Thousands of Istanbul citizens walking to protest government(facebook.com)
facebook.com
Thousands of Istanbul citizens walking to protest government
https://www.facebook.com/enginayaz1/posts/10100625543118373
89 comments
Gotta add, before this; people used twitter really well during the protests.
They tweeted street names where help is needed. They tweeted doctor / laywer phone numbers. Called Veterinarians for stray animals affected from police gas. Shared ways to deal with gas (like using acid reflux medicine on your face)
So, the government must be really afraid now.
They tweeted street names where help is needed. They tweeted doctor / laywer phone numbers. Called Veterinarians for stray animals affected from police gas. Shared ways to deal with gas (like using acid reflux medicine on your face)
So, the government must be really afraid now.
This has been going around on twitter:
Turkey dial up internet access +46850009990 or +492317299993 or +4953160941030 User:telecomix Password:telecomix
Probably won't help with filtering attempts, but should help somewhat if you go dark.
Turkey dial up internet access +46850009990 or +492317299993 or +4953160941030 User:telecomix Password:telecomix
Probably won't help with filtering attempts, but should help somewhat if you go dark.
That were all empty teargas cans,
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLn89fZCIAA0Gwd.jpg
doing this,
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLevznnCQAEOR1j.jpg
and made in
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLnx94jCIAE8yQ9.jpg
This man is pronounced dead, but maybe he survived with major injuries. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbRgMqkSvRg
This man is pronounced dead, but maybe he survived with major injuries. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbRgMqkSvRg
it s like a scene from Avatar. Turks are revolting to stop the killing of 75 year old trees, police reacts violently and protests turn against the government.
Trees are leading the people..
Trees are leading the people..
And protesters are destroying stuff around. Fantastic.
No protestor is doing any harm around. These are Civil disguised cops trying to make reason for their aggression. Been there seen it.
By the way I can't believe we still have blind believers in RTE's virtual democracy.
By the way I can't believe we still have blind believers in RTE's virtual democracy.
Sure. They burn stuff for warming up.
http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/izmir_yangin_yeri-1135843
Assuming you know Turkish:
"...Gediz Üniversitesi'nin Çankaya Yerleşkesi binasının camlarını kıran ardından Şair Eşref Bulvarı üzerindeki Mc Donald binasını da taş yağmuruna tutan eylemciler, Talatpaşa üzerindeki Sevinç Pastanesi'nin önündeki yolu kapattı."
Assuming you know Turkish:
"...Gediz Üniversitesi'nin Çankaya Yerleşkesi binasının camlarını kıran ardından Şair Eşref Bulvarı üzerindeki Mc Donald binasını da taş yağmuruna tutan eylemciler, Talatpaşa üzerindeki Sevinç Pastanesi'nin önündeki yolu kapattı."
These fires are barricading against cops. Police is trying to kill. Using unbelievable force and still you say having some garbage fires are looting?
By the way I say I have seen civil cops looting and protesters preventing them. But sure main stream media is the best news source.
Edit:
I believe these are also protesters trying to kill wounded cops? https://twitter.com/Kadirkaymakci/status/340791432891748352/...
By the way I say I have seen civil cops looting and protesters preventing them. But sure main stream media is the best news source.
Edit:
I believe these are also protesters trying to kill wounded cops? https://twitter.com/Kadirkaymakci/status/340791432891748352/...
Conspiracy assertions like "trying to kill us" and "civil cops looting" make me no longer want to continue this thread.
Conspiracy? Yeah I have an unbelievable photoshop ability.. http://25.media.tumblr.com/ec39e9f4899e57c0d20ee6777c706c6d/... http://25.media.tumblr.com/9d9be489e91384e67e0709923d80834f/... http://25.media.tumblr.com/85b02a038c893bb3aecf82a7f08c7d6b/... http://25.media.tumblr.com/839abf4bc4709268dea470b3efbd6a19/... http://24.media.tumblr.com/4b9c64f573891519df441fb2665479fe/... http://24.media.tumblr.com/ff7423721c396bea87d0ad6ca86e1bca/... http://25.media.tumblr.com/b93996ce1ac8e1c065fcd006f9d2bdaf/... http://24.media.tumblr.com/34473d61e1310ecaa6b9d4104941630d/... http://25.media.tumblr.com/152f04b33dfc749d9330d06156e53037/... http://24.media.tumblr.com/629ff449dd6e268bdbd16f4ff4e0a89c/... http://24.media.tumblr.com/2dfad9145b36fe427bdb5adecc95b1da/... http://24.media.tumblr.com/7606851a4219d0695dfa1072ddb57282/... http://25.media.tumblr.com/37814ed78bbc6fedd99b16c2b00c539b/... http://25.media.tumblr.com/10a8aec55104afb106b6a28daf677266/...
Police using excessive force? Perhaps. Some people are standing against pressurized water and gas shells expecting nothing will happen? Absolutely.
These pictures proves nothing on your assertions "they are trying to kill us" and "civil police looting". Good luck on your protests.
These pictures proves nothing on your assertions "they are trying to kill us" and "civil police looting". Good luck on your protests.
You not being in those streets wouldn't have the faintest idea how it feels; and meanwhile, you didn't even offer a SHRED of evidence for "protesters are destroying stuff around". You kind of make me sick, actually.
[edit: I am sorry for that last bit. Such dismissal of (even emotional reactions to) police brutality (by people facing it), makes me kinda sick. I haven't been on many demonstrations, but even in Germany I've seen cops gleefully rush, shove around and arrest utterly harmless school kids for protesting Chirac when he visited; I wouldn't want to be a protester in Turkey, that's for sure, and godspeed to all involved. Still, sorry for attacking you personally, that was uncalled for and is part of the problem.]
[edit: I am sorry for that last bit. Such dismissal of (even emotional reactions to) police brutality (by people facing it), makes me kinda sick. I haven't been on many demonstrations, but even in Germany I've seen cops gleefully rush, shove around and arrest utterly harmless school kids for protesting Chirac when he visited; I wouldn't want to be a protester in Turkey, that's for sure, and godspeed to all involved. Still, sorry for attacking you personally, that was uncalled for and is part of the problem.]
I have given a link and quotes from a newspaper. I am not a supporter of government, police or later protesters. That's it.
In my books there is a (huge) difference between destruction for the sake of destruction, and making barricades.
Read the part in the news I quoted.
Police let people reach Gezi Park and mainstream media started video. After a few minutes Gezi Park started burning. And turns out it was a gas cannister firing a building thats put there for the new building operation.
What happened then is people, the one you are accusing of looting is used all their supply water and solutions to control and the fire.
We are trying to loot and make fires and destroy.
What happened then is people, the one you are accusing of looting is used all their supply water and solutions to control and the fire.
We are trying to loot and make fires and destroy.
Nothing to say more. I'll just walk on the streets to die.
I'm afraid you're a turkish version of this:
http://cs315425.vk.me/v315425324/23a8/YO1aa12hSp0.jpg
http://cs315425.vk.me/v315425324/23a8/YO1aa12hSp0.jpg
Naah. I would expect better. Maybe this: http://i.imgur.com/tCp90.gif
Coincidentally The cartoon guy in the link you sent look a lot like one of the protester (I assumed he is not police): http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/izmir_yangin_yeri-1135843
look at the third picture.
Coincidentally The cartoon guy in the link you sent look a lot like one of the protester (I assumed he is not police): http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/izmir_yangin_yeri-1135843
look at the third picture.
There is a gallery
http://imgur.com/gallery/WJnz6 #direngeziparki
please take a look at this to get the cruelty and violence exposed by the police:
Help us spread the freedom cry of the people of Turkey !
http://imgur.com/gallery/WJnz6 #direngeziparki
please take a look at this to get the cruelty and violence exposed by the police:
Help us spread the freedom cry of the people of Turkey !
I'm Turkish. Let me try to shed some light on what's going on.
What started as a small protest to prevent the demolishing of a park to build a mall on it turned into full-blown riots after some stunning displays of brutality by the police. The commentators are saying that the Turks had lots of pent-up anger over the years and this allowed them to let it all out. The result is the largest series of riots Turkey has seen in recent years. At least in my lifetime, and I'm 28. I don't live there right now, but my Facebook feed is full of updates from friends and sometimes it moves faster than I can follow. There's lots of people, especially in Istanbul and the capital city of Ankara, but also in others including Izmir, Bursa, Antalya and my hometown, Adana.
And it means fuck-all.
People on the Internet - Reddit, especially - are sensationalizing the hell out of it and blowing it out of proportion, saying the government is about to fall. The reality? The government has not even acknowledged what is going on. Prime Minister Erdogan probably received some updates from his staff and then went to bed. He must be up now having his breakfast. He knows his regime is not in any danger, especially since he gutted the military over the past decade. The irony is that those same people who cheered his efforts to eliminate the military's influence in politics (saying it's "undemocratic") are the ones who are protesting on the streets now. I want to ask them, "how does it feel when you destroy your own insurance against fascism, idiots?" But it doesn't really matter. Hindsight is 20/20.
I certainly hope I'm wrong. But regardless of what happens, I know one thing: if there's a Hell, Erdogan will burn in it.
What started as a small protest to prevent the demolishing of a park to build a mall on it turned into full-blown riots after some stunning displays of brutality by the police. The commentators are saying that the Turks had lots of pent-up anger over the years and this allowed them to let it all out. The result is the largest series of riots Turkey has seen in recent years. At least in my lifetime, and I'm 28. I don't live there right now, but my Facebook feed is full of updates from friends and sometimes it moves faster than I can follow. There's lots of people, especially in Istanbul and the capital city of Ankara, but also in others including Izmir, Bursa, Antalya and my hometown, Adana.
And it means fuck-all.
People on the Internet - Reddit, especially - are sensationalizing the hell out of it and blowing it out of proportion, saying the government is about to fall. The reality? The government has not even acknowledged what is going on. Prime Minister Erdogan probably received some updates from his staff and then went to bed. He must be up now having his breakfast. He knows his regime is not in any danger, especially since he gutted the military over the past decade. The irony is that those same people who cheered his efforts to eliminate the military's influence in politics (saying it's "undemocratic") are the ones who are protesting on the streets now. I want to ask them, "how does it feel when you destroy your own insurance against fascism, idiots?" But it doesn't really matter. Hindsight is 20/20.
I certainly hope I'm wrong. But regardless of what happens, I know one thing: if there's a Hell, Erdogan will burn in it.
Let me get this straight - you think military influence on a government is what can preserve democracy? Because you think that in the case of a government that is heavily military based, that military part of the government would be for people?
You're free to believe that, I suppose, but you'd be ignoring most of the world's history. Revolutions happen when normal people rise up against the government, no the military. The military is usually busy shooting those people.
You're free to believe that, I suppose, but you'd be ignoring most of the world's history. Revolutions happen when normal people rise up against the government, no the military. The military is usually busy shooting those people.
In most of the world, revolutions come bottom up. In Turkey, they came top down. It was the military that toppled the "sultan" and established the parliamentary system / Turkish Republic. And later it was a former general who set up the multi-party system (and didn't get elected).
I know it sounds off, but what the Founding Fathers did for the US, the generals did for Turkey. Not a very healthy one I agree, but at least they established whatever form of democracy Turkey has today.
I know it sounds off, but what the Founding Fathers did for the US, the generals did for Turkey. Not a very healthy one I agree, but at least they established whatever form of democracy Turkey has today.
Turkey was ruled by one party until 1946 like the ones in Soviet Union. After 4-5 years of the multi party election of the first prime minister that "honest" and "non-corrupt government" hung the prime minister after the coup. The last soft coup in 1998 costed Turkey by one estimation $300Bn. Wanna talk corruption, talk the military and all the state investments...
> It was the military that toppled the "sultan" and established the parliamentary system / Turkish Republic
The Young Turk Revolution, while supported by one army corp didn't topple the Sultan. The Sultan (Mehmed VI) was deposed by the Grand National Assembly of the Turkish Republic, a political body.
The Young Turk Revolution, while supported by one army corp didn't topple the Sultan. The Sultan (Mehmed VI) was deposed by the Grand National Assembly of the Turkish Republic, a political body.
(I am re-posting my comment on about this article on this thread to make it shown since the comments got much larger for the top entry too long. Apologies if I am breaking any rule.)
This article is grossly misleading. Papers and televisions are showing what is going on, one can read from internet [11, 12, 13], and express his opinion. I live in States and even I can access all these information from here. Turkey is a democracy with multi party system similar to France since 1946. Unfortunately the minority group who held the power in Turkey for decades lost their control of most of the government and state after years of corruption with 2002 elections. In 2001 Turkish economy experienced a similar economic meltdown after a "soft" coup of the people who support and make the current demonstrations. The economic repercussions was so deep it effected almost everyone similar to what has been going on in Greece and Spain. Since then the new government handled economy and democratic process so well, even in the current terrible economic situation of the world Turkey managed to become the fastest growing economy in Europe. Turkey has made the last debt payment to IMF couple of weeks ago. For the first time her existence Turkish economy's credit rating became investment grade by Moody's on May 17th this year[1]. Most importantly the clash with the Kurdish minority ended with a new peace process. This is by far the most important achievement of the current government given the 30 years of history of violence in South Easy of Turkey. Over 40K people have died since it started in 1980.
The person who wrote this article and those demonstrators are hoping to show their anger towards the government akin to Egypt's Tahrir Square demonstrations. However this is all reading it backwards. Current government is popularly supported by the people and the support has increased with each consecutive poll since 2002, leading to 50% [3] of the popular vote the last time. This government is leading a commission and effort to write a new constituition to raise the standards of human rights in Turkey. This is one of the biggest selling point to end the Kurdish violence since they now feel their rights will be protected better in the future. Current constitution is put together in 1980 by the people who engineered the last "hard" coup in Turkey [5], a coup literally executed with brute force, guns and tanks. With this government the efforts to get into EU increased tremendously [6] and actually it has been their strategy to balance the power in Turkey against Military's long standing anti-democratic ambitions and practices.
Recent demonstrations at a park in Istanbul got bigger by exploiting the grossly wrong police brutality. Unfortunately where there is demonstration be it in US [7], Spain [8] or Greece [9], in any country the police is very heavy handed. Otherwise the park that is in middle of the city is part of project [10] that will transform the area and close all the motor vehicle traffic and allow only pedestrians. This is going to be done by diverting traffic to underground roads that will be build as part of the project. Decision for the project taken by the people who was elected including members both from ruling and opposition party, and was voted unanimously.
Author of this article and those demonstrators are supporting the old regime. A regime that dictates certain ideology build around a cult leader like the ones in former Soviet Union, China and North Korea. Ours is Ataturk. You have to think like them, act like them, speak like them, live like them. During my mandatory military service I was forced to memorize who is Ataturk which was a list of 10 items that goes like this: 1) Ataturk was the best person in the world 2) Ataturk was best statesman in the world 3) Ataturk is the best military leader in the world. And thise list goes on and on...
Let me give you an example of what this people againts. Can you buy liquor after certain hours in States? Can you walk with an open beer can, alcohol bottle? No, because in States, varying by state, shops can not sell alcohol after 10pm or 2am. For example in England even places where liquor served as part of the service has to close by 1am. When this government made a similar, banning sale of alchol from 10pm to 6am, these people made a big noise. This is one of the arguments they have been telling during these demonstrations.
edit-1: I added some more references.
[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-16/turkey-raised-to-in... [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/25/turkey-justice-central-ku... [3] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13740147 [4] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-10/turkey-s-kurtulmus-... [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%C3%A9tat [6] http://www.cfr.org/turkey/turkeys-eu-bid/p8939 [7] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/UC-Davis-pepper-spraye... [8] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot-polic... [9] http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-police-brutality-2011-6 [10] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opean5HeR-8 [11] http://gundem.milliyet.com.tr/basbakanlik-a-yurumek-isteyen/... [12] http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/23426620.asp [13] http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/gosterilerde_ilk_can_kaybi...
This article is grossly misleading. Papers and televisions are showing what is going on, one can read from internet [11, 12, 13], and express his opinion. I live in States and even I can access all these information from here. Turkey is a democracy with multi party system similar to France since 1946. Unfortunately the minority group who held the power in Turkey for decades lost their control of most of the government and state after years of corruption with 2002 elections. In 2001 Turkish economy experienced a similar economic meltdown after a "soft" coup of the people who support and make the current demonstrations. The economic repercussions was so deep it effected almost everyone similar to what has been going on in Greece and Spain. Since then the new government handled economy and democratic process so well, even in the current terrible economic situation of the world Turkey managed to become the fastest growing economy in Europe. Turkey has made the last debt payment to IMF couple of weeks ago. For the first time her existence Turkish economy's credit rating became investment grade by Moody's on May 17th this year[1]. Most importantly the clash with the Kurdish minority ended with a new peace process. This is by far the most important achievement of the current government given the 30 years of history of violence in South Easy of Turkey. Over 40K people have died since it started in 1980.
The person who wrote this article and those demonstrators are hoping to show their anger towards the government akin to Egypt's Tahrir Square demonstrations. However this is all reading it backwards. Current government is popularly supported by the people and the support has increased with each consecutive poll since 2002, leading to 50% [3] of the popular vote the last time. This government is leading a commission and effort to write a new constituition to raise the standards of human rights in Turkey. This is one of the biggest selling point to end the Kurdish violence since they now feel their rights will be protected better in the future. Current constitution is put together in 1980 by the people who engineered the last "hard" coup in Turkey [5], a coup literally executed with brute force, guns and tanks. With this government the efforts to get into EU increased tremendously [6] and actually it has been their strategy to balance the power in Turkey against Military's long standing anti-democratic ambitions and practices.
Recent demonstrations at a park in Istanbul got bigger by exploiting the grossly wrong police brutality. Unfortunately where there is demonstration be it in US [7], Spain [8] or Greece [9], in any country the police is very heavy handed. Otherwise the park that is in middle of the city is part of project [10] that will transform the area and close all the motor vehicle traffic and allow only pedestrians. This is going to be done by diverting traffic to underground roads that will be build as part of the project. Decision for the project taken by the people who was elected including members both from ruling and opposition party, and was voted unanimously.
Author of this article and those demonstrators are supporting the old regime. A regime that dictates certain ideology build around a cult leader like the ones in former Soviet Union, China and North Korea. Ours is Ataturk. You have to think like them, act like them, speak like them, live like them. During my mandatory military service I was forced to memorize who is Ataturk which was a list of 10 items that goes like this: 1) Ataturk was the best person in the world 2) Ataturk was best statesman in the world 3) Ataturk is the best military leader in the world. And thise list goes on and on...
Let me give you an example of what this people againts. Can you buy liquor after certain hours in States? Can you walk with an open beer can, alcohol bottle? No, because in States, varying by state, shops can not sell alcohol after 10pm or 2am. For example in England even places where liquor served as part of the service has to close by 1am. When this government made a similar, banning sale of alchol from 10pm to 6am, these people made a big noise. This is one of the arguments they have been telling during these demonstrations.
edit-1: I added some more references.
[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-16/turkey-raised-to-in... [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/25/turkey-justice-central-ku... [3] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13740147 [4] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-10/turkey-s-kurtulmus-... [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%C3%A9tat [6] http://www.cfr.org/turkey/turkeys-eu-bid/p8939 [7] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/UC-Davis-pepper-spraye... [8] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot-polic... [9] http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-police-brutality-2011-6 [10] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opean5HeR-8 [11] http://gundem.milliyet.com.tr/basbakanlik-a-yurumek-isteyen/... [12] http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/23426620.asp [13] http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/gosterilerde_ilk_can_kaybi...
> Revolutions happen when normal people rise up against the government, no the military.
because when the military does that it's called a coup not a revolution and takes 2 days not 2 years.
but I too didn't get his point about the military.
because when the military does that it's called a coup not a revolution and takes 2 days not 2 years.
but I too didn't get his point about the military.
Probably he meant that the military for securing a secular state, when it looses influence on the government you'll get Islamic government.
The particular history of Turkish civil-military relations is something you should read into, because it's incredibly interesting. The military has historically been the guard of the official state ideology, ie Ataturk-ism, which is secular, nationalist, and in opposition to Islamic rule. If you think the greatest threat to democracy is theocratic Islamic rule, and that Erdogan's broadly Islamic (though democratically elected) government is likely to lead to that, then yes, it makes total sense to talk about the Army as the guarantor of democracy.
military influence in turkish gov't doesn't preserve "democracy", rather the military kicks out any political party that doesn't fall in line with the country's hard-line secular ideals.
[deleted]
Do you have any context about the Turkish republic's history? I would suggest you read up a bit before condemning his views. The people view the Military as preserving the secular ideals of the country. The military is held in a very positive light, and is generally considered non-corrupt and honest. The governments on the other hand have been anything but. The current government has been curtailing military power, and at the same time severely limiting freedom of press. It also has been pushing an Islamic agenda, slowly and surely moving the country away from its secular roots. Turkish secularists are seeing this as a move away from democracy, rather than towards. People are being jailed for having any kind of anti-government views. For example, recently someone was jailed for re-tweeting a tweet which criticized the current administration. So yes, people do view the military as a savior for democracy.
From reading what people have been saying it seems like the military steps in when the it feels the government over steps the will of the people (secular ideals of the country). However, since this has to happen from time to time, it isn't really taking an active role in persevering democracy per se and mostly leaving it up to ordinary people through political processes (until they step in).
From what has happend so far pertaining to this situation, it seems like that is true: https://twitter.com/rmncr/status/340525959784562688 (translation via google: "Information: Gumussuyu Military Hospital citizen soldiers dealing mask. Thanks! #direngeziparkı #occupygezi")
I wonder what it would be like in the US if National Guard medics were to show up and pass out aid to people during OWS and related protests…
From what has happend so far pertaining to this situation, it seems like that is true: https://twitter.com/rmncr/status/340525959784562688 (translation via google: "Information: Gumussuyu Military Hospital citizen soldiers dealing mask. Thanks! #direngeziparkı #occupygezi")
I wonder what it would be like in the US if National Guard medics were to show up and pass out aid to people during OWS and related protests…
People often forget that armies have an awful lot of soldiers. Those soldiers have friends and families. They kinda represent a hell of a lot of the population. That can have quite some effect. Not always, but often enough. Commanders do have to have at least an eye on what the rank and file want and are prepared to do, or they risk being turned on.
... thus China's policy (e.g. in Tienanmen Square) of only using troops from other regions to put down protests.
> a small protest to prevent the demolishing of a park to build a mall
isn't it just a tip of the iceberg of what's recently going on in Istanbul? resettlements, demolishions of old architecture to replace with commerce, etc. I remember a local complaining about it when I've been there 2 years ago, since then I've heard more and more about how they are destroying neighborhoods. shame, it's an amazing city.
isn't it just a tip of the iceberg of what's recently going on in Istanbul? resettlements, demolishions of old architecture to replace with commerce, etc. I remember a local complaining about it when I've been there 2 years ago, since then I've heard more and more about how they are destroying neighborhoods. shame, it's an amazing city.
Park protest was just the tipping point. Current government has been slowly transitioning the country into Islamic rule. There were numerous things that preceded this, ban on abortion, ban on alcohol, jailing journalists/MPs, forcing religion on children, restrictions on TV basically all TV stations are owned by the government ( and not a single one mentioned the protests last night btw or the bombing that recently happened imagine no one reporting 9/11), and not to mention every recent protest met the same police brutality.
That is a gross exaggeration.
Ban on abortion was there before, is still there. My take, I support ban on abortion except some cases.
Ban on alcohol: They ban consumption in public places. it is becoming close to the Many Eurepean counties level. But not there yet.
Jailing journalists: Most of them involved with PKK (A terrorist organisation acknowledged by US and EU) directly. However, I agree the ones did not do action should have never been kept. There is a list: http://www.cnnturk.com/2012/guncel/03/07/tutuklu.gazeteciler...
Forcing Religion on children: If you mean mandatory religion and ethics lessons, it was there forever. This is bogus. My take, Governemnet should never deal with Religion.
Restrictions on TV: was there almost two decade ago.. RTUK was founded much before this government. Similar organisations exist in US and EU.
Recent events.. Well I blame government for being distasteful. Their architectural projects are far from beautiful. Also I dont understand their fetish on Ottoman-ism. There was no point resurrecting that stupid building on that park area. However, I also see protests more like opposition sides play ground. They find every opportunity to make things a show. That project was there for years and now it is time to protest? please. Also, a side note, if you stand on pressurized water like an idiot you fall and bleed.
Edited: Some wordings
Ban on abortion was there before, is still there. My take, I support ban on abortion except some cases.
Ban on alcohol: They ban consumption in public places. it is becoming close to the Many Eurepean counties level. But not there yet.
Jailing journalists: Most of them involved with PKK (A terrorist organisation acknowledged by US and EU) directly. However, I agree the ones did not do action should have never been kept. There is a list: http://www.cnnturk.com/2012/guncel/03/07/tutuklu.gazeteciler...
Forcing Religion on children: If you mean mandatory religion and ethics lessons, it was there forever. This is bogus. My take, Governemnet should never deal with Religion.
Restrictions on TV: was there almost two decade ago.. RTUK was founded much before this government. Similar organisations exist in US and EU.
Recent events.. Well I blame government for being distasteful. Their architectural projects are far from beautiful. Also I dont understand their fetish on Ottoman-ism. There was no point resurrecting that stupid building on that park area. However, I also see protests more like opposition sides play ground. They find every opportunity to make things a show. That project was there for years and now it is time to protest? please. Also, a side note, if you stand on pressurized water like an idiot you fall and bleed.
Edited: Some wordings
Forcing Religion on children: No I mean Imams acting as guidance counsellors. Children refusing to take religion classes not given their grade cards.
Restrictions on TV: You do not /can not threaten to cancel a TV show as a prime minister because the show portrait a Ottoman sultan in a way he did not like (I do not watch tv I don't know the exact details but that’s basically what he said.) Still not a single government run TV station (basically all but two) said anything about the riots. How is that not a restriction?
Jailing journalists: I am talking about the ones that did not do anything but jailed. And half the army is in JAIL most not even formally accused for years and the people affiliated from the terrorist organization are called as witnesses imagine bin ladin as your star witness, and tell me this is not f.cked up.
Restrictions on TV: You do not /can not threaten to cancel a TV show as a prime minister because the show portrait a Ottoman sultan in a way he did not like (I do not watch tv I don't know the exact details but that’s basically what he said.) Still not a single government run TV station (basically all but two) said anything about the riots. How is that not a restriction?
Jailing journalists: I am talking about the ones that did not do anything but jailed. And half the army is in JAIL most not even formally accused for years and the people affiliated from the terrorist organization are called as witnesses imagine bin ladin as your star witness, and tell me this is not f.cked up.
Imams acting as guidance counsellors: If there is a demand, I see no problems. No body is forcing people to do that. Edit: Also it would be nice for Imams to give some consultation they are virtually doing nothing. Your second sentence sounds like a stupid rumor. Good citation please. Again, To me whole minister of religion can go away (which was founded by Ataturk).
TV: Well blame press for their cowardliness. Threatening means nothing. Things go court, you win or loose. If they had some balls, they would broadcast whatever they want. Wake up, press is a business. Plus note, I see a lot of coverage in gazettes. But not following TV for years, so cannot comment on that.
Jailing Journalists: Then you are talking about 10-20 people. It is a shame they are there. But would have been same in 1930s,40s,50s,60s,70s..
TV: Well blame press for their cowardliness. Threatening means nothing. Things go court, you win or loose. If they had some balls, they would broadcast whatever they want. Wake up, press is a business. Plus note, I see a lot of coverage in gazettes. But not following TV for years, so cannot comment on that.
Jailing Journalists: Then you are talking about 10-20 people. It is a shame they are there. But would have been same in 1930s,40s,50s,60s,70s..
I'll begin by saying I do not believe in a personal god. Well Imams as guidance counsellors are extremely dangerous because unlike Christianity Islam never had the enlightenment period it is still stuck in middle ages. That's why you have people getting stoned in 2013 or girls getting gang raped and then executed for blasphemy search wikipedia for references. This is line of thinking these kids will be guided to and when you have 80k mosques vs 60k schools it will get out of hand really fast. Just the other day there was a protest where people literally kissed each other they were attacked by by people telling them this a muslim country and them, the religious youth won't let that.
You can not go to court that’s the problem. Checkout today’s papers for Turkey sabah vatan zaman etc. You don't need to know Turkish you won't see a single picture of the riots. Here is the cover of one of the biggest sabah [1].
[1]https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/94205...
You can not go to court that’s the problem. Checkout today’s papers for Turkey sabah vatan zaman etc. You don't need to know Turkish you won't see a single picture of the riots. Here is the cover of one of the biggest sabah [1].
[1]https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/94205...
Haven't you diverted the subject completely? You basically say you see islam as a big threat so people must be stopped doing anything according to it. I am just not in your way of thinking here and debate has become harder and harder.
About the press, I will tell again. Mass media is a business. Some goes with Government, some goes with opposition. People like to read-watch whatever satisfies their own bias/beliefs. Other newspapers you probably like to read (Vatan, Cumhuriyet etc) is no better than examples you gave. Whining does not change this fact.
Also, C'mon. I see plenty of coverage in all newspapers.
About the press, I will tell again. Mass media is a business. Some goes with Government, some goes with opposition. People like to read-watch whatever satisfies their own bias/beliefs. Other newspapers you probably like to read (Vatan, Cumhuriyet etc) is no better than examples you gave. Whining does not change this fact.
Also, C'mon. I see plenty of coverage in all newspapers.
ok, but uhmm, I was asking about recent developments in Istanbul, not islamization.
btw abortion is forbidden in Poland, so is drinking on the street, and we have religion at primary school as well as other sorts of political and social influence by the church. and yeah, I know about how Turkey is leaning towards an islamic state and Ataturk is probably rolling in his grave, but your particular examples are not that radical to be honest. the Turk I talked to in Istanbul was a lecturer at an university and he told me they started replacing liberal principals with muslim ones, who obviously enforce their politics - penetrating the education system is serious stuff, not some beer ban (although I love beer).
btw abortion is forbidden in Poland, so is drinking on the street, and we have religion at primary school as well as other sorts of political and social influence by the church. and yeah, I know about how Turkey is leaning towards an islamic state and Ataturk is probably rolling in his grave, but your particular examples are not that radical to be honest. the Turk I talked to in Istanbul was a lecturer at an university and he told me they started replacing liberal principals with muslim ones, who obviously enforce their politics - penetrating the education system is serious stuff, not some beer ban (although I love beer).
Well, it is subtle really.
I suggest you to read the comments with a grain of salt (Including mine and that lecturer). People are politically biased and especially bias is strong against the current government. Always look at the cases not general statements. As you compare with Poland, we are not that different indeed. Perhaps even less restrictive in cases.
I lived in Istanbul from 1990 to 2003 then in 2009. I can say today, overall it is a more modern city. But problems like traffic persist. Government are starting to restructure parts of the city destroying old housings. It is a good move but I am skeptical on their artistic eye.
Also business as usual, construction companies close to government are better supported. This situation never changes.
I lived in Istanbul from 1990 to 2003 then in 2009. I can say today, overall it is a more modern city. But problems like traffic persist. Government are starting to restructure parts of the city destroying old housings. It is a good move but I am skeptical on their artistic eye.
Also business as usual, construction companies close to government are better supported. This situation never changes.
> Government are starting to restructure parts of the city destroying old housings. It is a good move but I am skeptical on their artistic eye.
I'd be careful. such 'improvements' cause resettling, thus spliting local communities, and such actions smell really bad, not only because it pumps up property prices but it also weakens the integrity of citizens.
booze/cigarette bans and abortion discussions are a great distractor. usually brought up when there is some shit to cover.
I'd be careful. such 'improvements' cause resettling, thus spliting local communities, and such actions smell really bad, not only because it pumps up property prices but it also weakens the integrity of citizens.
booze/cigarette bans and abortion discussions are a great distractor. usually brought up when there is some shit to cover.
Indeed, but honestly, if you see some parts of Istanbul you would `really` want re-structuring. After the boom of local immigrants in 80's a mess of ghetto-like places covered the city. In the first major earthquake, major loss of life is expected because of them. So, I sympathize the effort, but economics and architecture of it will not please almost anybody except construction companies.
But this is not about Istanbul. It is not about a park or a shopping mall, you hear about Istanbul because that’s where 1/4 of the country lives in there are protests in Ankara Izmir Eskisehir Adana etc.
> but your particular examples are not that radical to be honest.
Every time I head that I like to remind people that Iran in the 70s was not much different than your average European country [1].
https://www.google.com/search?q=iran+70s&num=50&safe...
> but your particular examples are not that radical to be honest.
Every time I head that I like to remind people that Iran in the 70s was not much different than your average European country [1].
https://www.google.com/search?q=iran+70s&num=50&safe...
>Every time I head that I like to remind people that Iran in the 70s was not much different than your average European country [1].
Exactly. And even Kabul in Afghanistan was a very modern town and somewhat of a hippy mecca in the 1960s, with women in miniskirts, alcohol, etc.
I've spent a good bit of time in Turkey in the past 15 years. Modern Turks who don't wish to live under strict Islamic rule are very much on guard, since they know exactly where Erdogan and his type want the country to be (hint: it looks a lot closer to Iran than France). And while I criticized them for being "undemocratic" when I first visited Turkey in 1998, I wasn't the one who was going to have to permanently live under a strict Islamic government if Erdogan succeeded (and he was thwarted the first time). But comparing Turkey now to Turkey back then, he is succeeding now, little by little. And once his "reforms" are in place, there will be no going back.
Exactly. And even Kabul in Afghanistan was a very modern town and somewhat of a hippy mecca in the 1960s, with women in miniskirts, alcohol, etc.
I've spent a good bit of time in Turkey in the past 15 years. Modern Turks who don't wish to live under strict Islamic rule are very much on guard, since they know exactly where Erdogan and his type want the country to be (hint: it looks a lot closer to Iran than France). And while I criticized them for being "undemocratic" when I first visited Turkey in 1998, I wasn't the one who was going to have to permanently live under a strict Islamic government if Erdogan succeeded (and he was thwarted the first time). But comparing Turkey now to Turkey back then, he is succeeding now, little by little. And once his "reforms" are in place, there will be no going back.
I know the modern history of Iran and could easily talk you out of this line of argument because the circumstances are completely different, but I don't feel like drifting this thread into that direction.
Iran was the favorite 'scare' object used by mostly status-quo governments in modern Turkish history.
This is a side question, but we're going very soon on a 2 week holiday in Kemer, is there any real danger for tourists? Not that I don't agree with what you're doing, but I'm traveling with a 3 year old and there's not enough information on this from news media.
It could be extremely dangerous. The sun is very hot in Antalya. You should at least make sure your 3 year old has sun cream and maybe a hat to keep the sun off them.
If it gets too hot I would suggest you try a Turkish ice cream called Mado (similar to Italian gelato), or maybe a cool drink.
Also be warned that the 3 year old might get a lot of attention and people may give him sweets or soft drinks, particularly ice cream vendors or resort bar staff. This could be extremely dangerous as he'll be spoilt rotten. Most Turks absolutely love kids.
If you think you can cope with these risks then you'll be fine, but I'd understand if you decide to reconsider :)
If it gets too hot I would suggest you try a Turkish ice cream called Mado (similar to Italian gelato), or maybe a cool drink.
Also be warned that the 3 year old might get a lot of attention and people may give him sweets or soft drinks, particularly ice cream vendors or resort bar staff. This could be extremely dangerous as he'll be spoilt rotten. Most Turks absolutely love kids.
If you think you can cope with these risks then you'll be fine, but I'd understand if you decide to reconsider :)
Mado is not an ice cream type, but merely a chain which sells ice cream. They usually do a good job do, you should try the ice cream.
I found this on the website of the American embassy in Ankara, Turkey.
http://turkey.usembassy.gov/sm_053113.html
Couple of things. First, Kemer is pretty far away from the main cities that have the protests. Second, it's a tourist spot, so things should be fairly calm there.
Good luck, I hope you enjoy your visit!
http://turkey.usembassy.gov/sm_053113.html
Couple of things. First, Kemer is pretty far away from the main cities that have the protests. Second, it's a tourist spot, so things should be fairly calm there.
Good luck, I hope you enjoy your visit!
There would be absolutely no danger -- Kemer is a wonderful touristy spot far far away from any stress/problem/riots. I'm sure you'll have a great time!
Danger would be similar to say going to Spain or a Greek island. Perhaps less.
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Military in Turkey was a tool of the Kemalist regime and vice versa. Erdogan did change that. You call it gutting the military and I call it the right thing to do and to tell the truth I am happy with the result. Let's just keep the military in a place where they belong and have them out when they are needed. I don't need the military to protect the regime, I need it to protect me and my land.
The incidents are nothing different than what the police were doing to Kurdish protesters or Muslim protesters (whom you probably call Islamists) protesting the turban ban across the universities and govt offices and the Kemalist regime's actions against Islam for the sake of secularism for almost 100 years. Erdogan himself knows this better than anyone else. He was thrown into prison just because he read a poem by the Kemalist regime, its laws and its bureaucracy.
Simply put some residents in Istanbul did not want the authorities to destroy Gezi Park and build a mall instead. They were harmless and friendly. Police went brutal and the protests turned into resistance. Police and authorities acted in a more fascist way. They ignored people's right to protest and the anger increased and spread across the country. In my opinion, Erdogan himself should come up, apologize and hold the police and other authorities responsible for their actions and make them answer in front of the law. This is fascism, this is authoritarianism and we do not want it. We've had enough of it.
The incidents are nothing different than what the police were doing to Kurdish protesters or Muslim protesters (whom you probably call Islamists) protesting the turban ban across the universities and govt offices and the Kemalist regime's actions against Islam for the sake of secularism for almost 100 years. Erdogan himself knows this better than anyone else. He was thrown into prison just because he read a poem by the Kemalist regime, its laws and its bureaucracy.
Simply put some residents in Istanbul did not want the authorities to destroy Gezi Park and build a mall instead. They were harmless and friendly. Police went brutal and the protests turned into resistance. Police and authorities acted in a more fascist way. They ignored people's right to protest and the anger increased and spread across the country. In my opinion, Erdogan himself should come up, apologize and hold the police and other authorities responsible for their actions and make them answer in front of the law. This is fascism, this is authoritarianism and we do not want it. We've had enough of it.
> He was thrown into prison
And the same guy, now prime minister jailed a world renowned pianist because he quoted a poem criticizing Islam (for foreigners technically court jailed him but they basically control that too) . Repeat after me Turkey as a country does not have a religion. You can believe in the power of the stone for all I care as long as you do not throw it on my head. Erdogan's actions are just doing that. I do not want to live in a country where kissing in public gets you arrested, homosexuals are hanged publicly or my daughter bought/sold like a common house good. When Erdogan criticizes something/someone (this went as far as calling the founding father a drunk which if it wasn't for him Turkey would be Christian country.) it is a democratic right when regular joe/journalist/MP does it he/she gets jailed.
And the same guy, now prime minister jailed a world renowned pianist because he quoted a poem criticizing Islam (for foreigners technically court jailed him but they basically control that too) . Repeat after me Turkey as a country does not have a religion. You can believe in the power of the stone for all I care as long as you do not throw it on my head. Erdogan's actions are just doing that. I do not want to live in a country where kissing in public gets you arrested, homosexuals are hanged publicly or my daughter bought/sold like a common house good. When Erdogan criticizes something/someone (this went as far as calling the founding father a drunk which if it wasn't for him Turkey would be Christian country.) it is a democratic right when regular joe/journalist/MP does it he/she gets jailed.
> which if it wasn't for him Turkey would be Christian country.
I really don't understand this? How would Turkey be a christian country if it wasn't for Ataturk? The Seljuks invaded Constantinople in 1453.
I really don't understand this? How would Turkey be a christian country if it wasn't for Ataturk? The Seljuks invaded Constantinople in 1453.
After WWI Turkey was divided between Christian countries France Greece England etc.
And that if that'd continued to be the case, Turkey would be a Christian country how?
These are the biggest protests I've seen in my lifetime, and I'm 34. People are reported wounded and dead, but no one knows how many.
I called my parents in Anatolia to ask them about the protests, and they didn't know there were any. Nothing on Turkish media about the protests. Stuff like this would have appeared on TV twenty years ago, but now they are all self-censored.
I called my parents in Anatolia to ask them about the protests, and they didn't know there were any. Nothing on Turkish media about the protests. Stuff like this would have appeared on TV twenty years ago, but now they are all self-censored.
My girlfriend is vacationing in Turkey and in Istanbul currently. I spoke with her last night and asked what was going on, she said a small amount of people were protesting trees being removed from a park. She said she believed it was a little more than that but nothing very extreme. It was interesting to hear her view after seeing it and then read the reddit/hn talk of government overthrow, rampant police brutality, and revolutions. I suppose it will be interesting to see what happens. And then uninteresting to see how few of these comments are relevant.
Both your girlfriend and enraged camel are correct. enraged camel will probably agree that at this stage that talk of government overthrow and revolution is ridiculous--he says as much in his earlier post. Compared to Egypt or Syria the reasons for the protests are indeed laughably quaint by comparison. The lead-up involved the gov's attempts at the demolition of a historical movie theater, building a third bridge across the Bosphorus, restricting alcohol sale laws which were previously laxer than most EU countries, and this whole Taksim park and historical ottoman barracks "reconstruction". As you can see, most of these things are mostly grievances you would see in western democratic countries. The most undemocratic component in the past years that has been the hallmark of previous governments as well--the lengthy jailtime for people being accused of abstract & extreme anti-government activity--has been mostly out of play in this most recent of public shit fits.
The main difference this time around, and the government's biggest mistake, has been the continued disproportionate police response...
The main difference this time around, and the government's biggest mistake, has been the continued disproportionate police response...
Your girlfriend is probably not near the same park where the protests started. People are literally rioting on the streets - there are photos all over Facebook and Twitter documenting this.
Certainly possible, she said Gezi park which I had heard come up so I just assumed.
More fascinating photos from several contributors: http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com
Follow the Turkish rabbit, my Millennial friends (or are you with Cypher: "Ignorance is bliss."). Knock, knock: http://www.oftwominds.com/blogmay13/politicizing-GenY5-13.ht...
More photos: http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/
I'd just noticed someone created this on my web app http://picsho.com/HYFSbbl1/
3.30am, Turkish capital. Hundreds of university students left their dormitories, passing through the working class neighborhood to join other protestors in front of the parliament building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=...!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=...!
Media is censoring the events. Only information channel is twitter. Right now , on the bosphorus bridge that connects asia and europe: https://twitter.com/tunaarman1/status/340667624432205825
The BBC is covering it pretty well.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22739423
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22739423
Unfortunately this is not happening with the NYTimes, only a story link in the "International" section towards the bottom of its front-page. Across the Atlantic the BBC, Le Figaro or der Spiegel have made it their top story.
massive. AFAIR pedestrians aren't even allowed on this bridge, correct?
other pic https://twitter.com/SerkanBALBAL/status/340711369617833984/p...
other pic https://twitter.com/SerkanBALBAL/status/340711369617833984/p...
Yes they are not allowed. The people from the biggest district on Asian side are walking to the European side.
Summary in english
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=...!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=...!
3G works as the cellular providers maintain their own internet structure. However they deployed signal jammers to protest locations.
So.. We are basically fucked. Media outlets are still running cooking shows.