Circle is being censored from the C++ Reddit(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Circle is being censored from the C++ Reddit
https://twitter.com/seanbax/status/1590573210726121473
21 comments
It seems like a communication issue. The mod said that the post was removed for being off-topic - when it was clearly removed for having a misleading title.
"Removed for being off-topic" would imply that no other posts about the language would be accepted - it is understandable that this caused a bit of anger in the author.
"Removed for having a misleading title" would imply that only the misleading title is offending - and that other posts would be accepted, as long as they didn't have a misleading title. I'm sure if the mod explicitly said this, it wouldn't cause this much of a reaction.
"Removed for being off-topic" would imply that no other posts about the language would be accepted - it is understandable that this caused a bit of anger in the author.
"Removed for having a misleading title" would imply that only the misleading title is offending - and that other posts would be accepted, as long as they didn't have a misleading title. I'm sure if the mod explicitly said this, it wouldn't cause this much of a reaction.
Twitter OP seems like they are chomping at the bit for any excuse to play victim related to their personal programming language (err, sorry, I mean C++ compiler extension hosted on a website that ends with -lang.org)
https://twitter.com/foonathan/status/1590612183423254528
https://twitter.com/foonathan/status/1590612183423254528
The mod’s response seems fairly reasonable (from an outsider’s perspective). Has the author considered trying r/programming, HN, or Lobste.rs?
If they need the publicity so badly, going on a rant like this doesn’t seem helpful.
If they need the publicity so badly, going on a rant like this doesn’t seem helpful.
> The mod’s response seems fairly reasonable
Of course it does, it is in mod's interest to have "reasonable cause" in case things like this end up public.
However, there is nothing of sorts even mentioned in the /r/cpp rules:
Searching further, there seem to be even more not-quite-C++ posts hanging around not getting removed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/xgcbt9/cppfront_herb_s...
https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/r27dea/i_wrote_a_simpl...
https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/ug90nz/a_ruststyle_bor...
Based on those facts, I find it fairly plausible that the mod is doing it in bad faith. But Reddit is especially notorius for its mods' powertripping and lack of accountability, so it's nothing new in my book.
Of course it does, it is in mod's interest to have "reasonable cause" in case things like this end up public.
However, there is nothing of sorts even mentioned in the /r/cpp rules:
1. Question/Help
Questions and help posts are off-topic for this subreddit. Use r/cpp_questions or StackOverflow instead.
2. Off-topic
[empty]
Searching further, there seem to be even more not-quite-C++ posts hanging around not getting removed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/xgcbt9/cppfront_herb_s...
https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/r27dea/i_wrote_a_simpl...
https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/ug90nz/a_ruststyle_bor...
Based on those facts, I find it fairly plausible that the mod is doing it in bad faith. But Reddit is especially notorius for its mods' powertripping and lack of accountability, so it's nothing new in my book.
The Val post is about the object model and how it relates to (and could be used in a future version of) C++, and is written by major contributors in the C++ space like David Abrahams.
OP's post, on the other hand, is blatant promotion of their personal programming language, and I'm not sure why they think it would be allowed on /r/cpp
OP's post, on the other hand, is blatant promotion of their personal programming language, and I'm not sure why they think it would be allowed on /r/cpp
> OP's post, on the other hand, is blatant self-promotion of their personal programming language
It's not a whole new language, it's a C++ compiler with extensions. Going by that logic, sharing GNU C++ compiler on /r/cpp should also be banned, which is absurd if you ask me.
Regardless, lack of explicit rules makes it very easy for abuse. Who decides what is "off-topic" and what is not? Mods. And without clear rules, I find it hard to believe that they, themselves, have a completely objective view on such issues.
I'm not implying that the mod necessarily is malicious, I'm just pointing out why there's a reasonable doubt that they just as well might be.
It's not a whole new language, it's a C++ compiler with extensions. Going by that logic, sharing GNU C++ compiler on /r/cpp should also be banned, which is absurd if you ask me.
Regardless, lack of explicit rules makes it very easy for abuse. Who decides what is "off-topic" and what is not? Mods. And without clear rules, I find it hard to believe that they, themselves, have a completely objective view on such issues.
I'm not implying that the mod necessarily is malicious, I'm just pointing out why there's a reasonable doubt that they just as well might be.
The (author-chosen) domain for their ""compiler with extensions"" is circle-lang.org
So we can safely throw out any arguments about it not being a language. Promoting another programming language is about as off-topic as it gets.
So we can safely throw out any arguments about it not being a language. Promoting another programming language is about as off-topic as it gets.
A domain name containing a word "lang" doesn't change the language itself, regardless of the author's reasons for choosing it. Also, when you open the site, it clearly states:
> Circle is a new C++20 compiler. It's written from scratch and designed for easy extension.
Is GNU C++ also a different programming language from C++, just for having extensions? If yes, should it also be banned from discussion on /r/cpp?
> Circle is a new C++20 compiler. It's written from scratch and designed for easy extension.
Is GNU C++ also a different programming language from C++, just for having extensions? If yes, should it also be banned from discussion on /r/cpp?
The website used to call it a programming language, but I assume you think that when the website stopped calling it a programming language that it turned into just a compiler?
Regardless, this discussion is actually irrelevant. I later found out (and linked to here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33548314) that Circle isn't even regularly ""censored"" on /r/cpp.
Although, for the record, I would be ok if the mods removed all Circle-related posts on /r/cpp for the reasons I stated above, but no point in discussing that as it isn't even what's happening.
In reality, this was a single post with a misleading title, but Circle's author is apparently desperately looking for any opportunity to play the victim.
Regardless, this discussion is actually irrelevant. I later found out (and linked to here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33548314) that Circle isn't even regularly ""censored"" on /r/cpp.
Although, for the record, I would be ok if the mods removed all Circle-related posts on /r/cpp for the reasons I stated above, but no point in discussing that as it isn't even what's happening.
In reality, this was a single post with a misleading title, but Circle's author is apparently desperately looking for any opportunity to play the victim.
Quoting the relevant part of the Tweet linked:
> In reality, this was a single post with a misleading title, but Circle's author is apparently desperately looking for any opportunity to play the victim.
The mod's at fault here, 100%, for communicating wrong information. I'd react the same if I was told that my C++ compiler is "off topic" in a place created for discussion of C++, where various other dialects and extensions to C++ are also discussed on a regular basis.
---
Replying to previous arguments for completeness:
> I assume you think that when the website stopped calling it a programming language that it turned into just a compiler?
No, I think that what someone calls it doesn't make any difference on what it is. If you call it a Java compiler, it doesn't magically become a Java compiler.
Each compiler de-facto defines its own "language" - the set of strings it accepts as valid input. The question is just whether or not the set of strings Circle accepts can be called C++ if it has extensions. My argument is that there isn't a clear distinction - but it is a C++ compiler, since it accepts C++. The same way GNU C++ compiler is a C++ compiler since it accepts C++, regardless of various GNU extensions that it also accepts. It is a dishonest take to call it a "completely different language", since that would imply that it has nothing to do with C++ - when it actually has plenty.
Third, the main catalyst for this entire discussion is the title. Someone posted your tweet with the title "C++ type erasure aka traits object", which is misleading as it's not about C++. People reported it, a moderator looked at it, and removed the post.
> In reality, this was a single post with a misleading title, but Circle's author is apparently desperately looking for any opportunity to play the victim.
The mod's at fault here, 100%, for communicating wrong information. I'd react the same if I was told that my C++ compiler is "off topic" in a place created for discussion of C++, where various other dialects and extensions to C++ are also discussed on a regular basis.
---
Replying to previous arguments for completeness:
> I assume you think that when the website stopped calling it a programming language that it turned into just a compiler?
No, I think that what someone calls it doesn't make any difference on what it is. If you call it a Java compiler, it doesn't magically become a Java compiler.
Each compiler de-facto defines its own "language" - the set of strings it accepts as valid input. The question is just whether or not the set of strings Circle accepts can be called C++ if it has extensions. My argument is that there isn't a clear distinction - but it is a C++ compiler, since it accepts C++. The same way GNU C++ compiler is a C++ compiler since it accepts C++, regardless of various GNU extensions that it also accepts. It is a dishonest take to call it a "completely different language", since that would imply that it has nothing to do with C++ - when it actually has plenty.
The mod's post makes it pretty clear the primary reason for the removal is that the tweet (and reddit post title) implies the features are coming to C++, while in reality they're an extension actually coming to OP's compiler.
That said, I think there's some nuance between GCC's extensions and Circle's extensions.
GCC extensions are like "return the minimum of two numbers" (https://web.mit.edu/rhel-doc/3/rhel-gcc-en-3/c---extensions....), while Circle's extensions are more like "reflection in C++" (https://github.com/seanbaxter/circle/blob/master/reflection/...). GCC works with the existing C++ community and standards committees, while Circle's extensions are just the author implementing whatever random features they want.
We can disagree about exactly where the line is when Circle diverges enough from C++ it deserves to be called a separate language rather than just a compiler extension. And maybe you think it hasn't crossed that line yet while I do, but I don't think it's fair to claim it 100% cannot be a different language just because GCC has extensions.
That said, I think there's some nuance between GCC's extensions and Circle's extensions.
GCC extensions are like "return the minimum of two numbers" (https://web.mit.edu/rhel-doc/3/rhel-gcc-en-3/c---extensions....), while Circle's extensions are more like "reflection in C++" (https://github.com/seanbaxter/circle/blob/master/reflection/...). GCC works with the existing C++ community and standards committees, while Circle's extensions are just the author implementing whatever random features they want.
We can disagree about exactly where the line is when Circle diverges enough from C++ it deserves to be called a separate language rather than just a compiler extension. And maybe you think it hasn't crossed that line yet while I do, but I don't think it's fair to claim it 100% cannot be a different language just because GCC has extensions.
> The mod's post makes it pretty clear the primary reason for the removal is that the tweet (and reddit post title) implies the features are coming to C++, while in reality they're an extension actually coming to OP's compiler.
The mod used the term "off-topic" - even your explanation states that the removal has nothing to do with the tweet and reddit post title being off-topic, but rather about being misleading. I assume the implications of "off-topic" (implications being that everything related to Circle is off-topic and therefore will be deleted) were what caused the author's reaction.
> GCC works with the existing C++ community and standards committees
Note that it wasn't always the case. Even with the C compiler, GNU extensions used to be non-standard, until GCC got popular enough for the committee to start caring. Many GNU extensions to C became standard C - but back in the day, they weren't C. Taxonomy of languages is an inherently unclear area with many shades of gray, both with natural and programming languages.
> I don't think it's fair to claim it 100% cannot be a different language just because GCC has extensions
True, Circle provides significantly more extensions to C++ than GCC.
I guess my point is that, in context of the /r/cpp, it's not that off-topic, the same way as discussing Groovy on a Java subreddit would probably not be off-topic - even though Groovy defines a huge number of extensions to the Java language, it's still a derivative of Java and has a lot to do with Java. I simply disagree with that level of puritanism on subreddits.
The mod used the term "off-topic" - even your explanation states that the removal has nothing to do with the tweet and reddit post title being off-topic, but rather about being misleading. I assume the implications of "off-topic" (implications being that everything related to Circle is off-topic and therefore will be deleted) were what caused the author's reaction.
> GCC works with the existing C++ community and standards committees
Note that it wasn't always the case. Even with the C compiler, GNU extensions used to be non-standard, until GCC got popular enough for the committee to start caring. Many GNU extensions to C became standard C - but back in the day, they weren't C. Taxonomy of languages is an inherently unclear area with many shades of gray, both with natural and programming languages.
> I don't think it's fair to claim it 100% cannot be a different language just because GCC has extensions
True, Circle provides significantly more extensions to C++ than GCC.
I guess my point is that, in context of the /r/cpp, it's not that off-topic, the same way as discussing Groovy on a Java subreddit would probably not be off-topic - even though Groovy defines a huge number of extensions to the Java language, it's still a derivative of Java and has a lot to do with Java. I simply disagree with that level of puritanism on subreddits.
I guess my real point is, instead of trying to “expose” the subreddit mod, spend that energy somewhere else and let it go.
I agree with your real point, personally.
But also sympathize with the guy. Getting stopped from posting something that you've spent a good deal of time and effort building surely feels bad.
But also sympathize with the guy. Getting stopped from posting something that you've spent a good deal of time and effort building surely feels bad.
I can sympathize with feeling like a moderator of a popular subreddit is suppressing debate/dissent. It is infuriating, especially when conflict of interest is suspected.
Doesnt help they work in a similar space makes it seem deliberately malicious.
> or Lobste.rs
This is invite only, so unless the author knows another user it won't be much help. I have visited the site for years without, to my knowledge, knowing another user who can invite me.
This is invite only, so unless the author knows another user it won't be much help. I have visited the site for years without, to my knowledge, knowing another user who can invite me.
I have an account, hardly ever log in. The community is too small for good discussion, but the links to tools or other information is invaluable. You're fine browsing anonymously.
I used to have an account there and participated in the discussion for years until I got banned a few years ago in a discussion with a blue Anime-fox avatar who was on a mission to politicise the discourse. Judging from similar reports this seems to be relatively common on the site so I just gave up on it. The discourse can be good but the place does not allow anyone to deviate from the desired narrative.
It is odd to see how lobste.rs grew of out discontent with the way HN was moderated but ended up falling into that trap itself. The way a site is moderated is a decisive factor for the couleur locale or 'culture' of the place. While I have my grumblings about HN moderation - or, more specifically, about the use of down-votes for expressing disagreement - this site is not as hostile to those who do not follow the narrative as lobste.rs is - or was, I have not been there for a long time so things could have changed.
It is odd to see how lobste.rs grew of out discontent with the way HN was moderated but ended up falling into that trap itself. The way a site is moderated is a decisive factor for the couleur locale or 'culture' of the place. While I have my grumblings about HN moderation - or, more specifically, about the use of down-votes for expressing disagreement - this site is not as hostile to those who do not follow the narrative as lobste.rs is - or was, I have not been there for a long time so things could have changed.
I've seen other examples where thinking outside the C++ box is taboo. There was a talk at one of the conferences where the speaker was obviously referring to some of the enhancements introduced by Qt while taking care to never actually mention it by name.
The original post was misleading: https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/yqjrwx/c_type_erasure_...
Circle Lang is a superset of C++. It isn't C++. Maybe you should frame the post as a feature proposal instead of showing something that C++ can't do, and claiming it as C++. If this isn't your post, then I apologize for the assumption.
EDIT: Looks like someone's done this already and the post is happy: https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/yriwxr/potential_c_ext...