The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system(economist.com)
economist.com
The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21636033-united-states-needs-overhaul-its-law-enforcement-system-americas-police-trial
144 comments
When people fixate on the untaxed ciagarettes thing, what's often going on is an implicit assumption that once someone has an interaction with the police, it's just inevitable that the police will summarily execute them.
That's stupid. We can debate the laws too, but you should be demanding police that enforce the laws with due process and respond to threats proportionally. If you're thinking, "well, once the police suspect someone of violating regulations, of course they're going to kill him" then we're never going to get anywhere.
That's stupid. We can debate the laws too, but you should be demanding police that enforce the laws with due process and respond to threats proportionally. If you're thinking, "well, once the police suspect someone of violating regulations, of course they're going to kill him" then we're never going to get anywhere.
When police fixate on the criminal thing, what's often going on is an implicit assumption that once someone has an interaction with a suspect, it's just inevitable that the suspect will attack.
See how that works?
As for the rest, go look up Warren vs. District of Columbia. The police are not there to serve and protect.
See how that works?
As for the rest, go look up Warren vs. District of Columbia. The police are not there to serve and protect.
Then programmers are not there to write good software, firefighters are not there to fight fires, doctors are not there to cure diseases, etc.
There is a huge difference between being "there" to do something, and going to prison or paying out a massive judgement because you weren't successful.
There is a huge difference between being "there" to do something, and going to prison or paying out a massive judgement because you weren't successful.
No, read the case: they are literally not required to do their jobs--in contrast with the other professions you listed.
Sigh.
The word "duty" as used in the case is a term of art in tort law. It doesn't just mean you have a generic obligation to do your job, as it does in common parlance, but it means you can be legally liable for someone's damages in a tort lawsuit.
If programmers had a "duty" to do their jobs, most software companies would have been sued out of existence. Software companies would get sued over every bug that caused people to lose time or money, and would be liable not just for the purchase price of the software, but if they were found to be negligent in writing-in that bug, would be liable for the actual damage suffered.
The word "duty" as used in the case is a term of art in tort law. It doesn't just mean you have a generic obligation to do your job, as it does in common parlance, but it means you can be legally liable for someone's damages in a tort lawsuit.
If programmers had a "duty" to do their jobs, most software companies would have been sued out of existence. Software companies would get sued over every bug that caused people to lose time or money, and would be liable not just for the purchase price of the software, but if they were found to be negligent in writing-in that bug, would be liable for the actual damage suffered.
Thanks for the clarification.
It actually seems quite plausible that he was innocent: the cops were there for other reasons, saw him and knew him to have a history of selling cigarettes, and engaged him as such. None were found on his person.
Several eye witnesses say that he was not selling cigarettes when he was arrested. The cops suspected him because of his previous history of selling cigarettes.
As far as I know, he was guilty of doing that in the past. He was killed in the process of being arrested for suspicion of doing it again.
Why exactly is selling single cigarettes illegal?
Legal constraints of selling tobacco require a licensed vendor to sell them in licensed packages/quantities. Eric Garner wasn't licensed, and single cigarettes aren't allowed to be sold in the US.
Fairly petty crimes, but crimes.
Fairly petty crimes, but crimes.
You can buy single cigarettes in many bars. (Don't know if it's legal though.)
Interesting. I've never seen that. The packaging thing may be a state to state restriction, because I've never been to a bar that sold cigarettes in quantities less than a pack.
Taxes.
You can do a lot of things to the government and get away with it, but the second you take their money all hell breaks loose.
You can do a lot of things to the government and get away with it, but the second you take their money all hell breaks loose.
It's tax evasion. They buy them in Jersey or something and import them into NYC illegally. They can't just sell packs of cigarettes over the counter because they lack a tax-stamp or something.
Edit: I mean, it's for the children of course. /s
Edit: I mean, it's for the children of course. /s
Taxes on packs of cigarettes are very high in New York. So people smuggle in packs or cartons from neighboring states and sell them under the table.
Until this story I didn't realize how expensive cigarettes are now in New York. They're $13-14 for a pack of 20. So people sell them as singles for $1 each. Likely brought in from lower-taxed areas so the profit margin is higher.
I've heard cigs sell for $5 a pack in South Carolina, which doesn't add on taxes at all, so you can see how much the taxes add up.
EDIT- changed price in SC based on googling.
I've heard cigs sell for $5 a pack in South Carolina, which doesn't add on taxes at all, so you can see how much the taxes add up.
EDIT- changed price in SC based on googling.
I dont know for sure but i think they typically come from contraband cigarettes (where taxes have not been paid and, as others point out, without required license). It'd be like selling whiskey shots on a street corner.
Strangely not illegal: making and marketing a toxic product that has killed literally tens of millions of people.
Alcohol? </sarcasm>
Truth is, pretty much everything is toxic at some point of consumption or another. Deciding where to draw the line is not black & white to me
Truth is, pretty much everything is toxic at some point of consumption or another. Deciding where to draw the line is not black & white to me
How about also ending grand juries altogether (or at least in cases of potential homicide)? It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury).
In addition, the prosecutors' powers need to be curtailed. Such crimes should always be charged, regardless of what the prosecutor wants. If there is doubt, bring in an outside prosecutor like the article suggests.
In addition, the prosecutors' powers need to be curtailed. Such crimes should always be charged, regardless of what the prosecutor wants. If there is doubt, bring in an outside prosecutor like the article suggests.
I'm inclined to agree about limits on discretion in these cases. You can't take back homicide, so it's better to hold a trial automatically and air the entire issue out. In cases of justifiable homicide, the justification will be much stronger for having been challenged and considered.
The English jurist Lord Hewart said it best: 'Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Sussex_Justices,_ex_p_McCar...
The English jurist Lord Hewart said it best: 'Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Sussex_Justices,_ex_p_McCar...
Then you run into the problem of innocent, or at least justified, people having their financial lives destroyed defending against murder charges. I don't think it's as simple as "if someone dies there needs to be a trial".
We could adopt the English approach to coroner's inquiries, which are non-adversarial and don't have any custodial sanctions, but operate in public and can be input to a murder trial if that's appropriate. I don't want to put everyone on trial for murder, but I do think that every death needs to have an open investigation. This would obviously require some fundamental changes to the US legal system, but I think that it's already experiencing severe stress under the weight of its own contradictions.
Any death in custody in the uk gets investigated even more so in the rare case when deadly force is used.
At the absolute least, there should be a trial if the accused is known to have committed the homicide like the cases mentioned in the article. In one case, it was caught on tape, and in cases of a shooting ballistics can easily prove this. I don't think any of the officers mentioned in the article would deny that they had committed homicide, only that it wasn't murder. When there has been a homicide like that and the killer is known, there should never be a case without a trial.
That goes doubly when the killer is a law enforcement officer. If we want to fix the current problems with policing in America, the only way to do that is to hold LEOs to higher standards than everyone else (and ideally stiffer penalties).
That goes doubly when the killer is a law enforcement officer. If we want to fix the current problems with policing in America, the only way to do that is to hold LEOs to higher standards than everyone else (and ideally stiffer penalties).
> I don't think it's as simple as "if someone dies there needs to be a trial".
But there almost always is in reality, if there's a reasonable suspect. The only exception seems to be with law enforcement officers.
But there almost always is in reality, if there's a reasonable suspect. The only exception seems to be with law enforcement officers.
Not really. Iff it makes it to the Grand Jury, then what you said is true.
Often it never makes it that far. In many self-defense cases involving non-police civilians the district attorney will decide that no crime was committed and that will be the end of it.
One quick example from the top of a google search: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/janitor-wont-be-charged-i...
Often it never makes it that far. In many self-defense cases involving non-police civilians the district attorney will decide that no crime was committed and that will be the end of it.
One quick example from the top of a google search: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/janitor-wont-be-charged-i...
Only something like 11 cases out of 160,000 the accused has not been indicted. The prosecutors can already "automatically" put everyone through trial.
Not to mention plenty already "have their financial lives destroyed" through the Civil Forfeiture law.
Not to mention plenty already "have their financial lives destroyed" through the Civil Forfeiture law.
That's the statistic for federal grand juries.[1] And it has mostly to do with the fact that federal prosecutors only bring slam dunk cases. At the federal level, there is often a lot of consternation about whether what is being prosecuted should be a crime, but it's very rare that a prosecution is brought on shaky evidence.
At the state level it's much higher 3-4%. You can say it's a rubber stamp, but in practice the average is raised by the fact that most criminal cases are slam dunk (that kilo of cocaine found in the accused's car is almost certainly his). And the bar for an indictment is relatively low, just probable cause. It'd be pretty uncomfortable if prosecuto so we're bringing lots of cases where they don't even have enough evidence to convince 3/4 of a grand jury there is probable cause.
[1] The distinction is relevant because federal and state prosecutors handle totally different sorts of crimes.
At the state level it's much higher 3-4%. You can say it's a rubber stamp, but in practice the average is raised by the fact that most criminal cases are slam dunk (that kilo of cocaine found in the accused's car is almost certainly his). And the bar for an indictment is relatively low, just probable cause. It'd be pretty uncomfortable if prosecuto so we're bringing lots of cases where they don't even have enough evidence to convince 3/4 of a grand jury there is probable cause.
[1] The distinction is relevant because federal and state prosecutors handle totally different sorts of crimes.
And that's only for cases that even made it to a grand jury. I haven't seen any stats about "officer-involved shootings" that never even got that far.
How exactly does eliminating grand juries help with out-of-control law enforcement? Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused. Do they work in practice? No. But eliminating them concedes the problem to the prosecution entirely.
You're not the first person I've seen suggest this, and I'm baffled by the logic.
You're not the first person I've seen suggest this, and I'm baffled by the logic.
> Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused. Do they work in practice? No. But eliminating them concedes the problem to the prosecution entirely.
No, it doesn't, because eliminating grand juries does not eliminate the gate to a full trial; criminal cases in which that function is not served by the one-sided, prosecution-controlled grand jury process in which the target is not entitled to have representation, cross-examine witnesses or challenge evidence, present evidence, or even be informed that the process is taking place have the function served instead by a preliminary hearing in which the defendant is entitled to all of those things.
The grand jury indictment as an alternative to the preliminary hearing otherwise used is not a safeguard for the accused, it is a means by which the society at large (represented by the grand jury selected from among them rather than the judge handling a preliminary hearing) that the actions of the prosecutor in response to serious crimes are well-directed, it trades away protection of the accused for protection of societal interest in oversight of the executive branch by the public.
> You're not the first person I've seen suggest this, and I'm baffled by the logic.
You seem to think that the alternative to the grand jury is no procedural gateway between accusation and trial, which is not the case. Its understandable that, under that misapprehension, the idea that removing the grand jury would lessen the power of prosecutors would be baffling, because it misses the alternative that actually exists and is, in fact, used for those cases where grand jury indictment is not.
No, it doesn't, because eliminating grand juries does not eliminate the gate to a full trial; criminal cases in which that function is not served by the one-sided, prosecution-controlled grand jury process in which the target is not entitled to have representation, cross-examine witnesses or challenge evidence, present evidence, or even be informed that the process is taking place have the function served instead by a preliminary hearing in which the defendant is entitled to all of those things.
The grand jury indictment as an alternative to the preliminary hearing otherwise used is not a safeguard for the accused, it is a means by which the society at large (represented by the grand jury selected from among them rather than the judge handling a preliminary hearing) that the actions of the prosecutor in response to serious crimes are well-directed, it trades away protection of the accused for protection of societal interest in oversight of the executive branch by the public.
> You're not the first person I've seen suggest this, and I'm baffled by the logic.
You seem to think that the alternative to the grand jury is no procedural gateway between accusation and trial, which is not the case. Its understandable that, under that misapprehension, the idea that removing the grand jury would lessen the power of prosecutors would be baffling, because it misses the alternative that actually exists and is, in fact, used for those cases where grand jury indictment is not.
They're most likely thinking about it from the flipside: grand juries rarely (if ever) vote to indict police officers involved in fatal incidents.
Not that it changes the point of your argument, just guessing where the motivation for that statement comes from.
Not that it changes the point of your argument, just guessing where the motivation for that statement comes from.
>Grand juries are a safeguard for the accused. Do they work in practice? No.
Grand Juries have an especially hard time finding anything wrong with police conduct and are routinely used to "legitimize" questionable police activity.
I'm not ready to agree to eliminating them but it isn't hard to understand why someone might throw it out there as an idea.
Grand Juries have an especially hard time finding anything wrong with police conduct and are routinely used to "legitimize" questionable police activity.
I'm not ready to agree to eliminating them but it isn't hard to understand why someone might throw it out there as an idea.
Why? So we can do away with the pretense?
I suppose. "If it isn't helping, it's hurting..." something like that.
If they don't work, they're not a safeguard for the accused, except in the case of police where they obviously wrongfully work as evidenced by the cases cited. It seems to me, that in many cases, they're also a safeguard for a prosecutor who doesn't actually want to prosecute police as well as police who have committed crimes themselves. As far as regular citizens, they really have nothing to lose by eliminating grand juries with grand jury indictment rates being just shy of 100%.
Prosecutors know how to get an indictment when they want one.
We hear that cases involving police killings get treated differently in an effort to have more transparency, or perhaps to allow grand juries in these cases to make a "more informed" decision. I don't buy this anymore. It doesn't provide more transparency, it plants doubt in a group that isn't supposed to be wrestling with any notion of "beyond a reasonable doubt".
I served on a high-profile grand jury case once. I came away deeply disillusioned with how this process is said to work, and how it actually works.
We hear that cases involving police killings get treated differently in an effort to have more transparency, or perhaps to allow grand juries in these cases to make a "more informed" decision. I don't buy this anymore. It doesn't provide more transparency, it plants doubt in a group that isn't supposed to be wrestling with any notion of "beyond a reasonable doubt".
I served on a high-profile grand jury case once. I came away deeply disillusioned with how this process is said to work, and how it actually works.
It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country
This is an odd statement. It's well known that prosecutors have much greater latitude in what they can present as evidence AND the hurdle for proceeding with criminal charges is much lower.
The other option is to leave decisions to charge somebody up to the prosecutors themselves. You think that will produce a better outcome? I would imagine you'd see a lot more politically motivated prosecutions.
This is an odd statement. It's well known that prosecutors have much greater latitude in what they can present as evidence AND the hurdle for proceeding with criminal charges is much lower.
The other option is to leave decisions to charge somebody up to the prosecutors themselves. You think that will produce a better outcome? I would imagine you'd see a lot more politically motivated prosecutions.
Grand juries don't seem to correct the most egregious errors in either direction. Consider the famous assertion that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. On the other hand, consider the recent non-indictment of Darren Wilson.
How often do grand juries defy the prosecutor's wishes?
I certainly agree that a check on prosecutorial discretion is badly needed. But the grand jury system doesn't seem to be providing it.
How often do grand juries defy the prosecutor's wishes?
I certainly agree that a check on prosecutorial discretion is badly needed. But the grand jury system doesn't seem to be providing it.
Aggregated statistics on grand juries are hard to come by, but let's use a random county for example: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/special-reports/article396.... Grand juries in Tarrant County, Texas declined to indict 11% of felony cases. Floating around the internet, you can find numbers ranging from 3-4% in New York counties to 5% in Texas as a whole.
The high rate of indictments, of course, doesn't prove that the grand jury system doesn't act as a check on prosecutorial discretion. An AMA study found that the largest health insurers reject 2.7-6.8% of all claims: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/.... Does the low rate of denials indicate that insurers' claim processes are an inadequate check on fraudulent claims? By your reasoning, it does.
The high rate of indictments, of course, doesn't prove that the grand jury system doesn't act as a check on prosecutorial discretion. An AMA study found that the largest health insurers reject 2.7-6.8% of all claims: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/.... Does the low rate of denials indicate that insurers' claim processes are an inadequate check on fraudulent claims? By your reasoning, it does.
Not trying to be disagreeable, just want to add some info about Texas' crappy grand jury system. Texas' grand jury system is one of two IIRC that allow the use of the "pick-a-pal" system.
Speaking from experience I can tell you that high-profile indictments are often discussed and decided before the indictment is presented, outside the juror's room.
And finally, we're having a little crisis currently in Harris county over the threatening of a witness by a grand jury foreman who was also a retired police officer, serving on a grand jury that was deciding to indict a man for the murder of another police officer.
http://www.texasmonthly.com/daily-post/grand-jury-system-tex...
http://www.texastribune.org/2014/09/15/time-ditch-key-man-gr...
http://www.constitution.org/jury/gj/041113_chron_casey.htm
Speaking from experience I can tell you that high-profile indictments are often discussed and decided before the indictment is presented, outside the juror's room.
And finally, we're having a little crisis currently in Harris county over the threatening of a witness by a grand jury foreman who was also a retired police officer, serving on a grand jury that was deciding to indict a man for the murder of another police officer.
http://www.texasmonthly.com/daily-post/grand-jury-system-tex...
http://www.texastribune.org/2014/09/15/time-ditch-key-man-gr...
http://www.constitution.org/jury/gj/041113_chron_casey.htm
Thanks for the numbers. I agree that 3-5% doesn't necessarily seem too low. And of course the stats don't show the number of indictments that were not sought because the prosecutor didn't think they had enough evidence even for a grand jury.
Still, the "ham sandwich" comment disturbs me. Do you think it has no basis in reality? Considering the emphasis we put on adversarial proceedings in this country, does it not seem odd and potentially problematic that grand juries hear only one side?
Still, the "ham sandwich" comment disturbs me. Do you think it has no basis in reality? Considering the emphasis we put on adversarial proceedings in this country, does it not seem odd and potentially problematic that grand juries hear only one side?
> The other option is to leave decisions to charge somebody up to the prosecutors themselves.
The decision to charge essentially is up to the prosecutor; the grand jury process for felonies essentially plays an analogous role to the preliminary hearing for misdemeanors, in that it establishes probable cause and allows the case to continue. The difference is that, while felonies are notionally more serious crimes with more at risk, defendants actually have the right to be represented at present evidence at preliminary hearings, while they are entitled to neither for grand jury proceedings. (And that preliminary hearings are before a judge, rather than a grand jury.)
So, the alternative to grand juries doesn't give prosecutors more power, it gives them less. But it still doesn't reduce their ability to refrain prosecuting offenses. You can't do that unless you do something like allow court-appointed independent prosecutors on a citizen complaint with sufficient evidence where the public prosecutor declines to prosecute.
The decision to charge essentially is up to the prosecutor; the grand jury process for felonies essentially plays an analogous role to the preliminary hearing for misdemeanors, in that it establishes probable cause and allows the case to continue. The difference is that, while felonies are notionally more serious crimes with more at risk, defendants actually have the right to be represented at present evidence at preliminary hearings, while they are entitled to neither for grand jury proceedings. (And that preliminary hearings are before a judge, rather than a grand jury.)
So, the alternative to grand juries doesn't give prosecutors more power, it gives them less. But it still doesn't reduce their ability to refrain prosecuting offenses. You can't do that unless you do something like allow court-appointed independent prosecutors on a citizen complaint with sufficient evidence where the public prosecutor declines to prosecute.
the alternative to grand juries doesn't give prosecutors more power...[grand juries] establishes probable cause and allows the case to continue
I don't think I understand the two. Grand juries can tell prosecutors "no", but if you remove them it gives prosecutors less power?
I don't think I understand the two. Grand juries can tell prosecutors "no", but if you remove them it gives prosecutors less power?
> I don't think I understand the two. Grand juries can tell prosecutors "no", but if you remove them it gives prosecutors less power?
In general, criminal trials require establishing probable cause to proceed to a full trial. There are two methods of doing this: indictment by a grand jury, or preliminary hearing before a judge.
In the former, the prosecutor presents evidence with no opposition. In the latter, the defendant is entitled to representation, to cross-examine witnesses, and to present their own evidence.
In general, criminal trials require establishing probable cause to proceed to a full trial. There are two methods of doing this: indictment by a grand jury, or preliminary hearing before a judge.
In the former, the prosecutor presents evidence with no opposition. In the latter, the defendant is entitled to representation, to cross-examine witnesses, and to present their own evidence.
No. What I'm suggesting is that in cases of alleged homicide and other grave matters, the case go directly to trial regardless of what the prosecutor wants. In other words, if a case were to go to a grand jury, that's skipped and it goes directly to trial. Thus, all the police homicide cases of recent would be in or be going to trial. If the prosecutor doesn't want to try it, bring in an outside prosecutor whose buddies aren't the cops who killed the victim.
> What I'm suggesting is that in cases of alleged homicide and other grave matters, the case go directly to trial regardless of what the prosecutor wants.
How can you have a trial with no one prosecuting?
How can you have a trial with no one prosecuting?
Maybe have the attorney general be able to put any police force into special measures if they are failing or become over mighty I am sure that Theresa May can provide some guidance
There are lots of states without grand jury systems.
This one sentence towards in the bottom of the article needs to happen. As we saw in the Eric Garner case, video footage means little.
> To improve accountability, complaints should be heard by independent arbiters, brought in from outside.
The prosecutors and police are on the same team.
> If an officer is accused of a crime, the decision as to whether to indict him may rest with a local prosecutor who works closely with the local police, attends barbecues with them and depends on the support of the police union if he or she wants to be re-elected. Or it may rest with a local “grand jury” of civilians, who hear only what the prosecutor wants them to hear.
> To improve accountability, complaints should be heard by independent arbiters, brought in from outside.
The prosecutors and police are on the same team.
> If an officer is accused of a crime, the decision as to whether to indict him may rest with a local prosecutor who works closely with the local police, attends barbecues with them and depends on the support of the police union if he or she wants to be re-elected. Or it may rest with a local “grand jury” of civilians, who hear only what the prosecutor wants them to hear.
I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing.
Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accused me of lying to him (I wasn't) and immediately impounded my car. Getting my car back took visits from 4 places (court, dmv, CHP office, tow yard) with fees at every turn.
I can't imagine how bad it is for people living in larger cities.
Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accused me of lying to him (I wasn't) and immediately impounded my car. Getting my car back took visits from 4 places (court, dmv, CHP office, tow yard) with fees at every turn.
I can't imagine how bad it is for people living in larger cities.
That problem isn't in-the-field law enforcement; it's how the state manages its compliance bureaucracy. I have the same problem; I get pulled over rarely, but any time I do, I worry that I might be suspended. I drove on a suspended license so long once that they gave up and reinstated me.
At least in Illinois, the big problem is that it's a nightmare to (a) find out what you owe and (b) pay it. I had to call 3 different places, waiting on hold 15+ minutes each time, to eventually find someone to whom I could give a credit card number to. I got lucky that time; the last time I had this problem, I had to drive 3 hours into Indiana to find the courthouse that managed the speeding ticket I got.
I don't blame the police for any of this. I blame the state administration.
At least in Illinois, the big problem is that it's a nightmare to (a) find out what you owe and (b) pay it. I had to call 3 different places, waiting on hold 15+ minutes each time, to eventually find someone to whom I could give a credit card number to. I got lucky that time; the last time I had this problem, I had to drive 3 hours into Indiana to find the courthouse that managed the speeding ticket I got.
I don't blame the police for any of this. I blame the state administration.
Can't say I blame the cop for any of that. 2 blocks is plenty long enough to get into an accident. And he has no other choice if you're driving on a suspended license.
>And he has no other choice if you're driving on a suspended license.
He has a choice.
He has a choice.
So you don't like cops because you break the law and they go after you for it?
First, it's more the system, which cops are a part of, than just cops.
Second, it's not so much about me getting away with breaking the law. Seatbelt violation? Sure, I'll take it. But suspending my license because of a fix-it ticket (which was fixed immediately but not verified)? Forcing someone with a suspended license to somehow get to 4 different places? C'mon.
But here's the real issue IMO: what if I'm a lower-income person living paycheck to paycheck and don't have $800 available? (FYI the storage fees at the impound lot is $50/day). What if I'm a 1-car family? Is it ok if I lose my car or job all because of this?
Maybe my main complaint is that everything seems purposefully inefficient and backwards in order to extract more money and keep more people employed–regardless of the effect it has on people.
And, yeah, some laws should change. I thought HN of all places would understand some of that.
Second, it's not so much about me getting away with breaking the law. Seatbelt violation? Sure, I'll take it. But suspending my license because of a fix-it ticket (which was fixed immediately but not verified)? Forcing someone with a suspended license to somehow get to 4 different places? C'mon.
But here's the real issue IMO: what if I'm a lower-income person living paycheck to paycheck and don't have $800 available? (FYI the storage fees at the impound lot is $50/day). What if I'm a 1-car family? Is it ok if I lose my car or job all because of this?
Maybe my main complaint is that everything seems purposefully inefficient and backwards in order to extract more money and keep more people employed–regardless of the effect it has on people.
And, yeah, some laws should change. I thought HN of all places would understand some of that.
Do they not send you a letter or something when they suspend your licence? It seems strange that they would do it without you knowing.
For the future: belt up before turning on the ignition. Seat belts save lives.
For the future: belt up before turning on the ignition. Seat belts save lives.
"Do they not send you a letter or something when they suspend your licence?"
Michigan claims they sent me a letter, but I never received one. I occasionally had trouble with my mail at that address, so I chalked it up to that, but they got a few thousand extra dollars out of me because of it so I've always been just a little skeptical.
Oh, and later, when I hadn't been in the state for years, and had a license issued in a different state, and my MI license was years expired, they decided to suspend my license again, and claim this time they sent the letter to an old address of mine. Thankfully this time I discovered it without being pulled over.
I've been calling periodically, just to check.
I'm not the OP, but I can vouch that it's totally possible to discover that your license is suspended on being pulled over.
Michigan claims they sent me a letter, but I never received one. I occasionally had trouble with my mail at that address, so I chalked it up to that, but they got a few thousand extra dollars out of me because of it so I've always been just a little skeptical.
Oh, and later, when I hadn't been in the state for years, and had a license issued in a different state, and my MI license was years expired, they decided to suspend my license again, and claim this time they sent the letter to an old address of mine. Thankfully this time I discovered it without being pulled over.
I've been calling periodically, just to check.
I'm not the OP, but I can vouch that it's totally possible to discover that your license is suspended on being pulled over.
Parking spot 2 blocks from the highway? After all, it was the CHP that gave you the ticket....
In my experience, CHP is the EASIEST law enforcement agency to live with. 12 years here and not so much as a traffic stop. It's paradise compared to anywhere else I've been.
In my experience, CHP is the EASIEST law enforcement agency to live with. 12 years here and not so much as a traffic stop. It's paradise compared to anywhere else I've been.
Yeah, that's the other weird thing. He was camped out several blocks from the 101 on-ramp.
I would like to remind everyone that the US gun ownership rate is not the cause of US gun crime.
A key assertion of this article is that guncrime is high because guns are common, and thus police have a somewhat justified reason to shoot first to defend themselves.
I would like to remind everyone that ownership of a military assault rifle is mandatory for 2/3rds of all men between 20 and 34 in Switzerland, and the rifle must be kept at home, by law. Once their service is complete, they may elect to keep their weapon.
This results in one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. Despite this, gun crime in Switzerland is almost the lowest in the world.
US gun crime and police aggression is the result of unhealthy gun culture and an unhealthy attitude towards mental health, not ownership rates.
One of the unhealthy aspects is that the population fears the police will shoot them, so they prepare to defend against the police. The police respond by preparing to preemptively defend themselves, and the cycle escalates until someone thinks it is reasonable to give US police forces mine-proof trucks.
A key assertion of this article is that guncrime is high because guns are common, and thus police have a somewhat justified reason to shoot first to defend themselves.
I would like to remind everyone that ownership of a military assault rifle is mandatory for 2/3rds of all men between 20 and 34 in Switzerland, and the rifle must be kept at home, by law. Once their service is complete, they may elect to keep their weapon.
This results in one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. Despite this, gun crime in Switzerland is almost the lowest in the world.
US gun crime and police aggression is the result of unhealthy gun culture and an unhealthy attitude towards mental health, not ownership rates.
One of the unhealthy aspects is that the population fears the police will shoot them, so they prepare to defend against the police. The police respond by preparing to preemptively defend themselves, and the cycle escalates until someone thinks it is reasonable to give US police forces mine-proof trucks.
The Swiss may have one of the highest rates of firearms at home but almost no ammunition is held at home. Previously the militia stored ammo at home, but it was strictly audited and missing ammo would get the person in potentially serious trouble.
So, while they have arms, the arms are in effect, disarmed.
So, while they have arms, the arms are in effect, disarmed.
[deleted]
Do you have a source for this?
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
> "And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal Council in 2007.
> "And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal Council in 2007.
Wikipedia agrees, citing [1]. However, both only seems to speak to ammunition issued by the army, not to how much of it is purchased privately. If it is in fact uncommon for Swiss gun owners to own ammunition, then that still seems to make the "gun ownership rate" misleading as pertains to the discussion here.
[1] http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-b...
[1] http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-b...
> US gun crime and police aggression is the result of unhealthy gun culture and an unhealthy attitude towards mental health, not ownership rates.
The USA doesn't have a monopoly on crazy people. What we do have a monopoly on is the most guns per capita of any first world country. If we didn't have the highest concentration of guns of any first world country, we also wouldn't have the highest gun homicide rate of any first world country.
This is the real issue.
The USA doesn't have a monopoly on crazy people. What we do have a monopoly on is the most guns per capita of any first world country. If we didn't have the highest concentration of guns of any first world country, we also wouldn't have the highest gun homicide rate of any first world country.
This is the real issue.
I would like to point that, although America doesn't have a monopoly on the crazy, is also a country that doesn't have an structured mental healthcare system. When you have easily available guns + mentally ill people roaming freely the streets... You have a problem.
Several parts strike me
1. Killings by the police in the US are daily events but. "nobody knows the exact number as not all deaths are reported" WTF! The police don't report upwards if they shoot someone!
2. 37% of US blacks have confidence in the police (pretty high considering) but just 59% of whites. Good grief how do you police a city or a block if 40% of the nice white middle class people think you are going to cock it up ?!
It's the last that counts the most. Guns and force cannot replace trust - community policing is not some nice to have, Chuck Culson was wrong, Hearts and Minds matter, at home and abroad.
1. Killings by the police in the US are daily events but. "nobody knows the exact number as not all deaths are reported" WTF! The police don't report upwards if they shoot someone!
2. 37% of US blacks have confidence in the police (pretty high considering) but just 59% of whites. Good grief how do you police a city or a block if 40% of the nice white middle class people think you are going to cock it up ?!
It's the last that counts the most. Guns and force cannot replace trust - community policing is not some nice to have, Chuck Culson was wrong, Hearts and Minds matter, at home and abroad.
I'm guessing they mean a shooting may not show up in the statistics as "shot dead" if someone dies from complications 6 months later, even if the shooting was responsible for the death.
No, the police do not report any shooting statistics. The numbers we have are based on press reports, but police are not required to report to any central authority (DOJ or FBI) about how or when their officers shoot someone.
There is _some_ reporting, but it's very incomplete.
Google link to WSJ article: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newss...
Google link to WSJ article: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newss...
If you need proof that police in America are out-of-control thugs you only need to look at this shocking photo from Oakland last night: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Undercover-cops-outed-...
In which an out-of-uniform CHP officer is brandishing a gun in the face of a photographer while another plain-dressed CHP officers wearing a bandana over his face tackles a protester. These cops had no reason to be in this situation, no reason to draw their weapons, certainly no reason to threaten members of the press with lethal force. No reason to hold their weapon sideways like an ignorant thug. These are the kinds of people who would certainly be removed from duty, probably prosecuted in more civilized countries.
In which an out-of-uniform CHP officer is brandishing a gun in the face of a photographer while another plain-dressed CHP officers wearing a bandana over his face tackles a protester. These cops had no reason to be in this situation, no reason to draw their weapons, certainly no reason to threaten members of the press with lethal force. No reason to hold their weapon sideways like an ignorant thug. These are the kinds of people who would certainly be removed from duty, probably prosecuted in more civilized countries.
One of the officers was punched in the back of the head and then kicked in the head. When the crowd/mob closed in, his partner drew his gun to keep them at bay.
http://imgur.com/gallery/QSyWdcy
Sorry for laughing. I'm really amazed that every single Simpsons reference has an imgur link already made. But you're right--that guy needs canned.
Sorry for laughing. I'm really amazed that every single Simpsons reference has an imgur link already made. But you're right--that guy needs canned.
The article makes some excellent points, but the comparison to Europe rang a little hollow to me.
The U.S. is an order of magnitude more violent than the U.K., and always has been: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona.... In 1960 there was no drug war, there was no prohibition, the country was prosperous, but more than eight times as many people were murdered per capita than in the U.K.
> Sentences are harsh. Some American states impose life without parole for persistent but non-violent offenders; no other rich nation does.
In 1993-94, years where the per-capita murder rate in the U.S. was 9x higher than in the U.K., California and Washington voters approved the three strikes laws that lead to these harsh sentences by 3-1 margins.
It's easy to talk about the things that are wrong with the justice system in the U.S., but it's a pretty cursory analysis until you tackle the real question: when exercising their democratic will, whether in the small on grand juries or in the large through referendums, why do voters keep supporting the system?
The U.S. is an order of magnitude more violent than the U.K., and always has been: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona.... In 1960 there was no drug war, there was no prohibition, the country was prosperous, but more than eight times as many people were murdered per capita than in the U.K.
> Sentences are harsh. Some American states impose life without parole for persistent but non-violent offenders; no other rich nation does.
In 1993-94, years where the per-capita murder rate in the U.S. was 9x higher than in the U.K., California and Washington voters approved the three strikes laws that lead to these harsh sentences by 3-1 margins.
It's easy to talk about the things that are wrong with the justice system in the U.S., but it's a pretty cursory analysis until you tackle the real question: when exercising their democratic will, whether in the small on grand juries or in the large through referendums, why do voters keep supporting the system?
In 1993-94, years where the per-capita murder rate in the U.S. was 9x higher than in the U.K.,
It's important to keep in mind that murder rates are pretty low in general (save for a handful of countries). It's only when you compare countries to each other that the differences seem large.
In 1993-1994 Canada's murder rate was double that of the UKs. I wouldn't, by an stretch of the imagination say that Canada had a murder problem then.
It's important to keep in mind that murder rates are pretty low in general (save for a handful of countries). It's only when you compare countries to each other that the differences seem large.
In 1993-1994 Canada's murder rate was double that of the UKs. I wouldn't, by an stretch of the imagination say that Canada had a murder problem then.
They're low in the sense that any given person is unlikely to be personally murdered. They're not low in the sense that the impact of the crime on the community can't be felt.
I used to live in Wilmington, DE, where 0.038% of people in the city get murdered each year. Vanishingly small odds, to be sure, but high enough where in the year I lived there several scary incidents "hit close to home." There was someone gunned down a block away from my wife's office (in the business district of downtown). There was another person killed on a street corner a few blocks from our house, which we used to pass regularly on the way to our favorite Indian restaurant. That sort of thing weighs on a community's psyche. I have to admit, the hair on the back of my neck would stand up when I was walking around Wilmington at night.
Also, it's reasonable to believe that murder rates are a proxy for violent crime in general. The former is a more reliable statistic, because different jurisdictions' definitions of violent crime differ dramatically.
I used to live in Wilmington, DE, where 0.038% of people in the city get murdered each year. Vanishingly small odds, to be sure, but high enough where in the year I lived there several scary incidents "hit close to home." There was someone gunned down a block away from my wife's office (in the business district of downtown). There was another person killed on a street corner a few blocks from our house, which we used to pass regularly on the way to our favorite Indian restaurant. That sort of thing weighs on a community's psyche. I have to admit, the hair on the back of my neck would stand up when I was walking around Wilmington at night.
Also, it's reasonable to believe that murder rates are a proxy for violent crime in general. The former is a more reliable statistic, because different jurisdictions' definitions of violent crime differ dramatically.
I agree. When looking at stats like these, they hide the fact that homicides are not distributed equally across a country.
The US has a high murder rate, but it is very localized not only in certain cities, but certain parts of cities. Outside of those areas the homicide rate is vanishingly low.
The US has a high murder rate, but it is very localized not only in certain cities, but certain parts of cities. Outside of those areas the homicide rate is vanishingly low.
I wouldn't say "vanishingly low." In the wealthy suburban county where I grew up, the homicide rate was roughly comparable to London. Four U.S. states have a murder rate lower than the U.K.: http://libertarianhome.co.uk/2012/12/uk-murder-rate-higher-t.... Aside from Hawaii, those states have almost no major urban centers to speak of, in comparison to the U.K. which is dense and urban.
Alabama, Mississippi, North Dakota, and South Carolina are heavily rural with few major urban centers to speak of, yet have 3-5x the murder rate of the U.K.: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1....
Alabama, Mississippi, North Dakota, and South Carolina are heavily rural with few major urban centers to speak of, yet have 3-5x the murder rate of the U.K.: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1....
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
When you take out gang violence, the murder rate really isn't that bad. (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs)
> According to the 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment report, gangs are responsible for an average of 48 percent of violent crime in most jurisdictions, and up to 90 percent in others.
> According to the 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment report, gangs are responsible for an average of 48 percent of violent crime in most jurisdictions, and up to 90 percent in others.
I see part of the problem being an extreme lack of civility in our society.
At one point I suppose the police felt they were members of the community. So they treated people with some measure of respect and dignity while carrying out their duties. They would see these same people at church, at the store, at baseball games, at funerals etc. So it was different.
Now, the police are often unreasonably rude and hostile immediately and without provocation. For example, the case of M. Brown... sure, it's understood Brown probably did attack the officer and was shot. But, the officer pulls up squealing tires and shouts for Brown to get the F* out of the street. So he gets Brown angry and is physically attacked. Then he _has_ to shoot the kid. Certainly Brown shouldn't have been walking in the middle of the road. But what if the officer had pulled up and said "Fellows, how are you doing today? Can I get you to get off the street? I wouldn't want to see you get run over." Then, if they didn't comply, ramp it up a little bit at a time as needed. Chances are there never would have been a shooting. But as it is, the officers hostile speech and generally dickish attitude led to a situation in which deadly force eventually was used. That officer is morally in the wrong, he did help create this situation, he should be fired, he should be punished.
We should demand our officers act with politeness and basic respect even as they enforce the law. If they can't do the job without behaving like psychotic bullies, we should find some people who can.
On the other hand, looking at the people they deal with day in and day out, it's easy to understand how they could get this attitude. Many citizens officers deal with have no basic respect nor manners themselves. Still... officers should be held the a higher standard (and appropriately compensated if it comes to that). They are still nominally public servants and should be acting in the best interests of the community. A community which includes the people they may be arresting btw.
At one point I suppose the police felt they were members of the community. So they treated people with some measure of respect and dignity while carrying out their duties. They would see these same people at church, at the store, at baseball games, at funerals etc. So it was different.
Now, the police are often unreasonably rude and hostile immediately and without provocation. For example, the case of M. Brown... sure, it's understood Brown probably did attack the officer and was shot. But, the officer pulls up squealing tires and shouts for Brown to get the F* out of the street. So he gets Brown angry and is physically attacked. Then he _has_ to shoot the kid. Certainly Brown shouldn't have been walking in the middle of the road. But what if the officer had pulled up and said "Fellows, how are you doing today? Can I get you to get off the street? I wouldn't want to see you get run over." Then, if they didn't comply, ramp it up a little bit at a time as needed. Chances are there never would have been a shooting. But as it is, the officers hostile speech and generally dickish attitude led to a situation in which deadly force eventually was used. That officer is morally in the wrong, he did help create this situation, he should be fired, he should be punished.
We should demand our officers act with politeness and basic respect even as they enforce the law. If they can't do the job without behaving like psychotic bullies, we should find some people who can.
On the other hand, looking at the people they deal with day in and day out, it's easy to understand how they could get this attitude. Many citizens officers deal with have no basic respect nor manners themselves. Still... officers should be held the a higher standard (and appropriately compensated if it comes to that). They are still nominally public servants and should be acting in the best interests of the community. A community which includes the people they may be arresting btw.
This is a red herring. I lived around the KS City area for a year and people walking in the middle of the street intentionally obstructing traffic was a thing that happened on a regular basis. They walk in the street while you're driving and glare at you, basically trying to prove they can make you do their will by having to drive around them just walking there. Civility is already gone at that point, it is willful, aggressive disruption. Maybe the cop was dickish, but for the same reason you can't blame Brown's behavior for his homicide, you can't blame Wilson for escalation that would make brown figure he could win a confrontation against a law officer. If Wilson shouldn't have acted like an asshole because it escalated the situation, the it more applies to Brown that he shouldn't have been walking in the street.
Indeed. Both parties are guilty of basic lack of civility (a point which I note).
But one party is (in theory), a professional state agent, paid at least in part by the other. (Sounds like you didn't quite make it to the bottom of my post.....).
I'm not quite catching your point... it seems to be that Brown was acting up so it was acceptable for Wilson to act as he did. And if that is your point I don't agree. At all. And no, this isn't a "red herring". It is an often overlooked point that is entirely relevant to the issue. The behavior and general attitude of police officers sometimes helps cause these types of situations.
Also you say I can't blame Brown for being partially responsible for his own death? I can't blame Wilson for inflaming the situation? Oh yes I can. On both points. And I would be right. Not sure why you would say this......
My point is... we would all be better served if officers behaved in a more respectful manner. So ultimately would they. That people walked around cocky in the street and annoyed you is irrelevant to this simple fact. Two wrongs don't make a right. And one party, in particular, should definitely be expected to be above this behavior. We should demand it.
But one party is (in theory), a professional state agent, paid at least in part by the other. (Sounds like you didn't quite make it to the bottom of my post.....).
I'm not quite catching your point... it seems to be that Brown was acting up so it was acceptable for Wilson to act as he did. And if that is your point I don't agree. At all. And no, this isn't a "red herring". It is an often overlooked point that is entirely relevant to the issue. The behavior and general attitude of police officers sometimes helps cause these types of situations.
Also you say I can't blame Brown for being partially responsible for his own death? I can't blame Wilson for inflaming the situation? Oh yes I can. On both points. And I would be right. Not sure why you would say this......
My point is... we would all be better served if officers behaved in a more respectful manner. So ultimately would they. That people walked around cocky in the street and annoyed you is irrelevant to this simple fact. Two wrongs don't make a right. And one party, in particular, should definitely be expected to be above this behavior. We should demand it.
I didn't say you could "blame" either one of them. I said that you are being inconsistent by only attributing total responsibility for escalating a situation that resulted in the confrontation to one party. The fact that Wilson was a professional and Brown wasn't doesn't change that fact, in fact not a single thing said I thought he shouldn't be punished. You are saying "Wilson didn't act within his responsibility." Well, what about Brown breaking the law by walking in the middle of the road? He had a responsibility to not do that, even if he is not a "professional." "Wilson should be held to a higher standard as an officer of the law." Indeed he should, but none of that excuses Brown for escalating it further. Again, there is a very simple calculus that goes into this: if you enter into a confrontation with a police officer, you are not going to win--and this is not underhanded justification for Brown's execution, but the basic fact that the law officer holds all the power. They both can provoke each other, but the costs are much higher for one party than the other. If you think a cop is being a dick to you, recognize that right or wrong, he has the power to kill you and get away with it. I understand your point. I reject it.
This article isn't about people walking in the street or the behavior of suspects. It's about the behavior of police officers. So are my comments.
"Total" responsibility? Where do I attribute that? Did you actually read my post? You reject my point that society would be better served if police officers behaved in a more civil manner?
I don't think this worth continuing.... Have a good evening.
"Total" responsibility? Where do I attribute that? Did you actually read my post? You reject my point that society would be better served if police officers behaved in a more civil manner?
I don't think this worth continuing.... Have a good evening.
One problem among many is that US police are both allowed and trained to use deadly force very quickly, when under any kind of threat. German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife.
It's a common American meme that when police fire a gun, the only rational decision is to shoot to kill, but it's just not true.
It's a common American meme that when police fire a gun, the only rational decision is to shoot to kill, but it's just not true.
German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife.
Do you have a link or cite that German police shoot to disable? Five minutes of Googling didn't turn up anything relevant for me. Thanks.
Do you have a link or cite that German police shoot to disable? Five minutes of Googling didn't turn up anything relevant for me. Thanks.
German police will often (successfully!) shoot to disable, not to kill, even when confronted by someone armed with a knife.
From what I've read very few police officers have the time to selectively shoot someone. If deadly force is called for, you aim for the center of the person.
Also, shooting to injure rather than kill is not exactly easy. If you take a bullet in a major artery in a leg or an arm, you can bleed out just as quickly as a bullet to the chest.
From what I've read very few police officers have the time to selectively shoot someone. If deadly force is called for, you aim for the center of the person.
Also, shooting to injure rather than kill is not exactly easy. If you take a bullet in a major artery in a leg or an arm, you can bleed out just as quickly as a bullet to the chest.
In the US, you need to shoot to kill, because living men talk and sue you.
I had a cousin who retired as an NYPD Patrol Sergeant. He was proud that he had never fired and rarely pulled his pistol over the course of a 40 year career. But he sure as hell cracked his share of bones with a baton.
I had a cousin who retired as an NYPD Patrol Sergeant. He was proud that he had never fired and rarely pulled his pistol over the course of a 40 year career. But he sure as hell cracked his share of bones with a baton.
This is simply not true (At least not generally). Just recently the German Police shot a Drug Dealer while he was running away from undercover police officers. Shot was in the back of the head and as far as I remember they even said it was justified, since by German law it is allowed to use deadly force against a fleeing criminal... Sounds familiar? (Case in Burghausen)
In other countries the police is even obligated to fire a "warning shot" (in the air) before shooting to disable (and only later can shoot to kill).
1. Firing a shot in the air is reckless -- the bullet/round comes down with the same speed and momentum as when it was first fired, and it's gotta land somewhere -- and I'd be surprised if that was the standard operating procedure of any law enforcement agency in the world (however my surprise doesn't mean it isn't true). Perhaps you meant they fire a warning shot in the ground, but there is a big difference and that you missed the distinction suggests to me you may not have accurate information about what law enforcement agencies are or are not required to do.
2. As for the GP, you should neither shoot to kill nor shoot to maim. You should shot to stop the threat. Whether they live or die is not as important as stopping a lethal threat (and if there is no lethal threat, you should not be shooting). And if your intent is to stop the threat rather than kill or injure, the best chance of stopping the threat is to shoot center of mass until the target goes down. (Which will, in most cases, kill the target, incidentally)
2. As for the GP, you should neither shoot to kill nor shoot to maim. You should shot to stop the threat. Whether they live or die is not as important as stopping a lethal threat (and if there is no lethal threat, you should not be shooting). And if your intent is to stop the threat rather than kill or injure, the best chance of stopping the threat is to shoot center of mass until the target goes down. (Which will, in most cases, kill the target, incidentally)
> ...the bullet/round comes down with the same speed and momentum as when it was first fired...
This would only be true if air resistance wasn't a thing. Physics is against you on this one.
This would only be true if air resistance wasn't a thing. Physics is against you on this one.
You're right, my explanation was technically inaccurate. However, the terminal velocity of a bullet due to gravity is still easily enough to kill someone (and does kill every year from people "celebrating" this way), so my point still stands.
When rifled bullets are fired in parabolic trajectories into the sky, they retain enough horizontal velocity to easily kill. There are numerous examples of people being struck and killed by bullets that were fired into the air (typically in celebration of something inane).
Lightweight rounds, such as birdshot, are safe when fired into the sky. That is the exception.
Lightweight rounds, such as birdshot, are safe when fired into the sky. That is the exception.
Actually no certainly in the uk if a copper has to fire they are trained fire to kill - of course in serious anti terrorist situations they call in the SAS.
In Germany, and perhaps other countries, police are instructed to fire warning shots.
It is only because German police have to fire their guns so infrequently that this has not caused innocent fatalities. The practice violates numerous firearm safety rules.
It is only because German police have to fire their guns so infrequently that this has not caused innocent fatalities. The practice violates numerous firearm safety rules.
Unfortunately Germany has had a number of very high profile terrorist incidents where it went pear shaped.
> shoot to disable
Proponents of this usually have no experience firing a weapon, let alone while in distress. It's nearly impossible to disable-but-not-kill a person by shooting them.
> even when confronted by someone armed with a knife
Again, usually someone who is not aware of how deadly a knife really is.
Proponents of this usually have no experience firing a weapon, let alone while in distress. It's nearly impossible to disable-but-not-kill a person by shooting them.
> even when confronted by someone armed with a knife
Again, usually someone who is not aware of how deadly a knife really is.
> It's nearly impossible to disable-but-not-kill a person by shooting them.
Its not really nearly impossible to disable-but-not-kill a person by shooting them (it happens all the time, actually), it is just hard to do that reliably compared to disable-without-regard-to-killing, which is why the general rule is don't shoot unless willing to kill, and then aim center of mass -- not because hitting center of mass is the most likely place to disable or kill (though its pretty close -- the head is better for either, though), but because missing center of mass makes you more likely to at least disable than missing pretty much any place else you might aim to disable.
Given the fairly high cost of failing to disable in any situation where shooting is justified at all, adding a "but not kill" constraint is generally an unacceptable risk.
Its not really nearly impossible to disable-but-not-kill a person by shooting them (it happens all the time, actually), it is just hard to do that reliably compared to disable-without-regard-to-killing, which is why the general rule is don't shoot unless willing to kill, and then aim center of mass -- not because hitting center of mass is the most likely place to disable or kill (though its pretty close -- the head is better for either, though), but because missing center of mass makes you more likely to at least disable than missing pretty much any place else you might aim to disable.
Given the fairly high cost of failing to disable in any situation where shooting is justified at all, adding a "but not kill" constraint is generally an unacceptable risk.
It is frequently claimed that in some European countries, it is standard practice to "shoot-to-disable" but I have been told by trainers in the USA that doing that makes you likely to miss and/or risk danger of hitting another person. if that is true, then it would seem to be a bad policy, but it's claimed it works better. Who is right? I wish some journalist would write an article on this.
These people are trained to take on murders, yet we expect them to nab every bit of weed they can find in a culture where it's weird if you don't own a gun. What do you expect them to do?
If you want a better society pass better laws. That means funding rational candidates for office.
If you want a better society pass better laws. That means funding rational candidates for office.
If only. All of the actions recommended in this article are moderate, common sense changes that benefit the populous as a whole and will never happen. The police have no interest in changing practices that benefit them, and any politician that tries to oppose their will is going to get called "soft on crime", a nonsense attack that somehow still persists in our political dialog.
I've been reading the Economist for 20+ years now and it never ceases to amaze me that while there is some excellent journalism, they really don't get the United States. Statements like "If America did not have 300m guns in circulation, much of this would change." show their bias, rather than having anything to do with the way the US turns everything - drugs, immigration, poverty - into a policing issue infused with violence. Does the Economist really believe that American gun ownership is a good excuse for why (in my case) rural police departments feel it necessary to be buying mine resistant vehicles? The whole situation is out of control, but like so many issues in American life, the Economist really misses the cultural and social picture.
The actual title of this article is "America's Police on Trial" so I don't think this editorial is trying to apply itself to every area of US law.
They qualify the above statement in the prior paragraph: "One reason why so many American police shoot first is that so many American civilians are armed."
They qualify the above statement in the prior paragraph: "One reason why so many American police shoot first is that so many American civilians are armed."
Even with that qualification that is still crap logic. There are lots of guns in America, but the number of Americans who own guns are at all-time lows. The "number of guns in America" figure is deceptive because of all of the people who own dozens to hundreds of guns.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-o...
Arresting somebody who owns one or two guns is really not inherently safer than arresting somebody who owns a few crates of guns, so the number of guns in the country is irrelevant. The number of gun owners is relevant.
The apparent upward trend in police militarization and the number of Americans that own guns simply do not correlate. The Economist's unfamiliarity with American culture (particularly American gun culture) explains how they could make this mistake.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-o...
Arresting somebody who owns one or two guns is really not inherently safer than arresting somebody who owns a few crates of guns, so the number of guns in the country is irrelevant. The number of gun owners is relevant.
The apparent upward trend in police militarization and the number of Americans that own guns simply do not correlate. The Economist's unfamiliarity with American culture (particularly American gun culture) explains how they could make this mistake.
It isn't because gun ownership is up, it is stating that police shootings occur because of the mere fact that there are already more guns in the USA than any other first world country, thus police are more likely to encounter criminals with guns. We also have the highest gun homicide rate of any first world country. The two are directly related.
> "it is stating that police shootings occur because of the mere fact that there are already more guns in the USA than any other first world country, thus police are more likely to encounter criminals with guns"
Police in America are less likely today to encounter guns than they were 40 years ago, but police shootings are apparently at all time highs. If their theory held water, that would not be the case.
Police in America are less likely today to encounter guns than they were 40 years ago, but police shootings are apparently at all time highs. If their theory held water, that would not be the case.
The USA still has 300 million guns. This is far and beyond any other first world country, so yes this is in fact related to police in the USA more likely shooting first than they would in other countries which do not have such an insane saturation of guns like the USA.
When you have a hypothesis, you have to try making predictions with it and see if it fits real-world data. If it doesn't, then it is wrong. It doesn't matter how elegant or beautiful your hypothesis is, if it does not fit the data then it is wrong.
Your hypothesis does not fit the data.
Your hypothesis does not fit the data.
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True. Gun control generally is something a lot of Brits just default to thinking is a necessary thing, while not actually having considered it in much depth. (This is largely a reflex to the Dunblane incident, and they can't understand why anyone would disagree with the resulting course of action).
The thing is both sides are kind of wrong. London has far more gun crime than much of the US does (personally I ran into three firearms incidents without trying) which really should provoke much more soul searching in the UK than it does (they delude themselves into thinking the whole US is uniformly dangerous), however, British cops, while by no means perfect, are enormously less likely to be in aggressive by default mode. Obviously it does happen quite a bit, but nothing like the same antagonism that you have in North America.
The thing is both sides are kind of wrong. London has far more gun crime than much of the US does (personally I ran into three firearms incidents without trying) which really should provoke much more soul searching in the UK than it does (they delude themselves into thinking the whole US is uniformly dangerous), however, British cops, while by no means perfect, are enormously less likely to be in aggressive by default mode. Obviously it does happen quite a bit, but nothing like the same antagonism that you have in North America.
"London has far more gun crime than much of the US does"
Can we get a figure to back that up please? The MET places gun crime figures in greater London at 1570 (http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/) with a population of approx 8 million. Which American populations would you compare this to and what are their figures?
I've spent a significant amount of time in London and have never once run into any firearms incidents. It would be interesting to me to see the data behind this.
Can we get a figure to back that up please? The MET places gun crime figures in greater London at 1570 (http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/) with a population of approx 8 million. Which American populations would you compare this to and what are their figures?
I've spent a significant amount of time in London and have never once run into any firearms incidents. It would be interesting to me to see the data behind this.
There is no shortage of small communities across America that have not had a gun crime in decades. Zero stays zero, even when you make it per-capita.
Whether or not this is a fair comparison is another matter.
Whether or not this is a fair comparison is another matter.
Fair call. To clear that up I would count urbanised centres of a similar population size and density would be a reasonable basis of comparison. I imagine England would have a large number of small communities with zero gun crime as well.
Those vehicles may be mine-resistant, but perhaps your police department is buying them primarily because they are bullet-resistant?
Clearly, arresting a suspected drug dealer is far more dangerous in the US than in the UK - and widespread gun ownership is a reasonable explanation for that diference.
Clearly, arresting a suspected drug dealer is far more dangerous in the US than in the UK - and widespread gun ownership is a reasonable explanation for that diference.
I think this issue has many aspects, some of which are very political and polarizing, as well as your mundane issues.
First, police often act with worst case scenarios in mind. That is err on the side of the suspect inflicting immediate harm. Why? Because oftentimes proven offenders actually had arms. Now, the UK, Japan, the police may not be any nicer but they have the privilege of correctly presuming suspects are unarmed.
As Americans i don't think we'll get to a place where arms are well regulated, so I think other options will be necessary. Training in defusing confrontations, perhaps sending in officers in exoskeletons and armor. Something which allows for the suspect to actually intend harm but unable to execute on the officer. That way police don't feel they have to err on the side of safety given the propensity of arms in The US.
The police are trained to neutralize a suspect rather than "wing" them. I think it has to do with how "baddies" can have actual firearms whereas in many other countries firearms are heavily regulated for the general pop.
In any event, the police and the general pop need to be able to feel more at ease with each other otherwise we'll be on our way to judge dredd and that's not a good path.
First, police often act with worst case scenarios in mind. That is err on the side of the suspect inflicting immediate harm. Why? Because oftentimes proven offenders actually had arms. Now, the UK, Japan, the police may not be any nicer but they have the privilege of correctly presuming suspects are unarmed.
As Americans i don't think we'll get to a place where arms are well regulated, so I think other options will be necessary. Training in defusing confrontations, perhaps sending in officers in exoskeletons and armor. Something which allows for the suspect to actually intend harm but unable to execute on the officer. That way police don't feel they have to err on the side of safety given the propensity of arms in The US.
The police are trained to neutralize a suspect rather than "wing" them. I think it has to do with how "baddies" can have actual firearms whereas in many other countries firearms are heavily regulated for the general pop.
In any event, the police and the general pop need to be able to feel more at ease with each other otherwise we'll be on our way to judge dredd and that's not a good path.
> 300m guns in circulation...
what wonder that people get shot.
[Edit: what wonder I get downvoted, kind of expected this]
what wonder that people get shot.
[Edit: what wonder I get downvoted, kind of expected this]
...have you seen how well armed the State is? You'd be a fool not to own a cannon or two.
I have only read about it and seen pictures. If there are that many guns, it escalades much faster and probably a policeman is more afraid also. In Germany / Switzerland policeman still often feel kind of normal people and are rather relaxed. Not sure if you also get this feel in the US.
John Oliver on Gun Control (just a huge brag for Australia)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk...
Every metropolitan region in the US needs to elect a modern tribune.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_of_the_Plebs
A modern tribune should play both the role of sheriff and prosecutor. The powers of a tribune should be constrained to act for the people against government agencies. To that end, they would have power to arrest and detain government officials, convene grand juries, and prosecute trials.
To do their job, a modern tribune and their family would require lifetime immunity from local law enforcement. To enforce this immunity, any interaction by local law enforcement would need to be punishable by suspension and jail time and the burden is strict liability.
But the tribune could not be a position of total local authority. Their powers would need to be constrained to local government officials. And they would need to be under the jurisdiction of country Sheriff's or State police.
This would break the incestuous relationships between the DA office, the police, and the judiciary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_of_the_Plebs
A modern tribune should play both the role of sheriff and prosecutor. The powers of a tribune should be constrained to act for the people against government agencies. To that end, they would have power to arrest and detain government officials, convene grand juries, and prosecute trials.
To do their job, a modern tribune and their family would require lifetime immunity from local law enforcement. To enforce this immunity, any interaction by local law enforcement would need to be punishable by suspension and jail time and the burden is strict liability.
But the tribune could not be a position of total local authority. Their powers would need to be constrained to local government officials. And they would need to be under the jurisdiction of country Sheriff's or State police.
This would break the incestuous relationships between the DA office, the police, and the judiciary.
some interesting numbers...
> This year 46 policemen were shot dead and
> the police shot and killed at least 458 people last year
10% or so of death involving police is a policemen. Not that it justify the police force level, but an interesting statistic.
> This year 46 policemen were shot dead and
> the police shot and killed at least 458 people last year
10% or so of death involving police is a policemen. Not that it justify the police force level, but an interesting statistic.
That figure does not even place law enforcement in the top ten most dangerous professions.
Automobile accidents, are by far the most lethal part of US life outside of disease. This is no different for police officers.
I'm always saying that the best thing the police can do is get out of their cars. If it makes them safer, even better.
Nor it should? I wouldn't want policemen to have the same death on the job as say loggers, if only because you don't want policemen to be reckless/desperate by nature.
Anyway, my observation was that ratio it isn't usually expose in pieces I read from other sources :)
Sure. Any statement like that has to be read based on the averages, though. 4.7 per 100k Americans are intentionally murdered every year, and there's about 780k police officers, so you'd expect just from that background number ~37 homicides of cops every year.
As someone else pointed out to me, its not just the US, but the world. There are abuses to the system everywhere - in some places it is better than the US but in many places it is far worse.
Law enforcement is actually pretty good here in my opinion (when you look at the big picture). But our legal system (as in, the court system) benefits mostly lawyers, wealthy people, etc.
Law enforcement is actually pretty good here in my opinion (when you look at the big picture). But our legal system (as in, the court system) benefits mostly lawyers, wealthy people, etc.
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> Eric Garner ... guilty only of selling single cigarettes
The cops involved suspected this, but I don't believe it's known that he is guilty of this. Especially in a legal sense: he did not live to see a trial.