Thanks. The next time I submit my "interest in availability" of a "certificate" for "transportation from the origin to the destination" on a "web service" affording a "data exchange between a service provider and a private entity requesting the certificate", I will make sure to hire a team of lawyers to look into ToS of all parties involved.
How could anyone confuse the words "free seat selection" and "1 left at this price" with anything other than "you are buying whatever, we really don't care and can charge for anything we want regardless of what's written in any listings". Silly me.
Saying that, I think I am starting to get it. My mistake was not looking into the origin and the legal definition of the word "seat" before attempting to book a flight.
But just to make sure I resolve this issue once and for all, could you please help me with a few more legal definitions?
What do these words actually mean: "reservation", "flight", "buy", "payment", "free", "selection", "person", "destination", and "confirmation"? Thanks again!
That's not what the clear explicit agreement between the two parties is in this case. Why do sellers list any product details at all?
Both Google and Delta have this in writing: I am paying for a seat I can select. If that's not included in the sale - no problem, don't list it.
I am not against seats being sold unassigned. I am not against charging an additional fee for being able to select a specific seat. And this argument is not about that.
The dark pattern is listing "free seat selection" and "1 seat available" before I choose this flight and agree to continue the booking process, while then changing the value of the product by asking me to pay an additional fee for the seat selection. The seats in the main cabin are available (see screenshots). They are just not available for me to select for free. If Delta knows that there are no selectable seats at this price left on the flight, why do they include that in the listing?
I am really not sure where this disconnect is coming from. I am not arguing against all additional fees, not arguing against seating being assigned at check-in. Just make it clear before I commit to the process, so I don't waste time. This is the definition of a dark pattern.
Are you talking specifically about engineering? If you have strong ethical disagreements with your current employer, start prepping for interviews. Start early. Invest 2-3 months. Starts interviewing. Sign an offer. Then quit. I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting a sole family provider should just quit on an arbitrary day and lose their health insurance.
That's not the point though. The point is that when you place a reservation, certain things are included. In the case of a restaurant, chairs are included. In the case of Delta, they explicitly state right under the agreed upon price that there is a seat available that I can reserve. It might be close to the restroom, sure. But they should not list this offer as inclusive of seat selection if there are no seats to select.
For some reason you fail to acknowledge that features listed under the price must be included in the price.
> Try reserving a specific table at the restaurant. An hour before the dinner.
Restaurants don't allow you to go through the reservation process to only suddenly mention at the last stage that the table has no chairs, or no table top (just table legs).
Hard to disagree with Apple here. Crypto "absolutists" fail to acknowledge how prevalent crypto scams are, so a blanket enablement of any and all apps to have crypto payment features would be highly dangerous.
Yes, you are right. When you reserve a "table" at a restaurant you are actually not promised chairs. If you want to reserve chairs - that’s +$20. Don’t want to reserve chairs? Just show up at the restaurant and there might be chairs available.
Delta tells me that there is a seat available at this price before I agree to it. After I agree to it it tells me that there is no seat available at this price unless I pay more.
The agreed upon "seat" in this context includes the selection. This is what this specific dark pattern is about. They are misrepresenting the value of their offering. I want to be able to reserve a seat on my flight. Not to reserve a promise that they will assign a seat... if available, obviously. If not I can just book the next flight and wait for a couple of hours at the ariport. Perfect.
Wow, ok. You think there is nothing wrong with the airline telling me that 1 seat is available on one screen and then telling me that there are no seats available unless I pay more on the next screen? (If I go back to the previous screen it still tells me that 1 seat is available.)
The alternative to this is that when I compare prices of different flights I see the correct full offer for the price I want to pay. This flight is not the only available flight. I would have chosen a different flight on Google Flights if I had known that there are no seats available at this price. But now I am 10 minutes into the process and just want to be done.
What is a dark pattern by your definition? A literal picture of a pattern colored dark gray?
What product do you think I am buying? A promise that they might find a seat for me if I show up at the airport?
It puzzles me how many people at HN are so eager to defend dark patterns.
If you look at the screenshots with more attention:
1. Google tells me that the free seat selection is included
2. Delta tells me that if I agree to this price, I will be able to reserve the last available seat on the flight (for this price)
3. Once I confirm the price, Delta tells me that I can’t select the seat, it’s not available. I can still buy the ticket, but the offer has changed. Sure, since clearly I need to get on this flight (booking it last minute) - I would rather pay a bit more to make sure I do have a seat.
This is what dark patterns are all about. How is that so hard to understand?
Urgency is one of the key motivators for using dark patterns. Wouldn't be surprised if Delta defaults to "1 seat available at this price" for all busy flights within X take off time regardless of the availability.
For a tech forum it is surprising how many commenters in this thread don’t understand what are “dark patterns”. It’s not fraud. Of course eventually I will see the total cost. It’s about misleading the customer in the process. They don’t have to trick me into paying more, they just need to make me progress far enough that I will choose to pay more to save my own time.
That doesn't capture the range of their dark patterns. I am literally testing this now. I am on Delta website going through the booking process (redirected form Google Flights). The price at Google Flights was $578. Delta website is showing that 1 seat is available (at this price). When it prompts to select the seat there are no seats available at this price. I am offered to upgrade to Comfort+ for $60. I am already 10 min into the process. And just to preempt your possible argument: when I go to the previous page it still shows that 1 seat is available at this price.
I just tried to find a roundtrip flight from SF to LA on Google Flights. Spent some time comparing prices, different airports, etc. Ended up picking one option, click, click, click - I am on the airline's website. More clicks and I am able to select the seats: went through all available seating - there is nothing available at the price that was originally surfaced to me. I can either upgrade to Delta Comfort+ for +$60 or to First Class.
Sure, I can go back to Google Flights and repeat the process. But I wasted 10 minutes already, and if I had a legitimate need to fly to LA I would have most likely just upgraded to Comfort+ to save time.
Are you going to blame me - the customer - for this?
You might be looking for a different word here. A dark pattern is not fraud or outright lying. These are already illegal. Seeing the total price at the end of the purchasing process is the legal requirement for a sale.
A classic example of a dark pattern is AirBnB. They (used to) show listing prices without all additional fees like cleaning, service fees, etc. So users would end up wasting a lot of time on finding the right offering to only later (yes, before checkout) realize that the total price is actually much higher. Users know how much they end up paying, it's not fraud. But this is still a dark pattern.
I might be wrong, but my recollection is that the practice of changing the price based on user location has been challenged in court some time ago. It's appalling that companies do that. I will definitely follow your advice for flight booking though.
How could anyone confuse the words "free seat selection" and "1 left at this price" with anything other than "you are buying whatever, we really don't care and can charge for anything we want regardless of what's written in any listings". Silly me.
Saying that, I think I am starting to get it. My mistake was not looking into the origin and the legal definition of the word "seat" before attempting to book a flight.
But just to make sure I resolve this issue once and for all, could you please help me with a few more legal definitions?
What do these words actually mean: "reservation", "flight", "buy", "payment", "free", "selection", "person", "destination", and "confirmation"? Thanks again!