Introducing the next generation of Mac(apple.com)
apple.com
Introducing the next generation of Mac
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/11/introducing-the-next-generation-of-mac/
1,002 comments
This was an expected step of the evolution of the Memory Hierarchy. RAM is just bigger-but-slower CPU cache. Swapfile is just bigger-but-slower RAM. There's always a trade-off between size and speed.
Incorporating RAM into the CPU package gives a big performance boost at the expense of maximum capacity. To compensate for the reduced performance in tasks that require more memory, you can either add another layer into the Memory Hierarchy (i.e. CPU Cache -> Fast RAM -> Slow RAM -> Swapfile), or you can improve Swapfile speed. It appears Apple have done the latter - they claim their SSD is up to 2x faster.
Video game consoles have done something similar with the latest generation. Only a 2x increase in RAM from the last generation (compared to an 8x/16x increase from the generation before), but a focus on storage performance.
Incorporating RAM into the CPU package gives a big performance boost at the expense of maximum capacity. To compensate for the reduced performance in tasks that require more memory, you can either add another layer into the Memory Hierarchy (i.e. CPU Cache -> Fast RAM -> Slow RAM -> Swapfile), or you can improve Swapfile speed. It appears Apple have done the latter - they claim their SSD is up to 2x faster.
Video game consoles have done something similar with the latest generation. Only a 2x increase in RAM from the last generation (compared to an 8x/16x increase from the generation before), but a focus on storage performance.
Jisss to be honest the new PlayStation and Xbox hardware is amazing, specificially how the memory/cpu/mobo and streaming system will work. Wish we had something like that in PC land. Then again, their workflow is basically streaming data from disk, thus this round they optimized that hell out of that chunk of the pipeline.
Hopefully AMD learn lessons from that sphere and can bring some of that to our sphere.
Hopefully AMD learn lessons from that sphere and can bring some of that to our sphere.
The problem I see with the PlayStation 5 at least is repairs, if the solded SSD kick the bucket you will probably need to: buy a new chip from Sony and resolder the fault one (or even worse, resolder the entire SSD chips because you can't rely in which cell is physically the data and swapping the cell will probably corrupt the entire disk), or buy a new PS5/Motherboard
You can't just swap the hard disk like before, I'm sure this you be a major headache with repairs
You can't just swap the hard disk like before, I'm sure this you be a major headache with repairs
Battery life is easier to market than an acronym that sounds like it's either related to trucks or sheep.
RAM eats battery. Apple has made a strategic decision to pretend RAM doesn't exist, ship underpowered hardware, then brag about the battery life.
This is also the reason RAM is not listed on iPhone specs.
If I remember correctly the iPhone Pro 12 Max has twice as much RAM as the other 12 models and it's nowhere in the marketing materials. This is not accidental, it's a fundamental part of Apple's strategy.
EDIT: The max has 6GB and the rest of the line has 4GB. That is not twice as much. I did not remember correctly.
RAM eats battery. Apple has made a strategic decision to pretend RAM doesn't exist, ship underpowered hardware, then brag about the battery life.
This is also the reason RAM is not listed on iPhone specs.
If I remember correctly the iPhone Pro 12 Max has twice as much RAM as the other 12 models and it's nowhere in the marketing materials. This is not accidental, it's a fundamental part of Apple's strategy.
EDIT: The max has 6GB and the rest of the line has 4GB. That is not twice as much. I did not remember correctly.
The performance of the phones seem to be smooth compared to Android phones with similar ( or more) RAM. The difference comes from vertical optimization, so the raw numbers on RAM would not give us a full picture.
It is not straight comparison.
The relative openness of Android means your are not always getting the most optimized ROM , a lot of vendors add custom crapware into their phone OOTB.
The relative openness of Android means your are not always getting the most optimized ROM , a lot of vendors add custom crapware into their phone OOTB.
The vendors, who also design phones are not optimizing vertically, as you mentioned.
The whole Android ecosystem is mostly written in Java which could also be another reason why it needs relatively more RAM for comparable performance.
While Java GC on Android may not always be optimal in regards to memory utilization (given that there are other concerns) and AFAIK doesn't allow tuning like you can do for enterprise Java apps it seems like quite a few improvements have been made over time and many GC implementations have resulted from this: https://proandroiddev.com/collecting-the-garbage-a-brief-his...
Personally, i'd look at how common cross-platform apps are and how many of the frameworks (like Ionic and React Native) don't always use the native system UI in an efficient manner.
It seems a bit like running Electron apps on GNU/Linux and being puzzled about where all of the RAM goes.
Personally, i'd look at how common cross-platform apps are and how many of the frameworks (like Ionic and React Native) don't always use the native system UI in an efficient manner.
It seems a bit like running Electron apps on GNU/Linux and being puzzled about where all of the RAM goes.
The Native UI in React Native is where Native comes from in the name. Nothing to do with an electron app which is a full fledged browser with a node process attached to it. Not a fair comparison by large
And yet, that is not the case! While ReactNative might not result in quite as big of a performance penalty as embedding a browser engine, its performance can still be worse than actual native apps, given that it adds additional abstractions to make developer's lives easier and allow for cross-platform development: https://medium.com/swlh/flutter-vs-react-native-vs-native-de...
While one could argue that there aren't that many visually driven experiences like that out in the wild, the benchmarks still prove that most abstractions have drawbacks.
Of course, there are good reasons for using them, which is also why many choose even the previously mentioned Electron platform for development, instead of something like Qt/GTK on desktop.
But for the discussion at hand, it simply serves as a suggestion that there's more at play here than just "Java uses a lot of memory and can be slow".
While one could argue that there aren't that many visually driven experiences like that out in the wild, the benchmarks still prove that most abstractions have drawbacks.
Of course, there are good reasons for using them, which is also why many choose even the previously mentioned Electron platform for development, instead of something like Qt/GTK on desktop.
But for the discussion at hand, it simply serves as a suggestion that there's more at play here than just "Java uses a lot of memory and can be slow".
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Yes, and because people should stop making apps that take 1gb to show some text layout, and pictures.
I am very happy that with all their faults, Apple still ridicules the Webdev crowd
I am very happy that with all their faults, Apple still ridicules the Webdev crowd
Lots and lots of people use their laptops in a way where there's little to no noticeable difference between 8GB and 16GB RAM. Why should those people pay extra for something they don't need? I think the HN crowd - with 4 docker VMs, 3 electron apps, 50 Chrome tabs, ML training, long compile times, etc - need to realize that their workloads and needs are not representative of the majority of users. It's ok for Apple to also make computers for people that are not you.
> It's ok for Apple to also make computers for people that are not you.
Yes, it's perfectly fine to sell machines like these with specs from 2012 but their efficiency should be reflected in the price. Honestly, what Apple is doing now seems like pushing power users buing new hardware towards non-macOS systems.
Yes, it's perfectly fine to sell machines like these with specs from 2012 but their efficiency should be reflected in the price. Honestly, what Apple is doing now seems like pushing power users buing new hardware towards non-macOS systems.
Apple: Populism sells more than power users. Here's a 'free' apple sticker.
Maybe HN needs the docker VMs however I have yet to see a single laptop which doesn't atleast run 3 electon apps and 10-20 tabs in a browser.
Uhm. Adding 16GB RAM instead of 8GB costs almost nothing and which by far and large, is useful to all users. The only reason why they ship 8 GBs is because they want to sell you upgrades, similar to why Apple products come with miniscule SSD hard drives. Certainly, only professionals would need something like 512GBs right?
Yes but those certain professionals can now only upgrade to 16GB on a MacBook Pro in 2020 which is shameful. Oh and it's soldered so you have to buy the beefed up version today, cannot upgrade the RAM 6 months from now.
Go look at a non-techie webbrowsing habits alone: they have 50 tabs open in chrome, some of which are months old. And they install all sorts of other crappy software, anti-virus, browser extensions. Some of them use Chrome, Firefox and Internet Explorer at the same time. And/Or if they use Slack/Steam/Spotify/VS Code/etc they are running another 300MB RAM per app.
If you are a programmer, try all that, with Visual Studio or Eclipse running, sometimes at the same time as Android Studio with an emulator running, maybe with a local postgres or sql server etc... it easily eats up that 16Gb. Oh lets sprinkle some docker/vagrant ontop..
Good luck if you are into video/image editing, 3d modeling, illustrating, CAD etc... then MacBook Pro's are basically the wrong tool for the job today, where it became very famous for being the right tool for the job in ~2010.
Same problem with Intel CPU's...they've been riding the wave of success of their initial chip redesign for 10 years and now AMD seems to be wrecking them every 6 months.
My problem with the RAM situation is that we've been paying ~$100 for 16GB for 5 years now.. instead of getting scale up to ~$100 to 64GB and down to ~$25 for a 16GB dim. The RAM companies riding the wave too at the moment. Luckily SSD's forced HDD manufacturers to up their game else we would've still paid ~$200 for 500GB hdd with 8mb cache, so now we at least have 10TB+ drives avail for consumers.
Go look at a non-techie webbrowsing habits alone: they have 50 tabs open in chrome, some of which are months old. And they install all sorts of other crappy software, anti-virus, browser extensions. Some of them use Chrome, Firefox and Internet Explorer at the same time. And/Or if they use Slack/Steam/Spotify/VS Code/etc they are running another 300MB RAM per app.
If you are a programmer, try all that, with Visual Studio or Eclipse running, sometimes at the same time as Android Studio with an emulator running, maybe with a local postgres or sql server etc... it easily eats up that 16Gb. Oh lets sprinkle some docker/vagrant ontop..
Good luck if you are into video/image editing, 3d modeling, illustrating, CAD etc... then MacBook Pro's are basically the wrong tool for the job today, where it became very famous for being the right tool for the job in ~2010.
Same problem with Intel CPU's...they've been riding the wave of success of their initial chip redesign for 10 years and now AMD seems to be wrecking them every 6 months.
My problem with the RAM situation is that we've been paying ~$100 for 16GB for 5 years now.. instead of getting scale up to ~$100 to 64GB and down to ~$25 for a 16GB dim. The RAM companies riding the wave too at the moment. Luckily SSD's forced HDD manufacturers to up their game else we would've still paid ~$200 for 500GB hdd with 8mb cache, so now we at least have 10TB+ drives avail for consumers.
Months-old Chrome tabs are not resident in RAM.
Almost nothing if you buy a PC. Look at the markups for a RAM upgrade in Macs, it’s gut wrenchingly greedy.
It's the same RAM, as long as you have one of the few models that is still upgradeable at all.
The fact that so many laptops have gone to soldered-in RAM is an entirely different problem, those are all ripoffs no matter what.
The fact that so many laptops have gone to soldered-in RAM is an entirely different problem, those are all ripoffs no matter what.
Not an argument the parent was discussing. You still compare it to Macs which is not the point.
Even worse is that the RAM upgrade pricing hasn't changed in almost a decade.
When I bought my 2012 MacBook Air more than eight years ago it cost me 100 euros to upgrade from 4 to 8 GB of RAM.
Currently it costs 225 euros in the German Apple Store to upgrade form 8 to 16 GB, which is a higher per GB price than in 2012!
When I bought my 2012 MacBook Air more than eight years ago it cost me 100 euros to upgrade from 4 to 8 GB of RAM.
Currently it costs 225 euros in the German Apple Store to upgrade form 8 to 16 GB, which is a higher per GB price than in 2012!
That's (slightly) unfair because obviously the RAM produced in 2012 isn't the same as the RAM produced in 2020. Better to compare Apple's price against the cost of top-of-the-line RAM available for other laptops. I checked around and it looks like you can get 8GB 3200MHz DDR4 from a highly respected brand for 56 USD, while Apple will sell you some mystery RAM for 200 USD. It's not an (ahem) apples-to-apples comparison because the Apple RAM is closely integrated with the SOC, but I think it's fair to say they're making a comfortable margin.
https://www.amazon.com/HyperX-HX424S14IB2-2400MHz-Unbuffered...
https://www.amazon.com/HyperX-HX424S14IB2-2400MHz-Unbuffered...
Do we truly believe that on die memory has similar costs? I don't see how this is remotely possible but its going to take tear downs of both configurations to check what is going on; as in are the 8gb units using chips which never had the circuitry or perhaps disabled by hardware and its still there?
I upgraded my MacBook in 2012 from 4 to 16gb for 110 euro... Just put new memory even before first booting
it seens that RAM is now in the package, making it very very hard (almost impossible in practical terms) to upgrade.
Right? Or did I miss something?
Right? Or did I miss something?
For a work laptop that only serves as an interface to a personal workstation set up in a server room, Macs are so much more enjoyable to use. No worrying about wifi drivers, being able to use the Mac touchpad etc.
Absolutely agree. - First they took away the ability to upgrade RAM, then to change HD/SSD. What‘s next: Can‘t boot any other OS. - Taking away freedom step by step.
I am a die hard Apple products aficionado, I don‘t use any other computing device, but why are many HN commentors stubbornly defending every Apple decision that limits its users is way beyond me.
Edit: Re taking away freedom: Let‘s not forget the many app store dramas on iOS. This is Apple‘s vision for macOS as well: Install only approved apps, show a warning for all other apps (and finally disallow them?)
I am a die hard Apple products aficionado, I don‘t use any other computing device, but why are many HN commentors stubbornly defending every Apple decision that limits its users is way beyond me.
Edit: Re taking away freedom: Let‘s not forget the many app store dramas on iOS. This is Apple‘s vision for macOS as well: Install only approved apps, show a warning for all other apps (and finally disallow them?)
On paper the new Macs seem like Raspberry Pis with a fancy case and display.
There’s a fairly significant performance difference between Apple’s new cores and the Pi 4’s A72s.
If you ignore that and the high-end display, touchpad, and keyboard, then I suppose it’s not too far off from a Pi in a fancy case, but then you could say the same for any laptop.
If you ignore that and the high-end display, touchpad, and keyboard, then I suppose it’s not too far off from a Pi in a fancy case, but then you could say the same for any laptop.
The specs that irk me are RAM and SSD, even more since they started soldering them on. CPU & GPU were always kinda on par with the rest of the field.
In 2012, the same Mac mini case held a cooling system for a 45W chip, 2x2.5" storage bays (or one storage bay and a DVD-Drive), 2 RAM slots, and had three more ports and a card reader. They really used every last corner.
The new one is apparently half empty: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22027513/m...
The new one is apparently half empty: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22027513/m...
None of these new M1 devices will be densely packed. They’re putting smaller boards into the same enclosures. I assume next gen is when they will take advantage of space savings.
Plus a significantly more polished OS, which is the reason I enjoy coding on my Mac.
I'm also a fan of macOS, but those hardware specs (RAM, SSD) were weak 5 years ago.
I was thinking the same thing. I have new Pi and it's pretty close performance wise to my old Mac Mini which is still a fine desktop PC.
Seriously considering getting a Pi for Christmas (8gb) as my current laptop is slowly dying, and just do python on it and return to a simpler life.
My 2012 Macbook Pro was also slowly dying. As a Hail Mary I opened it up, cleaned it and renewed the thermal paste on CPU and GPU. Now it's back to old speeds!
And this is not only about 2020, most likely people will use the machine till 2025. ( Also consider the fact that Apple solders the RAM to motherboard. )
Apple is in the business of making money not pushing the industry towards benefiting users.
Not only the base spec is 8GB but the largest possible upgrade is 16GB. My previous-generation Macbook Pro had the possibility of 32GB, which is what I bought because I think that's a decent minimum for a computer I want to last.
We will probably see the next round of new Macs in either March or June. I suspect that is when we will see the next version of the chipset that would support higher RAM limits and more I/O ports. We might start seeing the new hardware design language,too.
8GB is def low. I do have 16GB MBP and honestly it's doing fine for local dev on a large enterprise project with about 40 services running in docker.
My base model macbook pro from 2014 had 8GB of RAM. So, yeah, they've been selling laptops with the same base amount of RAM for at least 6 or 7 years.
Because not everyone is on containers fashion running full blown clusters on their laptops and 8 GB are more than good enough for enterprise developers.
One doesn't even need to be a developer to fill up 8GB with just a browser, Teams and Slack in the background (or any other Electron apps of their employer's choice).
Another wise choice is not to use anything Electron based unless forced by the employer, or customer, and in that case, it is expected that they pay for the hardware.
This is a confusing comment. If your mother doesn't need more than 8GB RAM, why should she have to pay for more? It's not as though you can't order more if you want it.
It wouldn't force the industry to offer more. It would just mean purchasers such as your mother wouldn't buy a Mac.
It wouldn't force the industry to offer more. It would just mean purchasers such as your mother wouldn't buy a Mac.
> It's not as though you can't order more if you want it.
You can't upgrade it on new Mac laptops. The ram is basically fully integrated in the system now.
You can do 16gb for silly high price, but that's also not massive these days.
You can't upgrade it on new Mac laptops. The ram is basically fully integrated in the system now.
You can do 16gb for silly high price, but that's also not massive these days.
Agreed, but I'm talking about ordering more initially. As in it's not a bad idea to have 2 options instead of one.
Let's not pretend decent amount of RAM is prohibitively expensive.
My MBP from 2013 has 8gb RAM and I considered that an essential upgrade at the time!
I only upgraded from my 2013 MBP this time last year. Through most of that time the macbook was my workhorse as a contractor. It's still more than sufficient for many of the web and data jobs I did.
I'm not even sure how much ram my laptop has. It's probably not that important.
I’ve got 64gb Ram in my mbp.
The vast majority of laptops in the $999 range are bought by people that only need "devices that only my mother would use"
A bit out of touch I think. All the midde age mothers I know personally buy $300 laptops from Walmart.
I think the point was that the people who buy the $999 laptops would be fine with the $300 laptops
Exactly - I'd guess the majority of Macbook Airs are used for surfing, email, writing a presentation etc. not developing.
For this 8gb is fine though right? I get the idea - we want Apple to push the bar. But my 2011 4gb MacBook Air with Catalina does those things fine... swapping to an SSD is reasonably fast.
Yes - I'm developing on an 8gb 2013 MacBook Air - I'd like more RAM, but it is about doable.
But in general MacBook Airs are not developer or video editing machines and they're not speced for that.
But in general MacBook Airs are not developer or video editing machines and they're not speced for that.
Ah! Then yes I agree.
Not true at all.
Maybe in the US but not elsewhere. I know more than a few developers that work on sub $999 laptops/machines. Specifically Dell/Lenovo laptops seems to be the go to, since they can get them with 16GB RAM + 1TB hdd + non-discrete gfx, then they just swap out the hdd with 256/512GB ssd.
About half of all my dev friends have given up on laptops (specifically apple gear, incl iPhone) and ALL of them built ryzen-based machines and work from home. My previous workplace refused to buy us laptops and built typical workstation PC's for everyone (quadcore i5 + 16GB RAM + 256GB ssd + 1TB hdd, this was around 2017). The guys that do have iPad's tend to hang on to them but swapped their iPhones with Android phones when they ditched their MacBooks. Main complaint? Ports & (Performance vs Price vs (ryzen pc with same price)).
About half of all my dev friends have given up on laptops (specifically apple gear, incl iPhone) and ALL of them built ryzen-based machines and work from home. My previous workplace refused to buy us laptops and built typical workstation PC's for everyone (quadcore i5 + 16GB RAM + 256GB ssd + 1TB hdd, this was around 2017). The guys that do have iPad's tend to hang on to them but swapped their iPhones with Android phones when they ditched their MacBooks. Main complaint? Ports & (Performance vs Price vs (ryzen pc with same price)).
I didn't say that developers don't buy $999 laptops I said that the majority of $999 laptops are bought by non developers.
> How are companies still releasing hardware with 8GB RAM?
8GB is a huge amount of RAM. I cannot imagine writing a serious program that needs more than 2% of that. The real problem is programmers using "frameworks" and shit that requires inordinate amounts of unused memory.
8GB is a huge amount of RAM. I cannot imagine writing a serious program that needs more than 2% of that. The real problem is programmers using "frameworks" and shit that requires inordinate amounts of unused memory.
Mostly Electron. I don't like it either, but Electron is a fact of life now.
While you don't have to join in on that as a developer, you still have to be aware that 95% of users will have no idea that their instant messaging application uses 800mb of RAM to idle, or whether that's a bad thing.
While you don't have to join in on that as a developer, you still have to be aware that 95% of users will have no idea that their instant messaging application uses 800mb of RAM to idle, or whether that's a bad thing.
Do you only ever run a single process in some non-multitasking OS?
The rest of us are using Linux, Windows and MacOS, where many processes run side by side, each with memory requirements.
The rest of us are using Linux, Windows and MacOS, where many processes run side by side, each with memory requirements.
Indeed, my first versions of Linux were running on 512 MB PC and my 8GB laptop from 2009 does just fine.
I run regressions on half a million data points. My 2017 Macbook Pro with (checks) 8 Gb of RAM works fine. I'm not sure what all you guys' mothers are doing.
Half a million data points sounds like a lot but it's smaller than a 1k texture. RAM for integrated graphics is VRAM too, just to render to the screen you need a ton of it, for every open window.
Not op, but my main laptop is a 2013 MacBook Air with 8GB of RAM. It’s old enough to have developed dead pixels, the backlight is now noticeably uneven, the USB ports have become loose, several keys now only work unreliability, and it now does an emergency low power shutdown when the battery reports 55%.
(Naturally this means it is now permanently plugged into mains power and an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse).
Yet the RAM is still sufficient for my use of macOS, dozens of Chrome and Safari tabs, Xcode, TextWrangler, iTunes, etc.
(Naturally this means it is now permanently plugged into mains power and an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse).
Yet the RAM is still sufficient for my use of macOS, dozens of Chrome and Safari tabs, Xcode, TextWrangler, iTunes, etc.
Your use is probably shaped by the limit, though. I mean, a few tabs open in Chrome is easily a couple of GBs alone.
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A few dozen tabs, as in often in the range of 24-60.
That one aspect never even seems problematic or limiting, and it’s not like I’m oblivious to all the other things wrong with such an old piece of hardware.
That one aspect never even seems problematic or limiting, and it’s not like I’m oblivious to all the other things wrong with such an old piece of hardware.
I don't understand the pricing of the MacBook Air vs the 13" Pro.
The Air ($1249) vs 13" Pro ($1299), you get:
- same CPU
- same GPU
- same Neural chip
- same RAM (8gb)
- More storage for the Air (512gb vs 256gb with 13" Pro)
- You get Touch Bar with 13" Pro
So if you don't care about the Touch Bar, you actually get with the Air:
- better specs
- smaller device footprint
- and $50 cheaper.
Am I missing something?
The Air ($1249) vs 13" Pro ($1299), you get:
- same CPU
- same GPU
- same Neural chip
- same RAM (8gb)
- More storage for the Air (512gb vs 256gb with 13" Pro)
- You get Touch Bar with 13" Pro
So if you don't care about the Touch Bar, you actually get with the Air:
- better specs
- smaller device footprint
- and $50 cheaper.
Am I missing something?
Perhaps this pricing was brought about by the same head injury that caused someone in management to believe 8GB is an adequate base spec for RAM in 2020.
I really don't get it. How much difference could 8 to 16gb be in terms of price? Is Apple really doing this to save 20$ per machine?
Even if you somehow could argue that 8 is all you need now, what about in few years? No one should ever buy this device.
Even if you somehow could argue that 8 is all you need now, what about in few years? No one should ever buy this device.
They aren't doing it to save 20$ per machine, they are doing it to make the higher price of a 16GB machine seem more reasonable than if it was the base model.
Yeah this screams classic Apple. Advertise the cost of the Mac as lower, but with a shitty option that most people will have to upgrade. Majority are not going to want to buy a 8gb laptop for that kind of money and not just bump it up to 16gb.
This reminds me of how movie theatres offer a small, medium and large but the large popcorn only costs slightly more than the medium, thus enticing you to go for the large.
This reminds me of how movie theatres offer a small, medium and large but the large popcorn only costs slightly more than the medium, thus enticing you to go for the large.
Yes, not just classic Apple but classic lots of things. Cars are sold the same way
I’ll add classic Lenovo to the list, whose base level thinkpad are underspeced and have terrible screens. The fact that apple doesnt perpetually claim their machines are on sale is their last bastion of superiority
What do you mean? I scored a sweet ThinkPad deal — $2,000 off using code “SUCKER” at checkout!
You used to be able to replace/extend ThinkPad parts quite easily. We'd buy base models exclusively and just add extra stick of ram and flip the CD rom to another hard drive or battery - those were super cheap high quality laptops.
Only recently Lenovo started to solder their parts so base models lost their power :(
Only recently Lenovo started to solder their parts so base models lost their power :(
It's worth noting that they are charging $200 for the 8GB memory upgrade.
The spot price for 16GB of LPDDR4 looks like it's currently ~$8 per DRAMexchange: https://www.dramexchange.com/
They're also charging $200 for a 256GB storage upgrade - spot price of 3D TLC is $3/256Gb ($24 for 256GB) - you can currently buy a 256GB NVMe SSD (full stick with controller) at retail for <$30 as well.
The spot price for 16GB of LPDDR4 looks like it's currently ~$8 per DRAMexchange: https://www.dramexchange.com/
They're also charging $200 for a 256GB storage upgrade - spot price of 3D TLC is $3/256Gb ($24 for 256GB) - you can currently buy a 256GB NVMe SSD (full stick with controller) at retail for <$30 as well.
That is like saying the materials the baker needs to bake bread cost 5¢. Why doesn’t the baker price his bread at 5¢?
That might be a somewhat relevant analogy if you had a choice to go somewhere else to buy bread elsewhere, but since both memory and storage are now soldered, you are forced to upgrade for the lifetime of the product at purchase. The relevance on the parts pricing here is to point out that Apple is being extremely abusive in their pricing to their customers.
Many laptops now have soldered RAM, but other vendors have not chosen to do what Apple has done. In HP's premium laptop (Spectre x360 13t), adding 8GB of RAM is a +$70 option. For reference, an 8GB DDR4 SODIMM at retail pricing is about $30.
Also, AFAIK, no other major laptop or mini-desktop manufacturer uses soldered storage like Apple does, so in this case, the retail cost for storage is even more relevant.
These are commodity parts, so there's not any R&D to recoup - this is just profiteering on Apple's part. Especially for the Mac Mini, where there's not the same space constraints, the lack of storage upgradability is also a rather egregious form of forced obsolescence. Fine from a business perspective, but hypocritical for a company that claims to care about the environment.
Many laptops now have soldered RAM, but other vendors have not chosen to do what Apple has done. In HP's premium laptop (Spectre x360 13t), adding 8GB of RAM is a +$70 option. For reference, an 8GB DDR4 SODIMM at retail pricing is about $30.
Also, AFAIK, no other major laptop or mini-desktop manufacturer uses soldered storage like Apple does, so in this case, the retail cost for storage is even more relevant.
These are commodity parts, so there's not any R&D to recoup - this is just profiteering on Apple's part. Especially for the Mac Mini, where there's not the same space constraints, the lack of storage upgradability is also a rather egregious form of forced obsolescence. Fine from a business perspective, but hypocritical for a company that claims to care about the environment.
Well, no. Apple buys RAM chips at that price, and they just have to swap one chip for another. The differential in price from one to the other including all costs is that much. Labour costs and OpEx are not affected by choosing Chip A or Chip B that are essentially identical.
This is pretty much the reason why I'll never will buy apple devices again. Recently I bought iphone 11 for my girlfriend as a present and the price difference between 64GB model (which honestly might as well be a dead brick in this data age) and 256GB model was around 30% in my country which is beyond absurd.
You can call me bitter but this sort of manipulation is making me extremely salty to the point where I'll be having seething hate for the company for the rest of my life.
You can call me bitter but this sort of manipulation is making me extremely salty to the point where I'll be having seething hate for the company for the rest of my life.
> How much difference could 8 to 16gb be in terms of price?
The RAM is embedded into the SoC. Maybe the 8GB are salvaged chips where half of the memory is unusable?
The RAM is embedded into the SoC. Maybe the 8GB are salvaged chips where half of the memory is unusable?
$20 at the volume they sell does add up.
But I think a more important factor is future sales. They will likely sell more laptops as these 8GB owners upgrade earlier (in 2-3 years) as the OS and apps continue to bloat.
So on one side they save $20 per laptop and they likely sell more laptops.
But I think a more important factor is future sales. They will likely sell more laptops as these 8GB owners upgrade earlier (in 2-3 years) as the OS and apps continue to bloat.
So on one side they save $20 per laptop and they likely sell more laptops.
> $20 at the volume they sell does add up.
So charge $50 more per laptop and make $30 more profit while not producing 8 GB junk that'll be e-waste in a few years because that's barely enough RAM to run an average browser session anymore.
So charge $50 more per laptop and make $30 more profit while not producing 8 GB junk that'll be e-waste in a few years because that's barely enough RAM to run an average browser session anymore.
>Even if you somehow could argue that 8 is all you need now, what about in few years?
What about it? It's not like someone who mostly browses the web, checks email, works with office documents, and so on, will change what he does in a few years...
What about it? It's not like someone who mostly browses the web, checks email, works with office documents, and so on, will change what he does in a few years...
> will change what he does in a few years...
The fatal flaw in this argument is the failure to realize that web pages are bloating, video is becoming more prevalent, higher resolution images, etc.
So “browses the web” has ever increasing hardware requirements if you want to maintain the experience.
The fatal flaw in this argument is the failure to realize that web pages are bloating, video is becoming more prevalent, higher resolution images, etc.
So “browses the web” has ever increasing hardware requirements if you want to maintain the experience.
Not to mention they love talking about video editing, Neural Engine, etc. Those things eat RAM as well
8GB is definitely underpowered
8GB is definitely underpowered
The large consumer market that uses mac for common computing activities will not need more soon, perhaps, but many of Apple's bulwark clients - graphic designers, musicians, and even developers - probably will.
Despite the software they demoed, the machines they show (with exception of the mini) were all for the non-demanding users.
I would like to see Photos on those benchmarks, that is one program that would benefit from lots of ram, and would be used by many of the Air’s customers.
I would like to see Photos on those benchmarks, that is one program that would benefit from lots of ram, and would be used by many of the Air’s customers.
Those don't buy the base configuration, and never had.
>that caused someone in management to believe 8GB is an adequate base spec for RAM in 2020.
And yet most PC laptops, with same or higher prices, have the same base spec, so there's that...
And yet most PC laptops, with same or higher prices, have the same base spec, so there's that...
Not everyone is you.
It is definitely an adequate base spec. What would the random MacBook user fill 16GB of RAM with?
I have Firefox, Slack, MS Team, MS Word, MS Excel, and Onenote opened. The world's most boring office worker use case.
I know it's a deceptive metric but Task Manager shows 12.5GB "In Use". 16.2 Committed.
Each Firefox tab has between 250mb and 1g "Memory (Active Working Area)".
HUUUUUGeeeee long tail of 100MB trailing down to 20MB services and things. Adobe has half a dozen at all times, etc etc etc.
I'm game to use any other "more realistic" specification or monitor as I know that with memory paging and virtualization things are wonky.
I don't think this indicates I MUST have 12 or 16 or 32GB - I have a 4GB media PC that works just fine. But I do believe it's an indicator average user can use 16GB, if it's available. Or in other words, if I buy a $1000USD laptop, I don't think 16GB is going to waste away unused with zero benefit ever :-\
Again, perfectly willing to be educated :).
I know it's a deceptive metric but Task Manager shows 12.5GB "In Use". 16.2 Committed.
Each Firefox tab has between 250mb and 1g "Memory (Active Working Area)".
HUUUUUGeeeee long tail of 100MB trailing down to 20MB services and things. Adobe has half a dozen at all times, etc etc etc.
I'm game to use any other "more realistic" specification or monitor as I know that with memory paging and virtualization things are wonky.
I don't think this indicates I MUST have 12 or 16 or 32GB - I have a 4GB media PC that works just fine. But I do believe it's an indicator average user can use 16GB, if it's available. Or in other words, if I buy a $1000USD laptop, I don't think 16GB is going to waste away unused with zero benefit ever :-\
Again, perfectly willing to be educated :).
> Slack
You're lucky any of those other applications opened at all!
You're lucky any of those other applications opened at all!
Those apps will use memory as they are given it, for the most part.
Yes, largely because two of those are (bad) Electron apps that eat way more memory than they have any right to.
What is the person buying a laptop supposed to do about that?
Oh, I don't disagree even remotely! We can have a nice thread about optimized apps and 4k demos :)
But in context of expectations in the $1k laptop market, my point was that perfectly normal usage can grow to benefit from over 8GB of RAM these days, whatever the background reasons may be.
But in context of expectations in the $1k laptop market, my point was that perfectly normal usage can grow to benefit from over 8GB of RAM these days, whatever the background reasons may be.
For a $1,000 laptop? I disagree. It’s fine for a $500 one but Apple doesn’t sell those.
There are tons of $1000 PC laptops with worse build and 8GB
That $500 difference goes towards a higher quality product with good support, not necessarily just system specs.
I think what they're saying is that they'd expect a $500 price increase to update specs as well.
On my MBP with Catalina just browsing will get me over 8 gigs. Reaching 16 is another thing, that i did not manage even with Docker and mutiple IDEs in a typical day.
I personally wouldn't buy something without 32GB these days. But I would tell family/friends to get at least 16GB. With 32GB, I rarely have to think about RAM. But I'm probably 85%+ utilization all the time. I'll admit that I'm a "power user", but my wife has a fairly new laptop with 8GB and it fills up FAST, even when doing nothing serious. It's at 81% right now with just Firefox, Word, and Evernote.
If I were going for a desktop it'd be at least 64GB.
If I were going for a desktop it'd be at least 64GB.
More than one electron app?
We are not looking at a typical Mac user here, are we?
Slack, Whatsapp, Discord, and Skype, pick any two and I don't think it's unusual.
I'm not saying your wrong, but this is such a catch-22.
When people complain about Electron apps, the response is always "modern computers have so much memory anyway, it's fine!"
But then when a manufacturer introduces a computer with slightly less memory (but still a perfectly reasonable amount) the big question is whether it can run all those Electron apps!
Is there a way to break the cycle? This isn't good!
When people complain about Electron apps, the response is always "modern computers have so much memory anyway, it's fine!"
But then when a manufacturer introduces a computer with slightly less memory (but still a perfectly reasonable amount) the big question is whether it can run all those Electron apps!
Is there a way to break the cycle? This isn't good!
Never measured whatsapp but it's really pretty performant. Is it heavy?
Slack and discord, on the other hand, are real drags.
Slack and discord, on the other hand, are real drags.
> Never measured whatsapp but it's really pretty performant
are we really talking about the same whatsapp ? it takes a good 4 seconds to load here. I don't remember ever waiting for MSN Messenger to load, on potato-powered computers.
are we really talking about the same whatsapp ? it takes a good 4 seconds to load here. I don't remember ever waiting for MSN Messenger to load, on potato-powered computers.
I think that's because it's trying to connect to your phone since that's where the messages etc are stored.
Electron is cancer .. but Skype is native (for now, at least on Linux. Although I'm sure they'll switch to the Teams codebase and Skype native will disappear forever too)
Is that recent? It definitely used to be Electron https://www.codepicky.com/hacking-electron-restyle-skype/
Skype 7 was native; Skype 8 is Electron. So is Teams.
I'm not sure 16 GB is enough.
Chrome?
I don’t do any tab-hoarding in Chrome (that’s the job of Safari on my machine), but I’m pretty sure that it will suspend tabs long before you run out of RAM. 8 GB is still plenty for web browsing.
I started surfing the net in the 90s with 8MB. :D
BRB gonna fire up Netscape on my brand new MacBook Air
Netscape?! That's for the kids, we used NCSA Mosaic and liked it. I suspect lynx is still around in some form.
Lynx is definitely still around. Useful for a quick "can I actually get to this site" sanity checks on servers.
Yeah, but I need both browser + IntelliJ. I run out of 8 GB pretty damn quickly.
Definitely not the random user, but the moment you start running docker containers, you are screwed.
Electron apps.
Chrome, Slack, Zoom, Docker, k8s, VS Code, etc.
The median Macbook user is not a developer. A web browser and videocalling are the only two from that list you'd expect the median user to be doing with a Macbook.
1. The market those as "Pro"
2. Their entire presentation focuses on editing large image files, editing 4k video, machine learning, and graphics-intensive games (games were mentioned more than anything else)
So, given how these are marketed, they are extremely low on RAM and storage.
2. Their entire presentation focuses on editing large image files, editing 4k video, machine learning, and graphics-intensive games (games were mentioned more than anything else)
So, given how these are marketed, they are extremely low on RAM and storage.
Also Office. Lots of open Word documents.
My "typical Mac user" in this case, is my wife. Her 8GB MBP is holding up very well.
My "typical Mac user" in this case, is my wife. Her 8GB MBP is holding up very well.
Does macOS handle memory in a way where it just lets RAM fill up to some point before actively doing something about it? Because on my 16gig Macbook 8 gigs are gone just with browsing & spotify.
Yes. If you run vm_stat in the Terminal, you can see how few pages of RAM are actually left free at any given time. Modern operating systems aggressively cache files in RAM to improve performance.
The green/yellow/red graph in the Memory tab of Activity Manager is the best way of seeing if you need more RAM at a glance. In my experience, macOS won't do any swapping in the green. In the yellow, the system is still pretty usable but there's some swapping going on. When it turns red, your SSD will be getting thrashed pretty hard.
The green/yellow/red graph in the Memory tab of Activity Manager is the best way of seeing if you need more RAM at a glance. In my experience, macOS won't do any swapping in the green. In the yellow, the system is still pretty usable but there's some swapping going on. When it turns red, your SSD will be getting thrashed pretty hard.
Thanks for the hint!
They're not really "gone", they've just been put to use because there's no point in leaving RAM empty. You can do much more than run a browser and Spotify with 8GB of RAM.
Thanks, memory stats sure look different than with linux. Switched a short while back & was surprised, but that would explain it.
It's a good question -- do most people still use desktop office suites these days? I don't know the answer. I use the Google Docs suite for both work and for personal stuff, and I personally haven't seen the need to pay for Office in awhile.
Google Docs and Slides browser tabs can take a decent amount of resources too.
Your definition of random user seems a little off.
>8GB is an adequate base spec for RAM in 2020.
Why wouldn't it be? The iPad Pros max out at 6gb and yet they overperform the vast majority of laptops out there.
Why wouldn't it be? The iPad Pros max out at 6gb and yet they overperform the vast majority of laptops out there.
I bought a 16GB MacBook Pro in 2013. It’s still going strong.
Today I wouldn’t buy less than 32GB.
Performance is always better and the machine will last much longer
Today I wouldn’t buy less than 32GB.
Performance is always better and the machine will last much longer
> and the machine will last much longer.
At the moment, that's debatable, since the only 32GB Macs you can buy are Intel ones...
At the moment, that's debatable, since the only 32GB Macs you can buy are Intel ones...
I have a Mac mini that still had upgradable ram, and was able to be kidded to add a second hard drive. I put 32 gigs of ran and an 1 tb ssd into it. I’ve had it for roughly 7 years. Any current Mac mini is a downgrade except in processor speed.
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Do they overperform for laptop use cases or for iPad use cases?
Video encoding is one example of a laptop use case where the iPad Pro has very competitive performance. Gaming is another.
We're talking about RAM. RAM usage is a direct function of how many apps you have open at the same time. For an iPad that number is a lot smaller than for a laptop.
I don't think that's the reason the iPad Pro performs well at video encoding (or else you'd be able to say the same thing for any Android tablet). It's a combination of dedicated hardware and a fast CPU.
What I'm saying is that just because the iPad Pro is good at video encoding it doesn't mean that it is capable of running a windowed OS with real multitasking. For that you need more RAM. The iPad is built for a specific workflow where you use one or two apps at a time, laptops are designed for a workflow that involves more multitasking.
What Apple appears to have done is transpose the hardware from iPad to Mac without thinking about the different requirements of each. There is a reason that RAM is not part of the package on laptop CPUs. This might work for casual users but people spending $$$ on a "pro" computer will wise up pretty fast.
What Apple appears to have done is transpose the hardware from iPad to Mac without thinking about the different requirements of each. There is a reason that RAM is not part of the package on laptop CPUs. This might work for casual users but people spending $$$ on a "pro" computer will wise up pretty fast.
I used to run a Windowed OS with real multitasking on a 33MHz 486 DX with 4MB of RAM! Sure, apps are a little more resource hungry these days, but there's nothing about multitasking or windowing that inherently requires tons of RAM. An iPad could for sure enable full multitasking without any problems. Apple has made millions of laptops that ran OS X perfectly fine with less than 6GB of RAM. It's just that iPad users aren't accustomed to having to manually manage which apps are open at any given time.
I have a 2019 Macbook Air with 8GB RAM and it runs OS X fine for dev work. RAM compression and fast SSD storage make a big difference. The newer Macbooks will have even faster SSDs.
I think the main reason Apple don't want to add lots of RAM to the base Macbook models is that it's the wrong compromise between battery life and performance for most users. They are probably betting on continuing gains in SSD performance obviating the need for additional RAM.
I have a 2019 Macbook Air with 8GB RAM and it runs OS X fine for dev work. RAM compression and fast SSD storage make a big difference. The newer Macbooks will have even faster SSDs.
I think the main reason Apple don't want to add lots of RAM to the base Macbook models is that it's the wrong compromise between battery life and performance for most users. They are probably betting on continuing gains in SSD performance obviating the need for additional RAM.
Video encoding is usually special dedicated hardware, so it's more measuring the hardware encoder than the general speed of the device. Go head to head with AV1 encoding for example and you'll see it matches it's general benchmark.
Also, hardware encoders produce much less efficient results (in terms of the ratio of quality to file size) then the best software encoders like x264.
Yes, but Apple are moving in the direction of adding dedicated hardware to support a lot of common use cases. The point remains that video encoding is something that people often use laptops for. Users just want it to go fast; they don't care how exactly the hardware is making that happen.
The iPad Pro has strong raw CPU performance in any case. It certainly outperforms plenty of entry-level Windows laptops.
The iPad Pro has strong raw CPU performance in any case. It certainly outperforms plenty of entry-level Windows laptops.
Seriously though what’s the connection between it being 2020 and there being more default RAM? Are you suggesting that in the year 2030 we should expect 100gb of RAM?
The goal shouldn’t be to increase ageing technology but to replace it with something better.
The goal shouldn’t be to increase ageing technology but to replace it with something better.
If you do anything like virtualization 8GB of RAM is absolutely paltry, borderline unusable - due to the need, e.g. to allocate a specific amount of RAM to a running VM.
To be honest, I find even 16GB to be limiting. The lack of offering of a 32GB configuration killed the immediate sale for me, absolutely no exaggeration.
Because you can't upgrade it post-market, I'd consider these to be some of the least future-proofed releases from Apple in a while.
To be honest, I find even 16GB to be limiting. The lack of offering of a 32GB configuration killed the immediate sale for me, absolutely no exaggeration.
Because you can't upgrade it post-market, I'd consider these to be some of the least future-proofed releases from Apple in a while.
> Are you suggesting that in the year 2030 we should expect 100gb of RAM?
100GB sounds like paltry for 10 years of technological advancement. In 2010 DDR4 didn't exist yet and DDR3 only supported up to 16GB per ram stick (8 on Intel at the time). Now we have ram sticks with capacities up to 256GB. The 2010 MacBook Pro only came with 4GB! But really "640K ought to be enough for anybody", am I right?
100GB sounds like paltry for 10 years of technological advancement. In 2010 DDR4 didn't exist yet and DDR3 only supported up to 16GB per ram stick (8 on Intel at the time). Now we have ram sticks with capacities up to 256GB. The 2010 MacBook Pro only came with 4GB! But really "640K ought to be enough for anybody", am I right?
Well, I get where you're coming from, but would compare it maybe to electric or hydrogen vs gas cars. If I was in the market for a new car and drove certain distances regularly, I probably wouldn't be the first to buy something that could only go half the distance less conveniently, but does it faster.
> Are you suggesting that in the year 2030 we should expect 100gb of RAM?
You can buy a Thinkpad P15 with 128GB of RAM today, so I'd expect more like multi-TB RAM by 2030.
You can buy a Thinkpad P15 with 128GB of RAM today, so I'd expect more like multi-TB RAM by 2030.
I think I'm with you here.
I've had 16 gigs for the last 8 years. I thought about getting 32, but I haven't noticed needing more memory and it does use (battery) energy so I decided against it.
I've had 16 gigs for the last 8 years. I thought about getting 32, but I haven't noticed needing more memory and it does use (battery) energy so I decided against it.
More ram is patch for components that aren’t hyper-optimized to work together. The whole point of what apple is doing with their own silicon is to create that optimization, thus reducing the need for excessive ram.
It’s worked for them for iPad and iPhone. Samsung et all would boast more ram but oddly enough iPhones were and remain faster
It’s worked for them for iPad and iPhone. Samsung et all would boast more ram but oddly enough iPhones were and remain faster
An iPad and iPhone mostly display one thing. One app or maybe a second one in split screen.
A laptop can run many things simultaneously. Web browser, Office suite, Musik, EMail client, Cloud sync... Even my mother struggled with 8GB RAM on here work machine and she is by far no PC expert. She writes emails and letters, opens spreadsheets and websites. Sometimes she gets a call and has to open another document or website. End of RAM.
I would NOT recommend the 8GB Macbook Pro for professional work.
A laptop can run many things simultaneously. Web browser, Office suite, Musik, EMail client, Cloud sync... Even my mother struggled with 8GB RAM on here work machine and she is by far no PC expert. She writes emails and letters, opens spreadsheets and websites. Sometimes she gets a call and has to open another document or website. End of RAM.
I would NOT recommend the 8GB Macbook Pro for professional work.
Not sure the downvoting ...
Even with 16, 32gb of ram, Android phones still don’t have buttery smooth 60 FPS while iOS has never been smoother
Even with 16, 32gb of ram, Android phones still don’t have buttery smooth 60 FPS while iOS has never been smoother
You're confusing CPU and memory pressure, and attributing blame to the wrong component.
Android's lack of smoothness is due to thread contention, whereas the iOS kernel uses a dedicated UI thread running at high priority. RAM size has no impact on UI performance, beyond a sufficient amount for the kernel.
Android's lack of smoothness is due to thread contention, whereas the iOS kernel uses a dedicated UI thread running at high priority. RAM size has no impact on UI performance, beyond a sufficient amount for the kernel.
To add on to this, the person you are replying to is also quite wrong. Android devices definitely can be smooth and many go past 60hz now and have higher refresh rates than Apple products.
I don't care that the p90 UI latency performance is better, the p99 performance on Android devices is terrible (UI stuttering).
I use a Pixel 3 and iPhone 8 on a daily basis.
I use a Pixel 3 and iPhone 8 on a daily basis.
Agreed. I have a pixel work phone and iPhone (XS/12 pro) for personal usage. Even though the Android is also current gen it can be unresponsive at times and also the face unlock is terrible on the android. I can’t remember the last time faceid failed but on Android it’s atleast 2-3 times a day.
You're getting downvoted because "hyper-optimizing" isn't going to let me run another VM or launch another instance of Xcode.
95% percent of laptop users wont run VMs or Xcode, so there's that...
MacBooks and PowerBooks before them where about that 5% of power users who fell in love with their tools and preached to all their friends and family to get one too.
Now that apple has the remaining 95%, it is letting their power users down. But that is only natural, establishing a beachhead with the powerusers was "just" a genious marketing move that worked pretty well.
Now that apple has the remaining 95%, it is letting their power users down. But that is only natural, establishing a beachhead with the powerusers was "just" a genious marketing move that worked pretty well.
>MacBooks and PowerBooks before them where about that 5% of power users who fell in love with their tools and preached to all their friends and family to get one too.
And they still are. Just not in their base configuration, like they have never been. I've been using their stuff since the Motorola era.
Was there any time Apple gave "ample" RAM/DISK in their base configuration? No.
If anything, now it's better than ever...
And they still are. Just not in their base configuration, like they have never been. I've been using their stuff since the Motorola era.
Was there any time Apple gave "ample" RAM/DISK in their base configuration? No.
If anything, now it's better than ever...
They might both be an M1, but only the Pro has a cooling fan.
The Air is going a more iPad route; totally silent and more than enough performance for typical tasks, but under sustained load it's going to throttle hard.
The Air is going a more iPad route; totally silent and more than enough performance for typical tasks, but under sustained load it's going to throttle hard.
Or they may be throttled lower all the time, so that using the four performance cores still stays within its cooling budget. Either way, it's not going to run as fast as the MBP without having a fan.
I'm very curious to see benchmarks on these things. Also wondering if processors are performance binned from one SKU to another, or if it's really just the amount of RAM and storage.
Apple's been known to have secret hardware differences like that, the 2018 iPad Pro had 4GB of RAM unless you specced it up to 1TB storage, which included a secret upgrade to 6GB RAM. You wouldn't know from the specs, since Apple doesn't talk about how much RAM their iPads have.
Now here we are with the M1 and Apple doesn't talk about the clock speed. All MacBook Pros have an M1, but do they all have the same clock speed? Maybe.
I'm very curious to see benchmarks on these things. Also wondering if processors are performance binned from one SKU to another, or if it's really just the amount of RAM and storage.
Apple's been known to have secret hardware differences like that, the 2018 iPad Pro had 4GB of RAM unless you specced it up to 1TB storage, which included a secret upgrade to 6GB RAM. You wouldn't know from the specs, since Apple doesn't talk about how much RAM their iPads have.
Now here we are with the M1 and Apple doesn't talk about the clock speed. All MacBook Pros have an M1, but do they all have the same clock speed? Maybe.
Here[1] is an article from The Verge that goes into the full differences with confirmation from Apple. For those too lazy to click through, yes the fan is the biggest difference. Beyond that the screen in the Air is slightly darker, the base model has worse chips due to binning, the battery is smaller, and there is obviously the Touchbar.
[1] - https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/21559228/apple-new-macbo...
[1] - https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/21559228/apple-new-macbo...
On the Air only 7 GPU cores (vs 8 on Pro). Also no active cooling, so likely lower max CPU performance under thermally limited conditions.
The $1249 MacBook Air in question has 8 GPU cores:
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-air/space-gray-ap...
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-air/space-gray-ap...
The higher spec air has 8 gpu cores as well
Thermals and sustained performance. I expect 10 W passive CPU in MBA body to throttle quickly - I now have 2017 12" MB, and for about 60(winter)/15(summer) seconds of sustained load it's the most awesome little machine in the world, and then becomes a slog.
It has 7W CPU in slightly smaller body than new Air, so I expect Air's performance review to be 'the story about throttling'.
It has 7W CPU in slightly smaller body than new Air, so I expect Air's performance review to be 'the story about throttling'.
The pro comes with fan cooling.
With that, the pro can run for much longer without hitting max temperatures .
The air is fanless so in an intesive task, you will hit thermal limits very soon and the cpu will be slowed down .
Maybe the 5nm process just runs much cooler?
Better screen, better thermals (this is really important, hopefully they do it right), larger battery (almost 15%).
At 1500$ for 16GB version 13" Pro seems like a really good value deal for on the go workstation - if M1 benchmarks come out decent.
At 1500$ for 16GB version 13" Pro seems like a really good value deal for on the go workstation - if M1 benchmarks come out decent.
They should have had better thermals in the previous 13" Pro, but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec&t=3m56s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec&t=5m30s
That's just a headscratcher.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec&t=3m56s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec&t=5m30s
That's just a headscratcher.
I have an 2018 MBP with an i9/Vega20 - I can testify how terrible their thermals are. But given that this thing can be passively cooled - even apple crappy venting will probably do a decent job with this chip. Need to see what happens when the reviews land.
As a previous macbook pro top model owner, with the huge amount of dysfunctional features it had, I'd be totally in for a mac book air.
Air only has passive cooling; Pro has a fan.
Oh I am sure judging by how excellent MacBook Pros cool things, having passive cooling will make no difference at all. I mean, during summer I put my MacBook on a large ice block that I freeze over night, this way I can maintain acceptable build & development speeds during the day. Should work the same for the MacBook Air. No?
It will be equally as hot, but quieter.
So the Pro should be able to maintain higher clock speeds for longer, is the assumption?
The emphasis here being on the word "should". I wouldn't buy just yet until some third party has published a sustained load/heat test. Apple have sucked at this for quite some years now, it's folly to touch a MacBook for anything remotely compute-intensive
Only when you compare apples to oranges, but this is an apples to apples comparison. Same underlying silicon, almost identical configuration, different chassis. It's impossible for the Pro not to outperform the Air when the only substantial difference for performance is TDP and we have zero reason to believe that heat-pipe + fan would be outperform by passive cooling of all things.
Agreed, the Pro's cooling should be better. However, I think it's worth waiting and seeing. There might not be that big of a difference in the end (e.g. both are uncharacteristically well designed and run fine; or conversely both are so badly thermally throttled that no serious intensive tasks can be performed) in which case other factors could end up being more significant.
Apple has always sucked when it came to cooling. The Apple /// and Lisa were plagued by “IC creep” where, due to heat expansion from inadequate cooling, the ICs would wiggle out of their sockets ever so slowly.
Yes, that is almost certainly the case. They didn’t mention clock speed at all though so we’ll have to wait for real-world tests.
They have said exactly that multiple times in the presentation. Mini & MBP will maintain higher clock speeds indefinitely.
Depending on benchmarks sounds like another win for the MBA...
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That's some serious doublespeak right there
Not having the Touch Bar is worth at least several hundred dollars.
ya, would pay money to get rid of the touch bar for sure.
Yeah, so i don't accidentally trigger Siri all. the. time.
You can solve that problem by going into keyboard settings and changing the "Touch Bar shows" setting to "Expanded Control Strip". Or "F1, F2, etc. keys" if you prefer. Whichever one you set, holding down the "fn" key will temporarily toggle to the other one.
You still don't get the same feel as physical keys, but no Siri, no sliders to adjust volume or brightness, no stuff shifting around as you switch apps.
You still don't get the same feel as physical keys, but no Siri, no sliders to adjust volume or brightness, no stuff shifting around as you switch apps.
You can do that, but keys on glass are still in every way inferior to physical keys.
I didn't claim that this solves all issues someone might have with the touchbar. Just the specific "I keep triggering Siri" issue.
Yes, it's just annoying that the best workaround involves replacing the touch bar functionality with an inferior replica of the physical keys it replaced.
I don't understand how this didn't come up in usability testing
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You can disable the siri in Touch Bar and configure it to have the buttons you want. We do that to every new laptop we give our team, it's great.
At least it doesn't show ads, yet.
The M1 chip will for sure sustain higher performance in the Pro because it has active cooling.
Apple ramps their chip performance dramatically and frequently in iOS devices; that’s how they hit such high benchmarks but also deliver long battery life and stay cool. Those chips spend most of their time not performing.
In such a system, having “the same chip” in two different devices will not tell you much about their relative performance under real world loads.
Apple ramps their chip performance dramatically and frequently in iOS devices; that’s how they hit such high benchmarks but also deliver long battery life and stay cool. Those chips spend most of their time not performing.
In such a system, having “the same chip” in two different devices will not tell you much about their relative performance under real world loads.
I literally had to cancel orders after noticing this as well, was very confusing even for a developer.
Also, what's the difference between the left and the right versions? just the storage? can't you configure the storage? why do they make it look like there are 2 different options.
Also, what's the difference between the left and the right versions? just the storage? can't you configure the storage? why do they make it look like there are 2 different options.
what's the difference between the left and the right versions
Just the storage. They're suggested configurations, presented to make it easy for the masses, not the HN tinkerers.
Just the storage. They're suggested configurations, presented to make it easy for the masses, not the HN tinkerers.
For Air, the one on the right has one more GPU core too.
You get 100 more nits of brightness, active cooling (= more performance), better speakers & more battery with the 13" pro.
Are there any differences in screens? I have no idea but would guess that the Pro has a better screen with more accurate colors.
tech specs say 500nits on the pro and 400nits on the air, so its possible they are different screens but also possible they just have different backlights
The larger chassis allows for better cooling and more battery. Their comments would make it seem that the same processor in the MacBook Pro performs better because of more thermal headroom due to active cooling. The Air is fanless.
Is there a market for aftermarket coolers on MBA?
There's a market for aftermarket coolers on laptops universally - I sometimes see laptops on those fan pads?
A quality laptop fan pad is about $20-$30.
I wonder how useful they are. I used to have a gaming laptop in the early 2010s and the nicest cooling fan I could find, but it only dropped the temperature down by 2-3 degrees
My suspicion is that they're not useful at all. Once I bought such a cooler pad, and placed a 2011 13" MacBook on it. Then I benchmarked it (i.e. max out the CPU), and measured the sensor "CPU Near". I could not measure a difference between the cooler pad on or off.
I can't remember the brand of the cooler pad, but it had two 10 cm fans.
I can't remember the brand of the cooler pad, but it had two 10 cm fans.
ºF or ºC? - fair difference there.
Goo point. -- Celsius.
Much more worthwhile, in that case. A couple degrees Fahrenheit means nothing IMHO but a couple degrees Celsius is at least physically noticeable. :)
Likely to be 10w TDP on MacBook Air versus 35w on MacBook Pro.
So lower clock speeds on the CPU/GPU and more use of the low-power cores.
So lower clock speeds on the CPU/GPU and more use of the low-power cores.
Presumably a bigger battery on the Pro?
MBP will have a fan, so presumably it will avoid thermal throttling (or throttle less).
Same screen?
The pro has ports on both sides
Apple mentioned in the event that these Macs will have hardware verified secure boot. Since I’m not very knowledgeable in this area, can someone explain (or even try to guess) what this would/could mean for running Linux on these? I use Macs way beyond Apple’s support timeframe with OS X/macOS, and Linux is the one that runs on some of the older Macs and provides adequate security and security related software updates.
I don't know the answer^, but how old is your current old Mac hardware? I don't know about the desktops, but Macbooks from 2016 are not well supported hardware-wise in Linux - things like no WiFi even. There was a good GitHub repo tracking it for up to I think the first touchbar Pro, and basically it was dismal then and only got worse (according to repo owner who consequently stopped bothering iirc).
So.. depending what you want to do on these older machines, my point is that this may be the least of your worries.
^(though I think it's fine, because it's the reverse that would be a problem? Bad news for 'hackintosh' if all supported versions of macOS can expect secure boot hardware, I think)
So.. depending what you want to do on these older machines, my point is that this may be the least of your worries.
^(though I think it's fine, because it's the reverse that would be a problem? Bad news for 'hackintosh' if all supported versions of macOS can expect secure boot hardware, I think)
> I don't know about the desktops, but Macbooks from 2016 are not well supported hardware-wise in Linux
Which is unfortunate, because the 2015 models make great Linux machines.
The introduction of the T2 chip made proper Linux support much harder to achieve.
Which is unfortunate, because the 2015 models make great Linux machines.
The introduction of the T2 chip made proper Linux support much harder to achieve.
Until 2019 Apple sold 13 inch MBPs without the touchbar, and these models did not have a T2 chip. They are still miserable computers to run Linux on, although I think the original 2016 touchbar-less MBP performs better than all the rest, albeit (IIRC) no working audio, very poor suspend/resume functionality, and until pretty recently no keyboard/trackpad functionality.
Oh, and Apple's NVMe interface is non-compliant. This is widely reported as Apple locking Linux out with the T2 chip, but that's not really true. The T2 chip will by default prevent unsigned kernels from reading/writing to the SSD, but this can be disabled.
Even if it's disabled, the controller is not standards compliant, and Linux won't see the underlying block device. I saw some diffs floating around on github a few years ago that fixed it, but I don't think it was ever mainlined.
Basically, post-2016, Apple seems to have incorporated even more custom (and undocumented) hardware that running alternative OSes on them is basically impossible. Windows works because of the Apple-provided HAL + drivers for WinNT.
Oh, and Apple's NVMe interface is non-compliant. This is widely reported as Apple locking Linux out with the T2 chip, but that's not really true. The T2 chip will by default prevent unsigned kernels from reading/writing to the SSD, but this can be disabled.
Even if it's disabled, the controller is not standards compliant, and Linux won't see the underlying block device. I saw some diffs floating around on github a few years ago that fixed it, but I don't think it was ever mainlined.
Basically, post-2016, Apple seems to have incorporated even more custom (and undocumented) hardware that running alternative OSes on them is basically impossible. Windows works because of the Apple-provided HAL + drivers for WinNT.
Even in Bootcamp Apple did not bother to expose all hardware to Windows . The touchpad is reported as a mouse with a scroll wheel, no option to enable hardware encryption or to use Touch ID to unlock.
Why would you expect Touch ID to work on a windows machine?
As far as I know it’s only available on Apple OSes.
As far as I know it’s only available on Apple OSes.
Windows supports various bio-metric logins and provides rather generic API. Some manufacturers use that to provide login based on veins in a finger, not fingerprints. Apple could have implemented those API.
I have a MacBookPro15,2 (2019, with T2), on which I duel boot Arch Linux. It is perfectly usable. The hardware support is not great. In particular, resuming from suspend is very slow, and I haven't gotten the built-in mic to work. And getting the system to work did require using a patched Linux kernel installed from Github. So not easy, but possible.
Your claims about "dismal then and only got worse" are unfounded. The repository you refer to is still active. https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux If anything, activity has slowed down in these threads because it was figured out how to make it work.
Even among people who run Linux on these MacBooks, the general recommendation is to keep a macOS partition around for stability. Some of the value you get from any Apple computer is in the software. If you intend on instantly installing Linux or Windows as your only OS, this probably isn't the computer for you. But if you want to or have to use Linux sometimes, these T2-chip Macs can do it.
Your claims about "dismal then and only got worse" are unfounded. The repository you refer to is still active. https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux If anything, activity has slowed down in these threads because it was figured out how to make it work.
Even among people who run Linux on these MacBooks, the general recommendation is to keep a macOS partition around for stability. Some of the value you get from any Apple computer is in the software. If you intend on instantly installing Linux or Windows as your only OS, this probably isn't the computer for you. But if you want to or have to use Linux sometimes, these T2-chip Macs can do it.
I was referring to the hardware support, not the (stellar) efforts of Dunedan and contributors!
Am I wrong to think the T2 means Linux can't access the built in hard drive and you are dual booting from an external drive?
Yes. There’s nothing preventing me from accessing the internal SSD.
> There was a good GitHub repo tracking it for up to I think the first touchbar Pro, and basically it was dismal then and only got worse (according to repo owner who consequently stopped bothering iirc).
As I'm said repo owner, let me chime in here quickly to shed some light on that.
I used a 13" MacBook Pro 2016 for 3 years with Debian as my sole machine for work. When ordering it back in 2016 I wasn't sure how difficult it'd be to get Linux properly working on it, as at that point it was only known that it's possible to boot Linux, but nobody had figured out even such basics like support for the integrated input devices or the NVMe SSD yet. However as I was using Linux on Macs since 2006 I figured it'd be somehow possible to get it to work for me.
Fortunately I wasn't the only one serious about running Linux these 2016+ MacBooks, as I have very limited knowledge of the required lowlevel programming skills. What I did was to provide and moderate a Github repository (https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux) as a central place to document and discuss of the status of hardware support for these MacBook Pros, some little patches and lots of feedback and bug reports. A big shoutout to all contributors who did an incredible job at reverse engineering, implementing and upstreaming drivers for various components! That's quite an achievement for such a complex device with no public hardware documentation at all!
After a while it turned out that support for certain components would be rather difficult to get working flawlessly. As an example, even at the end of the 3 years I used the MacBook Pro, I had to use an external adapter to be able to use WiFi. With that in mind I started to reconsider why I bought Apple products: I bought them because of their superior hardware quality. But if I'm not able to use the hardware as intended, what's the point of paying a premium for Apple products? And let's just not talk about the butterfly keyboard or the horrible thermal management. So when it came to replacing my MacBook Pro, I decided to go with a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon instead. It's not perfect, but I'm way happier now than I ever was with the MacBook Pro 2016, as the hardware just works.
As I don't own any 2016+ Apple device anymore, the help for further Linux support I can provide is limited, but I didn't stop bothering at all! I'm still actively managing said Github repository, but activity in general has significantly dropped there over time. Either the devices work well enough for other people now or they also replaced them with non-Apple hardware.
As I'm said repo owner, let me chime in here quickly to shed some light on that.
I used a 13" MacBook Pro 2016 for 3 years with Debian as my sole machine for work. When ordering it back in 2016 I wasn't sure how difficult it'd be to get Linux properly working on it, as at that point it was only known that it's possible to boot Linux, but nobody had figured out even such basics like support for the integrated input devices or the NVMe SSD yet. However as I was using Linux on Macs since 2006 I figured it'd be somehow possible to get it to work for me.
Fortunately I wasn't the only one serious about running Linux these 2016+ MacBooks, as I have very limited knowledge of the required lowlevel programming skills. What I did was to provide and moderate a Github repository (https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux) as a central place to document and discuss of the status of hardware support for these MacBook Pros, some little patches and lots of feedback and bug reports. A big shoutout to all contributors who did an incredible job at reverse engineering, implementing and upstreaming drivers for various components! That's quite an achievement for such a complex device with no public hardware documentation at all!
After a while it turned out that support for certain components would be rather difficult to get working flawlessly. As an example, even at the end of the 3 years I used the MacBook Pro, I had to use an external adapter to be able to use WiFi. With that in mind I started to reconsider why I bought Apple products: I bought them because of their superior hardware quality. But if I'm not able to use the hardware as intended, what's the point of paying a premium for Apple products? And let's just not talk about the butterfly keyboard or the horrible thermal management. So when it came to replacing my MacBook Pro, I decided to go with a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon instead. It's not perfect, but I'm way happier now than I ever was with the MacBook Pro 2016, as the hardware just works.
As I don't own any 2016+ Apple device anymore, the help for further Linux support I can provide is limited, but I didn't stop bothering at all! I'm still actively managing said Github repository, but activity in general has significantly dropped there over time. Either the devices work well enough for other people now or they also replaced them with non-Apple hardware.
Yeah, I think you mean this repo:
https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux
I bought a 2017 MBP hoping the situation would eventually improve but it never did, so I never got around to installing Linux. I'm expecting it'll be even worse for these M1 systems.
I bought a 2017 MBP hoping the situation would eventually improve but it never did, so I never got around to installing Linux. I'm expecting it'll be even worse for these M1 systems.
That's the one, thanks.
It is a shame, it's not something I ever really did (or not for long, for a period I do recall having Arch on my 2013 Air) but I like the idea - I like Apple's hardware, just not the software.
It is a shame, it's not something I ever really did (or not for long, for a period I do recall having Arch on my 2013 Air) but I like the idea - I like Apple's hardware, just not the software.
Oh Apple, why are you doing this, taking freedom from your customers. I don‘t want to use Windows, neither do I want to tinker with Ubuntu. But if you keep going that path, you are forcing your power users to think about migrating to platforms that respect users freedom to do whatever they want to do with their machines.
After two years of using an otherwise beautiful iPad Pro (along with my MBP) I came to realize that a crippled machine that is very limited in how I use a computer is not the future of computing I like. The device collects dust for quite some time as I prefer a computing environment where I use the terminal a lot, where I use my bash and Python scripts a lot to automate, where I use Emacs a lot to write tech docs, do my project planning, writing, automating workflows, and many more things that are not doable on a crippled (iPad)OS.
You keep going toward your vision of a computing platform where your customers are just consumers, not hackers and doers, and us hackers need to look for alternative platforms, most propably Linux.
After two years of using an otherwise beautiful iPad Pro (along with my MBP) I came to realize that a crippled machine that is very limited in how I use a computer is not the future of computing I like. The device collects dust for quite some time as I prefer a computing environment where I use the terminal a lot, where I use my bash and Python scripts a lot to automate, where I use Emacs a lot to write tech docs, do my project planning, writing, automating workflows, and many more things that are not doable on a crippled (iPad)OS.
You keep going toward your vision of a computing platform where your customers are just consumers, not hackers and doers, and us hackers need to look for alternative platforms, most propably Linux.
> neither do I want to tinker with Ubuntu
You can get XPS Developer Edition, System76, Purism, or many other laptop brands (eg. any of these https://elementary.io/store/ with elementaryOS, whose DE should feel fairly familiar to a macOS user) with GNU preinstalled these days.
You can get XPS Developer Edition, System76, Purism, or many other laptop brands (eg. any of these https://elementary.io/store/ with elementaryOS, whose DE should feel fairly familiar to a macOS user) with GNU preinstalled these days.
Although very slowly, this list of companies providing good Linux-ready laptops is growing.
I do wish someone would dare ship something high-end non-amd64 (e.g.: ARM). Kinda like what we're seeing from Apple.
I do wish someone would dare ship something high-end non-amd64 (e.g.: ARM). Kinda like what we're seeing from Apple.
First a high-end ARM chip would have to exist. The 8cx is pretty meh compared to the M1.
Even the M1 isn't appreciably better than an AMD chip, especially not an upcoming 5nm chip.
Yes the iPad is "crippled" in that sense, but I find it's an excellent accessory to a computer. Not everything I do needs a terminal, my Python scripts, favorite text editor, and rapid multitasking. The iPad is a wonderful (albeit expensive) side device for lighter activities on the couch, in the kitchen, or on the go.
It doesn't need to be our only computing device to be appreciated, and not every computing device needs to be powerful.
It doesn't need to be our only computing device to be appreciated, and not every computing device needs to be powerful.
What I am lamenting is the observation that the iPad OS seems to be Apples vision for how computers should work: Crippled, not much user control, just content-consuming devices with Apple controlling every aspect of it. That’s not a personal computer anymore, not a device where we have much control over it.
I'm perfectly happy with the division between "consumer machines" and "creative machines".
I obviously count myself among the people who needs and wants creator capabilities, but for my technologically challenged family and friends there's no reason to learn and manage all the complexities of a classic computer environment if they just want a point of access to youtube, netflix, spotify and social networks.
I still shiver remembering the times of browsers riddled with search bars, trojans and antivirus software slowing computers to a crawl and people who's "good with tech" being dragged to friends' houses to see what's wrong with the computer.
I obviously count myself among the people who needs and wants creator capabilities, but for my technologically challenged family and friends there's no reason to learn and manage all the complexities of a classic computer environment if they just want a point of access to youtube, netflix, spotify and social networks.
I still shiver remembering the times of browsers riddled with search bars, trojans and antivirus software slowing computers to a crawl and people who's "good with tech" being dragged to friends' houses to see what's wrong with the computer.
You can write a book on an iPad. You can make a movie on an iPad. You can draw, sketch and make art on an iPad.
I think it's a bit narrow to call label them content-consuming devices. Of course, they have limitations for activities like programming.
I think it's a bit narrow to call label them content-consuming devices. Of course, they have limitations for activities like programming.
Same here. I can't stand macOS, the interface is terrible and it's an awful development environment.
But the iPad is an excellent companion, since I use that to scrible around, consume media, photo editing, keep my music sheets, and all that stuff that would suck on Linux.
But the iPad is an excellent companion, since I use that to scrible around, consume media, photo editing, keep my music sheets, and all that stuff that would suck on Linux.
>Oh Apple, why are you doing this, taking freedom from your customers
Because they can. Most other laptop manufacturers are producing garbage. Vaunted brands like Thinkpad and Dell are even failing to keep pace.
My wife's 2019 Dell XPS 13 is awful to use. The touchpad is horrendous, and I'm not buying Lenovo after the Superfish thing.
Because they can. Most other laptop manufacturers are producing garbage. Vaunted brands like Thinkpad and Dell are even failing to keep pace.
My wife's 2019 Dell XPS 13 is awful to use. The touchpad is horrendous, and I'm not buying Lenovo after the Superfish thing.
Apple has always be proprietary and always will. Apple II and Macintosh Plus days, they sold all their own peripherals.
I had a Dell XPS 13 1645 that had a great display, but everything else about it was awful.
Well, in reality, you can't be a purist or you'll end up with nothing. The Lenovo T480 is solid and has two batteries.
I had a Dell XPS 13 1645 that had a great display, but everything else about it was awful.
Well, in reality, you can't be a purist or you'll end up with nothing. The Lenovo T480 is solid and has two batteries.
What? The Apple II was a fantastically open machine! It even came with the circuit schematic and ROM source code right in the manual! It had lots of slots and there was a massive third-party ecosystem. It was when Jobs got to design machines with the Apple III/Lisa/Mac that things closed up.
Even if you could turn off secure boot, Linux doesn't have drivers for Apple Silicon. Maybe in 2030 someone will port Linux to a jailbroken M1 Mac.
Linux does support many ARM architectures already, and even supports the x86/x64 version of Secure Boot in some configurations. If Apple wants to either allow their Secure Boot to be disabled or to allow end users or Linux distros to somehow get their own keys trusted, I'm sure the port can happen in the coming $smallnum years with enough interest + resources + time. (But not $smallnum months, sadly.)
None of this, of course, is to pretend it's easy.
None of this, of course, is to pretend it's easy.
No Bootcamp for Apple Silicon Macs, you can't install any other Operating System on it. But you can run arm linux in a virtual machine.
So, a locked bootloader with someone else's public key as the only one trusted? Can you even call that a computer?
Well, certainly not a personal computer. :/
Apple no longer makes general-purpose computers. They only make pretty, locked-down, computerlike appliances.
The margins on general-purpose computers are simply too thin to sustain a $1T company.
The margins on general-purpose computers are simply too thin to sustain a $1T company.
Maybe, just maybe, it shouldn't be a $1T company? Maybe it should once again become a company that puts its customers and their experience before profits?
People are frustrated with technology lately. Even non-tech people. Apple has everything it would need to change that, but it decides to contribute to technology becoming ever more frustrating time and time again instead.
People are frustrated with technology lately. Even non-tech people. Apple has everything it would need to change that, but it decides to contribute to technology becoming ever more frustrating time and time again instead.
Agreed. But I can't think of an example of a company that ever voluntarily downsized. Downsizing usually happens because a new competitor arises that makes a product customers prefer. That's a very difficult proposition in the personal computer space.
If history is a lesson, any company that arises to compete with established players, gets acquired by them. And it's a shame no companies actually decline these acquisitions.
>no companies actually decline these acquisitions.
Not true. Yahoo made 2 separate offers to acquire Google, and an established social-media company offered to acquire Facebook (for a billion dollars IIRC).
Not true. Yahoo made 2 separate offers to acquire Google, and an established social-media company offered to acquire Facebook (for a billion dollars IIRC).
The bootloader is not locked, why continuing to claim that over and over when Apple talked about it at WWDC?
Craig Federighi Said himself that they don’t boot other operating systems.
Could you link the talk where they said it can run binaries not signed by Apple? The only thing I could find is where they still allow you to boot older versions which they don’t let you download anymore. To keep the actual mac experience.
It's because they don't want to support drivers for other OSes.
See this WWDC session: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686
and this manpage: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/
See this WWDC session: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686
and this manpage: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/
Can’t find anything in both documents which allows booting of non Apple signed Software. The only thing I See there is something like SecureBoot on PCs, where Apple would need to sign your boot loader in order to be able to boot it.
--permissive-security is the setting that you want. You are then able to enroll hashes of unsigned kernels with kmutil.
Kmutil is only there to load kernel extensions? Or did that change with Big Sur?
It changed. You use kmutil create to create the artifacts and add the hash to the Secure Boot policy. (--help at https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/mN3Z2kfJWy/, no manpage)
TIL this has a man page
I haven’t watched anything. Are you saying you can boot another OS? Can you point me to where I can read or hear more about this?
It is no longer a Personal Computer. And it is a security disaster if you cannot control own hardware of your computer. It should be made illegal for Apple to operate like this. User MUST have full control of the computer. It is user right and should be human right. Then only reason I used Macs is their respecting ability to use any OS I want if I Want.
This exact issue is something Stallman[1] and others have talked about for a while now[2].
[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html
[2] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html
[2] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
I use a mac for work (and paid for by work) but refuse to spend my money on something I can't use the way I would like to use it. I think that these companies shouldn't be able to lock you out of you using your tractor/car/computer like everyone seems to be moving towards. It's a real shame. I understand if they want to void the warranty because a user blew away some critical firmware, but that's another ball of wax and it's on the user to suffer the consequences.
Agree wholeheartedly!
Void my warranty, boot with a scary splash screen, whatever, but don’t lock me out of the thing I ostensibly own. Or, maybe change the “buy” button to a “license to use” button in your store.
Void my warranty, boot with a scary splash screen, whatever, but don’t lock me out of the thing I ostensibly own. Or, maybe change the “buy” button to a “license to use” button in your store.
Betteridge's Law of Comments
Looks like you can supply your own unsigned kernel to boot something else.
kmutil lets you do it apparently: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/mN3Z2kfJWy/ and bputil lets you disable the signature checking of the kernel https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/
kmutil lets you do it apparently: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/mN3Z2kfJWy/ and bputil lets you disable the signature checking of the kernel https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/
IIRC at WWC Apple said it would still be possible to boot unsigned OS, but it would show some kind of warning.
This is the best news I’ve heard all day, thank you!
I’m totally fine with a chromebook-style unsigned boot warning.
I’m totally fine with a chromebook-style unsigned boot warning.
During WWDC they said you can't use any other operating System at boot time, only through virtual Machines.
Update: here a podcast with Craig Federighi on that matter https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU
Update: here a podcast with Craig Federighi on that matter https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU
Link with timestamp:
https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3772
"we're not direct booting an alternate operating system, it's purely virtualization"
"we're not direct booting an alternate operating system, it's purely virtualization"
You can, they are just saying Bootcamp isn’t a thing.
Why not just support a company that doesn't do this crap?
I would happily.
Who else is making 8 core, 18 hour battery life laptops that have >200ppi displays and weigh <=1290g?
The choice is now performance xor privacy.
Who else is making 8 core, 18 hour battery life laptops that have >200ppi displays and weigh <=1290g?
The choice is now performance xor privacy.
Because most people don’t care?
Why not legislate companies to not do this crap?
I'd be tempted to buy one if this ends up being the case
But what would you run on it? What OS besides macOS has support for running on Apple Silicon?
What's the meaningful difference from other ARM chips which would make this impossible?
Apple's not going to ship drivers for Linux, and it's a SoC. So someone needs to somehow write an open source driver for Apple's proprietary black box of a GPU.
I suspect very little will work at all if someone can get Linux to boot on one, and it will be a very lengthy endeavor to get things up to being usable.
I suspect very little will work at all if someone can get Linux to boot on one, and it will be a very lengthy endeavor to get things up to being usable.
Which ARM chip based device can run linux without the manufacturer's drivers?
The bootloader and GPU mostly.
The reality is that we can't answer this until we have some hands on.
It really depends on whether their secure boot architecture can be disabled (unlikely knowing apple), or allow adding ones own keys (unlikely). Bootcamp probably won't happen since windows does not support the architecture: they'll be pushing people to use VMs.
They might also provide some untrusted path to boot without it being able to access certain secure features. I wish they did this, but also won't keep my breath!
That said, the kernel itself needs to have support for the hardware architecture, and then drivers for all the new hardware they're pushing out. I don't expect this to be soon, though I'd definitely be willing to sponsor anyone willing to work on this.
It really depends on whether their secure boot architecture can be disabled (unlikely knowing apple), or allow adding ones own keys (unlikely). Bootcamp probably won't happen since windows does not support the architecture: they'll be pushing people to use VMs.
They might also provide some untrusted path to boot without it being able to access certain secure features. I wish they did this, but also won't keep my breath!
That said, the kernel itself needs to have support for the hardware architecture, and then drivers for all the new hardware they're pushing out. I don't expect this to be soon, though I'd definitely be willing to sponsor anyone willing to work on this.
> Bootcamp probably won't happen since windows does not support the architecture
Windows supports ARM and has for a while. But still probably Bootcamp's days are over, yeah.
Windows supports ARM and has for a while. But still probably Bootcamp's days are over, yeah.
It seems that Mac has now iPhone-based boot system.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOSBeta/comments/jn7wbf/heres_the...
https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOSBeta/comments/jn7wbf/heres_the...
The difference is that you can turn off checks on the Mac.
Probably something similar to their secure boot with their phone iBoot.
https://www.theiphonewiki.com/wiki/IBoot_(Bootloader)
Take action: buy a Mac, and return it. If they want to know why, tell them¹.
Repeat for every new model.
¹ They will have to give you a full refund: it's your right as a consumer. Note that this may not work for companies.
Repeat for every new model.
¹ They will have to give you a full refund: it's your right as a consumer. Note that this may not work for companies.
Great, very productive, and mature.
You probably turn around and then criticize people for contributing to the e-waste problem, and polluting the planet with carbon emissions.
Can't be satisfied just not to buy someone's offering, you actively need to go sabotage them.
Actually sounds quite right-wing in philosophy.
You probably turn around and then criticize people for contributing to the e-waste problem, and polluting the planet with carbon emissions.
Can't be satisfied just not to buy someone's offering, you actively need to go sabotage them.
Actually sounds quite right-wing in philosophy.
Who downvoted your comment and why ?
This is a good comment and good strategy to teach them a lesson. Without some efforts those companies would not recall moral values. Richard Stallman was warning us about this development long ago and he was right. Cripled hardware is useless for hacking mind.
[deleted]
Because it’s just creating e-waste, and if you do it enough they’ll stop selling you things.
"How do we get these companies to stop behaving like this?"
"Vote with your wallet!"
<votes with wallet by doing as OP suggests above. Mind you, NOT buying is noise - buying and returning is signal>
"Not like that!!"
"Vote with your wallet!"
<votes with wallet by doing as OP suggests above. Mind you, NOT buying is noise - buying and returning is signal>
"Not like that!!"
Buying and returning is just a petty, wasteful thing to do.
Dude they'll just sell them to someone else. It doesn't change anything, the material and resource cost has already been paid. Stop making this about something it absolutely is not.
Companies DO care when people return something, because that is pure signal. "I got it because I thought I would like it and I don't" is a much different signal than "I have no idea what you think because I never interacted with you". That is likely one of the most effective ways to make a company sit up and take notice, the return rate of a product is a key indicator of its success.
I really don't see that there's anything to disagree with there. Loving Apple, as you may, doesn't make the above point wrong.
Companies DO care when people return something, because that is pure signal. "I got it because I thought I would like it and I don't" is a much different signal than "I have no idea what you think because I never interacted with you". That is likely one of the most effective ways to make a company sit up and take notice, the return rate of a product is a key indicator of its success.
I really don't see that there's anything to disagree with there. Loving Apple, as you may, doesn't make the above point wrong.
Do you think Apple is just going to take the computer you touched, turn around, and sell it to another person? No, they’re going to take the whole thing apart, replace all the consumables and user-facing parts, the sell it as refurbished. And that’s the best case: they might have to strip it for parts or trash it depending on what it was that you bought.
This has nothing to do with a love of Apple or anything, and everything to do with “you’re abusing a program that they are going to either ban you from, or remove because you abused it too much”.
This has nothing to do with a love of Apple or anything, and everything to do with “you’re abusing a program that they are going to either ban you from, or remove because you abused it too much”.
and degrating Personal Computer into machine under control of someone else, attacking rights of the person and stripping people from privacy completely is not a wasteful thing to do? I mean, it's a garbage by defintion and sure, it takes time for people to understand this, but this machine is useless by design for freedom respecting society, it's not a waste? it's a huge waste of resources I would say. Returning product doesn't add to this too much of waste, it simply tells what it is.
Dude, you’re arguing about control to the wrong person. Apple knows about this already and you returning a bunch of devices isn’t going to get them to change their policy.
I am not buying apple stuff for 5 years already, becasue I can't stand stupidity and their macbooks pro woould just cripple my abilities and mobility with those stupid dongles, unupgradable memory and idiotic touchbars.
The only reason I could bare some of their hw is becase I knew I can put Linux when I get enough of it, and now what?
I am not buying, sophisticated people are not buying and it doesn't help so in my perspective IF something is ever going to change their policy is returning products to SEND A MESSAGE. Other option is to wait untill some dumbo get it when it'll be too late, like it was when S.Jobs has to return to save them..
Or you sugest even more strong action then returning?
The only reason I could bare some of their hw is becase I knew I can put Linux when I get enough of it, and now what?
I am not buying, sophisticated people are not buying and it doesn't help so in my perspective IF something is ever going to change their policy is returning products to SEND A MESSAGE. Other option is to wait untill some dumbo get it when it'll be too late, like it was when S.Jobs has to return to save them..
Or you sugest even more strong action then returning?
This is intended. They should stop selling things that attack privacy and freedom of a person, or this concept is not your priority and you are ok to have computer controlled COMPLETELY by someone else, which means ZERO privacy?
PS: Well, this one is downvoted too. Looks like some lost even a sense of what PERSONAL computer means.
OK. Keep downvoting! it's a good strategy to silence someone when there are no valid arguments.
PS: Well, this one is downvoted too. Looks like some lost even a sense of what PERSONAL computer means.
OK. Keep downvoting! it's a good strategy to silence someone when there are no valid arguments.
They’ll stop selling the device to you or accepting your returns. So you haven’t really done much.
Also, people who complain about downvotes usually attract more. I’d suggest not doing that. Claims that there are “no valid arguments” against your position rather than nobody wanting to deal with you are, well, absurd.
Also, people who complain about downvotes usually attract more. I’d suggest not doing that. Claims that there are “no valid arguments” against your position rather than nobody wanting to deal with you are, well, absurd.
If many people will do that it's a different story. May be it's ok with you and you see no danger in their strategy but I see this issue as huge attack on freedom and rights, including right for privacy. History have many examples about how people protected their rights and freedom. Returning product is very light way to send a proper message.
Recently I see more and more perfectly valid comments to be downvoted and I do not like it. If this forum will become mob controlled with bullying then I see no reason why bright people would stay here. If one doesn't want ot deal with comment, usually one moves on, like I do. But if argument is perfectly valid and instead of answer I see one simply downvotes it is bullying as it appears.
Recently I see more and more perfectly valid comments to be downvoted and I do not like it. If this forum will become mob controlled with bullying then I see no reason why bright people would stay here. If one doesn't want ot deal with comment, usually one moves on, like I do. But if argument is perfectly valid and instead of answer I see one simply downvotes it is bullying as it appears.
i personally prefer secure hardware at the expense of not being able to play around with other OSes - i am sure i am not alone
You can have both. Users should control the keys. Not an insurmountable problem.
I also prefer secure hardware, but I find macOS completely useless for work.
While I can appreciate that some see other-OSs as something of a curiosity, for many of us it's a big deal-breaker, and it's a shame Apple is not willing to provide their hardware to so many potential clients who simply don't want their software.
While I can appreciate that some see other-OSs as something of a curiosity, for many of us it's a big deal-breaker, and it's a shame Apple is not willing to provide their hardware to so many potential clients who simply don't want their software.
What advantage do you see to "secure hardware", I'm unaware of any recent Mac security issue that would have been prevented by it. It gives Apple a lot more control over the device but I don't see any advantage to the user.
One advantage I could see would be lowering value for thieves, if it worked out like locked phones that cannot just be wiped and resold.
It means that you need to find a vulnerability in bootloader and exploit it to break free from Apple secure garden. Linux works on ARM for years, so I'm sure that it won't be impossible to port it over, but whether enthusiasts will do it or not is another question, as you would need to write drivers for proprietary GPU and storage to make it useful.
You can turn off secure boot.
I don't think so.
You can, there’s a bputil command for it I believe.
Here's WWDC talk claiming that you can't: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3772
I'm talking about ARM macs, not Intel ones.
I'm talking about ARM macs, not Intel ones.
That’s not really what I’d call a “WWDC talk”, but sure, it mentions that Apple won’t provide Boot Camp, and that they are running their OS demos using virtualization. I didn’t see a claim that they won’t let you reduce the boot security.
"We're not direct booting an alternate operating system, it's purely virtualization. Hypervisors can be very efficient, so the need to direct boot shouldn't really be a concern."
For me that quote means that they're not allowing booting any alternate operating system and they expect developers to use virtualization if other operating system is needed. I would be happy to be wrong about that.
For me that quote means that they're not allowing booting any alternate operating system and they expect developers to use virtualization if other operating system is needed. I would be happy to be wrong about that.
I understood that as "we weren't booting something else in our demos, we were using virtualization" but not "we can't boot anything else". I am sure, however, that they would like you to use virtualization instead of direct booting.
I'll be sticking with my 2015 Macbook Pro Retina 13". Great machine, not too thin, heavy enough, no stupid touch screen, usb ports, great keyboard. Everything apple has done since hasn't compared.
The only bad thing about the current 16" is the Touch Bar. There is a lot to like about the rest though.
I agree here. I really don't understand some of the bashing that happens every single time the Macbook Pros come up in HN comments.
I was a longtime happy owner of a 2015 15" MBP until earlier this year when I decided it was time to upgrade to a refurbished 2019 16" MBP. I was a bit nervous at first but I have to say that I have no major complaints, other than the fact that I wish I had F keys instead of the touchbar. Contrary to everyone else, I really like the keyboard.
As for solving the touchpad issue, I use Pock [1] which I read about on HN. It removes the need for using a slider every time I want to adjust the volume or brightness and lets me control Spotify and see what song is currently playing.
I also have a 2018 15" MBP for work. If you believed the comments here you'd think that I am unable to type or use the damn thing. Honestly, after 1 week of use I'm already used to the keyboard. Not having an escape key kind of sucked, but I have rebound caps lock to escape on all of my Macbooks and enjoy that even more than having an escape key.
My other complaint is that the trackpad is a bit too large - I find myself accidentally hitting it sometimes and it just seems excessive. Finally, it's a shame that you can't mess with the battery/RAM/SSD yourself but unfortunately that's more of a trend for the industry than just Apple.
Overall I'm a totally happy user on both the 2018 and 2019 Macbook Pros. I was quite nervous about the possibility of having to use a Windows PC for work when I started my new job. And don't even get me started on having to use a Pixelbook at Google.
[1] https://pock.dev/
I was a longtime happy owner of a 2015 15" MBP until earlier this year when I decided it was time to upgrade to a refurbished 2019 16" MBP. I was a bit nervous at first but I have to say that I have no major complaints, other than the fact that I wish I had F keys instead of the touchbar. Contrary to everyone else, I really like the keyboard.
As for solving the touchpad issue, I use Pock [1] which I read about on HN. It removes the need for using a slider every time I want to adjust the volume or brightness and lets me control Spotify and see what song is currently playing.
I also have a 2018 15" MBP for work. If you believed the comments here you'd think that I am unable to type or use the damn thing. Honestly, after 1 week of use I'm already used to the keyboard. Not having an escape key kind of sucked, but I have rebound caps lock to escape on all of my Macbooks and enjoy that even more than having an escape key.
My other complaint is that the trackpad is a bit too large - I find myself accidentally hitting it sometimes and it just seems excessive. Finally, it's a shame that you can't mess with the battery/RAM/SSD yourself but unfortunately that's more of a trend for the industry than just Apple.
Overall I'm a totally happy user on both the 2018 and 2019 Macbook Pros. I was quite nervous about the possibility of having to use a Windows PC for work when I started my new job. And don't even get me started on having to use a Pixelbook at Google.
[1] https://pock.dev/
> Contrary to everyone else, I really like the keyboard.
Lot of people like it, they just don't post about it.
Mine has a bunch of keys that print 2 or 3 times when I press the key once (the issue that everybody eventually get with the model I have) but I still prefer that flat keyboard to the old one. Takes a few days to get used to but then it's great.
I'm using https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky which fix the issue with the broken keys.
Lot of people like it, they just don't post about it.
Mine has a bunch of keys that print 2 or 3 times when I press the key once (the issue that everybody eventually get with the model I have) but I still prefer that flat keyboard to the old one. Takes a few days to get used to but then it's great.
I'm using https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky which fix the issue with the broken keys.
I wonder how many people are informing their opinions solely from the gross incompetence exhibited by Apple with your mentioned double tapping keys issue. I seem to recall that they have fixed it in newer models, but I wouldn't be surprised if it still persists.
I hate to admit it since I've drunk the mechanical keyboard koolaid, but I like the mbp flat keyboard. I easily prefer it to the 2015 keyboard, which imo is really nothing special (at least it doesn't gunk up). I hear people say great things about the thinkpad keyboard, but from my little experience with it, I'd still rank the mbp flat keyboard higher.
I hate to admit it since I've drunk the mechanical keyboard koolaid, but I like the mbp flat keyboard. I easily prefer it to the 2015 keyboard, which imo is really nothing special (at least it doesn't gunk up). I hear people say great things about the thinkpad keyboard, but from my little experience with it, I'd still rank the mbp flat keyboard higher.
Yea, Apple has been posting record Macbook sales.
The 2019 16inch keyboard has a different style keyboard I believe.
About the slider. You can tap-and-hold to quick access the slider.
But you can also do a quick swipe left/right on the button to a quick increase/decrease just like a tap.
I actually love the slider though. I hated it at first.
But you can also do a quick swipe left/right on the button to a quick increase/decrease just like a tap.
I actually love the slider though. I hated it at first.
Thanks for the tip about pock.dev. I've been rocking GC-BTT. A bit cumbersome to setup but love the functionality:
https://community.folivora.ai/t/goldenchaos-btt-the-complete...
With BTT and GoldenChaos you can swipe anywhere on the Touchbar with two fingers to change the volume, and with three fingers to change the brightness of the display.
The 2019 mbp got rid of the butterfly keyboard. You have a normal keyboard thats why you like it.
Unless there is a separate late 2019 one.
Unless there is a separate late 2019 one.
> [1] https://pock.dev/
Looks useful! Thanks.
Looks useful! Thanks.
It's fine for who love, but the problem is there's no alternative choice with macOS.
I use the 2020 macbook air personally and 16in professionally and the keyboard drives me insane, to the point I bought a magic keyboard to be able to function without screaming at my computer for accidentally turning my video camera on yet again during a meeting. I really wish they would have a no touch bar option, because I could use more power but still be able to touch type. Touch bar is the worst technological "improvement" I've ever come across.
Did you know that you can change what buttons are on the Touch Bar? You can make it almost behave the same as other keyboard by having it always show F-keys.
https://support.apple.com/en-qa/guide/mac-help/mchl5a63b060/...
https://support.apple.com/en-qa/guide/mac-help/mchl5a63b060/...
the difficulty isn't the content but the fact you can't blindly hit the key reliably. reminds me of back in the day where you could send a composed complete text message from your phone without taking it out of your hoodie pocket in class. not the case anymore in our touch screen world without tactile feedback.
I'm genuinely surprised you are accidentally touching the TouchBar. I have had the 16" for 8 months and haven't done that once.
Must be finger positioning. I hit the TouchBar accidentally several times a day, each of which was infuriating, until I managed to semi-disable it by turning it into a row of inferior function keys.
My company gave me the current 16" late last year, and it's been a piece of junk: suddenly starts to roar without a reason (while plugged in to power supply) so people on a phone conference complain I should switch off the hoover.
Often freezes with not much open other than a few Chrome tabs, O365 and Sublime (not actually DOING much with any of them at the time).
The keyboard is poor, the touchbar is useless but doesn't get in the way that much, the touch pad is too large and disturbs me sometimes while typing source code. The lack of ports means without a hub the whole machine is pretty useless (and that means all users will have to buy an USB-C hub for another $100 - annoying but the real annoyance is to have that hanging of your laptop all the time, and you mustn't forget to pack it, or you're screwed).
I also dislike the 16" form factor compared to 13", as it breaks all my leather bags when I try to carry it (not so relevant anymore in the days of the home office..).
Often freezes with not much open other than a few Chrome tabs, O365 and Sublime (not actually DOING much with any of them at the time).
The keyboard is poor, the touchbar is useless but doesn't get in the way that much, the touch pad is too large and disturbs me sometimes while typing source code. The lack of ports means without a hub the whole machine is pretty useless (and that means all users will have to buy an USB-C hub for another $100 - annoying but the real annoyance is to have that hanging of your laptop all the time, and you mustn't forget to pack it, or you're screwed).
I also dislike the 16" form factor compared to 13", as it breaks all my leather bags when I try to carry it (not so relevant anymore in the days of the home office..).
I was having issues with my 16” until I disabled Turbo Boost. I dunno if it’s specific to the i9 model, but it was running hot and processes were spinning out of control. Since disabling, it runs a lot cooler and I have pretty much zero issues.
http://tbswitcher.rugarciap.com/
http://tbswitcher.rugarciap.com/
Doesn't that more than halve the single-thread performance?
2.4 GHz vs 5.0 GHz on the i9-9980HK and
2.3 GHz vs 4.8 GHz on the i9-9980H
2.4 GHz vs 5.0 GHz on the i9-9980HK and
2.3 GHz vs 4.8 GHz on the i9-9980H
Sure, but this has almost no impact on my daily use. If I really need to run something heavy locally, I just turn it back on.
Ok, so like a reverse Turbo button. You’re running an i4 most of the time (and that’s fine) and sometimes you crank it up to i9 (when the solo begins, to stretch this metaphor to the limit).
Exactly!
I don't think that's a problem with Apple. I have a Dell XPS with an i9 in it, work gave me, i don't use it because idling in Windows the fans ramp up... If I use a laptop I end up using my personal Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme (gen 1) which doesn't have fans trying to take off into space.
The original retina macbooks are still the best. :(
The original retina macbooks are still the best. :(
So what to do if a powerful working machine is needed now, buy the current MBP 16" or go to thinkpad? Disappointed they didn't even upgrade the intel CPU on MBP 16" to the newer version.
I used t490s for a while and that has been my favorite machine since forever. In general ThinkPads are the way to go by the looks of it!
The newest one fixed it enough to satisfy me, i.e. it has a physical escape key again. I never used the rest of the function keys anyway, and I like the customizable nature of the touch bar. The lack of a physical escape key when they first introduced it was my only real gripe.
I was personally really hoping for an Intel 16" refresh today. I'm up for a new laptop at work and it's a little bit of a bummer to drop that much on a year-old machine. Not quite sure what to do at this point.
For those of us who are trying to stay on Mojave (or older), being forced to use the current OS is also a downside.
Is the keyboard less awful now compared to say 2018-19 15" MBPs?
That and the lack of upgradable RAM/ storage.
My work gave me MacBook 16" 2020 and probably the worst business laptop I have ever had. The screen is smudgy and glary, the keyboard is awful, touch bar is a meme, no ports and finally it literally cuts my wrists because it was designed to be looked at not used.
It's an objectively awful laptop.
It's an objectively awful laptop.
You are missing out if you don't have 4 USB-C ports in both sides of your laptop. You can charge your laptop and connect a display with a single cable and without caring about putting the computer in the right direction.
Overall I have positive feelings about my 2019 16" Macbook pro, and USB-C on both sides is definitely part of that... However I have yet to find a decent adapter that will both charge my laptop and output 4k @ 60FPS. I've gone through several iterations now and the closest I've come is a monitor that can connect via USB-C directly, but even then the power output only outputs enough juice when the machine is near-idle... I'm looking forward to the day when I can have a 1 (or even 2) cable dock setup that won't run me $250+. Until that day, I have to use all 4 ports for:
- Charger
- USB C (4k display)
- HDMI (4k Display)
- Ethernet
- Charger
- USB C (4k display)
- HDMI (4k Display)
- Ethernet
Looks like the just announced 13" MBP only has 2 usb-c/thunderbolt ports and they're both on the same side.
Never occurred to me they would go backwards on this, I bet this is one of those overlooked details that will get a lot of notice once people actually start receiving these new laptops.
Never occurred to me they would go backwards on this, I bet this is one of those overlooked details that will get a lot of notice once people actually start receiving these new laptops.
There are two models of 13" MBP - based on the other specs of this new machine, it occupies the lower tier - which in the Intel models also only has two ports.
Presumably, when they fill the higher tier with the new chip it will also have more RAM and more USB ports.
Presumably, when they fill the higher tier with the new chip it will also have more RAM and more USB ports.
don't MacBook mysteriously run slower if you plug in power on the left side instead of the right? I don't remember the cause but I've personally experienced this handedness issue on my mac
My 2017 13” Pro (no touch at) has two USBC ports, both on the same side. It is annoying. Especially after it turned out there is a design flaw in the 2017 Pros where charging on one side tends to trash your battery - guess which side both ports are on?
It’s nice to only have to plug in one cable when I dock it at my desk but I would have greatly preferred not having to replace the battery twice in the three years I owned it due to this. Especially since only one replacement was covered under the warranty thanks to the ‘rona shutting down all the authorized service centers in my city.
It’s nice to only have to plug in one cable when I dock it at my desk but I would have greatly preferred not having to replace the battery twice in the three years I owned it due to this. Especially since only one replacement was covered under the warranty thanks to the ‘rona shutting down all the authorized service centers in my city.
Yeah, but the new MB Pro is a joke, again.
> And it features two Thunderbolt ports with USB 4 support to connect to more peripherals than ever,
> And it features two Thunderbolt ports with USB 4 support to connect to more peripherals than ever,
But I can't get photos off of an SD card without a dongle, and if I trip on the power cord: bye, bye laptop. It's all relative I guess.
Same here, I love this machine. Everything after 2015 went downhill in my view.
Same. This is the best machine I've owned.
I heard yesterday that Apple does not offer a battery replacement for 2014s and you have to go third party. This is an unfortunate development and I'm wondering if I should inquire about getting mine replaced.
I heard yesterday that Apple does not offer a battery replacement for 2014s and you have to go third party. This is an unfortunate development and I'm wondering if I should inquire about getting mine replaced.
I replaced the battery in my 2013 about 11 months ago, FWIW.
I have this machine, it’s a super portable and reliable powerhouse. I recently upgraded to a 2019 15”, mostly to go up to 32G ram, and it feels like a downgrade in terms of design and usability.
Also have this one. It was my first macbook, and I think I got really lucky with getting in when I did. Been going strong for 5 years, and has no difficulty doing anything I need it to do. Only thing I wish I did was get more storage (only got the 128GB model).
FYI the storage is upgradable on these machines (and it's very straightforward to do). It's a nonstandard SSD interface, but you can official modules 2nd hand on ebay quite cheaply these days.
Adding on: this forum thread should be able to get most people started: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/upgrading-2013-2014-mac...
$20 will get you an adapter that allows standard m2 NVMe. I have one on my Amazon wishlist, just haven’t pulled the trigger yet.
Could you share a link to it? Thanks!
Do your research on the adapters though and drives. Some have issues with suspend. Make sure the hardware you add has been tested by some brave youtuber or blogger before buying anything. It looks like the actual act of repacing it isn't that bad though.
I dodged this issue by just buying official apple drives (presumably taken from broken macs).
You can upgrade the SSD yourself with a kit from OWC.
Don't do this, use an NVMe adapter, lets you use faster/cheaper/bigger normal SSDs. I have one myself and it works perfectly.
PS also don't waste your time trying to find ways to repurpose the old Mac SSD, an equivalent SSD or flash drive is cheaper than the enclosures
PS also don't waste your time trying to find ways to repurpose the old Mac SSD, an equivalent SSD or flash drive is cheaper than the enclosures
I bought a PCI adapter for mine. It was cheap (cheaper than the cheapest SSD) and works. The Apple SSD is good enough that it was worth keeping.
Used Apple products maintain their value very well. The 2015 MBP Retina can be found on Ebay between $700-$1000. I've thought about getting one myself.
> not too thin, heavy enough
Wait. What? I can honestly say that I've never thought to myself that a laptop was too thin or too light.
Wait. What? I can honestly say that I've never thought to myself that a laptop was too thin or too light.
The Macbooks that were for many years the smallest and lightest Apple laptops, would be imbalanced and knocked off your lap by placing your hands on it slightly asymmetrically.
If a laptop is too thin and doesn't have weights in it, just having it in your lap while lightly typing makes it wobble around like a boat in a storm.
I think these super thin laptops are ugly, too hot and not ergonomic - also this sacrifices the keyboard. I actually think this model represents the perfect mix of all of these things - thickness (being the thinnest thing I can buy is not a feature for me) - weight (I really don't mind 1.3kg) and keyboard.
Have the same machine, it's starting to chug. Modern web is too heavy for the old dualcore i5, unfortunately.
> Modern web is too heavy for the old dualcore i5, unfortunately.
It's a shame that the web has become this borderline unusable mess. I shouldn't need a quad-core machine with multiple gigabytes of RAM to just read the news online.
It's a shame that the web has become this borderline unusable mess. I shouldn't need a quad-core machine with multiple gigabytes of RAM to just read the news online.
I have the same machine too, and I'm starting to notice this as well. It's absolutely ridiculous that LinkedIn for example makes my machine slow down to the extent it does.
I had that macbook and I was very happy with it. Now I have the latest i7 macbook air without nonsense touchbar and it's been a great replacement.
Now with the new model being even faster and without a fan things look even better for the future.
Now with the new model being even faster and without a fan things look even better for the future.
I've been waiting to upgrade my 2015 for 5 years now! It's funny, when I bought it I only went with 8GB ram because I figured I would replace it in 2 years-ish. It has served me well, but, it's struggling with only 8GB these days. Now I'm ready for 32GB, because I'm planning on keeping the next one for another 5 years. Let's hope the 14" MackBook Pro in 2021 (with mini-LED secreen) rumors have legs to it. Hoping this is only the interim state of the 13" Pro and is due to really needing a different ARM cpu that is not available yet.
I am in the same boat. I love this Laptop, but Lightroom (CC) is really slow compared to how it runs on iOS. I would assume the new M1-based machines could run the iOS version of Lightroom almost out of the box.
>2015 Macbook Pro Retina 13"
How long will OS updates be distributed for it?
How long will OS updates be distributed for it?
Same boat as you, but for some reason with the new MacOS update my computer kept getting the most random freezes to the point where I gave up and gave it a fresh Linux install. Haven’t looked back and I’m extremely happy with the work I’ve been putting into it.
I returned my brand new top spec 2019 model to IT and took the 2015 model from their retired stock.
I have this generation air and a recent pro... call me crazy, but somehow the hard edges of the pro are super uncomfortable when the laptop is on my lap. Maybe an air vs pro thing rather than generation thing
I have this machine as well, currently going slow, is it the OS? or do I need to open the machine and clean the fan?
I'm going to install Linux on it.
I'm going to install Linux on it.
Did I miss something, or are they, once again, not upgrading the camera? The low light performance of the current version is real bad. Since we're all using these cameras way more, I really thought there would a hardware bump. You can only squeeze so much detail out of an under-exposed, noisy image with software.
It's looking like they stuck the M1 in the same bodies of existing Macs with the intention of upgrading everything next year.
If you look at the cooling solutions on the current macs I’d say the inverse: that these chassis were designed with the M1 in mind and they shoehorned Intel CPUs into them.
This is exactly right. They could have done everything in one go, but they had to change the keyboard and call that the 5th generation macbook pro. Like they didn't even include wifi 6 in the previous model nor did they hold an event for it. Kuo says a redesign is due in 2021, but apple can't keep getting away with doing the same thing since 2016. There are laptops with dual screens, 4k touch screens, vapeor chamber cooling, and apple just be changing out the keyboard for the next gen. This new chip is good for the chip industry, but it's not really a different laptop at all.
> dual screens
> touch screens
> vapeor chamber cooling
...Thank you apple for not listening to the HN crowd
> touch screens
> vapeor chamber cooling
...Thank you apple for not listening to the HN crowd
I'm curious, are higher-quality cameras even available that fit into the thin lid? (At a reasonable price?)
I was always under the impression that the built-in camera is so much worse than your phone's front-facing camera simply because the phone is thick and has room, while the MacBook lid is much thinner.
I was always under the impression that the built-in camera is so much worse than your phone's front-facing camera simply because the phone is thick and has room, while the MacBook lid is much thinner.
That's a kind-of-backwards argument though isn't it? The lid needs to be thick enough to contain the necessary components, not the other way round.
Obviously Apple sees thinness as a major feature.
The reality is, for most people 720p is more than enough, since most videoconferencing is at a heavily compressed 480p anyways, and it's not like most people really want it super obvious that they missed a spot shaving or have a small zit anyways. And sure the quality arguably falls to below 480p in very low light conditions, but that's not an issue in any normal well-lit office, coffee shop, or kitchen or living room.
I would assume Apple is making the right call here that a higher-resolution camera isn't worth additional thickness.
The reality is, for most people 720p is more than enough, since most videoconferencing is at a heavily compressed 480p anyways, and it's not like most people really want it super obvious that they missed a spot shaving or have a small zit anyways. And sure the quality arguably falls to below 480p in very low light conditions, but that's not an issue in any normal well-lit office, coffee shop, or kitchen or living room.
I would assume Apple is making the right call here that a higher-resolution camera isn't worth additional thickness.
Yea, I hate the way the background blur feature in google meets suddenly make my face way brighter and "pop" in the video. With winter coming, I'm getting a lot less natural light in my work area and my videos just look dreary.
But if the entire lid was as thick as a phone because of a camera then it would be enormous for no realistic reason.
The rest of the screen display is thinner than the camera module already.
The rest of the screen display is thinner than the camera module already.
Considering how good they are at iphone cameras there is absolutely no reason to have a poor camera nowaday in the laptop. They know how to make cameras that fit in tight places. They're just being lazy/cheap
Instead of having a camera as thin as the lid, they could have the camera stick out a little bit and fit into a recess on the other side of the clamshell when closed.
I'm almost sure they couldn't. I can't quite put my finger on it, but that's just not how Apple does things.
I know you're being snarky, but in all seriousness they'd need to make the touchpad smaller to make room for it.
And considering people LOVE Apple's huge and amazing trackpads... I would guess it wouldn't be a smart tradeoff.
And considering people LOVE Apple's huge and amazing trackpads... I would guess it wouldn't be a smart tradeoff.
No, I don't think you're wrong. Apple has a bizarre product offering which combines an 8 core processor with a 720P camera and 8GB RAM.
Surprising as it seems, 8GB seems to be enough for most "normal" users. My wife has an 8GB MacBook Pro and I'm always shocked by how many open tabs she keeps in Chrome and how many Office documents are open at any given time.
My 16GB MBP is constraining sometimes and the next one will, doubtlessly, come with at least 32GB. Until Apple can do that, I won't use an ARM-based Mac as my daily driver.
As for the 8-core, it's 4 beefy ones and 4 low-power ones. Load will shift from one kind to the other according to usage patterns. This is how they achieve that 20-hour battery life.
My 16GB MBP is constraining sometimes and the next one will, doubtlessly, come with at least 32GB. Until Apple can do that, I won't use an ARM-based Mac as my daily driver.
As for the 8-core, it's 4 beefy ones and 4 low-power ones. Load will shift from one kind to the other according to usage patterns. This is how they achieve that 20-hour battery life.
How come people have problem with 8GB of RAM as if without more, your usage is screwed?
I run heavyweight IDE, Photoshop, VMware and Chrome and I still could manage with 8GB fine. Who requires 16GB for daily use?
I run heavyweight IDE, Photoshop, VMware and Chrome and I still could manage with 8GB fine. Who requires 16GB for daily use?
I brought a decent external camera, and while being able to position it is a must have, the quality means that if I don't shave or have a nick or something in the background, it is obvious.
Whereas the people I am on an online call with have about has many pixels dedicated to their hair as Laura in Tomb Raider 3.
I still care enough that I use it, and I am disappointed in Apple not including their iPhone camera, but it might not be something the average person wants.
Whereas the people I am on an online call with have about has many pixels dedicated to their hair as Laura in Tomb Raider 3.
I still care enough that I use it, and I am disappointed in Apple not including their iPhone camera, but it might not be something the average person wants.
Which camera did you get?
I agree that the cameras are subpar. I wonder if Apple figures that most Mac users already have an iPhone, and that if they want to use a better camera for videoconferencing, they can always just plug in their iPhone and use it as the camera.
Has anyone done this? I've considered using my iPad Pro's camera this way but have never cared enough to actually do it.
Has anyone done this? I've considered using my iPad Pro's camera this way but have never cared enough to actually do it.
I got a tripod and use my iPhone’s rear facing camera and I’m really happy with the setup.
What software are you using to pull it off?
I want to do it too, but don’t want to choose between 3rd-party apps. I wish it were built-in to the OS, like AirPlay and Sidecar are...
I want to do it too, but don’t want to choose between 3rd-party apps. I wish it were built-in to the OS, like AirPlay and Sidecar are...
I wish it were built in too but at the moment I'm using a program called Camo. https://reincubate.com/camo/
are they, once again, not upgrading the camera?
I'm pretty sure there was a part of the presentation talking about a camera upgrade. But it's not something on my wish list, so I didn't pay attention.
Double-check the recording on Apple's web site. The answer may be there.
I'm pretty sure there was a part of the presentation talking about a camera upgrade. But it's not something on my wish list, so I didn't pay attention.
Double-check the recording on Apple's web site. The answer may be there.
The camera remains 720p, but they're claiming improved performance via signal processing algorithms[1]
[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/10/macbook-pro-m1-720p-cam...
[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/10/macbook-pro-m1-720p-cam...
I saw mention of a whole bunch of camera stuff including improved face detection.
That's via Image Signal Processing, not the camera itself.
Super interesting how they kept the touchbar on the Macbook Pro keyboard but not on the Air. As a software developer, I'm going to be more likely to buy an Air just due to the keyboard.
They kept the touch bar but it seems that they added (back) a physical Esc key, isn't that the most criticized missing key?
Which other key do you miss now that Esc is back?
Which other key do you miss now that Esc is back?
Having bought a Macbook Pro with an Esc key earlier this year, lack of an Esc key was 90% of my issue with the touch bar. My biggest issue now is when I accidentally activate it. I didn't have an issue accidentally hitting the function keys on my 2013, so why not bring those back? Or invent something new. Forward or back, I don't care, just admit the touch bar was a dud and get it off my keyboard.
EDIT: My mother also says she gets distracting autocomplete suggestions on the touch bar while she's typing. I vaguely remember doing something to turn that off on mine, but she is terrified of Covid so I haven't had a chance to get at her laptop and fix it for her. I don't know what human factors genius at Apple decided it would be helpful for people to see words hopping around at the edge of their vision while they're trying to type.
EDIT: My mother also says she gets distracting autocomplete suggestions on the touch bar while she's typing. I vaguely remember doing something to turn that off on mine, but she is terrified of Covid so I haven't had a chance to get at her laptop and fix it for her. I don't know what human factors genius at Apple decided it would be helpful for people to see words hopping around at the edge of their vision while they're trying to type.
> I vaguely remember doing something to turn that off on mine, but she is terrified of Covid so I haven't had a chance to get at her laptop and fix it for her.
You can use Messages to easily initiate screen-sharing (with you controlling her Mac) to do that. No 3rd party software, no action on her side needed.
You can use Messages to easily initiate screen-sharing (with you controlling her Mac) to do that. No 3rd party software, no action on her side needed.
Settings | Keyboard | Touch Bar Shows
You can choose a few different options there - try "Expanded Control Strip".
You can choose a few different options there - try "Expanded Control Strip".
I remapped escape to caps lock to overcome this, it might work for others who don't use caps lock.
It's absurd that you had to resort to this.
I wonder if someone also released a standalone bluetooth escape key that attaches to the side of a keyboard (equally absurd).
Time for Facetime?
I'm with you. My work computer has the TouchBar, and my personal computer has the physical keys.
While I prefer the physical keys, once you get the TouchBar configured properly (I use MTMR), it's really quite nice. Combined with a physical escape key, it would be ideal.
Considering how the people on HN boast so much about being L337 Haxxorz, I'm surprised they don't see the value in a secondary interactive screen that they can make do anything they want.
While I prefer the physical keys, once you get the TouchBar configured properly (I use MTMR), it's really quite nice. Combined with a physical escape key, it would be ideal.
Considering how the people on HN boast so much about being L337 Haxxorz, I'm surprised they don't see the value in a secondary interactive screen that they can make do anything they want.
I don't look when I type. The touchbar makes me look down from my screen if I want to interact with it.
I don't look when I type, either, except for the function keys, because I don't use them that often. So since I'm already looking down at the function keys, looking at the TouchBar makes zero difference.
One minor annoyance, however, is that the TouchBar isn't visible in direct sunlight, which is to be expected of any screen. Function keys don't have that problem.
One minor annoyance, however, is that the TouchBar isn't visible in direct sunlight, which is to be expected of any screen. Function keys don't have that problem.
> Which other key do you miss now that Esc is back?
I really need a Forward-Delete key - pressing Cmd+Backspace just doesn't work for me.
I really need a Forward-Delete key - pressing Cmd+Backspace just doesn't work for me.
Fn+Backspace would work for you, though :P
It is Cmd+Backspace for me because I remapped my MacBook's keyboard so it matches my ThinkPad's[1] - I really don't want to have to play Twister with my fingers.
[1] Yes, I've remapped/swapped the Ctrl+Fn keys on my ThinkPad too.
[1] Yes, I've remapped/swapped the Ctrl+Fn keys on my ThinkPad too.
Funnily enough the MacBook Pro product page actually shows both the physical and virtual escape keys on the touch bar. Hopefully that's a mistake...
Adding back the escape key is not new, they had the same physical keyboard layout in the previous MacBook Air which was announced Nov 2019.
The lock button is super sensitive and prone to being pressed when hitting backspace.
light level down, light level up, mute, volume down, volume up.
That’s great!
I actually miss "Esc" key being in the touchbar, it felt quicker to tap it on previous gen macbook pro instead of pressing it on my new macbook pro.
Having used an MBP keyboard, I'd say "all of them".
All of them? I use the function keys regularly and it's much harder to hit the correct one without looking at the keyboard with the touch bar.
This is such a bizarre unforced error. Why would they just arbitrarily remove a row of the keyboard? Taking it away and asking why I need it is like asking why I need right-click, pinch-to-zoom, or my left pinky finger. It makes no sense that we have to choose between fully featured input and active cooling.
Either way, based on this announcement I'll probably hold off on upgrading for another generation. That'll leave some time to see how the transition goes, and with any luck the next ones will include 32 GB RAM, Mini-LED, and 5G (along with a full keyboard).
Either way, based on this announcement I'll probably hold off on upgrading for another generation. That'll leave some time to see how the transition goes, and with any luck the next ones will include 32 GB RAM, Mini-LED, and 5G (along with a full keyboard).
Don't know why they didn't just add a screen to the blank function key width gap of bare aluminum between the keyboard and the hinge if they were looking to add some decoration to the keyboard. That would have been praised, instead it's been a pariah.
What do you use function keys for? I was thinking about this, and I don't think I've used a function key in years.
Step Over/Into/Out shortcuts in Xcode (F6/F7/F8) are the really obvious ones which I hit many times per day. Play/pause/etc. with the Fn key are easier to hit without looking than the touchbar.
I prefer that they change labels in a context-sensitive way. For keys that I don't use that often the icon is a better trade-off than a tactile response. Sliders are useful as well.
Jetbrains IDEs and VSCcode have a ton of default shortcuts using the fn keys.
I'm happily tapping away with them on a 2020 MBA
I'm happily tapping away with them on a 2020 MBA
That's a good question. I can imagine some people never using them because of their particular workflow and software of choice.
In my particular case, I use them all the time. Edit some SQL, press F9. Select some files, press F5. And so on.
I can't work without the function keys.
In my particular case, I use them all the time. Edit some SQL, press F9. Select some files, press F5. And so on.
I can't work without the function keys.
Do you use IDEs for debugging?
The physical Esc key was already added in the previous generation
Same, the only issue with the current air for me is that the graphics struggle a bit when driving a large 4K monitor.
If the new graphics capabilities are that much better I would be very tempted to upgrade
If the new graphics capabilities are that much better I would be very tempted to upgrade
I can't fathom why Apple couldn't just include both. I'm using a company-provided touchbar'd Macbook Pro for work, and it's handy (I've got it setup with screenshot and screen lock buttons so I don't have to memorize the absolutely bonkers keyboard shortcuts for them); it just seems boneheaded to treat it as a replacement of the function keys instead of an addition.
Almost exactly what I thought, however specs are too low for me to ditch the bar no matter how useless it is comparing to physical keys
as a software dev who went for air before the current gen of pro macbooks with hardware esc, dont do it
the air is really sluggish for anything but the lightest of tasks. there was even extremely noticeable latency using gmail.com
the air is really sluggish for anything but the lightest of tasks. there was even extremely noticeable latency using gmail.com
Which air?
I've used the last 2 Air for developing including Photoshop and VMware fusion but I could work just fine.
I've used the last 2 Air for developing including Photoshop and VMware fusion but I could work just fine.
The OP is likely referring to the newly-announced Air with the same M1 chip.
Agree for the current Macs. The new Air seems to have the same specs as the new 13" Pro though or is there a difference?
Since the new MacBook Air doesn’t have a fan while the MacBook Pro does, I’m sure there are some differences that Apple isn’t admitting right now. The battery life claimed by Apple is also higher on the Air compared to the Pro. Maybe the Air is throttled or runs at lower clock speeds.
The base model air has 7 GPU cores instead of the 8 that the higher end Air, Pro, and Mini have.
If you configured them the same (chose the more expensive Air), the Air and the 13" Pro have the exact same specs from what I can tell other than a slightly brighter screen (500 nits vs. 400 nits) and slightly bigger battery (58.2 whr vs. 49.9 whr) on the 13" Pro.
I've been using Airs as my primary machine since 2010. I don't use bulky software (XCode, Adobe suite, Office, etc), so if you use any of that I wouldn't recommend it, but for software dev it's been plenty fast and a real joy to use.
The only time I'm speed constrained is deep learning, but generally I just run tiny test sets locally and then run full jobs on a cluster or the cloud.
In the mid 2010's I had a desktop with like 64GB of Ram and four million processors, and I found programming on the Air I was still more productive. Productivity wise I think it's a very high dimensional space to consider.
(P.S. Can't wait to get this new Air!!!)
The only time I'm speed constrained is deep learning, but generally I just run tiny test sets locally and then run full jobs on a cluster or the cloud.
In the mid 2010's I had a desktop with like 64GB of Ram and four million processors, and I found programming on the Air I was still more productive. Productivity wise I think it's a very high dimensional space to consider.
(P.S. Can't wait to get this new Air!!!)
Honestly, I'm not even sure if that's an indictment of the hardware or gmail itself.
I place my faith in ARM and 5nm TSMC processing.
I only notice any issues when driving a big 4k monitor - seems like the graphics is the limitation to me.
There's a noticeable latency using gmail.com on my iMac Pro, too.
I've always used powerful desktops (Mac Pro, iMac Pro) and MacBook Airs while traveling, and while the Airs aren't very good for video games like StarCraft II, I've never had a problem with performance while doing anything else (I work in VS Code on TypeScript). My unit tests run in ~20 seconds on the MacBook Air as well as the iMac Pro.
I've always used powerful desktops (Mac Pro, iMac Pro) and MacBook Airs while traveling, and while the Airs aren't very good for video games like StarCraft II, I've never had a problem with performance while doing anything else (I work in VS Code on TypeScript). My unit tests run in ~20 seconds on the MacBook Air as well as the iMac Pro.
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I am also not a fan of the keyboard or touch bar, but especially the touch bar. It's a cool idea and I can see useful functions, but not pushed up against a place where you're typing. I am constantly bringing up Siri or changing volume when hitting numbers, -= or delete from a finger swiping across the touch bar accidentally. There used to be a tactile force needed to activate F key functions, but now there's just a capacitive touch bar.
Didn't they revert the keyboard to the previous version? (Magic vs butterfly)
What's wrong with the new keyboard (touch bar aside)? I haven't tried one yet, but I thought it was supposed to be more or less the same as the 2013 - 2015 MBP's.
Has anyone ever seen anyone use the Touch Bar? Like really use it?
Personally I tried using it for F keys which is quite frankly the only requirement I’d have and it was awful. At a fully extended hand, which you need to do if you’ve hit a meta key, it’s impossible to hit the right F keys every time. I don’t know how anyone writes code on those machines.
It went back to the Apple store within a week and I got an air. Which went to the Apple store in a week because the keybbboooaaarrdd wwaaass aawwwful.
Then I bought a thinkpad. Which is less of a shiny toy.
It went back to the Apple store within a week and I got an air. Which went to the Apple store in a week because the keybbboooaaarrdd wwaaass aawwwful.
Then I bought a thinkpad. Which is less of a shiny toy.
Which Thinkpad did you get, and how do you like it? Are you running Windows, or Linux?
I'm trying to figure out what my next laptop should be, but I have no prior experience with Thinkpads.
I'm trying to figure out what my next laptop should be, but I have no prior experience with Thinkpads.
T495s running Ubuntu 20.04. Absolutely perfect machine as far as I am concerned. Everything works flawlessly that I've tried and the quality is excellent. Really like it.
Like most oldsters, I have presbyopia, which is exacerbated in low light. When I need to turn up the brightness of my monitor, I can actually see the "button" on a touchbar. On all my non-touchbar laptops, I randomly press F keys and hope for the best or pull out my phone for a flashlight.
Yes, I miss the physical esc, but F-keys are usually SW configurable and I can configure splat-1-10. That said, I am not a frequent programmer...
Yes, I miss the physical esc, but F-keys are usually SW configurable and I can configure splat-1-10. That said, I am not a frequent programmer...
I love the Touch Bar. All those cmd-opt-shift bizarro keyboard shortcuts, I have mapped to custom buttons across lots of apps. A couple popup apps on globally-available buttons. Even a swiping gesture while on iTerm to fly through command history.
It's great if you take the time to actually customize it.
It's great if you take the time to actually customize it.
incidentally, I place the “blame” for the poor uptake of the Touch Bar at Apple’s feet. They relied on uninterested developers to make it useful, and didn't but the necessary tools in the hands of users to make it useful themselves. In five years, they’ve done nothing to expand its capabilities since the debut.
Everything cool I can do with the Touch Bar is thanks to a third-party tool, BetterTouchTool. Also enables some cool stuff like three-finger-trackpad-swipes to cycle through window tabs! Worth the price of admission for that feature alone, give it a look. https://www.folivora.ai
Everything cool I can do with the Touch Bar is thanks to a third-party tool, BetterTouchTool. Also enables some cool stuff like three-finger-trackpad-swipes to cycle through window tabs! Worth the price of admission for that feature alone, give it a look. https://www.folivora.ai
I really have no clue what apple is thinking with regards to the touchbar.
Why should any developer spend time developing sorely lacking features for the touch bar, when they just released the most popular mac without one?
The only way I can make sense of the decision to release the air without a touch bar, is that it must be really expensive to manufacture and they were struggling to hit the $1000 price point.
As a result the touchbar lives in this weird limbo state. Apple themselves clearly are uncertain what they want from it, and it shows. Since its release the touch bar has been left mostly abandoned and it’s been up to third party developers to make it useful.
It can be useful, at least after heavy customization – something a screen lends itself well to. Why isn’t apple doing more to help users customize it?
macOS comes with an application called Automator. Automator is confusing for power and regular users alike and as a result, nobody uses it. Why not rethink Automator completely with the touchbar in mind? Bring the power of programming to regular users with an easily accessible ‘create your own button’ feature that lets users add custom commands accessible from their touchbar?
Why should any developer spend time developing sorely lacking features for the touch bar, when they just released the most popular mac without one?
The only way I can make sense of the decision to release the air without a touch bar, is that it must be really expensive to manufacture and they were struggling to hit the $1000 price point.
As a result the touchbar lives in this weird limbo state. Apple themselves clearly are uncertain what they want from it, and it shows. Since its release the touch bar has been left mostly abandoned and it’s been up to third party developers to make it useful.
It can be useful, at least after heavy customization – something a screen lends itself well to. Why isn’t apple doing more to help users customize it?
macOS comes with an application called Automator. Automator is confusing for power and regular users alike and as a result, nobody uses it. Why not rethink Automator completely with the touchbar in mind? Bring the power of programming to regular users with an easily accessible ‘create your own button’ feature that lets users add custom commands accessible from their touchbar?
Automator, or IOS Shortcuts, that’s exactly the kind of thinking the Touch Bar needs.
Add that, plus the ability to map any menu command to a Touch Bar button, and it would be vastly more useful.
Add that, plus the ability to map any menu command to a Touch Bar button, and it would be vastly more useful.
My fondest wish is a high-end MBP 16" with no touch bar. The touch bar's sole role is to generate errors and missteps resulting from merely grazing over it.
Even setting the touch bar to vanilla F-keys, grazing triggers F-key actions which is so frustrating.
Even setting the touch bar to vanilla F-keys, grazing triggers F-key actions which is so frustrating.
Yes - I always assumed the eventual goal was a touch bar with the same haptic feedback as the trackpad (and no the trackpad doesn't move).
FWIW there are third-party software options for the Touch Bar such as MTMR (my touch bar, my rules), which at least allows you to activate the haptic feedback in the trackpad when touch bar buttons are pressed. I found that it helped dramatically with accidental touch bar presses.
MTMR also solves the other main problem with the Touch Bar which is that it hides brightness and volume controls behind a tap (so you can't, for example, instantly mash "volume down" when you find it is unexpectedly loud.) With MTMR (and others I believe) you can make multi-touch gestures on the bar to adjust volume and brightness swiftly.
All that said, I'm not convinced that the touch bar adds enough value to justify its cost. If your day-to-day computer use includes tasks it is good it, maybe. As a developer, probably not.
Just my $0.02 as a touchbar-skeptic-cum-macbook-owner.
MTMR also solves the other main problem with the Touch Bar which is that it hides brightness and volume controls behind a tap (so you can't, for example, instantly mash "volume down" when you find it is unexpectedly loud.) With MTMR (and others I believe) you can make multi-touch gestures on the bar to adjust volume and brightness swiftly.
All that said, I'm not convinced that the touch bar adds enough value to justify its cost. If your day-to-day computer use includes tasks it is good it, maybe. As a developer, probably not.
Just my $0.02 as a touchbar-skeptic-cum-macbook-owner.
Give me the 2015 model any day
I use it for exactly what I've always used function keys for- brightness and volume.
I also occasionally use the emoji picker or app specific stuff. For example- my markdown editor has Touchbar selections for code blocks and all that sort of stuff. I don't write enough markdown to remember everything- so the touchbar makes it nicely discoverable without having to click through menus.
I also occasionally use the emoji picker or app specific stuff. For example- my markdown editor has Touchbar selections for code blocks and all that sort of stuff. I don't write enough markdown to remember everything- so the touchbar makes it nicely discoverable without having to click through menus.
I only use it for brightness and volume controls (and TIL about the Emoji picker thanks to a sibling comment). I LOVE the analog-feeling controls on brightness and volume. Even though I know it's the same under the hood as an incrementation button, the UX of it makes me feel substantially happier. I absolutely miss the volume and brightness sliders when I go to use my Chromebook or my wife's laptop.
I normally keep the touchbar configured to only show the ~4 most used buttons (night mode, brightness, volume, and mute), and find that I use the other buttons rarely enough that I forgot what else was on there -- mainly because I use touchpad gestures instead.
I rarely (never?) used F-keys in my IDE (Jetbrains) or other apps, so I don't miss them. I have a physical Esc key (which is nice), though I used it rarely enough on my previous generation touchbar mac that it wasn't very infuriating. Having the physical escape + power keys removed any complaints I previously had about it.
I normally keep the touchbar configured to only show the ~4 most used buttons (night mode, brightness, volume, and mute), and find that I use the other buttons rarely enough that I forgot what else was on there -- mainly because I use touchpad gestures instead.
I rarely (never?) used F-keys in my IDE (Jetbrains) or other apps, so I don't miss them. I have a physical Esc key (which is nice), though I used it rarely enough on my previous generation touchbar mac that it wasn't very infuriating. Having the physical escape + power keys removed any complaints I previously had about it.
Interesting. Volume and brightness adjustment is my least favorite part of the touchbar. With physical keys I can adjust the volume/brightness without looking down.
If it were a physical slider, I'd totally agree with you.
(Not that there's any right or wrong or answer here.)
If it were a physical slider, I'd totally agree with you.
(Not that there's any right or wrong or answer here.)
Samplr is an example of how cool it can be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMlmzTBF_LE
I dislike it immensely, mainly because it changes all the time and this makes ot hard to use worhout looking at it every single time. The best way is to use an external keyboard.
I think that the Photoshop crowd likes it.
Depends on how you use it, if you use a lot of actions (basically macros) via keyboard shortcuts then you probably hate the touchbar, because they can only be bound to f-keys.
It was designed for, and is widely used by, the graphics and audio professionals crowd.
The ability to use touch sliders, filmstrips, etc. is a huge boon.
It just gets a ton of hate here on HN because obviously there's very little overlap between the populations.
A lot of people forget that "Pro" has never referred to software professionals, it's always referred to multimedia professionals.
The ability to use touch sliders, filmstrips, etc. is a huge boon.
It just gets a ton of hate here on HN because obviously there's very little overlap between the populations.
A lot of people forget that "Pro" has never referred to software professionals, it's always referred to multimedia professionals.
I do graphics, video and development and my hobby is audio. I have used the Touch Bar about once for all those things. The novelty wears off.
VirtualDJ supports using it for a crossfader, but then, it would be a way better move to buy an Air, and a real audio interface and mixing board, or at least an external controller.
There are quite a few people who look at the keyboard as they type and for them it's great. Seems like it would be more useful in a consumer laptop.
If Touch Bar were in addition to the function keys + Escape key, everyone would praise it as yet another brilliant Apple innovation, and rivals would be copying it the way every notebook nowadays looks like the late-2008 unibody Macbook Pro (and really, all the way back to the 2001 titanium PowerBook). But it's not, so they don't and they aren't.
Has anyone ever seen anyone use the F# keys in a Mac app?
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Surprisingly, the dealbreaker for me on this current generation is 2x TB3 ports on one side. I really like being able to charge from either side.
On a tangential note, there were reports about the Intel based MacBook Pro from earlier this year having CPU usage spikes and heating issues when charging from the left side port. For users with this problem, it was effectively “charge using the right side port”.
As a MacBook Pro owner this is nonsense.
It throttles badly and overheats no matter which side you charge on.
Actually surprised it didn't get more attention. If you're downloading and charging at the same time then your computer is unusable.
It throttles badly and overheats no matter which side you charge on.
Actually surprised it didn't get more attention. If you're downloading and charging at the same time then your computer is unusable.
I definitely get more heat and throttling powering on the left side than the right, on my 2019 16”. There are quite a lot of people who have reported the same, for all models which have USB-c ports on both sides. If you’re not seeing a difference, it’s pretty likely your workload or some background process is still pushing the thermal limits of your machine.
Hmm, I wouldn't say this is nonsense. I can consistently reproduce the issue by charging on the left side (making the computer completely unusable), and then switching to the right side and having it run perfectly fine. Since I started charging on the right side I've had zero issues with it.
Hmm, I'll check this out today. Ironically I was downloading XCode last night and the fans sped up for an hour.
Yes, the original thread for this I believe is here: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...
What a bizarre limitation. You'd think once they had them on both sides, they'd keep them that way for exactly the kind of flexibility you mention.
You would also think they would keep the MagSafe connector, which was truly revolutionary (and has definitely saved me at least a dozen times), but yet here we are.
I've already tripped or stumbled on my usb-c cable dozens of times working from home. The damn thing is already pulling out at the ends. Why can't apple make good cables? They make their environmental statement making you buy the charger for your phone rather than shipping one in the box, just to sell you junk cables that don't last. I had old multipin cables and earbuds from the original ipod that still hold up. All of their textured grippy feeling cables have been crap.
(This isn't a new design, FWIW.)
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You can charge from either side though. You just don’t get all the bandwidth that USB4/TB4 normally provides.
You can’t charge from either side if there are only ports on one side, which, if I understand the design and Gp’s comment correctly, is the case for the ARM macs. Which would be those GP meant as “this generation”.
I assumed they had 4 ports like the current non-base model 13's, my bad.
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The 16GB RAM limit is unfortunate.
Five years later and I still can't buy a new 13" laptop from Apple with more RAM than my 2015 MBP.
Edit: Apparently you can configure a (Early 2020) Intel-based 13" MBP with 32GB of RAM - I was not aware of that. Hope they bring that option to the ARM versions ASAP, especially if the performance gains are as good as Apple claims.
Five years later and I still can't buy a new 13" laptop from Apple with more RAM than my 2015 MBP.
Edit: Apparently you can configure a (Early 2020) Intel-based 13" MBP with 32GB of RAM - I was not aware of that. Hope they bring that option to the ARM versions ASAP, especially if the performance gains are as good as Apple claims.
I'm guessing that since the RAM is now on the SOC instead of on separate chips creating models with more RAM becomes more difficult not only from a space constraint on the die but a cost to manufacture more variants?
I imagine they all are made with 16Gb on and the ones that are broken get sold as 8Gb.
What worries me is my desktop has 64Gb of RAM which cost 1/3 of Apple’s usual upgrade mugging.
I think I’ll walk away from this.
Edit: just seen £200 to upgrade from a 8Gb unit to 16Gb.
8GB of RAM for £200 is “get fucked” territory. I paid £240 for the 64Gb in my desktop.
What worries me is my desktop has 64Gb of RAM which cost 1/3 of Apple’s usual upgrade mugging.
I think I’ll walk away from this.
Edit: just seen £200 to upgrade from a 8Gb unit to 16Gb.
8GB of RAM for £200 is “get fucked” territory. I paid £240 for the 64Gb in my desktop.
The iPad Pro has a mere 4GB of RAM and is faster at almost every task AND multitasking than any of my other beefy machines. I wouldn’t discount this yet.
But you don’t have background services on the iPad and apps are hibernated to disk if they aren’t active and iOS needs more ram. It’s possible that Apple is doing the same thing on macOS, but we don’t know (it would break a ton of apps).
They started doing exactly that way back in Snow Leopard I think - app “open” indicators were removed at the time.
I have an iPad Pro. It’s not. And it’s not very flexible.
I think it depends what they've done with Big Sur.
Take a look at your activity monitor and see how many background tasks you laptop is running right now (I currently have 481 and I only have 4 apps actually running).
Compare that to iPad which can run 2 apps max and apple controls all the background activity.
Take a look at your activity monitor and see how many background tasks you laptop is running right now (I currently have 481 and I only have 4 apps actually running).
Compare that to iPad which can run 2 apps max and apple controls all the background activity.
I use 27 Gb of RAM currently on my hackintosh and none of my work VMs are on right now. No way I can get an arm Mac until they're available with 64+.
This. I was hitting a wall on RAM instantly at 32Gb.
Hitting a wall how? The machine stops working properly? Or you see all the RAM allocated in Activity Monitor? Because MacOS aggressively allocates RAM even under a normal workload.
Well when you start getting memory pressure you start losing cycles to compressing and decompressing pages which makes everything run like complete shit.
That’s not how MacOS works. It “keeps the pressure on” so to speak to try and have as much in-memory before you need it. Have you experienced actual issues with specific software?
Out of curiosity, doing what??
IDE + VMs + office + slack + zoom etc
I don't see this issue having IntelliJ, Xcode, VSCode, Slack, Discord, and more open simultaneously on a continuous issue...with 16 GB of RAM.
I'm somewhat impressed by some of these stories about RAM usage - what are people doing?
I'm somewhat impressed by some of these stories about RAM usage - what are people doing?
RStudio, interrogating a ~0.5 billion record dataset. A 192G Ram machine.
I did some benchmarking on that public taxi rides dump (~600m records) and could run through it all in under 15 seconds directly from SSD. No way in hell your CPU will keep up with anything close to memory bandwidth or beyond 3GB/s.
4 node Kubernetes cluster, vagrant build environment.
Debugging Ember or Spring applications.
Blows my mind, I do most of the same on a 2013 MacBook Air with only 8GB RAM. I’ve never had a perf hiccup unless I try video editing or gaming. But I just don’t really have a want to do those things, hence why I’m still getting by on this thing. I was going to upgrade once for the hell of it but all the keyboard issues kept me seated.
I expected you to say you did something with graphics/media. I guess the VMs could be the difference. I don’t use. But I have 100 chrome tabs open at most times lol.
I expected you to say you did something with graphics/media. I guess the VMs could be the difference. I don’t use. But I have 100 chrome tabs open at most times lol.
All these things work with 8GB RAM. macOS uses all available RAM aggressively, so if you have 32GB RAM it will appear as what you are doing requires 32GB RAM, which is not the case.
No they don't. It starts compressing pages when the memory pressure goes up and then it starts running like dog shit.
Right now I have 6GB for VMs (for ~12 docker containers) and 8GB for various IDEs and editors. Probably typical for those on my development team. Surprisingly Chrome isn't even the top ten for memory footprint on my laptop.
So far 16GB has been fine on this 2017 MacBook. Wouldn't turn down 32 though :-)
So far 16GB has been fine on this 2017 MacBook. Wouldn't turn down 32 though :-)
You have reduced performance, you're just accustomed to it.
Could be true. But I get instant feedback from all apps, so what's the measure of "reduced performance" that would matter? I'm actually curious, if nothing lags, would I notice a difference by upgrading?
My view into your comment is that you think I'm used to the lag. That's not the case. It's not my only device just my only Apple laptop. My newest device, a iPhone 12 Pro, is an upgrade from my 6s that I surely noticed and knew I would. I had been frustrated by the 6s for a while but held out for 5G.
My view into your comment is that you think I'm used to the lag. That's not the case. It's not my only device just my only Apple laptop. My newest device, a iPhone 12 Pro, is an upgrade from my 6s that I surely noticed and knew I would. I had been frustrated by the 6s for a while but held out for 5G.
Yeah, I found running all my dev environments in Docker/VMs made everything too slow. So I've just installed everything natively and have my own little docker-compose style runner to simplifying running our in-house microservices. I would definitely appreciate decent Docker performance, but it was actually surprisingly painless to set this up.
The only thing could be some really aggressive swap disk situation offloading anything not needed that second. But that won't work for things where you need all the ram right now, video editing for example.
macOS use RAM aggressively, so it appear as your task requires more RAM than they actually do.
> "I imagine they all are made with 16Gb on and the ones that are broken get sold as 8Gb."
Don't think so. The M1's RAM is integrated into the SoC package, but it's not actually on the same die.
There's some images showing the discrete RAM modules in Apple's marketing material.
> "Edit: just seen £200 to upgrade from a 8Gb unit to 16Gb."
It's always been this way with Apple. Just in the old days you could pop the modules out and upgrade the RAM yourself.
Don't think so. The M1's RAM is integrated into the SoC package, but it's not actually on the same die.
There's some images showing the discrete RAM modules in Apple's marketing material.
> "Edit: just seen £200 to upgrade from a 8Gb unit to 16Gb."
It's always been this way with Apple. Just in the old days you could pop the modules out and upgrade the RAM yourself.
> I imagine they all are made with 16Gb on and the ones that are broken get sold as 8Gb.
that gets done for GPUs and CPUs because they're a monolithic die, but AFAIK that's not done for memory chips.
that gets done for GPUs and CPUs because they're a monolithic die, but AFAIK that's not done for memory chips.
This is a good point and begs an interesting question: will they continue using the same ARM chip across the whole line when the 16" MBP and the other iMacs make the switch, and if so, will all Macs of the same generation always have the same amount of RAM? Or will they branch the chips (M2 and M2S, or something)? Is RAM becoming less relevant when you have smart integration of software and hardware components, to a point where stratification is no longer necessary in most cases?
> Is RAM becoming less relevant when you have smart integration of software and hardware components, to a point where stratification is no longer necessary in most cases?
If they intend these things to run software development, audio/video editing, CAD, or any other resource-intensive workloads, there will absolutely be demand for more.
If they intend these things to run software development, audio/video editing, CAD, or any other resource-intensive workloads, there will absolutely be demand for more.
I could see the M2 coming with 32GB across the board, at which point the only current outliers (setting aside the Mac Pro as a special case) would be the 64GB configuration for the 16" Macbook Pro and the 64GB and 128GB configurations for the iMac. I could imagine Apple's optimizations closing the performance gap with the current 64GB offerings, and then perhaps they just leave 128GB customers to go all the way for the Mac Pro. I would be surprised to hear that they sell very many 128GB iMacs right now anyway.
That is probably exactly why they are holding off on the 16" and iMacs, so they can engineer an Apple Silicon package with more RAM expansion options.
I'm waiting for their mac pro with apple silicon to be capped at 16gb of ram!
;)
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I used a MBP with 4 GB of RAM up until 2018 for rather heavy duty data science workloads. Wasn't ideal, but one thing I learned was that you really can't infer the amount of swapping and performance degradation that occurs just by looking at how much RAM is in use vs. how much you have, because the OS will eat up whatever it gets. The little memory pressure graph you can see in Activity Monitor is quite good, and on my current machine with an "unfortunate" 16 GB of RAM, memory's always full but I have no complaints about speed whatsoever.
Crazy to imagine this, but restricting developers to 16GB machines might be the most effective way to fight against (cough... electron driven) software bloat :-)
fwiw, you can configure a 13" Macbook Pro with an Intel chip up to 32GB. But I agree, I wish they launched the new M1 based 13" Pros with up to 32GB RAM
It definitely would have been a way to differentiate the Pro and the Air rather than giving them identical SOCs.
The low end Air only has 7 GPU cores compared with 8 on the one with more storage. So they must be disabling a bad core and selling it the cheap model. Other than that all these machines use the exact same CPUs. Which means that an iMac or 16" MBP are probably going to use a M1X or something with more cores.
> So they must be disabling a bad core and selling it the cheap model.
I really don't know much (anything) about the hardware manufacturing world. Is this a common practice?
I really don't know much (anything) about the hardware manufacturing world. Is this a common practice?
Yes. Chip fabrication is super sensitive to the condition of the silicon wafer used. Chip companies talk about yields, because some percentage of chips can't, for example, be run at the highest clock rate. Indeed, some can't run reliably at all. If there is a microscopic flaw on the wafer that ends up being where one of the cores is located, disabling that core altogether is an option to keep that silicon marketable.
Could be disabling but it could also be the fact to increase yields to their most appealing product.
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The Intel 13" MBP with 2 TB3 ports also topped out at 16GB. They're actually still selling the Intel 13" MBP with 4 TB3 ports, which is the model that can be configured to 32GB.
This is 16GB which is shared with their GPU so it will be interesting to see what limit Apple puts on the GPU for grabbing memory.
There are stories that Apple is working on a gGPU so that would free space up on a future Mx chip for additional processors or memory. However looking at the space occupied by DRAM and GPU it looks like a larger die is required for any on board memory expansion.
There are stories that Apple is working on a gGPU so that would free space up on a future Mx chip for additional processors or memory. However looking at the space occupied by DRAM and GPU it looks like a larger die is required for any on board memory expansion.
Do most people with MacBook Airs have workloads that require more than 16GB or ram or do they generally value a lower price point?
Cost, performance, light weight - pick two right? Apple seems to have picked a combination of lower cost and light weight. Customers who need more ram probably move up to a MBP.
Cost, performance, light weight - pick two right? Apple seems to have picked a combination of lower cost and light weight. Customers who need more ram probably move up to a MBP.
The MacBook Pro is also limited to 16GB.
The 13" MBP has the same limitation.
For the lowest end models right? It's the same tradeoff to bring down prices for people buying the lowest end machines. Presumably they understand that people who need the higher end spec'd machines will wait to buy a new laptop until more software has been migrated to run natively.
If you need a 13" MBP that supports more than 16gb of ram, they sell it. It seems unlikely they'll stick with a 16gb limit once they start replacing the higher end devices.
If you need a 13" MBP that supports more than 16gb of ram, they sell it. It seems unlikely they'll stick with a 16gb limit once they start replacing the higher end devices.
> For the lowest end models right?
For the current M1 models. You can still get 32GB of RAM on the Intel models.
So they're "low end" only in the sense that you can't get more than 16GB of RAM on them.
For the current M1 models. You can still get 32GB of RAM on the Intel models.
So they're "low end" only in the sense that you can't get more than 16GB of RAM on them.
I honestly can't think of a situation where you need more than 16GB of ram on an ultrabook. If your job is heavy video editing - I don't think getting a laptop is a good idea.
I know I use a lot of RAM for compiling and tests, but we have cloud instances with up to 500GB of RAM for that.
Also with the new ARM instructions, I suspect more heavy task like these will be forced to move elsewhere. Businesses might not want to switch for a few years to wait for dev tools/ARM servers to be available.
I know I use a lot of RAM for compiling and tests, but we have cloud instances with up to 500GB of RAM for that.
Also with the new ARM instructions, I suspect more heavy task like these will be forced to move elsewhere. Businesses might not want to switch for a few years to wait for dev tools/ARM servers to be available.
Think of it that way, you are getting a GPU with 16GB Ram. How much do those cost again?
Just because the memory is unified does not mean the GPU can address all of it.
I think that is pretty much what unified means, unless you know that for some reason it can address only 8GB of it or something like that?
This is almost certain to be temporary.
Keep in mind the rollout of the new CPUs is a 2 year process.
Keep in mind the rollout of the new CPUs is a 2 year process.
If they started now. They've been working on this for some time.
This. I just want 32GB and a 13" screen!
Please do explain what your workflow is that requires to you have so much RAM in such a small form factor with a severely limiting CPU and almost non existent GPU?
GPU: don't need it except to drive 1 or 2 external monitors if I'm at my desk (thus small screen not an issue either)
CPU: 8 cores is fine for me
RAM: mainly for a local dev environment running in Docker
For reference I currently have a 2019 16" MBP, with 64GB of RAM and an 8 core i9. Right now I'm using ~45GB of it, usually its up around 50 or 55. The CPU is at ~10%. While I'm developing locally, the workloads are highly bursty but sometimes they will chew up almost all of the CPU for about 10 minutes.
I used to have a 2016 15" MBP with 16GB (4 core i7) and while I could still run everything, the RAM was always pegged. Before that I had a 2016 13" MBP with 16GB (2 core i7) (I actually swapped with a coworker because I thought his 15" had 32GB). With both of these the RAM was by far the limiting factor, and while the increased CPU cores have been nice, most of the time I haven't noticed. The RAM increase on the other hand is always noticeable. Thus, 16GB is a nonstarter for me.
Edit: To add, I prefer the 13" form factor when I'm not at my desk.
For reference I currently have a 2019 16" MBP, with 64GB of RAM and an 8 core i9. Right now I'm using ~45GB of it, usually its up around 50 or 55. The CPU is at ~10%. While I'm developing locally, the workloads are highly bursty but sometimes they will chew up almost all of the CPU for about 10 minutes.
I used to have a 2016 15" MBP with 16GB (4 core i7) and while I could still run everything, the RAM was always pegged. Before that I had a 2016 13" MBP with 16GB (2 core i7) (I actually swapped with a coworker because I thought his 15" had 32GB). With both of these the RAM was by far the limiting factor, and while the increased CPU cores have been nice, most of the time I haven't noticed. The RAM increase on the other hand is always noticeable. Thus, 16GB is a nonstarter for me.
Edit: To add, I prefer the 13" form factor when I'm not at my desk.
That has been available for a while with the Intel chip version:
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/13-inch-space...
If you need 32 GB with the new ARM chips, you’ll probably have to wait a generation or two.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/13-inch-space...
If you need 32 GB with the new ARM chips, you’ll probably have to wait a generation or two.
I'm aware, thanks
"The 16GB RAM limit is unfortunate."
This is a charitable characterization.
More correct would be to term this limit "absurd" or "clownish".
Even if Apple views the use-cases of these machines as primarily consumption devices and the users of these machines not as creators but as consumers, the bloat of the modern web is expensive and getting more expensive every day.
The end user needs this memory even if they really are just using these as facebook machines.
EDIT: That's not just the notebooks - the mini appears to have this limitation as well (down from 64GB previously).
This is a charitable characterization.
More correct would be to term this limit "absurd" or "clownish".
Even if Apple views the use-cases of these machines as primarily consumption devices and the users of these machines not as creators but as consumers, the bloat of the modern web is expensive and getting more expensive every day.
The end user needs this memory even if they really are just using these as facebook machines.
EDIT: That's not just the notebooks - the mini appears to have this limitation as well (down from 64GB previously).
> The end user needs this memory even if they really are just using these as facebook machines.
I webdev (RoR) for a living on a Dell machine with Linux and 8 gigs of RAM. It works beautifully.
Sometimes I browse Facebook and it still works beautifully.
My GF uses my old 2013 MBP with 4 gigs of RAM for college and it works just fine for her. She, too, sometimes browses Facebook.
I webdev (RoR) for a living on a Dell machine with Linux and 8 gigs of RAM. It works beautifully.
Sometimes I browse Facebook and it still works beautifully.
My GF uses my old 2013 MBP with 4 gigs of RAM for college and it works just fine for her. She, too, sometimes browses Facebook.
More and more I perceive Apple to be relieving themselves a #2 on their customers' heads while telling them that they should be thankful and enjoy it.
Who is downvoting your perfectly reasonable thoughts?
How it's done and why?
Not all RAM is created equally. Better memory management means less RAM can be better than more RAM. Pair that with superfast flash storage for SWAP and you might not even be able to tell the difference between 16 and 32.
Besides, this release cycle is 100% optimized for an impressive speed boost, tempered by a need for a more impressive battery life.
The proof will be in the pudding.Time will tell.
Besides, this release cycle is 100% optimized for an impressive speed boost, tempered by a need for a more impressive battery life.
The proof will be in the pudding.Time will tell.
> Better memory management means less RAM can be better than more RAM
No, it can't. If more RAM means it's slower RAM then maybe it can be better to have less of it in some workloads. But otherwise it's never better to have less RAM than more RAM. Better memory management can make the impact of less RAM be less severe, but it's still unambiguously worse.
Especially if you have workloads that actually need the RAM like large ML models or editing 8K videos.
No, it can't. If more RAM means it's slower RAM then maybe it can be better to have less of it in some workloads. But otherwise it's never better to have less RAM than more RAM. Better memory management can make the impact of less RAM be less severe, but it's still unambiguously worse.
Especially if you have workloads that actually need the RAM like large ML models or editing 8K videos.
Only worse if your only goal is "have more RAM".
If the purpose of owning a computer is "get shit done", better memory management absolutely can be better than just throwing more RAM at the problem.
If the purpose of owning a computer is "get shit done", better memory management absolutely can be better than just throwing more RAM at the problem.
> better memory management absolutely can be better than just throwing more RAM at the problem.
Those are not competing in any way. Better memory management does not require nor benefit from less RAM.
Apple doesn't give you a different kernel when you choose the 8GB SKU instead of the 16GB one. It's the same software, just with less RAM. And having that less RAM is best case break-even in "day to day" experience, but never better.
Those are not competing in any way. Better memory management does not require nor benefit from less RAM.
Apple doesn't give you a different kernel when you choose the 8GB SKU instead of the 16GB one. It's the same software, just with less RAM. And having that less RAM is best case break-even in "day to day" experience, but never better.
It's true that if the OS could predict exactly which memory pages to keep and which to swap out, we could save memory wastage, but so far I haven't seen any memory management scheme that can reduce memory consumption by half.
For me personally, I won't even consider a machine with less than 32GB ram in 2020/2021. With 32GB, I never close out of applications that I use regularly, and so it allows me to switch state instantaneously for not that much more money. My workloads are typically read-heavy & multiple GBs - editing/screening/cataloging hundreds of RAW photos, loading of multi-GB games, having about 50 tabs open in FF, etc. After having switched careers I rarely code anymore, and I don't think these are uncommon requirements.
For me personally, I won't even consider a machine with less than 32GB ram in 2020/2021. With 32GB, I never close out of applications that I use regularly, and so it allows me to switch state instantaneously for not that much more money. My workloads are typically read-heavy & multiple GBs - editing/screening/cataloging hundreds of RAW photos, loading of multi-GB games, having about 50 tabs open in FF, etc. After having switched careers I rarely code anymore, and I don't think these are uncommon requirements.
Yes that's true, for the "average consumer" that really only needs that RAM to power the 100+ browser tabs they have open. But if you're doing lots of virtualization or containerized work, super fast SWAP isn't going to cut it.
I no longer code so I'm probably close to the 'average consumer' now. I personally consider 32GB to be the minimum amout of RAM that anyone should consider in 2020,2021 (with obvious caveats on money). My multi-GB workloads are read-heavy and include loading multi-GB games, editing hundreds of RAW images, opening 50+ tabs, etc, all without leaving the cosy confines of my RAM - which I still sometimes do. I have a 100GB system commit limit on my W10 box, and with my current usage pattern, I hit about 50GB @ peak.
It's worse. The 13" intel MBP can go up to 32 Gb, but the intel Mac Mini can go up to 64!
16 is basically useless for dev purposes, unless you're only doing web stuff. And maybe not even then, containers/vms?
16 is basically useless for dev purposes, unless you're only doing web stuff. And maybe not even then, containers/vms?
I was literally about to order a new mac mini, until I noticed it only has 16GB max memory. How can they do this?! The previous model could be upgraded to 64GB, had 4 USB-C connectors (instead of now 2) and the option for faster ethernet. It really sounds like this new mac mini is a downgrade from the previous model. I wonder if the new M1 chip/architecture really makes that much difference to make up for the downgrade of the rest.
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The new Air looks good. The new mbp 13” not so much. If they’re going to lower the max ram they should at least provide an explanation why 16g in the new architecture is comparable to 32 in the previous, if that’s indeed the case.
16GB RAM max prevented me from an immediate purchase. Next year, when I can at least have 32GB and be somewhat future-proofed.
That they are still selling new computers for $1000+ in 2020 with 8GB RAM as the default and 16GB of RAM max is a bad joke.
That they are still selling new computers for $1000+ in 2020 with 8GB RAM as the default and 16GB of RAM max is a bad joke.
Dell XPS 1000+ 8GB, Lenovo X1: 1000+ 8GB, Thinkpad T14s 1000+ 8GB, this list could be long. Even System76 linux computers are 1000+ for 8GB config. I do not know where you got this idea that 1000+ laptop have 16GB default.
I am sure there will be consumer (crap) computers like HP pavilion, Dell inspiron etc where one can get 1000+ computer with 16GB or so RAM.
I am sure there will be consumer (crap) computers like HP pavilion, Dell inspiron etc where one can get 1000+ computer with 16GB or so RAM.
My Huawei MateBook 13 2020 Ultra has 16GB and cost ~€1200 i.e. same ball park as the ones you listed (i7, 512GB SSD, 16GB RAM, GeForce MX250, 2736x1824 display).
Apart from the RAM the main reason I went for it was the resolution (I liked the extra height in a 13" form factor). Also, it works with linux - though haven't tried it yet.
Apart from the RAM the main reason I went for it was the resolution (I liked the extra height in a 13" form factor). Also, it works with linux - though haven't tried it yet.
Recently bought a Thinkpad E15 Gen2 with 24 GB of RAM for less than $1000. (Different country though (Japan), and ~6 week wait, but extremely reputable retailer)
* As to how that deal worked, I'm guessing that large retailers that agree to buy a lot of laptops get a large discount.
* As to how that deal worked, I'm guessing that large retailers that agree to buy a lot of laptops get a large discount.
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It's not about the default. It's about the maximum, like I said.
My T460 has had 32GB in it for years now... can't even imagine going back to 16GB with all this electron bullcrap
I finally switched to 32GiB this year, and man, what a difference. I hadn't thought I was all that constrained by 16, but now that I'm not, all the edge cases where that was the pain point are thrown in to relief.
Yeah like running 2 electron apps and chrome
Not strictly comparable, but my company provided Lenovo P1 that's a few years old got 64 GB. Can't imagine having to deal with 16 GB a few years later..
Apple officially has dropped mentioning the CPU frequency for these new Macs (just like they don't mentioned it with iOS devices)
I think it's actually a good move for the first gen. If they put out the CPU frequency, people would be comparing it to the intel parts. ARM and x86 being different architectures, a 2GHz M1 is going to perform differently than a 2GHz Core i5
There's been dozens of macs that have come out with a lower baseline frequency than the last gen. My ancient 2004 ibook G4 has a higher frequency than a 2020 macbook air, doesn't mean customers conflate it to be faster nor should they if your marketing was worth a damn.
It is sorta meaningless these days. The 3.6GHz chip in my P consistently averages at 4.3GHz, and climbs up to high 4's when it needs to. It's also much faster than a 3.6GHz processor from 5 years ago.
It's a great baseline for comparing same-generation computers, though. Without benchmarks, none of us has any idea which is faster, the Air or the Pro, or the 15".
It's a great baseline for comparing same-generation computers, though. Without benchmarks, none of us has any idea which is faster, the Air or the Pro, or the 15".
Indeed. The CPU is 3.5x faster "than before". What is this before? December 2020 or the last time they made their own chip?
And "faster than the latest Intel mobile CPU".
Note they say "latest", not "best". That means that a Celeron 5205U, dual core processor with 1.9GHz, no turbo, no hyper threading, 2MB L1, would be a valid baseline.
Note they say "latest", not "best". That means that a Celeron 5205U, dual core processor with 1.9GHz, no turbo, no hyper threading, 2MB L1, would be a valid baseline.
Yep we're 4X this and 3X that and here is a graph with a 2 curves and no scale, but it's a glowing line!
Then the top model still ships with a Radeon mobile chip. So... your super duper M1 graphics, not so super duper.
Then the top model still ships with a Radeon mobile chip. So... your super duper M1 graphics, not so super duper.
And if you look at the tiny, tiny, dark-gray-on-black footnotes, they're making these comparisons with things like...the i3 Mac Minis. Not impressive.
Apple's direction of marketing is better suited for mainstream consumers. Many of them don't know what CPU frequency means. For them, its additional noise with no added value. Consumers have too many choices and throwing a spec sheet often make them compare for hours and still can't make a decision whereas you know that this year's Mac is likely faster and better than last year's.
What I can't find is how many external monitors can be supported on the M1 chip? I don't see any detailed specs. Al they say about the M1 specs are:
"The Apple M1 chip is the first system on a chip (SoC) for Mac. Packed with an astonishing 16 billion transistors, it integrates the CPU, GPU, I/O, and every other significant component and controller onto a single tiny chip. Designed by Apple, M1 brings incredible performance, custom technologies, and unparalleled power efficiency to the Mac.
With an 8‑core CPU and 8‑core GPU, M1 on MacBook Pro delivers up to 2.8x faster CPU performance¹ and up to 5x faster graphics² than the previous generation."
"The Apple M1 chip is the first system on a chip (SoC) for Mac. Packed with an astonishing 16 billion transistors, it integrates the CPU, GPU, I/O, and every other significant component and controller onto a single tiny chip. Designed by Apple, M1 brings incredible performance, custom technologies, and unparalleled power efficiency to the Mac.
With an 8‑core CPU and 8‑core GPU, M1 on MacBook Pro delivers up to 2.8x faster CPU performance¹ and up to 5x faster graphics² than the previous generation."
From MacBook Pro tech specs:
Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors and:
One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz Thunderbolt 3 digital video output
Native DisplayPort output over USB-C VGA, HDMI, DVI, and Thunderbolt 2 output supported using adapters (sold separately)
Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors and:
One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz Thunderbolt 3 digital video output
Native DisplayPort output over USB-C VGA, HDMI, DVI, and Thunderbolt 2 output supported using adapters (sold separately)
That's disappointing. Dual 4k isn't that uncommon. Sounds like their chip isn't quite as powerful as they're leading on?
You run two 4k screens and the laptop screen itself from an existing 13" laptop?
At practically every desk in Silicon Valley for 4+ years, yes. Two 27" 4K Dell UltraSharps and a choice of 13" or 15" Macbook Pro are standard issue for an engineer.
i work at faang and cannot confirm, sadly. 1 4k or 2 1080p
You can do that on the intel macbook air.
Shouldn't one 6k display be the same data transfer as two 4k displays?
Yeah I’m hoping it’s just a case of them not having the specs in right. Otherwise it would be a pretty poor downgrade for those that use two monitors. I don’t use the laptop screen either when docked so really no reason it shouldn’t be able to drive them.
Am I reading right that it only supports one display output? I may be reading that incorrectly....
I was under the impression that Native display port would be able to drive 2 external monitors. I do not consider my self to be an authoritative source on this.
DisplayPort 1.4 can chain up to 6 displays at 1080p. It can only chain two 4K@60Hz.
However that requires MST support which afaik is missing from OSX entirely.
However that requires MST support which afaik is missing from OSX entirely.
It will only drive one 4k display at 60hz, I would imagine it would support multiple lower resolutions with no issues.
That would be weird. Thunderbolt 3 supports 2x 4K60, so this should as well.
I keep seeing comments about lack of MST support but they're ignoring that you can currently already like you say drive dual 4k60. I'm doing it right now.
You probably has monitors with native thunderbolt input? They are not that many such monitor exists. Without MST you are out of luck to do thing with Display Port (via DP, mDP or USB-C), and this is what majority of monitors on market has.
No, they're both DP. Thunderbolt 3 can do dual 4k60 over a single cable (including also providing power, ethernet, audio, etc) https://www.caldigit.com/ts3-plus/
OSX doesn’t support MST.
Perhaps not (I've never tried daisy chaining) but a MacBook Pro can drive two 4K@60Hz monitors over a single Thunderbolt 3 dock cable (I'm doing it right now).
You don't need MST to be able to connect to 2 monitors
Presumably if you're not using the laptops screen it can drive two.
Strange, they list the resolution you can use if you use one external display. What about two monitors? I don't believe you could only have one display connected, that would be ridiculous, but I also don't understand why they only write about one display and not about many?
Possibly because OSX still doesn't support DisplayPort multi-stream and you can't plug multiple monitors into one USB-C port.
What? I can run currently two monitors over thunderbolt 3 with a caldigit dock no problem.
Exactly, a Thunderbolt 3 dock. If you're trying to use an (inexpensive) adaptor that takes advantage of USB-C DP alt modes you will run into this problem.
Ironically, if you boot into Windows you can use these cheap USB-C adaptors with no issues.
https://www.startech.com/en-us/faq/mst-hubs-mac-osx-support
Ironically, if you boot into Windows you can use these cheap USB-C adaptors with no issues.
https://www.startech.com/en-us/faq/mst-hubs-mac-osx-support
Thanks, didn't realize the laptop only had one port on it.
For the Mac mini: "Connect one external display up to 6K and a second with HDMI 2.0 up to 4K."
https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/
https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/
https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/
One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz
One display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz connected via Thunderbolt and one display with up to 4K resolution at 60Hz connected via HDMI 2.0[deleted]
I'm also curious if eGPUs are still supported.
Not likely, lack of arm build drivers and all. Though with the Mac Pro I'm curious how they'll handle hardware upgrades. I hope they don't revert back to trashcan mac like video situations.
I backed a game a while ago on Kickstarter with native support for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Several weeks ago they sent us a message saying they were ditching the MacOS version due the architecture change.
I wonder how it'll affect the whole ecosystem. I think it'll end being like an iOS on steroids.
I wonder how it'll affect the whole ecosystem. I think it'll end being like an iOS on steroids.
I think their hope is that the Mac's anemic game ecosystem will be filled in by iOS games which run natively. I hope they're right, and I say that as someone who has a gaming PC and still hasn't found many quality core games on iOS.
The fact that they say it will run the iOS version of "among us" and HBO max, means I think your right.
Considering most developers who have ported from x86 to MacOS have had few issues, it seems like the ecosystem will be just fine. Also, all the big pro software developers—Adobe, Microsoft, Apple—are onboard.
Hard to say what this will do to gaming on MacOS, but gaming has never been the big strength of MacOS.
Hard to say what this will do to gaming on MacOS, but gaming has never been the big strength of MacOS.
Gaming isn't strong on MacOS but it is fairly strong on Mac if you're dual-booting windows.
[deleted]
How hard would it be to release an ARM version? Also out of curiosity, what game was it?
> How hard would it be to release an ARM version?
Depends on the engine the game uses. Games built on top of frameworks like Unity, Unreal Engine and the like get platform support basically "for free" as long as the framework in question supports the target platform.
Any in-house developed engine might either depend on 3rd party support (e.g. libraries like SFML[1]) or need to be recompiled for the new platform. Depending on architectural differences, optimisation and asset loading (in case endianness[2] differs) needs to be altered accordingly.
The main reason for a decision to cancel a release would be time and effort vs expected sales. The Mac market will be fragmented into Intel and Apple Silicon from now on and every "Mac version" would really be two separate ports (complete with separate QA and optimisation).
An independent studio might just not have the resources and experience to tackle this and a port that doesn't sell can effectively be worse than not releasing on a platform.
edit: [1] https://www.sfml-dev.org [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
Depends on the engine the game uses. Games built on top of frameworks like Unity, Unreal Engine and the like get platform support basically "for free" as long as the framework in question supports the target platform.
Any in-house developed engine might either depend on 3rd party support (e.g. libraries like SFML[1]) or need to be recompiled for the new platform. Depending on architectural differences, optimisation and asset loading (in case endianness[2] differs) needs to be altered accordingly.
The main reason for a decision to cancel a release would be time and effort vs expected sales. The Mac market will be fragmented into Intel and Apple Silicon from now on and every "Mac version" would really be two separate ports (complete with separate QA and optimisation).
An independent studio might just not have the resources and experience to tackle this and a port that doesn't sell can effectively be worse than not releasing on a platform.
edit: [1] https://www.sfml-dev.org [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
Last Epoch.
It's made by an indie studio which doesn't have the resources to port a game like this to a ARM. They also use a lot of third party software so it's not even up to them.
It's made by an indie studio which doesn't have the resources to port a game like this to a ARM. They also use a lot of third party software so it's not even up to them.
For a traditional PC/console game, it's likely porting to Metal is the bigger issue.
Looks like the Mac mini no longer has the ability to have a 10GBe Ethernet port. So, we could get 64GB of RAM and 10GBe in the last generation, and now this.
They still sell Intel version, it's not gone. Also I think that there will be USB dongles for 10GBe Ethernet which is not as convenient, for sure, but bearable. And RAM limit is unfortunate indeed. I wouldn't buy 8GB RAM in 2020 at all and 16GB is barely enough, so this device won't last long given the lack of upgradability. Probably better RAM options will come next year.
Well, the current USB-C to 10GBe is a big box (about two decks of playing cards) and costs about $150. I'm a bit unhappy about it. When a community college is starting to buy all 10GBe interfaces, its about time for Apple to move on.
I'm going to get two Mac minis to look at, and then wait to replace my current machine when 32 or 64 GB ARM machines are available.
I'm going to get two Mac minis to look at, and then wait to replace my current machine when 32 or 64 GB ARM machines are available.
Straw poll: I need a new development machine, price is not an object but it has to be a Mac. Should I buy this new M1 or go with the Intel 16 inch MBP?
My gut says there’s going to be a year or two of cross-compilation nightmares. I do a lot of Docker-based development. Wondering what everyone else thinks?
My gut says there’s going to be a year or two of cross-compilation nightmares. I do a lot of Docker-based development. Wondering what everyone else thinks?
I sometimes wonder what the overhead of Docker costs on a Mac. The fact that you have to run a whole linux VM, with guest OS, then send data back and forth over that, especially with volume mapping. I'm sure it can be quantified over running linux directly on the same hardware.
My machine (MacBook Pro 13-inch, 2018, 2.7 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7, 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3) often runs screaming hot (with screaming fans too), when I only have a browser, zoom, docker and IntelliJ running, and I wonder what went wrong.
My machine (MacBook Pro 13-inch, 2018, 2.7 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7, 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3) often runs screaming hot (with screaming fans too), when I only have a browser, zoom, docker and IntelliJ running, and I wonder what went wrong.
Yeah, it’s pretty crazy especially when you’ve got a bunch of bind mounts. My current machine is a 2013 MBA and after cumulative 100+ hours of fighting with docker over the years, I finally gave up and started using remote development in VSCode on a Linux server. That was a great decision.
Glad to hear this has gone well. My current plan is to stick a Linux workstation under my desk and then use my MacBook for remote vscode.
Last time I tried that the network file serving was a bottleneck. But I guess there comes a point where you have to choose your bottleneck.
VSC is the real workhorse here. It’s way beyond something like an SSHFS mount. The server actually runs an instance of VSC. It’s really quite good and I don’t even notice I’m editing on another machine. Would recommend trying it.
Thanks, today I learned something. I'll try it out.
All the more disappointing that Jetbrains won't support a language server beyond Intellij.
All the more disappointing that Jetbrains won't support a language server beyond Intellij.
Yeah, Docker is an issue for me as well. Great idea! Thanks! Care to share any more details? Who is hosting what configuration?
Just google VSCode Remote Development. It’s very easy to setup. I personally use a Scaleway machine.
Have you tried Turbo Boost Switcher?
It does wonders for my 2019 16 MBP, ensuring the fans very rarely kick in and CPU temps stay reasonable doing similar workloads to what you describe.
It does wonders for my 2019 16 MBP, ensuring the fans very rarely kick in and CPU temps stay reasonable doing similar workloads to what you describe.
> I sometimes wonder what the overhead of Docker costs on a Mac.
I wouldn't use Docker on a Mac. The fan goes like crazy the whole time, and the battery life is like an hour or less. Whereas with vagrant and virtualbox the fan stays off and the battery lasts all day.
I wouldn't use Docker on a Mac. The fan goes like crazy the whole time, and the battery life is like an hour or less. Whereas with vagrant and virtualbox the fan stays off and the battery lasts all day.
The memory approaches the limit and MacOS starts to compress it which is CPU intensive. Try to limit RAM for Docker VM.
Go for the 16 inch. I’ve upgraded from my 2015 model (couldn’t stand the butterfly keys) and the wait was worth it! Great keyboard, physical escape key, 16 threads, large screen - great machine. It took them 5 years to get there so don’t get your hopes up for this new one ;-)
Yeah, I think that’s what I’ll do. Although the 16” is bigger than I need; I wish they kept the 13” Intel lineup available.
I wish they kept the 13” Intel lineup available.
They did. They're right there in the store below the M1 models. Just scroll a little bit.
They did. They're right there in the store below the M1 models. Just scroll a little bit.
There are still some MBP-13 Intels (i5) with 4 Thunderbolt ports + more RAM still available I think?
Hm... not that I can find on their online store.
There for me on both US + NZ stores:
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/13-inch
scroll down to second row...
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/13-inch
scroll down to second row...
Oh! I totally missed that :) thanks!
As with anything brand new - wait for the 2nd version of it, especially if you are a power user.
For such workflow 16gb is not enough. Docker on Mac is a VM and you need to have a lot of ram for disc caching to compensate for slow IO in VM even if 16GB looks like they could do it.
Get the Apple Silicon. If it doesn't meet your expectations, return it and get the Intel one. Returns are trivial with Apple if within 2 weeks (might be longer now with covid).
Orders from Apple Online are currently return eligible through January 8
This is terrible advice, with new launches like this there's always a ton of compatibilities issues and you don't want to spend ages getting the device setup to realise some specific software that you must use isn't supported or sit around waiting for updates to support the new system.
Why not just wait a few weeks post release to get a reviewers take on using the new device as a development machine?
Why not just wait a few weeks post release to get a reviewers take on using the new device as a development machine?
Oh really? That’s good to know. Thanks!
To be honest. You should wait a few weeks for all the expected reviews which will not only perform performance comparisons but highlight what software works that which does not
Should I buy this new M1 or go with the Intel 16 inch MBP?
IMO, it depends on how long you're going to keep your computer.
If you're the sort of person who keeps using the same computer for eight or nine years, you don't want to end up on the old chips when all the software has migrated years earlier.
Imagine still running a PowerMac in 2010.
I was ready to buy an M1 model, but the deal breaker for me is the screen. I use a 2011 Air. An 11" screen was fine a decade ago, but my eyes aren't what they used to be, and I don't think 13" is going to cut it. When a 15" or 16" option becomes available, I'm there.
IMO, it depends on how long you're going to keep your computer.
If you're the sort of person who keeps using the same computer for eight or nine years, you don't want to end up on the old chips when all the software has migrated years earlier.
Imagine still running a PowerMac in 2010.
I was ready to buy an M1 model, but the deal breaker for me is the screen. I use a 2011 Air. An 11" screen was fine a decade ago, but my eyes aren't what they used to be, and I don't think 13" is going to cut it. When a 15" or 16" option becomes available, I'm there.
I'd say the 16, but with a caveat. By itself it is a great machine. In clamshell mode with an external 4k screen it is a great machine. With the laptop screen open connected to an external 4k screen it is EXTREMELY noisy and hot.
~173 pages of complaints on Macrumors here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/16-is-hot-noisy-with-an...
~173 pages of complaints on Macrumors here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/16-is-hot-noisy-with-an...
What difference does having it closed make? I keep my on a stand but open just for slack really. It does make a hell of a racket when I’ve got a lot of containers running.
In clamshell mode it only has to drive one display, so it demands a lower baseline of memory, CPU, GPU, ...
Is the reality of the 4k era that if you want dual monitors and peformance that you have to go back to 1080p monitors? Looks like I'll be holding onto my $100 dell screens for a while yet.
> but it has to be a Mac.
Bummer. I just paid $3200 for a lower end Lenovo P620 (only 12 cores), and similarly spec'd Apple machines were running almost $8k, and benchmarks say the Macs are technically slower. These were desktop workstations, though.
I know it doesn't help your decision, but I'm still excited about the new computer
Bummer. I just paid $3200 for a lower end Lenovo P620 (only 12 cores), and similarly spec'd Apple machines were running almost $8k, and benchmarks say the Macs are technically slower. These were desktop workstations, though.
I know it doesn't help your decision, but I'm still excited about the new computer
Can you run docker and virtualisation software on these? I read a comment about Federighi mentioning that there's no EFI or dual boot, which I can't find now, and I assumed there's no virtualisation at all.
There’s ARM virtualization.
Get a macbook air and use docker on a remote linux box?
At work we use a big ass linux vm to connect to (running docker, etc.). Saves a lot of battery power, and no macos-docker shenanigans.
At work we use a big ass linux vm to connect to (running docker, etc.). Saves a lot of battery power, and no macos-docker shenanigans.
With Rosetta a lot of x86_64 programs actually do work, and the porting to arm64 is not _that_ bad.
Besides you get all iPhone/iPad apps :)
For development, definitely the Intel. Most Macs in use would be Intel Macs for a while.
If you need something new yea I'd go with the Intel MBP right now.
I'm interested to see the benchmarks vs. comparable AMD systems. Some of the claims, like 2x performance increase on the MBP are impressive, but intel laptops have been absolutely trounced by AMD 4000-series laptops of late.
Also will be interested to see the benchmarks of the integrated GPU vs. discreet GPU performance.
Also will be interested to see the benchmarks of the integrated GPU vs. discreet GPU performance.
> Also will be interested to see the benchmarks of the integrated GPU vs. discreet GPU performance.
If they're "only" claiming 2x over anyone else' integrated, then it's not going to be all that interesting to compare integrated vs. discreet. By comparison here the 2060 Max Q is around 4x faster than the Vega 8 in the 4800U.
Although that 2x faster than anyone else's integrated also has some really big question marks on the claim. The fine-print on that claim includes:
"Integrated GPU is defined as a GPU located on a monolithic silicon die along with a CPU and memory controller, behind a unified memory subsystem"
Which sounds a bit weasel-y like it's trying to specifically exclude what's commonly thought of as integrated graphics like the two-die approach in Tigerlake. Which how the product is packaged shouldn't really matter?
If they're "only" claiming 2x over anyone else' integrated, then it's not going to be all that interesting to compare integrated vs. discreet. By comparison here the 2060 Max Q is around 4x faster than the Vega 8 in the 4800U.
Although that 2x faster than anyone else's integrated also has some really big question marks on the claim. The fine-print on that claim includes:
"Integrated GPU is defined as a GPU located on a monolithic silicon die along with a CPU and memory controller, behind a unified memory subsystem"
Which sounds a bit weasel-y like it's trying to specifically exclude what's commonly thought of as integrated graphics like the two-die approach in Tigerlake. Which how the product is packaged shouldn't really matter?
The claim was 2x CPU performance over the previous 13" MBP, and 5-6x GPU performance over the previous integrated graphics.
https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/
There's no claim of any 5-6x faster than previous there. It says "fastest integrated" (and in the fine print that integrated is specifically unified monolithic die, eliminating chiplet-style products), and then also "M1 delivers significantly higher graphics performance than the very latest PC laptop chip — for up to 2x the graphics speed."
So take the 4800U, which has among the fastest commercially available integrated graphics in a monolithic die, and double the GPU performance. If you needed a discreet GPU in your laptop previously this probably won't change that.
There's no claim of any 5-6x faster than previous there. It says "fastest integrated" (and in the fine print that integrated is specifically unified monolithic die, eliminating chiplet-style products), and then also "M1 delivers significantly higher graphics performance than the very latest PC laptop chip — for up to 2x the graphics speed."
So take the 4800U, which has among the fastest commercially available integrated graphics in a monolithic die, and double the GPU performance. If you needed a discreet GPU in your laptop previously this probably won't change that.
I don't think they included Intel's new Xe or AMD's APU in those 2x for iGPUs.
They claim 2 TFlops for their GPU. RTX 3090 features 143 TFlops.
What would be a comparable card at 2 TFlops?
Actually I'm not sure that my number is correct, so I better won't spread misinformation. It's not clear what those Apple flops really mean and there are multiple characteristics for modern GPUs which are measured in flops with different values: half precision, single precision, double precision, tensor compute, sparse tensor compute.
Up to 20 hours of battery life on the MacBook Pro. If anything, I believe the increased battery life will be what most people will notice.
For me, battery life has been the biggest disappointment with the 2018 MBP. It used to be that if one paid more for a MBP, one got more of everything. With the last couple gens of Intel MacBooks, one had to choose: speed? battery life? Now their lineup (and pricing) makes sense again.
They also say "compiles 4x code" on the video.
It is interesting to abstract battery life as a limit of how many values can be calculated.
total flops before failure assuming you lose half your battery life from display regardless.
Only up to 16gb of memory on the M1 MacBook Pro?!?! The intel one is configurable to 32gb. Choosing between memory and CPU. So torn, so disappointed.
P.S. I’m a developer, like many here.
(Edit: specify the M1, not the existing Intel.)
P.S. I’m a developer, like many here.
(Edit: specify the M1, not the existing Intel.)
The Intel one takes up to 64 GB – at least that's how much mine has.
16 inch? I believe the 13” Intel is limited to 32gb max.
That does seem weird. Probably Apple doesn't care about developers or rather expects them to wait for the 16 inch version?
Personally I brought a windows workstation laptop and I have pretty much regretted that most of the time - if you are going for that kind of performance, running VMs, etc you are probably better of with a desktop. I expect that if you build a system with the new Ryzen 3 you can smoke almost any of the new mac models for 50%-75% of the cost.
Screws you pretty hard if you actually need the computer to be a mac for some reason.
Personally I brought a windows workstation laptop and I have pretty much regretted that most of the time - if you are going for that kind of performance, running VMs, etc you are probably better of with a desktop. I expect that if you build a system with the new Ryzen 3 you can smoke almost any of the new mac models for 50%-75% of the cost.
Screws you pretty hard if you actually need the computer to be a mac for some reason.
And it's no longer user accessible. No more saving money by buying 8gb and upgrading manually, even on the Mac Mini
RAM on MacBooks hasn’t been upgradable for quite some time. I’d say at least 2 or 3 generations.
[deleted]
I was eager to buy this one too (my primary device is Windows), and this is what stops me from buying it this year too.
There's a 64GB version.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch-space...
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch-space...
That's an Intel MBP, not an M1 MBP.
[deleted]
> Only up to 16gb of memory on the MacBook Pro?!?!
It supports up to 64GB of 2666MHz DDR4 memory. (Source: Went through the "Buy" process to see the options.)
It supports up to 64GB of 2666MHz DDR4 memory. (Source: Went through the "Buy" process to see the options.)
I wonder, is the 8GB vs. 16GB "unified memory" the kind of thing where all of the hardware actually has 16GB, but they disable half of it to sell the lower price version? Like Tesla's Model S 40 kwh?
Probably binning where faulty memory gets disabled and flagged as a 8GB chip?
Intel did that for the 486SX processor 30 years ago. The 486 was the first x86 CPU with an integrated FPU. Chips that failed the FPU test were sold as cheaper 486SX with the FPU disabled.
Intel did that for the 486SX processor 30 years ago. The 486 was the first x86 CPU with an integrated FPU. Chips that failed the FPU test were sold as cheaper 486SX with the FPU disabled.
That's not the only way they "bin" things. some have one time blow fuses and they will disable parts of the chip if they are being "lean" and just manufacture towards the number they expect to sell of each version. . It costs about as much to make one with an FPU or without it from a chip manufacturing point of view.
I've never heard that the 486SX was a binned 486 - my impression was that it was a deliberate choice done during manufacture. Wikipedia backs up my recollection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX
Yeah, seems like “SX is a binned faulty DX” was a popular but unconfirmed rumor that has stuck with me for 30 years.
The die is the same, but there’s no evidence Intel rebranded rejected DX chips. Here’s an extremely pedantic discussion (when it comes to obsolete hardware, the best kind of discussion) on the topic:
http://www.os2museum.com/wp/lies-damn-lies-and-wikipedia/
The die is the same, but there’s no evidence Intel rebranded rejected DX chips. Here’s an extremely pedantic discussion (when it comes to obsolete hardware, the best kind of discussion) on the topic:
http://www.os2museum.com/wp/lies-damn-lies-and-wikipedia/
The unified memory used to mean that the ram is shared with the graphics card so you have not all available for your use. Also called shared memory.
Very excited for the tear downs of these to understand that as well. Could just be a binning thing as well if there’s faults in the memory.
Curious about the same thing, re: the 7-core GPU vs. the 8-core GPU on the Air. Seems like a pretty arbitrary upgrade (and only a $50 difference).
As with Pavlov's comment about the memory this could be a yield thing. It may be that there are enough dies where one of the cores fails that it's worth turning them into a lower spec model as happened with the 486 SX all those years ago. More than one core failing might not happen often enough to warrant making them a product line.
Lots of people talking about frequency binning and Benning in general. I would like to add in here someplace that AMD used to make 100% identical chips for an entire full lineup and then adjust the frequency and prices to the actual binning process like if they tested a bunch of chips and got a lot that did 3.8 then they sold them all as 3.8 if they did 4.1 they sold them as 4.1 it was quite common to buy the lowest possible cheapest AMD chip and get one that could essentially be and overclock to their number one highest bench chip. See fx 8120 the lowest bulldozer chip overclocking to be and identical performer to the much more expensive and higher chips.
How was this not called AppleCore™
I don't see people mentioning it here, but the Pro machine only supports one external display. People have called the sales rep to confirm and this is indeed the case.
This is kind of bad news for the Pro machine.
This is kind of bad news for the Pro machine.
Entry-level pro? Devaluing the "pro" moniker? The latter isn't new though, they've had to spend years in R&D to try and reinvent the Mac Pro for example.
Yeah, I guess. I just don't understand how my 2015 retina mbp can support up to 4 displays (including the internal one), but this state-of-the-art-3x-gpu-performance chip can't do more than one.
This might be tied to some I/O limitation.
This might be tied to some I/O limitation.
Watching this event was definitely an interesting look at the top rungs of Apple. Their own corporate self-perception has certainly evolved in the last few years. I think many commentators have noted the way that Apple has tried to take its "decisive-break-with-the-past" marketing of prior years and prior hardware generations and make it something that can keep selling into the long term. Making their own chips seems like yet another salvo in that effort. For anyone interested in questions about the corporate structure of Apple behind-the-scenes, you might like this article: https://theorg.com/insights/the-minds-behind-apples-revoluti...
Two fewer Thunderbolt ports on the MacBook Pro. That’s not an upgrade...?
You're comparing it with the wrong computer.
What do you mean by this?
The commenter is stating how the 2016-2019 MBP 13" had 4 thunderbolt ports, and this new one only has 2
The commenter is stating how the 2016-2019 MBP 13" had 4 thunderbolt ports, and this new one only has 2
Not every 13" MacBook Pro has had four Thunderbolt ports; the base model always had just two. This computer clearly replaces that one, and Apple will launch another MacBook Pro in the future to replace the rest.
Oh that's right there was the model without the touchbar that had two ports and was a carryover from 2017, thanks for clarifying
There was a model even with the touchbar that only had two ports and one fan. the four port model got you more cores and two fans, quite a different computer internally despite sharing the same shape and 13" macbook pro label. very confusing for consumers.
Apparently confusing for me as well, because I'd never known of that device and I'm reasonably familiar with Apple's lineup.
Sure enough, it does exist: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP799
Sure enough, it does exist: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP799
It’s fairly recent, to be fair.
Lots I'm impressed with but... it's a shame to see they've cut the storage capacity in half!
Finally with the last update of Macbook Pro they ditched the ridiculous 256gb SSD and went 512/1tb in the 2 pre-built models.
Now we're back to 256/512. The impressively low starting price is hiding behind this and the halving of default RAM too.
Finally with the last update of Macbook Pro they ditched the ridiculous 256gb SSD and went 512/1tb in the 2 pre-built models.
Now we're back to 256/512. The impressively low starting price is hiding behind this and the halving of default RAM too.
I believe that was only for the higher end 4 port MacBook Pro 13, not the lower end 2 port version that the new ARM version is replacing.
Interestingly, the Air and the Pro now are almost identical in specs: same SoC, same display, same connectors, same RAM, same SSDs.
On the plus side I only see the larger battery for the Pro. On the minus side it's more heavy and a bit more bulky. And it's got the TouchBar (I'd count that as a negative...).
Honestly, why spend the $300 extra? I'd take the Air any day.
On the plus side I only see the larger battery for the Pro. On the minus side it's more heavy and a bit more bulky. And it's got the TouchBar (I'd count that as a negative...).
Honestly, why spend the $300 extra? I'd take the Air any day.
I missed something — will older apps still work or must all your apps be new versions, recompiled for M1?
They have Rosetta 2 (translates Intel apps to Arm) and said the integrated graphics are so much faster than Intel's you can expect faster performance in games than before.
I am quite skeptical of this but let's see.
I am quite skeptical of this but let's see.
Rosetta 1 worked perfectly, but Apple dropped it after 2 OS versions. Fool me once and all that.
Will this translation happen at runtime?
Rosetta 2 is the translation layer to keep older versions running on the new chip.
Older apps are _supposed to_ work as is (with Rosetta).
[deleted]
They mentioned Rosetta 2 - emulation layer for Intel-only apps.
It's a translation, to be precise, not emulation.
It's both.
Older apps will run via Rosetta 2
Url changed from https://www.apple.com/mac/ to the press release with more info. If there's a more accurate and neutral third-party article, let me know and we can change it again.
Have they said anything about hyperkit on the new platform? And being able to run stuff like Docker for Mac?
I've seen lots said about the lack of Bootcamp support but I've actually never even used Bootcamp, Linux VMS are much more relevant for me and I imagine many other developers.
I've seen lots said about the lack of Bootcamp support but I've actually never even used Bootcamp, Linux VMS are much more relevant for me and I imagine many other developers.
From their roadmap, it does not appear they have really investigated this yet. [1]
Rosetta 2 translates Mac apps and can deal with JIT, but I do not believe it will work through virtualization.
It should be relatively light lifting to make Docker for Mac run an ARM linux installation and ARM-built containers.
From there, you likely would want to strategically add multi-arch container support to the docker runtime. This might be implemented based on existing qemu containers [2]
1: https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/142
2: https://github.com/multiarch/qemu-user-static
Rosetta 2 translates Mac apps and can deal with JIT, but I do not believe it will work through virtualization.
It should be relatively light lifting to make Docker for Mac run an ARM linux installation and ARM-built containers.
From there, you likely would want to strategically add multi-arch container support to the docker runtime. This might be implemented based on existing qemu containers [2]
1: https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/142
2: https://github.com/multiarch/qemu-user-static
Rosetta is all emulation, there’s no virtualization involved.
During WWDC, they explicitly said that Apple Silicon will support virtualization and Docker. Rosetta doesn't work for virtualization though, so you have to run an ARM version of Linux. They don't support booting directly to a non-Mac OS, AFAIK.
Rumor has it that they'll eventually support virtualized Windows, but it's currently impossible for an end-user to buy a copy of ARM Windows.
Rumor has it that they'll eventually support virtualized Windows, but it's currently impossible for an end-user to buy a copy of ARM Windows.
Windows 10 version for raspberry pi used to be freely available
Do you want to run a Linux/x86_64 VM or a Linux/aarch64 one ?
Well if I get to choose then I might as well ask for both.
But ultimately I don't really care, I just want to `docker run postgres:latest` to develop web and mobile applications against against, and build a Dockerfile to be able to run a server-side ruby, python, java, go, etc. app locally for development.
But ultimately I don't really care, I just want to `docker run postgres:latest` to develop web and mobile applications against against, and build a Dockerfile to be able to run a server-side ruby, python, java, go, etc. app locally for development.
Surprised that they didn’t take the opportunity to update the industrial design, especially of the MacBook Air which retains its wedge-shaped heft.
They returned to the design elements introduced for the iPhone 4 in the iPhone 12. That general form would be pretty interesting for an ultra portable laptop.
From a marketing standpoint it doesn't make sense to update the design (this is typical Apple from what I've observed) - People will buy into the novelty of the new CPUs. For the refresh, you will probably see some design changes.
How would you improve on the Air? It's such a beautiful, sleek little thing. I've currently got a 13" Pro and it just feels so damn clunky next to the succession of Airs it replaced.
Weight? It is almost a pound heavier than the discontinued Macbook 12".
It's interesting that all the chips are branded as the M1 - I wonder if there are any clock, memory or cache differences between the devices?
I'm pretty sure they're all identical chips. No doubt there are clocking differences. But that may be automatic based on thermals and not actually represent a difference in the actual chip.
The base model m1 air has a 7 core gpu compared with 8 core in the others.
It probably has 8 cores, just that one failed and they disabled it. Making CPUs is expensive and a faulty process.
A lot of CPU given any release is the same high end CPU with faulty cores disabled.
A lot of CPU given any release is the same high end CPU with faulty cores disabled.
For the Apple TV, they can overclock since it’s plugged into the wall. They may do something similar here.
I'd imagine thermal throttling will be responsible for actual performance differences across devices (but this is just a guess)
Yes I'm waiting for the shop to open to find out if they can be configured - I bet not.
EDIT: the store does not let you configure anything but the RAM which is absurdly expensive.
EDIT: the store does not let you configure anything but the RAM which is absurdly expensive.
This is going to be awkward and then it'll eventually become pretty good. From Apple's perspective, they're making the right move to their own CPU design. Apple has always been about controlling the user experience and by bringing it all in-house it takes things that were out of their control (Intel) and allows them to increase their vertical integration, unifying their product lines, and increasing market differentiation.
It's been clear for a while that ARM processors have hit near desktop performance and it took the megacompany of Apple to push it over the edge.
I'm a dedicated non-Mac user at home, but at work I always chose the MBP option over the craptastic Dell PoS that'll start turning into broken plastic pieces within a year or the latest Microsoft offering which seems to suffer from endless software and driver struggles.
The software story will take a while to work out, but Apple has made this transition TWO times before, which is astonishing. Nobody else has done this successfully. Part of the reason is there is simply less of a need among Mac users to maintain backwards compatibility and simply far less software to carry forward. Even then, it appears that Apple has done some kind of magic to allow older software to work on the new architecture without too much fuss -- I'm awaiting some benchmarks!
(This will hopefully push more of the industry to look at desktop ARM systems)
It's been clear for a while that ARM processors have hit near desktop performance and it took the megacompany of Apple to push it over the edge.
I'm a dedicated non-Mac user at home, but at work I always chose the MBP option over the craptastic Dell PoS that'll start turning into broken plastic pieces within a year or the latest Microsoft offering which seems to suffer from endless software and driver struggles.
The software story will take a while to work out, but Apple has made this transition TWO times before, which is astonishing. Nobody else has done this successfully. Part of the reason is there is simply less of a need among Mac users to maintain backwards compatibility and simply far less software to carry forward. Even then, it appears that Apple has done some kind of magic to allow older software to work on the new architecture without too much fuss -- I'm awaiting some benchmarks!
(This will hopefully push more of the industry to look at desktop ARM systems)
Lots of comments from people complaining about the lack of 32GB of RAM. Can someone explain to me the need for 32GB of RAM as a developer? Is it the IDE or your particular application area? As for me, I do all my professional development (C++17/Linux, Vim, EDA industry) on a five year old T450s with 12GB of RAM. For me the limiting factor is CPU power for sure. I only run out of RAM running some of the larger customer tests for which I have to go to a beefy machine in our network, but that happens rarely.
I can easily make good use of 32 GB doing normal full stack development: Browser, Visual Studio Code, a few Docker containers including PostgreSQL, Slack.
Actually this should consume a dozen GB of RAM more or less, the rest is in caches, which I think you're undervaluing a lot. Having everything you use in hot caches means any applications starts in a couple hundred of milliseconds, and everything is as fast as your RAM and CPU are, especially if you're running an OS that has a good implementation of file caching (e.g. Linux).
Having more leeway means I never have to close anything if I forget to. I might have my dev environment chugging along in a desktop workspace, while I'm in another with a few dozen browser tabs, talking on Discord with a full screen game running on the other monitor.
That's what a £150 module of 32 GB of RAM gives me. But actually I'm running 64 GB :-)
Actually this should consume a dozen GB of RAM more or less, the rest is in caches, which I think you're undervaluing a lot. Having everything you use in hot caches means any applications starts in a couple hundred of milliseconds, and everything is as fast as your RAM and CPU are, especially if you're running an OS that has a good implementation of file caching (e.g. Linux).
Having more leeway means I never have to close anything if I forget to. I might have my dev environment chugging along in a desktop workspace, while I'm in another with a few dozen browser tabs, talking on Discord with a full screen game running on the other monitor.
That's what a £150 module of 32 GB of RAM gives me. But actually I'm running 64 GB :-)
I do CAD.
Both SolidWorks and Altium are such RAM hogs that I’ve had to upgrade to 64GB.
It would be lovely to work on laptops, since it’s the default assumption for most managers, so I either stick out as a weirdo for asking for a desktop every time I switch jobs, or shut up and spend most of my day dealing with slow laptops and random crashes, and having to make design choices around my computer (unnecessary) limitations.
Both SolidWorks and Altium are such RAM hogs that I’ve had to upgrade to 64GB.
It would be lovely to work on laptops, since it’s the default assumption for most managers, so I either stick out as a weirdo for asking for a desktop every time I switch jobs, or shut up and spend most of my day dealing with slow laptops and random crashes, and having to make design choices around my computer (unnecessary) limitations.
Chrome (~1-4Gb), Slack with quite a few orgs (~2Gb), Discord again with quite a few orgs (~1Gb), Docker for local dev work (~1-8Gb), Gopls (golang's language server) (~1Gb per open vscode).
Running out of RAM is not my main problem, continuously swapping is as has a performance hit across the whole system for some reason.
As with many things, it's not a NEED, it's more that having to care about what I have open at any given moment gets annoying.
Running out of RAM is not my main problem, continuously swapping is as has a performance hit across the whole system for some reason.
As with many things, it's not a NEED, it's more that having to care about what I have open at any given moment gets annoying.
> Chrome (~1-4Gb), Slack with quite a few orgs (~2Gb), Discord again with quite a few orgs (~1Gb)
Those ravenous apps are the problem here. Seriously, fuck Electron.
Those ravenous apps are the problem here. Seriously, fuck Electron.
I know Android Studio will basically eat up however much RAM is on your system. Also, with containers becoming more common, lots of people use something like Docker Compose locally to mock multiple services or parts of a system, which, depending on how well optimized those containers are, can add up quickly.
Had a t470s (24Gb), now on a p1 gen 2 (32Gb). Even 24Gb can feel limited when running kubernetes, number of docker images, oracle rdbms, kafka, java development environment, a browser, office suite...
4 gb for Chrome tabs, 6 gb for your docker WM, 2gb or whatever slack requires, 2gb because your music is now streamed and the app is just a few html pages rendered through Chrome. Plus a couple of gb for your IntelliJ IDE.
If you are writing C++ in Vim for an embedded platform, you are limited by CPU power because C is so heavy to compile, but you are most likely also not likely to be the typical HNer.
If you are writing C++ in Vim for an embedded platform, you are limited by CPU power because C is so heavy to compile, but you are most likely also not likely to be the typical HNer.
I asked the same question. I get why people need more than 16GB of RAM, but honestly a lot of the answers seem to neglect that RAM (in most laptops) is not going to be your limiter, the CPU and/or GPU will be the limiter first for many of the cases people list. At that point, no amount of RAM will save you (though it may help).
Any applications with image processing are usually bottlenecked by the available RAM on a system. If you're running any ML applications, it's most efficient to run models on batches of images and batch size is determined by RAM.
I can see people needing more RAM, but I think people are forgetting that these are just the first few models Apple are bring to the market. If Apple truly believe that no one needs more, they could have dropped more of the Intel models.
I imagine that it's someone that runs either either a lot of virtual machines or a lot of Docker Containers.
As a developer, I routinely need over 128GB. 32GB is cutting is short.
why aren't you using a server?
docker, JVM VMs, IDEs that take a couple gigs. You can always use it.
Eehm. What is the actual difference between the MBA M1 and the MBP 13 M1? (except the latter is thicker?) Checked the compareison and didn‘t find anything substantial...
Fan, likely clock speed. And a different design.
The MBP gets all 8 GPU cores, the MBA gets 7 (but you can upgrade the MBA to get all 8 for effectively $50 with a $200 upgrade to the storage as well). Touchbar and bigger battery. I think those are the only differences
I think also "Studio Microphone Quality" - whatever that means.
That would seem to imply whatever quality it has resembles a studio microphone. It doesn't say 'Quality Studio Microphone' after all.
It reminds me of my recent purchase of an electric shaver. The front of the box proudly proclaimed 'WAHL: The Brand Professionals Use.'
It wasn't until I got home and started opening it that I saw a little bit of fine print on the side of the box: "not to be used in a professional capacity."
It reminds me of my recent purchase of an electric shaver. The front of the box proudly proclaimed 'WAHL: The Brand Professionals Use.'
It wasn't until I got home and started opening it that I saw a little bit of fine print on the side of the box: "not to be used in a professional capacity."
13 inch Pro has brighter screen I think, and that is noticable.
On the chip itself the only difference is probably binning
Yeah, that's what I was just looking at. Up to 2 more hours of battery life, TouchBar, and a [slightly?] better microphone is the only difference I can see. Not much price difference either.
Active cooling.
Optimistically: I suspect the reason they didn't upgrade the 16" pro is because of the RAM story. In other words: no 16" w/ the M1 is an acknowledgment that configurations with 32gb (and hopefully 64gb) of RAM are not ready, and it would be unreasonable to release the highest end MBP without those options available.
Hopefully we'll see the 13" and 16" MBPs with M1+ and more RAM next Spring.
Hopefully we'll see the 13" and 16" MBPs with M1+ and more RAM next Spring.
> M1 delivers up to 3.5x faster CPU, up to 6x faster GPU, up to 15x faster machine learning (ML) capabilities, and battery life up to 2x longer than before
If they can release ARM machines that are such degree better, how terrible is Apple software on Intel? Is this due to Apple software engineers? Is there any reason to use Intel for anything?
These are serious questions. I find the multipliers very surprising.
If they can release ARM machines that are such degree better, how terrible is Apple software on Intel? Is this due to Apple software engineers? Is there any reason to use Intel for anything?
These are serious questions. I find the multipliers very surprising.
The peak of the mac mini was the 2012 Mac Mini Server where you could add an extra HDD and had easy access to the memory. That was the Apple I respected.
I'm not sure I understand why the current Mac Mini's needed to be a unibody design, since it just sits on your desk.
While I am excited for the M1 chip and the future of ARM, I'm absolutely disgusted by the price gouging in the name of memory and HDD space.
I'm not sure I understand why the current Mac Mini's needed to be a unibody design, since it just sits on your desk.
While I am excited for the M1 chip and the future of ARM, I'm absolutely disgusted by the price gouging in the name of memory and HDD space.
Any new security implications to having memory shared by everything on the chip?
Perhaps the opposite, arm64e has pointer authentication:
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/preparing...
I'm already ordering a Thinkpad.
Something I haven’t seen commented on (it could certainly be here, just buried): all these models, in their previous Intel incarnation, only had integrated GPUs. It seems to me that at least one reason for why these particular models were released today is that Apple isn’t quite ready to release models with a discrete GPU (on ARM).
Many things are unclear. There's so much confusion right now.
- Will they ship a more advanced spec for the upper line? Something like a M1x, thus replacing the need for a third-party discrete GPU?
- Will they market these devices like they do with the iPhone: same Soc for every generation but with different sizes/extras (Macbook Air, Pro, Mac Mini just like you choose between an iPhone Mini, Pro, Max)?
- How long Intel-based machines will still be around? What they will do with the Mac Pro?
- How smooth will be the transition with OS/software (I expect it will take more than the two year planned) and how much it will change with this new ARM ecosystem?
As with any new first generation device from Apple, plus this vast, unknown land, I'd stay away from these machines and wait for at the least the next iteration (maybe two).
- Will they ship a more advanced spec for the upper line? Something like a M1x, thus replacing the need for a third-party discrete GPU?
- Will they market these devices like they do with the iPhone: same Soc for every generation but with different sizes/extras (Macbook Air, Pro, Mac Mini just like you choose between an iPhone Mini, Pro, Max)?
- How long Intel-based machines will still be around? What they will do with the Mac Pro?
- How smooth will be the transition with OS/software (I expect it will take more than the two year planned) and how much it will change with this new ARM ecosystem?
As with any new first generation device from Apple, plus this vast, unknown land, I'd stay away from these machines and wait for at the least the next iteration (maybe two).
One random thing: one of the photos in the announcement has a Chinese (I think) keyboard layout https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/A...
matches https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LC/A/magic-keyboard-...
matches https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LC/A/magic-keyboard-...
It's so weird that the cheaper Air is down a single GPU core - 7 instead of 8
Maybe binning. Good chips go into Pro, chips with defects in one of the GPU cores go to Air.
Sure, but it's kind of a cheap limitation. 6/6 CPU/GPU would make more sense in terms of positioning the different models.
Up to .14x faster graphics performance for $250
Up to .14x faster graphics performance for $250
Maybe that's a fab yields play (binning, disabling cores with issues and sending them down to Air)
binning i guess?
Performance gains are probably welcome aside from the ram limitation, though I was at 16gb anyway. For those mentioning USB ports on the pro, it seems like 4 are available on the highest spec version. I'm also excited for Big Sur, let's hope it isn't a catastrophe like Catalina was.
Otherwise I'm disappointed that there wasn't a physical design iteration. I was really hoping for something. MicroLED screen, faster refresh rate, different colours of unibody, smaller bezels, more durable anti-reflective coating, more dent resistance, but nothing AFAICT.
Otherwise I'm disappointed that there wasn't a physical design iteration. I was really hoping for something. MicroLED screen, faster refresh rate, different colours of unibody, smaller bezels, more durable anti-reflective coating, more dent resistance, but nothing AFAICT.
I'll be honest, I was really hoping they'd pull a DeX-like thing out of their pocket at the end of that presentation. "Oh, those iPhones you all have? Especially the new ones with MagSafe chargers? Yeah, plug it into/set it on this lapdock/stationary dock and it's running macOS."
Yeah, I know they'd never do it. It's not their style. But they're in the best position to do that well out of any of the major phone manufacturers.
In the meantime I'll be waiting for some of these Linux phones to mature a little...
Yeah, I know they'd never do it. It's not their style. But they're in the best position to do that well out of any of the major phone manufacturers.
In the meantime I'll be waiting for some of these Linux phones to mature a little...
This is galling. I bought a new top spec Air earlier in the year to replace the one I'd owned since 2013. I hate it. The fan comes on about every 30 seconds (doing things on the new machine that were fine on the 2013 one). Literally no at Apple seems to care and I'm not the only one complaining.
It's taken then less than 6 months to refresh the entire line? What an absolute kick in the teeth - especially on the back of a machine I really dislike. Super shitty move from Apple.
It's taken then less than 6 months to refresh the entire line? What an absolute kick in the teeth - especially on the back of a machine I really dislike. Super shitty move from Apple.
I'm sorry you got a lemon but what does that have to do with how often Apple releases new machines? How often is Apple allowed to refresh their laptop lines for it not to be 'galling'?
The performance improvements here are astounding. I can’t even remember when we last saw a 2x improvement in CPU perf, much less 3-5x and with better battery life to boot!
The macmini can be a superior ‘apple tv’ replacement for a TV. It fits nicely, can support USB controllers for emulating SNES/MAME/etc. supports airdrop etc.
When I was an active software developer, I always had the biggest and beefiest machine possible, plus a MBP for when I was on the move.
Now, off in another career field, I'm really wondering why I would choose a MPB over an iPad Air or Pro. By the time you add a keyboard to the iPad, it kinda feels like the only real difference is whether you want to run Xcode. Other than that, is there really anything you can do on a MBP that you can't do on an iPad?
Now, off in another career field, I'm really wondering why I would choose a MPB over an iPad Air or Pro. By the time you add a keyboard to the iPad, it kinda feels like the only real difference is whether you want to run Xcode. Other than that, is there really anything you can do on a MBP that you can't do on an iPad?
> is there really anything you can do on a MBP that you can't do on an iPad?
If the App Store gatekeepers get their way then "run a shell".
(I've recently got my first iPad - my first iOS device in a very long time - and it's actually less locked down than I was expecting. I had no idea they had relaxed the rules on scripting on the device. But it's still way, way more locked down than a real computer)
If the App Store gatekeepers get their way then "run a shell".
(I've recently got my first iPad - my first iOS device in a very long time - and it's actually less locked down than I was expecting. I had no idea they had relaxed the rules on scripting on the device. But it's still way, way more locked down than a real computer)
The UX for multitasking is, in my opinion, still much better on a laptop that it is on the iPad.
Huh, the Macbook Pro only has the same two thunderbolt/USB ports as the Air? (One of which will be in use by a power adapter if you are plugged in, so you really only have one port).
I was imagining upgrading to the Pro to get more USB ports, but if that's not an option... I can't see why I'd ever pay for a Pro.
I like having more than one USB port so I can copy things from one external HD to another. I guess I'd need a dock for that.
I was imagining upgrading to the Pro to get more USB ports, but if that's not an option... I can't see why I'd ever pay for a Pro.
I like having more than one USB port so I can copy things from one external HD to another. I guess I'd need a dock for that.
I thought so too, but it seems like the highest end 13" does have 4
oh yeah? do you mean the 16"? Oh yeah looks like it. That's too big for me. Odd, 13" with two ports or 16" with 4.
You know what, my mistake actually, but the tone seems unnecessarily derisive. I was looking at the 13" and scrolled all the way down to see 4 thunderbolt ports, but that's on the "2.0GHz Intel Core i5 Quad-Core Processor with Intel Iris Plus Graphics", so not the M1 processor. I guess that shouldn't be too surprising that they're still selling it, but I'll return to being peeved about the regression to 2 ports.
My tone seemed derisive? Sorry, it was not intended! It is a bit confusing to me (apparently not just me!), just trying to figure out what's going on!
Very interested to see some actual benchmarks...
Just ordered a Mac Mini. It finally has the performance config I can justify. Can't wait to take this thing for spin.
I know that this transition will benefit the real apple users, managers, influencers and cool kids. Obviously I will keep and refurbish my 2013 macbook pro for Linux, will run offline Windows for design (thanks to Affinity) and have fun with Logic on some apple device/computer. Future computing will be fragmented..
I guess they will also never bring back normal USB-3.1 ports.
Guess I will have to keep my $5000 camera plugged into my Ryzen-based PC, it has 6x USB-3.1 ports. Oh and my studio microphone is also "old" usb. And my keyboard/mouse. And my phone cable. And my expensive Corsair flashdrive. And my Seagate external hdd. And my memory card reader (I have 7 memory cards for different cameras). I can go on.
I'm not going to daisy-chain stuff. I'm not going to buy a dock (just another thing on my desk and take up another power socket, and more LED's burning nonstop). I'm not going to buy dongles to convert from one spec to another.
And no, I'm not going to convert everything to wireless. I have 1gbps fibre where I live, with a Asus router/modem sitting ontop of my PC, hooked up with 1gbps Ethernet cable. The 5GHz wifi is unstable if you don't sit in clear line of sight. I have a USB-3 to Ethernet dongle for my laptops but the fastest one achieves 800mbps and chows about 10% cpu when downloading something. ~2016 MacBook air gets 600mpbs with the same dongle.
Apple could've fix their port/dongle/dock mess this time around but chose not to.
Guess I will have to keep my $5000 camera plugged into my Ryzen-based PC, it has 6x USB-3.1 ports. Oh and my studio microphone is also "old" usb. And my keyboard/mouse. And my phone cable. And my expensive Corsair flashdrive. And my Seagate external hdd. And my memory card reader (I have 7 memory cards for different cameras). I can go on.
I'm not going to daisy-chain stuff. I'm not going to buy a dock (just another thing on my desk and take up another power socket, and more LED's burning nonstop). I'm not going to buy dongles to convert from one spec to another.
And no, I'm not going to convert everything to wireless. I have 1gbps fibre where I live, with a Asus router/modem sitting ontop of my PC, hooked up with 1gbps Ethernet cable. The 5GHz wifi is unstable if you don't sit in clear line of sight. I have a USB-3 to Ethernet dongle for my laptops but the fastest one achieves 800mbps and chows about 10% cpu when downloading something. ~2016 MacBook air gets 600mpbs with the same dongle.
Apple could've fix their port/dongle/dock mess this time around but chose not to.
Adding USB-3.1 back now will only serve to confuse customers and 3rd party device/accessory manufacturers.
Is the macpro worth the cost? I want to keep 300+ browser tabs opens, 6+ chrome user sessions, and many other programs running. My PC usually gets sluggish after a day of this. I don't do graphics design or gaming, but rather need to keep a lot of tabs and sessions open on chrome and to a lesser extent on Firefox.
I think you have to upgrade your laptop often or you won't keep up with the increasing requirements of software. I have a similar flow as you do (tons of apps, tabs, Linux workspaces, code compiling, video running etc). I also get easily annoyed when I do some basic stuff and all of a sudden the computer lags behind, is stuck etc.
in the end I went with a desktop computer (if you have the space and you don't mind losing portability - I also have a Dell XPS in a pretty good shape for when I need it). It does waaay better when it comes to multitasking, never gets sluggish, much easier to upgrade, no throttiling/overheating problems, cheaper.
in the end I went with a desktop computer (if you have the space and you don't mind losing portability - I also have a Dell XPS in a pretty good shape for when I need it). It does waaay better when it comes to multitasking, never gets sluggish, much easier to upgrade, no throttiling/overheating problems, cheaper.
What do you do with 300+ browser tabs?
i like having everything accessible when I need it.
There's no new Mac Pro announced today.
I bought macbook pro 13 inch 2017 edition but I regret it forever due to its screen issue. Apple asks like 800$ repair for around 1100$ laptop atm. They placed tcon board near heatsink and congratulation if ur cpu gets heated your screen will suddenly stop working.
So please buy after checking how much it can be repaired :/
So please buy after checking how much it can be repaired :/
[deleted]
Am I the only person here disappointed that they did not announce a new MacBook? MacBook is my favorite form factor: OK for a slow typist like me, big enough screen when I have a large USB-C monitor on my desk, and I especially like the light weight and small size.
What also stood out for me is how few big names they had for companies moving to Apple Silicon. I really did not recognize most of the companies they did highlight.
I had been hoping for a web page dedicated to showing all companies on board with products coming or expected in the next year
I had been hoping for a web page dedicated to showing all companies on board with products coming or expected in the next year
The new Mac Mini is €50 cheaper than what the previous one was 2 days ago.
I'm positively impressed here.
I'm positively impressed here.
Apple has been getting trashed lately by developers for how hot and loud their macbooks get. You can tell how much focus they put on cooling in this presentation. The macbook air literally doesn't even have a fan!
Wasn't the latest Intel-based MacBook Air fanless as well?
No; I have one. (Perhaps you're thinking of the 12-inch Macbook, which was fanless, and which they stopped manufacturing a year ago.) And I go to extremes to keep the fan from spinning up: using Turbo Boost Switcher, and/or running a program that repeatedly does the equivalent of "kill -STOP" and "kill -CONT" to a process, hundreds of times per second, to force it to use less CPU.
Ah OK, thanks for the clarification. Yes, the MacBook was the fanless one. I wonder why they stopped making it?
Perhaps because they knew they were going to release a fanless 13-inch Macbook Air.
No FaceID, interesting.
I've said this in another thread and thought they might use FaceID as a "Pro" only feature like they do on the iPads but nope, they also released an updated 13" MacBook Pro without FaceID.
I've said this in another thread and thought they might use FaceID as a "Pro" only feature like they do on the iPads but nope, they also released an updated 13" MacBook Pro without FaceID.
As much as Apple touts features as "incredible innovations", I think a lot of them are just engineering solutions.
I see FaceID as the compromise of increasing screen size to fill all the real estate on the iPhone. The Macbooks have tons of room for extra sensors on the keyboard part but not a lot can be put on the screen.
I see FaceID as the compromise of increasing screen size to fill all the real estate on the iPhone. The Macbooks have tons of room for extra sensors on the keyboard part but not a lot can be put on the screen.
By the way, does anyone have info / advice on whether to stay away from the very first release of brand new hardware from a buggy point of view? Or manufacturing kinks still being worked out?
Maybe I'll have to eat my words in a few weeks but I can't say I'm super concerned. M1 seems a lot like the A14, which is a lot like the A13, which is a lot like the A12, etc...
I'm more concerned about how long it will take for most apps to have full support for both macOS Catalina and Apple Silicon. When the 2012 retina MacBooks came out, quite a few apps were awkwardly pixelated for a long, long time.
I'm more concerned about how long it will take for most apps to have full support for both macOS Catalina and Apple Silicon. When the 2012 retina MacBooks came out, quite a few apps were awkwardly pixelated for a long, long time.
When I was a kid I worked with my father building custom cars. We customized a car for the guy who owned a famous brand of liquor. He had a vanity license plate on one of his cars that said something like "3 Stars" on it and I asked him what that stood for. He said it was less expensive brand of the liquor he sold and then he went on to say "it's the same as the expensive stuff and if you tell anyone that they'll call you a liar, but take it from me, it's the same stuff". And he was right. I did tell people and those who purchased his expensive brand flat out insisted I was wrong.
Apple can charge more because they always have and people will buy it because they believe it's better.
Apple can charge more because they always have and people will buy it because they believe it's better.
From my experience, the touchpad and OS experience is decidedly better. This is a subjective judgement, but anecdotally I've heard it from many people.
Well, we're talking about hardware here, or at least I was.
I love my late `09 Mac Mini. Best Mac I've owned yet, but for the same amount we'll pay for a new one we could probably build our own Linux box with much better specs.
I love my late `09 Mac Mini. Best Mac I've owned yet, but for the same amount we'll pay for a new one we could probably build our own Linux box with much better specs.
Yes, people believe it’s better. The liquor the man in your story sold (unless I’ve read this wrong) was literally the same as the expensive stuff.
Apple’s always been in the experience game. And they’ve charged a premium for the experience, even though underneath the pieces were the same. Some people hate it and some people love it.
This is another change to the experience. I think though that we’re finally beyond (excuse the expression) “Apples to Apples” comparison though. This hardware is literally not the same stuff - unless you’re down to you talking about NAND gates.
Apple’s always been in the experience game. And they’ve charged a premium for the experience, even though underneath the pieces were the same. Some people hate it and some people love it.
This is another change to the experience. I think though that we’re finally beyond (excuse the expression) “Apples to Apples” comparison though. This hardware is literally not the same stuff - unless you’re down to you talking about NAND gates.
Maybe some people buy more expensive Apple products after dependability problems with competitor products.
(Happened to me with a brand new Sony Vaio and a Dell, for example.)
(Happened to me with a brand new Sony Vaio and a Dell, for example.)
Well, I've bought new Apple computers for over 20 years now and for the first 10 I had to replace them after a couple years because I couldn't run newer software on them but they were pretty much junk by the end of those few years.
The late `09 Mac Mini I'm still using has been a real workhorse though. I upgraded the Ram and Hard Drive about 5 years ago and it's still very capable for what I do. To be fair, the DVD drive died after just a couple years on it though and I didn't really use it much.
But I don't use Photoshop or almost any Apple software anymore (outside of the OS). I write code and I don't need much horsepower for that.
The late `09 Mac Mini I'm still using has been a real workhorse though. I upgraded the Ram and Hard Drive about 5 years ago and it's still very capable for what I do. To be fair, the DVD drive died after just a couple years on it though and I didn't really use it much.
But I don't use Photoshop or almost any Apple software anymore (outside of the OS). I write code and I don't need much horsepower for that.
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Quick question - if it's so super duper gfx 4X speed .... why still ship the new macbook pro with a radeon mobile chip?
It basically means your M1 won't get close to a radeon mobile chip...
It basically means your M1 won't get close to a radeon mobile chip...
You are likely looking at the Intel models
Can't wait for the Rossmann rants about them.
Still only 720p FaceTime cam. Too bad it's only TB on one side, and too bad it's not a 14" design.
Apart form that - excellent!
- 16GB RAM
- 1TB SSD
- 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7
- 2 Thunderbolt
- 2 USB B
- Headphone jack
- MagSafe power
- HDMI
- SD Card Reader
- Physical function keys row
MacBook design peaked in 2015.
- 1TB SSD
- 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7
- 2 Thunderbolt
- 2 USB B
- Headphone jack
- MagSafe power
- HDMI
- SD Card Reader
- Physical function keys row
MacBook design peaked in 2015.
I hope these new Macs will respect the openness we've had on the PC platform for the past 30 years and allow you to run any operating system you like without being beholden to the manufacturer (like they do on the iPhone). I'm really worried that Apple is gaining too much power over the platform and they are going to make it difficult (or near impossible) to boot other operating systems (e.g. Linux)
I was hoping for a re-introduction of the 12" Macbook, I guess we'll have to wait a little bit longer
How easy is it to replace the keyboard and fans - ie the moving parts that are most likely to break?
If the heat/cooling story is here for the Mini, that thing is exactly what I need
My expectation for the #AppleEvent was actually a MacBook Pro without the Touch Bar.
iOS and MacOS are clearly starting to converge here, this current gen of Macs are even able to run iOS apps. I wonder if we'll ever see macs with touchscreens, or if iPads will become macs before macs become iPads
This M1 chip is really interesting, but they seem to be hard limited in RAM to 16GB. That will surely limit the interest there is in the initial batch amongst the HN crowd. It makes sense maybe for the MacBook Air, but not that much for the Mac Mini or MacBook Pro 13".
Will Python, NodeJS, Java support new mbp on Day 1?
Is this the first time they call their laptops "notebooks"?
I read somewhere about 15 years ago that the term was introduced when laptops would get so hot that the legal departments at laptop vendors started to worry about their liability if they kept calling them laptops and they got sued by someone whose lap got burned.
Now that Apple's laptops run much cooler, my guess is that they continue to say "notebook" because Apple owns an important trademark that ends in "Book".
Now that Apple's laptops run much cooler, my guess is that they continue to say "notebook" because Apple owns an important trademark that ends in "Book".
This is a bugbear of mine. I've never met a real human being who uses that term. I don't even know if people would understand me if I started using it in normal conversation.
They are laptops outside of industry marketing material. Why can't they just admit they lost this rebranding battle?
They are laptops outside of industry marketing material. Why can't they just admit they lost this rebranding battle?
Apple has called them notebooks for many years, I believe this is how they referred to them on the box too.
The term was used frequently in the Jobs keynotes.
In addition, the original brandname was PowerBook.
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disappointed with the design refresh or lack thereof. also disappointed with the subpar camera, 8gb ram as base spec. so thanks but i will pass
No multiple displays. Less RAM than an Intel. Lame.
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Mac Mini? sigh
edit: No wait... here comes the pro!
edit: No wait... here comes the pro!
It seems that I will love that hardware and I want to put Linux in it.
Is this even possible?
Will they have a locked loader?
Is this even possible?
Will they have a locked loader?
No 32GB RAM on the 13”
Touchscreen, right?
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No touchscreen?
No, because that would make it an iPad. While I don’t see the need for a touchscreen on a laptop, I think Apple fear that it would hurt iPad sales.
An iPad with a good keyboard and an operating system that allows the user to do more things would be nice. Like running Linux for development, having a web browser that is not Safari inside, having to visual studio code...
Sure, but that’s not what the iPad is for in Apple mind.
That PC ending was cringe.
Silly Apple.
Silly Apple.
Arm based Chromebook with a worse kernel, lack of 32gb is a no go. Trying to squeeze some sales right into the end of the year seems like.
Apple would love to kill laptops because consumers expect them to be general purpose computers. That's not really apple's business model, though.
My first PC which had 8GB of RAM was built in ~2010 if I remember correctly. My current machine has 32GB. In all honesty, 32GB is not even much, considering my motherboard can take 128GB (in the old days, if your motherboard could take max 8GB RAM, people would fill all the slots to capacity). Also, I have a Lenovo machine that I paid $200 for that has 8GB RAM.
WHY any power user would buy a MacBook is beyond me. They've become devices that only my mother would use, not to get work done.
Apple should've made the baseline 32GB with 128GB as max spec. It would've forced the whole industry to give us more RAM. So for the next two years RAM will still be stagnant, all other manufacturers that copies Apple will indeed keep shipping 8GB without blinking.