Klein Bottle Amazon Brand Hijacking (2021)(kleinbottle.com)
kleinbottle.com
Klein Bottle Amazon Brand Hijacking (2021)
https://www.kleinbottle.com/Amazon_Brand_Hijacking.html
294 comments
Walmart.com is a rebranded Jet.com. They've only owned it for 9 years.
And they have the same problems because they allow third party sellers. So far, Target seems it hasn't gone done this rode yet.
As long as they don't commingle inventory it's relatively easy to avoid (not sure if that's the case or not, but seems like most of the 3rd party sellers do their own shipping)
FWIW my main annoyance with Walmarts website is that it's not clear if you package is coming via shipping service like FedEx, who has access to my apartment complex, or just some dude in his car who needs to call me while I'm at work to be buzzed in
FWIW my main annoyance with Walmarts website is that it's not clear if you package is coming via shipping service like FedEx, who has access to my apartment complex, or just some dude in his car who needs to call me while I'm at work to be buzzed in
Walmart is Walmart. They hire the cheapest people possible and treat them like shit.
I get stuff from Walmart all of the time from their delivery drivers. The catch: I’ve never ordered anything from Walmart.
I get stuff from Walmart all of the time from their delivery drivers. The catch: I’ve never ordered anything from Walmart.
Target does allow third-party sellers on Target.com (and the app), but they allow in-store returns on anything — even third-party items. When I worked as a receiver, there were random items to process out that would normally/likely be salvage, but went to the returns processing center because they were from online orders. There also seems to be curation.
It’s surprising they’re not trying to take Amazon market share by eliminating scammy third party vendors and counterfeit products. I think people would be interested in an Amazon like service without the dropshipped and fake junk.
In many ways it's actually worse.
I don't remember the item now, but something I'd bought semi regularly from Walmart. It was boosted in my search/you may like results, which makes sense. Except the product was 10x the price, and not sold by Walmart. There's no clear indication of that until you actually click into it, though. So you can add it to your cart and buy it easily without knowing any of that, by design I guess.
It seems 3rd party sellers know how it works, and probably make a ton of money sniping out of stock items. I almost fell for it as I rarely scrutinize prices, I can't imagine how many people go through with it not knowing any better.
I don't remember the item now, but something I'd bought semi regularly from Walmart. It was boosted in my search/you may like results, which makes sense. Except the product was 10x the price, and not sold by Walmart. There's no clear indication of that until you actually click into it, though. So you can add it to your cart and buy it easily without knowing any of that, by design I guess.
It seems 3rd party sellers know how it works, and probably make a ton of money sniping out of stock items. I almost fell for it as I rarely scrutinize prices, I can't imagine how many people go through with it not knowing any better.
You can filter searches so you only see stuff sold and shipped by Walmart but it does seem that the filters reset frequently/randomly so you always need to double check.
Most of my use is actually local pickup or delivery, so I often use the 'In Store' filter often. It lasts only as long as that session, unfortunately.
It's not surprising at all. Keep in mind that Walmart is a multi-billion dollar business, so its certain they did an analysis on this.
Convenience > Quality as dictated by the Median Consumer.
Convenience > Quality as dictated by the Median Consumer.
They did the exact opposite and immediately copied the marketplace schema.
I would barely trust Amazon for authentic shampoo never mind vitamins. Are people so desperate to save single dollars they gamble with their health?
It's not about being cheaper, it's about convenience. And realistically what's the more trustworthy alternative? Even the reputable high street shops sell homeopathy and bags of random herbs that might be the thing on the label, never mind picking a no-name online store.
I think part of the problem is also that how prevalent it is varies wildly by where you are, and therefore which Amazon distribution centers you're hitting.
To elaborate - in NYC, I usually avoid ordering from Amazon for anything where it's cheap or something health-related, but even when I've sometimes given up finding it easily elsewhere and bought it there, it's not been, as far as I could tell, a counterfeit item.
That's not to say I can easily prove that or that I'm encouraging people to order from there, but I personally haven't encountered boxes full of things other than the intended item, or the like, and I would suspect the problem's prevalence varies heavily with volume (and thus, turnover) and location.
To elaborate - in NYC, I usually avoid ordering from Amazon for anything where it's cheap or something health-related, but even when I've sometimes given up finding it easily elsewhere and bought it there, it's not been, as far as I could tell, a counterfeit item.
That's not to say I can easily prove that or that I'm encouraging people to order from there, but I personally haven't encountered boxes full of things other than the intended item, or the like, and I would suspect the problem's prevalence varies heavily with volume (and thus, turnover) and location.
The issue w AMZ is the sku mixing. Two or more different batches of stuff get mixed. A lot of the bad stuff are rejects or seconds that get the same packaging, so w Amz it is always a small chance.
Even without the mixing Amazon will occasionally have a "fire sale" on things sold by themselves or 3rd party stores and every time this happens the recent reviews are that the product was expired, or used, or damaged, etc. Even for products where returns aren't accepted which just adds insult to injury. So it's just dumping of worthless stock. For example this seems to be the case with air friers (only because I had my eye on this) every Prime Day, they all get flooded with dozens of reviews that the product was damaged or used.
I don't trust Amazon offers because of this. So I either just buy the super cheap, disposable stuff where a trip to a shop isn't worth it, or things that have guaranteed free returns. Sometimes I'd rather order online because I have a guaranteed window to test and return if it's not what I want. For purchases in person the law here doesn't guarantee a return window for products that work but just aren't what I thought they'd be. Or I have to argue endlessly at the store for them to take it back.
I don't trust Amazon offers because of this. So I either just buy the super cheap, disposable stuff where a trip to a shop isn't worth it, or things that have guaranteed free returns. Sometimes I'd rather order online because I have a guaranteed window to test and return if it's not what I want. For purchases in person the law here doesn't guarantee a return window for products that work but just aren't what I thought they'd be. Or I have to argue endlessly at the store for them to take it back.
In mass market stuff… Target. They sell stuff sourced through normal distributor channels and have a good shipping and pickup operation. Pricing is competitive.
Supplements are a scam industry, so you’re always going to have issues there, that’s a feature of the business.
Supplements are a scam industry, so you’re always going to have issues there, that’s a feature of the business.
Target has the distasteful feature that in-store prices differ from online prices. So if you go and browse you pay more than you would by ordering online and driving to the same store and picking it up. Maybe you could argue for the online price?
You can price match the website
Or you can just click purchase on Amazon and get the same product with less hassle.
Are you sure you have the right store selected? I like to get the aisle numbers and see if something is even in stock on the website before I go and I've never had a price mismatch.
Walmart's pricing is also accurate but their stock indicator isn't as good as target's.
Walmart's pricing is also accurate but their stock indicator isn't as good as target's.
100% Americans are complicit in making amazon the beheomoth they are. Convenience above all else. Ive shopped online for 20 years and never purchesed from Amazon. There are very few things that cant be bought form other e-vendors. Its just that they wont turn up next day.
Amazon perpetuates the stealing of IP to the point that they are the global leader. They use their market power to steal anything that makes money. Whether its directly, or indirectly as above.
Amazon perpetuates the stealing of IP to the point that they are the global leader. They use their market power to steal anything that makes money. Whether its directly, or indirectly as above.
Amazon isn't just successful in the US. Plenty other countries where the local stores simply refuse to compete on customer satisfaction too.
> And realistically what's the more trustworthy alternative?
This hints at a deeper problem; the fact that you can't trust e.g. the government to have an organization that tests and certifies anything sold, be it online or in shops. You should be able to trust things like vitamins when bought online.
Of course, if Amazon would only sell legit stuff, people would order stuff from abroad because like it or not, the general trend remains that people try to get the cheapest products. This is why legitimate products are pushed out of the market. This is why Amazon and Walmart pushed out local shops. Free rein capitalism.
This hints at a deeper problem; the fact that you can't trust e.g. the government to have an organization that tests and certifies anything sold, be it online or in shops. You should be able to trust things like vitamins when bought online.
Of course, if Amazon would only sell legit stuff, people would order stuff from abroad because like it or not, the general trend remains that people try to get the cheapest products. This is why legitimate products are pushed out of the market. This is why Amazon and Walmart pushed out local shops. Free rein capitalism.
> the fact that you can't trust e.g. the government to have an organization that tests and certifies anything sold, be it online or in shops
In the US, for things like supplements and vitamins, the regulations are extremely lax. There isn't really any enforcement of the labels being accurate. There isn't really enforcement until people are already being injured in the market.
The only way to actually know what's in that vitamin pill is for you to send it to a lab you trust. The next step down from there is only buy reputable brands from reputable stores but even then, it can be a crapshoot. With RFK at the helm, expect this to get worse and not better.
Gotta love Mel Gibson's fear mongering political ad about vitamins to really show how absurd the messaging was in '94.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6bv92W4YnE
In the US, for things like supplements and vitamins, the regulations are extremely lax. There isn't really any enforcement of the labels being accurate. There isn't really enforcement until people are already being injured in the market.
The only way to actually know what's in that vitamin pill is for you to send it to a lab you trust. The next step down from there is only buy reputable brands from reputable stores but even then, it can be a crapshoot. With RFK at the helm, expect this to get worse and not better.
Gotta love Mel Gibson's fear mongering political ad about vitamins to really show how absurd the messaging was in '94.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6bv92W4YnE
The problem is also that when there is government regulation it is often more about restricting sale without prescription or similar bs rather than just enforcing that you get what it says on the label and there is no other attempt to deceive you.
Costco, thorne, etc
Aren’t vitamins a crapshoot anywhere? I thought there was basically no regulations on any of it.
Lately Wal-Mart has been going head-to-head with AMZN on its own turf. They've got their own version of Amazon Prime, and many of the same third party sellers of the same questionable supplements and other things. Next day shipping seems to operate pretty much the same between the two as well.
It’s the next day shopping. If you have something fairly unimportant, you can get it from Amazon next day regardless of your schedule. But yes. Buy local if possible!
It's not just that. I use a fairly obscure dietary supplement. It's a crap shoot whether or not my local pharmacy has it in stock on any given day, and the only way to find out is to physically go there. If I factor in the cost of my time, buying local is orders of magnitude more expensive than Amazon, where I can place an order in under a minute.
I am astonished that brick-and-mortar merchants haven't banded together to get someone to build a decent e-commerce front end for their local stock. That would be a killer app.
I am astonished that brick-and-mortar merchants haven't banded together to get someone to build a decent e-commerce front end for their local stock. That would be a killer app.
"obscure dietary supplement. " What is it?
Lutein. Why?
Just curious. https://purebulk.com/ does not carry it.
Why do you take it if I may ask?
I disagree. Delivery time is rarely ever a consideration for me. Convenience, large selection and the knowledge that I will be made whole in case issues arise without have to expend significant effort are the main reasons.
Try Target.com
AMZN is my last choice for buying anything. An attempt to buy this stuff
https://www.amazon.com/stores/RIVALZ/page/5690A202-6DDB-42BA...
because my wife found one flavor, slightly expired, at the Amish market and liked it fell through when I tried to buy it straight from the vendor because they charged my credit card with a scammy-looking name neither I nor American Express had ever heard of. Can't get it at Walmart.com, so... (For that matter, Walmart had the first five books of Bocchi the Rock and #7 but not #6)
Ever since the time I saw a product listing though which made no sense at all and reported it and got a reply that they don't care if I didn't buy it I started losing trust. Didn't help that 2 day delivery became 5 days suddenly and the fact that I live in a rural area is no excuse because I used to see an AMZN delivery truck driving around in my neighborhood every Sunday. After I quit Prime they started giving me free trials or a week for $2 whenever I bought something and... now I get the 2 day delivery everyone else gets.
https://www.amazon.com/stores/RIVALZ/page/5690A202-6DDB-42BA...
because my wife found one flavor, slightly expired, at the Amish market and liked it fell through when I tried to buy it straight from the vendor because they charged my credit card with a scammy-looking name neither I nor American Express had ever heard of. Can't get it at Walmart.com, so... (For that matter, Walmart had the first five books of Bocchi the Rock and #7 but not #6)
Ever since the time I saw a product listing though which made no sense at all and reported it and got a reply that they don't care if I didn't buy it I started losing trust. Didn't help that 2 day delivery became 5 days suddenly and the fact that I live in a rural area is no excuse because I used to see an AMZN delivery truck driving around in my neighborhood every Sunday. After I quit Prime they started giving me free trials or a week for $2 whenever I bought something and... now I get the 2 day delivery everyone else gets.
> Walmart had the first five books of Bocchi the Rock and #7 but not #6
Wonder if it's similar to what this comment mentions about Amazon (even down to the example being 5 and 7 but no 6): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44354938 Maybe Walmart is trying to match Amazon's stock to avoid spending too much to compete with them.
Wonder if it's similar to what this comment mentions about Amazon (even down to the example being 5 and 7 but no 6): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44354938 Maybe Walmart is trying to match Amazon's stock to avoid spending too much to compete with them.
There was that time I needed three digits from my mailbox and K-Mart had the 4, the 7 but not the 2 so I didn't buy any of them.
Amazon feels a lot more customer-centric than other retailers. It's a perennial complaint of mine that we still get frickin' cold days in April in upstate NY but all the home improvement and rural things retailers in my town are based in the deep South so they just can't get it that you might need a space heater or your chickens might die but Amazon does. (Well, there was a day that the rest of the country complained everything was run out of New York...)
Amazon feels a lot more customer-centric than other retailers. It's a perennial complaint of mine that we still get frickin' cold days in April in upstate NY but all the home improvement and rural things retailers in my town are based in the deep South so they just can't get it that you might need a space heater or your chickens might die but Amazon does. (Well, there was a day that the rest of the country complained everything was run out of New York...)
Check out the recalls from https://www.cpsc.gov/
Amazon lists thousands of junk products from China that violate US laws around product safety. Toys containing lead paint, crib bumpers that can suffocate babies, etc. The process seems to be that Amazon just needs to remove the product in violation but it really appears that this is a wholesale attempt on Amazon's part to circumvent legislation. It should not be this trivial for consumers to find products that are potentially dangerous.
Amazon lists thousands of junk products from China that violate US laws around product safety. Toys containing lead paint, crib bumpers that can suffocate babies, etc. The process seems to be that Amazon just needs to remove the product in violation but it really appears that this is a wholesale attempt on Amazon's part to circumvent legislation. It should not be this trivial for consumers to find products that are potentially dangerous.
That's because Amazon is, in large part, a front end over Alibaba with exactly zero enforcement of regulation. But they do manage to charge way more!
Indeed! Amazon, it seems, is just a hyperscale fulfillment plugin for Alibaba (etc). It's like a CDN layer for physical goods, moving them to the edge and delivering them at a speed few can even dream of touching due to the cost of having that many POPs.
I think if you were to ask them, being a "Marketplace" means they have little responsibility. "Retailers" have much more legal responsibility in terms of vetting manufacturers, supply chain concerns, product safety, etc
I'm especially annoyed at the electrical equipment category. 20 years ago it would be hard to find even a power strip or AC adapter for sale in America that wasn't UL listed. Even dollar store merchandise usually had the label.
Today, you can only buy two kinds of such products: The (I assume Alibaba-sourced) Amazon Marketplace, fulfilled by Amazon items which are never UL listed, and brand-name items from a brick and mortar store, which cost 8x the price of the equivalent 'Amazon special.'
I know "UL" is just a label and that not having it doesn't necessarily prove anything, but absent any form of certification, an device on Amazon Marketplace may come from a vendor that has literally never even submitted a sample for quality testing to anyone. BigClive on YouTube has shown some shocking (literally) teardowns.
I've heard that insurance companies will deny a claim if your house burns down due to a non-UL-listed device causing a fire. Terrifying.
Today, you can only buy two kinds of such products: The (I assume Alibaba-sourced) Amazon Marketplace, fulfilled by Amazon items which are never UL listed, and brand-name items from a brick and mortar store, which cost 8x the price of the equivalent 'Amazon special.'
I know "UL" is just a label and that not having it doesn't necessarily prove anything, but absent any form of certification, an device on Amazon Marketplace may come from a vendor that has literally never even submitted a sample for quality testing to anyone. BigClive on YouTube has shown some shocking (literally) teardowns.
I've heard that insurance companies will deny a claim if your house burns down due to a non-UL-listed device causing a fire. Terrifying.
"UL" is not just a label, it's one of the biggest nongovernmental product safety testing organization. I don't know where it stands relative to consumer reports.
> insurance companies
UL stands for underwriter's (aka insurers) laboratories
> insurance companies
UL stands for underwriter's (aka insurers) laboratories
I don't think they mean "just a label" as in "not worth caring about", they just meant that the label is an indicator of quality, not the cause of quality, and as such products without the label aren't automatically bad products, they just have less evidence about their quality.
For that point, yes it is "just a label", even though the context behind the label / the label's meaning is very important.
For that point, yes it is "just a label", even though the context behind the label / the label's meaning is very important.
ok, that makes sense.
While technically true. Companies are in the business of maximizing profits and they will cut corners if they can get away with it. A company interested in selling on the quality end of the spectrum will get the UL certification. A company interested in selling at the cheep end of the spectrum won't and likely cut corners to make the item as cheep as possible.
That's what I meant -- it's a pretty important label in my opinion.
Consumer reports does reviews, whereas underwriter's laboratories (UL) performs failure testing. What UL does is a magnitude more in depth, even considering how much more in-depth Consumer Reports reviews are than most news sources.
Sure I just meant by volume and scope
For books, your local independent bookstore can order pretty much any book for you if you walk in and ask (if they don't already have what you want). They won't charge shipping, it'll just come with their next shipment from the publisher and then you can come pick it up. Or if you have to do things online, try https://bookshop.org
That can very much depend on your local independent store. I have had mixed results over the years.
And they will charge me $50 for making an online order.
Why are we romanizing middle-men between you and a web form?
Why are we romanizing middle-men between you and a web form?
Bro, just email the bookstore. Going through a middle man designed/optimized to rip both you and the bookstore off (some SAAS bookstore site solution) of course jacks the price up.
At this point, if it's online, it's worse/crap/designed to screw you and whoever you are dealing with as much as it can get away with.
At this point, if it's online, it's worse/crap/designed to screw you and whoever you are dealing with as much as it can get away with.
> if it's online, it's worse/crap/designed to screw you
This doesn’t follow.
This doesn’t follow.
In my experience, gavinsyancey is correct. If the situation arises, you should give it a try. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised.
Having to physically go to a store just to you can at some point physically go to a store to buy something is quite a large amount of friction compared to pressing a button and having something show up at your door.
The "incompetent competitors" is a big point for me. I prefer to buy from a more trusted local (in Japan) store. But it is so cumbersome! Buying something on Amazon is fast and smooth, and they have a huuge selection.
Regarding price, many stores here price fit, so Amazon is not actually cheaper.
> and they have a huuge selection
That's the big thing for me. I don't live close to a big city, so local selection is pretty limited. For some things there isn't even a local store available.
That's the big thing for me. I don't live close to a big city, so local selection is pretty limited. For some things there isn't even a local store available.
Anymore.
For obscure items, all it takes is once from Amazon to kill you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B90_SNNbcoU
For obscure items, all it takes is once from Amazon to kill you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B90_SNNbcoU
I was having a conversation earlier today with an acquaitance who bought rubbing alcohol off of Amazon because according to him none of the pharmacies in his city have it.
He lives in Seattle.
It really feels like people's behaviors have been permanently changed for the worst, even if a "proper" competitor comes in.
I no longer have prime shipping, and seeing "shipping: $5" next to anything on Amazon definitely helps me to do at least cursory searches in local stores... would probably be a net benefit to society to outlaw Prime
He lives in Seattle.
It really feels like people's behaviors have been permanently changed for the worst, even if a "proper" competitor comes in.
I no longer have prime shipping, and seeing "shipping: $5" next to anything on Amazon definitely helps me to do at least cursory searches in local stores... would probably be a net benefit to society to outlaw Prime
Here in Germany, you used to be able to buy chemicals at pharmacies. Then, the EU plus the usual German compliance-by-the-letter came along... the EU imposed serious controls on chemicals because many can be used to make bombs (e.g. acetone plus hydrogen peroxide yields APEX/TATP) or various illicit drugs. That legislation now not just requires a bullshit amount of paperwork for each transaction but also requires pharmacy staff to pass and renew a certification for dealing with chemicals. No, the actual doctor in pharmaceuticals that one needs to pass to open a pharmacy is not enough.
As a result, nearly all pharmacies here dropped the entire lines of making medication on-site and selling chemicals, because only the latter kept the former financially viable.
So, your only options left are either: a) buy from Amazon or eBay sellers that outright don't care about the German peculiarities or b) if you manage to qualify, buy from the usual selection of lab supply wholesalers. But something like "start a German NileRed channel", that's completely out of the question. The kind of stuff he buys, no way to get that without a commercial entity, and good luck getting that in place without at least a bachelor's degree in chemistry.
As a result, nearly all pharmacies here dropped the entire lines of making medication on-site and selling chemicals, because only the latter kept the former financially viable.
So, your only options left are either: a) buy from Amazon or eBay sellers that outright don't care about the German peculiarities or b) if you manage to qualify, buy from the usual selection of lab supply wholesalers. But something like "start a German NileRed channel", that's completely out of the question. The kind of stuff he buys, no way to get that without a commercial entity, and good luck getting that in place without at least a bachelor's degree in chemistry.
I hear your pain about the legislation. It sounds like it sucks.
> The kind of stuff he buys, no way to get that without a commercial entity, and good luck getting that in place without at least a bachelor's degree in chemistry.
NileRed has a Bachelor of Science degree in biochemistry with a minor in pharmacology.
> The kind of stuff he buys, no way to get that without a commercial entity, and good luck getting that in place without at least a bachelor's degree in chemistry.
NileRed has a Bachelor of Science degree in biochemistry with a minor in pharmacology.
Nile has even a masters in chemistry I think, and very likely at least a business entity. So might work. And even for him some things are hard to get, a Canada has similar restrictions.
If you want to order from a supplier typically the minimum bar is going to be a commercial entity and commercial warehouse space in an area zoned for light industrial where you have someone physically present during business hours to sign for deliveries. And that's just the minimum; you'll still run into other hurdles depending on the details.
He does but IIRC he started the channel when he was still a student and did his early videos in his parents' garage. Something like that is unachievable today.
I agree with your general sentiment of regulatory dysfunction. But I'd like to point out that it's not so straightforward to purchase a lot of that stuff in the US either. Perhaps not quite as legally involved as the EU but still not simple.
You can also just make most things yourself. It isn't cost effective for a commercial entity (due to wages for highly educated professionals) but for a hobbyist, who cares? That of course calls into question the bulk of the regulatory approach. When I can pull up a youtube video of someone making solid rocket fuel with a plastic jug and a phone charger what was the point of requiring all the paperwork?
If you're lucky the recommended videos will even have footage of someone getting arrested for misusing something substantially similar.
You can also just make most things yourself. It isn't cost effective for a commercial entity (due to wages for highly educated professionals) but for a hobbyist, who cares? That of course calls into question the bulk of the regulatory approach. When I can pull up a youtube video of someone making solid rocket fuel with a plastic jug and a phone charger what was the point of requiring all the paperwork?
If you're lucky the recommended videos will even have footage of someone getting arrested for misusing something substantially similar.
> e.g. acetone plus hydrogen peroxide yields APEX/TATP
TIL, didn't know that. Acetone is right next to peroxide in the local household items store (in the Netherlands) over here. But a few aisles over you can also find CBD oil and melatonin, heavy duty painkillers like diclofenac, etc.
TIL, didn't know that. Acetone is right next to peroxide in the local household items store (in the Netherlands) over here. But a few aisles over you can also find CBD oil and melatonin, heavy duty painkillers like diclofenac, etc.
These are available here as well, but the concentrations (especially of the hydrogen peroxide) are far too low to be useful in bombmaking or most classic experiments involving it, and on top of that dilution from the factory, it's likely a bunch of the peroxide dissociated since it was manufactured. You need to concentrate the hydrogen peroxide up to be useful for more than cleaning blood stains, and that's pretty dangerous.
Ok but my friend lives in Seattle and like every walgreens reported having it in stock on their website. Maybe some of them are wrong but I don’t believe it.
The concentrations in the household cleaner section are way too low to be usable for anything but small scale household cleanups.
There's a reason why you can't get industrial strength cleaners in a Walmart - too many people would either seriously injure themselves because they don't know they actually need PPE or otherwise this stuff will break down their skin, because they mix it and make enough mustard gas to actually kill them, or because they break down their homes because guess what, a highly acidic cleaning agent and most kinds of stone don't mix.
Of course, yes, one can try to concentrate H2O2 but there's easier and less messy ways to off oneself than this.
There's a reason why you can't get industrial strength cleaners in a Walmart - too many people would either seriously injure themselves because they don't know they actually need PPE or otherwise this stuff will break down their skin, because they mix it and make enough mustard gas to actually kill them, or because they break down their homes because guess what, a highly acidic cleaning agent and most kinds of stone don't mix.
Of course, yes, one can try to concentrate H2O2 but there's easier and less messy ways to off oneself than this.
Yeah I didn't really challenge my friend on this that much so it could have been that they couldn't find the thing they wanted.
his thing was mostly "pharmacies don't have _anything_" which just feels like a pretty spurious claim.
his thing was mostly "pharmacies don't have _anything_" which just feels like a pretty spurious claim.
Rubbing alcohol is also cheap enough that the 'free shipping' is really just being included in the price.
Still better than sellers that only show a tiny price up front but then hit you with unreasonably high shipping costs once you are already invested in making a purchase. And often it's only free with large enough orders in which case the purchase price can still be reasonable - not any worse than what brick and mortar stores add to the price to pay for the physical shelf space the product takes up anyway.
I tried to find replacement shoelaces locally and none of the shoe stores in a 20-mile radius had any at all. Not the big chains, not the independent places, nothing. My only option was to buy them online.
Is there nothing like Timpsons [1] in the US?
Small units in arcades and indoor markets or near railway stations in most UK towns of any size.
They do key copying, watch batteries and straps, shoe repairs (where feasible) and, yes, shoe laces.
Stoll's site, the Klein bottle hats and Mobius scarves! "Two manifolds for one low price". I'm after those for autumn.
[1] https://www.timpson.co.uk/
Stoll's site, the Klein bottle hats and Mobius scarves! "Two manifolds for one low price". I'm after those for autumn.
[1] https://www.timpson.co.uk/
> It really feels like people's behaviors have been permanently changed for the worst
I recently spent a year in Shanghai, and when I would ask a friend where to go to buy something I needed, the response was always a confused "buy it online and have it delivered".
I don't care for that. I'd like to have things available in stores.
I recently spent a year in Shanghai, and when I would ask a friend where to go to buy something I needed, the response was always a confused "buy it online and have it delivered".
I don't care for that. I'd like to have things available in stores.
Is this a J Rockefeller move, Amazon selling for below market prices to degrade the performance of competitors in a specific market?
It's easy to sneeze at "deficient competitors" as well, but the whole massive spend on infrastructure - warehouses, delivery vans, etc. is hard to replicate. In one sense, it's worth an antitrust look if that whole system essentially stiles competition
It's easy to sneeze at "deficient competitors" as well, but the whole massive spend on infrastructure - warehouses, delivery vans, etc. is hard to replicate. In one sense, it's worth an antitrust look if that whole system essentially stiles competition
I don't find their prices are below market or the competition though. If you shop brand-for-brand and the same items they are identical or more. Example: I bought a new edging trimmer. Amazon appeared $60 cheaper but it didn't come with a battery. People love the one-stop, one-click everyhting delivered quick more than the prices or actual product. It's today's air travel experience for everything.
Now, yes, but they've already killed off much of the competition by now.
I don't really think so. You can find pretty much everything they sell on either the manufacturer's own website, or another big retail site such as ebay or walmart.com, or on a specialist website. It's more work though, to find and browse those sites than to just pull up Amazon and be done with it, and then getting back to see what you missed on TikTok.
Strange in a way how saving 2 minutes is a differentiator online. Back in the brick-and-mortar days you'd spend 2 minutes at a stoplight on the way to the store without even thinking about it.
And ordering from catalogs? If I got the item in two weeks that seemed pretty fast.
Strange in a way how saving 2 minutes is a differentiator online. Back in the brick-and-mortar days you'd spend 2 minutes at a stoplight on the way to the store without even thinking about it.
And ordering from catalogs? If I got the item in two weeks that seemed pretty fast.
> You can find pretty much everything they sell on either the manufacturer's own website…
Increasingly, I find these just linking to the corresponding Amazon listing.
> or another big retail site such as ebay or walmart.com…
Same strategy/problem there, IMO.
Increasingly, I find these just linking to the corresponding Amazon listing.
> or another big retail site such as ebay or walmart.com…
Same strategy/problem there, IMO.
Not too long ago I bought rubbing alcohol on amazon because it wasn't available in a few places I checked locally. I was looking for a less diluted solution, everywhere around me had, what seemed to be, the standard (I think it was 70%?) solution.
Perhaps that acquaintance was in a similar situation.
Perhaps that acquaintance was in a similar situation.
I think a lot of it is even less, closer to 50%. Costco has the good stuff, but it's not cheap.
Side note that 70% is supposedly the best concentration for disinfection, but if you want it for cleaning parts or something, you'd want a more concentrated solution of course. Some drug stores will carry 99% but you can get more concentrated alcohols from scientific supply stores.
That's exactly what I was looking to do with it, cleaning. I wasn't too surprised I couldn't find it at a drug store but I was surprised I couldn't find it at a hardware store either.
Most of the pharmacy chains (Bartell, Rite Aid, Walgreens) in Seattle are bankrupt. Last time I was in a Bartell the shelves were nearly empty. He might be right.
>none of the pharmacies in his city have it.
>He lives in Seattle.
Stores may have it, but have it locked up or behind the counter (or just not carry it at all) my (seattle) grocery store carries hand sanitizer, but not on the shelf. You have to find an employee (good luck...) and ask them to go get it from the back/wherever. Or order the same product on Amazon for same-day delivery for the same price or cheaper :-/
Stores may have it, but have it locked up or behind the counter (or just not carry it at all) my (seattle) grocery store carries hand sanitizer, but not on the shelf. You have to find an employee (good luck...) and ask them to go get it from the back/wherever. Or order the same product on Amazon for same-day delivery for the same price or cheaper :-/
I don't have Prime either (and never did except for the free student trial year) but shipping is still "free"* when you just bunch up your orders so they are above the minimum for that.
(*) Of course you pay for shipping via the purchase price but you do that even if you order individual items and also with Prime.
(*) Of course you pay for shipping via the purchase price but you do that even if you order individual items and also with Prime.
I often think how great it would be to have a site where I could see all the shops nearby that have stock of X at Y price even if they don’t do online shopping. For example I am certain there are multiple places near me that have some 5m 10t tie-down straps, I’d happily drive to one to collect, but I won’t drive or ring 10-20 shops to find them so just order on Amazon.
It’s a tough problem I guess with so many stock systems out there and inevitably whoever creates the site will want to monetise it, then slowly enshitify it.
It’s a tough problem I guess with so many stock systems out there and inevitably whoever creates the site will want to monetise it, then slowly enshitify it.
I bet most companies wouldn’t want to share that information, as they would end up directly competing for every item with every other store in the radius. Most stores have cost leaders on some items and then make up for that lost revenue with higher margins on others. With the new system, every store would have their high margin items next to the same item, but sold as a cost leader, at other stores
I agree with you, and this backwards mentality is handing even more business over from smaller local shops to the big online stores!
People are going to discover your prices anyway. Hiding them just means it will take longer. I remember my grandpa used to go to five different grocery stores weekly, just to do grocery shopping, because he knew store A had the cheapest eggs, store B had the cheapest vegetables, store C had the cheapest milk, and so on.
People are going to discover your prices anyway. Hiding them just means it will take longer. I remember my grandpa used to go to five different grocery stores weekly, just to do grocery shopping, because he knew store A had the cheapest eggs, store B had the cheapest vegetables, store C had the cheapest milk, and so on.
And the same stores will then complain that Amazon is taking their business. Also, loss leaders don't make sense unless that price is widely known to the point where it draws people into your store.
This is basically what Google Shopping does, although it's mostly limited to major chains.
Here's an example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=rubbing+alcohol+nearby&udm=2...
Here's an example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=rubbing+alcohol+nearby&udm=2...
I wanted to try out the tee-shirt hustle once.
There was a cool design (or at least I thought so) I came up with. Had about 100 of those printed.
Went to Amazon to get a seller account:
1) learned that if I had only 1 tee-shirt with a single design to sell, I couldn't get the account.
2) after researching the competition, discovered that many of the tee-shirt designs for sale were:
There was a cool design (or at least I thought so) I came up with. Had about 100 of those printed.
Went to Amazon to get a seller account:
1) learned that if I had only 1 tee-shirt with a single design to sell, I couldn't get the account.
2) after researching the competition, discovered that many of the tee-shirt designs for sale were:
a) clearly in copyright violation (e.g. Disney characters on some mom & pop store.
b) their images on their store were just a photoshopped tee-shirt. I.e., not photos of the actual tee-shirt they had for sale. But the design photoshopped on to a photo of a blank tee-shirt.
Copyright violation on t-shirts seems to be the norm, it's not just Amazon. Basically every t-shirt seller out there will allow user-submitted design that infringe on someone's IP.
I'm not complaining, cause I love my Mario/Banksy crossover t-shirt, but it's just how it is, Disney & co just don't bother going after them, they're happy to sell you their official™ stuff through other channels.
I'm not complaining, cause I love my Mario/Banksy crossover t-shirt, but it's just how it is, Disney & co just don't bother going after them, they're happy to sell you their official™ stuff through other channels.
Copyright law only restricts commercial activity, so if you print a Nintendo character on your shirt, to wear yourself, there's no means for Nintendo to sue you over it. File sharing lawsuits are not over users downloading content, but over users seeding it, which is on by default in most file sharing clients.
If you hire someone to print it on the shirt for you, and then distribute the shirt, you would be liable for copyright infringement, not the printer, because the printer isn't supplying the artwork, you are. It's no different than placing phone calls to perform an illegal activity. The phone provider isn't guilty, but you are.
If you order a custom shirt, and provide unlicensed copyrighted artwork, but don't distribute it, then no one is in a position to get in trouble.
If you hire someone to print it on the shirt for you, and then distribute the shirt, you would be liable for copyright infringement, not the printer, because the printer isn't supplying the artwork, you are. It's no different than placing phone calls to perform an illegal activity. The phone provider isn't guilty, but you are.
If you order a custom shirt, and provide unlicensed copyrighted artwork, but don't distribute it, then no one is in a position to get in trouble.
I once asked a laptop skin company to print a design that included the logo of the company I worked for, and they refused, unless I also provided a release from our Legal Department (which they would never do, so I gave it up).
So I assume that a lot of self-publishing type companies may refuse to do copyrighted stuff, even for one-off jobs.
So I assume that a lot of self-publishing type companies may refuse to do copyrighted stuff, even for one-off jobs.
This is something I've just never understood. Of course, I didn't drink the kool-aid either. I understand when working for a company that gives away their corporate branded swag to employees that free stuff is tempting. I know some people whose entire wardrobe is company swag, and they don't wear it just at work but during off time during the weekends. (I understand young employees fresh out of school that might be the cheapest way to survive with free corp branded stuff is tempting.) However, being willing to pay to have swag produced is even further beyond my ability at comprehension. I thought people that bought company swag was out there, but paying for one off items is just cray cray to me
It's nice to work for an organization that you're proud to be at; even as an older person. Pretty rare, but can happen. The mercenary approach that so many low-level employees have, is a bit depressing. When we spend the majority of our time somewhere, it's kinda nice to feel good about it (BTW: The company would have paid for it. It was for company gear, to help build the brand, when working with outside entities. I didn't use the laptop for personal stuff -I actually had a much better one, for my own work).
But it's entirely possible that I'm crazy, anyway. You're probably quite perceptive.
But it's entirely possible that I'm crazy, anyway. You're probably quite perceptive.
The mercenary approach is a direct consequence of companies treating employees as replaceable cogs so I don't think its fair to blame the "low-level" employees for this.
No blame intended. I’m quite aware that the first move to fix the situation, is incumbent upon the C-suite.
It’s still discouraging, though, as the attitude actually hurts the lower-level folks, much more than the bosses, who have learned to “game the system.”
It’s still discouraging, though, as the attitude actually hurts the lower-level folks, much more than the bosses, who have learned to “game the system.”
I have a large sarcastic hilarious unique sticker on my company laptop for the last 7 years (transferred) it was worth the $40. Given wfh it was kinda like Pokemon the % of coworkers who noticed it. Basically creating company lore.
I don't like company-branded swag either but the reason that gifts for employees are usually company-branded is due to tax reasons - the company logo allows it to count as advertisement which is a business expense rather than employee compensation.
As a general rule of thumb, I don’t wear branded stuff; regardless of the brand.
In some cases, though, like at trade shows and tech conferences, we were required to wear it.
In some cases, though, like at trade shows and tech conferences, we were required to wear it.
> Copyright law only restricts commercial activity
So torrenting movies is legal?
So torrenting movies is legal?
No, you are still reproducing a copyrighted work. It is a violation for torrents and t shirts. Commercial copyright holders tend to go after those that distribute or enable large scale infringement in some way. It most certainly restricts individuals from reproducing copyrighted works on a one off basis.
Torrenting is risky because of seeding. You get in trouble for distribution more than possession.
> Copyright law only restricts commercial activity
That is just not true. A copyright gives the owner thereof exclusive rights to make a copy of his work. Neither the creator nor the copier have to sell anything.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106
Noncommercial use is a factor to be considered for fair use if the copier is doing it for a protected purpose. (Creating a t-shirt for your personal use is not a protected purpose and can therefore never be fair use on its own though.)
The reason someone making a personal shirt doesn't get sued is because suing people is expensive, that harms goodwill, and Disney isn't getting any money from such a person anyway.
That is just not true. A copyright gives the owner thereof exclusive rights to make a copy of his work. Neither the creator nor the copier have to sell anything.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106
Noncommercial use is a factor to be considered for fair use if the copier is doing it for a protected purpose. (Creating a t-shirt for your personal use is not a protected purpose and can therefore never be fair use on its own though.)
The reason someone making a personal shirt doesn't get sued is because suing people is expensive, that harms goodwill, and Disney isn't getting any money from such a person anyway.
I should clarify that noncommercial use something different: an exemption for commercial activity. What copyright enforcement can't recover is income from activity that couldn't have generated revenue, in the first place. If I draw a Nintendo character on my own T-shirt, and never sell that T-shirt, that's not a copyright violation, because there's no way I could have made money from it. Whereas, if I draw a character on a T-shirt, then give it away for free, it's noncommercial activity, but it could be subject to copyright, because I could have charged for it.
Ordering your own prints really should not be a copyright issue anyway even if the law currently might disagree.
Amazon also has their own book printing service that they sell books from under several marques, I assume to make it more difficult to tell it’s from them.
The books are very low quality with poor typesetting that makes them unpleasant to read.
The books are very low quality with poor typesetting that makes them unpleasant to read.
It doesn't hurt that Amazon can leverage economies of scale which are orders of magnitude greater than their utterly deficient competitors
> I also tried to move all my books purchasing to B&N and again, surprisingly, they haven’t learned any real lesson in past 25 years. Their website is clunky, they charge $7 delivery fee, they can’t even deliver to my nearest their own shop for free!
I went to barnesandnoble.com to check this out.
There's a banner at the top of the page:
> Uh-oh, it looks like your Internet Explorer is out of date.
> For a better shopping experience, please upgrade now.
The words "upgrade now" link to http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/internet-explorer/downloa... .
It does look like you're right that they won't ship books to your local B&N:
> Other reasons that an item may not be available for Buy Online, Pick Up in Store include:
> The item is out of stock in your selected store
This is very odd, because they will do that if you go into the store and order from there.
I went to barnesandnoble.com to check this out.
There's a banner at the top of the page:
> Uh-oh, it looks like your Internet Explorer is out of date.
> For a better shopping experience, please upgrade now.
The words "upgrade now" link to http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/internet-explorer/downloa... .
It does look like you're right that they won't ship books to your local B&N:
> Other reasons that an item may not be available for Buy Online, Pick Up in Store include:
> The item is out of stock in your selected store
This is very odd, because they will do that if you go into the store and order from there.
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I used to buy a certain book series on fictionwise, because it was the only site selling those books in my country.
B&N bought Fictionwise, and first thing they did was determine that you need to be physically inside USA to download stuff.
Now only way for me to get those books is pirated. :( Maybe I should just download them pirated and donate the price of the books directly to the author account or something. I really don't understand what is the problem of B&N or how they still exist, they are literally anti-business.
B&N bought Fictionwise, and first thing they did was determine that you need to be physically inside USA to download stuff.
Now only way for me to get those books is pirated. :( Maybe I should just download them pirated and donate the price of the books directly to the author account or something. I really don't understand what is the problem of B&N or how they still exist, they are literally anti-business.
How did they determine if you were physically within the US? How would using a VPN not provide the same ability?
Not that it's the case for B&N, but many sites block VPN. Reddit for example.
There are always options that do work, some shadier than others though.
Does it matter? You can't expect people to set up a VPN just so they can give you money.
> I tried to move my purchases to Walmart
Walmart does (or at least did) something similar.
* About 7 years ago, I purchased a toy drone online from Walmart for one of my sons for Christmas.
* I purchased it before Thanksgiving because the Walmart website urged me to purchase in time for Christmas delivery.
* My son opened the gift on Christmas and the drone was broken (out of the box).
* I tried to return the drone to a brick-and-mortar Walmart store and they told me that they couldn't issue a refund because I bought it on their website, but it was through a 3rd party seller. I had to take it up with the 3rd party.
* Remember the part where I said I bought the drone before Thanksgiving?? Well, I contacted the 3rd party and was told they had a strict 30 day return policy and they could not issue a refund.
It was a cheap gift, but the whole ordeal bothers me to this day.
Walmart does (or at least did) something similar.
* About 7 years ago, I purchased a toy drone online from Walmart for one of my sons for Christmas.
* I purchased it before Thanksgiving because the Walmart website urged me to purchase in time for Christmas delivery.
* My son opened the gift on Christmas and the drone was broken (out of the box).
* I tried to return the drone to a brick-and-mortar Walmart store and they told me that they couldn't issue a refund because I bought it on their website, but it was through a 3rd party seller. I had to take it up with the 3rd party.
* Remember the part where I said I bought the drone before Thanksgiving?? Well, I contacted the 3rd party and was told they had a strict 30 day return policy and they could not issue a refund.
It was a cheap gift, but the whole ordeal bothers me to this day.
Yes I buy household stuff on Walmart's website quite often, but only stuff sold and shipped by Walmart. They have a lot of third party listings on the site also, which many people may not realize, or if they do, they don't understand that Walmart only facilitates the transaction for these, you cannot do returns or get support at a Walmart store.
Walmart does accept returns for third-party products in-store but only for the 30 days after their delivery date.
Yeah, I always check the Sold by Walmart box, and I need a good reason to go outside that list. It's just just about returns. Walmart does supply chain quality control that does not seem to happen as reliably on the 3rd party listings. (edited because I'm sure some 3rd party sellers are legit. target for example offers a selectable but short list of sellers, I imagine you could check them for reputation)
This isn't just Walmart though. Most non-Amazon websites have a similar option. Lowes, Target, NewEgg...
This isn't just Walmart though. Most non-Amazon websites have a similar option. Lowes, Target, NewEgg...
ocd reply to myself... s/just just/not just/
This is an issue with many retailers surrounding holiday and 30 day policies.
You'd think they could use some exception for defective items versus just normal return/exchange, but they rarely do
You'd think they could use some exception for defective items versus just normal return/exchange, but they rarely do
I just saw a Walmart commercial where they were proudly pronouncing they had half-billion items.
I couldn’t help to think that I wanted anything but that. I want a lot of items, but I prefer quality items over random crap.
I couldn’t help to think that I wanted anything but that. I want a lot of items, but I prefer quality items over random crap.
> A lot of books, even small scale ones, are also fake and very low quality.
My sister works in manga and anime publishing and this is an existential threat to her company. Some of the issues they're grappling with:
1. For some of their titles, the genuine item doesn't even appear among search results on Amazon—only the counterfeits do.
2. The quality issues with the counterfeits can result in losing all future business from a customer. For example, download codes will be missing or non-functional. Irrational as it is, customers blame the publisher when this happens and stop buying further titles from them.
3. Amazon seems to be using some slapdash ML to determine how many of each title to order. They'll purchase 10k of vols. 5 and 7 of a series and only 1k of vol. 6. Guess how many of that 10k of vol. 7 end up selling when that happens?
Amazon is, needless to say, non-responsive to their concerns.
My sister works in manga and anime publishing and this is an existential threat to her company. Some of the issues they're grappling with:
1. For some of their titles, the genuine item doesn't even appear among search results on Amazon—only the counterfeits do.
2. The quality issues with the counterfeits can result in losing all future business from a customer. For example, download codes will be missing or non-functional. Irrational as it is, customers blame the publisher when this happens and stop buying further titles from them.
3. Amazon seems to be using some slapdash ML to determine how many of each title to order. They'll purchase 10k of vols. 5 and 7 of a series and only 1k of vol. 6. Guess how many of that 10k of vol. 7 end up selling when that happens?
Amazon is, needless to say, non-responsive to their concerns.
> They'll purchase 10k of vols. 5 and 7 of a series and only 1k of vol. 6. Guess how many of that 10k of vol. 7 end up selling when that happens?
I've noticed that too in manga. It's amazing they screw it up so bad, given their origin as a book seller.
I've noticed that too in manga. It's amazing they screw it up so bad, given their origin as a book seller.
My local library had books 1-3 and 5-6 of a series I was reading by an author who I own all of her later books. I even tried to find a copy at the local used shop, thinking I would read it and then donate it, but due to her rising star they had printed new editions in a completely different style, and size. I ended up pirating a copy of that book instead. Then bought the audio book for a book I already owned as penance.
I suspect when there are gaps that either the counterfeiters win or nobody wins.
I suspect when there are gaps that either the counterfeiters win or nobody wins.
What I'd like to know is: has anyone ever sued Amazon for this? There seems to be plenty of evidence for a massive class action suit. They are knowingly and intentionally screwing sellers and customers alike.
The lesson they have learned is that people who care, can tell the difference and shop with them are such a small minority that it isn't worth it to their bottom line to address this. The government doesn't seem to care either. The market isn't going to fix this.
Maybe you can round up enough people for a common cause as discussed in the article, but that doesn't scale. Take notice that for all its talk about America first policy & general sinophobia, the current admin in Washington hasn't done anything about this either. They don't care about American small businesses or consumers. They only care about people like Jeff Bezos, the Waltons, etc.
Maybe you can round up enough people for a common cause as discussed in the article, but that doesn't scale. Take notice that for all its talk about America first policy & general sinophobia, the current admin in Washington hasn't done anything about this either. They don't care about American small businesses or consumers. They only care about people like Jeff Bezos, the Waltons, etc.
The other half of this is that the degraded marketplace rewards ad spending, and ad spending is now a significant amount of revenue for Amazon (IIRC, it's behind AWS but doesn't need nearly as many people)
My client sells on Amazon in Europe and is constantly harassed for presumed IP infringement, safety issues etc. usually due to somebody else either incorrectly renaming item or item name containing some trigger like "life", "battery" or some other brand's name. I always wonder how are examples like yours possible there at all.
Sheer volume mostly. Lots of scammy companies create new accounts to sell products until someone complains, then the abandon the account and start a new one. Basically the same as most spam operations
In Canada (and I assume everywhere) it's a race to the bottom. Both WalMart and BestBuy are dominated by 3rd party products in their online stores, and you never know what you will get. Some are perfectly fine and sell legit products; others as bad as Amazon.I've found books from Indigo are pretty close to Amazon in selection, price and delivery but that's such as small part of what people buy online now.
Bookshop.org if you want your books local local. Best Buy for electronics (or B&H if it's near you). General home goods I've gone back to just using the grocery store.
Amazon just outright can't be trusted as a marketplace any more.
I have no clue if it’s still true, but Wal-Mart back in the day used to go to the manufacturers of some products and request that same product at a lower price. The idea was “get it to us at that cost, no matter what you have to do” - so you would see name brand products meant to be very similar to ones you would see, but with inferior build quality, and the only distinguishing mark is that it has a different product ID from the manufacturer.
Point being: it doesn’t matter if Walmart does this, because it’s already an empty promise from them, too.
Just stop shopping at these behemoths.
Point being: it doesn’t matter if Walmart does this, because it’s already an empty promise from them, too.
Just stop shopping at these behemoths.
That is pretty sketchy behavior. But… it still doesn’t seem quite as bad as letting some third party steal an established listing.
At least users will correctly blame some well-known brand for their shoddy craftsmanship.
At least users will correctly blame some well-known brand for their shoddy craftsmanship.
Fast Company did a famous article about this back in 2003, with the example of a gallon jar of pickles priced at $2.97:
https://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-know-2
https://archive.is/e25nB
https://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-know-2
https://archive.is/e25nB
This was a great read, but one part in particular made me laugh a bit:
>Wal-Mart is not just the world’s largest retailer. It’s the world’s largest company–bigger than ExxonMobil, General Motors, and General Electric. The scale can be hard to absorb. Wal-Mart sold $244.5 billion worth of goods last year. It sells in three months what number-two retailer Home Depot sells in a year.
Ah, the innocence of 2003.
>Wal-Mart is not just the world’s largest retailer. It’s the world’s largest company–bigger than ExxonMobil, General Motors, and General Electric. The scale can be hard to absorb. Wal-Mart sold $244.5 billion worth of goods last year. It sells in three months what number-two retailer Home Depot sells in a year.
Ah, the innocence of 2003.
Why Sears Roebuck missed the boat on this I will never understand. There could have been a call to return to their past by embracing the future the moment Amazon proved it was default alive.
What the fuck, guys.
What the fuck, guys.
I also noticed lots of dubious companies selling hot tub/pool chemicals. I assume there is a more stringent approval process for this as legitimate companies sell them, but knockoffs use accents like "Chlóriñē" to get around whatever filter Amazon has.
Seeing evasions like that are a really strong 'code smell' to me that the 'regulator' in question is in on the scam.
Imagine if you were standing in front of a narcotics officer on the street, and you say to your friend "Hey, I have some Cane-Coke available. wink. Want to buy it?" He's standing right there, and doesn't bat an eye.
That's Amazon. They care about following laws, regulations, etc. exactly enough to have plausible deniability and no further. Oh gee, Sarge, that guy was speaking in code and I had no idea he was selling drugs.
If they cared, they'd ban sellers immediately for evading a filter, and raise barriers to entry until it was painful to start a new account. Like requiring every seller to have a US entity with a real business license and an identity-verified named agent, and ban the agent and anyone else they represent for violations. This is just one quick idea but by no means the only way. But you can bet Amazon would never even try to police their marketplace better because they'd rather just skim their cut of both legitimate and fraudulent or illegal activity.
Imagine if you were standing in front of a narcotics officer on the street, and you say to your friend "Hey, I have some Cane-Coke available. wink. Want to buy it?" He's standing right there, and doesn't bat an eye.
That's Amazon. They care about following laws, regulations, etc. exactly enough to have plausible deniability and no further. Oh gee, Sarge, that guy was speaking in code and I had no idea he was selling drugs.
If they cared, they'd ban sellers immediately for evading a filter, and raise barriers to entry until it was painful to start a new account. Like requiring every seller to have a US entity with a real business license and an identity-verified named agent, and ban the agent and anyone else they represent for violations. This is just one quick idea but by no means the only way. But you can bet Amazon would never even try to police their marketplace better because they'd rather just skim their cut of both legitimate and fraudulent or illegal activity.
The regulator in on (or at least indifferent to) the scam also includes the government here though. The whole market place excuse is incredibly weak and even if it currently would hold up then the legislative can fix that. After all, no buyer ever says they bought something from OMEJINE or whatever fake names Amazon shows you - they say they bought something on Amazon.
Maybe we should do a curated shopping portal of US based mom & pop shops?
I actually made pretty good experiences with eBay.
I actually made pretty good experiences with eBay.
Yes it's really sad how with how much Amazon have been getting shittier they are still the best around. Refunds is another thing that is almost always a pain with other stores but Amazon makes it smooth (but sadly also more and more necessary).
Another pain point is shipping costs. With Amazon I can just filter for free shipping with whatever the current minimum-purchase price for that is whereas elsewhere I am too often surprised by unreasonably high shipping charges designed to make the purchase price look better on comparison sites.
Another pain point is shipping costs. With Amazon I can just filter for free shipping with whatever the current minimum-purchase price for that is whereas elsewhere I am too often surprised by unreasonably high shipping charges designed to make the purchase price look better on comparison sites.
In case there are readers who don't know who Clifford Stoll is, he's the author of The Cuckoo's Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of Computer Espionage, that was practically required reading if you were a programmer or hacker in the early 1990s.
I didn't understand how hijacking worked on Amazon until I read this lucid explanation. Clearly he's still a great writer.
He's on Hacker News as CliffStoll. This makes me wonder how Hacker News deals with someone registering a famous person's name if they are not that person? I'm guessing that it's not a big problem here on HN because there's nothing being sold.
I didn't understand how hijacking worked on Amazon until I read this lucid explanation. Clearly he's still a great writer.
He's on Hacker News as CliffStoll. This makes me wonder how Hacker News deals with someone registering a famous person's name if they are not that person? I'm guessing that it's not a big problem here on HN because there's nothing being sold.
I just saw him give a talk at Thotcon in Chicago about catching one of the first hackers and it was by far the best talk I've seen in quite a while. He's eccentric, animated, and an amazing storyteller.
Oh, Thotcon was way fun, Server of cobras. The organizers gave me liberty to fool around, and there was a full house. Terrific time there!
I saw him give a talk in the late 1990s and he was one of the best presenters I've seen, I'd go out of my way to see him if you have a chance.
His NOVA episode on the same subject is worth a watch as well https://youtu.be/Xe5AE-qYan8
I think most younger readers will be familiar through his videos on the Numberphile YouTube channel.
I think most younger readers will be familiar through his videos on the Numberphile YouTube channel.
I think that was the book that I read on my Palm Pilot. But it's been a while.
I had the klein stein at one point, but got rid of it when downsizing. It was hard to clean, so not practical for drinking, and not as pretty on the shelf as a classic klein bottle. I'd recommend one of those if you're thinking of getting one.
I had the klein stein at one point, but got rid of it when downsizing. It was hard to clean, so not practical for drinking, and not as pretty on the shelf as a classic klein bottle. I'd recommend one of those if you're thinking of getting one.
Wow! One of my all time favorite books and authors and the reason I got into this field. Thanks for that info.
This is amazing. I was literally reading the 3rd chapter of the book "Machine Beauty" in bed, saw the baby Clifford Stoll mentioned and looked it up because it sounded familiar. Of course I've seen the beautiful glass bottles here on HN before, so I went back to my book. After putting it down and hopping on HN, of course I see an article referencing this exact topic! Such a small world.
The first time I lived in Italy, back in the mid nineties, with expensive phone service and no home internet connection... I had a copy of that book and I think I read it like 10 times.
Reminder that there's also a film/dramatization/documentary of the events from the cuckoo's egg, with Cliff playing himself.
"The KGB, the Computer, and Me".
It can be found online, and it's worth a watch just because of him.
The man exudes good humor and niceness.
"The KGB, the Computer, and Me".
It can be found online, and it's worth a watch just because of him.
The man exudes good humor and niceness.
Yes, Riffraff -- We did that film (yep, 16mm film) just a few months after I finished writing Cuckoo's Egg. At the time, the world was ignorant of words like "Internet" "Unix" and "e-mail", so I had to define each of these as I went along.
>how Hacker News deals with someone registering a famous person's name
I registered as britneyspears, but dang got mad and made me change it. :(
I thought the absurdity of Britney being on HN was amusing.
I registered as britneyspears, but dang got mad and made me change it. :(
I thought the absurdity of Britney being on HN was amusing.
You'd think an ENCOM representative would be allowed to have whatever name they wanted.
Say it aint so. I learned all about lasers from Britney.
https://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm
https://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm
Great stuff! I always enjoy seeing websites from the 90s still being served to the public – even if they haven’t been updated in decades. Hedy Lamarr’s story was very interesting: https://britneyspears.ac/physics/intro/hedy.htm
Yep, I'm the same guy. Almost 40 years ago, I chased down those German hackers in my unix boxes; not knowing a thing about writing, I wrote Cuckoo's Egg. (a long story there - how to write a book)
Since then, I've lowered my periscope: my wife, Pat, and I decided to stay home together and raise two kids. They're now fledged - hooray! During that time, I started this micro-business of making Klein bottles - much fun!
Alas, but this past December, my wife left this vale of toil and tears. During the day, staying busy helps keep the grief under control; other times I'm in deep sadness, trying to find my way without her.
To all my friends & acquaintances on HN: my deep thanks for your kindness & support across decades. It's a joy to be considered a member of the tribe.
Since then, I've lowered my periscope: my wife, Pat, and I decided to stay home together and raise two kids. They're now fledged - hooray! During that time, I started this micro-business of making Klein bottles - much fun!
Alas, but this past December, my wife left this vale of toil and tears. During the day, staying busy helps keep the grief under control; other times I'm in deep sadness, trying to find my way without her.
To all my friends & acquaintances on HN: my deep thanks for your kindness & support across decades. It's a joy to be considered a member of the tribe.
I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. We’ve never met but I feel like I know you because of your book and many other works, and I feel your loss.
When I was doing security training for the engineers at Relativity, I gave each attendee (ultimately all of engineering) the book.
I saw Cliff speak twice at the Dayton Hamvention. The first time was a retelling of his Cuckoo's Egg story, and the second time was about the joy of learning and all the marvelous things you could get at the flea market to build something.
Thanks, Cliff!
I saw Cliff speak twice at the Dayton Hamvention. The first time was a retelling of his Cuckoo's Egg story, and the second time was about the joy of learning and all the marvelous things you could get at the flea market to build something.
Thanks, Cliff!
Cliff Stoll here. The brand hijacking on Amazon USA was fixed.
But Amazon Canada listing is still held by Amvoom. I'm unable to sell Klein bottles in Canada. sigh
If anyone knows how to fix this, please send email to me!
Many thanks, -Cliff
But Amazon Canada listing is still held by Amvoom. I'm unable to sell Klein bottles in Canada. sigh
If anyone knows how to fix this, please send email to me!
Many thanks, -Cliff
Hey Cliff, just curious: how were you made aware that this post on HN is trending?
Hi Matt,
All of a sudden, I got three or four Klein bottle orders. That's a lot for an hour! One of the orders (thank you Bryan in Johnstown) mentioned Hacker News. And, well, here I am.> That's a lot for an hour!
If you still handcraft each personally, that's keine kleine Klein problem.
If you still handcraft each personally, that's keine kleine Klein problem.
He hasn't for quite a while afaik, way too time intensive to build by hand so he (at least last I saw 10 years ago) had a big batch made by a glass blowing company.
Yep, I no longer make regular Klein bottles. I'm a so-so glassblower. (Indeed, most glass workers would consider me a good physicist. Physicists would say that I'm a good computer jock. Computer people think that I know a lot about math. Mathematicians feel that I'm a good glassblower.
Keep 'em all guessing.
Keep 'em all guessing.
Someone in there thinks you're an excellent fork lift roboticist as well
Are you still using the little forklift robot from the Numberphile video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU
Yep, Ritkew ... that homebrew forklift helps pull boxes of glass manifolds every day. The crawlspace is maybe 2 feet tall, and I don't like crawling around there.
It's how I cheat my chiropractor.
It's how I cheat my chiropractor.
Man, I enjoyed this so much. I love seeing people who just get things done, aren't too picky about solutions, and demonstrate ingenuity like this. I really admire it. Making things work with what you've got is an amazing skill, and something I need to work on more. I always want things to be 'just so' and I fail to appreciate how awesome things can be, even if they aren't perfect.
The cause is the same, the solution is the same: when companies become so big and capture so much market share that they no longer are responsive to the needs of their customers, it's time for them to be destroyed. Amazon should be dismantled into dozens or even hundreds of small companies and all its assets distributed among them.
If customers cared they'd swap to a competitor
There are no viable competitors because nobody is big enough to take on Amazon. Anyone with aspirations to will inevitably just get undercut and run out of business.
There exists some people, notably me, that refuse to use AMZN due to this type of shit they allow on their platform.
I got hooked on them during college because I got tired of getting shafted by the local university bookstore.
Used to be tax free as well since they were e-commerce related. But state comptrollers later closed that loop hole since they realized how much revenue they were losing.
Then some time in 2020-2021 learned about the abuses to their workers, awful working conditions, near impossible quotas. Then came the merchant abuse stories of AMZN using the purchasing data to push out their own white label items, advertising/ranking merchants below those items (sometimes even cheaper to undercut them). Then as a consumer, the quality of the items ordered from AMZN has dropped significantly.
Free shipping. Free returns. 1-day shipping/same day shipping. It’s all a gimmick and you pay for it in one way or another.
All of those factors have caused me to move my money away from AMZN completely.
Yes I realize warehouse division is nearly subsidized by AWS division. In the long run, it won’t matter unless there is a significant
What did I do:
Easy, purchase directly from manufacturer where possible. Shop local for similar items.
Still try to avoid big box stores as much as possible. For example, using mcmaster.com in place of big orange/blue.
Sure I pay for shipping but I end up buying in bulk to offset it anyways.
Sure it takes 3-4 days to arrive.
I likely won’t get free return shipping, but so far have never had to return items. ("Free returns” at most big box stores are now factored into the cost of items these days. So you pay for it even if you don’t use it)
But in the end, I am getting quality products. I think I can only recall a couple of cases where item did break under normal condition (dog harness). But they were happy to replace at no cost. No need to return defective item.
I got hooked on them during college because I got tired of getting shafted by the local university bookstore.
Used to be tax free as well since they were e-commerce related. But state comptrollers later closed that loop hole since they realized how much revenue they were losing.
Then some time in 2020-2021 learned about the abuses to their workers, awful working conditions, near impossible quotas. Then came the merchant abuse stories of AMZN using the purchasing data to push out their own white label items, advertising/ranking merchants below those items (sometimes even cheaper to undercut them). Then as a consumer, the quality of the items ordered from AMZN has dropped significantly.
Free shipping. Free returns. 1-day shipping/same day shipping. It’s all a gimmick and you pay for it in one way or another.
All of those factors have caused me to move my money away from AMZN completely.
Yes I realize warehouse division is nearly subsidized by AWS division. In the long run, it won’t matter unless there is a significant
What did I do:
Easy, purchase directly from manufacturer where possible. Shop local for similar items.
Still try to avoid big box stores as much as possible. For example, using mcmaster.com in place of big orange/blue.
Sure I pay for shipping but I end up buying in bulk to offset it anyways.
Sure it takes 3-4 days to arrive.
I likely won’t get free return shipping, but so far have never had to return items. ("Free returns” at most big box stores are now factored into the cost of items these days. So you pay for it even if you don’t use it)
But in the end, I am getting quality products. I think I can only recall a couple of cases where item did break under normal condition (dog harness). But they were happy to replace at no cost. No need to return defective item.
> Free shipping. Free returns. 1-day shipping/same day shipping. It’s all a gimmick and you pay for it in one way or another.
Yes but I actually much prefer that cost to be included in the list price compared to sellers trying to hide part of the purchase price in inflated shipping costs.
Yes but I actually much prefer that cost to be included in the list price compared to sellers trying to hide part of the purchase price in inflated shipping costs.
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Downvoted? I mean heißt true. People buying there have created this monster.
As have regulators who continue to allow it to exist.
And competition who refuses to offer comparable services to entice customers.
And competition who refuses to offer comparable services to entice customers.
That doesn't change the fact that you are still responsible if you shop there...
A big company can create value though, as an arbiter of quality like Sears was. Sears was a logistics company that offered push-button value for commodities much like Amazon basics. I think that before their economic philosophy was ruined(long story short one of the managers was a big fan of inter-departmental competition, same thing what killed RCA). Perhaps the problem here is America lacks a Sears option, save for Wal-mart, which doesn't offer the same quality. I think the middle class would benefit from a catalog offering push-button quality options, but such a thing does not exist, perhaps Sears undid themselves by making items that would last decades (still using all the power tools they made in the 90s and 2000s, and some of the clothes/blankets too)
Do you have any examples of big companies that still make quality products and prioritize that quality/support over growth/revenue?
I want to believe, I try to spend my money where I think it matters, but it just seems so pointless at the scale of Amazon, BP, Comcast, etc.
I want to believe, I try to spend my money where I think it matters, but it just seems so pointless at the scale of Amazon, BP, Comcast, etc.
The ones I'd say have high quality are usually "retreating upmarket" to combat fast fashion like zara or shein. I recently bought a coat from H&M that was fairly nice and seems like it will last quite a while, obviously priced to be that way. In terms of homewares, design within reach/Williams Sonoma seem to be the ones for durability. The only problem as you've likely noticed is these stores almost have "too much" variety, likely due to them fragmenting along specialization lines. The beauty of Sears was it's range, that it had almost everything, I'll link a catalog below, it has everything from standard dad-tools to survey gear, I don't think I've ever seen another retail store get this close to McMaster Carr.
https://archive.org/details/SearsCraftsmanPowerAndHandTools1...
https://archive.org/details/SearsCraftsmanPowerAndHandTools1...
What makes you think your view represents the needs of the customer? The "needs of the market" may just be the absolute rock bottom price, shipped as fast as possible, with an easy return policy. While I agree this article highlights a problem, it feels more like the needs of businesses which is being solved well by Shopify, something the author hits at
Walmart is big enough to take on Amazon. B&N is no small fry either in the book business. That's what sytelus is complaining about. They (maybe) could do something that is beneficial to the customer and get an edge on Amazon, but they don't.
There may be some youngsters who don't know who Cliff Stoll is.
He wrote "The Cuckoo's Egg" which is a riveting tale, capable of entertaining nerds and non-nerds alike.
He sells glass Klein Bottles, huge, medium, tiny, earrings, and more.
He's given a TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk
He's brilliant, bonkers, and wonderful company. I spent a fantastic morning with him early last year (2024) and it was brilliant fun. I will for many, many years treasure my signed Klein Bottle and my signed copy of "The Cuckoo's Egg".
Thanks Cliff
He wrote "The Cuckoo's Egg" which is a riveting tale, capable of entertaining nerds and non-nerds alike.
He sells glass Klein Bottles, huge, medium, tiny, earrings, and more.
He's given a TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk
He's brilliant, bonkers, and wonderful company. I spent a fantastic morning with him early last year (2024) and it was brilliant fun. I will for many, many years treasure my signed Klein Bottle and my signed copy of "The Cuckoo's Egg".
Thanks Cliff
Reading his book as a kid was what got me into computers and networks. After some years I finally got a few of his bottles as gifts for my various mentors along the way (plus one for my desk as well.) He's a special human. I didn't know about the TED Talk; thanks, I'll check that out!
You're welcome, Colin! Across the decades, I appreciate the smiles and advice from Hacker News. How'd I ever reach 75 years old?
You're only 10 years older than me, and I'm hoping to be as active and engaged as you are for a long time to come ... you are a fantastic role model, especially with your interaction with, and inspiration of, the younger generation.
Long may it continue, and I hope to take you up on your invitation to visit again.
Long may it continue, and I hope to take you up on your invitation to visit again.
It's for reasons like this people ask "what happened to regulatory oversight" because at this point, entities who occupy this much of the space appear to be essentially unregulated.
It's trading under false premises. It's misleading conduct. It's oligopoly. The sherman laws were designed for this surely?
I could say the same about appeals to google, apple, anyone for account recovery too.
It's trading under false premises. It's misleading conduct. It's oligopoly. The sherman laws were designed for this surely?
I could say the same about appeals to google, apple, anyone for account recovery too.
The "Acme Klein Bottle Wine Bottle" is incredible. It strongly reminds me of Jacques Carelman's "Catalogue d'objets introuvables" (1969) [translated as "Catalog of fantastic things", 1971 by Ballantine Books in New York].
As wikipedia states:
> Carelman is best known for his Catalog of fantastic things (Catalogue d'objets introuvables) also known as Catalogue of Unfindable Objects, made in 1969 as a parody of the catalog of the French mail order company Manufrance. This work has been translated into 19 languages (including Korean, Hebrew and Finnish). Among these imaginary objects are, for instance, a "Kangaroo gun" whose "barrel is extensively studied ... to give the bullet a sinusoidal trajectory which follows the animal in its leaps", or a disposable "Plaster anvil ... (sold by the dozen) to be discarded after use, allowing you to make substantial savings." The most famous item in this catalog was Carelman's "Coffeepot for Masochists", a coffeepot with a backwards facing spout that would scald the user. This design became a symbol for the critique of everyday things and was featured on the cover of Don Norman's book on the topic, The Design of Everyday Things.
(I didn't make the connection with Don Norman's book, another, more serious, classic).
As wikipedia states:
> Carelman is best known for his Catalog of fantastic things (Catalogue d'objets introuvables) also known as Catalogue of Unfindable Objects, made in 1969 as a parody of the catalog of the French mail order company Manufrance. This work has been translated into 19 languages (including Korean, Hebrew and Finnish). Among these imaginary objects are, for instance, a "Kangaroo gun" whose "barrel is extensively studied ... to give the bullet a sinusoidal trajectory which follows the animal in its leaps", or a disposable "Plaster anvil ... (sold by the dozen) to be discarded after use, allowing you to make substantial savings." The most famous item in this catalog was Carelman's "Coffeepot for Masochists", a coffeepot with a backwards facing spout that would scald the user. This design became a symbol for the critique of everyday things and was featured on the cover of Don Norman's book on the topic, The Design of Everyday Things.
(I didn't make the connection with Don Norman's book, another, more serious, classic).
I honestly think sites like stockx where they open the package and verify before shipping it forward will overtake amazon despite the increased costs. Absolutely not invested in stockx in any way, just an opinion that was formed as follows;
Amazon was built on trust. I bought a book from them in the early days. It didn’t arrive after 2 weeks and they said ‘we believe you’ and they shipped me the book again at no charge. A week later i got 2 books, the first was lost in transit. Contacted amazon and they and no problem keep both and give one to a friend. I and many others were loyal to amazon after these experiences, paying more due to the lack of hassle and high trust. They became the default online bookstore thanks to this trust. It wasn’t even worth price comparisons, you looked on amazon and bought it there knowing you’d get the product you paid for.
That’s now gone. They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point. You’re likely to be shipped a box of rocks rather than what you wanted at this point.
People are willing to pay more for trust and the lack of hassle it represents. I want to buy a hard cover book that’s well printed. If i keep getting poor photocopies on tissue paper the trust is gone. I'll happy pay more to buy from a site where that never happens. I won’t even bother with price shopping when one site is a good chance of a scam and the other isn’t. In fact i’m pretty sure that’s where amazons dominance as the default online store came from and i’m shocked at how little care they have for this fact.
Amazon was built on trust. I bought a book from them in the early days. It didn’t arrive after 2 weeks and they said ‘we believe you’ and they shipped me the book again at no charge. A week later i got 2 books, the first was lost in transit. Contacted amazon and they and no problem keep both and give one to a friend. I and many others were loyal to amazon after these experiences, paying more due to the lack of hassle and high trust. They became the default online bookstore thanks to this trust. It wasn’t even worth price comparisons, you looked on amazon and bought it there knowing you’d get the product you paid for.
That’s now gone. They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point. You’re likely to be shipped a box of rocks rather than what you wanted at this point.
People are willing to pay more for trust and the lack of hassle it represents. I want to buy a hard cover book that’s well printed. If i keep getting poor photocopies on tissue paper the trust is gone. I'll happy pay more to buy from a site where that never happens. I won’t even bother with price shopping when one site is a good chance of a scam and the other isn’t. In fact i’m pretty sure that’s where amazons dominance as the default online store came from and i’m shocked at how little care they have for this fact.
> They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point. You’re likely to be shipped a box of rocks rather than what you wanted at this point.
Between eBay and Amazon over the years I’ve done thousands of transactions, including probably 100 as a seller on eBay. The way people on HN talk about these companies, you’d think I would have been victim to endless amounts of fraud. In reality, both companies have handled the rare issues that came up just fine for me and the vast majority of transactions were perfectly fine.
The HN comment section version of Amazon is pure hyperbole at this point.
I’m aware that there are problems and some people haven’t been as lucky, but do you honestly believe you’re more likely to get a box of rocks than the product you ordered? Or that people will pay large fees to have average products verified before shipping when Amazon takes returns all the time? This is just silly.
Between eBay and Amazon over the years I’ve done thousands of transactions, including probably 100 as a seller on eBay. The way people on HN talk about these companies, you’d think I would have been victim to endless amounts of fraud. In reality, both companies have handled the rare issues that came up just fine for me and the vast majority of transactions were perfectly fine.
The HN comment section version of Amazon is pure hyperbole at this point.
I’m aware that there are problems and some people haven’t been as lucky, but do you honestly believe you’re more likely to get a box of rocks than the product you ordered? Or that people will pay large fees to have average products verified before shipping when Amazon takes returns all the time? This is just silly.
Agreed. To add to this I often buy warehouse deals which is an order of magnitude more risky and the percentage of returns I've had to do is in the low single digits. Almost always it's an obviously brand new never opened product.
I’ve never had a problem with buying on eBay, but I have received counterfeit products from Amazon. In one case, it was an electronic gadget that was using a counterfeit chip, so the real drivers wouldn’t work. They did nothing to remedy the situation. Customer service didn’t even understand what my problem was.
It wasn't a USB to RS232 converter was it? Those are notorious for the knock-offs filling the market and not working with the "real" driver.
> They did nothing to remedy the situation. Customer service didn’t even understand what my problem was.
I don't understand. If I want to return an Amazon product for any reason I just return it. You don't have to explain the driver situation to customer support.
This is what I'm talking about when I say internet comments feel like people are operating in a different world: If you get a counterfeit product from Amazon, you just return it.
You can even return a product if you just decide you don't want it.
I don't understand. If I want to return an Amazon product for any reason I just return it. You don't have to explain the driver situation to customer support.
This is what I'm talking about when I say internet comments feel like people are operating in a different world: If you get a counterfeit product from Amazon, you just return it.
You can even return a product if you just decide you don't want it.
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It's not just those incidences though. I think many people have had bad experiences from buying on amazon. Even the shopping process (and this may be the bulk of bad perception) is atrocious. They have a brand filter that is littered with knock off and unknown brands (most I suspect are Chinese). They refuse to include a country of origin filter. We all know why. Reviews have been fake for years, some sellers do little to hide that they've swapped the product on the page to get top rankings for a new product. Product: a plastic step ladder, the reviews: "these bath bombs are so lovely!" Shipping and delivery speed has fallen off for people outside metro areas. Congrats on the vans I guess? Combine that with tertiary problems like scalping, forgery, and lower quality garbage from China, and then fly celebrities into space with subsequent vacuous VSCO-girl like philosophical statements, and its fairly clear why someone's opinion of amazon might be bad. Not to mention their exceedingly poor performance with Prime video. I understand hyperbole is rampant online, but let's maybe agree that water is wet when it is.
Yeah, I only have good experiences on eBay. Just recently I needed to buy something and found it cheaper than on Amazon (most products I buy on eBay are free shipping - I don't have Amazon Prime).
I have had an increasing number of missing/wrong/broken items with Amazon. So far no problem getting them replaced/refunded though so its still a better customer experience than smaller stores.
Personally, I don’t get anything for more than $50 from Amazon, and, usually, not even that.
Amazon used to have the best prices, but that is no longer the case. Just a couple of weeks ago, I needed to get bulk cat food (for a bulky cat). I tried Amazon, but they wanted double what I would pay at chewy. So I got it from chewy, and will never look at Amazon for that kind of thing again.
I also tend to go directly to manufacturer Web sites, and order from there. The price is seldom much higher than Amazon, and I won’t have to worry that I’m getting a fake, or gray market junk.
Amazon used to have the best prices, but that is no longer the case. Just a couple of weeks ago, I needed to get bulk cat food (for a bulky cat). I tried Amazon, but they wanted double what I would pay at chewy. So I got it from chewy, and will never look at Amazon for that kind of thing again.
I also tend to go directly to manufacturer Web sites, and order from there. The price is seldom much higher than Amazon, and I won’t have to worry that I’m getting a fake, or gray market junk.
Seems more mixed for me. Yes, Amazon is not guaranteed to be the cheapest so it pays to compare prices fro non-trivial items but often enough Amazon will still be the cheapest for me.
Also, grey market products aren't junk - they are by definition the official product just without the price gouging the manufacturer does in locales where they can get away with it.
Also, grey market products aren't junk - they are by definition the official product just without the price gouging the manufacturer does in locales where they can get away with it.
…or the support.
F’rinstance, get a Chinese webcam, and find the latest download.
Also, there’s some controversy over the privacy in Chinese products (but it’s easy enough to make the same argument about almost any brand).
I have found that Chinese versions of products make up the largest percentage of gray market stuff. I suspect that some percentage of that, is outright fakes.
F’rinstance, get a Chinese webcam, and find the latest download.
Also, there’s some controversy over the privacy in Chinese products (but it’s easy enough to make the same argument about almost any brand).
I have found that Chinese versions of products make up the largest percentage of gray market stuff. I suspect that some percentage of that, is outright fakes.
YMMV but I have never found manufacturer support useful for anything.
I use it all the time; especially firmware downloads.
> They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point.
Overall I have a higher level of trust in Ebay purchases than Amazon purchases.
Overall I have a higher level of trust in Ebay purchases than Amazon purchases.
There's absolutely no trust anymore. Apparently when you pre-order an item, you'll actually be the last to receive it because they'd rather guarantee next-day delivery for people buying on launch day. Apparently your delivery can be delayed by multiple months in this case. Apparently customer support might tell you to cancel the order and re-place it to fix this and they'll refund the price difference due to price increase. Apparently the next guy will say they pulled up the chatlog and they never promised any refund for any price difference and to please go away. Apparently you might have to waste months complaining to national authorities with screenshots for them to finally get word that they should look into your case for more than 15 seconds and finally honor a simple 150€ refund on a 2000€+ order...
> If i keep getting poor photocopies on tissue paper the trust is gone.
I'm curious, since I never get these (90% of the time I'm buying used anyways). Do you know what genre has this the worst?
I'm curious, since I never get these (90% of the time I'm buying used anyways). Do you know what genre has this the worst?
It's certainly degraded and I have to sift through a lot of junk but I find it's still pretty easy to identify the grift/counterfeiters/etc. I've never had a problem with returns. It's generally easy to initiate, there have been a few random high dollar purchases $500-$1000 that I didn't even notice were flagged as "no refunds" at time of purchase, but if I get on chat they have always made exception and allowed me to return it. The only annoying part is every time I do that, finding the chat feature takes me a good deal of time it's so buried in the UI
I don't buy a lot of books though so maybe that's where a lot of this is coming from?
I don't buy a lot of books though so maybe that's where a lot of this is coming from?
> They have fallen to ebay levels of trust at this point
Strongly disagree. I have always gotten refunds on Amazon when there were issues whereas on eBay I had sellers run away with my money when they knew that pursuing legal action would cost me more than the dispute amount and eBay doing nothing.
Strongly disagree. I have always gotten refunds on Amazon when there were issues whereas on eBay I had sellers run away with my money when they knew that pursuing legal action would cost me more than the dispute amount and eBay doing nothing.
This stuff seems to keep happening and the problem seems to be that it is ungovernable. How is someone supposed to fight this if they are not half as famous as Cliff?
Take them to small claims court for each violation.
Small claims is such a huge headache, though. It's far more expensive for anyone person than the company.
First time - when you learning all the details - may be. But it wasn't that bad. I represented myself vs insurance company with the lawyer. I did not get full claim amount, and could do better, but I got more than what insurance wanted to settle for.
I’m not sure it’s wise to fuck with the legal department of a trillion dollar company even if you’re in the right.
Bezos is thankfully not Elon, he won’t seek vengeance on you for literal nickels and dimes.
No, but making an example of you isn’t a bad business move.
Maybe he just do not advertise how vicious he is on twitter. It does not mean that he is not vicious. Probably is, like every other rich person. You are not getting rich by being kind.
"Don't fight back when we fuck you or we'll ruin you".
The bigger the company, the heavier the penalties for fuckery should be. They should be the ones to live in fear, not the "little people".
The bigger the company, the heavier the penalties for fuckery should be. They should be the ones to live in fear, not the "little people".
While I agree with you, good luck lobbying for that one.
Take who to small claims court? Amazon?
Yes. They no-show and you get a default judgement.
Why would they no-show?
They're far more likely to throw a couple hundred bucks at a local lawyer to show up.
They're far more likely to throw a couple hundred bucks at a local lawyer to show up.
In some jurisdictions lawyers are not allowed in small claims court.
In many of those, the defendant can say "but I want one", and have it removed to real court.
Using your infinite time and money for legal representation to run a large number of legal cases in parallel?
Time and money, sure. But small claims in many (most? all?) regions are specifically designed to not require a lawyer. I think in some you specifically can’t bring one.
In most yeah, you need a special dispensation, and you probably just want normal civil court stuff then - its kinda the point of small claims to not need all the extra stuff.
Please cite a single example of that ever solving this problem.
Ianal, but afaik small claims are for purely money claims. I.e. you have to prove to judge/jury exact amount of your loss. It works well in case of fighting over debt. But more abstract damages are likely outside courts jurisdiction...
On the other hand... It is cheap to try and see what happens, as long as expectations are right.
On the other hand... It is cheap to try and see what happens, as long as expectations are right.
I don't remember why I looked this up in Washington state, USA a while back (bad work by a plumber, I think) but here in WA I think there's also a rule/law that you can only take individuals to small claims court.
There's also a dollar limit ($4,000? Maybe 15 years ago?).
But yeah, by law you can't drag companies into small claims court. It's meant to settle minor things like your neighbor accidentally backing into (and damaging) your fence, etc.
There's also a dollar limit ($4,000? Maybe 15 years ago?).
But yeah, by law you can't drag companies into small claims court. It's meant to settle minor things like your neighbor accidentally backing into (and damaging) your fence, etc.
10k limit in WA, and you definitely can sue businesses/corps in small claims.
That's the "This is the hill I die on" approach. From all the lawyers (family) I've talked to, this is such a massively large money and time sink, regardless of outcome, that you should never do it, even if it means fraud goes unchecked.
Even small claims?
Right, that's what I was told...
I'd love to have a lawyer chime in and say "Go for it, it's easy and it improves accountability" though. Like if it only took a day and $100 it'd probably be worth it to me, regardless of the outcome.
I'd love to have a lawyer chime in and say "Go for it, it's easy and it improves accountability" though. Like if it only took a day and $100 it'd probably be worth it to me, regardless of the outcome.
I took a business to small claims over a $1500 invoice they decided they weren't going to pay. It took a year before I was in court, the judge decided in my favor, and I had to schedule a sheriff's sale because the bully I was dealing with refused to acknowledge that they lost.
I did get paid in the end, and there was the satisfaction of sticking it to a bully, but financially, it was not worth the effort.
I did get paid in the end, and there was the satisfaction of sticking it to a bully, but financially, it was not worth the effort.
*for the first violation after which they refuse to do business with you.
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My prime subscription expires this week. Perhaps the correct response to this systemic incompetence is to simply no longer give them money.
I dropped mine because frankly, you don't get much from it anymore. Pricing is often identical and frankly, you can just go to the store's site and 99% of the time get the same price
Look for other suppliers. For everything I'm interested in I can find some small shop that has real reviews and advice. it takes a little effort to find them but they know their product and so it is worth finding them-
I do mostly but off Amazon but that doesn't mean I don't understand that until more people do this these brands still have to be on amazon. You're kinda missing the point
What is the point? How do you think people should fight back against this?
Legislation, imo
Legislation is sometimes the only answer, but there are many unintended consequences to every attempt and so I consider it a last resort to be used carefully only when you must.
Fame, alas, is of little use when you're a tiny seller. Indeed, Amazon's brand registry and seller interaction systems are built to minimize human interactions.
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I'm sorry they did this to you. But you're famous in my book. Not just because the bottles either!
if these comments are any indication, our inability to handle mild inconvenience and a lifetime of consumerist conditioning are the real reasons amazon can continue to get away with being cartoonishly awful.
I get it, there's a lot of crap in life and sometimes it seems like it's just not worth the hassle to make something a bit unpleasant for the sake of your principles when there's crap at work and the mortgage is due and timmy is failing english class again but they will not stop unless being shitty starts hurting their business and we cannot count on the captured regulators to do that on our behalf.
I get it, there's a lot of crap in life and sometimes it seems like it's just not worth the hassle to make something a bit unpleasant for the sake of your principles when there's crap at work and the mortgage is due and timmy is failing english class again but they will not stop unless being shitty starts hurting their business and we cannot count on the captured regulators to do that on our behalf.
This frames it as a failing of consumers.
It’s not that we don’t have an inability to deal with small inconveniences; we haven’t the time and resources to compete with those who are faster because they tolerate monopolies and anticompetitive actors.
It’s not that we don’t have an inability to deal with small inconveniences; we haven’t the time and resources to compete with those who are faster because they tolerate monopolies and anticompetitive actors.
all it takes is not shopping at amazon. now, obviously, if by some awful twist of fate, amazon is the only place to buy your life-preserving medications or whatever (God forbid things ever get that dystopian in my lifetime) then my advice is silly and you should ignore it. but if someone needs some household good or even some foodstuff that only amazon has or that amazon sells cheaper than the other places, then it's time to suck it up and not get your (the general you, not you personally) favorite brand of rocky road ice-cream bars or that brand of soap that you love.
I reckon in the first world, there is nothing that amazon sells that we can't simply skip or get somewhere else that would leave anybody in danger of death or serious injury.
I know it's tre chic to wallow in helplessness wrt certain things these days but we aren't yet completely without recourse even if we aren't going to buy our way into an entirely new order any time soon.
I reckon in the first world, there is nothing that amazon sells that we can't simply skip or get somewhere else that would leave anybody in danger of death or serious injury.
I know it's tre chic to wallow in helplessness wrt certain things these days but we aren't yet completely without recourse even if we aren't going to buy our way into an entirely new order any time soon.
It’s not a matter of chic. Amazon has more things, delivered faster, than anyone else in most markets. If you don’t use them, you waste huge amounts of time that you would otherwise save.
They have completely replaced all other retail for me. Reverting that would cost me 3-5 hours a week.
They have completely replaced all other retail for me. Reverting that would cost me 3-5 hours a week.
You could also say all it takes is a competitors to actually start competing. And by that I mean offering a better product and service, not also turning them into money printing "marketplaces" selling chinese crapware which is what they are doing instead, except without the remaining customer service guarantees that Amazon hasn't yet gotten rid off.
Or all it takes is regulatory agencies to wake up. After all, preventing the tragedy of the commons is their entire reason for existence. In fact, it's the only reason we give away a large chunk of our income in taxes.
Or all it takes is regulatory agencies to wake up. After all, preventing the tragedy of the commons is their entire reason for existence. In fact, it's the only reason we give away a large chunk of our income in taxes.
If you haven't bought a Klein Bottle from Cliff I strongly encourage you to do so. He is a treasure.
//(blush)//
Cliff is awesome. The care and effort he shows rivals most Etsy sellers. (I have a Klein mug and gifted several more.)
I loved all the extras he puts in with his orders.
I imagine him as someone who just sits around hacking all day, writing up long essays in between fulfilling orders.
I imagine him as someone who just sits around hacking all day, writing up long essays in between fulfilling orders.
Thanks, Resistor-burner!
I have fun with every Klein bottle order. When someone buys a Klein bottle, I celebrate by walking through our backyard garden, looking for new blossoms. I usually take a few photos and send these to my customer-friend.
This micro business puts me in touch with fascinating people (I've met kids in elementary school, grad students, Nobel laureates, even a delightful nut who made a 4-meter tall wooden Klein bottle for Burning Man). The kind of people you find here on Hacker News.
PS - with reference to your HN identity -- from my ham radio days of long ago, I once experimentally determined that a 1/2 watt, 600 ohm Ohmite resistor would burn up when inserted in a 120V outlet. Hmmm: 24 watts into a half-watt resistor? Yep, filled the room with that acrid smell... Don't try this at home.I opened up a ticket to get it resolved and after 6 months it was closed because there's no logs available to confirm the issue.
Brand hijacking got to be so bad with so many sellers complaining that Amazon finally did something about it ... kind of. Quoting an Amazon employee in the Seller Central forum:
If you have experienced an incorrect change in the brand name of an ASIN, please exhaust these self-service options below first:
- Create a case to Seller Support
- Public Notice Form if you are not registered in Brand Registry
- Report Abuse
- Report a Violation (if you are registered in Brand Registry)
For a normal company, one would expect that a single report using any of these methods would be enough to launch an investigation and right the wrong. Nope.
I don't know if it's Amazon's poorly designed automated seller support, or overwhelmed support staff unable to deal with the problem, but regardless the burden is on sellers to "exhaust" all of these options before posting a semi-public plea for help on the Seller Central forums. This apparently will trigger an actual investigation (https://sellercentral.amazon.com/seller-forums/discussions/t...).
If you have experienced an incorrect change in the brand name of an ASIN, please exhaust these self-service options below first:
- Create a case to Seller Support
- Public Notice Form if you are not registered in Brand Registry
- Report Abuse
- Report a Violation (if you are registered in Brand Registry)
For a normal company, one would expect that a single report using any of these methods would be enough to launch an investigation and right the wrong. Nope.
I don't know if it's Amazon's poorly designed automated seller support, or overwhelmed support staff unable to deal with the problem, but regardless the burden is on sellers to "exhaust" all of these options before posting a semi-public plea for help on the Seller Central forums. This apparently will trigger an actual investigation (https://sellercentral.amazon.com/seller-forums/discussions/t...).
whoever would do this to cliff stoll is the actual devil
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Looks like those Chinese scammers turned that Klein Bottle store…
…inside out.
wail sound, puts on sunglasses
…inside out.
wail sound, puts on sunglasses
Reddit-tier trash comment.
Can we please just not turn every online discussion into a melange of puns, memes, pop-culture references and AI slop?
Can we please just not turn every online discussion into a melange of puns, memes, pop-culture references and AI slop?
Another idiotic policy by Amazon to motivate me to use small sellers even when available on the Amazon storefront
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I tried to move my purchases to Walmart and surprisingly, even after 25 years, they haven’t got act together. Walmart even haven’t recognized that they should jump on this problem by prominently showing authentic brand logo or something.
I also tried to move all my books purchasing to B&N and again, surprisingly, they haven’t learned any real lesson in past 25 years. Their website is clunky, they charge $7 delivery fee, they can’t even deliver to my nearest their own shop for free!
Amazon is definitely riding on this utterly deficient competitors and that’s why they get to be so complacent.