The Mystery of Sudden Genius(psychologytoday.com)
psychologytoday.com
The Mystery of Sudden Genius
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/202403/the-mystery-of-sudden-genius
72 comments
This scenario is mostly the plot of the movie Phenomenon. It doesn't end well for the main character (played by John Travolta) so you might want to get checked out.
Maybe more boring, when trying to create I find I spend lots of time in a miserable morass where I feel like my "normal" brain is trying to solve creativity like it's a hard procedural problem, and progress is slow and the result is always uninspired. If I keep at it I eventually "punch through" and it's like an avalanche of sudden ideas and mental connections flow through and out of me and I get into a zone of unreal hyper productivity for a while.
Later on when reviewing what I did during those moments while in a normal brain state, I find I can't replicate, edit, or really do much to alter what I created until I can punch through again -- I have basically no ability to replicate what I just made. The level of detail, the inspiration, the raw creativity is just not my normal mode. It's just not on tap.
It also leaves me really hungry after a couple hours of doing it. I suspect there's some kind of interesting energy recruitment my body is doing in my brain, sensing it's working hard, and trying to support the emergency with sugars, or oxygen or something.
Maybe more boring, when trying to create I find I spend lots of time in a miserable morass where I feel like my "normal" brain is trying to solve creativity like it's a hard procedural problem, and progress is slow and the result is always uninspired. If I keep at it I eventually "punch through" and it's like an avalanche of sudden ideas and mental connections flow through and out of me and I get into a zone of unreal hyper productivity for a while.
Later on when reviewing what I did during those moments while in a normal brain state, I find I can't replicate, edit, or really do much to alter what I created until I can punch through again -- I have basically no ability to replicate what I just made. The level of detail, the inspiration, the raw creativity is just not my normal mode. It's just not on tap.
It also leaves me really hungry after a couple hours of doing it. I suspect there's some kind of interesting energy recruitment my body is doing in my brain, sensing it's working hard, and trying to support the emergency with sugars, or oxygen or something.
Huh. The closest (extremely weak version) of this with me is I'll try to remember something and fail to. Then, hours or even days later, the answer will pop into my head out of nowhere, as if my brain ran a background search daemon which finally returned the answer.
ha! I get that sometimes too. I suspect it's fairly common which manifests in people having great ideas in the shower or somewhere similar when their attention isn't focused.
It’s something you can train yourself to get better at. At least in my experience:
1. Get a tough problem
2. Read all the surrounding information about it. If a solution doesn’t appear then it’s distraction time
3. Go do something completely unrelated for a while. I like to tinker with something mechanical but listening to music or doing exercise both work. Anything where you can get a decent flow going works for me.
Quite often just after I have finished with the distraction I get a good idea about the original problem. It used to be about 50/50 whether this would work for me but it’s now around 80/20.
Like anything it takes practice and you need to find the right distraction for you
1. Get a tough problem
2. Read all the surrounding information about it. If a solution doesn’t appear then it’s distraction time
3. Go do something completely unrelated for a while. I like to tinker with something mechanical but listening to music or doing exercise both work. Anything where you can get a decent flow going works for me.
Quite often just after I have finished with the distraction I get a good idea about the original problem. It used to be about 50/50 whether this would work for me but it’s now around 80/20.
Like anything it takes practice and you need to find the right distraction for you
But, the shower is when their attention is relatively the most focused. There are few distractions in the shower, making it one of the very few times westerners are unable to choose not to "be here now."
I actually did get checked out by a series of doctors at Mount Sinai (After months of nightmare with the VA) who did a battery of tests including an ambulatory EEG, CT scan, MRI, etc. and came back with: “Basically your brain looks perfect so this is confusing.”
This was after two severe tonic colic seizures, which put me in the hospital with a half bitten tongue and dislocated shoulders.
The initial thinking was epilepsy, but after the ambulatory EEG, and absolutely no history of epilepsy or anything of approaching epilepsy, she’s basically said “everything looks healthy, I have no clue what’s going on, so call me if you feel like you’re dying again.”
This was after two severe tonic colic seizures, which put me in the hospital with a half bitten tongue and dislocated shoulders.
The initial thinking was epilepsy, but after the ambulatory EEG, and absolutely no history of epilepsy or anything of approaching epilepsy, she’s basically said “everything looks healthy, I have no clue what’s going on, so call me if you feel like you’re dying again.”
I'd start with first, are you sleeping 6+ hours every night, and then go from there. The brain seems to get pushed into fits by sleep deprivation.
I’m good now.
It’s been 8 months since any issues and I’m healthier than I’ve ever been - considering thatI was a collegiate athlete 20 years ago that’s not nothing
It’s been 8 months since any issues and I’m healthier than I’ve ever been - considering thatI was a collegiate athlete 20 years ago that’s not nothing
Phenomenon was meant to be a propaganda film for Scientology, which claims that it's adherents can unlock latent mental capacity. That the main character dies in the end is supposed to represent persecution of their "religion" by the establishment.
That may be so, but what if it's actually possible?
Contact with mysterious phenomenon that seems to communicate with the witness is not unheard of and many people seem to undergo an intelligence boost afterwards, even if short lived. This is often considered a religious experience while more secular minded people might attribute it to something like a ufo experience.
I recognize that. However my perspective is that it was 100% in my head and I’m not unique or special or chosen or whatever nonsense fallacies that typically come with these experiences
Not some exogenous event or mystical miracle or whatever it was just pure chemistry and electricity.
Not some exogenous event or mystical miracle or whatever it was just pure chemistry and electricity.
> I know it was in my head
This awareness is technically called "insight", as in "insight into the weirdness of your beliefs". Generally, people suffering from psychosis don't have insight. They genuinely believe they're experiencing real things. So in this way at least it seems like you're healthy.
That being said, there's a wide range of psychotic episodes, and feelings of uniqueness, specialness, or being chosen aren't always present.
This awareness is technically called "insight", as in "insight into the weirdness of your beliefs". Generally, people suffering from psychosis don't have insight. They genuinely believe they're experiencing real things. So in this way at least it seems like you're healthy.
That being said, there's a wide range of psychotic episodes, and feelings of uniqueness, specialness, or being chosen aren't always present.
I am definitely not saying any of those interpretations of the event are correct (I'm a skeptic) but I do find it interesting that some people do seem to have a period of increased focus and productivity afterwards.
Sounds like a manic episode. Symptoms include extreme grandiosity and hallucinations. Often a manic person will believe he is God, is in contact with God, or has a special part to play in history.
God, Government, and Aliens: the schizo trinity
And talking donkeys if you're Muhammad! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya%CA%BDf%C5%ABr
And talking donkeys if you're Muhammad! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya%CA%BDf%C5%ABr
These days it's definitely atheists which are the most schizo w.r.t. searching for, or at least ruminating about, aliens, despite all evidence against it. Another very schizo atheist topic is AI (basilisks etc).
Could be their affinity for strong weed.
Could be their affinity for strong weed.
Having been through manic episodes, I concur.
Although it sounds somewhat similar to manic episodes keep in mind that they come with a depressive crash afterwards.
The brain is more complex than a mere mental condition which we still don’t fully understand.
The brain is more complex than a mere mental condition which we still don’t fully understand.
There are "nervous breakdowns" which only happen once. Many historical figures have had them.
But on your larger point about fuzzy diagnoses I agree with you. In my experience, diseases like schizophrenia are better understood as a large number of unique diseases under a single heading. Saying "I have schizophrenia" is like saying "I own a dog". While an accurate statement, there are many different kinds of dogs, and their behavior varies widely. Schizophrenia is the same.
If you've spent time with groups of people with schizophrenia, you'll see that there's an extremely wide range of outcomes. I think the wide range of outcomes may be explained by there being a number of different diseases.
But on your larger point about fuzzy diagnoses I agree with you. In my experience, diseases like schizophrenia are better understood as a large number of unique diseases under a single heading. Saying "I have schizophrenia" is like saying "I own a dog". While an accurate statement, there are many different kinds of dogs, and their behavior varies widely. Schizophrenia is the same.
If you've spent time with groups of people with schizophrenia, you'll see that there's an extremely wide range of outcomes. I think the wide range of outcomes may be explained by there being a number of different diseases.
Not always. Unipolar mania used to be in previous revisions of the DSM and bipolar type 1 can exhibit as mania without intervening depression.
So you consider it a flash of genius because it led you to produce a paper that trivializes the relevance of scarcity (to greatly simplify)?
Without commenting on the merit of the thesis, people get flashes of insight all the time that seem totally genius to them. Regardless of what you wrote, I would wait until it's actually validated by further scientific consensus before calling that any kind of vindication of the phenomenon of sudden genius.
And your other example is that ... you produced art? As in, the famously capricious, easily duped community? That may not be the slam dunk you think it is.
With that said, you definitely were productive in some sense, and I don't mean to trivialize that in anyway -- it's certainly more than I accomplished over the same time! It's just ... "genius" is a stretch. By the same token, I could claim I unconvered something major with my "fish would be bad swimming instructors" idea:
http://blog.tyrannyofthemouse.com/2023/05/chatgpt4-refines-m...
Without commenting on the merit of the thesis, people get flashes of insight all the time that seem totally genius to them. Regardless of what you wrote, I would wait until it's actually validated by further scientific consensus before calling that any kind of vindication of the phenomenon of sudden genius.
And your other example is that ... you produced art? As in, the famously capricious, easily duped community? That may not be the slam dunk you think it is.
With that said, you definitely were productive in some sense, and I don't mean to trivialize that in anyway -- it's certainly more than I accomplished over the same time! It's just ... "genius" is a stretch. By the same token, I could claim I unconvered something major with my "fish would be bad swimming instructors" idea:
http://blog.tyrannyofthemouse.com/2023/05/chatgpt4-refines-m...
It said the paper you hadn't written yet would be good? Or it said it in a sense of encouragement to go through with or publish it?
My interpretation is it was a Culture drone trying to influence you to influence humanity into joining the fold by returning to traditional human social structures of community, cooperation & sharing.
My interpretation is it was a Culture drone trying to influence you to influence humanity into joining the fold by returning to traditional human social structures of community, cooperation & sharing.
Basically what I felt was that draft 1 was on the right track - which had the core of my argument
What I have linked is draft 3
I expect that I’ll have a proper falsifiable theory on paper by the end of the year (Is my hope)
My best guess based on what I know of the brain is that there was likely some amplified activation of memories linked to a heavy period of intentional visualizing (I’m a very visual thinker) cascading around my visual cortex as I was in a resting state
What I have linked is draft 3
I expect that I’ll have a proper falsifiable theory on paper by the end of the year (Is my hope)
My best guess based on what I know of the brain is that there was likely some amplified activation of memories linked to a heavy period of intentional visualizing (I’m a very visual thinker) cascading around my visual cortex as I was in a resting state
Have you written about your experience or contacted any researchers? I'd assume some scientist somewhere would love to know more.
I haven’t cause I don’t really think there’s anything there other than artifacts of brain activity.
The machine elves desperately trying to contact humanity: "That's it, no more revealing ourselves to rational people. We need to go back to concentrating on the hippies."
It's articles like this that gives psychology a bad name and turns it into a pseudoscience. All they did was assemble some -anecdotes of people who developed hobbies following some sort of traumatic event but this is not enough to establish either the diagnosis of an actual syndrome or prove the acquisition of new skills. These anecdotes have as much credibility as alien abductions, remote viewing, out of body experiences or other self-reported paranormal experiences. So-called savant syndrome could instead be explained by people who have autism or other disabilities having enough free time to hone in on a certain hobby obsessively, such that to outsiders it seems like they are a savant, not that they possess special mental abilities (except for Kim Peek).
From a young age, Logothetis took an interest in his father’s work, devouring the weekly shipping newsletter and analyzing the market. He soon took the helm, becoming CEO by age 19. He remembers every number, every quantity, every measurement, every price that passed through his ledger. “The East Cape, a ship we delivered in 1993, was 482,000 cubic feet, built in 1975, and leased for $416,000 a month,” Logothetis says. “It doesn’t require effort to retrieve this. It’s just there.”
This could instead be explained by having a IQ , not savant syndrome. People
From a young age, Logothetis took an interest in his father’s work, devouring the weekly shipping newsletter and analyzing the market. He soon took the helm, becoming CEO by age 19. He remembers every number, every quantity, every measurement, every price that passed through his ledger. “The East Cape, a ship we delivered in 1993, was 482,000 cubic feet, built in 1975, and leased for $416,000 a month,” Logothetis says. “It doesn’t require effort to retrieve this. It’s just there.”
This could instead be explained by having a IQ , not savant syndrome. People
> This could instead be explained by having a IQ
I respectfully disagree. Reasoning and memory is not the same.
If you happen to actually become aquaintaned to more than one of this type of people during your lifetime you will (maybe) note that their abilities in memory do not need to be correlated to their abilities in reasoning. I have personally met more than a handful with extraordinary memory skills, and while some would probably be able to achieve a "high IQ" score others would certainly not. The latest I've met did not even pass public school reading tests [0].
As an aside, obtaining a high IQ score is done using a standardized procedure and as such it is only a measure of one very specific class of reasoning skills, not "general intelligence" per se
[0] First hand, he told me
----
Edit to add this: Here I specifically relate to the memory-equilibrists due to the parent comment emhasizing one such specimen. Others in the savant spectrum (it is a spectrum) do have abilities that would correlate better with the measure known as "IQ".
I respectfully disagree. Reasoning and memory is not the same.
If you happen to actually become aquaintaned to more than one of this type of people during your lifetime you will (maybe) note that their abilities in memory do not need to be correlated to their abilities in reasoning. I have personally met more than a handful with extraordinary memory skills, and while some would probably be able to achieve a "high IQ" score others would certainly not. The latest I've met did not even pass public school reading tests [0].
As an aside, obtaining a high IQ score is done using a standardized procedure and as such it is only a measure of one very specific class of reasoning skills, not "general intelligence" per se
[0] First hand, he told me
----
Edit to add this: Here I specifically relate to the memory-equilibrists due to the parent comment emhasizing one such specimen. Others in the savant spectrum (it is a spectrum) do have abilities that would correlate better with the measure known as "IQ".
>"This could instead be explained by having a IQ , not savant syndrome. People"
Can he remember what is essentially thousands of numerical data points? I would think that kind of photographic memory would be pretty similar to savantism? Also what do you mean by "explained by having a IQ"? An IQ is just some test's measurement of our intelligence, so I don't know how that is relevant.
I am just as skeptical as you though.
Can he remember what is essentially thousands of numerical data points? I would think that kind of photographic memory would be pretty similar to savantism? Also what do you mean by "explained by having a IQ"? An IQ is just some test's measurement of our intelligence, so I don't know how that is relevant.
I am just as skeptical as you though.
Yeah I do think manic episodes can explain a lot of this.
> These anecdotes have as much credibility as alien abductions, remote viewing, out of body experiences or other self-reported paranormal experiences...
Those types of experiences are not the type of behaviour that is on topic here. Also, depending on perspective what you wrote may well be perceived as derogatory.
People suffering[0] from some degree of savant syndrome generally can display "non-normal" behaviour which is
1) observable, and
2) repeatable
[0] Yes, suffering. To quote the article
Those types of experiences are not the type of behaviour that is on topic here. Also, depending on perspective what you wrote may well be perceived as derogatory.
People suffering[0] from some degree of savant syndrome generally can display "non-normal" behaviour which is
1) observable, and
2) repeatable
[0] Yes, suffering. To quote the article
Injury, disease, or disability essentially “unlocks” the brain, leading a particular region to explode in functioning and flourishing.
The line between occultism and psychology is very thin in places.
I've been wondering if there was anyplace that could diagnosis autism savant syndrome. It may be a useful label to communicate who I am to people. I have my early mathematical biography at https://tetration.org/index.php/Biography.
>if there was anyplace that could diagnosis autism savant syndrome
Wouldn't most qualified psychiatrists working with autism (or adult autism) do? All it takes is diagnosis autism (what they do anyway) and being able to identify savant abilities (which is even easier).
Wouldn't most qualified psychiatrists working with autism (or adult autism) do? All it takes is diagnosis autism (what they do anyway) and being able to identify savant abilities (which is even easier).
If you have a moment, how do you deal with boredom when you are really really really smart? How do you deal with stress? How do you stay motivated?
I had a look at your writings, and was wondering if you saw any worthwhile ideas on here: https://www.timecube.space/
Which writings? Calling someone schizophrenic is pretty rude. I don't see anything confused about their site, but I'm not a mathematician.
No worthwhile ideas. Why, what worthwhile ideas do you see that reminds you of my writings?
wrycoder(3)
Some of Diana de Avila's art: https://dianadeavila.art/, https://www.dianadeavila.com/defineexclusives
I don't know, pretty "meh".
It's a shame there isn't a timeline. This appears to be the first image "boomerangs and blobs"? https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediu...
[deleted]
No way that was done by someone with no training. I call bullshit.
No training in what?
Also note that she mentioned „no formal training“. And she is a digital artist and knew how to code.
Also note that she mentioned „no formal training“. And she is a digital artist and knew how to code.
I missed all of that, thank you.
So that painting I my mind just went from "impossibly good for someone who's painting for the first time" to "mediocre".
So that painting I my mind just went from "impossibly good for someone who's painting for the first time" to "mediocre".
Yeah it kinda puts the article in a different light. It is also is worded in a way that sounds like she was actually painting on canvas, which doesn’t seem to be the case as I understand.
„She immediately began painting. She had no training in art. But her hands just knew what to do. “It was fulfilling to connect line and form. I let things be guided by intuition,” she says. Two hours later, the canvas was covered in splotches of teal, brown, and orange. She titled her first piece “Blobs and Boomerangs.”
„She immediately began painting. She had no training in art. But her hands just knew what to do. “It was fulfilling to connect line and form. I let things be guided by intuition,” she says. Two hours later, the canvas was covered in splotches of teal, brown, and orange. She titled her first piece “Blobs and Boomerangs.”
Definitely. "Splotches"
Lots of people make images like this as kids. You just draw overlapping shapes then use the paint bucket tool to fill in portions.
It mentions Rain Man and X-Men but misses the closer fit, Phenomenon (1996). But the word keeps cropping up, including in the subtitle.
This just smells foul; can't help but be sceptical. Diana de Avila sounds like an arist who crafted a story to sell her work, and George Logothetis sounds like a genius who was approched by Treffert and convinced that actually he's smart because he had an infection at the age of 2.
> In Treffert’s response to de Avila’s outreach, he called her story “compelling, and your artwork amazing.”
> “He was like a father figure to us weird circus people. He was the ringleader of this beautiful circle of giftedness,”
Treffert sounds like grade A manipulator, though not sure who's using who here.
> In Treffert’s response to de Avila’s outreach, he called her story “compelling, and your artwork amazing.”
> “He was like a father figure to us weird circus people. He was the ringleader of this beautiful circle of giftedness,”
Treffert sounds like grade A manipulator, though not sure who's using who here.
It's not all lies. You can watch videos of Kim Peek who can memorise whole books and can answer questions from them but doesn't talk or act like normal people, Daniel Tammet who visualizes numbers, another guy who can sculpt and in a video he made a great looking horse with his bare hands in few minutes while the interviewer was talking but he is also not normal. There was another guy, don't remember if he was a savant but in a video they flew him over a city and he drew all buildings with there windows etc on a large sheet of paper. Just saying that not all of these people are fake.
But we're not discussing ordinary savants like Peek. Such savants often hone their skills over decades, sometimes inventing their own algorithms or tricks and memorizing vast reams of data. Those are amazing, but not sudden. To analogize: Arnold Schwarzenegger was an amazing bodybuilder, but you can understand how he was possible; but it would be even more amazing if a couple people out there woke up one day and literally overnight they had turned into Arnold, and you would very much like to know how that was possible.
I saw a demonstration of this in this very old documentary once. Not sure what the latest research says but it doesn't seem this kind of situation is entirely impossible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYAfmyMZe5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYAfmyMZe5g
Kim Peek is an outlier. Most of these 'savants' seem like disabled people who have a lot of free time to work on something obsessively, not that they possess special mental abilities.
> they flew him over a city and he drew all buildings with there windows etc on a large sheet of paper
Steephen Wiltshire, Autistic Savant and Artist [0,1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wiltshire
[1] https://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/gallery/originals
Steephen Wiltshire, Autistic Savant and Artist [0,1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wiltshire
[1] https://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/gallery/originals
I'm not saying this guy is one of them, but there's a special place in hell for adults who target gifted children. Many of the victims of Catholic priests were intelligent, sensitive children, children who became involved in church because they were interested in learning about life's meaning.
I remember Scientific American running a similar story 10-15 years ago.
Can't comment on these individuals, but the phenomenon is real.
Can't comment on these individuals, but the phenomenon is real.
From the article, about Derek Amato:
> He loved music and had played drums as a kid, but nothing more.
And from a Guardian article from 2012 about him:
> I'd played guitar in a couple of little rock bands when I was young but I'd never progressed beyond that on any instrument. Yet here I was, producing a fluid melody I'd never heard before.
> He loved music and had played drums as a kid, but nothing more.
And from a Guardian article from 2012 about him:
> I'd played guitar in a couple of little rock bands when I was young but I'd never progressed beyond that on any instrument. Yet here I was, producing a fluid melody I'd never heard before.
Agree. The whole thing reeks of being a pseudoscience or irreproducible. The 'replication crisis' is a thing for a reason.
Not sure I would call it "genius" or the emergence of latent "talent", terms which suggest a positive judgment of the work produced... Rather it seems like obsession. It is a very curious phenomenon, and I wonder if it can tell us anything useful about the psychology of motivation and interest. Calling it "sudden genius" feels clickbaity.
> Sudden genius
Readers: "You're saying there's still a chance I'm a genius???"
Readers: "You're saying there's still a chance I'm a genius???"
Meh. How come all of these "savants" are in disciplines where there either is no right or wrong (painting) or there is but it's just a matter of practice in applying an algorithm until you're perfect (calendars)? Where are all the savants that actually produce breakthrus in science? Oh that's right that actually requires knowledge and understanding. It's almost as if these people are inventing something to feel special about.
Urist has come under a strange mood and claimed a jeweler's workshop.
Lovely reference. As an aside, it seems like jazz is a real example of this kind of thing. The organizational structure of a live jazz band specifically rewards inspiration, strange moods, and claiming the workshop.
I had been having months of focal (non-tonic clonic yet) seizures that I thought were panic attacks for about 5 months
I had a massive psychiatric event in Dec 2022 and started writing that paper
I was in the bath tub the same night and saw a hallucinated blue orb for lack of better term that “felt” like it was trying to communicate that the paper was good
So very interesting! The brain is crazy and I have spent a lot of time studying it and it never ceases to amaze.
Oh and I forgot, my art style got really honed in and I was more prolific in 6 months than I had been in years, leading to my first art show in 15ish years:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CzC8HoZOApQ/?igsh=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng...