This is part of the White House’s executive order on improving digital service delivery.
> Sec. 4. Agency Actions to Improve Customer Experience. (a) The Secretary of State shall design and deliver a new online passport renewal experience that does not require any physical documents to be mailed.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action...
> Sec. 4. Agency Actions to Improve Customer Experience. (a) The Secretary of State shall design and deliver a new online passport renewal experience that does not require any physical documents to be mailed.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action...
Between this and open access to federally funded research it seems like we may be in for a slew of common sense executive orders ahead of the midterms. Some minor bug fixes for the federal government, if you will.
Governments under threat of competition produce positive results.
That explains a lot about California
We just have a sensible executive that makes lives easier.
Common sense for sure, but def not 1-3 story points. More like a decent product owner at the helm now, driving product in the appropriate direction.
It's nice not to have to provide external references to renew your passport. Canadian passport holders have to provide two references to renew their Canadian passport. I'm a birth citizen and have never lived anywhere else. And my reference couldn't be family members. As an introvert, it wasn't easy, but I managed to find two people.
The Canadian government should abolish the requirement to provide references to renew a passport. It's pointless and creates a burden for people who are not extroverts with dozens of friends.
The Canadian government should abolish the requirement to provide references to renew a passport. It's pointless and creates a burden for people who are not extroverts with dozens of friends.
I can understand referrals for new passport, but for renewing that is just strange...
Yeah - this is was(?) a silly rule. I just looked it up though and it looks like this has changed? Not sure when this happened.
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
The requirements is still there: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
I believe that link is for applying for a new passport - it looks like the process has been updated for renewal.
Wow that is a really stupid rule I wonder what they are trying to accomplish with that. More unnecessary government crap.
It gives them more data to work with because they can background check your references. And plenty of people will pick someone who won't vouch for them.
Why is a background check that includes references needed for a passport? Its not the governments job to determine if you are a likable person and i hope they don’t rely on those likely very shallow checks to determine anything.
[deleted]
Tons of fraud is why.
[deleted]
How does this reduce fraud?
Validating identity. Canadian passport security was crap and there were several high profile cases (e.g. Millennium bomber) of them being used for terrorist activities.
Your photos also need to have the name of the studio stamped and signed in the back.
Government suspects fraud? Call the references (they are generally licensed professions). Suspect the photo? Call the studio or send someone down.
It’s just traceability for the key claims in the application and biometric data.
Your photos also need to have the name of the studio stamped and signed in the back.
Government suspects fraud? Call the references (they are generally licensed professions). Suspect the photo? Call the studio or send someone down.
It’s just traceability for the key claims in the application and biometric data.
That makes much more sense to me. Thanks for explaining.
That is strange for renewals, but also- is there anything specific they are able to vouch for you? Like your place of birth, current residence and workplace, things like that? Or is it simply someone you know?
Near the end of last year, I had to renew my passport that had expired. I had to travel and was in a sweet spot window where I couldn't renew it and get it in time and I couldn't just go to a passport office and get one.
I ended up having to drive to El Paso, which was the only passport office that was open in the entire United States! I had to wait until a few days before my flight. There were people from all over staying in a hotel waiting for their passport. They had standby flights to leave once they got it. I met people from California, Arizona, Michigan, New York, and Florida. It was totally ridiculous.
I ended up having to drive to El Paso, which was the only passport office that was open in the entire United States! I had to wait until a few days before my flight. There were people from all over staying in a hotel waiting for their passport. They had standby flights to leave once they got it. I met people from California, Arizona, Michigan, New York, and Florida. It was totally ridiculous.
Last year wasn't exactly typical. (I haven't needed it but I was very glad I renewed my passport pre-pandemic given that it was nearly out of pages even though it had a few years left.)
Next make the fees non-extortionate.
My kid's Irish passport costs €25 to renew. Her US passport is €130.
We wouldn't even bother with the US one except that it's illegal for her to enter the US on anything but a US passport. If we showed up with her Consular Report of Birth Abroad (which proves her US citizenship) could they legally refuse her entry to the US? I don't know.
But €130 to enter a country of which you're a citizen is annoying.
My kid's Irish passport costs €25 to renew. Her US passport is €130.
We wouldn't even bother with the US one except that it's illegal for her to enter the US on anything but a US passport. If we showed up with her Consular Report of Birth Abroad (which proves her US citizenship) could they legally refuse her entry to the US? I don't know.
But €130 to enter a country of which you're a citizen is annoying.
> illegal for her to enter the US on anything but a US passport
From what I recall reading on the internet (don't blame me if it's wrong), it's "illegal" but there's no actual penalty on the books. Apparently they scold you and give you a hard time, but let you pass through, since citizens are required to be allowed entry. (And I mean, consider what if you lost your passport during your trip?) I don't personally know anyone who's actually tried this so I have no idea how true it is in reality.
From what I recall reading on the internet (don't blame me if it's wrong), it's "illegal" but there's no actual penalty on the books. Apparently they scold you and give you a hard time, but let you pass through, since citizens are required to be allowed entry. (And I mean, consider what if you lost your passport during your trip?) I don't personally know anyone who's actually tried this so I have no idea how true it is in reality.
How would you board your aircraft without a valid travel document? The air carriers won't let you.
> How would you board your aircraft without a valid travel document?
You lose your passport after boarding, or bring a certificate of naturalization, birth certificate, etc. that proves your citizenship. Or in the parent's case, try with the "Consular Report of Birth Abroad". I have no idea if the US accepts that, but it seems to me it should, since it proves citizenship which implies that person can't be denied entry.
You lose your passport after boarding, or bring a certificate of naturalization, birth certificate, etc. that proves your citizenship. Or in the parent's case, try with the "Consular Report of Birth Abroad". I have no idea if the US accepts that, but it seems to me it should, since it proves citizenship which implies that person can't be denied entry.
> You lose your passport after boarding
The problem being discussed is the price of US passports, not trying to figure out how to enter the US without a passport that you've paid for.
The problem being discussed is the price of US passports, not trying to figure out how to enter the US without a passport that you've paid for.
Yes, hence the rest of that comment. Those 6 words were just giving yet another example for the general case, which they would need to have a process for handling.
There are several modes of transport besides commercial aircraft that reach the border of the US.
Wouldn't surprise me if "look at me I'm white and speak with American south accent" might have gotten a charismatic enough individual on a plane to the US at some point after not having a passport for whatever reason, on some unscrupulous airline.
Edit: per below, unscrupulous was a poor word choice. I should have used a whatever word means "imposing low level of scrutiny."
Wouldn't surprise me if "look at me I'm white and speak with American south accent" might have gotten a charismatic enough individual on a plane to the US at some point after not having a passport for whatever reason, on some unscrupulous airline.
Edit: per below, unscrupulous was a poor word choice. I should have used a whatever word means "imposing low level of scrutiny."
> unscrupulous airline.
I'm unsure about this, but from what I've gathered, airlines can bring people to the border without verifying travel documents. The only caveat is they have to be willing to transport that person back if they're not admitted. And IIRC this can happen even if that person has a visa etc., since not every valid entry document guarantees admission, so it's not like carriers would know the admission result prior to the passenger's boarding anyway.
Assuming the above is correct, what this implies to me is that—if an airline was willing to (say) take a deposit or something from a passenger to cover their cost of return, or if they were willing to (for whatever reason) foot the bill themselves—then they could totally let a passenger without valid documentation on board. The only thing that stands in their way of doing this would be their internal corporate policies, really. Unless there's an actual law implying otherwise that I'm unaware of, which is possible.
I'm unsure about this, but from what I've gathered, airlines can bring people to the border without verifying travel documents. The only caveat is they have to be willing to transport that person back if they're not admitted. And IIRC this can happen even if that person has a visa etc., since not every valid entry document guarantees admission, so it's not like carriers would know the admission result prior to the passenger's boarding anyway.
Assuming the above is correct, what this implies to me is that—if an airline was willing to (say) take a deposit or something from a passenger to cover their cost of return, or if they were willing to (for whatever reason) foot the bill themselves—then they could totally let a passenger without valid documentation on board. The only thing that stands in their way of doing this would be their internal corporate policies, really. Unless there's an actual law implying otherwise that I'm unaware of, which is possible.
You could board with your other passport (this is for a dual citizen) - though in that case you'd need to have an ESTA, which is annoying.
> it's "illegal" but there's no actual penalty on the books.
Actually, there is. They can deny you entry, which means you get put on the next flight back.
Not sure if that qualifies as "penalty" in you mind or not, but if we start getting pendantic, "illegal" is not always "criminal", i.e. does not universally imply crime.
Actually, there is. They can deny you entry, which means you get put on the next flight back.
Not sure if that qualifies as "penalty" in you mind or not, but if we start getting pendantic, "illegal" is not always "criminal", i.e. does not universally imply crime.
The government must allow American citizens back onto US soil, even without documentation. They're not happy about it and will make you answer a ton of questions, but I've seen it happen a few times.
I've personally been verbally reprimanded that I would not be allowed to enter the united states, by a sworn CBP officer, while at the border with a valid US passport in my name. Yes I was eventually allowed in, but CBP officers genuinely thought they could keep a US citizen out of the country. I'm sure there have been citizens denied. Keep in mind CBP is something like the lowest ranked federal LEO agency to work for.
> They can deny you entry
(a) They can't do that if you're a citizen; you have a right to enter regardless of whether you have a passport. Heck, there might not even be a place to return you to.
(b) That wouldn't be a "penalty" in the law regardless (and this has nothing to do with criminal vs. civil vs. "illegal" vs. whatever). That is, if you do prove your citizenship somehow, they cannot turn you back to penalize you for not having a passport—period.
The question is whether you can prove your identity (and thus citizenship) without a passport. There are lots of ways to do this, and it seems [1] that "A Certification of Report of Birth, issued to U.S. citizens who were born outside the U.S." is sufficient to prove citizenship in other cases, so it seems plausible that that's sufficient for entering the country too.
(I wouldn't be surprised if even a State ID would be sufficient for them to look up your citizenship info in practice, since they cannot deny you entry if they discover you're a citizen.)
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/435.407 (note that this section is NOT specifically for entering the US; I'm just providing it as an example of documents that adequately establish citizenship in other cases)
(a) They can't do that if you're a citizen; you have a right to enter regardless of whether you have a passport. Heck, there might not even be a place to return you to.
(b) That wouldn't be a "penalty" in the law regardless (and this has nothing to do with criminal vs. civil vs. "illegal" vs. whatever). That is, if you do prove your citizenship somehow, they cannot turn you back to penalize you for not having a passport—period.
The question is whether you can prove your identity (and thus citizenship) without a passport. There are lots of ways to do this, and it seems [1] that "A Certification of Report of Birth, issued to U.S. citizens who were born outside the U.S." is sufficient to prove citizenship in other cases, so it seems plausible that that's sufficient for entering the country too.
(I wouldn't be surprised if even a State ID would be sufficient for them to look up your citizenship info in practice, since they cannot deny you entry if they discover you're a citizen.)
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/435.407 (note that this section is NOT specifically for entering the US; I'm just providing it as an example of documents that adequately establish citizenship in other cases)
(a) happens regulay. Moreso to people with brown skin - theyll deport you to wherever and call it a day
Citation needed. I highly doubt they do that "regularly" after they've witnessed evidence of citizenship other than a passport.
Not regular but happened before https://immigrationimpact.com/2021/07/30/ice-deport-us-citiz...
No, your link is about a totally different situation. We were talking about frequent refusal of entry at the border (which would be by CBP, btw) after evidence of citizenship other than a passport has already been provided, based on brown skin color. You're linking to a few dozen deportations over 6 years, which occur to existing residents after they're in the country (which is performed by ICE). And on top of that it's not clear what evidence of citizenship (if any) they had provided prior to the arrests, though it's already a different situation anyway.
I was verbally refused entry (as in explicitly they said I would not be let into the country) at the border while presenting a crisp, authentic US passport that CBP accepted as my genuine passport. I am white, US born citizen appearing as middle class and from middle america. There was absolutely no mistake about my documents proving my citizenship, and no doubt whatsoever I was a US citizen. I was tossed into a holding cell with all brown people whom I could barely communicate with.
The CBP operates with virtual impunity at the border. It is illegal to record them, unlike basically any other officer in execution of his/her official duties. When I contacted immigration lawyers, I learned basically none of them are interested in bringing a suit against CBP for abuses, as it's an incredible long shot mission and hassle.
After several hours of interrogation, and waiting for what I believe is an HSI detective (DHS, but not CBP) I was finally allowed into the country, with a warning "we can cancel your passport." (LOL, CBP officers cannot do that) Interestingly that HSI detective found the whole thing totally uninteresting and I was sent on my way almost as fast as he got there.
On yet another occasion, CBP tossed me again in the holding area full of brown people, stuck a dog on me THAT DID NOT ALERT, and then wrote in their report that <I slightly paraphrase> "a dog sniffed his asshole and alerted" after which I was strip-searched (intimately), cuffed, chained booked, tossed in an actual imprisonment cell and then loaded up in a prisoner transport van and dragged through hospitals (multiple of them, until they could find one with a corrupt enough doctor) for 16 hours while nurses and doctors in on their scam treated me like I was some drug trafficker. The Assistant United States Attorney was notified and she and her ilk piled on the fuckery, signing off on a fraudulent warrant authorizing my "internal examination." When their investigation came up with nothing, they dumped me back at the border, without any apology and presumably without removing me from their shit-list, which plagues me every time I enter the country.
If you are on a certain "shit-list" of CBP, they will fuck with you to no end, and there is very little you can do about it. The constitution is "suspended" at the border and half-suspended anywhere 100 miles adjacent. I tried to explain I still have some rights as a citizen, and the CBP Officer said "well I'm about to show you my rights" before strip-searching me. Seriously, what are you going to do? You can't record their actions, and what you can get through FOIA is minimal. Their agents lie on the reports, so whatever they write is worth about as much as a piece of toilet paper. When I tell these stories most people laugh, ask me what I must have been doing wrong, or say it's all in the course of securing the border. Sadly things are not likely to change, and in fact only seem to be getting worse.
Have US citizens been denied entry? I don't know, I just know as a normal looking and sounding white guy American I myself have had a CBP officer try to deny me entry, and I can't imagine what it would be like if you're a US citizen who only speaks spanish and looks hella indigenous. Maybe then you're lucky enough to get in, only to be finger raped [0] at the direction of CBP officers on a warrantless fishing expedition for a cavity search. If I were a betting man people who were denied entry probably did the same thing I did, which is contact a lawyer and find out you have basically no options, deal with your reality in whatever way you can and then move on with your life.
[0] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985...
The CBP operates with virtual impunity at the border. It is illegal to record them, unlike basically any other officer in execution of his/her official duties. When I contacted immigration lawyers, I learned basically none of them are interested in bringing a suit against CBP for abuses, as it's an incredible long shot mission and hassle.
After several hours of interrogation, and waiting for what I believe is an HSI detective (DHS, but not CBP) I was finally allowed into the country, with a warning "we can cancel your passport." (LOL, CBP officers cannot do that) Interestingly that HSI detective found the whole thing totally uninteresting and I was sent on my way almost as fast as he got there.
On yet another occasion, CBP tossed me again in the holding area full of brown people, stuck a dog on me THAT DID NOT ALERT, and then wrote in their report that <I slightly paraphrase> "a dog sniffed his asshole and alerted" after which I was strip-searched (intimately), cuffed, chained booked, tossed in an actual imprisonment cell and then loaded up in a prisoner transport van and dragged through hospitals (multiple of them, until they could find one with a corrupt enough doctor) for 16 hours while nurses and doctors in on their scam treated me like I was some drug trafficker. The Assistant United States Attorney was notified and she and her ilk piled on the fuckery, signing off on a fraudulent warrant authorizing my "internal examination." When their investigation came up with nothing, they dumped me back at the border, without any apology and presumably without removing me from their shit-list, which plagues me every time I enter the country.
If you are on a certain "shit-list" of CBP, they will fuck with you to no end, and there is very little you can do about it. The constitution is "suspended" at the border and half-suspended anywhere 100 miles adjacent. I tried to explain I still have some rights as a citizen, and the CBP Officer said "well I'm about to show you my rights" before strip-searching me. Seriously, what are you going to do? You can't record their actions, and what you can get through FOIA is minimal. Their agents lie on the reports, so whatever they write is worth about as much as a piece of toilet paper. When I tell these stories most people laugh, ask me what I must have been doing wrong, or say it's all in the course of securing the border. Sadly things are not likely to change, and in fact only seem to be getting worse.
Have US citizens been denied entry? I don't know, I just know as a normal looking and sounding white guy American I myself have had a CBP officer try to deny me entry, and I can't imagine what it would be like if you're a US citizen who only speaks spanish and looks hella indigenous. Maybe then you're lucky enough to get in, only to be finger raped [0] at the direction of CBP officers on a warrantless fishing expedition for a cavity search. If I were a betting man people who were denied entry probably did the same thing I did, which is contact a lawyer and find out you have basically no options, deal with your reality in whatever way you can and then move on with your life.
[0] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.985...
> I was verbally refused entry (as in explicitly they said I would not be let into the country)
> I was finally allowed into the country
With regards to the discussion here, note that you weren't actually denied entry, regardless of how the officer may have phrased it to you verbally. Your permission to enter was withheld for some time and you were given a (very) hard time (as I mentioned can happen in my initial comment), but eventually allowed to go through. If you were actually denied entry, you would've been (say) placed on the next flight back, or left at the airport to figure your way out, or something like that—not taken in for interrogation and eventually let in.
(Obviously what they did to you sounds horrible; I'm not questioning that here. I'm just clarifying that, for the sake of the original discussion and the OP, this this was not a denial of entry, and is of course also unrelated to lack a passport.)
> I was finally allowed into the country
With regards to the discussion here, note that you weren't actually denied entry, regardless of how the officer may have phrased it to you verbally. Your permission to enter was withheld for some time and you were given a (very) hard time (as I mentioned can happen in my initial comment), but eventually allowed to go through. If you were actually denied entry, you would've been (say) placed on the next flight back, or left at the airport to figure your way out, or something like that—not taken in for interrogation and eventually let in.
(Obviously what they did to you sounds horrible; I'm not questioning that here. I'm just clarifying that, for the sake of the original discussion and the OP, this this was not a denial of entry, and is of course also unrelated to lack a passport.)
True it was a long-run entry but short-run denial. Although I would call being refused entry for the express reason of denial, followed by a reversal of the decision as a denial + a delay + an acceptance in the country. A right delayed is a right denied and all that, especially if it was delayed for the express purpose of indefinite denial.
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$13/year doesn’t seem outrageous. Anyway, it’s either funded by fee or by taxes; I’m not sure I care a lot about how I pay. Parenthetically, I also wonder if the €130 feels steeper because you’re used to a more favorable Euro:Dollar conversion rate (obviously this won’t account for the full cost difference between US and Irish passports)?
@throwaway894345 Oh wow, i guess i was brainwashed a little from another article i read yesterday that was a totally separate topic...But when i quickly glanced at your note about $13/year...my brain immediately filled in the blanks with the following marketing: Hey, for the low annual subscription cost of $13/year, you too can travel the world! Dont' just order a one-and-done passport. Order your U.S. travel subscription today, and save! U.S. State department operators are standing by to take your order! And if you order in the next 24 hours, we'll add all of your personal data to our convenience databases (managed by the CIA and NSA), and in the future as you comitt crimes, the data from these databases can be used to automatically auto-fill those pesky law enforcement forms! lol :-D (Sorry, i know that's not what you meant your comment to convey.)
I suppose it's more that it's closer to €55 a trip - and the conversion rate is a small part of it, really.
Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy.
Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy.
> I suppose it's more that it's closer to €55 a trip - and the conversion rate is a small part of it, really.
If you look at it in terms of per trip, and you're only planning on traveling twice for the duration of the passport's validity, then yes. Even still, $55 is a <5% increase on the cost of a cross-Atlantic trip. Maybe I'm just jaded by a dysfunctional political system such that this seems like a relatively small inconvenience to me (as far as government dealings go). :)
> Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy.
This seems unrelated to my comment (I'm certainly not saying what you suggest in this quote). Did you mean to reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32609309?
If you look at it in terms of per trip, and you're only planning on traveling twice for the duration of the passport's validity, then yes. Even still, $55 is a <5% increase on the cost of a cross-Atlantic trip. Maybe I'm just jaded by a dysfunctional political system such that this seems like a relatively small inconvenience to me (as far as government dealings go). :)
> Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy.
This seems unrelated to my comment (I'm certainly not saying what you suggest in this quote). Did you mean to reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32609309?
As a nit: US minor passports last 5 years, so it's around $26/year.
If she's under 16, you don't need a passport (or equivalent), if entering by land or sea:
"The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative requires U.S. citizens, age 16 and older, to present a valid, acceptable travel document, such as a passport, a U.S. passport card, a trusted traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI, Global Entry or FAST/EXPRESS), a Permanent Resident Card or an enhanced driver’s license that denotes both identity and citizenship when entering the U.S. by land or sea. U.S. citizens under age 16 may present a birth certificate or alternative proof of citizenship when entering by land or sea. All travelers must have a passport book for international air travel."
https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/guides/A5...
"The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative requires U.S. citizens, age 16 and older, to present a valid, acceptable travel document, such as a passport, a U.S. passport card, a trusted traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI, Global Entry or FAST/EXPRESS), a Permanent Resident Card or an enhanced driver’s license that denotes both identity and citizenship when entering the U.S. by land or sea. U.S. citizens under age 16 may present a birth certificate or alternative proof of citizenship when entering by land or sea. All travelers must have a passport book for international air travel."
https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/guides/A5...
Upvoted for thinking outside the box. Europe to US by sea.. Doesn't it take like a month?
Edit: They can go by transatlantic cruise or a cargo ship, which takes about two weeks.
Edit: They can go by transatlantic cruise or a cargo ship, which takes about two weeks.
I mean it’s $130 but it lasts for 5 years - 10 if you’re an adult.
That’s $26 per year or $2/month.
That’s $26 per year or $2/month.
It's a legitimate question. What exactly makes a US passport more expensive? The cost of labor, shipping, and manufacture isn't 4.5x here than that of Ireland. Even If the a US passport is less than a cup of coffee a month, that doesn't make the cost justified.
Other countries see passports as a normal thing to have - a second identity document to keep at home in case your wallet is stolen, etc, and so charge a reasonable price for it.
I think the US government might see it as a thing that wealthier people use for travel abroad, and so feel justified in charging more for it.
I think the US government might see it as a thing that wealthier people use for travel abroad, and so feel justified in charging more for it.
This is a children's passport; an adult Irish passport is basically the same price as an adult US passport. Given my experience growing up in Ireland, I would guess that the Irish government is subsidizing passports for children.
good point - adult passport book is €75, card (valid in Europe) is €35
https://passportonline.dfa.ie/Apply/Passport
I assume Ireland subsidizes theirs?
You’re paying for all the thousands of State Department Employees, the IT, the passport book itself, etc.
It wouldn’t surprise me all in it costs that much.
You’re paying for all the thousands of State Department Employees, the IT, the passport book itself, etc.
It wouldn’t surprise me all in it costs that much.
I went through this process the other day with an expired passport and it took two weeks from submitting my documents online to getting a new passport and passport card. I had paid for expedited processing and shipping. Overall a great experience.
That sounds like a terrible experience to be honest. Two weeks for the expedited procedure ? The normal procedure here (Netherlands) takes 5 working days. If you pay for the expedited procedure and you order one before 14:00 you can pick up your passport the next day after 10:00.
I don't think 2-5 (if not expedited) weeks is too unreasonable for something you need to do once every 10 years. I have no idea what is actually entailed in the process, but maybe population size accounts for the timing difference. As another comment said, if you really need it rushed (ie have a valid reason) and your passport has not expired, the time is as short as 3 days.
I don’t see how population size would affect it. You’d need more capacity to print them, but that’s just throughput. I don’t see why it should affect latency.
They basically need to print it and bind it into a booklet. When you order one you have to provide a new photo and fingerprint scan, but that is sent digitally. All the other data they need they just take from the citizen registry database.
They basically need to print it and bind it into a booklet. When you order one you have to provide a new photo and fingerprint scan, but that is sent digitally. All the other data they need they just take from the citizen registry database.
There's obviously some tradeoff between hiring more people to process and verify an increased number of applications at faster throughput. Shipping times from DE/DC to CA are probably longer than coast-to-coast in the Netherlands, etc.
At the end of the day, 5 weeks standard, 2 weeks priority, and X days rushed are perfectly reasonable turnarounds for a process that only needs to be done once every ten years. Uploading my documents took <10 minutes and I wouldn't have needed it any faster. This is a far stretch from "terrible" and optimizing it for more capacity is probably a waste of resources.
At the end of the day, 5 weeks standard, 2 weeks priority, and X days rushed are perfectly reasonable turnarounds for a process that only needs to be done once every ten years. Uploading my documents took <10 minutes and I wouldn't have needed it any faster. This is a far stretch from "terrible" and optimizing it for more capacity is probably a waste of resources.
> There's obviously some tradeoff between hiring more people to process and verify an increased number of applications at faster throughput.
But that’s the thing. You need a certain throughput, and it shouldn’t affect the wait time. If you get X passport applications per day, and you can only produce less than X per day, your wait times will keep increasing over time. So at the minimum you need the same amount of production capacity as you have applications, preferably a little bit more. Assuming this is the case, then there must be something else causing the delays. Sure, there can be a small queue due to fluctuating orders but surely not 5 weeks ?
So there are two possibilities: either it actually takes weeks to manufacture the document, which seems odd, or it only takes a couple of minutes but there is some reason it takes 5 weeks before production is started.
> Shipping times from DE/DC to CA are probably longer than coast-to-coast in the Netherlands, etc.
Shipping for pretty much everything in the Netherlands is next-day. But I see no reason why you have to ship from the other side of the country. You can run a big country as if it was a collection of small countries. Isn’t that kind of what US states are anyway ? You have 20 times the number of people as the Netherlands, why not have 20 production facilities spread around the country ?
But that’s the thing. You need a certain throughput, and it shouldn’t affect the wait time. If you get X passport applications per day, and you can only produce less than X per day, your wait times will keep increasing over time. So at the minimum you need the same amount of production capacity as you have applications, preferably a little bit more. Assuming this is the case, then there must be something else causing the delays. Sure, there can be a small queue due to fluctuating orders but surely not 5 weeks ?
So there are two possibilities: either it actually takes weeks to manufacture the document, which seems odd, or it only takes a couple of minutes but there is some reason it takes 5 weeks before production is started.
> Shipping times from DE/DC to CA are probably longer than coast-to-coast in the Netherlands, etc.
Shipping for pretty much everything in the Netherlands is next-day. But I see no reason why you have to ship from the other side of the country. You can run a big country as if it was a collection of small countries. Isn’t that kind of what US states are anyway ? You have 20 times the number of people as the Netherlands, why not have 20 production facilities spread around the country ?
> If you get X passport applications per day
submissions and throughput fluctuate and the quoted times are obviously estimates based on what the government has decided is a reasonable expected value for their target opex spend given historic application rates. I don't see why it's surprising that they chose some target timeline and staffed accordingly.
> why not have 20 production facilities spread around the country ?
because that's horribly inefficient and there's not point in spending resources to bring down a perfectly reasonable renewal time for a once-a-decade process
submissions and throughput fluctuate and the quoted times are obviously estimates based on what the government has decided is a reasonable expected value for their target opex spend given historic application rates. I don't see why it's surprising that they chose some target timeline and staffed accordingly.
> why not have 20 production facilities spread around the country ?
because that's horribly inefficient and there's not point in spending resources to bring down a perfectly reasonable renewal time for a once-a-decade process
I renewed my Indian passport 8000 miles away in California. The process took me around 10 days, no physical visits necessary. Honestly, I am quite impressed at the Indian passport services these days , both in the country and abroad.
Aisde: If you apply for a passport for the very first time, does it require someone to countersign your application? Or some means to verify you?
For example, in the UK, we have no national ID card. So, first-time passport applications and photos must be signed by someone else (the ‘countersignatory’) to prove the identity of the person applying.
(From GOV.UK) Your countersignatory must:
- have known you for at least 2 years
- be able to identify you, for example they’re a friend, neighbour or colleague (not just someone who knows you professionally)
- be ‘a person of good standing in their community’ or work in (or be retired from) a recognised profession (there is a accepted occupations for countersignatories)
The countersignatory signs one of you photos and application. As far I'm aware, there is no real way to verify the countersignatory.
How are brand new passports issued in other countries when identity is required?
For example, in the UK, we have no national ID card. So, first-time passport applications and photos must be signed by someone else (the ‘countersignatory’) to prove the identity of the person applying.
(From GOV.UK) Your countersignatory must:
- have known you for at least 2 years
- be able to identify you, for example they’re a friend, neighbour or colleague (not just someone who knows you professionally)
- be ‘a person of good standing in their community’ or work in (or be retired from) a recognised profession (there is a accepted occupations for countersignatories)
The countersignatory signs one of you photos and application. As far I'm aware, there is no real way to verify the countersignatory.
How are brand new passports issued in other countries when identity is required?
In Myanmar, national ID card. Household document that list the member of household.
Did my Irish passport recently, it was all online. Your old passport is rendered null once your new one is issued.
Here in Finland I can order a passport or ID card online, just need to add a photo to system. But now I need to go to police station to give sample of handwriting and possibly update my fingerprints... Waste of time. They already have both, but those are too old...
The whole paper process was foolish anyway - you go online to fill out an application, which then prints a bar code on the paper for them to scan. (They don't actually read the text on the form, it's all by the barcode.)
They scan the photo you send in anyway, and then print it on the passport. So they don't actually need you to ever so carefully make sure the photo is the right size.
It's like the joke about printing a document, then taking a picture of it on a wooden table: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Web_0_0x2e_1
Just upload the info, upload a digital photo, and cut out all the paper.
They scan the photo you send in anyway, and then print it on the passport. So they don't actually need you to ever so carefully make sure the photo is the right size.
It's like the joke about printing a document, then taking a picture of it on a wooden table: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Web_0_0x2e_1
Just upload the info, upload a digital photo, and cut out all the paper.
Passports should be automatic for every American and free. I'm not sure what the downside would be, other than the relatively small cost.
There is a rule somewhere that Passport processing must pay for itself with user fees, i.e. that it should not cost any taxes at all to do it.
Considering how expensive a passport is, there's something about the process that's very expensive, don't know what.
Considering how expensive a passport is, there's something about the process that's very expensive, don't know what.
Right, they should repeal that rule. The expense is in the verification of physical documents. But if they do this online system for everyone then the cost would go way down.
And even if it didn't, it would cost perhaps $3B a year (because they last for 10 years). That's pocket change to the US government. Not to mention the savings from dropping the RealID program, which would be unnecessary.
And even if it didn't, it would cost perhaps $3B a year (because they last for 10 years). That's pocket change to the US government. Not to mention the savings from dropping the RealID program, which would be unnecessary.
I agree with what you are saying but it would be the perfect encapsulation of US government in the 21st century to eliminate the RealID program after a decade or more of working to get all 50 states on board.
If that's a great concept, they should extend that to the rest of government services.
For the most part, they do.
A lot of services are paid for be user fees: Permits, Licenses, Inspections, Customs for commercial shipping, even Airport Security is paid for by surcharges on your ticket. Car License plates, Drivers Licenses, National Park entrance fees.
It's basically: Did you ask for it? Pay for it.
A lot of services are paid for be user fees: Permits, Licenses, Inspections, Customs for commercial shipping, even Airport Security is paid for by surcharges on your ticket. Car License plates, Drivers Licenses, National Park entrance fees.
It's basically: Did you ask for it? Pay for it.
>Did you ask for it? Pay for it.
I'm trying to reconcile that with someone else asking for a $10k federal loan, and then me (or somebody who never asked to go to college at all) being the one to pay it for them (through inflation or taxes).
I'm trying to reconcile that with someone else asking for a $10k federal loan, and then me (or somebody who never asked to go to college at all) being the one to pay it for them (through inflation or taxes).
The passport process in the USA is beyond awful. I just had to renew passports for my three kids, and my wife. It took a call to my local house of representatives office (who referred me to a different rep) to make it happen after 6 months.
Anything to do with the government is beyond awful.
From a country that practically invented modern software, modern SaaS solutions, modern mobile apps, it's a total disgrace.
Anything to do with the government is beyond awful.
From a country that practically invented modern software, modern SaaS solutions, modern mobile apps, it's a total disgrace.
I am super paranoid about passports since when I got my first one in 2020, USPS delivered it to the wrong house. They never got it back. So there is a passport of me out there in someone's hands.
I had it cancelled and got a new one issued, but who knows how often just my photo ID is being used :S. And the fact that they have all the info from my passport.
I had it cancelled and got a new one issued, but who knows how often just my photo ID is being used :S. And the fact that they have all the info from my passport.
I just renewed my passport completely online through their beta program, and it was amazing. Only about two weeks from when I submitted the form to my new passport arriving. Hopefully that's the rough timeline for everyone going forward, but I wonder if they are able to process things faster right now due to lower volume.
Hopefully they'll accept these ones. A few border entries ago, CBP told me they recognized my US passport but they weren't going to let me in anyway. Several hours and interrogations later they finally admitted they had to let in a US citizen, "but remember we can cancel your passport."
LOL.
LOL.
Just spent 2 hours at a passport office to renew. I even had an "appointment" :(
This change will be quite welcome. The most difficult part of my last renewal was to find a working stapler in order to attach the passport photo. The experience had me questioning whether we are really living in 2022.
When I got mine a few years ago, it was a process. Mailing in forms. Going to get photos taken and having to mail physical copies in. Waiting for weeks.
I renewed my passport online. It went so fast. I already got an email today saying the renewed passport shipped. It took a couple of weeks only.
My (US) wife continues to be in awe of the UK services compared to the US. I just wish the bus would come on time when I'm over there...