Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf](rpgwatch.com)
rpgwatch.com
Planescape: Torment pitch document (1997) [pdf]
https://rpgwatch.com/files/Files/00-0208/Torment_Vision_Statement_1997.pdf
112 comments
While the redhead devil tiefling” motif is very common due to the horns and core concept behind the race, that’s a really warming story nevertheless.
This was actually before the 3rd edition take on tieflings with the horns, although we agree it isn't an uncommon motif, except almost no one knew much about Planescape in 1996 - the events were really sparse because it was considered a really "weird" setting by the core attendees of Gencon. It was literally the three of us, one or two other people, and most of the Planescape devs. Which was fun hanging out with them, including Tony D, Monte Cook, Colin and several others. The next year, in 1997, the three of us went again, and there was a trivia contest for Planescape lore. They had to stop letting us answer questions because we were ringers :)
>> Tons of Total Babes: This game will have lots of babes that make the player go
“wow.”
>> There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes,
and even undead babes.
Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what target audience really want.
It almost like finding "and its also addictive, in most profitable kind of way" in Marlboro brand pitch deck.
Its kinda refrshing.
Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what target audience really want.
It almost like finding "and its also addictive, in most profitable kind of way" in Marlboro brand pitch deck.
Its kinda refrshing.
The actual game is nothing like this at all.
There are a couple of unfortunate character portraits of "babes", that don't match the actual character descriptions or behavior. It's the only juvenile aspect to the game, along with some of Morte's quips.
The actual game is neither juvenile nor a power fantasy. It is an anti-power-fantasy. It is about atonement for past misdeeds. Killing is often not the solution, and in fact there is a "pacifist" walkthrough.
Most of the characters you find are mentally and physically scarred by things done to them by [redacted].
There are a couple of unfortunate character portraits of "babes", that don't match the actual character descriptions or behavior. It's the only juvenile aspect to the game, along with some of Morte's quips.
The actual game is neither juvenile nor a power fantasy. It is an anti-power-fantasy. It is about atonement for past misdeeds. Killing is often not the solution, and in fact there is a "pacifist" walkthrough.
Most of the characters you find are mentally and physically scarred by things done to them by [redacted].
I think this is a common problem artists have to deal with. The art they want to make (and that fans want to get) vs the industry approval filter. You have to lie to at least one of these groups.
See new Netflix shows for how idiotic and self-sabotaging it can get if you choose lying to fans (see Witcher).
See new Netflix shows for how idiotic and self-sabotaging it can get if you choose lying to fans (see Witcher).
What's the problem with the Witcher?
First season was mostly ok, there were some "representation" changes but not too bad. 2nd season they changed everything to the point that it's easier to list what didn't changed. And they changed it for worse... Third season is supposedly so far off that the main actor Henry Caville who is a big fan of the books resigned.
Imagine Peter Jackson made Sam betray Frodo and sell him to Saruman, Gandalf was actually trying to turn Frodo into an orc, elves were actually going to the middle earth not escaping it, and the big bad wasn't Sauron but some new character invented by Jackson that makes no sense but sounds vaguely Icelandish because we want to keep the Nordic theme. Oh and half the party gets killed in Rivendale by the new villain mindfucking Frodo.
And magic stops being unexplained and mythical. You just gather shiny rocks and you can cast spells.
This is roughly equivalent to what has been changed in season 2. Characters and motivations are unrecognizable, the world is a mess.
Season 3 is widely boycotted by fans.
Imagine Peter Jackson made Sam betray Frodo and sell him to Saruman, Gandalf was actually trying to turn Frodo into an orc, elves were actually going to the middle earth not escaping it, and the big bad wasn't Sauron but some new character invented by Jackson that makes no sense but sounds vaguely Icelandish because we want to keep the Nordic theme. Oh and half the party gets killed in Rivendale by the new villain mindfucking Frodo.
And magic stops being unexplained and mythical. You just gather shiny rocks and you can cast spells.
This is roughly equivalent to what has been changed in season 2. Characters and motivations are unrecognizable, the world is a mess.
Season 3 is widely boycotted by fans.
> Season 3 is widely boycotted by fans.
This has strong “boycott Modern Warfare 2” energy.
This has strong “boycott Modern Warfare 2” energy.
> Well, I did not expected this level of honesty about what target audience really want.
IIRC it was the other way around, the pitch document went overboard with that because it was what the executives/publisher believed audiences would want :-)
Remember this wasn't the design document but the document to convince those with money to spend that money to make the game.
IIRC it was the other way around, the pitch document went overboard with that because it was what the executives/publisher believed audiences would want :-)
Remember this wasn't the design document but the document to convince those with money to spend that money to make the game.
I believe your recollection to be accurate.
The lead designer (Chris Avellone), who I think was the primary author of this document, is often playful and energetic/hyperbolic with his language, yet is extremely focused and professional in his approach to the actual game design. (I.e., this exact type of disconnect between the energy/tone of this document and the energy/tone of the game is consistent with what I know of him. The self depreciation, noted in the comment below by ricardobayes, is also on brand for him.)
Source: I've worked with Chris very directly on three games and indirectly on several others. We've talked about this document in passing before (though I didn't know him until a few years later).
The lead designer (Chris Avellone), who I think was the primary author of this document, is often playful and energetic/hyperbolic with his language, yet is extremely focused and professional in his approach to the actual game design. (I.e., this exact type of disconnect between the energy/tone of this document and the energy/tone of the game is consistent with what I know of him. The self depreciation, noted in the comment below by ricardobayes, is also on brand for him.)
Source: I've worked with Chris very directly on three games and indirectly on several others. We've talked about this document in passing before (though I didn't know him until a few years later).
This might be widely inappropriate to bring up, but do you know how Chris' lawsuit against his cancellers is going? Like many players I used to look up to his work, and then was of course taken aback by the serious allegations against him; it's one of the messiest he said/she said cases I've encountered, though. Still very curious about the ultimate outcome.
Edit: https://kotaku.com/fallout-new-vegas-avellone-sexual-miscond...
Edit: https://kotaku.com/fallout-new-vegas-avellone-sexual-miscond...
https://chrisavellone.medium.com/joint-statement-from-kariss...
They completely recanted their allegations and paid him a sum of money.
They completely recanted their allegations and paid him a sum of money.
IIRC the game does have a couple of female characters that could be seen as catering to that kind of a stereotype, at least in terms of appearance if not necessarily the story.
But I also got the overall vibe that the pitch document goes overboard in terms of emphasizing that aspect as well as other kinds of shallow badassery such as the violence of the game.
The pitch document also makes a big fuss about "ego masturbation" and the "player's power fantasy", and how the main character and his destiny are the centrepieces of everything. But that's not the vibe I got from the game at all. The main character is obviously at the centre of a lot of things, and I think the games does allow you to play selfishly. But I don't think the game really directs you towards that, let alone glorifying the character or the results of his past actions. Those parts of the pitch document read really weird to me.
The game does of course make a point of being morbid and gruesome, even macabre. But I think the game does that with a lot less bravado than the pitch document suggests.
But then, it is a pitch document, and not even marketing for the finished product.
But I also got the overall vibe that the pitch document goes overboard in terms of emphasizing that aspect as well as other kinds of shallow badassery such as the violence of the game.
The pitch document also makes a big fuss about "ego masturbation" and the "player's power fantasy", and how the main character and his destiny are the centrepieces of everything. But that's not the vibe I got from the game at all. The main character is obviously at the centre of a lot of things, and I think the games does allow you to play selfishly. But I don't think the game really directs you towards that, let alone glorifying the character or the results of his past actions. Those parts of the pitch document read really weird to me.
The game does of course make a point of being morbid and gruesome, even macabre. But I think the game does that with a lot less bravado than the pitch document suggests.
But then, it is a pitch document, and not even marketing for the finished product.
The disconnect between the look and the actual description of the two main female characters, Fall-from-Grace and Annah, is interesting.
Annah looks like a bimbo in her 3D model, but in game most NPCs find her repulsive or at least off-putting. She's not sexualized in-game, but her portrait is that of a "sexy babe".
Conversely, Fall-from-Grace is described in-game as a tempting succubus (though she doesn't behave like one) and is supposed to be extremely attractive, yet her 3D portrait is rendered in shadows, very skinny, with scary bat wings and no hint of "babe" characteristics. She is not "sexy".
I wonder if the people who drew the character portraits were going by the early pitch draft, because the disconnect with the actual characters is extreme.
Annah looks like a bimbo in her 3D model, but in game most NPCs find her repulsive or at least off-putting. She's not sexualized in-game, but her portrait is that of a "sexy babe".
Conversely, Fall-from-Grace is described in-game as a tempting succubus (though she doesn't behave like one) and is supposed to be extremely attractive, yet her 3D portrait is rendered in shadows, very skinny, with scary bat wings and no hint of "babe" characteristics. She is not "sexy".
I wonder if the people who drew the character portraits were going by the early pitch draft, because the disconnect with the actual characters is extreme.
For younger folks, I would suggest looking at E3 convention 1998 and 1999 galleries.
That will tell you what you need to know about the state of the computer gaming industry and publishers at that point.
This was circa-"John Romero's about to make you his bitch" [0] as acceptable copy for a full-page ad.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana#Promotion_and_rele...
That will tell you what you need to know about the state of the computer gaming industry and publishers at that point.
This was circa-"John Romero's about to make you his bitch" [0] as acceptable copy for a full-page ad.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana#Promotion_and_rele...
For those who haven't played the game, it should be noted that the game is nothing like what the pitch implies.
PS:T is a well written and introspective RPG and in this capacity it is rivaled by only a handful of contenders.
PS:T is a well written and introspective RPG and in this capacity it is rivaled by only a handful of contenders.
Disco Elysium, which I haven't gotten around to playing yet so I have no personal opinion, is the only contender I can think of.
The only other game I can think of with that level of narrative craft is the Marathon series, which isn't an RPG, but rather an FPS.
I'm kind of surprised Marathon 4 hasn't been kickstarted yet. There is definitely a whole lot of money on the table there, as the System Shock remake proves.
The only other game I can think of with that level of narrative craft is the Marathon series, which isn't an RPG, but rather an FPS.
I'm kind of surprised Marathon 4 hasn't been kickstarted yet. There is definitely a whole lot of money on the table there, as the System Shock remake proves.
(FWIW, the studio with which I'm affiliated (https://digimancygames.com) is focused on narrative-driven CRPGs in the vein of games like PS:T and Disco Elysium. We have assembled three of the Disco Elysium writers and other talent in this space. We have an internal project, but are seeking publishing partners or investors.)
Interesting, I wish you well as we sorely need more RPGs in that vein... are you writing an engine in-house?
Thanks. :) Gosh, no. (Too much additional work for the benefit, for us.) We've used Unity, but we expect to transition to Unreal in the future as Unity's direction in recent years unfortunately has been ominous.
Disco Elysium is probably the best game I've ever played but I couldn't get into Planescape Torment.
I would love a modern recreation of planescape torment. the story seems excellent but I bounced off the actual experience of the game
Even as someone who played it when it was a few years old, it’s challenging to replay today. Definitely deserves a refresh.
Having played both Disco Elysium and Planescape, this is very accurate. Depending on the choices you make you will find yourself with the same plot points accomplished in totally different ways in both games. And different choices will go off the rails too.
Bungie announced a new Marathon game a few weeks ago, in case you didn't know. It's going to be an extraction shooter (a la Escape from Tarkov) and not singleplayer FPS, though.
Tides of Torment, perhaps?
Do you mean the spiritual successor "Torment: Tides of Numenera"?
I thought it was very good, but also seemed to be trying too hard to do "torment again" and IMO felt rather forced in the process. Also, I find the Ninth World setting to be a bit too deliberately odd, whereas Planescape feels more naturally odd. I'm also looking at PST with huge nostalgia goggles (first played it in my early teens), but played TToN around age 30, so it's far from a fair comparison.
I thought it was very good, but also seemed to be trying too hard to do "torment again" and IMO felt rather forced in the process. Also, I find the Ninth World setting to be a bit too deliberately odd, whereas Planescape feels more naturally odd. I'm also looking at PST with huge nostalgia goggles (first played it in my early teens), but played TToN around age 30, so it's far from a fair comparison.
[deleted]
Both human and Asian? That’s real representation.
Don't know why you're flagged, that's hilarious. The PDF literally lists "Asian" as a category of babe alongside "Undead" and separately from "human".
That’s definitely pandering to the executives.
Can't recall any Asian character from the game though.
Time for an "Asian babes" mod I guess.
Time for an "Asian babes" mod I guess.
Then a few sections later
> Babes: Think babes. Then think more babes.
Slightly different times :)
> Babes: Think babes. Then think more babes.
Slightly different times :)
It strikes me as not a little weird that the word for a hot, sexy member of either sex is the same as a word for a very, very small child.
Like, "Why, hello there, infant." dogwhistle
Like, "Why, hello there, infant." dogwhistle
That's because they call you "Daddy" in the bedroom.
There's actually sort of a real reason for this. In the traditional monogamous or even polygamous relationship throughout human history it's usually the Male taking care of the female. Women when seeking a relationship are sort of searching for a caretaker that has sort of father like qualities of having enough resources to take care of them, taking a dominant role... etc.
The relationship most similar to it is father and daughter I can sort of see why the linguistics have sort of merged.
Obviously, in the last century, things have changed and the etiquette of relationship dynamics need to be spoken of in a way that's more egalitarian.
But you can't completely deny millions of years of human anthropological behavior. If men usually played more dominant/caretaker roles in relationships in the majority of civilizations, then along that timescale certain behaviors become a bit ingrained biologically through natural selection. It's not surprising to see these attributes creep into language.
There's actually sort of a real reason for this. In the traditional monogamous or even polygamous relationship throughout human history it's usually the Male taking care of the female. Women when seeking a relationship are sort of searching for a caretaker that has sort of father like qualities of having enough resources to take care of them, taking a dominant role... etc.
The relationship most similar to it is father and daughter I can sort of see why the linguistics have sort of merged.
Obviously, in the last century, things have changed and the etiquette of relationship dynamics need to be spoken of in a way that's more egalitarian.
But you can't completely deny millions of years of human anthropological behavior. If men usually played more dominant/caretaker roles in relationships in the majority of civilizations, then along that timescale certain behaviors become a bit ingrained biologically through natural selection. It's not surprising to see these attributes creep into language.
Poppycock. until recently, in agricultural societies, families (usually men) were choosing families to cement relationships with by trading children. what the woman (and frequently the men) wanted was mostly irrelevant. see https://scholars-stage.org/against-human-sexual-selection/
If "daddy" is a thing, it's because of frequent age differences, since pregnancy is extremely hard on your body (fatality rates as high as being a soldier in a warzone until the advent of modern medicine).
If "daddy" is a thing, it's because of frequent age differences, since pregnancy is extremely hard on your body (fatality rates as high as being a soldier in a warzone until the advent of modern medicine).
okasaki(1)
Similarly to when people call their significant others "baby".
I don't think so. The language used in 2023 may be different, but the intent is the same: "Give them nudity, give them sex, give them violence. This is what will make us money".
As the post I was replying to said - at least they were honest with their intent. They knew their audience and set out to target them. But there are far more people playing games nowadays, so when you're planning a game nowadays you'd probably not zero in on that specific audience.
This language is unconventional for business even in the 90s. Additionally men wouldn't talk this way in front of women in Any time.
The difference now is it's less culturally accepted to talk like this even in casual situations even when just among men.
Plenty women objectify men by wealth and status and they refer to men this way even publicly. The cultural change is mostly one sided, skewed more towards not offending women.
For example, referring to men as Hunks or Chads is just not offensive at all. In fact it's a compliment. I feel it's almost entitlement if a girl gets offended by being called a babe.
The difference now is it's less culturally accepted to talk like this even in casual situations even when just among men.
Plenty women objectify men by wealth and status and they refer to men this way even publicly. The cultural change is mostly one sided, skewed more towards not offending women.
For example, referring to men as Hunks or Chads is just not offensive at all. In fact it's a compliment. I feel it's almost entitlement if a girl gets offended by being called a babe.
This shows an inherent lack of understanding. Some men, starved of affection, feel nice when treated similarwly to women. I'd they have their ass grabbed, or they get car called, of whatever - it feels like a nice confidence boost.
However, it entirely overlooks the fact that for many women, this behavior is non-stop, and comes with the very important difference that men are inherently much stronger than women, which means that they constantly feel a lot more threatened and unsafe than men do in the same situations.
However, it entirely overlooks the fact that for many women, this behavior is non-stop, and comes with the very important difference that men are inherently much stronger than women, which means that they constantly feel a lot more threatened and unsafe than men do in the same situations.
Also, use of the word "babes" screams mid nineties.
I was skeptical at first, but the babes are even undead? Truly this must be the RPG of a generation
> Did you see the way she was looking at me boss?
> You mean that slack-jawed beyond the grave look?
> You mean that slack-jawed beyond the grave look?
Ahh Morte.
What were the chances? I installed Planescape Torment last night, to play around a bit with it. It's been sitting in my "to-try" list for at least 15 years!
I'm however not very fond of having to sit down on my desk to play games with keyboard and mouse, though... I already spend enough of my life sitting in the exact same position for work. That alone discourages me from playing several old games I own (and not so old, like the newer X-Com) and even the newer Monkey Island game (which of course is sitting in the same list for some years now too)
I'm however not very fond of having to sit down on my desk to play games with keyboard and mouse, though... I already spend enough of my life sitting in the exact same position for work. That alone discourages me from playing several old games I own (and not so old, like the newer X-Com) and even the newer Monkey Island game (which of course is sitting in the same list for some years now too)
Well, if there's one game worth your time, PS:T is probably it. Arguably one of the best cRPGs of all time.
People have rose tinted glasses when they talk about old games.
PS:T was a cut above the other cRPGs of its time mainly because it had adequate writing and an engaging story when most other cRPGs were trite. Still everything after Raven’s maze is just average until the ending where it gets good again and the gameplay outside of dialogue is frankly uninteresting. It’s in a lot of way like the original Dark Soul whose last half is so aweful I’m not sure the awesome first one is enough to redeem the game.
PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs. I’m not sure it’s worth revisiting considering how long it is.
PS:T was a cut above the other cRPGs of its time mainly because it had adequate writing and an engaging story when most other cRPGs were trite. Still everything after Raven’s maze is just average until the ending where it gets good again and the gameplay outside of dialogue is frankly uninteresting. It’s in a lot of way like the original Dark Soul whose last half is so aweful I’m not sure the awesome first one is enough to redeem the game.
PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs. I’m not sure it’s worth revisiting considering how long it is.
Talking about the gameplay outside the dialogue is a bit silly though. Why people still love it are writing and plot. The mechanics were simply the bog standard mechanics of the day and don't matter much.
Which games would you say have bested it in terms of writing/plot? I see a few but not very many really. Disco Elysium would be the first but that also stands alone in terms of quality. (That said, don't get to game much anymore so could very well have missed a lot...).
Which games would you say have bested it in terms of writing/plot? I see a few but not very many really. Disco Elysium would be the first but that also stands alone in terms of quality. (That said, don't get to game much anymore so could very well have missed a lot...).
How is it silly?
PS:T is a cRPGs not a visual novel. There is an actual game you have to play around the dialogues and this game is not particularly complex, engaging or even that fun as demonstrated by the rest of my comment lamenting the part of the game after Raven’s maze which is notorious for having lots of boring combats and less dialogue than the rest of the game.
People excuse the mechanics both because the plot was original and because they have forgotten as this part of the game is unremarkable. It still make for a less than stellar experience when you play it today.
PS:T is a cRPGs not a visual novel. There is an actual game you have to play around the dialogues and this game is not particularly complex, engaging or even that fun as demonstrated by the rest of my comment lamenting the part of the game after Raven’s maze which is notorious for having lots of boring combats and less dialogue than the rest of the game.
People excuse the mechanics both because the plot was original and because they have forgotten as this part of the game is unremarkable. It still make for a less than stellar experience when you play it today.
Dialog doesn't make it "one of the best cRPGs of all time" or even necessarily worth playing in 2023. That's the rose tinted glasses.
The gameplay is absolutely an important part of "should I play this now".
Plenty of games that were good when they came out aren't worth investing hours in today. Bioshock Infinite comes to mind.
The gameplay is absolutely an important part of "should I play this now".
Plenty of games that were good when they came out aren't worth investing hours in today. Bioshock Infinite comes to mind.
I disagree, I want a game to have either passable gameplay or for its gameplay to just get out of the way.
If a game is relatively linear (think Last of Us, To the Moon, Alan Wake), I'm actually inclined to just watch a lets play because I can skip the "gameplay" parts.
Maybe that makes me the minority, but I don't think it invalidates the opinions of people saying PS:T was a phenomenal game even if the gameplay was nothing special
If a game is relatively linear (think Last of Us, To the Moon, Alan Wake), I'm actually inclined to just watch a lets play because I can skip the "gameplay" parts.
Maybe that makes me the minority, but I don't think it invalidates the opinions of people saying PS:T was a phenomenal game even if the gameplay was nothing special
I disagree. I'd be interested to hear which games you think are comparable or superior - I'd like to play them, if I haven't!
I think the only comparable games recently have been mostly outside what I would consider the cRPG genre, taken strictly: Elden ring, horizon zero dawn / forbidden west, recent Zelda franchise entries, RDR/RDR2, I was a Teenage Exocolonist
Witcher 3 is probably the strongest challenger, I think.
I haven't played Disco Elysium but I hear good things. I don't think the Mass Effect series fully measures up, though it's definitely in the ballpark. Same for the Elder Scrolls series - suffers the opposite problem from PS:T, that the gameplay is solid but the plot fails.
I think the only comparable games recently have been mostly outside what I would consider the cRPG genre, taken strictly: Elden ring, horizon zero dawn / forbidden west, recent Zelda franchise entries, RDR/RDR2, I was a Teenage Exocolonist
Witcher 3 is probably the strongest challenger, I think.
I haven't played Disco Elysium but I hear good things. I don't think the Mass Effect series fully measures up, though it's definitely in the ballpark. Same for the Elder Scrolls series - suffers the opposite problem from PS:T, that the gameplay is solid but the plot fails.
>PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs. I’m not sure it’s worth revisiting considering how long it is.
I disagree. The story of PS:T is still superior in terms of depth, writing, plot and setting.
The entire package is better than most fantasy or sci-fi novels.
modern CRGPS are better in presentation and gameplay. But setting and story is what sets Torment apart. It still hasn't been bested.
I'm not looking at this through rose colored glasses either. Like there are games I loved back then that I will willingly admit are pretty bad nowadays. Zelda OOT, for example. That game was revolutionary but it doesn't hold it up, it's crap nowadays.
Planescape torment is not like that. There is literally nothing else like it in the gaming world even today.
I disagree. The story of PS:T is still superior in terms of depth, writing, plot and setting.
The entire package is better than most fantasy or sci-fi novels.
modern CRGPS are better in presentation and gameplay. But setting and story is what sets Torment apart. It still hasn't been bested.
I'm not looking at this through rose colored glasses either. Like there are games I loved back then that I will willingly admit are pretty bad nowadays. Zelda OOT, for example. That game was revolutionary but it doesn't hold it up, it's crap nowadays.
Planescape torment is not like that. There is literally nothing else like it in the gaming world even today.
I am a Planescape Torment extreme fanboy and... I have to agree.
But it's still worth playing, it is still better than the median cRPG almost 25 years later, and it remains a milestone in cRPGs history: i.e. just like Sgt Peppers or Dark Side of the Moon are still worth listening today.
But it's still worth playing, it is still better than the median cRPG almost 25 years later, and it remains a milestone in cRPGs history: i.e. just like Sgt Peppers or Dark Side of the Moon are still worth listening today.
You do not get to lay down such criticism without offering alternative suggestions. What is your top-tier classic or modern cRPG?
Edit: Not a fanboy defensiveness or anything. Just rare to see the contrarian opinion on this, and genuinely curious. Other than the trash combat, I really enjoyed my time with PST.
Edit: Not a fanboy defensiveness or anything. Just rare to see the contrarian opinion on this, and genuinely curious. Other than the trash combat, I really enjoyed my time with PST.
I think all things considered BG2 aged better - it had less exciting plot, but it balanced better all the aspects.
That said, I would nudge Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder: Kingmaker above PST as they have an equally good amount of story, NPC interaction, they balance combat better. Pillars II, Wrath of the Righteous and Tides of Numenera, otoh, are below the PST bar in my opinion but ymmv depending on tastes. On the Divinity side, DOS:2 is also a good competitor in the list, although I find it the story tends to be too diluted by combat.
Notably many of the titles I listed above have had Avellone involved at some point (I think he had been involved with Numenera, DOS:2, Pillars I and Kingmaker, maybe more).
I was very skeptical about BG3, especially because even if I listed DOS:2 above, I didn't really like it too much, I'm no Larian fan. But I played the early access and it seems to be golden good so far.
Otoh I replayed (for the billionth time?) all IE games recently and while I still consider PST to be the best IE game ever (only BG2 comes close) it's definitely not uniform. The plot weakens after leaving Sigil, and so do side quests and non-linearity (it's actually pretty linear overall, but after Sigil it doesn't even maintain the illusion). Even the interactions with NPCs are sometimes lackluster (e.g. I would have "pushed" Morte more on the "don't trust the skull" bit) I felt (but it's personal opinion I'd say) that many interactions in PoE went deeper than that.
Anyway, these are opinions and I know of at least one PST fan who would trash the PoEs, Numenera and the Pathfinders (but loved DOS:2), so YMMV.
That said, I would nudge Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder: Kingmaker above PST as they have an equally good amount of story, NPC interaction, they balance combat better. Pillars II, Wrath of the Righteous and Tides of Numenera, otoh, are below the PST bar in my opinion but ymmv depending on tastes. On the Divinity side, DOS:2 is also a good competitor in the list, although I find it the story tends to be too diluted by combat.
Notably many of the titles I listed above have had Avellone involved at some point (I think he had been involved with Numenera, DOS:2, Pillars I and Kingmaker, maybe more).
I was very skeptical about BG3, especially because even if I listed DOS:2 above, I didn't really like it too much, I'm no Larian fan. But I played the early access and it seems to be golden good so far.
Otoh I replayed (for the billionth time?) all IE games recently and while I still consider PST to be the best IE game ever (only BG2 comes close) it's definitely not uniform. The plot weakens after leaving Sigil, and so do side quests and non-linearity (it's actually pretty linear overall, but after Sigil it doesn't even maintain the illusion). Even the interactions with NPCs are sometimes lackluster (e.g. I would have "pushed" Morte more on the "don't trust the skull" bit) I felt (but it's personal opinion I'd say) that many interactions in PoE went deeper than that.
Anyway, these are opinions and I know of at least one PST fan who would trash the PoEs, Numenera and the Pathfinders (but loved DOS:2), so YMMV.
I found the first Pillars of Eternity game incredibly boring, and actually liked the 2nd one more... though I also grew bored of it before too long. BG2 was ok, but I don't think any of these games can hold a candle to PS:T in terms of writing.
I haven't tried Pathfinder: Kingmaker, because it has an enormous number of very negative reviews, so I'm surprised you'd put it in the same league as PS:T.
I haven't tried Pathfinder: Kingmaker, because it has an enormous number of very negative reviews, so I'm surprised you'd put it in the same league as PS:T.
> Sgt Peppers
Interesting.. I consider this one of the best albums of all time, unrelated to the "standards of the time" or whatever.
I also don't think I've played a CRPG I enjoyed as much as Planescape. Some of the fallout games may have been pretty close, though I never finished any of them
Interesting.. I consider this one of the best albums of all time, unrelated to the "standards of the time" or whatever.
I also don't think I've played a CRPG I enjoyed as much as Planescape. Some of the fallout games may have been pretty close, though I never finished any of them
[deleted]
>It’s in a lot of way like the original Dark Soul whose last half is so aweful I’m not sure the awesome first one is enough to redeem the game.
What are you talking about? I've never heard this take before. I found it fantastic all the way through. Maybe introducing the lord vessel was a poor design choice, but it's a minor fault.
What are you talking about? I've never heard this take before. I found it fantastic all the way through. Maybe introducing the lord vessel was a poor design choice, but it's a minor fault.
It’s a fairly common opinion even amongst fans of the Soul games. Basically everything after Anor Londo was rushed through as the budget dwindled and the game had to be released.
The catacombs are just a smudgy mess with a couple of uninteresting ennemies and a mid-boss without any worthwhile patterns. The depth is just reskinned old ennemies you have to plod through one after the other before what’s probably the worst boss in the soul games. Even the better areas like Duke’s Archive, Crystal Cave or New Londo are inferiorly designed retread of previous ideas. The true genius of the game - the looping-on-itself level design - is over and you spend your time in this very bland linear areas wishing it was over already.
Honestly if the game stopped after fighting Orstein and Smough, it would be a better game overall.
The DLC is good again however. You can tell FromSoft got additional budget for it.
The catacombs are just a smudgy mess with a couple of uninteresting ennemies and a mid-boss without any worthwhile patterns. The depth is just reskinned old ennemies you have to plod through one after the other before what’s probably the worst boss in the soul games. Even the better areas like Duke’s Archive, Crystal Cave or New Londo are inferiorly designed retread of previous ideas. The true genius of the game - the looping-on-itself level design - is over and you spend your time in this very bland linear areas wishing it was over already.
Honestly if the game stopped after fighting Orstein and Smough, it would be a better game overall.
The DLC is good again however. You can tell FromSoft got additional budget for it.
If you want to see what rushed looks like, compare Revenant[1] before and after the major underground section.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenant_(video_game)
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenant_(video_game)
Yeah, East Ahkuilon is pretty decent, the caves kinda outstay their welcome, West Ahkuilon tries to hang in there, but after you defeat Teleporty McFireball things really take a nosedive.
It’s a shame, it seemed to me at the time that the game had a lot of potential and the core systems were quite fun.
There’s lots of praise for the connected, looping level design, and I see claims that the lord vessel ruins that… but most of their subsequent games featured easy teleportation, right? Walking around gets old, IMO.
The original Souls game, Demon's Souls also featured easy teleportation. It's kinda like the difference between Morrowind and Oblivion: in one game you're running around everywhere until you get the means to fast travel and in the other you can zip to and from discovered locations from the start of the game.
The "game" part isn't very good and arguably it's more "interactive fiction" than "game", but I don't think this has anything to do with the age of it – this is the case for quite a few RPGs that focus more on the story, including newer ones. These kind of games trailing off a bit towards the end is also somewhat common.
There are also very few cRPGs of the same type; maybe about 20 in total? Note I don't consider all these first-person action-RPGs the same "type"; it's cool if you're in to that, but I'm not really.
At any rate, I don't think it's a perfect game, but IMHO it holds up very well.
There are also very few cRPGs of the same type; maybe about 20 in total? Note I don't consider all these first-person action-RPGs the same "type"; it's cool if you're in to that, but I'm not really.
At any rate, I don't think it's a perfect game, but IMHO it holds up very well.
"People have rose tinted glasses when they talk about old games. PS:T was a cut above the other cRPGs of its time mainly because it had adequate writing and an engaging story when most other cRPGs were trite."
Adequate writing? The writing of 99.9% of games is simply atrocious, and PS:T was and still is miles above them.
"PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs"
It's been bested on the gameplay and graphics level, but I've yet to find a game with better writing.
Adequate writing? The writing of 99.9% of games is simply atrocious, and PS:T was and still is miles above them.
"PS:T has now been bested by plenty of modern cRPGs"
It's been bested on the gameplay and graphics level, but I've yet to find a game with better writing.
What are your other methods of playing besides keyboard and mouse?
The newest monkey Island is steam Deck verified and also works with gamepad on your tv computer etc :)
I think new x-com games are steam deck playable. And original xcom game is eminently playable on any old laptop :)
The newest monkey Island is steam Deck verified and also works with gamepad on your tv computer etc :)
I think new x-com games are steam deck playable. And original xcom game is eminently playable on any old laptop :)
One of the steam deck's really underappreciated features is the trackpads. You can use them to play a whole heap of KB+M games that were otherwise off bounds for a handheld.
I've been playing through the Sam & Max episodic games this way: trackpad for pointer, and buttons for clicks. It doesn't need fast-paced interactions so it's very forgiving there. When more speed is needed, I've heard others combine the trackpad with some minor gyro mouse input such that the touchpad does the coarse pointer manipulation and then gyro does the fine detail. Apparently you can get quite fast with this approach.
I've been playing through the Sam & Max episodic games this way: trackpad for pointer, and buttons for clicks. It doesn't need fast-paced interactions so it's very forgiving there. When more speed is needed, I've heard others combine the trackpad with some minor gyro mouse input such that the touchpad does the coarse pointer manipulation and then gyro does the fine detail. Apparently you can get quite fast with this approach.
PS:T is also available for iOS, Android and Switch. The controls have been adapted for the platforms and play great.
And ofcourse like others have pointed out the Steam Deck is amazing also older games.
The new Monkey Island is also available for atleast the Switch btw.
And ofcourse like others have pointed out the Steam Deck is amazing also older games.
The new Monkey Island is also available for atleast the Switch btw.
Sadly the deprecation of 32-bit Android apps has done a lot of damage to backwards compatibility...
Wonder what would have happened if Android was a Microsoft platform :-)
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/87197/pst-ee-on-androi...
Basically, the game doesn't work any more on my Android 13 device, because devs need to go back to it and recompile the sources for 64-bit ARM.
Naturally with a change like that with no compatibility layer available, there will be tons of apps and games left behind as abandonware, because their devs have better things to do (if they are even still around, at all!) than going back and recompiling all their source code. We'll see if BeamDog ever gets to it for PS:T!
Wonder what would have happened if Android was a Microsoft platform :-)
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/87197/pst-ee-on-androi...
Basically, the game doesn't work any more on my Android 13 device, because devs need to go back to it and recompile the sources for 64-bit ARM.
Naturally with a change like that with no compatibility layer available, there will be tons of apps and games left behind as abandonware, because their devs have better things to do (if they are even still around, at all!) than going back and recompiling all their source code. We'll see if BeamDog ever gets to it for PS:T!
Seems like this is the problem Steam Deck solves.
The Steam Deck came to completely replace my gaming on PC precisely because of this, but mouse+keyboard type games are a mixed bag of experiences... depends a lot on each game.
This one seems to run great, touch screen probably helps a lot. Only complaints seem to be small text on screen:
https://www.protondb.com/app/466300
I also wasn't able to adapt to first person shooters, after a life of playing with mouse, it is almost impossible for me to not feel that gamepad controls are clunky.
This one seems to run great, touch screen probably helps a lot. Only complaints seem to be small text on screen:
https://www.protondb.com/app/466300
I also wasn't able to adapt to first person shooters, after a life of playing with mouse, it is almost impossible for me to not feel that gamepad controls are clunky.
How do you replace a mouse with it?
Is it with a touchscreen or knobs on the side?
I think I would still miss a mouse for precision and speed with that ..
Is it with a touchscreen or knobs on the side?
I think I would still miss a mouse for precision and speed with that ..
It has a touchscreen, two joysticks and two touchpad likes surfaces, you can configure them how you like.
However the screen is 7 inches and text in games like this or early Fallouts is too small for me, so I planned to use SD for them but resigned.
However the screen is 7 inches and text in games like this or early Fallouts is too small for me, so I planned to use SD for them but resigned.
Most of the Infinity Engine games play very well on a Windows tablet with an active stylus.
Unfortunately, PST is an early iteration of the engine and I had problems with inventory manipulation --- not sure if that was ever addressed.
Unfortunately, PST is an early iteration of the engine and I had problems with inventory manipulation --- not sure if that was ever addressed.
There are capacitive touchpads on both sides of the deck, but calling them that really sells them short. It has an extensive controller mapping system. I play a lot of strategy and RTS games, and they can be set up with a wide variety of customizable overlays and haptics, that you can mix with button-chording as desired
It's worth also emphasising that they can be combined, so that you can combine the touchpads with the gyro such that the touchpads do coarse mouse movement and the gyro does the fine tweaking. This is apparently surprisingly effective, though I've not tried it myself.
Similarly, for FPS the gyro can be used for additional aiming and even set such that it's only enabled when one of the joysticks is touched (via the capacitive receiver).
Similarly, for FPS the gyro can be used for additional aiming and even set such that it's only enabled when one of the joysticks is touched (via the capacitive receiver).
When I lived in a house with a treadmill, I hooked my Macbook up to a TV and used a gamepad mapped to mouse (move, click, scroll) input to play a lot of older games while walking. It’s what inspired me to build my own remap software.
Because yeah I can’t sit at a computer to play games.
Because yeah I can’t sit at a computer to play games.
Can you tell me more about the gamepad and software you used? I've been looking for a decent solution like this for ages.
I purchased "Planescape: Torment: Enhanced" in Google Play on my Amazon Fire tablet a couple years ago. Probably missed out on a few keyboard shortcuts, but like you I don't sit at the computer for gaming much anymore.
I definitely feel this ever since switching primarily to remote work. I buy PC games periodically that are often amazing but I struggle to find myself able to dedicate much time to them because I already spend way too much time in the room taking care of work stuff. Console games are more doable because I can play them on the couch.
Does this make me want to go back into the office full time? Not sure. The quick commute from my bed to my desk might be worth the sacrifice, but part of me definitely longs for the work of the before times.
Does this make me want to go back into the office full time? Not sure. The quick commute from my bed to my desk might be worth the sacrifice, but part of me definitely longs for the work of the before times.
X-Com 1 & 2 on ipad are good too. Sure, you don't have the same flexibility as on the computer but it's nice NOT to be tied to the same device in the same place.
XCOM (2012) is super convenient with a gamepad, I finished both new games (with Long War mod on top) with a 360 controller.
Give it a try, its control scheme is designed very well.
Give it a try, its control scheme is designed very well.
If it helps, I've played PS:T on an ipad and it was playable.
The Torment enhanced edition plays great on the iPad. I assume there is an Android release too.
P:T is available on android as a beamdog port.
It plays very nicely for that format.
It plays very nicely for that format.
I’ll just leave this here ;)
https://store.steampowered.com/app/466300/Planescape_Torment...
BTW: 4K resolution support.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/466300/Planescape_Torment...
BTW: 4K resolution support.
GOG DRM free alternative [0]
[0] https://www.gog.com/en/game/planescape_torment_enhanced_edit...
[0] https://www.gog.com/en/game/planescape_torment_enhanced_edit...
I often wish they make this game a TV show or even a series of movies, because the scenario, beyond the fact it's amazingly good, has potential for a lot of new arcs, thanks to the very concept of the game.
Characters scream for a bigger screen, with colorful personalities and back stories, plus they got a design made to scale to awesomeness.
And with the world building, you got a solid base plus endless possibilities.
I enjoyed the game very much, but let's face it, it's too old for most new gamers to appreciate.
Characters scream for a bigger screen, with colorful personalities and back stories, plus they got a design made to scale to awesomeness.
And with the world building, you got a solid base plus endless possibilities.
I enjoyed the game very much, but let's face it, it's too old for most new gamers to appreciate.
Not mentioned: "over 800,000 words of dialogue, our game will be remembered as the best eight D&D visual novels ever written". It's interesting how much of this pitch focusses on the gameplay when it's the extensive writing that ends up being memorable.
That's probably because the last thing studio execs (and gamers, who eat up so much shoddily written garbage) care about is writing.
If gamers rewarded well-written games, and avoided poorly written ones, pitches would focus a lot more on writing.
If gamers rewarded well-written games, and avoided poorly written ones, pitches would focus a lot more on writing.
From this RPGWatch interview:
https://rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=55 (part 1)
https://rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=56 (part 2)
https://rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=55 (part 1)
https://rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=56 (part 2)
I remind you all that GemRB runs BG 1/2 and Planescape Torment under GNU/Linux, OSX, Windows, Mac, Android... with ease.
I played Planescape back around 2015 or so, for the first time. I felt an uncanny similarity to the movie "Memento" by Christopher Nolan, which, coincidentally, was filmed around the same time, developing on themes from the earlier movie "Following" (that came out in 1998).
Then I came to know that this was actually a major point of discussion, with various theories swirling around it.
Then I came to know that this was actually a major point of discussion, with various theories swirling around it.
The document contains spoilers for anyone who’s willing to play it today.
Wow this reads so fresh, it's written beautifully. Even if you just skim it you get the point, and subjectively, it's very funny. I love the self-deprecating humor.
Yeah objectively it's not very funny at all.
Technical limitations made it difficult to deliver on every single aspect of the pitch, but I’d say it filled the spirit of the game intended by this doc.
It goes a long way towards explaining how it so significantly differentiated itself from the more sterile (but battle focused— which was fun too) Icewinf Dale games or the Baldur’s Gate games that had a bit more guardrails build into them.
All of those stand out as exceptional classics, but Planescape was unique among them.
It goes a long way towards explaining how it so significantly differentiated itself from the more sterile (but battle focused— which was fun too) Icewinf Dale games or the Baldur’s Gate games that had a bit more guardrails build into them.
All of those stand out as exceptional classics, but Planescape was unique among them.
Like others have said, the final game is different. One of the best games ever made with one of the most creative settings.
Really loved the NPC companions. They were so deep and some of them you could make more powerful just by having a conversation with them. It’s a rare D&D property where wisdom is a more important stat than strength.
Really loved the NPC companions. They were so deep and some of them you could make more powerful just by having a conversation with them. It’s a rare D&D property where wisdom is a more important stat than strength.
I finished PS:T about year ago. It was so refreshing experience and story telling compared to nowadays game production.
I'm still hoping for finished translation of Disco Elysium to my native language to have similar experience. My EN is not good enough to completely enjoy chatty RPG.
I'm still hoping for finished translation of Disco Elysium to my native language to have similar experience. My EN is not good enough to completely enjoy chatty RPG.
> 1 security vendor flagged this URL as malicious (Phishing)
https://www.virustotal.com/gui/url/9ed70fc608cd35117a0079556...
https://www.virustotal.com/gui/url/9ed70fc608cd35117a0079556...
In 1997, Planescape Torment came out, and we loved it. However, it was a bit shocking to find they had an NPC named Annah, that was a red-headed tiefling with a devil's tail. We still think Annah was heavily drawn from Lilah!