Loneliness reshapes the brain(quantamagazine.org)
quantamagazine.org
Loneliness reshapes the brain
https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-loneliness-reshapes-the-brain-20230228/
186 comments
My guess is you live in the West. There are other cultures in the world, where there is still a strong sense of informal community. Where you can just walk to a friend or a relative's house unannounced for a cup of tea, without thinking all the time if it would inconvenience them. It feels really amazing to have the option to do that.
I moved to the US (Bay Area) about 10 years ago after having spent much of my youth elsewhere, and to this day, I haven't been able adjust to the lack of informal social interactions compared to where I'm from. I really tried as well to see if it's me who is not able to fit in. However, after a while I realized it's just a cultural difference. It's a way of life that has existed for several decades, which has its own benefits.
To me, US seems like an amazing place when you're in the apprentice/work phase of your life (20 - 45?). However, as I grow older, there are other things I have begun to value more, and one of the top ones is authentic human connection. I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model.
I moved to the US (Bay Area) about 10 years ago after having spent much of my youth elsewhere, and to this day, I haven't been able adjust to the lack of informal social interactions compared to where I'm from. I really tried as well to see if it's me who is not able to fit in. However, after a while I realized it's just a cultural difference. It's a way of life that has existed for several decades, which has its own benefits.
To me, US seems like an amazing place when you're in the apprentice/work phase of your life (20 - 45?). However, as I grow older, there are other things I have begun to value more, and one of the top ones is authentic human connection. I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model.
You're right, I'm from the West. I spent 5 years in Asia in my 20s, which is where a lot of the wisdom comes from. I've lived with Balinese families, and I've spent a lot of time in rural areas in Cambodia, Thailand, and India. I know exactly what you mean when you say informal communities. It was one of the things I spoke about the most to the people around me when I got back.
I could literally turn up at my friends house uninvited and make myself breakfast in the morning or grab some things I need for a long trip. I'd regularly get invited to all kinds of events, weddings, gatherings, and it all culminates in such a flowing state that you really get to enjoy being you as a person. I miss it.
I never had to look for anyone, because from the moment I entered a village to rent a house/apartment, I became part of that community.
I could literally turn up at my friends house uninvited and make myself breakfast in the morning or grab some things I need for a long trip. I'd regularly get invited to all kinds of events, weddings, gatherings, and it all culminates in such a flowing state that you really get to enjoy being you as a person. I miss it.
I never had to look for anyone, because from the moment I entered a village to rent a house/apartment, I became part of that community.
> I could literally turn up at my friends house uninvited and make myself breakfast in the morning or grab some things I need for a long trip.
I think this depends on ages of friends. I am Pakistani who grew up in Saudi Arabia. This was certainly true, I could go to most of my friends homes unannounced. They would be glad that I came and vice versa. Moms will cook fresh meals no matter what time it was.
But it was same in the US, at least, until my late twenties. I could visit my friends unannounced, crash at their place, and vice versa. And it wasn't only immigrant friends. Our group of friends was pretty diverse with all different cultures and backgrounds. Plenty of Americans and Europeans.
It stopped only when we started to get married or got into super serious relationships.
> I'd regularly get invited to all kinds of events, weddings, gatherings
And this can be very tiring. I am really glad that this practice is not common here in the US.
Many times people invite large group of people because it is matter of prestige, not really that they care about their guests. This especially true for weddings and other formal events. Good for wedding industry though.
I think this depends on ages of friends. I am Pakistani who grew up in Saudi Arabia. This was certainly true, I could go to most of my friends homes unannounced. They would be glad that I came and vice versa. Moms will cook fresh meals no matter what time it was.
But it was same in the US, at least, until my late twenties. I could visit my friends unannounced, crash at their place, and vice versa. And it wasn't only immigrant friends. Our group of friends was pretty diverse with all different cultures and backgrounds. Plenty of Americans and Europeans.
It stopped only when we started to get married or got into super serious relationships.
> I'd regularly get invited to all kinds of events, weddings, gatherings
And this can be very tiring. I am really glad that this practice is not common here in the US.
Many times people invite large group of people because it is matter of prestige, not really that they care about their guests. This especially true for weddings and other formal events. Good for wedding industry though.
I attest to this, all true and still is.
I grew up in Saudi Arabia, lived in US for over 13 years, and now back in Saudi.
I grew up in Saudi Arabia, lived in US for over 13 years, and now back in Saudi.
I wonder if there are ways in which part of the same experience can be created here. Social interactions seem to be a primal need for us.
It isn't a culture thing in my experience and it has nothing to do with religion as another user suggested. You can see the same in China where many people are not religious. Or Cuba, people are extremely social there. In the latter case it's by lack of choice. When you have no proper internet access, no money, nothing to watch on TV and nowhere to go for entertainment apart from the town square and your friend's places, it's a no-brainer. So I guess that would be one way to create that experience.
As for China I already see it changing with increasing development. Families are't as big anymore, younger folks all move to the cities for work. The old ones stay behind and are increasingly lonelier. Kids are lonelier too than they used to be. They become less social which increases loneliness of course. It's a vicious cycle.
My idea without having done too much research into it would be encouraging and incentivizing people to return to the villages. It's possible for anyone who can work remotely and those jobs are increasing so it's increasingly viable. Maybe without understanding it, I think many of the lonely people are uprooted. They have nowhere they belong. They just exist but they aren't part of any community.
Btw, this loneliness is also dangerous in another sense because those are the exact targets terror groups and other extremists look for to radicalize online. It's hard to do that with someone with a happy life and good friends they see on a daily basis.
As for China I already see it changing with increasing development. Families are't as big anymore, younger folks all move to the cities for work. The old ones stay behind and are increasingly lonelier. Kids are lonelier too than they used to be. They become less social which increases loneliness of course. It's a vicious cycle.
My idea without having done too much research into it would be encouraging and incentivizing people to return to the villages. It's possible for anyone who can work remotely and those jobs are increasing so it's increasingly viable. Maybe without understanding it, I think many of the lonely people are uprooted. They have nowhere they belong. They just exist but they aren't part of any community.
Btw, this loneliness is also dangerous in another sense because those are the exact targets terror groups and other extremists look for to radicalize online. It's hard to do that with someone with a happy life and good friends they see on a daily basis.
I'm going to be quite honest, but I do believe what holds together the countries I mentioned is their faith, which is Hinduism and Buddhism respectively. And both of these faiths are not widely accepted in the West, but not for reasons most people think. It's a way of life, and requires immense structure to have the support of the citizens who actually live in the said country. And for most of Southeast Asia, it works. It is as clear as the sky above can be.
But as someone already mentioned, what is happening here in the West is definitely making its way in the East towards the new generation. It's phones, it's flashy clothing, materialism. I definitely saw a lot of that too, and many parents I spoke to (which was quite a few over the years) - everyone said the same thing, they're frustrated that the children are going in a direction that bears no fruit for the mind.
But as someone already mentioned, what is happening here in the West is definitely making its way in the East towards the new generation. It's phones, it's flashy clothing, materialism. I definitely saw a lot of that too, and many parents I spoke to (which was quite a few over the years) - everyone said the same thing, they're frustrated that the children are going in a direction that bears no fruit for the mind.
I’m not sure if it’s the specific faith that matters. Much of the sense of community being discussed was provided in the West by Christian churches until recently.
Just requires a shared belief and value system of some sort compatible with building communities.
Just requires a shared belief and value system of some sort compatible with building communities.
I think this atomization, as well as a lot of other things that are distinctive about the West, came about at least partly through Christianity. For example, consider the "unprecedented inner loneliness" that Weber found in Calvinism.
I had the same exact experience while travelling through Southeast Asia for several months a few years ago.
I came to the same conclusions you did, and I'm glad you were able to condense it in such a way.
It frustrated me though, to see that their youth were losing their old ways though. Of course it came with some benefits, but I saw them everywhere staring at their phone screens and could only feel nostalgic.
I came to the same conclusions you did, and I'm glad you were able to condense it in such a way.
It frustrated me though, to see that their youth were losing their old ways though. Of course it came with some benefits, but I saw them everywhere staring at their phone screens and could only feel nostalgic.
I had a similar experience growing up in East Germany, and there it definitely wasn't "faith".
Part of it at least - not sure if I'm qualified to fully analyze it (I'm not) - is how equal we really were. Yes that includes the "rulers". If you look at the house the head of the GDR lived in for decades in the closed-off area for the ruling elites, called Wandlitz, it was nothing special at all. The first journalist who when the wall fell got to report from Wandlitz, a regular GDR citizen, was unimpressed and "not jealous", in his own words. Any craftsman could do better, even in the GDR (I know because my grandfather was one and our house looked better than that of Honecker).
House of Erich Honecker: https://bmg-images.forward-publishing.io/2021/12/04/58cb9e33...
(Yes I know they shot people at the border. That has nothing to do with my point though. - The last time I pointed out that GDR elite at least did not behave like e.g. Ceaușescu in Romania or Putin now and did not try to get rich but actually believed in their mission, somebody complained, but that they used deadly force of arms and surveillance to achieve it does not negate that.)
When the wall came down I was in the middle of the three-year education after the initial mandatory ten years, preparation to study, and we found a partner class of equal level in Bavaria and visited one another even before official reunification. We saw a completely different culture there. Some kids drove a BMW they got for birthday, others had little, there was very little cohesion in their class while ours was a wonderful group. Mind you - my class had an extreme variety of people from all over the GDR because we learned a very popular profession. We had a classmate whose parents were diplomats who lived in Western Europe and all over the world and could travel freely, we had children of workers, and of people high or low in some hierarchy, a grand mix. It did not matter! We were all as one and material differences just did not matter at all, they were tiny to begin with, compared to the vast differences (from our PoV) even among the middle class in the West.
For us too visiting others without any preparations was daily normality. Of course, in the GDR we didn't even have phones at home for many people. My own mother had the chance to get a phone because she was important enough in her job, but she didn't want one to avoid getting called at home... so yeah, you just showed up at someone's home and it was normal.
We also didn't have significant existential pressures. Sure, what education and job exactly you wanted took some effort, but it wasn't even remotely as big a deal to get and to keep one, and to find a home, as it is now.
Yes quality and diversity of stuff you can buy and do is many levels above what we could do now, we wanted the wall gone and reunification for a reason. Also, our environment was in a terrible state, West German did a gigantic and remarkable job cleaning it all up. So, when I say what I did above, I certainly don't vote for reinstating that system, but maybe there is something to learn. It's much more stressful now, and it's hard to say why that is and why we couldn't have at least a look at that part of living in the East.
I also remember quite a few community projects. Lots of people simply got together and did stuff. For example, building a wonderful, amazing and today impossible (too unsafe!) playground, two small valleys with a hundred meters each of various wooden forts and many installations like wooden trains. Or they build several hundred garages together, my father went there too. Or, my grandfather simply spontaneously built a stone wall to support some sandstone wall - on a public stretch of the mountain road. No money was ever involved, nobody got paid. Companies/factories in the area donated machines and materials (I mean, they were people-owned and not private anyway) - serving the people was part of their mission to begin with. All the big companies had to produce some consumer goods too in addition to their normal portfolio, because the GDR was severely lacking those. So, much was born of necessity, but it still had some good parts, the cooperation for example.
It also was much easier to make friends when you went somewhere. I know my parents - certainly not especially gifted in how-to-connect but quite ordinary - easily made friends and even met them later and invited them to visit us at home, and they did, in various vacations. Not just in the GDR, even in Hungary, another East Bloc country, where we went on vacation a few times. It wasn't just once, it was quite a regular occurrence, be it neighbors old and new, or people you just met. For the children it was so easy I don't even need to bother to describe it.
Part of it at least - not sure if I'm qualified to fully analyze it (I'm not) - is how equal we really were. Yes that includes the "rulers". If you look at the house the head of the GDR lived in for decades in the closed-off area for the ruling elites, called Wandlitz, it was nothing special at all. The first journalist who when the wall fell got to report from Wandlitz, a regular GDR citizen, was unimpressed and "not jealous", in his own words. Any craftsman could do better, even in the GDR (I know because my grandfather was one and our house looked better than that of Honecker).
House of Erich Honecker: https://bmg-images.forward-publishing.io/2021/12/04/58cb9e33...
(Yes I know they shot people at the border. That has nothing to do with my point though. - The last time I pointed out that GDR elite at least did not behave like e.g. Ceaușescu in Romania or Putin now and did not try to get rich but actually believed in their mission, somebody complained, but that they used deadly force of arms and surveillance to achieve it does not negate that.)
When the wall came down I was in the middle of the three-year education after the initial mandatory ten years, preparation to study, and we found a partner class of equal level in Bavaria and visited one another even before official reunification. We saw a completely different culture there. Some kids drove a BMW they got for birthday, others had little, there was very little cohesion in their class while ours was a wonderful group. Mind you - my class had an extreme variety of people from all over the GDR because we learned a very popular profession. We had a classmate whose parents were diplomats who lived in Western Europe and all over the world and could travel freely, we had children of workers, and of people high or low in some hierarchy, a grand mix. It did not matter! We were all as one and material differences just did not matter at all, they were tiny to begin with, compared to the vast differences (from our PoV) even among the middle class in the West.
For us too visiting others without any preparations was daily normality. Of course, in the GDR we didn't even have phones at home for many people. My own mother had the chance to get a phone because she was important enough in her job, but she didn't want one to avoid getting called at home... so yeah, you just showed up at someone's home and it was normal.
We also didn't have significant existential pressures. Sure, what education and job exactly you wanted took some effort, but it wasn't even remotely as big a deal to get and to keep one, and to find a home, as it is now.
Yes quality and diversity of stuff you can buy and do is many levels above what we could do now, we wanted the wall gone and reunification for a reason. Also, our environment was in a terrible state, West German did a gigantic and remarkable job cleaning it all up. So, when I say what I did above, I certainly don't vote for reinstating that system, but maybe there is something to learn. It's much more stressful now, and it's hard to say why that is and why we couldn't have at least a look at that part of living in the East.
I also remember quite a few community projects. Lots of people simply got together and did stuff. For example, building a wonderful, amazing and today impossible (too unsafe!) playground, two small valleys with a hundred meters each of various wooden forts and many installations like wooden trains. Or they build several hundred garages together, my father went there too. Or, my grandfather simply spontaneously built a stone wall to support some sandstone wall - on a public stretch of the mountain road. No money was ever involved, nobody got paid. Companies/factories in the area donated machines and materials (I mean, they were people-owned and not private anyway) - serving the people was part of their mission to begin with. All the big companies had to produce some consumer goods too in addition to their normal portfolio, because the GDR was severely lacking those. So, much was born of necessity, but it still had some good parts, the cooperation for example.
It also was much easier to make friends when you went somewhere. I know my parents - certainly not especially gifted in how-to-connect but quite ordinary - easily made friends and even met them later and invited them to visit us at home, and they did, in various vacations. Not just in the GDR, even in Hungary, another East Bloc country, where we went on vacation a few times. It wasn't just once, it was quite a regular occurrence, be it neighbors old and new, or people you just met. For the children it was so easy I don't even need to bother to describe it.
American capitalism is inherently antisocial, and technology serves to accelerate that.
https://www.versobooks.com/books/3965-scorched-earth
https://www.versobooks.com/books/3965-scorched-earth
"A world gained for Technology is lost for Liberty" (Jean-Marie Straub, France Against the Robots).
"Loneliness without God is sheer madness. At least our ravings end in him, and thus we cure our mind and soul. God is a sort of lightning rod. For God is a good conductor of sorrows and disillusions" (Emil Cioran, Tears and Saints).
"Loneliness without God is sheer madness. At least our ravings end in him, and thus we cure our mind and soul. God is a sort of lightning rod. For God is a good conductor of sorrows and disillusions" (Emil Cioran, Tears and Saints).
Beautiful. Thank you.
Is that inherent to capitalism?
America in earlier times was much more community oriented while still being capitalist. But maybe that was tempered by having stronger labor organizations, civic clubs, churches, etc.
America in earlier times was much more community oriented while still being capitalist. But maybe that was tempered by having stronger labor organizations, civic clubs, churches, etc.
It's a wealth thing. You can observe the development live in countries with economies catching up to the more developed countries. The richer societies get in monetary terms the lonelier people get socially. And then depression rises fast.
Note that interestingly this does not affect the elites and mega wealthy as much as regular folks whose more traditional and social lifestyles are disrupted by all the development. The standard pattern would be moving from their rural places where everyone knows each other to a bigger city - in search of riches. Work an office job, live in a concrete box, have fewer spare time, don't really know the neighbors. Work more to pay off the mortgage, because those city properties are expensive. Work more to catch up with rising inflation and prices. Work, work, work...
In the end, yes they might be able to afford a car and iphones and a giant TV and holidays abroad. But all at a cost.
Note that interestingly this does not affect the elites and mega wealthy as much as regular folks whose more traditional and social lifestyles are disrupted by all the development. The standard pattern would be moving from their rural places where everyone knows each other to a bigger city - in search of riches. Work an office job, live in a concrete box, have fewer spare time, don't really know the neighbors. Work more to pay off the mortgage, because those city properties are expensive. Work more to catch up with rising inflation and prices. Work, work, work...
In the end, yes they might be able to afford a car and iphones and a giant TV and holidays abroad. But all at a cost.
No it's more just an American thing. Greater focus on individualism plus nuclear families being the norm as opposed to multigenerational households.
It's made worse by the fact most households cannot afford expenses without both parents working, so children are naturally being left alone more than previous generations.
It's made worse by the fact most households cannot afford expenses without both parents working, so children are naturally being left alone more than previous generations.
Children arw definitely not more alone then before. They are way more supervised then before.
It used to be normal for 6 years old or younger to go to school, Shor or play outside unsupervised. And in poor families both parents frequently needed to work while kids were without adult supervision. Middle and upper class women were stay at home, but their kids could roam around without parents. The helicopter parenting as expectation came in only lately.
It used to be normal for 6 years old or younger to go to school, Shor or play outside unsupervised. And in poor families both parents frequently needed to work while kids were without adult supervision. Middle and upper class women were stay at home, but their kids could roam around without parents. The helicopter parenting as expectation came in only lately.
"Supervised" does not mean "interacting with someone else", it usually means they're locked in a room with an adult. That adult does not have to be engaging them.
> And in poor families both parents frequently needed to work while kids were without adult supervision.
There may be less strictly "poor" families now than there were before, but there are way less families that can afford hiring a nanny or similar.
> And in poor families both parents frequently needed to work while kids were without adult supervision.
There may be less strictly "poor" families now than there were before, but there are way less families that can afford hiring a nanny or similar.
That holds for past too. If anything, expectations on parent actively playing with kids, actively teaching them or doing enriching activities are higher. The do spend less time with friends , but it is not because parents are less engaged with them.
The concept of play date is new. Parents were not organizing kids social lives. The need to drive somewhere to even have a chance on meeting someone is new. They used to bike to meet friends or do what they want. There and many changes like that. I am not saying everything is bad. Kids commit less crimes, gets into serious trouble less often. They get pregnant less, they drink less, they smoke and take drugs less. They are safer and are involved in less accidents. They finish the school more often.
All that is good. But it is simply not true that parents would actively engage with kids less all in all.
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My point here is that kids and teenagers are not lonely because parents don't engage with them. They are lonely because peers don't engage with them. Fairly often they just don't live nearby. Or it is not accepted for kids to go visit them without adult having to tag along. Then they become teenagers and people act shocked they ... continue existing the way they have been raised.
The concept of play date is new. Parents were not organizing kids social lives. The need to drive somewhere to even have a chance on meeting someone is new. They used to bike to meet friends or do what they want. There and many changes like that. I am not saying everything is bad. Kids commit less crimes, gets into serious trouble less often. They get pregnant less, they drink less, they smoke and take drugs less. They are safer and are involved in less accidents. They finish the school more often.
All that is good. But it is simply not true that parents would actively engage with kids less all in all.
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My point here is that kids and teenagers are not lonely because parents don't engage with them. They are lonely because peers don't engage with them. Fairly often they just don't live nearby. Or it is not accepted for kids to go visit them without adult having to tag along. Then they become teenagers and people act shocked they ... continue existing the way they have been raised.
There's this saying, "It takes a village to raise a child." I'd say
> The concept of play date
and
> expectations on parent actively playing with kids, actively teaching them or doing enriching activities are higher
are the result of the erosion of such 'villages'. As you imply the way kids hung out in the past was way more ad-hoc and unrestricted by things like travel time. I think ultimately that was because there was a mindset that people didn't have back then, namely one of perfect planning of all outcomes in regards to raising a kid. I think that too is a symptom of not having villages - how do you plan around 20 different near/family members interacting with your kid? You just kind of accepted that "grandma knows best", "auntie knows words", "Jack will be a good influence", etc.
Basically I'd agree that parents might interact more with their kids, with the caveat that it's due to a decrease in engagement overall.
> The concept of play date
and
> expectations on parent actively playing with kids, actively teaching them or doing enriching activities are higher
are the result of the erosion of such 'villages'. As you imply the way kids hung out in the past was way more ad-hoc and unrestricted by things like travel time. I think ultimately that was because there was a mindset that people didn't have back then, namely one of perfect planning of all outcomes in regards to raising a kid. I think that too is a symptom of not having villages - how do you plan around 20 different near/family members interacting with your kid? You just kind of accepted that "grandma knows best", "auntie knows words", "Jack will be a good influence", etc.
Basically I'd agree that parents might interact more with their kids, with the caveat that it's due to a decrease in engagement overall.
> That holds for past too.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
Lol k I'm not going to debate you on this. It wasn't always the case that both parents worked full time outside the house but you can believe whatever you want.
I think we can say that it's not inherent to capitalism, since there are plenty of capitalist countries without the same issues. It seems to be more about the balance that is struck between capitalist efficiency and social wellbeing. The US is heavy on the efficiency and economic output side of the spectrum. That comes with many benefits, but also major drawbacks.
I think it is. It is a tradeoff of capitalism. Capitalism creates competition, and breeds a certain level of mistrust. It demands hyper-individualism. That's the slant of the system, by design. The only solution, as you mentioned, is periodic tempering. And thus the pendulum swings.
The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community. The individualism lives in the deepest roots of our culture. As a child of immigrants who was born and grew up in the US, I feel the same way you do the older I get and have been seriously considering a move abroad because of it.
Further, it feels like the only basis of a shared culture, our basic political ideals, is now up for question. So if it isn't faith, ethnicity, etc, then what is actually binding us together?
Further, it feels like the only basis of a shared culture, our basic political ideals, is now up for question. So if it isn't faith, ethnicity, etc, then what is actually binding us together?
> The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community.
Not enirely true, many immigrants came for better or better perceived economic opportunities and many continue to have strong but closed communities. Their children, the second generation immigrants allign themselves closer with US culture and values leaving behind communities for more individual values.
Not enirely true, many immigrants came for better or better perceived economic opportunities and many continue to have strong but closed communities. Their children, the second generation immigrants allign themselves closer with US culture and values leaving behind communities for more individual values.
The very act of leaving a community for better economic opportunities abroad is a demonstration of one's relative values, even if there is a hope to eventually reestablish that sense of community at some point.
> The US is a country of immigrants who for the most part came here because they valued the individual over the community
I disagree with that statement, despite agreeing with the following:
> The individualism lives in the deepest roots of our culture.
There's a plethora of reasons people come here: freedom to express themselves, security, financial opportunity because they're literally living in squalor elsewhere, etc. I don't think a majority of people came because they _wanted_ individualism. They wanted to improve their situation and came to a country that had a pretty good marketing spiel.
Also if you look at immigrant communities in the US, they tend to be much closer than ones that have been here for generations (with exceptions). They create the community you claim is rejected when they come to the USA. The most active communities I've witnessed here are the Asian, Hispanic, and African social circles built around the culture that they left behind in their home countries. So I don't think your argument about immigrants leaving = individualism holds.
I disagree with that statement, despite agreeing with the following:
> The individualism lives in the deepest roots of our culture.
There's a plethora of reasons people come here: freedom to express themselves, security, financial opportunity because they're literally living in squalor elsewhere, etc. I don't think a majority of people came because they _wanted_ individualism. They wanted to improve their situation and came to a country that had a pretty good marketing spiel.
Also if you look at immigrant communities in the US, they tend to be much closer than ones that have been here for generations (with exceptions). They create the community you claim is rejected when they come to the USA. The most active communities I've witnessed here are the Asian, Hispanic, and African social circles built around the culture that they left behind in their home countries. So I don't think your argument about immigrants leaving = individualism holds.
"There's a plethora of reasons people come here: freedom to express themselves, security, financial opportunity because they're literally living in squalor elsewhere, etc. I don't think a majority of people came because they _wanted_ individualism. They wanted to improve their situation and came to a country that had a pretty good marketing spiel."
All these reasons are examples of valuing the individual over the community.
All these reasons are examples of valuing the individual over the community.
I disagree, I think you're oversimplifying complex decisions to represent an individual's value system.
I can think the community is more important than the individual, but still leave to protect my children from starvation. Reducing human behavior to any single statement like you have done leaves many factors out, which is why solving these social issues is so insanely difficult.
I can think the community is more important than the individual, but still leave to protect my children from starvation. Reducing human behavior to any single statement like you have done leaves many factors out, which is why solving these social issues is so insanely difficult.
"I can think the community is more important than the individual, but still leave to protect my children from starvation."
You can think that, but your actions demonstrate otherwise. In that scenario, you valued your children's health over remaining within your community. What is special about those specific children? They are yours towards whom you feel a duty you must fulfill as their parent. And yet, there are others who would choose to stay. I'm not passing judgement on either.
You can think that, but your actions demonstrate otherwise. In that scenario, you valued your children's health over remaining within your community. What is special about those specific children? They are yours towards whom you feel a duty you must fulfill as their parent. And yet, there are others who would choose to stay. I'm not passing judgement on either.
> What is special about those specific children?
Ostensibly, they're part of the community. I'd argue it's not impossible, but even necessary, for the needs of a community to align with the needs of an individual. Reducing it to a "You benefit the community xor yourself" binary is engaging with black and white thinking.
Ostensibly, they're part of the community. I'd argue it's not impossible, but even necessary, for the needs of a community to align with the needs of an individual. Reducing it to a "You benefit the community xor yourself" binary is engaging with black and white thinking.
It's very true that the American myth of the triumphant (and embattled) individual is a predominant socio-cultural model. But some of the major immigrant waves came as communities and continued to be so in their diaspora.
"Where you can just walk to a friend or a relative's house unannounced for a cup of tea, without thinking all the time if it would inconvenience them."
I really miss this. I have lived in the US my whole life but my father and much of my family is from the UK. We would always go over other people's houses unannounced when I was young and they always were excited to see us and never inconvenienced. Compare this to my mother's family (born and raised in the US but by Italian immigrants) and it was another story: you had to call ahead and were typically given a time to be in and out.
Fast forward to today, and people think I'm the weird one when I say, let's just "pop in" instead of calling or texting. Except for my parents and sisters, it is completely unheard of to ust pop in or have someone pop in unannounced. My wife gets loads of laughs and shocked expressions when she tells friends and coworkers that me and my family don't call each other ahead of time to visit.
It's a much different society today, but i think (hope?) the more people realize lonliness can (in some ways) be avoided by just visiting each other, I think this trend will reverse itself.
I really miss this. I have lived in the US my whole life but my father and much of my family is from the UK. We would always go over other people's houses unannounced when I was young and they always were excited to see us and never inconvenienced. Compare this to my mother's family (born and raised in the US but by Italian immigrants) and it was another story: you had to call ahead and were typically given a time to be in and out.
Fast forward to today, and people think I'm the weird one when I say, let's just "pop in" instead of calling or texting. Except for my parents and sisters, it is completely unheard of to ust pop in or have someone pop in unannounced. My wife gets loads of laughs and shocked expressions when she tells friends and coworkers that me and my family don't call each other ahead of time to visit.
It's a much different society today, but i think (hope?) the more people realize lonliness can (in some ways) be avoided by just visiting each other, I think this trend will reverse itself.
I really do hope. Sometimes, just short visits help you get a sense of community. And slight inconvenience is ok I feel, it is the cost of building/maintaining a relationship :)
When they said "the future is here, just not evenly distributed" -- it unfortunately applied to social dystopia, just as well as technical advances.
So whatever culture you are from, give it a decade or two and it will likely catch up with the US over this. To see even further into the future, look at Japan.
So whatever culture you are from, give it a decade or two and it will likely catch up with the US over this. To see even further into the future, look at Japan.
It's not clear that the US is actually further in the future in this sense than Western/Northern Europe. Demographically speaking, we are behind them and headed in their direction, so it could well be the case that we will follow suit in de-prioritizing economic growth relative to quality of life and social cohesion. If you look at the political leanings of the younger vs. older generations, it seems reasonably likely.
Japan is also a complex case. While there are the well-known issues with loneliness, suicide, overwork, etc., it also beats the US in most quality of life metrics. It has very high social trust, low inequality, very low crime, affordable housing, universal healthcare, and so on.
Japan is also a complex case. While there are the well-known issues with loneliness, suicide, overwork, etc., it also beats the US in most quality of life metrics. It has very high social trust, low inequality, very low crime, affordable housing, universal healthcare, and so on.
> It has very high social trust, low inequality, very low crime, affordable housing, universal healthcare, and so on.
I wonder how long these metrics will last. Social trust is definitely a new one that's been added after mid 2010s
I wonder how long these metrics will last. Social trust is definitely a new one that's been added after mid 2010s
Even if what you say is true, it's not guaranteed that future societies will forever be in this age of loneliness. Technology has moved fast and there will be growing pains, but I don't see evidence that we are incapable of changing culturally.
These conversations are happening around the world, many people are unhappy living their lives in technological bubbles and many want things to change.
These conversations are happening around the world, many people are unhappy living their lives in technological bubbles and many want things to change.
I do, and I think Neil Postman called it out even in 1992. We've surrendered our culture to technology, and it's going to be dammed hard getting it back. Especially once LLM's can be trained to manipulate you at the deepest psychological levels. We're in for a bumpy ride, and I don't see any way of escaping it.
I heard it said once that the future will arrive at the same time for everyone, but the effects will be unevenly distributed. For the simple fact that 1) some countries are more powerful than others and 2) "effects" to one country can be merely "externalities" to another.
Sure, just to be very clear, I'm not boasting about this. And I do certainly hope that the exact opposite happens as we move forward to the next generation. I'm certainly hopeful.
My parents, who still live in the same small US town I grew up in, still live this way. Relatives who still live in the area, and random friends made over decades, will randomly drop by to say hello.
This is especially good for my Dad, who due to health issues has very restricted mobility. I know his mental health would be much worse without this dynamic.
But in the city where I live, that’s not really possible. Friendly with neighbors and enjoy talking to them, but inviting myself for a tea or coffee isn’t really a thing.
I do have friend groups and support, especially through my church. But it’s not the same as what you describe or what my parents still have.
This is especially good for my Dad, who due to health issues has very restricted mobility. I know his mental health would be much worse without this dynamic.
But in the city where I live, that’s not really possible. Friendly with neighbors and enjoy talking to them, but inviting myself for a tea or coffee isn’t really a thing.
I do have friend groups and support, especially through my church. But it’s not the same as what you describe or what my parents still have.
I grew up in Santa Cruz, went to University over the hill in the Bay Area, and financially had to move away well into my child raising years. I haven't been able to adjust to the lack of informal social interactions where I am now compared to back there.
Crazy to think either 1. Things have changed significantly back home or 2. Moving changes our social networks/relationships. My parents informal community in Santa Cruz was non-existent (we moved there in the late 70s). Mine having grown up there were huge
In Santa Cruz I left my garage unlocked so friends could drop off/pick up their surfboards at all hours (the tide cares nothing about the construct of time). Friends literally coming into our house in the early A.M. unannounced while we slept to get/leave their boards.
Crazy to think either 1. Things have changed significantly back home or 2. Moving changes our social networks/relationships. My parents informal community in Santa Cruz was non-existent (we moved there in the late 70s). Mine having grown up there were huge
In Santa Cruz I left my garage unlocked so friends could drop off/pick up their surfboards at all hours (the tide cares nothing about the construct of time). Friends literally coming into our house in the early A.M. unannounced while we slept to get/leave their boards.
> I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model.
The book "Bowling Alone" [1] make the case that diversity actually increases atomization, rather than increases it. This lines up with casual observation too. As the US has become an increasingly pluralistic country, social capital has diminished remarkably.
[1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bowling_Alone_Revised_a...
The book "Bowling Alone" [1] make the case that diversity actually increases atomization, rather than increases it. This lines up with casual observation too. As the US has become an increasingly pluralistic country, social capital has diminished remarkably.
[1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bowling_Alone_Revised_a...
Out of curiosity, which cultures have this strong sense of informal community? It sounds kind of great.
This is very common in South America, although not as present in large cities. I spend some time in the Maghreb and they also have this trait.
I'd consider south america as part of the west. I'm from Brazil and I'd never just pop in a friend's house without being invited over. I suppose if you live in a small town that could happen. But I do think americans do that in small towns too.
Before the smart phone I think it was less odd to pop in if you were in the area, but with phones, I feel like anywhere I lived people would at the very least send a message.
Before the smart phone I think it was less odd to pop in if you were in the area, but with phones, I feel like anywhere I lived people would at the very least send a message.
Maybe I misremember but the UK seemed more like this in 80s / 90s. The part about just turning up. Not so much th
extended family / weddings type stuff.
I think the mobile phone (original, not just smart phone) killed it to some extent as you would arrange things on the phone and not pop in.
I think the mobile phone (original, not just smart phone) killed it to some extent as you would arrange things on the phone and not pop in.
If you're going back that far, "popping in" was not uncommon in the US either. Yes mobile tech has contributed to reduction in unannounced visits.
With the ability and expectation that you can contact anyone at any time and make or change plans, doing anything unannounced has become unexpected. It used to be much more normal.
With the ability and expectation that you can contact anyone at any time and make or change plans, doing anything unannounced has become unexpected. It used to be much more normal.
Agreed. I grew up in a semi-rural area in the US in the 90s and no one in our community thought twice about just showing up.
This sometimes still happened within the past decade in rural Virginia (my family owned a farm there). Neighbor farmers would stop by once a week or so and just chat, usually still sitting in their truck. Seemed like they were on their way somewhere and saw us outside so they'd pull over to talk.
This sometimes still happened within the past decade in rural Virginia (my family owned a farm there). Neighbor farmers would stop by once a week or so and just chat, usually still sitting in their truck. Seemed like they were on their way somewhere and saw us outside so they'd pull over to talk.
> I moved to the US (Bay Area) about 10 years ago after having spent much of my youth elsewhere, and to this day, I haven't been able adjust to the lack of informal social interactions compared to where I'm from. I really tried as well to see if it's me who is not able to fit
In the same boat. In HS and college, would have somewhat frequent get togethers and then COVID came and ruined it
Idk if the bay area is just like this or if I'm just going through a phase. It's probably just me
In the same boat. In HS and college, would have somewhat frequent get togethers and then COVID came and ruined it
Idk if the bay area is just like this or if I'm just going through a phase. It's probably just me
I would think Bay Area might be better than other places given the diversity. I spent a couple of years in North Carolina before moving here, and that experience was not good for me
> I hope as US becomes more and more diverse, people from other cultures can add the good things they bring, instead of just trying to fit in to the default cultural model.
While I agree on the broader point, there is a bias here that I think is worth noting. There is no inherently good or bad cultural practice in this context. It's just a relative difference that of course if you're not used to it, feels uncomfortable. I think it's not hard to see how the flip scenario is also true, people who grow up with more formal and structured social interactions would feel uncomfortable in a culture that has a different social dynamic.
While I agree on the broader point, there is a bias here that I think is worth noting. There is no inherently good or bad cultural practice in this context. It's just a relative difference that of course if you're not used to it, feels uncomfortable. I think it's not hard to see how the flip scenario is also true, people who grow up with more formal and structured social interactions would feel uncomfortable in a culture that has a different social dynamic.
Having lived in both cultures, I echo this. It's about tradeoffs. The beauty of US individualism is that it allows the space to go within, practice self-inquiry. A side effect that could be loneliness.
> The society we live in shoves loneliness down your throat and goes on to celebrate that.
I primarily blame the Internet (or more generally, online interaction). Aside from little bits of oasis like HN (which, of course, still has no shortage of its own problems), the Internet is a big toxic brew of hate. Sometimes old school hate (racism, etc), but hate over everything else. Hate for people who like Teslas, or iPhones, or pickup trucks, or cars in general, or single family houses, etc. It feels like everyone believes the rest of the world wants to hear them bitch. (yes, here I am, bitching)
No wonder everyone feels lonely, it is hard to get any connection in such an environment.
Sometimes I think it endangers my own sanity, the more I am exposed to it, and I kinda want to /dev/null everything but wikipedia. LOL.
I primarily blame the Internet (or more generally, online interaction). Aside from little bits of oasis like HN (which, of course, still has no shortage of its own problems), the Internet is a big toxic brew of hate. Sometimes old school hate (racism, etc), but hate over everything else. Hate for people who like Teslas, or iPhones, or pickup trucks, or cars in general, or single family houses, etc. It feels like everyone believes the rest of the world wants to hear them bitch. (yes, here I am, bitching)
No wonder everyone feels lonely, it is hard to get any connection in such an environment.
Sometimes I think it endangers my own sanity, the more I am exposed to it, and I kinda want to /dev/null everything but wikipedia. LOL.
I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers.
I have some teenage year family members, and the amount of loneliness symptoms and behaviours I see in 16-18 years olds is staggering. I myself am suffering from it in my 30s, but I grew up in the middle of nowhere and I had more real-life interactions than most teenagers.
Online communication carries a lot of downsides, but the primary one is that is just does not activate the part of the brain that makes you feel like you're hanging out with a human. You know you're talking to a human even behind a screen, but it's just a high-level abstraction that often breaks down and is the reason even the best of people sometimes are total jerkwads online.
I grew up on the net, it gave me my first friends, and now it's making me so bloody lonely I am literally convinced I would feel more socially nourished if I lived in a shed in the woods and went to the city for shopping once a month. And there's just so many people everywhere. It's either your small Discord with the same friends, or social media at large where everyone is a stranger, just an avatar that has little to no impact whatsoever on your life.
I have some teenage year family members, and the amount of loneliness symptoms and behaviours I see in 16-18 years olds is staggering. I myself am suffering from it in my 30s, but I grew up in the middle of nowhere and I had more real-life interactions than most teenagers.
Online communication carries a lot of downsides, but the primary one is that is just does not activate the part of the brain that makes you feel like you're hanging out with a human. You know you're talking to a human even behind a screen, but it's just a high-level abstraction that often breaks down and is the reason even the best of people sometimes are total jerkwads online.
I grew up on the net, it gave me my first friends, and now it's making me so bloody lonely I am literally convinced I would feel more socially nourished if I lived in a shed in the woods and went to the city for shopping once a month. And there's just so many people everywhere. It's either your small Discord with the same friends, or social media at large where everyone is a stranger, just an avatar that has little to no impact whatsoever on your life.
>I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers.
One of the reasons why I absolutely hate QR code menus at restaurants. They make the default state of the table as "phones out." Even in an in-person interaction, the Internet is still necessarily right there.
One of the reasons why I absolutely hate QR code menus at restaurants. They make the default state of the table as "phones out." Even in an in-person interaction, the Internet is still necessarily right there.
I suspect QR code menus and restaurant apps are just conditioning us for a time when they can set the prices on my menu differently from the prices on yours based on income level instead of having to guess at who they can rip off using things like what kind of phone you have or what your zip code is (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/11/17/a-special-p...)
Yeah I hate those. I ask for a menu. If they don't have one, I make the server tell me what they have.
yes, Thats the hill I am willing to die on. I have walked out of restaurants who refused to provide me a physical menu (post covid).
You are not alone brother. Stand firm on that hill!
You get a server? The places I've been to with those expect you to order and pay through their portal. The first time you interact with a person is when your drinks come out.
I can usually make better food at home. I go to restaurants for the service and convenience. If they don’t offer that I go somewhere else that does.
>I blame the Internet for another reason: we're spending so much time online no one has time for face-to-face communication, either with friends or strangers.
That said, meat space interactions are filled with implicit hierarchies, activates power posturing that only manifests online with specific triggers, social and xenophobic anxieties, etc. Just for example, as long as I type in a certain register, you wouldn't be able to premise your response on a set of learned and intuitive behaviors, which not only frees both of us from ourselves in a certain sense, but the conversation as well.
In real life, people implicitly respond to the fact that they're talking to a physically unable person, a Black person, a Trans person, a cis woman, a person they're attracted to, an ESL speaker, etc, and this changes the course of things.
Not to suggest you're advocating for abolition and severe restriction, I take it you're advocating for finding some balance or other. But maybe just to attenuate that search, there's something of value to exclusively online discoursing that is enabling of things that're more difficult to access than in real-life. Obviously the downsides here are trolls/committal toxic behavior.
That said, meat space interactions are filled with implicit hierarchies, activates power posturing that only manifests online with specific triggers, social and xenophobic anxieties, etc. Just for example, as long as I type in a certain register, you wouldn't be able to premise your response on a set of learned and intuitive behaviors, which not only frees both of us from ourselves in a certain sense, but the conversation as well.
In real life, people implicitly respond to the fact that they're talking to a physically unable person, a Black person, a Trans person, a cis woman, a person they're attracted to, an ESL speaker, etc, and this changes the course of things.
Not to suggest you're advocating for abolition and severe restriction, I take it you're advocating for finding some balance or other. But maybe just to attenuate that search, there's something of value to exclusively online discoursing that is enabling of things that're more difficult to access than in real-life. Obviously the downsides here are trolls/committal toxic behavior.
All of that is true, and it’s STILL crucial to have a lot of in person socializing.
That is the painfully learned lesson of the mobile phone and social media. It has led to a catastrophic increase in mental health issues, especially for young people.
That is the painfully learned lesson of the mobile phone and social media. It has led to a catastrophic increase in mental health issues, especially for young people.
> In real life, people implicitly respond to the fact that they're talking to a physically unable person, a Black person, a Trans person, a cis woman, a person they're attracted to, an ESL speaker, etc, and this changes the course of things.
This doesn't change things, this is how it's supposed to work and how we have evolved to thrive with.
I understand that some marginalised groups find it freeing to discuss with someone without having to show their physical presence, but let me stress that that is a change, and a huge one, on how we evolved to communicate and socialise.
There is a non-zero number of terrible people online abusing members of these groups that would be able to feel empathy if they could see that the person in they're talking to is Black, queer or disabled. In fact, I reckon that number of people that would be "nicer" in real life is much larger than you'd expect.
This doesn't change things, this is how it's supposed to work and how we have evolved to thrive with.
I understand that some marginalised groups find it freeing to discuss with someone without having to show their physical presence, but let me stress that that is a change, and a huge one, on how we evolved to communicate and socialise.
There is a non-zero number of terrible people online abusing members of these groups that would be able to feel empathy if they could see that the person in they're talking to is Black, queer or disabled. In fact, I reckon that number of people that would be "nicer" in real life is much larger than you'd expect.
The idea that loneliness can be solved with even more loneliness is an idea so patently American it's hilarious. I know you're being facetious, but part of the hilarity stems from how many others genuinely believe a shed in the woods is the answer to their problems.
Which is part of the problem, people would rather sit idle and do nothing except dream of the ideal isolated state, than to bake some cupcakes and give them to a neighbor, join a book club, participate in more sports, the list goes on and on it's truly endless.
I've found that the loneliness epidemic is not one of loneliness, but of comfort. People do not want to experience discomfort and the inconveniences that are a natural part of social life. It's so much easier to open HN than to message one of your friends from the net and hang out. Why join a class to learn to cook when you can just download an app to order? These conveniences are the source of your loneliness.
Side note, the best people being jerkwads online only stems from two roots: misunderstanding (as text is difficult to grasp), or people wanting to hurt. Yes it's true, even the best of people can want to hurt others, but it's not due to them truly being evil or not knowing the person they're replying to is a real person - it's because they want to share their pain (in unhealthy ways :P). Bullies IRL operate the exact same way.
Also I would like to push back on the idea that online communication does not activate "that part of the brain". There are numerous studies regarding the positive impact of elderly people utilizing the internet, this being used to prevent age related cognitive decline. Games too, widely demonized, have the same positive effect. Switching to a negative light, younger people are drastically more likely to be suicidal the more they use the internet (5+ hours/day). Sources for all of these found here [1].
How can the above paragraph be true if the brain "knows" it's just talking to pixels on a screen? The answer is, our brain doesn't (to some degree, rituals play a big role in why we understand watching a movie = fiction, but hanging out with a friend in a video call = good feelings). This is why it feels good to talk to friends online, but we're missing the externalities involved with in person talk - mobile activity, deeply sharing your interest, gossiping, etc. None of these things have been replicated online beyond superficial methods through VR. These things, while uncomfortable, are crucial to actually reaping the benefits of community.
So get a little uncomfortable!
[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502424/
Which is part of the problem, people would rather sit idle and do nothing except dream of the ideal isolated state, than to bake some cupcakes and give them to a neighbor, join a book club, participate in more sports, the list goes on and on it's truly endless.
I've found that the loneliness epidemic is not one of loneliness, but of comfort. People do not want to experience discomfort and the inconveniences that are a natural part of social life. It's so much easier to open HN than to message one of your friends from the net and hang out. Why join a class to learn to cook when you can just download an app to order? These conveniences are the source of your loneliness.
Side note, the best people being jerkwads online only stems from two roots: misunderstanding (as text is difficult to grasp), or people wanting to hurt. Yes it's true, even the best of people can want to hurt others, but it's not due to them truly being evil or not knowing the person they're replying to is a real person - it's because they want to share their pain (in unhealthy ways :P). Bullies IRL operate the exact same way.
Also I would like to push back on the idea that online communication does not activate "that part of the brain". There are numerous studies regarding the positive impact of elderly people utilizing the internet, this being used to prevent age related cognitive decline. Games too, widely demonized, have the same positive effect. Switching to a negative light, younger people are drastically more likely to be suicidal the more they use the internet (5+ hours/day). Sources for all of these found here [1].
How can the above paragraph be true if the brain "knows" it's just talking to pixels on a screen? The answer is, our brain doesn't (to some degree, rituals play a big role in why we understand watching a movie = fiction, but hanging out with a friend in a video call = good feelings). This is why it feels good to talk to friends online, but we're missing the externalities involved with in person talk - mobile activity, deeply sharing your interest, gossiping, etc. None of these things have been replicated online beyond superficial methods through VR. These things, while uncomfortable, are crucial to actually reaping the benefits of community.
So get a little uncomfortable!
[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502424/
Your retort starts unnecessarily abrasive (I'm not even American), but it has a lot of good arguments.
But let me push back against something implied in your comment: yes, comfort is the cause of many of our social problems, but it's not because we are weak and in the olden days people were willingly choosing pain over comfort.
It is completely natural to choose the easy path. The point is that there was no easy path for most of human history. There was no grocery stores nor free healthcare. There was war, famine and wild beasts. More recently, there was no instantaneous world-wide connection with everybody nor Tinder. Our only choice was discomfort, so we as a species slowly made that better.
So it is easy to create a "get a little uncomfortable" slogan, it would sell a lot of books and self-help classes, but it is not the simple trick no one has thought about before that you think it is.
We are not weak, we have just created a comfortable world, and that has made us weak. We gotta lose one or the other, but in any case we are always missing something. Such is the human condition.
But let me push back against something implied in your comment: yes, comfort is the cause of many of our social problems, but it's not because we are weak and in the olden days people were willingly choosing pain over comfort.
It is completely natural to choose the easy path. The point is that there was no easy path for most of human history. There was no grocery stores nor free healthcare. There was war, famine and wild beasts. More recently, there was no instantaneous world-wide connection with everybody nor Tinder. Our only choice was discomfort, so we as a species slowly made that better.
So it is easy to create a "get a little uncomfortable" slogan, it would sell a lot of books and self-help classes, but it is not the simple trick no one has thought about before that you think it is.
We are not weak, we have just created a comfortable world, and that has made us weak. We gotta lose one or the other, but in any case we are always missing something. Such is the human condition.
Completely agree with your focus on discomfort. Occasional discomfort is an inescapable reality of social life and unfortunately the behavioral norms in America make it very difficult for the average person to develop sufficient tolerance to build deep and meaningful relationships.
Every single aspect of human interaction has been designed to minimize this discomfort which unsurprisingly breeds cynicism, narcissism and distrust. Unfortunately this perspective is firmly embedded in the DNA of the U.S. so its tough to have an honest conversation about it without ethnocentrism / bias coming into the picture.
Every single aspect of human interaction has been designed to minimize this discomfort which unsurprisingly breeds cynicism, narcissism and distrust. Unfortunately this perspective is firmly embedded in the DNA of the U.S. so its tough to have an honest conversation about it without ethnocentrism / bias coming into the picture.
It is still very American to think that a worldwide problem is caused by the US culture and working on it will fix it for everybody.
It is a human and social problem. Disappointment and criticism of the American way is merely another manifestation of American exceptionalism.
It is a human and social problem. Disappointment and criticism of the American way is merely another manifestation of American exceptionalism.
While the outsize role the Internet has come to play in our lives is the source of a lot of problems I'd argue that pre-internet society had problems just as serious, but not as visible.
It was much more of an extravert's world back then, and those who were introverted or otherwise out of beat with society at large had a more difficult time trying to find somewhere to belong. The more socially-charged nature of life could sometimes be overwhelming even for introvert-leaning ambiverts. You didn't hear much about it though, because this group of people by their own nature didn't have a voice, and this was exacerbated by introvert/nerd stereotypes being used for laughs in pop culture.
But things have now clearly swung too far in the other direction. Everybody has a voice (or at least thinks they do) and takes their own opinions as universal fact. I wonder what it'll take to arrive at a happy medium.
It was much more of an extravert's world back then, and those who were introverted or otherwise out of beat with society at large had a more difficult time trying to find somewhere to belong. The more socially-charged nature of life could sometimes be overwhelming even for introvert-leaning ambiverts. You didn't hear much about it though, because this group of people by their own nature didn't have a voice, and this was exacerbated by introvert/nerd stereotypes being used for laughs in pop culture.
But things have now clearly swung too far in the other direction. Everybody has a voice (or at least thinks they do) and takes their own opinions as universal fact. I wonder what it'll take to arrive at a happy medium.
I was having a laugh with my mother the other week, talking about childhood memories and things. I was a pretty mischievous kid when all is said and done. When I was 7 years old, I learned that you can take apart old radios, transformers, and find a lot of copper in them! And back then, you could sell a few hundred grams of copper at the scrapyard for a small fortune!
So the joke was, while we as kids used to do that stuff for real, kids nowadays do it all from their phone...
So the joke was, while we as kids used to do that stuff for real, kids nowadays do it all from their phone...
> So the joke was, while we as kids used to do that stuff for real, kids nowadays do it all from their phone...
They're of course mimicking adults. We're spending tremendous amounts in front of (multiple)screens, and kids tend to get the message.
People take it as a wake-up call to reverse the trend, but I'd argue what the vast majority of otherwise intelligent people happen to be doing should be first taken at face value as a natural evolution, and not the butt of a joke.
I'm saying that as a kid who saw adults on their computers all day long and kinda fault them for blocking me to use one for so long. I definitely see it as a dumb "kids these days" knee jerk reaction on their part that only built more frustration on both sides over the years.
They're of course mimicking adults. We're spending tremendous amounts in front of (multiple)screens, and kids tend to get the message.
People take it as a wake-up call to reverse the trend, but I'd argue what the vast majority of otherwise intelligent people happen to be doing should be first taken at face value as a natural evolution, and not the butt of a joke.
I'm saying that as a kid who saw adults on their computers all day long and kinda fault them for blocking me to use one for so long. I definitely see it as a dumb "kids these days" knee jerk reaction on their part that only built more frustration on both sides over the years.
Is it, though? Yes, hate for something other people love (Teslas in your example) is everywhere, but the most successful places are those that let you regulate that, regulate it for you, or the culture refuses to accept it.
I'll disengage from Twitter when it's too negative and when I return its better, either because the russian trollfarm is sleeping, or Twitter notice I disengaged and works to 'do better'.
I'll disengage from Twitter when it's too negative and when I return its better, either because the russian trollfarm is sleeping, or Twitter notice I disengaged and works to 'do better'.
> the most successful places are those that let you regulate that, regulate it for you, or the culture
Like I said, HN ;-). DanG is a treasure. One need look no farther than Reddit to truly appreciate how valuable a skilled, patient moderator is. But as you say, culture plays a role as well. Probably nothing DanG could do would be enough if the general culture amongst HN users was unwilling to go along.
Your second point is also a good one, I think. Perhaps the toxic nature of the Internet can be mitigated effectively by remembering to take a break and disconnect the feedback loop.
Like I said, HN ;-). DanG is a treasure. One need look no farther than Reddit to truly appreciate how valuable a skilled, patient moderator is. But as you say, culture plays a role as well. Probably nothing DanG could do would be enough if the general culture amongst HN users was unwilling to go along.
Your second point is also a good one, I think. Perhaps the toxic nature of the Internet can be mitigated effectively by remembering to take a break and disconnect the feedback loop.
Wikipedia is an hate filled cesspool where literal war is being waged, day in day out, year after year. If you don’t understand that, I’m guessing you don’t view the history or talk sections, which makes you a uniformed user, and arguably quite naive about how the internet works, and because of that also naive about current events. There is some good stuff on Wikipedia still, but it’s heading in the same direction as everything else. The center does not hold.
My gut says you did not intend for this to be a textbook example of what I was referring to.
I would ask that in the future you get to know me a little better before you call me a dipshit. I have only been doing the online thing since the 80s, so there are plenty of things I have yet to learn. Thankfully I have finally forgotten how to configure UUCP, though.
I would ask that in the future you get to know me a little better before you call me a dipshit. I have only been doing the online thing since the 80s, so there are plenty of things I have yet to learn. Thankfully I have finally forgotten how to configure UUCP, though.
You’re correct it was a stupid post on my part. I would delete it if I could. My emotions got the better of me. I’m frustrated by the decline of Wikipedia and used your post as a chance to air that frustration. I do apologize and I’m sure you understand that my post will taken by most people as a stupid, emotional rant rather than any reasonable statement about your intelligence.
No big deal, though I'm happy that you walked it back. I'm not immune to making ill-advised comments online myself. More often than I'd care to admit, even on HN.
I did think wikipedia might be a controversial choice in my original post, but decided to run with it -- I was trying to convey a thought, not necessarily a literal plan. I understand wikipedia is edited by humans, and not all of them are acting in good faith. But at the same time, I like to think of deep diving into wikipedia reading articles on science, or animals, or other generally non-controversial topics is perhaps one of the most rewarding uses of the Internet. It's that little remnant of the original dream of putting knowledge in the hands of everyone.
I did think wikipedia might be a controversial choice in my original post, but decided to run with it -- I was trying to convey a thought, not necessarily a literal plan. I understand wikipedia is edited by humans, and not all of them are acting in good faith. But at the same time, I like to think of deep diving into wikipedia reading articles on science, or animals, or other generally non-controversial topics is perhaps one of the most rewarding uses of the Internet. It's that little remnant of the original dream of putting knowledge in the hands of everyone.
There are aspects of modern life that make it harder to make and keep friends as an adult but the biggest genuinely life changing lesson I learned is that every adult wants friends but struggles to make them. And you know what that dynamic means? You can walk up to a random adult and literally say and I quote "you seem cool, wanna be friends?" like you're on a schoolyard playground and it works.
I accidentally texted a coworker (who I have never hung out with socially) who has the same name as one of my friends if she wanted to go to a music festival with me (like 5 days close quarters camping) and she said yes without hesitation. I met another girl at a party -- I knew of her because she was a friend's friend's ex but never actually talked to her. I just declared that we were best friends, we got drunk, and skipped out at the party to hang out/meet her other friends. She's my maid of honor. Met a guy during a charity scavenger hunt where the theme was to do mildly embarrassing things in public we hit it off after I had him take a picture of me licking a bronze statue's butt. I'm now in his softball league. I met a woman on a cruise after rescuing her son from the on-deck ropes course when a huge storm hit, we live super far away but play animal crossing together.
I went from "oh no without school it's gonna be impossible to make friends" to "no actually this is a million times easier." All the stuff that makes you uncool as a teenager makes you interesting as an adult.
I accidentally texted a coworker (who I have never hung out with socially) who has the same name as one of my friends if she wanted to go to a music festival with me (like 5 days close quarters camping) and she said yes without hesitation. I met another girl at a party -- I knew of her because she was a friend's friend's ex but never actually talked to her. I just declared that we were best friends, we got drunk, and skipped out at the party to hang out/meet her other friends. She's my maid of honor. Met a guy during a charity scavenger hunt where the theme was to do mildly embarrassing things in public we hit it off after I had him take a picture of me licking a bronze statue's butt. I'm now in his softball league. I met a woman on a cruise after rescuing her son from the on-deck ropes course when a huge storm hit, we live super far away but play animal crossing together.
I went from "oh no without school it's gonna be impossible to make friends" to "no actually this is a million times easier." All the stuff that makes you uncool as a teenager makes you interesting as an adult.
"Maid of honor" suggests you identify as a woman. Experience suggests that women (at least in the US) have richer and more fluid social lives. I can easily find a good handful of "girls hanging out" social groups on Meetup in my relatively socially impoverished suburb. I suspect that my luck approaching random dudes with giant headphones on, staring intently at their laptop screens in a Starbucks will be pretty different.
Yeah, while both genders can certainly experience and have loneliness, it's massively more an endemic issue in males.
What I noticed is that doing something for social reasons is literally stigmatized in male dominated groups especially when it is online and has a lot if Amerucans in it. I am woman that spend a lot of my time in male dominated tech hobbies and profession.
The messages I absorbed when young roughly said that if you code on Christmas instead of socializing with family, then you are true programmer. A lot of the gatekeeping of hobbies against newbies is all bout checking who is "true fan". And true fans are not social. Are you here cause friends invited you to be with them? That is wrong. Did you came with open mind, zero knowledge and intention to socialize? That is wrong too. Did you became interested because of friends? That is wrong too. You should not be interested in things because anything social. It is not pure enough.
But among people IRL who socialize a lot, including males, they get interested in what others do. They change activities to where people are. They engage in a lot of give and take "I accompany you to your thing and you go to mine".
The messages I absorbed when young roughly said that if you code on Christmas instead of socializing with family, then you are true programmer. A lot of the gatekeeping of hobbies against newbies is all bout checking who is "true fan". And true fans are not social. Are you here cause friends invited you to be with them? That is wrong. Did you came with open mind, zero knowledge and intention to socialize? That is wrong too. Did you became interested because of friends? That is wrong too. You should not be interested in things because anything social. It is not pure enough.
But among people IRL who socialize a lot, including males, they get interested in what others do. They change activities to where people are. They engage in a lot of give and take "I accompany you to your thing and you go to mine".
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When i see old cultures living in semi isolated places, doing simple stuff, and rituals in family group and carrying tradition, i think they've hit peak existence.
to tack on, I personally feel conquering this existential loneliness is an empowerment and growth exercise. Not necessary but creates a rather clear perception of the world, with deeper meanings and vision therein
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When I was in my early 20s I was on a weird night shift for work, so I didn’t do anything outside. I only talked a bit to some coworkers, and everyone on the internet was sleeping when I was awake. Additionally I never saw the sun during the winter months.
I started developing really bad paranoia, and began hearing voices in my dreams. Like random fabricated female/male voices having unintelligible conversations. So yeah I was going literally crazy. I’m not surprised at all that my brain was probably physically decaying.
I started developing really bad paranoia, and began hearing voices in my dreams. Like random fabricated female/male voices having unintelligible conversations. So yeah I was going literally crazy. I’m not surprised at all that my brain was probably physically decaying.
During the initial covid lockdown I lived alone. I didn't see another person face to face from the first week of March 2020 til the end of May. In the grand scheme of things it wasn't that long but by the end of that period of time I was experiencing mild hallucinations the majority of the time. I saw things moving in my peripheral vision that weren't really there and I frequently heard what I thought was music playing, but when I went to investigate it it would just be some very minor environmental noise like a tree branch scraping the side of my apartment building. I completely believe that isolation does weird things to your brain. I'm glad I didn't have to experience it any longer than that!
This is so weird to me. My life has gone bad, and I've spent close to a decade in social isolation, often many months at a time. While I'm definitely not fine, it's weird to read about how badly much shorter and less intense experiences affect people.
I got stuck in a severe lockdown of about 5 months. No hallucinations.
Can sort of understand how that might happen, seems similar to being marooned on an island. I had something like that happen to me as well but only for two days where it was touch and go, perhaps that prepared me for covid.
Worth considering what kind of mentality is necessary to survive in such situations and whether you can adopt it when you notice the start of the spiral.
This is written with empathy. In case of any future lockdowns or life curveballs.
Can sort of understand how that might happen, seems similar to being marooned on an island. I had something like that happen to me as well but only for two days where it was touch and go, perhaps that prepared me for covid.
Worth considering what kind of mentality is necessary to survive in such situations and whether you can adopt it when you notice the start of the spiral.
This is written with empathy. In case of any future lockdowns or life curveballs.
I live like this right now. I'll sometimes smell someone cooking things? No, not toast ;)
In solitary in prison it would get to the point I could look at the paint texture on the walls and see everything from a simple face to whole landscapes. The one thing I never saw was words or even letters.
In solitary in prison it would get to the point I could look at the paint texture on the walls and see everything from a simple face to whole landscapes. The one thing I never saw was words or even letters.
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Paranoia is a side effect of the brain repairing ones self-esteem. The world is ignoring you, you are more unimportant then ever and totally social isolated (night shift or service jobs in other countries does that to you). But at least, important government organizations and conspiracies are out to get you.
Guess the next chance to really connect with people will be, when we all meet at the server farm to burn this nightmare down.
Guess the next chance to really connect with people will be, when we all meet at the server farm to burn this nightmare down.
Struggling with loneliness for the first time in my life, at the moment. My core group of friends, whom I've known for 25+ years, all each had a kid in the space of a year. The pandemic made keeping those friendships alive difficult, but the kids turned it up a notch. I was gaslighting myself for a while that they were just busy, but when I heard about a couple of social things that I wasn't invited to, I realised that the friendships weren't on hold, they were hanging up. As an experiment, I stepped back and started to match the effort they were putting in and sadly I haven't spoken to some in months, some years. Working remotely, I need to make a real effort to maintain some social element in my life but having lost this core group of friends has been a huge blow; I have pretty regular dreams about it. Stoked to learn my brain is atrophying as a result!
> I was gaslighting myself for a while that they were just busy, but when I heard about a couple of social things that I wasn't invited to, I realised that the friendships weren't on hold, they were hanging up.
I feel this. It's incredibly painful to make that kind of realization and it's hard not to be resentful about it
This happened to me and I was bitter about it for about 2 years, should've been in counseling but didn't even realize I was bitter
I feel this. It's incredibly painful to make that kind of realization and it's hard not to be resentful about it
This happened to me and I was bitter about it for about 2 years, should've been in counseling but didn't even realize I was bitter
Sorry you experienced something similar. It sure is unpleasant. I can feel the bitterness but I don't think I'm ready to admit I can't work through it myself. Hope things are on the up for you.
"Work through it myself" is almost a contradiction in this case. Definitely look into getting some form of counseling you can afford.
Another thing you can do in parallel is reaching out to other friends/acquaintances you might have lost touch with. Tell them honestly what you appreciate about them and that you'd like to revive the friendship.
In both cases you'll feel awkward and uncertain. It's normal. Also, don't expect any single relationship to fulfill your unmet needs. But making yourself vulnerable to others is the beginning of "working through it yourself".
Another thing you can do in parallel is reaching out to other friends/acquaintances you might have lost touch with. Tell them honestly what you appreciate about them and that you'd like to revive the friendship.
In both cases you'll feel awkward and uncertain. It's normal. Also, don't expect any single relationship to fulfill your unmet needs. But making yourself vulnerable to others is the beginning of "working through it yourself".
> I stepped back and started to match the effort they were putting in
How did you do it? Have you created an Excel spreadsheet and questioned them about their degree of effort, which you then compared to your level of effort? You added everything up and your column was higher than their column?
I went through this approximately a year before you. Loneliness in this period is caused by your slow response to external change, as well as life telling you to make a life for yourself.
How did you do it? Have you created an Excel spreadsheet and questioned them about their degree of effort, which you then compared to your level of effort? You added everything up and your column was higher than their column?
I went through this approximately a year before you. Loneliness in this period is caused by your slow response to external change, as well as life telling you to make a life for yourself.
It annoys me that this article keeps equating being alone to loneliness. Not everyone feels lonely while alone for extended periods of time. I can spend months alone and never feel lonely.
> It annoys me that this article keeps equating being alone to loneliness.
It doesn't: "Social isolation, a related condition, is different — it’s an objective measure of how few relationships a person has. The experience of loneliness has to be self-reported"
It doesn't: "Social isolation, a related condition, is different — it’s an objective measure of how few relationships a person has. The experience of loneliness has to be self-reported"
It does...
It states that yes; ironically, it also uses them interchangeably multiple times throughout the article.
It states that yes; ironically, it also uses them interchangeably multiple times throughout the article.
The next article from Quanta I see that's not at least this sloppy will be the first. It requires a good deal of critique in the reading to extract anything of value.
I'm a bit like you, I do like my time being alone and I almost never feel lonely.
But I also know people who do silly things when facing the fear of being alone. For them, perhaps being alone equals to loneliness. For sure, it makes them suffer.
But I also know people who do silly things when facing the fear of being alone. For them, perhaps being alone equals to loneliness. For sure, it makes them suffer.
Exactly, the two are quite different. I have felt very lonely when at home with a romantic partner in a bad relationship. At other times, I have felt no loneliness while in the wilderness by myself for extended time periods, knowing I have a great network of friends, family, and a supportive partner whenever I need them.
When you say you can spend months alone, do you mean literally alone - not interacting with anyone during that time at all?
I used to do it a lot in the military, months alone in a server room on a ship, eating alone because I'm working nights. This might sound like a nightmare to some but it's my most extreme example and I loved it. Honestly, it's relaxing not having to deal with people's problems all the time. I deal with people very frequently in my current role and I miss the peace and quiet.
Most psychologists will tell you "we're very social creatures" but I was VERY social for so long that now it just feels like a waste of my time. People are quick to throw their problems on everyone around them, I get tired of the neediness, the games people play, the ego trips, all of it. It's sort of like a been there, done that, not interested anymore.
Most psychologists will tell you "we're very social creatures" but I was VERY social for so long that now it just feels like a waste of my time. People are quick to throw their problems on everyone around them, I get tired of the neediness, the games people play, the ego trips, all of it. It's sort of like a been there, done that, not interested anymore.
That is being alone, without really being alone. I like it, too. I find it relaxing to know everyone is around, but also not have to interact directly with anyone individually.
That's an interesting point, I didn't think about that. That probably contributes to a positive experience for some.
I would say they mean minimal interaction: going to the supermarket and say 'Thanks' to the cashier and things like that...
sometimes minimal, sometimes absolute zero
I think what you're talking about is "solitude", which is a kind of inverse of loneliness in that gives you a kind of inner strength rather than taking health away.
And some people can be with others and still feel lonely.
Like everything in nature, socializing has a function, and it has been increasingly eroded by technology. Even a few thousand years ago it was the deciding survival factor. As we move deeper into the information age, it seems more and more inconsequential. In my own life, a broader social circle has mostly proven to be at best good entertainment, at worse it can hurt you, but usually is just wasted time. You meet people, learn their incredibly mundane and predictable lives (not excluding myself here), and then life happens and you don't see them ever again, or at least not enough to make a difference.
Having a social network of people to constantly talk to is not needed unless we go back a few thousand years in time... which, to be fair, could happen with some global catastrophe, however if civilization keeps going, I think socializing will be about sharing thoughts, and not so much about physical proximity.
Having a social network of people to constantly talk to is not needed unless we go back a few thousand years in time... which, to be fair, could happen with some global catastrophe, however if civilization keeps going, I think socializing will be about sharing thoughts, and not so much about physical proximity.
Yeah I think I'm done with this website after reading this
Seriously. What a depressing and dehumanizing view of the world. I moved away from my entire social circle two years ago, and it's been extremely rough. I knew people here when moving, and have made good friends, but it's not the same. I miss the deep interactions and just the shared experiences I had with all my friends back home - I seriously consider moving back pretty much every single day because of it. Discord and other messaging apps are nothing but a simulacrum of actual interaction. Physical interaction is what matters; I've become more and more convinced of that recently - and more and more Luddite because of it. But the real world is physical, not digital, and I think too many people forget that. Shame very few others seem to view this and keep pushing for tech that'll make us more and more disconnected for little upside (looking at you, chatbots).
Deep, in person social connection is a must and I truly question whether the GP is as well off without it as they think they are.
Deep, in person social connection is a must and I truly question whether the GP is as well off without it as they think they are.
Sometimes I noticed is that if I spend too long alone, and I can walk in nature, it fills a kind of social need. Nature is lively. By the time you finished exploring the surrounding you're ready to enjoy your cave again.
While the article is super interesting and talks about many different scientific finding I think there's an excerpt that's really important to pay attention to:
> Of course, the chicken-and-egg question about all these findings is: Do differences in the brain predispose us to loneliness, or does loneliness rewire and shrink the brain? According to Bzdok, it’s not currently possible to solve this puzzle. He believes, however, that the causality may point both ways.
This is one of the downsides of losing our religion (REM has entered the chat). Churches used to provide a community for people to combat loneliness. We've replaced this sense of community with... well, nothing really.
Not just losing religion, but losing every source of shared purpose that people have historically relied upon. Religion is bad. Having kids is increasingly looked down upon. People are losing any and all sense of professional duty.
And yet, no alternatives have been offered.
And yet, no alternatives have been offered.
Having kids is a neutral life choice, so I don't want to say one thing or another there. But, to any potential parents out there: please don't have kids because you're lonely. Its not a healthy context for a child to grow up as a partial remedy for their parents' problems.
If it is just a case of people losing their religion, then people would be substituting their time with secular communal activities like bowling leagues or freemasonry. Instead everyone just became a shut in. I believe the real reasons run much deeper
They have very much done that with Marvel characters and Twitch streamers. Relationship with a personal god is only the most parasocial relationship, but there are many flavors of this. I have noticed that among many peoples with regular access to TV and the internet, small talk often veers toward the consumption of popular culture and various impressions and opinions about those consumption products.
Religion is a mythic lens through which to view reality, a framework of archetypes to superimpose on a chaotic world, to make it feel more comprehensible, and thus safer. For many they can reach a sense of safety by communing with others about the recognizable values and behaviors of their favorite fictional characters.
Now you don't even have to know the people you're talking to, because you can assemble in pseudonymous fanbase forums to find that community. You see it in everything from K-pop Twitter to Star Wars reddit.
Religion is a mythic lens through which to view reality, a framework of archetypes to superimpose on a chaotic world, to make it feel more comprehensible, and thus safer. For many they can reach a sense of safety by communing with others about the recognizable values and behaviors of their favorite fictional characters.
Now you don't even have to know the people you're talking to, because you can assemble in pseudonymous fanbase forums to find that community. You see it in everything from K-pop Twitter to Star Wars reddit.
But, are online interactions really the equivalent of in person interactions? I’m not a psychologist, but my gut feeling is, no.
No, they are not. But to the lonely, it's all they have access to, so they make do. It results in a self-reinforcing loop.
To me, the difference between the two is analogous to the difference between fluorescent light and sunlight.
This is a thread about social sickness, and I think the conflation here identified is close to the root of our problems, likely compounded by the sedentarity and lack of sunlight that comes with the consumption-based lifestyle.
That being said, what alternatives does anyone have nowadays? If you're a mile deep into a subdivision and you haven't yet earned your driver's license, good luck getting any meaningful socialization outside of video games, chat servers, and comments sections. This creates patterns of behavior in early life and adolescence that ossify into your default lifestyle habits into your old age. By now enough longitudinal studies have been done to know "your personality develops when you're a teenager" is a reasonable heuristic for understanding the inertia of the problem.
To me, the difference between the two is analogous to the difference between fluorescent light and sunlight.
This is a thread about social sickness, and I think the conflation here identified is close to the root of our problems, likely compounded by the sedentarity and lack of sunlight that comes with the consumption-based lifestyle.
That being said, what alternatives does anyone have nowadays? If you're a mile deep into a subdivision and you haven't yet earned your driver's license, good luck getting any meaningful socialization outside of video games, chat servers, and comments sections. This creates patterns of behavior in early life and adolescence that ossify into your default lifestyle habits into your old age. By now enough longitudinal studies have been done to know "your personality develops when you're a teenager" is a reasonable heuristic for understanding the inertia of the problem.
The author of the Sound of Silence described this eerie society well:
... And the people bowed and prayed To the neon god they made And the sign flashed out its warning In the words that it was forming And the sign said, "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls In tenement halls" And whispered in the sounds of silence
... And the people bowed and prayed To the neon god they made And the sign flashed out its warning In the words that it was forming And the sign said, "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls In tenement halls" And whispered in the sounds of silence
'The Third Place' is an interesting theory related to this stuff. Can certainly see how the decline of the third place fits in with a lot of the comments here.
The 2000 book "Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community" by Robert Putnam goes into some detail on this topic:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Bowling_Alone.html?id=r...
https://books.google.com/books/about/Bowling_Alone.html?id=r...
Every day that goes by, Wallace's Infinite Jest becomes truer and truer.
The thesis of the book is that modern entertainments just make it easier to be alone.
The thesis of the book is that modern entertainments just make it easier to be alone.
The studies linking loneliness (as in aloneness) with blood pressure need to be corroborated with more systematic studies. There is certainly a bias to consider socializing as something pleasant but often it is not. For people who are OK being alone, it's actually mostly other people that are the stressors, not alone-ness
https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-maga...
https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-maga...
This isn’t a very useful discussion without reference to displacement, geographically and socially. When we compare our atomized society to others and note the contrast, rarely to we correctly pinpoint the cause of the atomization. It’s very obvious, displacement and cultural change are the root cause. Humans benefit from homeostasis. If they have homeostasis they will optimize culture for human needs and the common good. Disruption to that homeostasis brings a number of ills, isolation being just one of many.
Isn't atomization simply a consequence of the Internet? People go out less because they can use social media and Netflix, which doesn't make us as happy.
A few suggestions to counter how lonely modern society can be. (1) If you're religious, get as involved as much as possible with your community, if you aren't, but are kind of searching, and not opposed to organised religion, try going to various religious events see what people believe and if its for you. (2) Learn, or pick back up, a musical instrument and join an amateur group - anything from formal e:g local wind band / brass band / orchestra , to an informal band, advertising for a member at guitar shop or online. If you can't find anything, place an ad yourself, people will reply for sure (3) Volunteer. e:g Feeding homeless Or get involved in some community thing or positive local politics, making locality better, possibly environmental activism of a kind even if just getting some trees planted to improve an area, (4) Avoid living in posh places where people are "aspirational" , where managers live, (this is not a problem for people who can't afford that in the first place ;) ) instead live somewhere with more soul, more blue collar, where people need each other more, reach out to each other more, have jobs that are more about serving others than "using" them. Just my 2p, YMMV.
Lockdowns were a severe mistake and we are still paying for it.
> social isolation and environmental monotony
So not just loneliness, but boredom in general.
So not just loneliness, but boredom in general.
This magazine seems to come up on the front page nearly every day.
I find it to be uneven in how and what it covers.
If it is a subject matter on which I have some actual knowledge
sometimes I learn something, but more often I am disappointed.
I think loneliness is a choice except for exceptions.
I've read all kinds of things about California and how shallow it is, and especially in Los Angeles. I think the people who say this must be meeting different people than I do, or trying to meet different people. They want to meet high-end celebrities and just get pushed off or whatever.
I know auto mechanics, plumbers, financial planners, accountants, programmers, retail clerks, manufacturing plant managers, teachers. All of them are exactly like they would be in any other state. They don't sit around trying to sell a script to Hollywood studios, or try to get into acting. Plumbers are plumbers.
I had a GREAT group of hikers I used to hike with - friendly and down-to-earth and real.
But, I have to go out and FORCE myself to meet people. It's not like high school or university where you are surrounded by everyone your own age, and all you have to do is show up and there's a group there for at schools.
I've gone to computer groups meetings, business group meetings, and all kinds of groups. But I have to get my ass out and go. It kinda sucks to get off my ass and motivated, but what else can ya do?
Some groups did suck, I must say, but I just got out of them and go to other ones that turns out great.
Loneliness is a choice.
I guess if you lived on a farm and the nearest neighbor was 30 miles away, that would be different, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
I've read all kinds of things about California and how shallow it is, and especially in Los Angeles. I think the people who say this must be meeting different people than I do, or trying to meet different people. They want to meet high-end celebrities and just get pushed off or whatever.
I know auto mechanics, plumbers, financial planners, accountants, programmers, retail clerks, manufacturing plant managers, teachers. All of them are exactly like they would be in any other state. They don't sit around trying to sell a script to Hollywood studios, or try to get into acting. Plumbers are plumbers.
I had a GREAT group of hikers I used to hike with - friendly and down-to-earth and real.
But, I have to go out and FORCE myself to meet people. It's not like high school or university where you are surrounded by everyone your own age, and all you have to do is show up and there's a group there for at schools.
I've gone to computer groups meetings, business group meetings, and all kinds of groups. But I have to get my ass out and go. It kinda sucks to get off my ass and motivated, but what else can ya do?
Some groups did suck, I must say, but I just got out of them and go to other ones that turns out great.
Loneliness is a choice.
I guess if you lived on a farm and the nearest neighbor was 30 miles away, that would be different, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
There a lot of natural stimuli missing ('environmental monotony') in an artificial Antarctic station's winter. Article didn't seem to address how factors like 'monotony' were distinguished from 'social isolation' (with 7 colleagues) as causal to brain changes ('lost prefrontal volume') in Neumayer.
The headline is a stretch ... there are millions of less-privileged people living in Siberia and northern Canada who survive endless harsh winters 'living off the land' in a natural environment with only a few people near them ... how 'reshaped' are their brains?
The headline is a stretch ... there are millions of less-privileged people living in Siberia and northern Canada who survive endless harsh winters 'living off the land' in a natural environment with only a few people near them ... how 'reshaped' are their brains?
Living reshapes the brain.
>In behavioral studies, lonely people picked up on negative social signals, such as images of rejection, within 120 milliseconds — twice as quickly as people with satisfying relationships and in less than half the time it takes to blink.
Depression smells like a significant confounding factor here. Indeed, the article may be re-written "depression reshapes the brain", which, like, yeah, ok.
Depression smells like a significant confounding factor here. Indeed, the article may be re-written "depression reshapes the brain", which, like, yeah, ok.
It has messed with me pretty badly. I’m trying to change my life to get out of the hole I find myself in, but it’s really difficult.
Keep your head up fam. You've got value and the right people will see it!
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Well I'm fucked
Hard not feel like shit. Yesterday there was an article on reddit about how so many young men are single and sexless, which is certainly true for me, going on 5 years. In addition to the loneliness. Feels like an epidemic.
Make your life an RPG. Begin by greeting strangers and creating a list of small goals that gradually increase in complexity till having sex. If you require assistance, please include your email address in your profile.
Moved to the US many years ago after living in Asia and in Europe and I've struggled the most here in making friends and meeting new people.
I thought it was me and even moved to a bigger city in the US and still find it hard to make meaningful connection with anyone.
Like others mentioned maybe it's the American capitalism, or internet. I think also maybe cars (greater distance, individual travel, road rage, etc.) influence in how we feel lonely but still surrounded by people.
No mention of how this might not apply to those of us that are naturally introverted and didn't really have a "loneliness" problem.
Can they just not pill up the chemicals used in social interactions? Cure your loneliness the modern way!
And what's the best thing to do about it, if you are socially excluded and cannot move out in the short term?
Are we lonely if we are on HN?
I'm still embarrassed to say "My online friends", but they've often had a huge impact on my life.
A meme from totally random stranger teaches you more about life than a close physical friend.
That's my secret. I'm always lonely.
You merely adopted the loneliness, I was born in it :-(
In general, we have a lot of interactions online, but unfortunately those do not have the positive effects physical contacts have.
On HN we are normally not even "online friends" with specific other users. The users are identifiable just as some little grey nickname. Who even is this "GalenErso" guy? Or "cubefox"? What are they up to? We might as well all post anonymously, the outcome would basically be the same.
That's not a natural way to interact, no wonder the brain breaks a little if it does not much else.
On HN we are normally not even "online friends" with specific other users. The users are identifiable just as some little grey nickname. Who even is this "GalenErso" guy? Or "cubefox"? What are they up to? We might as well all post anonymously, the outcome would basically be the same.
That's not a natural way to interact, no wonder the brain breaks a little if it does not much else.
Not to mention that HN has specific technological countermeasures to prevent genuine conversations between two users from developing. Specifically, the response rate limiter and the absence of a response awareness or notification system.
In the old days, forums often had attached chatrooms. Forum people could hang out there and just do small talk. It seems every forum today, every subreddit, should have a chat room. Still, even this is not nearly as healthy as meeting people face to face.
Also no DMs (unless you have > X karma?)
Only being in the presence of others makes one feel a little bit less alone. The presence being digital makes it less effective in some ways but it still counts for something. Imagine not even having anyone to exchange a few likeminded thoughts with… HN, being a quite varied community could facilitate that for most.
But we indeed do need more than this for a fulfilling life. Lonelinese could as well be temporary and one could feel less alone in different ways.
But we indeed do need more than this for a fulfilling life. Lonelinese could as well be temporary and one could feel less alone in different ways.
If it’s your only social outlet, yes.
Yes
Loneliness is not a phase.
loneliness and solitude are two different things.
any prolonged experience or activity shapes the brain ... duh
scary to think how it has an actual physical outcome
No one is perfect. Having shitty friends is better than no friends.
>In one experiment conducted in Switzerland, after volunteers took psilocybin, the psychoactive compound in magic mushrooms, they reported feeling less socially excluded.
>lonely people tend to focus excessively on unpleasant social cues, such as being ignored by others
take mushrooms help fight the epidemic of victim mentality ;)
>lonely people tend to focus excessively on unpleasant social cues, such as being ignored by others
take mushrooms help fight the epidemic of victim mentality ;)
hehe I wish~
This comports with this study I saw recently.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-022-01453-0
And yet in the name of "safety" and "protection" our betters forced isolation on everyone, and we are reaping the results.
And yet in the name of "safety" and "protection" our betters forced isolation on everyone, and we are reaping the results.
So, the only way out is to live through that slump and figure out who you are in this world, because it doesn't matter if you have 100 or 0 people around you - when life comes knocking, it will only ever knock on your door.
Having said that, I'd imagine that most people who are lonely do eventually come to the realization that they're confusing their emotions with reality. No medication will ever fine-tune your minds frequency to be able to hear your own voice that lives in your head.
And I think most crafty people in this world do eventually figure out that this life's short, and that spending your time worrying about bullshit (or worse yet, kicking yourself down deliberately) isn't worth it.
But I digress... If you haven't gotten to the Existential Loneliness stage yet, I suppose you're afforded some luxuries to carry on for a while still...