Tesla broke labor laws by telling workers not to discuss pay, NLRB claims(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Tesla broke labor laws by telling workers not to discuss pay, NLRB claims
https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/31/23533743/tesla-florida-workers-pay-working-conditions-nlrb
65 comments
> Tesla tried to ban pro-union t-shirts.
That's a misleading way of putting it. It makes it sound like they said "you can wear whatever shirt you want except for pro-union ones", but what they really said was basically "you have to wear our uniform shirt".
That's a misleading way of putting it. It makes it sound like they said "you can wear whatever shirt you want except for pro-union ones", but what they really said was basically "you have to wear our uniform shirt".
That's a misleading way of putting it. Tesla said "you have to wear our uniform shirt [because you started wearing pro-union shirts]" and the NLRB told them to get stuffed.
I included the wrong link for Wikipedia and can no longer edit my comment. It's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Tes...
It's not like the NLRB is some paragon of virtue.
Care to elaborate for those of us who aren’t aware of what you’re talking about?
I bet lots of large (and small) companies have a similar pattern. This was in a single location during a two month period. It could be Tesla as a whole or it could be one dumbass manager.
So much about this post and the article are misleading.
The shirt one was a ruling that was previously undecided. It is not like Tesla did something that was explicitly against the law; they were just ruled against. But the way this ruling has been described makes it sound like they are the evil Empire.
So much about this post and the article are misleading.
The shirt one was a ruling that was previously undecided. It is not like Tesla did something that was explicitly against the law; they were just ruled against. But the way this ruling has been described makes it sound like they are the evil Empire.
Why in 2023 do people continue to treat Tesla with kid gloves? One dumbass manager? Companies are merely collections of people, money, IP, and organisational inertia. How is “one dumbass manager” any sort of mitigation? We are fully within our rights to attribute the actions of an employee at a company, in service of their employment at said company, to the company itself. Unless of course this is all implicitly about defending the reputation of Elon Musk, which itself is cringeworthy.
It's pretty obvious that someone threatening the profits of major car manufacturers, gasoline producers, aerospace contractors, and Russia is going to get dragged in the media. The article was sparse on actual details. I'm pro union but that doesn't make UAW awesome or a bunch of angels. I never see the same amount of outrage for the companies that fought EVs, better gas mileage, and every safety feature ever introduced. Hyundai had an Alabama subsidiary that was caught with foreign 13 and 14 year olds working there and we hardly hear a peep. Spare me the "Tesla is the great evil" BS. Any company of its size will have similar issues.
I'm going to name and shame.
When I was employed at Morgan Stanley they told us not to discuss our salaries or else we will get fired. I wish I had the balls to report them while I was there.
When I was employed at Morgan Stanley they told us not to discuss our salaries or else we will get fired. I wish I had the balls to report them while I was there.
This seems common in my experience.
I am not brave enough to name and shame, but I worked as a low-level manager at a US-based financial services firm and my boss asked us to discourage our reports from discussing pay or bonuses. He seemed genuinely surprised when I pointed out that us doing so would be a violation of labor law. Long-story short, we ran it up the flagpole and the company ended up including it in manager training.
I am not brave enough to name and shame, but I worked as a low-level manager at a US-based financial services firm and my boss asked us to discourage our reports from discussing pay or bonuses. He seemed genuinely surprised when I pointed out that us doing so would be a violation of labor law. Long-story short, we ran it up the flagpole and the company ended up including it in manager training.
every employer ive had has been clear about this. in mid 90s i worked at a electronics store called circuit city. had coworker get fired after discussing hourly pay. in 2000s i worked gas stations and hotels. same thing. went back to school and first white collar job discussing salary was not allowed and they say so at orientation training.
think tesla news is because people are against musk and targeting him. convinced this still widespread and happening everywhere. media just pushing narrative.
think tesla news is because people are against musk and targeting him. convinced this still widespread and happening everywhere. media just pushing narrative.
Lots of companies doing a shitty thing is not some magical excuse for any given company also doing that shitty thing. On the contrary, we should be happy that the focus on Tesla has the power to bring more light to this issue.
>”Lots of companies doing a shitty thing is not some magical excuse for any given company also doing that shitty thing”
strawman argument. something is widespread and has been widespread but now has spotlight because “tesla” and “musk”. and spotlight on tesla here, not other abusers.
the news media doing this reporting is not to unhide injustice but a focused assault on musk and tesla.
should force critical thinking about why media has turned so hard against tesla or musk. what is it they are afraid of?
strawman argument. something is widespread and has been widespread but now has spotlight because “tesla” and “musk”. and spotlight on tesla here, not other abusers.
the news media doing this reporting is not to unhide injustice but a focused assault on musk and tesla.
should force critical thinking about why media has turned so hard against tesla or musk. what is it they are afraid of?
> what is it they are afraid of?
Maybe they're not afraid of anything. Maybe Tesla and Musk are just grubby operators.
Maybe they're not afraid of anything. Maybe Tesla and Musk are just grubby operators.
> Maybe they're not afraid of anything. Maybe Tesla and Musk are just grubby operators.
what it mean grubby operators? there is no major headline in 2022/2023 than daily obsession with musk and every move?
there is narrative to destroy musk and undermine his companies. paradox that tesla ev company and media favors progressive shift to ev going away from fossil fuel.
much of anger and propaganda since he bought twitter i think they fear his active management style is threat to american mass media monopoly on shaping culture and world opinion. they fear because he owns twitter and fired much of company that had political alignment with american mass media machinery.
what it mean grubby operators? there is no major headline in 2022/2023 than daily obsession with musk and every move?
there is narrative to destroy musk and undermine his companies. paradox that tesla ev company and media favors progressive shift to ev going away from fossil fuel.
much of anger and propaganda since he bought twitter i think they fear his active management style is threat to american mass media monopoly on shaping culture and world opinion. they fear because he owns twitter and fired much of company that had political alignment with american mass media machinery.
> what it mean grubby operators?
Breaking labour laws by telling workers not to discuss pay is the mark of a grubby operator. All US workers are entitled to discuss wages, whether a company likes it or not:
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...
Breaking labour laws by telling workers not to discuss pay is the mark of a grubby operator. All US workers are entitled to discuss wages, whether a company likes it or not:
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...
This is baffling to me. it's so obviously a sleight of hand by the employer, in the sense of 'don't tell the others you're my favorite, or they'll be jealous.' The idea that the employer has any basis whatsoever to restrict conversation among employees is absurd on its face. It's one thing to say 'don't give away the recipe of our secret dipping sauce,' on the basis that it's a trade secret. maintaining internal secrecy about all compensation is just pitting your employees against each other and seems incompatible with establishing/maintaining team cohesion.
It's a good chance to raise awareness that sharing your compensation with your co-workers is an action protected by your civil rights in the United States.
What rock are you living under? The struggle between employers and employees has been a major topic for some time now. Quiet quitting, etc. The whole thing about it being illegal to do this as an employer is not being discussed solely as a dunk on Musk.
Every employer you had was violating the law, if they told you that discussing wages will result in termination. Doubly so if they actually fired someone over doing so. Discussing wages between employees is federally protected activity that employers may not interfere with. It's very similar to how the FCC has the jurisdiction to prevent landlords from prohibiting tenants from mounting antennas and satellite dishes on parts of the property where they have an exclusive right of access.
Even today, if you were to walk around and ask random people on the street, they'd probably tell you that it's illegal or wrong to talk about your wages. I even personally know a manager of a business who has that opinion (and the two of us have even had quite verbal and heated arguments about the topic).
Every employer you had was violating the law, if they told you that discussing wages will result in termination. Doubly so if they actually fired someone over doing so. Discussing wages between employees is federally protected activity that employers may not interfere with. It's very similar to how the FCC has the jurisdiction to prevent landlords from prohibiting tenants from mounting antennas and satellite dishes on parts of the property where they have an exclusive right of access.
Even today, if you were to walk around and ask random people on the street, they'd probably tell you that it's illegal or wrong to talk about your wages. I even personally know a manager of a business who has that opinion (and the two of us have even had quite verbal and heated arguments about the topic).
> every employer ive had has been clear about this.
Why did you submit to their unlawful attempts at restricting your speech? Was it just ignorance of your rights?
Everyone in the US can discuss their wages. It doesn't matter what employers are "clear" about:
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...
This is not a new situation. The National Labor Relations Act was passed in 1935:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_o...
> media just pushing narrative.
No different to you pushing your narrative that everyone should submit to the unlawful whims of employers.
Why did you submit to their unlawful attempts at restricting your speech? Was it just ignorance of your rights?
Everyone in the US can discuss their wages. It doesn't matter what employers are "clear" about:
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...
This is not a new situation. The National Labor Relations Act was passed in 1935:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_o...
> media just pushing narrative.
No different to you pushing your narrative that everyone should submit to the unlawful whims of employers.
> Why did you submit to their unlawful attempts at restricting your speech? Was it just ignorance of your rights?
don’t come from privilege. For some people easy to virtue signal in a condecending way, as you do here. Was getting paid minimum wage to support family. whatever law is or however government holds that law if ever me can not risk losing job and not paying apartment rent with children at home.
>”No different to you pushing your narrative that everyone should submit to the unlawful whims of employers.”
no my point that Tesla and elon singled out because media hunt against him. my point that this has been abused and broken for decades, as i told you in me examples. media does not care. suddenly they talk about company breaking law as if they care about justice. Lol
for reasons you respond in bad faith..have unproductive discussion and on purpose or from arrogant misrepresent what i say and argue strawmans.
if you has issue with elon or Tesla, fine. amazes me how social justice people like you do this virtue signaling on behalf of laborers,poor (I was one through 1990 and 2000s) but it about you and your agenda not do with helping others or law
don’t come from privilege. For some people easy to virtue signal in a condecending way, as you do here. Was getting paid minimum wage to support family. whatever law is or however government holds that law if ever me can not risk losing job and not paying apartment rent with children at home.
>”No different to you pushing your narrative that everyone should submit to the unlawful whims of employers.”
no my point that Tesla and elon singled out because media hunt against him. my point that this has been abused and broken for decades, as i told you in me examples. media does not care. suddenly they talk about company breaking law as if they care about justice. Lol
for reasons you respond in bad faith..have unproductive discussion and on purpose or from arrogant misrepresent what i say and argue strawmans.
if you has issue with elon or Tesla, fine. amazes me how social justice people like you do this virtue signaling on behalf of laborers,poor (I was one through 1990 and 2000s) but it about you and your agenda not do with helping others or law
> don’t come from privilege.
Most people don't. That's all the more reason to stand up for yourself.
> if you has issue with elon or Tesla, fine.
So.. you have no issue with Elon or Tesla exploiting the ignorance of poor people like you? You desperately defend them not just in spite of what companies like them have done to you, but because of it?
There's no value in advocating further submission to companies like these. I'd say you've got a responsibility to educate other workers about their rights, precisely and especially because you have the lived experience of being a victim of this kind of unlawful conduct.
Most people don't. That's all the more reason to stand up for yourself.
> if you has issue with elon or Tesla, fine.
So.. you have no issue with Elon or Tesla exploiting the ignorance of poor people like you? You desperately defend them not just in spite of what companies like them have done to you, but because of it?
There's no value in advocating further submission to companies like these. I'd say you've got a responsibility to educate other workers about their rights, precisely and especially because you have the lived experience of being a victim of this kind of unlawful conduct.
>”So.. you have no issue with Elon or Tesla for exploiting the ignorance of poor people like you? You desperately defend them not just in spite of what companies like them have done to you, but because of it?”
Not my point at all did not defend elon or tesla. you English better than mine and think that much obvious to you. Sad that you continue this strawman posts and anger because someone say something not fitting your agenda.
Not my point at all did not defend elon or tesla. you English better than mine and think that much obvious to you. Sad that you continue this strawman posts and anger because someone say something not fitting your agenda.
> Not my point at all did not defend elon or tesla.
Yes it did. Trying to claim there is some kind of conspiracy against Musk or Tesla, and further claiming that forbidding discussion of wages is no big deal because other companies also do it, is an attempt at defending and minimizing the problem.
Yes it did. Trying to claim there is some kind of conspiracy against Musk or Tesla, and further claiming that forbidding discussion of wages is no big deal because other companies also do it, is an attempt at defending and minimizing the problem.
>”Trying to claim there is some kind of conspiracy against Musk or Tesla”
this is not defense of elon but indictment of media propaganda
>”and further claiming that forbidding discussion of wages is no big deal because other companies also do it”
me never said this. youre clearly antagonizing and even trolling me.
think my opinions didn’t fit cleanly with your agenda so like many of virtue signaling group, you resort to attacks and suppress opinions. fascist technique
this is not defense of elon but indictment of media propaganda
>”and further claiming that forbidding discussion of wages is no big deal because other companies also do it”
me never said this. youre clearly antagonizing and even trolling me.
think my opinions didn’t fit cleanly with your agenda so like many of virtue signaling group, you resort to attacks and suppress opinions. fascist technique
> this is not defense of elon but indictment of media propaganda
So.. reporting unlawful conduct is propaganda?
> youre clearly antagonizing and even trolling me.
No, just clarifying your confusion.
So.. reporting unlawful conduct is propaganda?
> youre clearly antagonizing and even trolling me.
No, just clarifying your confusion.
Selectively reporting a common behaviour is indeed propaganda.
You are trolling by casting the allegation as “confusion”.
You are trolling by casting the allegation as “confusion”.
> Selectively reporting a common behaviour is indeed propaganda.
This kind of conspiratorial thinking is just bizarre.
> You are trolling by casting the allegation as “confusion”.
Sorry, if you say dumb things you're going to be challenged on them. That's life in the real world.
This kind of conspiratorial thinking is just bizarre.
> You are trolling by casting the allegation as “confusion”.
Sorry, if you say dumb things you're going to be challenged on them. That's life in the real world.
> This kind of conspiratorial thinking is just bizarre.
You’re really that convinced this is honest reporting? That media isn’t biased? Or is it just bias when the media reports something you don’t like?
You’re really that convinced this is honest reporting? That media isn’t biased? Or is it just bias when the media reports something you don’t like?
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Labor is, ostensibly, a market.
Markets must be reasonably efficient to be useful. An inefficient market is useless, or worse than useless.
A sufficient condition for an efficient market is price transparency.
Regardless of how you feel (or have been conditioned to feel) about disclosing your pay, if you want the market to work, then pay must be transparent.
Markets must be reasonably efficient to be useful. An inefficient market is useless, or worse than useless.
A sufficient condition for an efficient market is price transparency.
Regardless of how you feel (or have been conditioned to feel) about disclosing your pay, if you want the market to work, then pay must be transparent.
Any large company that breaks laws get away with fines. However, individuals and small businesses do not have that luxury.
Sad thing is, the fines aren't really harmful at this scale. Any company large enough will just count this as OpEx and in some cases be able to write it off their taxes.
I have nothing against Tesla as a company, love their cars, and want nothing more than for them (as well as EVs in general) to become even more mainstream.
But we as a society have enabled corporations to behave like this and let them get away with crap time and time again only to be hit with fines that add up to a day or two's profits. This has to change.
I have nothing against Tesla as a company, love their cars, and want nothing more than for them (as well as EVs in general) to become even more mainstream.
But we as a society have enabled corporations to behave like this and let them get away with crap time and time again only to be hit with fines that add up to a day or two's profits. This has to change.
This won’t happen until our political class more accurately represents the class and wealth status of average Americans. Until that time, they will continue to be more responsive to the needs of those most similar to themselves.
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> Sad thing is, the fines aren't really harmful at this scale
Technically, they aren’t even fines; there was recently an attempt to pass amendments the NLRB Act which would have allowed fines (IIRC, up to $100,000 per affected employee if wrongful termination was involved, $50,000 otherwise) but it didn’t pass, so all NLRB can do is order make-whole remedies for affected employees.
Technically, they aren’t even fines; there was recently an attempt to pass amendments the NLRB Act which would have allowed fines (IIRC, up to $100,000 per affected employee if wrongful termination was involved, $50,000 otherwise) but it didn’t pass, so all NLRB can do is order make-whole remedies for affected employees.
Vinod Khosla is famously ignoring court and violating CA constitution by restricting beach access. He can just afford to pay fines.
[1] https://www.surfrider.org/coastal-blog/entry/us-supreme-cour...
[1] https://www.surfrider.org/coastal-blog/entry/us-supreme-cour...
Turnabout is fair play; there's no reason for others to respect his (falsely alleged) rights in such a situation.
Yes, individuals and small businesses that break this law get fines, too.
I took Raincom to mean that when individuals and small businesses screw up (not necessarily on this particular issue), the cash flow impact of fines or legal processings is much more severe. Corporate losses are distributed across shareholders and unless the offense is truly egregious the impact on the career growth or fiscal situation of the company's officers tends to be minimal or even non-existent.
The amount is the same though so for large companies it’s just a minor inconvenience
NLRB Act remedies are basically make-whole remedies to the adversely impacted employees. So, yes, small and medium sized companies that harm the same number of employees in the same way as a large company get the same consequences.
Yes, and stealing bread and sleeping under bridges is illegal for both the rich and the poor. It's completely fair.
So, are you saying small businesses shouldn’t be required to make employees whole for harms of the illegal labor practices the business undertakes? Because that’s the only consequence NLRB imposes.
In a previous role, during a performance review, my manager told me I had been awarded a small bonus, but also, "Don't discuss this with your coworkers, we don't do that here." I wasn't planning to, but at the same time I knew he probably shouldn't have said that... But, what can a low level employee do? There's essentially no non-losing move other than to shut up. Saying anything to anyone results in you being labeled a 'problem employee' with no further career prospects at that company as the best case, and quickly managed out at worst.
I actually suggested my VP go read the poster in the breakroom. It was not appreciated, but didn't cause me any real problems. That said we had a functioning HR department that I knew would be happy to explain the law to him, and I certainly don't claim that everyone could get away with this.
A more universal solution is file a complaint with your local Department of Labor (they can keep you anonymous), or if you have the funds, discuss it with a labor lawyer first.
A more universal solution is file a complaint with your local Department of Labor (they can keep you anonymous), or if you have the funds, discuss it with a labor lawyer first.
It sounds like one Tesla location did this for one or two months. I wonder how many Tesla employees were involved in violating the law and if they are still employed.
And how many other companies have similar pending charges.
And how many other companies have similar pending charges.
Telling people not to complain to managers about working conditions is beyond stupid. Managers should field those complaints, or they are flying blind.
So I read the full text of linked law about this - and it makes exactly zero mention about discussing pay. The closest I could find is you can't forbid people from discussing unions.
It would be rather pointless to protect workers' rights to organize without protecting their rights to discuss their compensation.
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It looks like preventing employees from discussing compensation amongst themselves has been historically seen as a transparent attempt to prevent unions from forming, which is illegal.
1. https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/
1. https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/
The rights in section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act are vague, but they are easy to interpret as more expansive than that.
Telling employees they can't discuss pay pretty much directly leads to them not being able to assist each other in getting better terms of employment.
There's also a difference between directing employees to not discuss certain matters during work hours and stating that they can't discuss their pay with other people...
Telling employees they can't discuss pay pretty much directly leads to them not being able to assist each other in getting better terms of employment.
There's also a difference between directing employees to not discuss certain matters during work hours and stating that they can't discuss their pay with other people...
It is also related to laws impacting commerce.
It does lay out the grounds for restricting employees from discussing pay and had been enforced that way. It is worded in a way that has a much larger impact that just unions.
Don’t almost all companies do this?
Here's Tesla firing an employee for union organizing, which is illegal. Guest appearance by a Musk tweet which was also illegal: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/business/musk-labor-board...
Recently Tesla tried to ban pro-union t-shirts. That was illegal. (Also a bit hard to square with Musk's supposed free speech stand.) https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/29/tesla-ban-on-pro-union-shirt...