Grim look at Civil War surgery unearthed by new pit of limbs, bodies(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Grim look at Civil War surgery unearthed by new pit of limbs, bodies
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/06/grim-look-at-civil-war-surgery-unearthed-by-new-pit-of-limbs-bodies/
17 comments
Thanks! That was more interesting than the Ars Technica article.
I don't think we should define a "child" in the 1800's by today's standards, 18+ year old. Life expectancy, they way they were raised and all...means that life starts much earlier if you want a chance to get married and have your children http://www.legacy.com/life-and-death/the-antebellum-era.html
Average life expectancy is a notoriously bad measurement because it skews way down because of childhood deaths.
For example, Roman life expectancy was only 21, but if you made it to age 5 it jumped to 42.
Even then the laws at the time was 18 to enlist -- so they already viewed child soilders the same way we do now. The big difference is age verification was a lot harder because there was little in the way of a paper trail.
For example, Roman life expectancy was only 21, but if you made it to age 5 it jumped to 42.
Even then the laws at the time was 18 to enlist -- so they already viewed child soilders the same way we do now. The big difference is age verification was a lot harder because there was little in the way of a paper trail.
if you are lucky and lived to 42, you're a child at 16? Please
Read about the Carnton Plantation, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnton
It was a temporary field hospital for the Battle of Franklin in Tennessee. It doesn't talk about it in the wiki page but if you search for "Carnton house blood stains" or go on a tour yourself you can see how horrific it was. Quite literally you can see the blood stained floorboards today from the civil war. You can still walk on them.
There is a place on the second floor where one of the surgeons had a bucket on the floor to hold his tools and the entire floor around it is stained with blood except for a small ring from the bucket which is unstained.
Highly recommend a tour of the house, grounds, and small museum especially if you like history. Plus let me know if you are in town. ;)
It was a temporary field hospital for the Battle of Franklin in Tennessee. It doesn't talk about it in the wiki page but if you search for "Carnton house blood stains" or go on a tour yourself you can see how horrific it was. Quite literally you can see the blood stained floorboards today from the civil war. You can still walk on them.
There is a place on the second floor where one of the surgeons had a bucket on the floor to hold his tools and the entire floor around it is stained with blood except for a small ring from the bucket which is unstained.
Highly recommend a tour of the house, grounds, and small museum especially if you like history. Plus let me know if you are in town. ;)
Wow.
My wife has ancestors that fought in the Battle of Franklin, and we’ve toured the house a couple of times. We’re planning on making it to the descendants gathering at some point.
The idea of my kids’ great-great-...-grandfather marching across that valley into the Union lines and near-certain defeat is haunting. They knew it was a lost cause, without question. We make it a point to play “The Bonnie Blue Flag” every time we drive through that area.
My wife has ancestors that fought in the Battle of Franklin, and we’ve toured the house a couple of times. We’re planning on making it to the descendants gathering at some point.
The idea of my kids’ great-great-...-grandfather marching across that valley into the Union lines and near-certain defeat is haunting. They knew it was a lost cause, without question. We make it a point to play “The Bonnie Blue Flag” every time we drive through that area.
The title is kind of clickbaity. TLDR they found some dead bodies and amputated limbs at the site of a field hospital where a major civil war battle took place. It’s an incredible find, but doesn’t paint any real picture of civil war era surgery, much less a “grim” one beyond what we already knew (that amputation was common).
Interesting fact contrary to popular belief: the vast majority of civil war surgeries involved some form of anesthesia. The notion that doctors were going around lopping off limbs of wide awake soldiers is a myth.
http://www.civilwarmed.org/anesthesia/
Interesting fact contrary to popular belief: the vast majority of civil war surgeries involved some form of anesthesia. The notion that doctors were going around lopping off limbs of wide awake soldiers is a myth.
http://www.civilwarmed.org/anesthesia/
Thanks for the summary and addendum - not sure why you're getting downvotes.
> the vast majority of civil war surgeries involved some form of anesthesia
I can't find the article at the moment but I recall seeing somewhere that it was pretty common for incorrect amounts of anesthesia to be administered and many patients waking up (or worse, being aware of their surroundings and able to feel pain but being unable to move or scream; a personal nightmare of mine). Even if this was a small minority of cases it's still haunting enough to leave a legend that roughly corresponds to the myth you cite.
> the vast majority of civil war surgeries involved some form of anesthesia
I can't find the article at the moment but I recall seeing somewhere that it was pretty common for incorrect amounts of anesthesia to be administered and many patients waking up (or worse, being aware of their surroundings and able to feel pain but being unable to move or scream; a personal nightmare of mine). Even if this was a small minority of cases it's still haunting enough to leave a legend that roughly corresponds to the myth you cite.
>> common for incorrect amounts of anesthesia to be administered and many patients waking up
It is a thing, but not during the civil war. The horror story happens when using drugs meant to paralyze internal organs. Those drugs don't make you sleep, just paralyze you and your organs so your intestines aren't squirming around as the doc tries to fix something. So if they give you that, but not the actual anesthetic, things go bad. Modern hospitals have devices to pick up on this situation. (In the extreme situation of full consciousness, anyone monitoring heart rate will notice something is very wrong.)
In civil war days this didn't happen as they didn't have the artificial respiration necessary to support such drugs. You could easily have been given not enough, but the paralysis-but-awake thing (true "anesthesia awareness") wouldn't happen.
It is a thing, but not during the civil war. The horror story happens when using drugs meant to paralyze internal organs. Those drugs don't make you sleep, just paralyze you and your organs so your intestines aren't squirming around as the doc tries to fix something. So if they give you that, but not the actual anesthetic, things go bad. Modern hospitals have devices to pick up on this situation. (In the extreme situation of full consciousness, anyone monitoring heart rate will notice something is very wrong.)
In civil war days this didn't happen as they didn't have the artificial respiration necessary to support such drugs. You could easily have been given not enough, but the paralysis-but-awake thing (true "anesthesia awareness") wouldn't happen.
In addition surgery, another place where this has chances of happening is in execution by lethal injection. One key ingredient, Pancuronium bromide, is a potent muscle relaxant. It paralyzes all voluntary muscles. You would have quite a bit of agony in store, if the pentothal dose was not adequate.
The main use of neuromuscular blockers is making it cheaper and faster. You can kill someone just as well with hypnotic drugs alone using a much higher dose, and using neuromuscular blockers as a reason to decrease hypnosis is IMO f*ing TORTURE. That a developed country cannot even find a way to kill people in a proper manner is beyond me.
I'd like to respectfully make you aware of some imprecisions in your statements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromuscular-blocking_drug
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesia_awareness
Specifically, neuromuscular blockers is what you seem to be referring to. Those paralyze only muscle, not other organs, and therefore have little influence on intestines. They are of multiple uses to both the anesthesiologist (intubation) and surgeons (easier to reach places normally crammed up by active muscle). There are ways to reduce intestinal activity specifically, but those are not very efficient (glucagon).
As for awareness situations, you are right in that they are more likely with neuromuscular blockers on board. However, research shows that the surgical context is of great importance, and situations where:
Detection of true awareness is difficult, since many people will tell you they woke up during surgery while it was in fact the end of surgery (from personal experience). It is not known how frequent true awareness really is, but it is commonly accepted to be quite rare, and this goes along with my personal experience.
If you are reasonably healthy, the chance of true awareness during surgery is IMO vanishingly small.
Civil war soldiers did indeed not have neuromuscular blockers, but since efficient sleep medication did not exist, true awareness was far more frequent (probably the norm, in fact).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromuscular-blocking_drug
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesia_awareness
Specifically, neuromuscular blockers is what you seem to be referring to. Those paralyze only muscle, not other organs, and therefore have little influence on intestines. They are of multiple uses to both the anesthesiologist (intubation) and surgeons (easier to reach places normally crammed up by active muscle). There are ways to reduce intestinal activity specifically, but those are not very efficient (glucagon).
As for awareness situations, you are right in that they are more likely with neuromuscular blockers on board. However, research shows that the surgical context is of great importance, and situations where:
- the patient is perceived as most fragile (cardiac surgery)
- or where things go too fast (emergency C-section)
Detection of true awareness is difficult, since many people will tell you they woke up during surgery while it was in fact the end of surgery (from personal experience). It is not known how frequent true awareness really is, but it is commonly accepted to be quite rare, and this goes along with my personal experience.
If you are reasonably healthy, the chance of true awareness during surgery is IMO vanishingly small.
Civil war soldiers did indeed not have neuromuscular blockers, but since efficient sleep medication did not exist, true awareness was far more frequent (probably the norm, in fact).
There was a French movie about that. Some thug killed a surgeons family, so he uses that paralysis drug to perform a colostomy, amongst other tortures.
There was also a hollywood movie, iirc starting Mila Kunis, called "Awake". Not something I would ever watch but I remember the commercials.
Yep, the Civil War-era lyrics to the song "Soldier's Joy" make a reference to morphine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier%27s_Joy_(fiddle_tune)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier%27s_Joy_(fiddle_tune)
Huh. I was gonna say I thought the Civil War predated morphine, but then I looked it up and it was discovered and packaged/sold a few decades before the war started. TIL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_soldiers_in_the_American...