Ask HN: How to negotiate salary with a remote distributed company?
39 comments
I run a US-based startup with a relatively small budget and hire developers in "low-cost" countries. I expect to pay $70k-$100k for a regular competent developer and more for a solid self-motivated developer. If the company is legitimate, they can afford $90k++. Try to speak directly with whoever would be your manager - if you can demonstrate to them that you're a) good b) excited to work on their problems, and c) require zero babysitting (as a senior person), they'll override whatever silly numbers HR put on the form.
$45k is beyond silly; it's disrespectful for senior talent, regardless of where they live. If the manager holds the same line as HR, consider yourself lucky as that company is not where you'd want to work.
$45k is beyond silly; it's disrespectful for senior talent, regardless of where they live. If the manager holds the same line as HR, consider yourself lucky as that company is not where you'd want to work.
Take the higher than your current salary offer, they’ve already demonstrated how they value work and those who perform it (by geography).
Super interesting work is overrated compared to maximizing comp. Money buys opportunities and freedom. Optimize for comp and quality of life. Lots of inspiration in that regard in this recent Ask HN thread [1].
(i do the same and would not give advice I don’t practice myself)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29614095
Super interesting work is overrated compared to maximizing comp. Money buys opportunities and freedom. Optimize for comp and quality of life. Lots of inspiration in that regard in this recent Ask HN thread [1].
(i do the same and would not give advice I don’t practice myself)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29614095
> Super interesting work is overrated compared to maximizing comp. Money buys opportunities and freedom. Optimize for comp and quality of life.
To a degree. In this particular case the numbers are so far apart that I wouldn't accept the low offer.
But fun and exciting work is part of my quality of life. If I were deciding between two offers in the same numeric "neighborhood" I'd take the one that was more interesting even if it were the lower of the two. A mind-sucking slog purely for money would not be desirable to me.
To a degree. In this particular case the numbers are so far apart that I wouldn't accept the low offer.
But fun and exciting work is part of my quality of life. If I were deciding between two offers in the same numeric "neighborhood" I'd take the one that was more interesting even if it were the lower of the two. A mind-sucking slog purely for money would not be desirable to me.
I'm definitely not going to take this offer below my current salary. No way. I might take it if there is a small difference with the other offer I have but I doubt they stretch so much.
Tell them what you want, tell them you have another offer, if they say no - Walk away. It really is pretty simple.
I agree with this. Either it’s true that they can’t increase the offered salary, or it’s not. The only way to find out is to be willing to walk away.
Negotiating in this situation is very easy:
- Make what you want claer. "I really like the sound of your company and your team. The only thing that is stopping me is that the offer is far lower than I would like. I was hoping for $x/year in total compensation". If you have base, bonus, stock expectations mention that
- Make it clear you are able to negotiate if you are ("I can go down to $y/year if I have a clear growth path to $x/year") and that you are not going to negotiate if not ("That is the minimum I am willing to accept")
- Be prepared to walk politely. "Thank you for the interview. I enjoyed meeting the team. Ultimately, I talked to many good teams and had to choose one." You can optionally mention which one you're going to go with and mention that you are open to talking in a couple of years.
Remember that this is an iterated game. If you failed to negotiate this time, you may succeed a different time. A lot of people on the Internet have poor social skills and will advise you to do certain things. Here are some common pitfalls that you can fall into:
- People will tell you to be vindictive. "Actually, this is so low it's disrespectful. Never talk to me again"
- People will tell you to sell yourself. "I have done X, Y, and Z. I deserve $x". That part is over. It won't matter here.
- People will you to rub it in their face. "Actually, I got a better offer from A so now you know what I'm worth".
Comp negotiations are very easy and directness will benefit you. A pre-existing offer raises your BATNA. You're in good shape. Remember that you always have to be prepared to choose the BATNA or it is not a BATNA.
- Make what you want claer. "I really like the sound of your company and your team. The only thing that is stopping me is that the offer is far lower than I would like. I was hoping for $x/year in total compensation". If you have base, bonus, stock expectations mention that
- Make it clear you are able to negotiate if you are ("I can go down to $y/year if I have a clear growth path to $x/year") and that you are not going to negotiate if not ("That is the minimum I am willing to accept")
- Be prepared to walk politely. "Thank you for the interview. I enjoyed meeting the team. Ultimately, I talked to many good teams and had to choose one." You can optionally mention which one you're going to go with and mention that you are open to talking in a couple of years.
Remember that this is an iterated game. If you failed to negotiate this time, you may succeed a different time. A lot of people on the Internet have poor social skills and will advise you to do certain things. Here are some common pitfalls that you can fall into:
- People will tell you to be vindictive. "Actually, this is so low it's disrespectful. Never talk to me again"
- People will tell you to sell yourself. "I have done X, Y, and Z. I deserve $x". That part is over. It won't matter here.
- People will you to rub it in their face. "Actually, I got a better offer from A so now you know what I'm worth".
Comp negotiations are very easy and directness will benefit you. A pre-existing offer raises your BATNA. You're in good shape. Remember that you always have to be prepared to choose the BATNA or it is not a BATNA.
Just say - "I'm sorry, but it doesn't make sense for me to take a 50% pay cut to change a job. If anything, changing job comes with many risks, and I would expect a pay increase to compensate for that". If they really want you, they'll budge. If they don't (they believe you're easily replaceable with someone else in the hiring pipeline), there's nothing you can say to change their mind. (This is under assumption that you've sold yourself well during the interview and they are already aware of the full value you can bring to them.)
I'm also from a low-cost country, and recently got a new remote job paying upwards of $150k, using exactly the technique I described above. They just didn't have alternatives, and knew that similar people to me probably wouldn't work for much less anyway.
I'm also from a low-cost country, and recently got a new remote job paying upwards of $150k, using exactly the technique I described above. They just didn't have alternatives, and knew that similar people to me probably wouldn't work for much less anyway.
Don't waste anymore of your time. Smart companies pay for quality talent regardless of location. Could be they deliberately low balled just to get you to expose your number - which tells you right there that they just view you as a number. Lots of employers in the world, if you believe in yourself you'll find one that respects your talent.
I'm still super curious. It's a well known company that is doing super well. I had the interview with some really smart people with amazing resumes. The low ball explanation makes sense. Maybe they were just testing me. I live in Argentina where 45k would be considered an ok salary. Lot of people work for less than that. But if you know your value and work with international companies you can get much more than that.
I would tend to agree with the advice given so far that you should bail on the well-known company, but you also need to tell them directly why it is that you are no longer interested in their offer. It is possible, but unlikely, that they will adjust the offer, but they need to know that they made a mistake so that they can correct in the future.
Just say no. Low ballers are scum and cannot be tolerated.
I agree with the others: Just tell them once that you already have a higher offer that they need to meet - and if they don't bug then stop wasting your time and walk away.
Consider that your problem will also not just be the initial offer. If you are considered above market rate in the company you will never get any raise, and just be stuck with what you originally agreed on.
Consider that your problem will also not just be the initial offer. If you are considered above market rate in the company you will never get any raise, and just be stuck with what you originally agreed on.
“I’d love to work for you because the work is super interesting, and the team sounds great. However, I’m having difficulty finding my way to accepting your offer because doing so would cause significant hardship from taking such a drastic pay cut. I currently have another offer from a company for $99k, but I feel that I could offer greater impact at your organization. Is there anything we could do to make this decision easier for me?”
The collaborative approach is usually the best one to negotiation. People want to help and solve problems, and that includes the recruiter. This hits all the points you made while giving them a solution to the “problem” you pose on a silver platter.
The collaborative approach is usually the best one to negotiation. People want to help and solve problems, and that includes the recruiter. This hits all the points you made while giving them a solution to the “problem” you pose on a silver platter.
Honestly, it was a surprise to me when the recruiter told me the number in the meeting. My first thought was "this is a joke", so it was a little hard being calm.
I think they saw an average of salaries in Glassdoor. The problem is that in Argentina we have 60% inflation annually so information there gets old pretty quickly. Salaries grow 2x every 2 or 3 years. Maybe explaining that helps. I would like to know where they got their estimation for the salary.
I think they saw an average of salaries in Glassdoor. The problem is that in Argentina we have 60% inflation annually so information there gets old pretty quickly. Salaries grow 2x every 2 or 3 years. Maybe explaining that helps. I would like to know where they got their estimation for the salary.
See if you can string along the hiring manager. It’s so hard to hire right now they may be pretty desperate. Get him or her all worked up and excited. Then when it becomes obvious that the budget is the only thing standing between him/her getting some sorely needed help or not, he or she will be very sympathetic and probably spend some time pleading on your behalf with the powers that be.
Of course some companies are just never going to “get it” and they’ll all end up suffering as a result.
Of course some companies are just never going to “get it” and they’ll all end up suffering as a result.
That's a great strategy. I'm having the negotiation with the recruiter and I've just talked with the hiring manager for the behavioral interview, it went really well. I hope he might want me enough in the team to do something about.
I don't think I'd pursue that approach. The figure they named signalled their expectations. I think it's best to just say you're too far apart and that you're going to move on, and do so. If they want to come back with another offer, they can, but their initial number was a non-starter.
Have to agree with this. It’s not just this year’s comp to worry about. If they think your best alternative competes against $45K, what’s the prospect for your future raises? And stock grants?
This is now complex as there's two parties.
Maybe the company would pay you more but the recruiter either:
- told them you're cheap, mistakenly or not
- wants to get you in cheap so they get follow on work
- doesn't know you expect a lot more
- is getting a bonus if they find suitable cheaper candidates
- doesn't yet know what you're telling us and so hasn't passed on the feedback on the poor offer.
- would be happy to fight for higher pay as they're paid a % of your annual rate.
Maybe the company would pay you more but the recruiter either:
- told them you're cheap, mistakenly or not
- wants to get you in cheap so they get follow on work
- doesn't know you expect a lot more
- is getting a bonus if they find suitable cheaper candidates
- doesn't yet know what you're telling us and so hasn't passed on the feedback on the poor offer.
- would be happy to fight for higher pay as they're paid a % of your annual rate.
What kind of "staff engineer" is only making 90k annually? (genuinely curious where this would happen)
One that live in Brazil would be around that.
I do, I am mid level, but I work for a company in the US hiring globally remote. So I earn more than that because I speak English and take the time to find companies that are paying US salaries. But I know a lot of developers that are much better and experienced than me that earn less than that.
I do, I am mid level, but I work for a company in the US hiring globally remote. So I earn more than that because I speak English and take the time to find companies that are paying US salaries. But I know a lot of developers that are much better and experienced than me that earn less than that.
Would you mind sharing which ones I could apply?
Look for companies that hire globally remote but are not explicitly targeting “low-cost” countries with their job ads (those that do are trying to make the salary arbitrage work on their benefit, you are trying to make it work on your benefit).
Look for American companies. They pay much better than companies even from other rich countries like UK and Germany.
Skip agencies and software shops in general because their core product is to arbitrage developer salaries. Look for startups, ideally funded ones.
Look for smaller companies because they are more likely to hire people from outside the US in a contractor agreement. 100% of the companies with more than, say, 500 employees that I approached or approached me hire remote in the US only.
Check if they hire globally remote in the first email. A lot of companies are not explicit about it in the job description but their remote is “remote in the US only” (remember that you are looking at companies advertising their jobs to Americans).
I had good luck applying to jobs from HN’s “Who is hiring?” thread. You might find something on Angellist and at YCombinator’s “Work at a startup”, but I learned that in those places I am less likely to even get a response from my application. Worth a try though.
My suggestion would be to wait next Who is hiring thread and be very diligent about reading all posts and applying quickly to the jobs that are a fit for you.
Look for American companies. They pay much better than companies even from other rich countries like UK and Germany.
Skip agencies and software shops in general because their core product is to arbitrage developer salaries. Look for startups, ideally funded ones.
Look for smaller companies because they are more likely to hire people from outside the US in a contractor agreement. 100% of the companies with more than, say, 500 employees that I approached or approached me hire remote in the US only.
Check if they hire globally remote in the first email. A lot of companies are not explicit about it in the job description but their remote is “remote in the US only” (remember that you are looking at companies advertising their jobs to Americans).
I had good luck applying to jobs from HN’s “Who is hiring?” thread. You might find something on Angellist and at YCombinator’s “Work at a startup”, but I learned that in those places I am less likely to even get a response from my application. Worth a try though.
My suggestion would be to wait next Who is hiring thread and be very diligent about reading all posts and applying quickly to the jobs that are a fit for you.
Most of the interesting positions I find hire only in the US but it's because they are for bigger companies (more than 500 employees). I will have to target smaller ones.
More than 90% of those in europe. Something like 80k EUR will not be unusal for people with 10 years of experience.
I live in Argentina. Making 90k is a lot, not many companies pay more. I'm probably the best paid among my friends in software engineering. Even though some things are cheap here, close to 60% go to taxes. Don't make me think much about that :(
I'm from Argentina too and I feel your pain, Its really hard to just not be seen as a cheap engineer, I hope you get what you deserve!
> to work there because the work is super interesting and would look very well in my resume.
If a prospective company do due diligence they will likely find out you worked below market rate and use that to lowball you. You would have to give a good justification why you are worth paying 2x more.
If a prospective company do due diligence they will likely find out you worked below market rate and use that to lowball you. You would have to give a good justification why you are worth paying 2x more.
Sounds like your market value is ~100k, because that is your top offer. If you show them your top offer and they won't match it, well nothing else will convince them either. Personally I'd ask them to match and be willing to walk away and accept the higher offer.
If you were already making double of 45K which I assume is 90K, wouldn't you have discussed that upfront with the recruiter first before doing the interviews ? That is a huge gap for you to try and address AFTER the initial interviews.
Oh but every negoatiation article that shows up on HN says you should never say a number first.
I got tired of wasting multiple personal days off of work to interview and then receive a stupidly lowball offer in return.
So I name my price up front now. Doesn't have to be what I'm currently making - it's what number will make me jump. It's a binary decision at that point for both of us.
I got tired of wasting multiple personal days off of work to interview and then receive a stupidly lowball offer in return.
So I name my price up front now. Doesn't have to be what I'm currently making - it's what number will make me jump. It's a binary decision at that point for both of us.
I agree, I've been giving an initial ballpark number ahead of time just to save myself time. Maybe some initial dance to also find get their range. Some companies will share that and independent recruiters even more likely.
One can always qualify the initially named number with some words assuming a reasonable similarity in work environment, responsibilities, benefits, vacation, etc. Adjustments after can always be discussed in a that kind of context.
But I also try to keep a rough concept of what's paying in my area. It seems unlikely I'm going to dramatically undercut myself, at it seems low odds that the practice might cut off some magic high pay
One can always qualify the initially named number with some words assuming a reasonable similarity in work environment, responsibilities, benefits, vacation, etc. Adjustments after can always be discussed in a that kind of context.
But I also try to keep a rough concept of what's paying in my area. It seems unlikely I'm going to dramatically undercut myself, at it seems low odds that the practice might cut off some magic high pay
There is a concept in negotiations known as “anchoring”. It can actually be beneficial to put forth the first number, although at a extreme advantage to yourself (high or low).
By doing that, you set an anchor at that offer and the other party will see you as being compromising/them getting a break with anything you concede from that point.
It’s a hard ball negotiating tactic and deliberately doing it is ethically questionable. However, people offering advice to the contrary is a bit misguided in my opinion and made up of a bunch of people convinced they got a great deal when the other party conceded their position :-).
By doing that, you set an anchor at that offer and the other party will see you as being compromising/them getting a break with anything you concede from that point.
It’s a hard ball negotiating tactic and deliberately doing it is ethically questionable. However, people offering advice to the contrary is a bit misguided in my opinion and made up of a bunch of people convinced they got a great deal when the other party conceded their position :-).
Being a distributed company I did some research and found what their salaries are. They tend to pay around 120k~160k. I guess they are trying to offer me much less because of where I live. I never thought they would made such a low offer. According to them their offers are localized.
If that's their compensation philosophy then it seems unlikely they will come up. I recommend talking about comp early in the interview process (ideally the first call) to avoid these scenarios.
A question for OP, is this 45k would be your net salary or tax cut will be applied to it later?
sounds like a joke so maybe treat it as such
Just tell them the truth - your wife decided to prostitute herself to make up the difference and now you can take their generous offer of 60% lower than market rate!
/S
You will not work on interesting things, you will be shit on from every angle at that job, I guarantee. Consider a bullet dodged.
If you insist on making bad decisions in life.... I would send them a thank you for the generous offer. You will compare with your current comp (screenshot bank deposit), and other offers (letter attached with company name whited out), and with additional offers I expect later in the week. I will be in contact no later than Friday if this works out to be the best opportunity. Thank you for you and your teams time, You.
Be sure to CC any hiring managers if you can (check interview invites). If they actually want you for a valued position, they will apologize and correct the offer. If they just want someone to pee on, they won't.
/S
You will not work on interesting things, you will be shit on from every angle at that job, I guarantee. Consider a bullet dodged.
If you insist on making bad decisions in life.... I would send them a thank you for the generous offer. You will compare with your current comp (screenshot bank deposit), and other offers (letter attached with company name whited out), and with additional offers I expect later in the week. I will be in contact no later than Friday if this works out to be the best opportunity. Thank you for you and your teams time, You.
Be sure to CC any hiring managers if you can (check interview invites). If they actually want you for a valued position, they will apologize and correct the offer. If they just want someone to pee on, they won't.
The position is for senior IC and I would love to work there because the work is super interesting and would look very well in my resume. However, the company says they can't pay more in my country even though there's no single employee here and they pay higher salaries in other places. What is the best strategy to convince them to pay what I think I'm worth?