We just launched a new invoicing web app for under 10K. Check it out: Ballpark(getballpark.com)
getballpark.com
We just launched a new invoicing web app for under 10K. Check it out: Ballpark
http://getballpark.com/
62 comments
Yeah, SSL costs in total $30 a year, for all customers. No company should be reckless with customer information, regardless of the tier they purchase.
Only charge for things that actually cost you time or money, otherwise your customers will feel ripped off.
Only charge for things that actually cost you time or money, otherwise your customers will feel ripped off.
Only charge for things that actually cost you time or money
I can't agree with that. I charge money for software, which is free at the margin. My customers don't feel ripped off about it, because their time is not.
The worry with SSL is the security implication (particularly for people who had no option to say "Please treat my data as non-sensitive! I totally don't mind!"), not the fact that the code is making an arbitrary distinction between user classes despite the cost to the company being the same for all users (essentially nothing at the margin).
I can't agree with that. I charge money for software, which is free at the margin. My customers don't feel ripped off about it, because their time is not.
The worry with SSL is the security implication (particularly for people who had no option to say "Please treat my data as non-sensitive! I totally don't mind!"), not the fact that the code is making an arbitrary distinction between user classes despite the cost to the company being the same for all users (essentially nothing at the margin).
Sorry, I guess I didn't say that right.
I meant that you shouldn't charge for things that customers have the perception of being free to you. People don't seem to like that. A customer will think "Oh, more invoices if I pay X dollars more!" and that's tangible. Those are physical invoices stored somewhere.
But when you try to charge for something stupid like the ability to change colors or something, that seems to make people angry. I've done user testing with payment tiers, and whenever someone asks "Why does this cost more? That's stupid" they immediately have a bad taste in their mouth about the product. And that's a first impression before they have even started to use it.
I meant that you shouldn't charge for things that customers have the perception of being free to you. People don't seem to like that. A customer will think "Oh, more invoices if I pay X dollars more!" and that's tangible. Those are physical invoices stored somewhere.
But when you try to charge for something stupid like the ability to change colors or something, that seems to make people angry. I've done user testing with payment tiers, and whenever someone asks "Why does this cost more? That's stupid" they immediately have a bad taste in their mouth about the product. And that's a first impression before they have even started to use it.
SSL isn't necessarily $30 / year total, there's the extra load of encrypting/decrypting all SSL traffic as well. That may be negligible, I don't know.
These days it's pretty negligible, at least in my experience. If you every get to the point where the SSL handling CPU load is a problem, you're driving a TON of traffic and hopefully can afford another box or two, or an F5 to off-load the SSL.
I've been involved with some REALLY big sites, and SSL didn't really impact performance at all.
I've been involved with some REALLY big sites, and SSL didn't really impact performance at all.
First thing that hit me was "wow great design." I actually am looking for a designer for my next project. Could I contact you/metalabs about it?
Disclaimer: I'm the author of http://www.roninapp.com (also an invoicing app)
The designer for ballpark is definitely top-notch - the folks over at metalabs are good at what they do. Keeping invoicing sexy is something that is hard to do (but we're trying our best as well!)
Congrats on the launch - I'm sure the folks over at FreshBooks (who are the obvious market leaders) are taking notice at all these invoicing/time-tracking apps hitting the market (cashboard, invoicemachine, letsfreckle, among others). It certainly speaks for how far we've come in Rapid Development and how accessible good UX/design has become.
The designer for ballpark is definitely top-notch - the folks over at metalabs are good at what they do. Keeping invoicing sexy is something that is hard to do (but we're trying our best as well!)
Congrats on the launch - I'm sure the folks over at FreshBooks (who are the obvious market leaders) are taking notice at all these invoicing/time-tracking apps hitting the market (cashboard, invoicemachine, letsfreckle, among others). It certainly speaks for how far we've come in Rapid Development and how accessible good UX/design has become.
Ronin looks cool! We're glad to have some solid competition, and FreshBooks could really use some.
Hey Andrew, Lu,
We do take notice. It's good to see a lot of other apps come into the market with different ideas and approaches. It's definitely no good to end up in a market of one.
P.S. Andrew, it's too bad we didn't hook up when I was out in Victoria last summer. Are you coming to Toronto any time soon, by any chance?
Lu, similarly, I was just in SFO in January but I didn't reach out. My bad. Next time I'm down, shall we have a beer?
-- Sunir, Chief Handshaker, FreshBooks
We do take notice. It's good to see a lot of other apps come into the market with different ideas and approaches. It's definitely no good to end up in a market of one.
P.S. Andrew, it's too bad we didn't hook up when I was out in Victoria last summer. Are you coming to Toronto any time soon, by any chance?
Lu, similarly, I was just in SFO in January but I didn't reach out. My bad. Next time I'm down, shall we have a beer?
-- Sunir, Chief Handshaker, FreshBooks
I'm so impressed by that whole conversation between competitors. I'm speechless. Best of luck to all of you...
Hey Sunir,
I'm not planning to, but fire me an email ([email protected]) so I can get your contact info. I'd love to get a coffee sometime.
-Andrew
I'm not planning to, but fire me an email ([email protected]) so I can get your contact info. I'd love to get a coffee sometime.
-Andrew
Looks a lot like campaignmonitor.com.
Not really, I think this layout is just very common for apps like these.
I'm sure he knew that, given how http://userfly.com looks - the layout is pretty much a de facto standard.
I think cte is pointing out specifically the color scheme and buttons, etc.
I think cte is pointing out specifically the color scheme and buttons, etc.
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btw, MetaLab designed the http://280slides.com landing page (not 280slides itself though) and http://280north.com
The same goes here. First word "WOW", then in my head "Nice design".
Agreed. I don't need the product but I would hire that designer.
Heh, too funny. I was thinking the same thing - nice design.
For the record, this was going to be the title but it didn't fit:
"The small company I work with, Metalab, has just launched a new estimating and invoicing web app for under 10k with no VC. It's called Ballpark, check it out."
Thanks for the comments on the design, all of the credit for that goes to the main Metalab guy, Andrew Wilkinson, see more here http://www.metalabdesign.com
"The small company I work with, Metalab, has just launched a new estimating and invoicing web app for under 10k with no VC. It's called Ballpark, check it out."
Thanks for the comments on the design, all of the credit for that goes to the main Metalab guy, Andrew Wilkinson, see more here http://www.metalabdesign.com
amazing portfolio site. Any suggestions on best way to learn your style of design/javascript?
i really like their style too. it looks like they use mootools and jquery for most of the javascript effects, and as far as the look goes... you could play around with PNGs, bevels, gradients, and strokes to get a similar style.
Unfortunately more attention has been drawn to the design of your site than its functionality.
While the design is great and you have all the reason to be proud of it, the long term success of your business will tie mostly, if not all, to the functionality rather than design.
While the design is great and you have all the reason to be proud of it, the long term success of your business will tie mostly, if not all, to the functionality rather than design.
As someone with a site with mediocre design, first impressions mean a lot.
I read a lot into a design. It tells me how professional the people I'm dealing with are. It tells me if they're enterprise droids or if they're working with small customers too.
We'll be either doing a new one ourselves or paying for one soon.
I read a lot into a design. It tells me how professional the people I'm dealing with are. It tells me if they're enterprise droids or if they're working with small customers too.
We'll be either doing a new one ourselves or paying for one soon.
This is Andrew from MetaLab. I just wanted to say thanks for all the compliments on the design. I hope that you guys will take it for a spin and let us know what you think.
Quoted from cominatchu: "The 'under 10k' price tag is misleading because it does not include the opportunity cost of the web designers time. In other words, one has to calculate (the hours spent by Metalab web designers * their normal hourly rate) and add this to 10k to arrive at a more accurate cost for building this site."
Yes, we really did build it for less than $10k. Our key expenses were: Rails development (1 developer a few hours a week), a SliceHost server, and some custom icons we hired out. We're planning to break it down in more detail on our blog in the next little while, but I'd like to debunk this a bit here. You're absolutely right about the cost being higher if you consider what it would normally cost at a full consulting rate, but I feel like that's kind of fallacious logic:
If you learnt how to woodwork, built a bookshelf, then told your friends that it cost you $15 (the price of the wood and a couple of screws), they aren't going to argue that the true cost was $500 (the hours spent learning woodworking or a carpenter's rate).
If a founder who was an incredible programmer paid himself $1,000/month during the early months of his startup, would you say that his time really cost the company $15,000 (what he would have charged at a consulting rate)?
The point isn't that someone with no technical skills can do this for 10k (after all, this is Hacker News, and I assume most of you are highly skilled in the field), we're just pointing out that we managed to create a business by pulling a few extra hours a week over 6 months. We didn't have to quit our day jobs, move to the valley, or build a board of advisors - we just went ahead and built it. This isn't to say that it's an especially complex app or that it is some sort of technical feat, just that a little bit of money went a long way.
I don't think taking funding is always bad or anything, especially small seed funding like YC. Sometimes advantageous ideas need money to make them happen. The point is that most of you already have many of the skills required to build things, so funding really shouldn't be a barrier to entry. If your idea requires more money than you have, boil it down to the bare minimum and build it within your budget. We could easily have decided that we wanted to build the best invoicing app ever, figured out that invoicing was a 1.3 kagillion dollar industry, secured some funding, built up the stakes, then gone crazy with features. We could have convinced ourselves that we needed to close down our consulting business, hire a full-time Rails developer, and move in together. Instead we took a simple idea that we felt wasn't being done right, boiled it down to its core, then built it when we had the time.
Quoted from cominatchu: "The 'under 10k' price tag is misleading because it does not include the opportunity cost of the web designers time. In other words, one has to calculate (the hours spent by Metalab web designers * their normal hourly rate) and add this to 10k to arrive at a more accurate cost for building this site."
Yes, we really did build it for less than $10k. Our key expenses were: Rails development (1 developer a few hours a week), a SliceHost server, and some custom icons we hired out. We're planning to break it down in more detail on our blog in the next little while, but I'd like to debunk this a bit here. You're absolutely right about the cost being higher if you consider what it would normally cost at a full consulting rate, but I feel like that's kind of fallacious logic:
If you learnt how to woodwork, built a bookshelf, then told your friends that it cost you $15 (the price of the wood and a couple of screws), they aren't going to argue that the true cost was $500 (the hours spent learning woodworking or a carpenter's rate).
If a founder who was an incredible programmer paid himself $1,000/month during the early months of his startup, would you say that his time really cost the company $15,000 (what he would have charged at a consulting rate)?
The point isn't that someone with no technical skills can do this for 10k (after all, this is Hacker News, and I assume most of you are highly skilled in the field), we're just pointing out that we managed to create a business by pulling a few extra hours a week over 6 months. We didn't have to quit our day jobs, move to the valley, or build a board of advisors - we just went ahead and built it. This isn't to say that it's an especially complex app or that it is some sort of technical feat, just that a little bit of money went a long way.
I don't think taking funding is always bad or anything, especially small seed funding like YC. Sometimes advantageous ideas need money to make them happen. The point is that most of you already have many of the skills required to build things, so funding really shouldn't be a barrier to entry. If your idea requires more money than you have, boil it down to the bare minimum and build it within your budget. We could easily have decided that we wanted to build the best invoicing app ever, figured out that invoicing was a 1.3 kagillion dollar industry, secured some funding, built up the stakes, then gone crazy with features. We could have convinced ourselves that we needed to close down our consulting business, hire a full-time Rails developer, and move in together. Instead we took a simple idea that we felt wasn't being done right, boiled it down to its core, then built it when we had the time.
You should have the pricing plans oriented to the top instead of the bottom. Because I want to look at "estimates" and look over to the other pricing plans to compare; with your format, the "estimate" is at a different eye level.
This is an excellent point, we will fix this.
The UI is great, love the simplicity, but I really don't want to use Paypal for anything. Freshbooks mails me a check or hooks up to any payment gateway I want to use, meaning I don't shell out for Paypal's fees. I'm also not seeing what this is doing that Freshbooks is not, other then having a nicer UI.
I think the key differentiation is the fact that Ballpark is built for teams. This might not resonate with freelancers (who might just use it because it works well and looks pretty), but, in most small businesses, more than one person is usually involved in the process. For example, we run a design firm (www.metalabdesign.com), and while I don't personally send out estimates or invoices, I can easily keep track of incoming payments via the dashboard, give sign off and comment, see what the numbers for the month were, etc.
Regarding PayPal: Nobody is required to use PayPal - it's totally optional. We're definitely planning on looking into offering payment gateway solutions, but at this point we are focused on polishing the core functionality and adding some really cool new features that will help differentiate us from the pack.
Regarding PayPal: Nobody is required to use PayPal - it's totally optional. We're definitely planning on looking into offering payment gateway solutions, but at this point we are focused on polishing the core functionality and adding some really cool new features that will help differentiate us from the pack.
I saw the site a few days ago when @mike9r talked about it on Twitter and I am impressed with it.
I have tried Blinksale and FreshBooks (who I guess are your two most obvious competitors) and neither of those really worked out for me, so I am anxious to give Ballpark beyond clicking around a bit. I am constantly looking for something that is only as powerful as I need and fits nicely into my work flow.
My favorite feature is definitely the "news feed" that shows comments / payments / etc. - that is a great way to visualize what has gone on with the project.
And yes, great design :)
I have tried Blinksale and FreshBooks (who I guess are your two most obvious competitors) and neither of those really worked out for me, so I am anxious to give Ballpark beyond clicking around a bit. I am constantly looking for something that is only as powerful as I need and fits nicely into my work flow.
My favorite feature is definitely the "news feed" that shows comments / payments / etc. - that is a great way to visualize what has gone on with the project.
And yes, great design :)
The "under 10k" price tag is misleading because it does not include the opportunity cost of the web designers time. In other words, one has to calculate (the hours spent by Metalab web designers * their normal hourly rate) and add this to 10k to arrive at a more accurate cost for building this site.
On the signup page, what percentage of people do you think undferstand the symbol for "infinity"?
Would recommend using the word "unlimited" instead.
Pretty nitpicky, though-- outstanding work and is serving a need that all businesses have. I'm more bullish on this startup than 99% of the startups that are introduced here.
Would recommend using the word "unlimited" instead.
Pretty nitpicky, though-- outstanding work and is serving a need that all businesses have. I'm more bullish on this startup than 99% of the startups that are introduced here.
whats the breakdown of that $10K?
Also, how long did it take from idea to implementation?
The site looks absolutely amazing. Tried a free account for now, and I like the overall feel.
One thing I'd love to see: Implement autosave of invoice drafts, or at least a JavaScript popup whenever I try to navigate away from an unsaved form.
One thing I'd love to see: Implement autosave of invoice drafts, or at least a JavaScript popup whenever I try to navigate away from an unsaved form.
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I see some similarities to 37signals' layout design...
Nice demo video!
One nit-picky detail, at 2:57, the VO says the Dashboard will "show how much money we received this month, last month, and last year, in addition to all the money you expect to receive in the coming weeks" The video shows 'received year to date', not what was received last year.
Probably not worth re-recording the VO (it sounds professionally done), and re-encoding, but I figured you should know :)
One nit-picky detail, at 2:57, the VO says the Dashboard will "show how much money we received this month, last month, and last year, in addition to all the money you expect to receive in the coming weeks" The video shows 'received year to date', not what was received last year.
Probably not worth re-recording the VO (it sounds professionally done), and re-encoding, but I figured you should know :)
I like it, however I think you should allow more invoices to be sent at the lower level of the plans. Maybe just focus on the per-user limitations, and make the estimates generation more generous. Also everything should be over SSL - better for you and better for your customers, since if there is a data breach by the user they will still blame you.
The metalabdesign guys are amazing!! I'm assuming you got the design for less than $10k? If so I need to contact those people!!
I love it! I'm inspired. There are so many problems out there to be solved with Web applications, and money to be made.
In the pricing plan page, the titles of each plan are a bit hard to read as they are black on a dark blue background.
I was discussing building an internal payment management system over lunch today. Do you have an API that we could use instead?
As others have said, kudos on the design.
As others have said, kudos on the design.
Great concept, great design, great execution.
How much is "ballpark.com"?
How much is "ballpark.com"?
None of the buttons or links worked on my iPhone.
wow it's great! It seems also to have many features.
But I don't have much work online to go for it :)
-- Not accepting PayPal is a bad point --
But I don't have much work online to go for it :)
-- Not accepting PayPal is a bad point --
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Interesting choices in the pricing plans. I'm not sure I like using SSL as a differentiator -- I know it is quite common these days for many web apps, but particularly with invoicing you're putting third party (client of client) financial information out on an open wire because somebody was too cheap to pick the $50 a month plan.