VanMoof, the e-bike startup, officially declared bankrupt in The Netherlands(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
VanMoof, the e-bike startup, officially declared bankrupt in The Netherlands
https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/18/vanmoof-goes-vanpoof-bankruptcy/
70 comments
This is a smart marketing move and also a possibility to create extra funds for the company upfront. But as it turns out, unfortunately the company had its finances not in order.
Also interesting:
> VanMoof’s e-bike ad banned in France for creating a ‘climate of anxiety’
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/30/21308117/vanmoof-ebike-ad...
> VanMoof’s e-bike ad banned in France for creating a ‘climate of anxiety’
https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/30/21308117/vanmoof-ebike-ad...
My take on that at the time was that vested business interested didn’t want to see a direct connection made between cars, pollution, congestion, and wasting of space.
I also suspect that VanMoof hoped to cause a stir to get more articles written. Their QA may be shoddy, but their marketing is on point.
I also suspect that VanMoof hoped to cause a stir to get more articles written. Their QA may be shoddy, but their marketing is on point.
Maybe I’m just naive, but I would never have predicted that ad would be controversial enough to be banned. It seems like totally reasonable messaging for an e-bike company - why not play to your strengths? Maybe in the ad space it’s more clear where the invisible lines are and they really did mastermind that this would elicit a huge negative reaction that they could play up for marketing purposes.
When clicking on that link I was expecting to see some Italian Job inspired ad about their bike retrieval service. Camera opens on two slim but imposing men in adidas jump suits and dark sunglasses, looking down at an iPhone with a flashing red dot on a map. The lighting is dark, the feeling gritty. They look at each other with unspoken affirmation before kicking down a door in narrow European tenement hall. Inside the apartment is littered with clearly stolen bike parts. The bike thief looks up from his chop stand, VanMoof eBike leaning against a wall beside him, and makes eye contact. Without a word, the thief grabs the bike, hops on it and bolts out the window. The two men each grab bikes in some half-state of disassembly and follow him out. A bike chase across European roofs follows. Sounds of a helicopter above. The thief is eventually cornered on a rooftop, the two men close in, camera fades out. The camera opens now, to the same two men holding the bike, in front of another door. Except this time the lighting is bright sunshine, think classic happy retail commercial. They’re wearing khaki shorts and polos, looking like basic, friendly big box retail employees. The door opens to a woman who face is initially concerned, then upon seeing the bike, she is relieved, and hugs the two men. Scene fades out. “VanMoof Theft Recovery Service. We’ll get it back.”
That I could see getting banned.
When clicking on that link I was expecting to see some Italian Job inspired ad about their bike retrieval service. Camera opens on two slim but imposing men in adidas jump suits and dark sunglasses, looking down at an iPhone with a flashing red dot on a map. The lighting is dark, the feeling gritty. They look at each other with unspoken affirmation before kicking down a door in narrow European tenement hall. Inside the apartment is littered with clearly stolen bike parts. The bike thief looks up from his chop stand, VanMoof eBike leaning against a wall beside him, and makes eye contact. Without a word, the thief grabs the bike, hops on it and bolts out the window. The two men each grab bikes in some half-state of disassembly and follow him out. A bike chase across European roofs follows. Sounds of a helicopter above. The thief is eventually cornered on a rooftop, the two men close in, camera fades out. The camera opens now, to the same two men holding the bike, in front of another door. Except this time the lighting is bright sunshine, think classic happy retail commercial. They’re wearing khaki shorts and polos, looking like basic, friendly big box retail employees. The door opens to a woman who face is initially concerned, then upon seeing the bike, she is relieved, and hugs the two men. Scene fades out. “VanMoof Theft Recovery Service. We’ll get it back.”
That I could see getting banned.
Many people didn’t lock their vanmoofs because of that. It made no sense to steal, but now when thieves know that vanmoof went bankrupt - they are stolen in enormous amounts.
Why would they? The resale value has plummeted because they're both prone to breakage and basically unserviceable.
It's 2000-3000 eur worth. You can sell it for less or take out the proprietary details like battery or automatic gear shifter and sell it.
Or you can steal it just for fun, because they are usually left unchained and unlocked all over the city. Easy target.
I wonder if they're really stolen or just reported stolen.
100% stolen. Two were stolen from my neighbours in Amsterdam this month, one of them just yesterday.
That's so strange, why steal a bike that is going to brick itself?
Throwback to the time my friends were all recommending these bikes and I told them anything that has a proprietary battery and app will be e-junk decades before its natural death
In the specific case of VanMoof, their app isn't strictly required after the bike is set up initially. But the point of the battery is dead-on.
Unfortunately, AFAIK virtually all ebikes on the market use proprietary batteries. Do you know of any that don't?
Unfortunately, AFAIK virtually all ebikes on the market use proprietary batteries. Do you know of any that don't?
Any bike that uses Bosch battery/motor kits. Those batteries are available on the market separately.
Oh cool, thanks. I know about those batteries, but I thought they were usually for conversion kits / DIY ebikes.
But this page shows several makers that use them: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/service/ebike-models#category...
Unfortunately for me, I don't think any of those are sold where I live (Japan). But a standard motor/battery would definitely be a major plus in my book when looking for a bike to buy.
UPDATE: Actually, Cannondale does market a Bosch-powered, roughly-VanMoof-grade bike here in Japan: https://www.cannondale.com/ja-jp/bikes/electric/e-urban/adve...
But this page shows several makers that use them: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/service/ebike-models#category...
Unfortunately for me, I don't think any of those are sold where I live (Japan). But a standard motor/battery would definitely be a major plus in my book when looking for a bike to buy.
UPDATE: Actually, Cannondale does market a Bosch-powered, roughly-VanMoof-grade bike here in Japan: https://www.cannondale.com/ja-jp/bikes/electric/e-urban/adve...
You can check Bosch Chinese competitor Bafang - they copy Bosch solutions and also very popular among bicycle makers.
https://bafang-e.com/en/home/
Thanks! That's actually really useful.
When I bought my last ebike in 2019, I wanted to get a model from USA that isn't sold here in Japan. Ignoring for the moment the regulatory stuff, I found that anyway the battery for ebikes was too big to take on an airplane myself, and too big for FedEx/DHL/etc to ship to Japan from USA.
I would have had to arrange my own boat shipping, which seemed like it was going to be too expensive, in addition to being to complicated to deal with while on vacation.
AFACT in a quick search, Bosch doesn't sell their ebike stuff here, but there are tons of Bafang motors and batteries readily available. Very interesting!
When I bought my last ebike in 2019, I wanted to get a model from USA that isn't sold here in Japan. Ignoring for the moment the regulatory stuff, I found that anyway the battery for ebikes was too big to take on an airplane myself, and too big for FedEx/DHL/etc to ship to Japan from USA.
I would have had to arrange my own boat shipping, which seemed like it was going to be too expensive, in addition to being to complicated to deal with while on vacation.
AFACT in a quick search, Bosch doesn't sell their ebike stuff here, but there are tons of Bafang motors and batteries readily available. Very interesting!
Bafang is even more popular than Bosch in the Netherlands. Many popular brands like VanMoof and Veloretti prefer them due to lower prices, more power and better repairability.
That’s not true, there are many manufacturers that use the same kind of battery and engine. In the Netherlands, most of the bikes I’ve seen seem to use Bosch.
Oh really, like who for instance? So far I haven't seen any ebikes other than maybe the no-brand ones on Amazon that do this. (But I would like to know about them if they exist.)
As I and the other commentor pointed out, quite a few bikes, especially the Netherlands, use the same standard engine and battery system by Bosch.
As an example, Canyon uses Bosch, Fazua, and Shimano batteries.
I own Union E-Fast https://www.union.nl/e-fast
Bafang BBS series had only two wires (positive and ground) connecting the battery to the motor.
I think other motors by bafang have similar setups.
I think other motors by bafang have similar setups.
There are probably 50+ manufacturers that use Bosch motors/batteries, however e-bikes that use these components tend to be higher quality and considerably more expensive than VanMoof i.e. Riese & Muller, Canyon, Cannondale, Orbea
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We bought a Rad Power City 4 bike and absolutely love it. But so much is proprietary on it. When a piece broke it was in the shop for over a month.
The URL is funnier than the title : vanmoof-goes-vanpoof-bankruptcy
Sad to see them go, I liked their design very much. I wasn't in the market for an e-bike yet, but I would have considered a VanMoof.
However:
>they can end up bricked in their basic state, since their working is tied closely to the use of the VanMoof app, and the VanMoof app will not continue to be supported.
This is not the future I signed up for. Even if someone hacked around their electronic locking now, that's just not a state of affairs that should be accepted. That is a version of "you'll own nothing" where I decidedly would be unhappy considering the price of their bike.
However:
>they can end up bricked in their basic state, since their working is tied closely to the use of the VanMoof app, and the VanMoof app will not continue to be supported.
This is not the future I signed up for. Even if someone hacked around their electronic locking now, that's just not a state of affairs that should be accepted. That is a version of "you'll own nothing" where I decidedly would be unhappy considering the price of their bike.
Rival ebike maker Cowboy is making an app[0] that supports some VanMoof bikes and they say it will support more models in future. Meanwhile, you can download your bike's encryption key and passcode from this other website[1].
It appears likely that as long as you have this info, third-party apps like Cowboy's or others will be able to work. But getting the info relies on VanMoof's servers being up, so if you have a VanMoof bike I recommend downloading yours ASAP just in case.
FWIW, I have been using a VanMoof Electrified X2 in Tokyo for about 4 years. Great bike, but glitchy software. The bike plays sound effects like "unlock" at random inappropriate time, and the app on the phone frequently displays useless/incomprehensible alerts.
But one of the good things about VanMoof is that they have an API that already somewhat supported third party apps, like this one[3].
So I think as long as you save your bike's encryption key and passcode, you're good. I don't think your bike will be bricked after that. (But it could be otherwise, because those details are needed for a non-VanMoof app to control the bike, and if VanMoof disappears AFAIK there is no way to get them after that.)
[0]: https://bikey-app.cowboy.bike
[1]: https://keyexporter.grossartig.io
[2] https://moofer.app
It appears likely that as long as you have this info, third-party apps like Cowboy's or others will be able to work. But getting the info relies on VanMoof's servers being up, so if you have a VanMoof bike I recommend downloading yours ASAP just in case.
FWIW, I have been using a VanMoof Electrified X2 in Tokyo for about 4 years. Great bike, but glitchy software. The bike plays sound effects like "unlock" at random inappropriate time, and the app on the phone frequently displays useless/incomprehensible alerts.
But one of the good things about VanMoof is that they have an API that already somewhat supported third party apps, like this one[3].
So I think as long as you save your bike's encryption key and passcode, you're good. I don't think your bike will be bricked after that. (But it could be otherwise, because those details are needed for a non-VanMoof app to control the bike, and if VanMoof disappears AFAIK there is no way to get them after that.)
[0]: https://bikey-app.cowboy.bike
[1]: https://keyexporter.grossartig.io
[2] https://moofer.app
> Rival ebike maker Cowboy is making an app[0] that supports some VanMoof bikes and they say it will support more models in future.
That future can be very short. Cowboy is like Vanmoofs twin: proprietary parts, ridiculously VC funded, mountains of debt, more losses than revenue, no realistic path towards profitability, ... All that in a ebike boom decade. It's another bankruptcy waiting to happen.
That future can be very short. Cowboy is like Vanmoofs twin: proprietary parts, ridiculously VC funded, mountains of debt, more losses than revenue, no realistic path towards profitability, ... All that in a ebike boom decade. It's another bankruptcy waiting to happen.
Sounds plausible; their bikes look very similar to VanMoof, are priced in the same range, and have similar long delivery times.
My point was just that there are alternative apps for VanMoof bikes.
But maybe there is a more interesting point here. Maybe these Apple-esque ebikes designs that prize looking pretty and over repairability/interoperability have seen their moment pass?
My point was just that there are alternative apps for VanMoof bikes.
But maybe there is a more interesting point here. Maybe these Apple-esque ebikes designs that prize looking pretty and over repairability/interoperability have seen their moment pass?
> Meanwhile, you can download your bike's encryption key and passcode from this other website
I can't help but get "drink a verification can" vibes from that. At least they're making them available to people.
I can't help but get "drink a verification can" vibes from that. At least they're making them available to people.
The test of whether you own something is, can you sell it? If not — like movies and music you "bought" from Apple/Amazon etc. — you DON'T own them but rather rent.
I can live with a couple of songs no longer being downloadable and not resellable. I have my music "purchases" locally and can move them to a new device, back them up, etc.
But with a 4k EUR bike getting bricked, I'd be very unhappy.
But with a 4k EUR bike getting bricked, I'd be very unhappy.
The app is the least of your problem, you won't find parts for maintenance because a lot of them are custom.
This is true, but I mean, it's a bicycle. The maintenance in 4 years of daily-driving my VanMoof X2 has been some grease, and new brake pads. But as somebody else said in this thread, the battery is another matter. Once that goes, that's probably the end of its useful life as a commuter bike.
I thought about getting an extra battery now while I still can, but I (like, I suspect, most people buying these rather pricey bikes) probably don't plan to stick with e-bike tech that is 5+ years old. Since 2008, my 2019 VanMoof is my 4th ebike. And man is each generation hugely better than the last.
These ebikes basically improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great.
I thought about getting an extra battery now while I still can, but I (like, I suspect, most people buying these rather pricey bikes) probably don't plan to stick with e-bike tech that is 5+ years old. Since 2008, my 2019 VanMoof is my 4th ebike. And man is each generation hugely better than the last.
These ebikes basically improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great.
4 years is nothing tho, things starts breaking after 5, 10, 15 years this thing will be in an open air dump in Africa by then
> improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great.
idk what's great about that, what's greatly increased is waste, that's for sure. Everything is becoming increasingly more closed sourced and short lived
> improving at a similar rate as iPhones, and it's pretty great.
idk what's great about that, what's greatly increased is waste, that's for sure. Everything is becoming increasingly more closed sourced and short lived
This is probably a controversial opinion with those who've splashed out on one of them, but they essentially signed up for this to be e-waste as soon as it was no longer supported.
They might argue that the hardware is still perfectly capable, and I would agree, but this happens in other industries too, mobile phones, Sonos speakers, Wifi routers, and all sorts of other tech.
Anyone who buys anything that relies on the manufacturer's services to maintain the devices functionality signed up for this, whether they knew it or not.
In the home automation scene, many go out of their way to avoid devices with cloud services, or opt for devices with robust local APIs; those APIs may be removed at a later date, there is a real risk (See Google + Nest), but that's a risk they take.
I hope VanMoof, if necessary, will open up the local API, and given the money potentially available from owners, someone comes along and provides a suitable service, for a sustainable fee, which I assume buyers can afford, to maintain the functionality, and not relegate all of these bikes to the rubbish dump.
They might argue that the hardware is still perfectly capable, and I would agree, but this happens in other industries too, mobile phones, Sonos speakers, Wifi routers, and all sorts of other tech.
Anyone who buys anything that relies on the manufacturer's services to maintain the devices functionality signed up for this, whether they knew it or not.
In the home automation scene, many go out of their way to avoid devices with cloud services, or opt for devices with robust local APIs; those APIs may be removed at a later date, there is a real risk (See Google + Nest), but that's a risk they take.
I hope VanMoof, if necessary, will open up the local API, and given the money potentially available from owners, someone comes along and provides a suitable service, for a sustainable fee, which I assume buyers can afford, to maintain the functionality, and not relegate all of these bikes to the rubbish dump.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768413
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768703
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768930
And slightly related https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769328
And slightly related https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769328
I have avid interest in this topic, so I clicked all your links, but I think your comment would be more helpful to the broader audience if you included some reference what those links were about, like this:
1. "OpenMoof: Keeping VanMoof Bikes Mooving" → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769328
2. "Owners of troubled VanMoof e-bikes get their software keys from rival company" (arstechnica.com) → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769299
3. "Dutch e-bike maker VanMoof bankrupt" (reuters.com) → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768930
4. "VanMoof e-bikes is bankrupt" (theverge.com) → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768703
5. "VanMoof Bankruptcy Statement in Full" (reprehensiblecunts.com) -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768413
1. "OpenMoof: Keeping VanMoof Bikes Mooving" → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769328
2. "Owners of troubled VanMoof e-bikes get their software keys from rival company" (arstechnica.com) → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36769299
3. "Dutch e-bike maker VanMoof bankrupt" (reuters.com) → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768930
4. "VanMoof e-bikes is bankrupt" (theverge.com) → https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768703
5. "VanMoof Bankruptcy Statement in Full" (reprehensiblecunts.com) -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36768413
Sad news. I really wanted them to succeed. Their hardware engineering and design were top-notch. I test rode a VanMoof S3 three years ago and it was incomparable to other bikes. The integration of every single component into the frame and design was unparalleled, the smoothness of the automatic gear shifts felt magical.
But for me these features erred on the side of "nice-to-haves" and I ended up purchasing a "traditional" but more expensive e-bike that had the essential features I valued as a commuter (in New York); namely, more range for winter, more speed and torque going uphill, and a removable battery for carrying.
I had really hoped VanMoof could improve on these areas with newer models but it never happened. They continued to iterate on their strengths of beautiful integration using bespoke components, but didn't meaningfully improve any essential features at all. Currently, I have 3 commuter e-bikes in the family of different brands, drivetrain technologies, and price points. None come close to the level of polish and craftsmanship the VanMoof S3 had; if only it was better at being a bike.
Thinking more broadly about VanMoof's downfall, I think the commuter e-bike market might just too small and too competitive. Anecdotally, I still see about 10x more road bikes than commuter e-bikes today on the road, no change over the past 3 years, but the number of subscription e-bikes (citi bike) has skyrocketed.
But for me these features erred on the side of "nice-to-haves" and I ended up purchasing a "traditional" but more expensive e-bike that had the essential features I valued as a commuter (in New York); namely, more range for winter, more speed and torque going uphill, and a removable battery for carrying.
I had really hoped VanMoof could improve on these areas with newer models but it never happened. They continued to iterate on their strengths of beautiful integration using bespoke components, but didn't meaningfully improve any essential features at all. Currently, I have 3 commuter e-bikes in the family of different brands, drivetrain technologies, and price points. None come close to the level of polish and craftsmanship the VanMoof S3 had; if only it was better at being a bike.
Thinking more broadly about VanMoof's downfall, I think the commuter e-bike market might just too small and too competitive. Anecdotally, I still see about 10x more road bikes than commuter e-bikes today on the road, no change over the past 3 years, but the number of subscription e-bikes (citi bike) has skyrocketed.
VanMoof did improve technically with their S5. However they also mentioned they had a 10% return rate on their older S3, which probably was very costly.
Also they never had a dealer/service network like other brands have in Europe as they were B2C.
Your requirements (more range, more torque, removable battery) are specific to your region. As VanMoof is sold a lot in The Netherlands, a flat country where people make short trips, the bike specification actually made a lot of sense (bigger batteries add weight and cost and removable batteries make frames more bulky).
An alternative could be Cowboy.
Your requirements (more range, more torque, removable battery) are specific to your region. As VanMoof is sold a lot in The Netherlands, a flat country where people make short trips, the bike specification actually made a lot of sense (bigger batteries add weight and cost and removable batteries make frames more bulky).
An alternative could be Cowboy.
I would say that this company is a prime example why "right to repair" should be the default. Companies go bankrupt all the time but that should not mean the end of the product you bought and own for as long as you can fix thing yourself.
p.s. They mention they are "proud" of what they accomplished. In light of all the e-waste they have generated, I would dial that way down...
p.s. They mention they are "proud" of what they accomplished. In light of all the e-waste they have generated, I would dial that way down...
What do you mean? You have every right to repair your VanMoof; they not only didn't try to stop me, they actively encouraged me to do it myself or just go to a local bike shop every time I called them for service.
I know it's a common (and shitty) thing these days, but in this case, it isn't like the bikes are going to stop working.
I think this article sort of implied (without really saying) that would happen, but it won't. It's theoretically possible that you could "brick" a VanMoof bike by:
1. locking it with the VanMoof app
2. forgetting your hardware unlock code
3. not downloading your bike token/passcode, thus preventing third-party apps from connecting to it
4. waiting for VanMoof to be gone, so you could no longer get the bike details , and thus would never be able to use any third party app
...except that the hardware unlock code is only 3 digits, so you might be able to brute force that if you really wanted to (?)
It's possible you could get the bike locked to "0 power assist" setting, though, and never be able to change it, so that's why I strongly recommend all VanMoof bike owners to download their bike details[1] ASAP so that they can use third party apps to manage those things.
[1]: https://keyexporter.grossartig.io
I know it's a common (and shitty) thing these days, but in this case, it isn't like the bikes are going to stop working.
I think this article sort of implied (without really saying) that would happen, but it won't. It's theoretically possible that you could "brick" a VanMoof bike by:
1. locking it with the VanMoof app
2. forgetting your hardware unlock code
3. not downloading your bike token/passcode, thus preventing third-party apps from connecting to it
4. waiting for VanMoof to be gone, so you could no longer get the bike details , and thus would never be able to use any third party app
...except that the hardware unlock code is only 3 digits, so you might be able to brute force that if you really wanted to (?)
It's possible you could get the bike locked to "0 power assist" setting, though, and never be able to change it, so that's why I strongly recommend all VanMoof bike owners to download their bike details[1] ASAP so that they can use third party apps to manage those things.
[1]: https://keyexporter.grossartig.io
How does a 4000$+ ebike go bankrupt when they supposedly have too many orders? Is this a COVID supply chain problem or a management hiding real sales figures problem?
-edit- > VanMoof bikes, however, offload many of their configuration functions to a smartphone app and are much easier to unlock with a phone than manually
ouch
-edit- > VanMoof bikes, however, offload many of their configuration functions to a smartphone app and are much easier to unlock with a phone than manually
ouch
The S3 was the real problem.
VanMoof released the VanMoof S3 in 2020, which was €2000 (the predecessor was close to €3000). The S3 sold very well because of its low price and great design, but its build quality was really subpar. In fact, insiders say around 10% of all S3 bikes had defects that required repairs (note that 1 - 2% is standard for a typical bike model).
So in the end, VanMoof sold many cheap bikes which was great for their market share but not so great for their margins. Then, on top of this, they had to repair many of the bikes they sold which ate into their margins even more. Lastly, because of supply chain issues, they weren't able to offset the repair cost by fixing the S3 issues and quickly selling many proper units to new customers.
VanMoof released the VanMoof S3 in 2020, which was €2000 (the predecessor was close to €3000). The S3 sold very well because of its low price and great design, but its build quality was really subpar. In fact, insiders say around 10% of all S3 bikes had defects that required repairs (note that 1 - 2% is standard for a typical bike model).
So in the end, VanMoof sold many cheap bikes which was great for their market share but not so great for their margins. Then, on top of this, they had to repair many of the bikes they sold which ate into their margins even more. Lastly, because of supply chain issues, they weren't able to offset the repair cost by fixing the S3 issues and quickly selling many proper units to new customers.
They did not use standard components, but designed everything themselves, so they could control the repair market and everything. Like Apple does.
If as a result 10%-20% of bikes sold need repairs, while still in the warranty period, you're not going to make a lot of profit.
If as a result 10%-20% of bikes sold need repairs, while still in the warranty period, you're not going to make a lot of profit.
'How does a 4000$+ ebike go bankrupt when they supposedly have too many orders? Is this a COVID supply chain problem or a management hiding real sales figures problem?'
Possibly both but if you have significantly more customers than product you're going to run out of cash eventually.
Not bike related but I work with a UK retailer that has this problem with some high value products shipped from China/Vietnam. When they do get stock they start to discount it almost immediately, I assume they are either crazy or that their cash-flow is more critical than profit.
Possibly both but if you have significantly more customers than product you're going to run out of cash eventually.
Not bike related but I work with a UK retailer that has this problem with some high value products shipped from China/Vietnam. When they do get stock they start to discount it almost immediately, I assume they are either crazy or that their cash-flow is more critical than profit.
> if you have significantly more customers than product you're going to run out of cash eventually
I don't get this. Why do you run out of cash simply because there's more demand than you have production capacity? I would think having open orders doesn't cost money.
I don't get this. Why do you run out of cash simply because there's more demand than you have production capacity? I would think having open orders doesn't cost money.
I have no idea how their business works internally, but it's very easy for physical goods vendors who extend into supply chain verticals to end up with all their capital tied up in hardware.
Not being able to ship due to a missing critical piece (in this you could see a situation where they have everything ready and in storage but waiting on battery supply) is a real problem and can leave your business functionally bankrupt (zero liquid capital) while having lots of assets.
Not being able to ship due to a missing critical piece (in this you could see a situation where they have everything ready and in storage but waiting on battery supply) is a real problem and can leave your business functionally bankrupt (zero liquid capital) while having lots of assets.
Linus (Tech Tips) has a video talking about cash flow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
Because they can't charge the customers before shipping the product. Their operational costs may be higher than what they earn from the amount they can ship.
Scare liquidity is an issue all across europe rn, stemming from high cost of capital
For companies relying on investor money to stay afloat, yes. And not just in Europe, that goes for everyone everywhere.
If demand exceeds capacity, as was the case with VanMoof apparently, cash flow should be positive so. Any capacity incrwases, assuming there is real demand, are also finacable through traditional means.
Unless of course, you screw up your supply chain, as a manufavturing / hardware company cash flow is to a huge extent driven by that. And yes, at 4k a bike, a company has an easier time staying cash positive that at, say, 200.
If demand exceeds capacity, as was the case with VanMoof apparently, cash flow should be positive so. Any capacity incrwases, assuming there is real demand, are also finacable through traditional means.
Unless of course, you screw up your supply chain, as a manufavturing / hardware company cash flow is to a huge extent driven by that. And yes, at 4k a bike, a company has an easier time staying cash positive that at, say, 200.
There are few of these e-bike companies which are basically marketing, branding, sales sitting on top of Chinese suppliers.
I think they are getting squeezed and soon you will be buying Chinese brands (like Xiaomi) sold from chain electronics stores or their own website.
It has already happened with e scooters.
I think they are getting squeezed and soon you will be buying Chinese brands (like Xiaomi) sold from chain electronics stores or their own website.
It has already happened with e scooters.
These bikes were actually made in Taiwan.
The one thing I never understood about the appeal of these bikes is the battery: it cannot be removed, so you cannot easily take the battery inside and charge it overnight like you can with all other bikes. This is a major inconvenience.
I feel the same. The fear with removable batteries is that they can be stolen. But every time my brother comes with this bike, he has to bring it inside to charge it. Not very nice indeed
I ended up buying an Analog Motion e-bike in 2020 when they were doing a kickstarter. It’s the best, but the company has really struggled despite all the demand. We invested a small amount in the equity crowd funding round off the back of the quality of the bike, but supply chains for small players seem almost impossible.
Seeing the above always worried me about van moof. Yes they were better funded, but they were still in the same market, plus their bikes had loads of smart crap. analog motion bikes are just single speeds with motors and a few nice touches - belt drive, disc brakes. If they went under nothing would change.
Seeing the above always worried me about van moof. Yes they were better funded, but they were still in the same market, plus their bikes had loads of smart crap. analog motion bikes are just single speeds with motors and a few nice touches - belt drive, disc brakes. If they went under nothing would change.
I had a tandem upgraded with a BionX electric motor. About 18 months later, the motor lost its punch and I asked the bike shop for help. But then BionX went bankrupt and the shop couldn't fix the tandem. They removed the electric motor and refunded me.
The basic problem is that their bikes are not good value for money. They look cool, but they are very basic bikes (despite various bells and whistles) and they have lots of custom parts. I think the VanMoof bikes looked really nice and had an interesting design. But unless you live in Amsterdam, they were not a good choice for a bike and definitively not a bike you can depend on.
They are only suitable for riding on fairly flat roads. Which is OK for many cities, but it does limit their usefulness. They are what I think of as "novelty bikes". Sure, they are good looking and if you only need to ride around a mostly flat city with good road surfaces, you'll be fine. But a lot of places are not like that.
I got tired of riding low quality "novelty bikes" last year and got a hardtail with a Bosch CX motor. Bikes are expensive, so when you do buy a bike and, like me, you are going to ride it all year round, you need something that has "mainstream" parts. Because you are going to wear stuff out. This winter, despite cleaning my bike often (and using appropriate lubricants) I wore out chain, cassette, brakes and a couple of bearings. I rode 10-20 miles per day with lots of elevation both directions) just for work and errands, and on top of that I used the bike for exercise. In anything from 35C and sunshine to snow storms and temperatures as low as -25C (on studded tyres). More often that not the coastal weather where I live is wet cold and hovering somewhere around 0C.
Given my use I expect to spend $200-300 per year on stuff that wears out. The real question is how long the really expensive bits, like the motor is going to last. I fully expect to have to tear down the motor in a couple of years to have the bearings replaced and possibly deal with water ingress. But I'm not too worried because given the huge deployed base of Bosch CX motors there is already significant knowledge base on how to deal with problems.
If you want to make a good bike that can be a workhorse, you have to start with high volume parts in all the places that are subject to intensive wear. You need something that can be replaced at sensible cost and that bicycle repair shops are likely to have in their inventory. This is especially true for components like the motor. Within 10 minutes bike ride from where I live there are almost half a dozen bike shops that can service my bike. The closest just up the road, located beside the grocery store I visit every day. If I have a problem I can usually get it fixed within a day.
Choose bicycles like you architect robust systems. Go for good, well known parts that a lot of people know how to deal with. Don't get fancy unless what you can offer is significantly better under real conditions.
In this sense, VanMoof was never a competitive proposition. It was marginal at best. If you want to design a new bike, give careful thought to the system architecture. I think this presents a brilliant learning opportunity.
They are only suitable for riding on fairly flat roads. Which is OK for many cities, but it does limit their usefulness. They are what I think of as "novelty bikes". Sure, they are good looking and if you only need to ride around a mostly flat city with good road surfaces, you'll be fine. But a lot of places are not like that.
I got tired of riding low quality "novelty bikes" last year and got a hardtail with a Bosch CX motor. Bikes are expensive, so when you do buy a bike and, like me, you are going to ride it all year round, you need something that has "mainstream" parts. Because you are going to wear stuff out. This winter, despite cleaning my bike often (and using appropriate lubricants) I wore out chain, cassette, brakes and a couple of bearings. I rode 10-20 miles per day with lots of elevation both directions) just for work and errands, and on top of that I used the bike for exercise. In anything from 35C and sunshine to snow storms and temperatures as low as -25C (on studded tyres). More often that not the coastal weather where I live is wet cold and hovering somewhere around 0C.
Given my use I expect to spend $200-300 per year on stuff that wears out. The real question is how long the really expensive bits, like the motor is going to last. I fully expect to have to tear down the motor in a couple of years to have the bearings replaced and possibly deal with water ingress. But I'm not too worried because given the huge deployed base of Bosch CX motors there is already significant knowledge base on how to deal with problems.
If you want to make a good bike that can be a workhorse, you have to start with high volume parts in all the places that are subject to intensive wear. You need something that can be replaced at sensible cost and that bicycle repair shops are likely to have in their inventory. This is especially true for components like the motor. Within 10 minutes bike ride from where I live there are almost half a dozen bike shops that can service my bike. The closest just up the road, located beside the grocery store I visit every day. If I have a problem I can usually get it fixed within a day.
Choose bicycles like you architect robust systems. Go for good, well known parts that a lot of people know how to deal with. Don't get fancy unless what you can offer is significantly better under real conditions.
In this sense, VanMoof was never a competitive proposition. It was marginal at best. If you want to design a new bike, give careful thought to the system architecture. I think this presents a brilliant learning opportunity.
A bike with DRM? It deserved to die.
There's no DRM. That seems to be a recurring misconception here. It wasn't open-source or anything, but there were already third-party apps for the bike. It's more a matter of the parts that were proprietary (motor, battery, electric clutch) becoming hard to replace once they fail.
(As mentioned above, though, you'll need to download your bike's details while VanMoof is still alive in order to be able to connect third party apps to it.)
(As mentioned above, though, you'll need to download your bike's details while VanMoof is still alive in order to be able to connect third party apps to it.)
[1] https://www.vanmoof.com/en-SE/peace-of-mind