Bangladesh imposes curfew after dozens killed in anti-government protests(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
Bangladesh imposes curfew after dozens killed in anti-government protests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/19/bangladesh-demonstrations-police-hasina/
222 comments
> Now the fascist gov has closed all internet
I agree that Sheikh Hasina is extremely authoritarian and corrupt dictator but imo JeI are the actual fascists, and the BNP has absolutely been enabling them.
That said, I agree with you that Hasina's authoritarianism needs to end.
Ideally all these old fossils (Hasina, Zia, Rahman, etc) need to be purged and the actual youth (who are the majority of Bangladesh) get a chance to have their voice in power.
It's a handful of elite 70 year olds who have been running a country where the median age is 25 and are ruining it due to their own personal drama from the 70s and 80s.
I agree that Sheikh Hasina is extremely authoritarian and corrupt dictator but imo JeI are the actual fascists, and the BNP has absolutely been enabling them.
That said, I agree with you that Hasina's authoritarianism needs to end.
Ideally all these old fossils (Hasina, Zia, Rahman, etc) need to be purged and the actual youth (who are the majority of Bangladesh) get a chance to have their voice in power.
It's a handful of elite 70 year olds who have been running a country where the median age is 25 and are ruining it due to their own personal drama from the 70s and 80s.
Independent of points for or against their rule, the ageist argument makes little sense. 25 year olds are generally politically naive and easily manipulated. The average person in their twenties has no idea about economics, geopolitics or other such topics that are important to understand for running a country. When you look at uprisings against ancient leaders in countries with very young populations, they regularly end up even worse then before, sadly. Take Sudan as an example.
GP didn't say that 25 years should become the elected leaders. But Sheikh Hasina (the current PM since 2008) was the leader of the opposition in 1986 at 39 years old [1], and then first became PM in 1996 at 49 years old. The ones who were PM from 1986 to today were all born in the 1940s [2].
Same is the case in Pakistan. Every prime minister since 1988 was born in the 40s or early 50s [3]. India's PMs have, on the other hand, been from even an older generation [4].
This post-independence generation captured all the political power in their 40s, and refuse to give it up 40 years later. Is it not reasonable to demand that the PM and Cabinet today are largely in their 40s?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Hasina
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ban...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Pak...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ind...
Same is the case in Pakistan. Every prime minister since 1988 was born in the 40s or early 50s [3]. India's PMs have, on the other hand, been from even an older generation [4].
This post-independence generation captured all the political power in their 40s, and refuse to give it up 40 years later. Is it not reasonable to demand that the PM and Cabinet today are largely in their 40s?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Hasina
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ban...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Pak...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ind...
Bangladesh is a democracy with free and fair elections.
If people wanted younger leaders they would have voted for them.
A revolution because you lost at the ballot box is ridiculous.
It’s not comparable to Pakistan where not a single Prime Minister has ever completed a full term and the country has been led explicitly by the military for decades and implicitly by the military for its entire existence.
If people wanted younger leaders they would have voted for them.
A revolution because you lost at the ballot box is ridiculous.
It’s not comparable to Pakistan where not a single Prime Minister has ever completed a full term and the country has been led explicitly by the military for decades and implicitly by the military for its entire existence.
You should perhaps check what just happened in the January elections in Bangladesh. The opposition parties did not compete because they didn't think the elections were fair. The result was [1]
> The Awami League, led by incumbent Sheikh Hasina, won the election for the fourth consecutive time with less than 40% of the eligible voters voting according to an Election Commission, which is run by the ruling political party.[5][2][6][7] The party won 224 seats while independent candidates, most of whom were Awami League members propped up as dummy candidates to give a semblance of competition, won 62 seats.
You can click back to the last few elections on wiki, and see how much evidence there is of unfree/rigged elections in Bangladesh.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Bangladeshi_general_elect...
> The Awami League, led by incumbent Sheikh Hasina, won the election for the fourth consecutive time with less than 40% of the eligible voters voting according to an Election Commission, which is run by the ruling political party.[5][2][6][7] The party won 224 seats while independent candidates, most of whom were Awami League members propped up as dummy candidates to give a semblance of competition, won 62 seats.
You can click back to the last few elections on wiki, and see how much evidence there is of unfree/rigged elections in Bangladesh.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Bangladeshi_general_elect...
> Bangladesh is a democracy with free and fair elections.
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
If that's the lens you're looking at, the majority of uprisings in history have ended up worse than they started. Bangladesh is struggling with a democracy that has degraded into authoritarian gerontocracy. It's not as simple as young people dumb old people experienced, there's a lot of issues involved.
^^^ this.
Revolutions turn into civil wars.
We forget but this is the sad reality.
This doesn't mean the students in Gulistan Maidan are wrong, but "Allah, Suriya, y Bashar" and the converse means a 15 year civil war like in Syria or 15 miles away from Chittagong in Myanmar (aka Asian Syria/Libya)
Khuda ki kasm - please walk off this brink Bangladesh (if someone Hasina adjacent is reading).
Revolutions turn into civil wars.
We forget but this is the sad reality.
This doesn't mean the students in Gulistan Maidan are wrong, but "Allah, Suriya, y Bashar" and the converse means a 15 year civil war like in Syria or 15 miles away from Chittagong in Myanmar (aka Asian Syria/Libya)
Khuda ki kasm - please walk off this brink Bangladesh (if someone Hasina adjacent is reading).
I am not sure why you are being downvoted but a "youth" revolt will most certainly end up the country in a worst state than it is right now. Much more worse.
Revolutions are always made by young, are not they?
Age profiles of countries are very different around the world. The median age in France is 41, in Sudan it's 18! Just think about what a median age of 18 means - half their population is even younger than that. So when you have Yellow Vests trying to shut down the government in Europe, those are a very different age group compared to Sudanese kids taking to the streets.
I think I can guess why the comment is controversial. Some may have taken it as an authoritarianism apology, which isn't the intention. It's rather a reminder that things are more complex than just rooting for what intuitively feels right, because the average Westerners has little understanding of how such countries work. Since my point is the average citizen doesn't even sufficiently understand, and surely you will agree you understand less about Bangladesh than a student who grew up there.
There are many such examples. Taking out Gaddafi has not proven to be positive for Libya. Sometimes the "old witch" is actually the lesser evil. I'm talking strictly about politics in terms of practical reality, not what we wish were true. Of course we all root for the people to win and then they live happily ever after.
I think I can guess why the comment is controversial. Some may have taken it as an authoritarianism apology, which isn't the intention. It's rather a reminder that things are more complex than just rooting for what intuitively feels right, because the average Westerners has little understanding of how such countries work. Since my point is the average citizen doesn't even sufficiently understand, and surely you will agree you understand less about Bangladesh than a student who grew up there.
There are many such examples. Taking out Gaddafi has not proven to be positive for Libya. Sometimes the "old witch" is actually the lesser evil. I'm talking strictly about politics in terms of practical reality, not what we wish were true. Of course we all root for the people to win and then they live happily ever after.
> agree that Sheikh Hasina is extremely authoritarian and corrupt dictator but imo JeI are the actual fascists
The challenge of escalating partisanship is self-reïnforcing polarisation. The worse the leadership, the worse the opposition.
The operant question, thus, is not who is good but who is less evil, in the hope that this ratchet, a few times turned, yields goodness.
The challenge of escalating partisanship is self-reïnforcing polarisation. The worse the leadership, the worse the opposition.
The operant question, thus, is not who is good but who is less evil, in the hope that this ratchet, a few times turned, yields goodness.
I might be a few beers in, but I don't quite understand your thesis.
Politics in developing countries is a business, not ideological.
Ain't no good guys - only bad guys.
Everyone's in on making enough out of the grift to emigrate to the US or the UK (just like Sheikh Hasina and her opponent Khalida Zia's children)
Politics in developing countries is a business, not ideological.
Ain't no good guys - only bad guys.
Everyone's in on making enough out of the grift to emigrate to the US or the UK (just like Sheikh Hasina and her opponent Khalida Zia's children)
> Politics in developing countries is a business, not ideological.
What a joke! Imperialism flourished due to corporates being allowed to own their own private armies. The US is the best example of a country that exists for, and is run by corporates - and that happened because the older European powers clamped down on corporates, and they fled to the US.
What a joke! Imperialism flourished due to corporates being allowed to own their own private armies. The US is the best example of a country that exists for, and is run by corporates - and that happened because the older European powers clamped down on corporates, and they fled to the US.
> that happened because the older European powers clamped down on corporates, and they fled to the US
This comment is a lot of nonsense, but this takes the cake. America has always had more powerful private interests than Europe.
This comment is a lot of nonsense, but this takes the cake. America has always had more powerful private interests than Europe.
Yeah I think "fascist" is too much for any actor not JeI but authoritarian is right. They've cut off Internet and telecom access after all, a dangerous game given how physically close they are to West Bengal.
> Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Source: Wikipedia
This sounds like the very definition of fascism to me.
Source: Wikipedia
This sounds like the very definition of fascism to me.
Which part sounds like fascism?
The Awami League is ideologically a center-left party, it's not far right. The quota system that's being protested offers employment quotas to descendants of revolutionaries and minorities. It was the party that founded Bangladesh. Protests are occurring because of the corruption and joblessness that results from these quotas and because the law was overturned earlier but reinstated.
Moreover there's no belief in a natural social hierarchy or belief in subordination to the State. If anything the Awami League has historically claimed to champion minorities in the country like Hindus instead of championing Muslim identities like JeI. There's no concept of regimemting society at all by the Awami League, again that's more JeI's domain with its belief in Sharia.
Awami League is authoritarian and corrupt yes but not fascist. The Middle East has plenty of authoritarian dictatorships that engage in varying levels of human rights abuses but that does not make them fascist countries.
I'm sorry but your comment just comes off as really uniformed about Bdesh and South Asian politics.
The Awami League is ideologically a center-left party, it's not far right. The quota system that's being protested offers employment quotas to descendants of revolutionaries and minorities. It was the party that founded Bangladesh. Protests are occurring because of the corruption and joblessness that results from these quotas and because the law was overturned earlier but reinstated.
Moreover there's no belief in a natural social hierarchy or belief in subordination to the State. If anything the Awami League has historically claimed to champion minorities in the country like Hindus instead of championing Muslim identities like JeI. There's no concept of regimemting society at all by the Awami League, again that's more JeI's domain with its belief in Sharia.
Awami League is authoritarian and corrupt yes but not fascist. The Middle East has plenty of authoritarian dictatorships that engage in varying levels of human rights abuses but that does not make them fascist countries.
I'm sorry but your comment just comes off as really uniformed about Bdesh and South Asian politics.
I'm very uninformed about Bangladeshi and South Asian politics but yes the violent suppression of protests and killing of protestors are the parts that sound a bit fascist to me.
Look I realize on lefty parts of the internet that fascism has colloquially become the same as authoritarianism but they are not the same thing. Fascist movements are usually authoritarian but not all authoritarian regimes are fascist.
It's an especially bad lens when you look outside the West because the second and third world has had plenty of trouble with left authoritarian regimes and comparatively less trouble with fascism and authoritarian right regimes.
It's an especially bad lens when you look outside the West because the second and third world has had plenty of trouble with left authoritarian regimes and comparatively less trouble with fascism and authoritarian right regimes.
> Fascist movements are usually authoritarian but not all authoritarian regimes are fascist.
A simple example would be hundreds of years of authoritarian monarchies and theocracies. Nobody wants to retroactively label them as Fascist, and for good reason.
I prefer the "Palingenetic Ultranationalism" definition [0], where fascism is largely distinguished by what myths and stories people are using to demand power.
Often along the lines of: "Not too long ago This Nation was the best, but not anymore. There is one and only one chance to fix it, which will require a destructive resurrection that only Pure People Leaders can do. You have to give them all the power right now or else everything will be bad forever because impure people somehow."
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalis...
A simple example would be hundreds of years of authoritarian monarchies and theocracies. Nobody wants to retroactively label them as Fascist, and for good reason.
I prefer the "Palingenetic Ultranationalism" definition [0], where fascism is largely distinguished by what myths and stories people are using to demand power.
Often along the lines of: "Not too long ago This Nation was the best, but not anymore. There is one and only one chance to fix it, which will require a destructive resurrection that only Pure People Leaders can do. You have to give them all the power right now or else everything will be bad forever because impure people somehow."
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalis...
^^^ THIS
If you're part of the minority Hindu and Christian community in Bangladesh you support Hasina, because the opposition made a coalition deal with hard-core Islamists (JeI) who are supporting the gold digger wife of the former (1980s) Military Dictator who was a puppet (like every other politician in Bangladesh sadly)
This does NOT mean Hasina is good.
Anything but.
Authoritarian quasi-secularism means the only organized opposition is fundamentalist, like in Central Asia like Tajikia, Uzbekia, Kyrgyzia, Afghanistan, Parts of Pakistan, etc, or the India my parents grew up in during the 1980s.
Sheikh Hasina (literally) based her public persona on Indira Gandhi. All the Desis on HN know what that implies.
Sheikh Hasina is a left-leaning autocratic. She protects the Hindu, Christian, and Buddhist minority, but her authoritarianism against the religious Islamic community of Bangladesh (plus Khalida Zia's and moreso Shaibur Rahman's Pakistani funded bullshit) means the only organized opposition are non-secular.
As a Koshur-Hindu American, Hasina (and her enabler across the border) are playing with fire.
Bangladesh has strong institutions , diaspora, and economic relations (most factories in WB moved to BD because of bad policies and the FTA). Hasina is squandering them because of her childhood traumas.
Please please please become a Indonesia instead of a Myanmar
If you're part of the minority Hindu and Christian community in Bangladesh you support Hasina, because the opposition made a coalition deal with hard-core Islamists (JeI) who are supporting the gold digger wife of the former (1980s) Military Dictator who was a puppet (like every other politician in Bangladesh sadly)
This does NOT mean Hasina is good.
Anything but.
Authoritarian quasi-secularism means the only organized opposition is fundamentalist, like in Central Asia like Tajikia, Uzbekia, Kyrgyzia, Afghanistan, Parts of Pakistan, etc, or the India my parents grew up in during the 1980s.
Sheikh Hasina (literally) based her public persona on Indira Gandhi. All the Desis on HN know what that implies.
Sheikh Hasina is a left-leaning autocratic. She protects the Hindu, Christian, and Buddhist minority, but her authoritarianism against the religious Islamic community of Bangladesh (plus Khalida Zia's and moreso Shaibur Rahman's Pakistani funded bullshit) means the only organized opposition are non-secular.
As a Koshur-Hindu American, Hasina (and her enabler across the border) are playing with fire.
Bangladesh has strong institutions , diaspora, and economic relations (most factories in WB moved to BD because of bad policies and the FTA). Hasina is squandering them because of her childhood traumas.
Please please please become a Indonesia instead of a Myanmar
> the second and third world has had plenty of trouble with left authoritarian regimes and comparatively less trouble with fascism and authoritarian right regimes.
fake news
fake news
You're also very uninformed about what the word "fascist" means.
> The Middle East
If Bangladesh is the "Middle East" then so is Burma/Myanmar and Thailand (which is at most 200 miles from the Bangladesh border)
If Bangladesh is the "Middle East" then so is Burma/Myanmar and Thailand (which is at most 200 miles from the Bangladesh border)
Bangladesh is definitely not the Middle East. I just figured the kind of person who thinks of authoritarianism as fascism is more likely to be familiar with authoritarian governments in the Middle East because they're covered in Western mainstream news outlets and aren't treated as fascist regimes.
In English, Bangladesh is not Middle East. In German, it is. Israel is Near East from our perspective.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittlerer_Osten
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittlerer_Osten
Wow, I had no idea that "Middle East" referred to different regions in different languages - that's interesting.
Btw we say "Near East" in English too and it's vaguely defined but it usually includes Israel. But I don't think it's wrong to say that Israel is in the "Middle East" too - the two terms overlap somewhat.
Btw we say "Near East" in English too and it's vaguely defined but it usually includes Israel. But I don't think it's wrong to say that Israel is in the "Middle East" too - the two terms overlap somewhat.
I didn't read this as OP saying Bangladesh is in the middle east, but rather an example of authoritarian countries they'd assume we have all heard bad things about but nobody calls them fascist.
Many people want to either tiptoe around or flat out ignore the far right leanings of fascism to avoid what it says about the US
"Leanings"?
You're right, that's too gentle of phrasing. Fascism is a 100% far right ideology. Please excuse my Ameribrain, I'm continuously bathed in conservative capitalist and neoliberal propaganda
That’s a terrible idea and would set Bangladesh back generations. Hasina is authoritarian, but Bangladeshis need someone like her to run such a disorderly population. She’s not Lee Kuan Yew, but she’s the best in that direction Bangladesh can hope for. And a third-rate copy of LKY is a hell of a lot better than whatever Islamic socialist would replace her.
I don't disagree given the political situation in Bangladesh right now but if Hasina were LKY or even Erdogan this wouldn't be happening. The situation is as it is because Hasina couldn't govern it.
Idk why you're downvoted, but that aside I'm not sure about your thesis.
It's kinda tough following Desi politics tbh - you want to be honest about ideals, but the reality is everyone in the home country is "Chust".
Idk, if Sheikh Hasina was a LKY or even a Park Cheung He then the protests seen the past week wouldn't have happened.
I guess the BAP is now facing the Zhao question (or Indira in Tughlabad Distict in 1976) - to shoot or not shoot. Either way India, China, Russia, and the Gulf will continue to give her and the BAP sanction relief because she's built strong relations with everyone.
I'm not Muslim so I automatically lean more towards Hasina (Zia's enabling of the JeI is a dealbreaker and would automatically result in a civil war or even Indian intervention if she became PM), but if she decided to remain quasi-democratic she cannot find a middle ground. Either she becomes a full blown authoritarian or she has to cede power. A Hybrid Regime is inherently unstable.
It's kinda tough following Desi politics tbh - you want to be honest about ideals, but the reality is everyone in the home country is "Chust".
Idk, if Sheikh Hasina was a LKY or even a Park Cheung He then the protests seen the past week wouldn't have happened.
I guess the BAP is now facing the Zhao question (or Indira in Tughlabad Distict in 1976) - to shoot or not shoot. Either way India, China, Russia, and the Gulf will continue to give her and the BAP sanction relief because she's built strong relations with everyone.
I'm not Muslim so I automatically lean more towards Hasina (Zia's enabling of the JeI is a dealbreaker and would automatically result in a civil war or even Indian intervention if she became PM), but if she decided to remain quasi-democratic she cannot find a middle ground. Either she becomes a full blown authoritarian or she has to cede power. A Hybrid Regime is inherently unstable.
> It's a handful of elite 70 year olds who have been running a country where the median age is 25 and are ruining it due to their own personal drama from the 70s and 80s.
Really? Are you going to totally ignore that it is those very 25+ years old that gave the current premiere of Bangladesh her massive majority? (See also https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/88356/why-are-m... ).
> That said, I agree with you that Hasina's authoritarianism needs to end. ...
Beware of what you wish for! It's all nice and easy to harp at "undemocratic" and "authoritarianism". But understand the political context and history of Bangladesh before passing such blanket judgement. The reality of Bangladesh politics is:
1. Political violence is a fact there - Mrs. Hasina's father, a hugely popular leader, was assassinated and 18 members of her family, including her 10-year-old brother, and relatives were massacred. She had to seek refuge abroad to survive.
2. Bangladesh has also seen many military coups.
3. Some opposition parties of Bangladesh are backed by the military.
4. Some of the opposition lean towards religious fundamentalism and, as you pointed out, also associate with extremist groups.
5. Foreign powers - USA (and other western countries acting in cohort with the US), China and India - often interfere in Bangladesh's internal affairs.
(Source: https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/80654/ )
Being a young democracy, amidst such a political environment necessarily requires an authoritarian streak in a politician to survive and to nurture a secular democracy. As an indian, I genuinely admire her commitment to create a democracy in an Islamic republic that is easily prone to religious fundamentalism and sectarianism - sometimes she reminds me of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who did the same with Turkiye. (Remember that Bangladesh is one of the few islamic Republics that has actually committed to democratic political values).
-----
All that said, it is very clear that the current protests were very poorly handled and will be politically damaging to her, and could be a turning point in Bangladesh politics. Whether it will be good for Bangladesh totally depends on how her government handles these protest. Even if the matter is sub-judice, and being examined by the Bangladesh Supreme Court, the government should have engaged more deeply with the protestors and anticipated the political violence.
Really? Are you going to totally ignore that it is those very 25+ years old that gave the current premiere of Bangladesh her massive majority? (See also https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/88356/why-are-m... ).
> That said, I agree with you that Hasina's authoritarianism needs to end. ...
Beware of what you wish for! It's all nice and easy to harp at "undemocratic" and "authoritarianism". But understand the political context and history of Bangladesh before passing such blanket judgement. The reality of Bangladesh politics is:
1. Political violence is a fact there - Mrs. Hasina's father, a hugely popular leader, was assassinated and 18 members of her family, including her 10-year-old brother, and relatives were massacred. She had to seek refuge abroad to survive.
2. Bangladesh has also seen many military coups.
3. Some opposition parties of Bangladesh are backed by the military.
4. Some of the opposition lean towards religious fundamentalism and, as you pointed out, also associate with extremist groups.
5. Foreign powers - USA (and other western countries acting in cohort with the US), China and India - often interfere in Bangladesh's internal affairs.
(Source: https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/80654/ )
Being a young democracy, amidst such a political environment necessarily requires an authoritarian streak in a politician to survive and to nurture a secular democracy. As an indian, I genuinely admire her commitment to create a democracy in an Islamic republic that is easily prone to religious fundamentalism and sectarianism - sometimes she reminds me of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who did the same with Turkiye. (Remember that Bangladesh is one of the few islamic Republics that has actually committed to democratic political values).
-----
All that said, it is very clear that the current protests were very poorly handled and will be politically damaging to her, and could be a turning point in Bangladesh politics. Whether it will be good for Bangladesh totally depends on how her government handles these protest. Even if the matter is sub-judice, and being examined by the Bangladesh Supreme Court, the government should have engaged more deeply with the protestors and anticipated the political violence.
Thank you for the information. I'm sorry for you and your family. Are public jobs so numerous that a lot of people survive off of them?
I think it's more about justice than the number of jobs or whether you get it or not. Many people will be happy when they perceive that a fair process has been established in granting these jobs. Especially when income is hard to come by.
At 140,000 square kilometres, Bangladesh is about the size of New York State, with 170 million people. Problems are inevitable, there are not so many job opportunities at all, and there will always be people who are dissatisfied
Nope. It won't be numerous but grab whatever of the tiny pie is the point. I am from neigboring country but situation is same for jobs. For 10 govt job, 10K people can show up and create riot like situation in little time.
Thank you, the news article was suspiciously stingy on these salient details.
Why are you seething about this from the other side of the world?
You are presumably an intelligent person, but you, and everyone else that could, left your home country for economic opportunities elsewhere. Now, your home country is administrated and governed by the people without the opportunity to leave and you are on the other side of the world.
I think it is extremely weird to see the people with the best opportunity to reshape their country leave and then from overseas complain about the politics in that country.
You are presumably an intelligent person, but you, and everyone else that could, left your home country for economic opportunities elsewhere. Now, your home country is administrated and governed by the people without the opportunity to leave and you are on the other side of the world.
I think it is extremely weird to see the people with the best opportunity to reshape their country leave and then from overseas complain about the politics in that country.
What do you mean by seething? Their comment appears emotionally balanced to me.
Honestly, it sounds like you want to gatekeep political discussion. Am I misunderstanding you?
Honestly, it sounds like you want to gatekeep political discussion. Am I misunderstanding you?
>Honestly, it sounds like you want to gatekeep political discussion.
Seething about the politics of the country you left behind means you have gate kept yourself already.
Seething about the politics of the country you left behind means you have gate kept yourself already.
Huh? Even if he was seethings, why is caring about your family a bad thing? Is your opinion suddenly not relevant anymore when you've fled the country? Weird mindset
>Is your opinion suddenly not relevant anymore when you've fled the country?
Again and again the most intelligent people emigrate to the West and then seethe about the politics in their home country. I get why they do it, but it is really obnoxious. One main reason why developing countries have bad politics, is because everyone intelligent is leaving for the west and the same people who, for their own economic interest have left, are then agitating from the other side of the world for political change.
In some real way, leaving your home country also means leaving behind the ability to change anything about it.
Again and again the most intelligent people emigrate to the West and then seethe about the politics in their home country. I get why they do it, but it is really obnoxious. One main reason why developing countries have bad politics, is because everyone intelligent is leaving for the west and the same people who, for their own economic interest have left, are then agitating from the other side of the world for political change.
In some real way, leaving your home country also means leaving behind the ability to change anything about it.
I'd call it a US-manipulated military oligarchy with a democratic facade:
https://theintercept.com/2023/06/05/imran-khan-interview/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/10/did-us-ask-for-imra...
https://theintercept.com/2023/06/05/imran-khan-interview/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/10/did-us-ask-for-imra...
> But our fascist gov and their goons used force and killed 50+ unarmed students until yesterday (3 from my alma mater alone.)
Not sure if you're a troll or not, but that would be related to Israel and Palestine.
I think it's worth noting why this is happening. The country has been giving out degrees and jobs to people who instead of working and studying hard, to descendants of veterans in the country's war against pakistan, and this level of nepotism has been going on since the 70s which as you can easily imagine is not great for those who see the value in getting these "basic livelihood for hard work" things. So when people started protesting recently, because for anyone with half a brain this is completely wrong, the people without half a brain who benefit from this completely fucked system responded by killing and raping students and now there's no internet.
This is definitely how you drain a country of all its competent people very fast by the way.
This is definitely how you drain a country of all its competent people very fast by the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Chhatra_League
The ruling party seems to be allied with a student paramilitary to help act as their enforcers.
"Chhatra League distributes dormitory seats at Chittagong University instead of authorities. Only those who join Chhatra League after being enrolled, get the chance to stay in the residential halls."
The ruling party seems to be allied with a student paramilitary to help act as their enforcers.
"Chhatra League distributes dormitory seats at Chittagong University instead of authorities. Only those who join Chhatra League after being enrolled, get the chance to stay in the residential halls."
Slight quibble - the student paramilitary IS part of Hasina's party (BAP).
It's the student wing.
In South Asia, all party student wings are basically paramilitaries and gangs.
It's the student wing.
In South Asia, all party student wings are basically paramilitaries and gangs.
It reminds me a lot of the Red Guards - the greatest disaster could come from the party losing control of these groups.
The original Indian and Pakistani founders had Soviet education and influences. Moreover the Comintern was one of the only fora at the time that was openly in support of decolonization. The similarities aren't coincidental.
Father of nation of both India and Pakistan were educated in England under English traditions.
Sorry didn't mean to imply Nehru, Gandhi, or Jinna were educated in the Soviet Union. Just that revolutionaries and early Communist Party leaders who were influential to independence were influenced by or spent time in the Soviet Union.
[deleted]
Basically. Similar ideological (as in anti-authoritarian turned authoritarian) background.
I have a thesis musting somewhere in Cambridge MA about this parallel.
I have a thesis musting somewhere in Cambridge MA about this parallel.
As a layreader of history, i've noticed the more ideological, the more they are prone to authoritarianism. And it makes sense if you think about it. It's why paternalistic revolutions always devolve into authoritarian nonsense.
Reminds me of the summer of 2020 in America
Can you elaborate?
What about it do you not know or understand about the civil unrest that occurred in America?
When I googled “2020 summer of love riots” in the first results are the Wikipedia page and an article from the heritage foundation that both probably give you an idea
When I googled “2020 summer of love riots” in the first results are the Wikipedia page and an article from the heritage foundation that both probably give you an idea
I didn't get the connection to the parent post: how and why it reminded you of 2020.
> In South Asia, all party student wings are basically paramilitaries and gangs.
Interesting- that's how it is in Nigeria, another former British colony:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confraternities_in_Nigeria
Though those sound more like militarized cults, while the South Asian ones are more like student orgs of political parties that have street militias.
Interesting- that's how it is in Nigeria, another former British colony:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confraternities_in_Nigeria
Though those sound more like militarized cults, while the South Asian ones are more like student orgs of political parties that have street militias.
I don’t think the confraternities in Nigeria are the same. At least they don’t share hostel bed spaces to students and aren’t recognized by school administrations. In most Nigerian schools, you’d actually be expelled if evidence of your membership of any of these secret organizations surface.
Yeah, they’re only superficially similar in that they’re both college-based groups capable of force.
> The general secretary of Bangladesh Chhatra League Jahangirnagar University unit, Jasimuddin Manik and his followers celebrated the rape of 100th girls including at least 20 students of the university in 1998.
Is it poverty that brings out the worst in people? Or something else?
Is it poverty that brings out the worst in people? Or something else?
Plenty of rich people celebrating rapes and children being bombed in Gaza, so I doubt it's poverty.
What were they up to on October 6? I wonder what could have happened that might have brought out the retributive side. Surely the broad support for terrorism pushed by Qatari money and slow-burning propaganda couldn't have further inflamed them for the umpteenth time in 3000+ years of suffering and trying to avoid abuse... /shrug
If it was really a response to Saudi Arabia on the verge of signing a peace agreement with Israel, what would that say about the unfortunate aggressors?
If it was really a response to Saudi Arabia on the verge of signing a peace agreement with Israel, what would that say about the unfortunate aggressors?
Important to note it wasn't just a 'war against Pakistan', but a war for independence from Pakistan [1], which also included a genocide against Bengalis by Pakistan and their allies [2].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_genocide
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_genocide
from that link about the Bangladesh genocide (wow, I never heard of this):
> Pakistan's imams declared Bengali Hindu women to be "war booty”;[11][12] and Pakistani fatwa were issued legitimizing Bengali Hindu women as spoils of war.[12][13] Women who were targeted often died in Pakistani captivity or committed suicide, while others fled to India.
This is based on a non-contextual reading of Quran 4:24, Quran 8:69, Quran 23:5-6:, Quran 33:50 and various hadiths, which continue to be taken literally (when it is convenient to do so) by belligerents, hundreds of years after they were written. I refuse to cite them here because they are offensive to humanitarian/modern ethical worldviews (and because I do not wish to play a game of moral relativism).
> Pakistan's imams declared Bengali Hindu women to be "war booty”;[11][12] and Pakistani fatwa were issued legitimizing Bengali Hindu women as spoils of war.[12][13] Women who were targeted often died in Pakistani captivity or committed suicide, while others fled to India.
This is based on a non-contextual reading of Quran 4:24, Quran 8:69, Quran 23:5-6:, Quran 33:50 and various hadiths, which continue to be taken literally (when it is convenient to do so) by belligerents, hundreds of years after they were written. I refuse to cite them here because they are offensive to humanitarian/modern ethical worldviews (and because I do not wish to play a game of moral relativism).
I’ll provide the links for the two suras cited above for the curious:
An Nisa (the women) - https://quran.com/4, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa. In dowry and inheritance matters it’s actually quite advanced for its age.
Al Anfal (the spoils of war) - https://quran.com/8, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal. These are, of course, orthogonal to our moral values but not more depraved than bounty customs employed hundreds of years afterwards.
Prophet Mohammed himself took one fifth of the spoils, including taking women as wives, eg see Safiyya bint Huyayy, who was his tenth wife after her tribe was killed (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy).
I’m missing your point about adhering to these “when it’s convenient”. This was standard practice for Muslim armies for hundreds of years afterwards (of course others did the same).
An Nisa (the women) - https://quran.com/4, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa. In dowry and inheritance matters it’s actually quite advanced for its age.
Al Anfal (the spoils of war) - https://quran.com/8, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal. These are, of course, orthogonal to our moral values but not more depraved than bounty customs employed hundreds of years afterwards.
Prophet Mohammed himself took one fifth of the spoils, including taking women as wives, eg see Safiyya bint Huyayy, who was his tenth wife after her tribe was killed (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy).
I’m missing your point about adhering to these “when it’s convenient”. This was standard practice for Muslim armies for hundreds of years afterwards (of course others did the same).
I understand that. It's just that many people still use these passages to the present day to justify bad behavior.
That is what all religious texts and institutions effectively do. Take moral standards of centuries and millennium before and force it on today.
Sure. But only one of them seems to result in a massively disproportionate level of violence. And not just violence due to a difference of religion, but violence done in the very name of the religion
Not just the one. Both old and new testament have lot of violence and mysognistic rhetoric if you read them literally.
It may not seem like it today , Christianity is a bloody religion of conquest throughout most of its history, just the last 500 years had countless genocides conducted all over the world in its name. Gold , Glory and God was the theme of all colonization, before that period we had the another 500 years of religious wars like the crusades.
Islam is hardly the sole or even the largest abuser of faith. It is merely newest major one
It may not seem like it today , Christianity is a bloody religion of conquest throughout most of its history, just the last 500 years had countless genocides conducted all over the world in its name. Gold , Glory and God was the theme of all colonization, before that period we had the another 500 years of religious wars like the crusades.
Islam is hardly the sole or even the largest abuser of faith. It is merely newest major one
Good points. I wonder how Catholicism did away with justifying the Crusades. Although I would add that Islam has been consistently bloody since inception.
I have since learned that the Crusades were actually a direct response to Islamic aggression, so that comparison sort of goes out the window
Degrees as well as jobs? Are Bangladeshi universities diploma mills?
People who run a country into the ground are happy to maintain the status quo as long as they're getting their share? Who knew!?
I don't know about running a country to the ground. They are economically doing quite well with metrics exceeding those of neighboring countries like India.
Yeah, this is really far from accurate, which is absolutely not to justify Sheikh Hasina's antics. GDP has shot up in the 21st century and the trend growth appears to be accelerating. Bangladesh was a very poor country, but it is getting rich fast.
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/BGD?zo...
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/bangladesh-is-the-new-asian-ti...
Conjecture: there is no exit from despotry because more than deriving happiness from the current state, the despot fears dissolution. A counter-example might be post apartheid South Africa or Idi Amin’s exile, but there are sufficient examples of worse personal and family outcomes to rule out simple projections of psychopaths.
[deleted]
bilbo0s(3)
gadders(1)
dakiol(1)
Country probably entirely underwater in the next 50 years anyways....
So its inhabitants need to be subjected to injustices for another 50 years?
Talking about why it is happening is helpful.
I’m just surprised nobody is talking about the reason the government claims it has limited access to information: preventing disinformation.
Not a single person here has commented about disinformation, but it is the single most applicable part of this article for Americans.
Preventing the spread of disinformation has been the supposed in the last decade reason for the largest censorship campaigns our nation has ever seen.
I’m just surprised nobody is talking about the reason the government claims it has limited access to information: preventing disinformation.
Not a single person here has commented about disinformation, but it is the single most applicable part of this article for Americans.
Preventing the spread of disinformation has been the supposed in the last decade reason for the largest censorship campaigns our nation has ever seen.
Which nation are you from?
This protest, which started peacefully is currently the consequence of absolute mishandling and mismanagement by the government that resulted in close to 100 being shot dead by the police.
The current protest is not about the quota system anymore. It is the result of the systematic breakdown of social and economic opportunities that stems from years of corruption and favouritism within every sect of the economy.
The current protest is not about the quota system anymore. It is the result of the systematic breakdown of social and economic opportunities that stems from years of corruption and favouritism within every sect of the economy.
I changed the URL from https://mastodon.social/@netblocks/112808500770031751 after getting this email from a user:
If you figure the event is significant enough to be on the front page, isn't something about the event itself more appropriate? as opposed to a tweet about the network being down as stand-in
That seems like a good point. I hope it doesn't context-shift the comments too much (I'm in a meeting atm and don't have time to check.)
If you figure the event is significant enough to be on the front page, isn't something about the event itself more appropriate? as opposed to a tweet about the network being down as stand-in
That seems like a good point. I hope it doesn't context-shift the comments too much (I'm in a meeting atm and don't have time to check.)
I've talked with a guy from Bangladesh over the last 3 days and he said that he was at a party and he was about to be killed, so he stopped going and started filming how other students are being beaten by local police. The fact that the government blocked the internet is pretty sad and I wish that no more people die.
> he was at a party and he was about to be killed
I feel like your story is really missing some details.
I feel like your story is really missing some details.
Has there been any indication from NetBlocks how they think the government is blocking internet access? I can still see subnets being announced from Bangledesh associated providers.
AS 17494 AS 38592 AS 136246 AS 152304 AS 24323
AS 17494 AS 38592 AS 136246 AS 152304 AS 24323
There is also a widespread cellular outage. It's very, very difficult (near impossible) to reach anyone in the country right now.
My friends are mostly Bdesh expats at this point. I wonder how dangerous it would be to setup a link from Bdesh into India. It would be a useful lifeline. Best wishes for the students and the people of Bdesh, but the stuff we were seeing as late as yesterday on Twitter was ugly. I hope those that can are using their mobiles to take proof.
The last thing India wants is Bangladeshi refugees. I mean the Modi government is actively in the process of trying to expel the Muslim Bangladeshis that came in the 1970s.
Sorry when I meant link I specifically meant a network link. A way to route net traffic out of the country. It wouldn't be too hard given how far the outskirts of Dhaka are from the West Bengal border and plenty of Indian Bengalis have ties in Bangladesh.
When governments do such things, expect bad results. The protesters' demands aren't unreasonable at all. Just be meritocratic in civil service appointments.
Yep, it's easy. Just flip the "off" switch on the privilege structure that a huge chunk of the people who operate your society benefit from (and expect their children to benefit from). What could possibly go wrong?
It's not so obvious to me. I think it's easy for a rich country to just "solve" security by throwing money at fancy gear, but these poor countries they must have some way of incentivizing people to die helplessly in a ditch. Handing out privileges to relatives is one such way.
There is some similarity to the system of nobility. Although this seems to give lesser privileges but to more people compared to that.
Now what these protests reveal is that similar to the warriors of the past, these protestors are willing to risk death for these privileges. This suggests a pragmatic solution, that instead of abolishing the privilege, they could offer a path for these protestors to also be granted it. This could redirect their youthful energy and ambition into more useful avenues.
</armchair>
There is some similarity to the system of nobility. Although this seems to give lesser privileges but to more people compared to that.
Now what these protests reveal is that similar to the warriors of the past, these protestors are willing to risk death for these privileges. This suggests a pragmatic solution, that instead of abolishing the privilege, they could offer a path for these protestors to also be granted it. This could redirect their youthful energy and ambition into more useful avenues.
</armchair>
Anyone know more about Starlink availability in Bangladesh? I see there were some news articles last year mentioning trials. And the prohibitive cost to the locals.
If you need visuals of the flatlining here it is: https://radar.cloudflare.com/traffic/bd
A friend of mine who works in a startup in Bangladesh tells me that critical infrastructure is being set on fire indiscriminately. Buildings such as data centers. He shared videos of many such burning buildings. The country doesn’t yet have resilient infrastructure. For example, internet and telecommunication go through a single point of failure. Last year, that building was accidentally set on fire and it led to 2 weeks of poor internet for everyone.
Bangladesh as such has a severe lack of capital, and rebuilding all this is costly.
Ideally protests should be peaceful. But along with protestors, we tend to unleash anarchists who just want to watch the world burn.
They also have rival political parties who clearly use this situation to their advantage.
All is not what it seems. Truth is whatever you believe.
I hope for a swift restoration of law and order, followed by productive dialogue. And for the love of god, let’s not condone setting things on fire. That will destroy innocent lives and what little financial security they have built.
Bangladesh as such has a severe lack of capital, and rebuilding all this is costly.
Ideally protests should be peaceful. But along with protestors, we tend to unleash anarchists who just want to watch the world burn.
They also have rival political parties who clearly use this situation to their advantage.
All is not what it seems. Truth is whatever you believe.
I hope for a swift restoration of law and order, followed by productive dialogue. And for the love of god, let’s not condone setting things on fire. That will destroy innocent lives and what little financial security they have built.
> Ideally protests should be peaceful.
Other people in the thread are saying that Bangladesh is a dictatorship, and security forces are killing people for protesting.
Just to be clear, if that's the case, violence against the state is entirely justified. There is nothing morally wrong about rebelling against autocracy, in fact, it's quite a good thing.
Other people in the thread are saying that Bangladesh is a dictatorship, and security forces are killing people for protesting.
Just to be clear, if that's the case, violence against the state is entirely justified. There is nothing morally wrong about rebelling against autocracy, in fact, it's quite a good thing.
It’s easy to encourage this when there’s nothing at stake. I personally have friends and family who are trapped and fear violent protestors as much as violent police.
And when the protests die down in a few days or weeks, there will be even fewer jobs. And the attacks aren’t against the state but against the people as well.
And when the protests die down in a few days or weeks, there will be even fewer jobs. And the attacks aren’t against the state but against the people as well.
Well obviously violence against random civilians is not justified, the target should be the state, especially leaders and security forces.
In most of these movements that discipline isn’t maintained. What do you think happens when thousands of students, many of whom are discovering a city the first time in their lives, suddenly realize they can set grand things on fire?
There’s certainly the core movement that is disciplined, but its very hard to control the beasts in the fringes.
There’s certainly the core movement that is disciplined, but its very hard to control the beasts in the fringes.
Your comment about students is absolutely unfair, and wrong.
The students are much more civilized than the goons and deployed police. The political wing of the party consists of uneducated street locals, or students who are not smart, and easy to manipulate, and looking for easy way to get to the top. I have worked with them, and I know their level.
And the students are the one who allows to go all the emergency vehicle peacefully. Never heard any students attacking an ambulance. Refer to safe roads movement by the students few years back.
Things go bad only when government goons gets involved. They are the beasts you are trying to make the students to be.
And link for you.
https://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/dhaka/352655/when-ja...
The students are much more civilized than the goons and deployed police. The political wing of the party consists of uneducated street locals, or students who are not smart, and easy to manipulate, and looking for easy way to get to the top. I have worked with them, and I know their level.
And the students are the one who allows to go all the emergency vehicle peacefully. Never heard any students attacking an ambulance. Refer to safe roads movement by the students few years back.
Things go bad only when government goons gets involved. They are the beasts you are trying to make the students to be.
And link for you.
https://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/dhaka/352655/when-ja...
Can confidently say, all the previous student protests, along with this one, students have never been the violent one.
But we civilians are more afraid of violence from the ruling party's goon. These people are coming from some remotest parts of the country, have no good education, but empowered by the government to do anything deemed necessary to stop people's movement.
But we civilians are more afraid of violence from the ruling party's goon. These people are coming from some remotest parts of the country, have no good education, but empowered by the government to do anything deemed necessary to stop people's movement.
Where is the line? Who people support and who a company supports all becomes relevant in a civil war.
Quite how this gets resolved is beyond me - the west has been quite happy to enjoy products from sweat shops, so is probably complicit.
Quite how this gets resolved is beyond me - the west has been quite happy to enjoy products from sweat shops, so is probably complicit.
It’s tanks vs sticks, the govt will prevail. In a few days we’ll all forget about this.
That said, I personally believe the future of the country lies in private enterprise - not govt jobs. People in BD want these govt jobs for job security. They need to rise above that fear.
I hope more will choose the path of entrepreneurship - whether by starting an AI company or a street-side teashop - there’s demand for both.
I’ve interacted with the software engineers at my friend’s company. The country has a lot of talented coders. I consider myself a veteran programmer - I’ve cracked all interviews thus far in the valley, but I get out-coded by these young chaps who’ve not had access to electricity till they were 15 (yes, there are still villages without power).
Truly inspiring stuff. Not if only we can all stop killing each other, the future will be bright :)
That said, I personally believe the future of the country lies in private enterprise - not govt jobs. People in BD want these govt jobs for job security. They need to rise above that fear.
I hope more will choose the path of entrepreneurship - whether by starting an AI company or a street-side teashop - there’s demand for both.
I’ve interacted with the software engineers at my friend’s company. The country has a lot of talented coders. I consider myself a veteran programmer - I’ve cracked all interviews thus far in the valley, but I get out-coded by these young chaps who’ve not had access to electricity till they were 15 (yes, there are still villages without power).
Truly inspiring stuff. Not if only we can all stop killing each other, the future will be bright :)
You are missing the point. It may look like protests are about having a fair shot at getting government jobs on the surface but it is more than that:
1. Corruption / Nepotism - Quotas in gov jobs are exploited by the powerful to hire people in important positions who will keep them in power.
2. Violence against Peaceful Protests - The protests started peacefully until the police + the govt backed student org (who work as hired goons for the ruling party and do the dirty job cops are unable to do) started violently suppressing them.
3. A Head of State who appears to be inconsiderate - The PM referred to the protesters with a term that is _extremely_ offensive. There is a track record of this Head of State using language that is unbecoming of their station, or simply unacceptable (think MAGA but 100x worse). Power keg exploded.
No matter how much talent or coding chops you have, you can't thrive in a society where the powerful are unchecked, unaccountable, and your right to protest peacefully are met with extreme violence. Try to see the world without the lense of SV.
1. Corruption / Nepotism - Quotas in gov jobs are exploited by the powerful to hire people in important positions who will keep them in power.
2. Violence against Peaceful Protests - The protests started peacefully until the police + the govt backed student org (who work as hired goons for the ruling party and do the dirty job cops are unable to do) started violently suppressing them.
3. A Head of State who appears to be inconsiderate - The PM referred to the protesters with a term that is _extremely_ offensive. There is a track record of this Head of State using language that is unbecoming of their station, or simply unacceptable (think MAGA but 100x worse). Power keg exploded.
No matter how much talent or coding chops you have, you can't thrive in a society where the powerful are unchecked, unaccountable, and your right to protest peacefully are met with extreme violence. Try to see the world without the lense of SV.
> Just to be clear, if that's the case, violence against the state is entirely justified. There is nothing morally wrong about rebelling against autocracy, in fact, it's quite a good thing.
Only if you have evidence against the state. Otherwise the state (which always has more resources) is going to take it to the next level.
Only if you have evidence against the state. Otherwise the state (which always has more resources) is going to take it to the next level.
Even if you have evidence against the state, do you think all those in power will just step down peacefully without a fight? No, they'll still send the military and law enforcement out to bash your skull in or arest you.
>A friend of mine who works in a startup in Bangladesh tells me that critical infrastructure is being set on fire indiscriminately. Buildings such as data centers. He shared videos of many such burning buildings.
Targeting critical infrastructure doesn't sound like purely "anarchistic" rioting to me. It sounds like something a foreign hostile power would want to happen.
It reminds me of what is happening in Ukraine at the moment, where critical infrastructure is being targeted to hurt the civilian population. But here, instead of rockets, we have goons who are paid to burn things down?
Targeting critical infrastructure doesn't sound like purely "anarchistic" rioting to me. It sounds like something a foreign hostile power would want to happen.
It reminds me of what is happening in Ukraine at the moment, where critical infrastructure is being targeted to hurt the civilian population. But here, instead of rockets, we have goons who are paid to burn things down?
Students didn't burn the buildings, nor any other hostile power. As the hostile power already have their puppet installed. Only building they might've burnt is the Government sponsored, tv office.
Its classic tactic employed by the government, many times over and over again. It's done by their student wing
And there are no opposition party left to do such attacks anymore, they've been systematically eradicated
Its classic tactic employed by the government, many times over and over again. It's done by their student wing
And there are no opposition party left to do such attacks anymore, they've been systematically eradicated
The protest WAS peaceful until one protester was killed by the Police for no reason.
Not sure how you are blaming the massive countrywide internet outage on the protesters. It was literally announced by the government that they were shutting everything down to control the movement.
Not sure how you are blaming the massive countrywide internet outage on the protesters. It was literally announced by the government that they were shutting everything down to control the movement.
I’m not blaming anyone for anything. I’m saying buildings were set on fire.
And yes we know that internet was shut by the government, but we had a day of burning overhead optical fiber that serves as the backbone for many peoples home internet connections.
My team of network engineers was brought in by some companies to try and reroute and stabilize the country’s infrastructure before the full shut down.
And when the internet is turned back on, there are the unlucky ones such as us who have to debug the remaining issues and asses the damage of a burnt central node that all ISPs connect through.
And yes we know that internet was shut by the government, but we had a day of burning overhead optical fiber that serves as the backbone for many peoples home internet connections.
My team of network engineers was brought in by some companies to try and reroute and stabilize the country’s infrastructure before the full shut down.
And when the internet is turned back on, there are the unlucky ones such as us who have to debug the remaining issues and asses the damage of a burnt central node that all ISPs connect through.
> The protest WAS peaceful until one protester was killed by the Police for no reason.
I'm inclined to believe it, but let's be honest: protesters always say that. From their point of view that's how it always is and they are never in the wrong. Statistically it's very unlikely.
I'm inclined to believe it, but let's be honest: protesters always say that. From their point of view that's how it always is and they are never in the wrong. Statistically it's very unlikely.
Keep in mind, in Bangladesh, no newspaper can say anything more than the government allows them to. And each newspaper reported the protest to be peaceful.
The students reacted when the pm threw a attacking comment toward them, and they were still peaceful in their reaction. Then then student wing of the party started attacking and things got violent
The students reacted when the pm threw a attacking comment toward them, and they were still peaceful in their reaction. Then then student wing of the party started attacking and things got violent
South Asia is a messy place. Governments do have a terrible human rights record but these governments are democratically elected and are clearly a representation of the general sentiment.
Ideally protests should be peaceful.
When there's no consequences for bad authoritarian behavior, you get more of it. Your plea for law and order is (probably inadvertently) a plea for the ongoing dominance of the established order. If it's peaceful only because everyone is afraid or unable to resist, then what you have is a police state. And in authoritarian societies like that, peaceful protest doesn't make any postive difference whatsoever, while often making things noticeably worse for the protesters.
Even in places like the US/UK, nonviolent protests attract violent repression and call by some people for even more violent repression. Simply passively standing against the established order is treated by some as a license to commit violence upon the protesters.
You are right about Bangladesh having a lack of capital and the costs of rebuilding, but you're basically arguing that capital matters more than the people in society. I'm sure you would never advocate just killing off/stripping the rights of some % of the population to increase the average wealth, but that's exactly what authoritarian regimes do in practice. There's always a favored in-group (sometimes described as a 'selectorate', imbued with sufficient political power to prop up the incumbent regime in exchange for policy rewards) and a disfavored out-group (the wrong ethnicity, or the wrong idea-havers, or the wrong socioeconomic class) that gets saddled with the costs. The recipe for successful authoritarians is to strip wealth from the out-group(s) fast enough to keep the in-group happy but not so fast that the out-groups decide they have nothing to lose or that their loss rate is unacceptable, causing them to react violently against the authority structure and/or the in-group that benefits from it.
Capitalistic abundance through the satisfaction of demands by enterprise and markets is a nice idea, but it is in no way guaranteed. Very often the beneficial goods and services come with negative externalities (pollution, waste, second-order effects) that do not fall on the consumer beneficiaries. Capitalists and industrialists (who are often but not always the same) frequently avoid accounting for these; where they do acknowledge the problems, they promote changing consumer behavior to mitigate the problem, recycling being the most obvious example. Sometimes this is effective, often not. The problem is that you don't have to generate positive externalities to succeed in a capitalist system; you can have a zero- or even negative-sum strategy and still win in many situations, as long as you are good at divide-and-conquer and frustrating attempts by your detractors to coordinate against you politically/economically. This is why corporations spend so much money on lobbying lawmakers and regulators, and also why branding is such a huge industry, differentiating products as much as possible while downplaying the identity of producers to minimize the appearance of oligopoly.
When there's no consequences for bad authoritarian behavior, you get more of it. Your plea for law and order is (probably inadvertently) a plea for the ongoing dominance of the established order. If it's peaceful only because everyone is afraid or unable to resist, then what you have is a police state. And in authoritarian societies like that, peaceful protest doesn't make any postive difference whatsoever, while often making things noticeably worse for the protesters.
Even in places like the US/UK, nonviolent protests attract violent repression and call by some people for even more violent repression. Simply passively standing against the established order is treated by some as a license to commit violence upon the protesters.
You are right about Bangladesh having a lack of capital and the costs of rebuilding, but you're basically arguing that capital matters more than the people in society. I'm sure you would never advocate just killing off/stripping the rights of some % of the population to increase the average wealth, but that's exactly what authoritarian regimes do in practice. There's always a favored in-group (sometimes described as a 'selectorate', imbued with sufficient political power to prop up the incumbent regime in exchange for policy rewards) and a disfavored out-group (the wrong ethnicity, or the wrong idea-havers, or the wrong socioeconomic class) that gets saddled with the costs. The recipe for successful authoritarians is to strip wealth from the out-group(s) fast enough to keep the in-group happy but not so fast that the out-groups decide they have nothing to lose or that their loss rate is unacceptable, causing them to react violently against the authority structure and/or the in-group that benefits from it.
Capitalistic abundance through the satisfaction of demands by enterprise and markets is a nice idea, but it is in no way guaranteed. Very often the beneficial goods and services come with negative externalities (pollution, waste, second-order effects) that do not fall on the consumer beneficiaries. Capitalists and industrialists (who are often but not always the same) frequently avoid accounting for these; where they do acknowledge the problems, they promote changing consumer behavior to mitigate the problem, recycling being the most obvious example. Sometimes this is effective, often not. The problem is that you don't have to generate positive externalities to succeed in a capitalist system; you can have a zero- or even negative-sum strategy and still win in many situations, as long as you are good at divide-and-conquer and frustrating attempts by your detractors to coordinate against you politically/economically. This is why corporations spend so much money on lobbying lawmakers and regulators, and also why branding is such a huge industry, differentiating products as much as possible while downplaying the identity of producers to minimize the appearance of oligopoly.
Both sides of the political spectrum are authoritarian. Each dominant party will do whatever in their power to hold onto it.
That said, law and order is needed to sustain the population. The pop density of BD is incredible - imagine half the population of US crammed into the state of New York. Systems and processes were what BD out of being considered a “basket case “ as Henry Kissinger (?) once famously called it. A lot of it were built by NGOs and private parties.
Now you have these students who are protesting something valid. But they are also not mature enough to realize that if they start burning away the optical fibers and data centers, they’re destroying the systems they are using to self-organize.
And what happens once they topple the govt? Who runs their nuclear reactor and power stations? Who runs their comms?
Let’s not throw away the baby with the bathwater and try and find a more reasonable way.
That said, law and order is needed to sustain the population. The pop density of BD is incredible - imagine half the population of US crammed into the state of New York. Systems and processes were what BD out of being considered a “basket case “ as Henry Kissinger (?) once famously called it. A lot of it were built by NGOs and private parties.
Now you have these students who are protesting something valid. But they are also not mature enough to realize that if they start burning away the optical fibers and data centers, they’re destroying the systems they are using to self-organize.
And what happens once they topple the govt? Who runs their nuclear reactor and power stations? Who runs their comms?
Let’s not throw away the baby with the bathwater and try and find a more reasonable way.
You can equally argue the government is not mature enough to recognize the validity of their protest and is violently oppressing them, leading to predictable further violence. If the government are so well-informed and wise in the ways of the world, why are they engaged on such a self-destructive course?
Seeing the pictures of so called burnt "data center", I would say it was definitely not the students. But hey, it's their (government 's) game, and they can twist it around as they like.
And people were never afraid of the students, nor the students were destroying infrastructure.
People were helping the students. [0]
Targeting unarmed people with shotguns, is in no way justifiable, no matter how you want to sugarcoat it. Simply put you can plate and serve shit in a very classy manner, but at the end it will still remain shit.
[0]. https://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/dhaka/352655/when-ja...
And people were never afraid of the students, nor the students were destroying infrastructure.
People were helping the students. [0]
Targeting unarmed people with shotguns, is in no way justifiable, no matter how you want to sugarcoat it. Simply put you can plate and serve shit in a very classy manner, but at the end it will still remain shit.
[0]. https://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/dhaka/352655/when-ja...
Rather than an outage, this is a national internet kill switch being used to deny the population access to information and the ability to organize.
Because the supreme court reinstated a law that reserves a whopping 30% of all government jobs to only people with family members who fought in a war 50 years ago. As anyone could have trivially predicted, that doesn't sit well with the entire generation that's currently in school and hoping to actually, you know, get a job in the next few years.
Because the supreme court reinstated a law that reserves a whopping 30% of all government jobs to only people with family members who fought in a war 50 years ago. As anyone could have trivially predicted, that doesn't sit well with the entire generation that's currently in school and hoping to actually, you know, get a job in the next few years.
News from yesterday
Related article for some context: https://www.engadget.com/bangladesh-is-experiencing-a-near-t...
(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41001370)
Related article for some context: https://www.engadget.com/bangladesh-is-experiencing-a-near-t...
(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41001370)
I wish the protestors all the best. Sad that this kind of situation is happening.
Is meshnet technology currently feasible/cheap enough that it could be used to work around an internet shutdown in a country with very high population density like Bangladesh?
Mesh doesn’t have the bandwidth. You would be sending a whole country over a wireless link. Multiple wireless links. Even with some special point to point links, you can’t beat fiber.
The other problem would be how to do the routing. The world sends the IP addresses to routers which are disconnected. Network is centralized so all the packets from country go to the router. Would have to VPN, which the whole country would have to install.
The other problem would be how to do the routing. The world sends the IP addresses to routers which are disconnected. Network is centralized so all the packets from country go to the router. Would have to VPN, which the whole country would have to install.
You would need to educate the masses first on how to use this stuff. And you end up sort of carrying an active beacon around. Which probably isn't a great strategy if you want to hide in plain sight of people empowered to just shoot you on sight.
Most phones don't have a huge range in any case. So, covering a wide area with a mesh network would be very vulnerable against repression. Just take out all the nodes that you can detect. If your phone picks them up, the suspect is within line of sight probably.
Technology has very few answers to repressive regimes like this. Mostly people get afraid and refrain from using the things that might get them in jail and self police. That also breeds trust issues. The DDR regime ultimately got children to rat out their relatives. Modern repressive regimes are learning from each other as well when it comes to identifying and neutralizing pockets of resistance. The Bangladesh playbook was perfected by the Chinese, Iran, Myanmar, etc.
Usually those regimes only end when people get hungry and angry enough. As long as you keep the economy going, regimes can last a long time. And of course North Korea perfected the art of repressing a starving nation. So even that is not a show stopper.
We're not at zero risk of regressing into living under oppressive regimes like that. I live in Germany where the scars of communism and fascism are still very visible. It only takes some rogue fools to win an election to roll back the clock a century.
Most phones don't have a huge range in any case. So, covering a wide area with a mesh network would be very vulnerable against repression. Just take out all the nodes that you can detect. If your phone picks them up, the suspect is within line of sight probably.
Technology has very few answers to repressive regimes like this. Mostly people get afraid and refrain from using the things that might get them in jail and self police. That also breeds trust issues. The DDR regime ultimately got children to rat out their relatives. Modern repressive regimes are learning from each other as well when it comes to identifying and neutralizing pockets of resistance. The Bangladesh playbook was perfected by the Chinese, Iran, Myanmar, etc.
Usually those regimes only end when people get hungry and angry enough. As long as you keep the economy going, regimes can last a long time. And of course North Korea perfected the art of repressing a starving nation. So even that is not a show stopper.
We're not at zero risk of regressing into living under oppressive regimes like that. I live in Germany where the scars of communism and fascism are still very visible. It only takes some rogue fools to win an election to roll back the clock a century.
I am here to give context, in as much unbiased way as I can.
Bangladesh started its journey as East Pakistan in 1947 after breaking away from India. Pakistan's political upper echelon were dominated by Urdu-speaking West Pakistanis. And it siphoned all resources and wealth of East Pakistan to West, and treated it as its colony. Bangladesh, or EP was more populous and more resources-rich. But it suffered under WP. Now, after a massive cyclone and loss of thousands of lives with millions homeless and uprooted, WP rulers did not come to aid. And, in an unrelated way, a Bengali politician was to be elected Prime Minister for whole of Pakistan. But WP elites didn't want that. In this time, WP rulers wanted to eradicate Bengali, the mother tongue of EP, the more populous fraction of population and impose Urdu. Bangladeshi people revolted taking the issues of election, cyclone, and language simultaneously. Protests started peacefully.
But WP rulers used military for genocide and massacre. Tens of thousands of women were gangraped, raped and killed. Hundreds of thousands of men were killed and tortured- many students and intellectuals. Hindus were the main target, but they didn’t spare Bengali Muslims either.
So, a war of independence ensued, and rebels become victorious. India engaged in a war with Pakistan and won that war, too.
Now, there was a small but non trivial part population of EP supported the WP rulers in name of radical religion. They and their descendants are in current BD population, too. They are in political-religious org Jamat-e-Islami. Supported and allied by BNP.
So, Sheikh Hasina, the current PM, was actually popular and won elections fairly in the beginning. But, she wouldn’t concede fair seats to opponents who were often pro-Pakistan but not always. In the name of national integrity and safety.
In tandem, the ruling party became corrupt to the core, and its loyalists and cronies made bank in corruption.
There is always consensus against the ruling party and the PM. And what began as a anti-quota protest, now has become a anti-establishment movement.
The people protesting now are mostly normal people. But a significant portion are pro-Pakistan radical Islamist fundamentalist.
But the rulers want to paint all of them as being pro-Pak, fundamentalists. This is how dissent was handled for the last 15 years.
I have many friends in Bangladesh or who lived there. Now, ruler party's central policies are pro-minority. But, local partymen do perpetrate against minority. So, they have slowly become what they fought.
Bangladesh started its journey as East Pakistan in 1947 after breaking away from India. Pakistan's political upper echelon were dominated by Urdu-speaking West Pakistanis. And it siphoned all resources and wealth of East Pakistan to West, and treated it as its colony. Bangladesh, or EP was more populous and more resources-rich. But it suffered under WP. Now, after a massive cyclone and loss of thousands of lives with millions homeless and uprooted, WP rulers did not come to aid. And, in an unrelated way, a Bengali politician was to be elected Prime Minister for whole of Pakistan. But WP elites didn't want that. In this time, WP rulers wanted to eradicate Bengali, the mother tongue of EP, the more populous fraction of population and impose Urdu. Bangladeshi people revolted taking the issues of election, cyclone, and language simultaneously. Protests started peacefully.
But WP rulers used military for genocide and massacre. Tens of thousands of women were gangraped, raped and killed. Hundreds of thousands of men were killed and tortured- many students and intellectuals. Hindus were the main target, but they didn’t spare Bengali Muslims either.
So, a war of independence ensued, and rebels become victorious. India engaged in a war with Pakistan and won that war, too.
Now, there was a small but non trivial part population of EP supported the WP rulers in name of radical religion. They and their descendants are in current BD population, too. They are in political-religious org Jamat-e-Islami. Supported and allied by BNP.
So, Sheikh Hasina, the current PM, was actually popular and won elections fairly in the beginning. But, she wouldn’t concede fair seats to opponents who were often pro-Pakistan but not always. In the name of national integrity and safety.
In tandem, the ruling party became corrupt to the core, and its loyalists and cronies made bank in corruption.
There is always consensus against the ruling party and the PM. And what began as a anti-quota protest, now has become a anti-establishment movement.
The people protesting now are mostly normal people. But a significant portion are pro-Pakistan radical Islamist fundamentalist.
But the rulers want to paint all of them as being pro-Pak, fundamentalists. This is how dissent was handled for the last 15 years.
I have many friends in Bangladesh or who lived there. Now, ruler party's central policies are pro-minority. But, local partymen do perpetrate against minority. So, they have slowly become what they fought.
Given the prevalence of this sort of thing in authoritarian countries, it's disappointing that mesh networking apps like Briar and Firechat are not more well-resourced/ developed/ promoted. Popular messaging platforms like Signal, WeChat, and Telegram offer a blend of convenience and security (different apps having different priorities, eg Telegram prioritizes the former over the latter), but they're all vulnerable to internet shutdowns, which instantly dissolves any online community trying to coordinate.
Mesh networks are generally slower and less reliable for large-scale data transfer as well as less secure by virtue of their distributed nature, but are more resilient in the event that natural/ social disasters take down communications infrastructure. Even janky analog radios work better.
Mesh networks are generally slower and less reliable for large-scale data transfer as well as less secure by virtue of their distributed nature, but are more resilient in the event that natural/ social disasters take down communications infrastructure. Even janky analog radios work better.
looking at https://outage.ant.isi.edu/ it seems Europe is having a bad day too
In https://outage.ant.isi.edu, one should look at the circle colors, not just sizes. Circle colors indicate the fraction of networks (technically: /24 IPv4 newtork prefixes) that are down, and in Bangladesh, the hard red means nearly 100% are unreachable.
While Europe has many circles and therefore some networks are down, because they are blue that means it's only a few that are unreachable. Europe has many, many networks.
While Europe has many circles and therefore some networks are down, because they are blue that means it's only a few that are unreachable. Europe has many, many networks.
What's the explanation for what's going on in Europe though? Is that the regular state of their network?
[dupe]
Some more discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41007396
Some more discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41007396
Warning: recursion
I lived in BGD back in the 70’s, and the same two alternating dynasties still seem to have a hold on the country. Very sad.
Maybe they just had Crowdstrike installed at some of their Internet exchange control machines? :-\
[deleted]
If this can happen, can you imagine if the Internet was centralized?
We’ve got three operating systems, three giant cloud providers, and a near monoculture of browser engines. It’s not great, even if it could be worse.
Internet is quasi centralized already. An outage or intentional disruption by a couple of companies under US Jurisdiction can disrupt global internet. Yes you would still have some clustered connections here or there but most of internet infrastructure is almost centralized already.
Telecom providers of various kinds are responsive to governments so I'm not sure that it "isn't" centralized as far as the ability for bad people to do these things goes.
It is really odd to me that Bangladesh even exists as a nation, and that it is an officially Islamic nation. This country was formed as a result of the partition of India, where the British empire left a mess on their way out by subdividing India into what is now Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. But really these countries should be recombined into India - their status as religious ethnostates is unacceptable in the modern world and given that Islam came to the region through brutal genocidal invasions by Arabs in the Middle East, it seems strange to give those colonizing invaders their own land and ethnostate. Pakistan and Bangladesh have also been messy throughout their existence, and continually on the brink - as current conditions show.
I doubt that most Indians would want to be "recombined" with Pakistan and Bangladesh. What's in it for them?
[deleted]
I assume claiming back their ancestral land lost to colonizers, much like what native Americans would desire.
Mostly under the (non-)guidance of one Earl Mountbatten of Burma, the one described as "every inch the King".
https://read.dukeupress.edu/cssaame/article/25/1/89/151/Gene...
https://read.dukeupress.edu/cssaame/article/25/1/89/151/Gene...
I am not very familiar with the backstory here. Are you saying one person pushed for this? I assumed it was a purposeful strategy of the crown, for a departing colonizer (Britain) to weaken a former vassal state that might otherwise seek revenge for hundreds of years of colonial rule.
He didn't push for this, but he was tasked to see Partition through, and he bungled the job, hence "non- guidance". Maybe no fault of his, but you can get a deeper nuance of the larger issues at play by thinking about how he personally could have otherwise done an okay job. Taking the maxim to not assume malice to its pedantic conclusion. Plus, it's easier to think about a constrained space of individual actions and intentions even if the wider politics are so complex.
At that moment in time, Mountbatten was perhaps the personification of the Crown (and he would have known it)
At that moment in time, Mountbatten was perhaps the personification of the Crown (and he would have known it)
thoughts and prayers to those caught up in this and i hope for a peaceful resolution.
this should ring alarm bells for the other south asian neighbours who shared similar colonialism past.
socialist policies for the marginalized several decades ago seems to always bite back when leaders don't bring out more opportunities and instead play with the politics of handing out favourable access.
if some of these countries dream to call themselves developed in the future, they need to introspect whether you would need quotas and reservations after achieving it.
this should ring alarm bells for the other south asian neighbours who shared similar colonialism past.
socialist policies for the marginalized several decades ago seems to always bite back when leaders don't bring out more opportunities and instead play with the politics of handing out favourable access.
if some of these countries dream to call themselves developed in the future, they need to introspect whether you would need quotas and reservations after achieving it.
"Bangladesh imposes a near total internet shutdown to stifle coverage and online engagement with police killings at student protest"
Calling things what they are instead of tortuously passive and neutral descriptions should be standard. The headline sounds like it's describing two separate things that just coincidentally happen to be occurring at the same time.
Calling things what they are instead of tortuously passive and neutral descriptions should be standard. The headline sounds like it's describing two separate things that just coincidentally happen to be occurring at the same time.
Headlines are usually written like this to avoid libel suits. Even if you have a defensible case it’s quite expensive to go through the motions of a lawsuit.
Bangladesh is going to sue US journalists in a US court for accurate headlines?
I'd love libel suits from hostile authoritarian regimes, personally. For a journalism organization, that would seem to be a badge of honor.
Something is deeply wrong if you have to essentially lie on behalf of the bad guys or risk significant financial penalties.
I'd love libel suits from hostile authoritarian regimes, personally. For a journalism organization, that would seem to be a badge of honor.
Something is deeply wrong if you have to essentially lie on behalf of the bad guys or risk significant financial penalties.
Not the US, but this actively happens pretty frequently in the UK, which is often just as financially damaging. https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-libel-privacy-law-defamat...
[deleted]
[deleted]
xyst(8)
Is this how an Ai take over or state sponsored cyber attack would look like?
It is a state sponsored cyber attack. It doesn't just look like one
The war happened in 1971. To get public job and avail the quota, it must be their 3rd or 4th generation now. Which is plain unfair.
But it’s not about that, the gov loyalists and their goons fake these veteran certificates to land these jobs. Bangladesh is one of the most corrupted countries in the world after all. So real veteran relatives are seldom the beneficiary.
These students just wanted to reform this system. But our fascist gov and their goons used force and killed 50+ unarmed students until yesterday (3 from my alma mater alone.) This was completely unprovoked and unnecessary. Basically any forms of dissent have been dealt with this way since 2009. No one can criticize or protest the big brother.
We have a dictatorship since 2009. People are angry - due to corruption, inflation, joblessness and tyranny. This is just some outburst of it.
When you see the videos how the police are killing teenagers and university students in the road - our future generation - no one can tolerate this.
Now the fascist gov has closed all internet and phone connection to outside world. I can't contact my family anymore. I don't know their well being.
There is of course more to it. But this is the summary.