Apple blocks Pragmatic Programmers' release of iPhone book for developers(pragprog.com)
pragprog.com
Apple blocks Pragmatic Programmers' release of iPhone book for developers
http://www.pragprog.com/news/ubuntu-kung-fu-shippingpodcast-iphone-news
77 comments
Your subtle distinction comes down to: it's not that they blocked it, it's that they haven't stopped blocking it.
I don't see a reason to treat that significantly differently.
I don't see a reason to treat that significantly differently.
There's no reason to treat them differently, I agree.
The question I have is why we're still talking about old news? I'm searching this story in vain for some aditional bit of information that is actionable in any way.
The question I have is why we're still talking about old news? I'm searching this story in vain for some aditional bit of information that is actionable in any way.
An NDA being in place is a bit of an abstract concept for people and can seem relatively harmless until you hear of concrete examples of how that has impacted participants.
The reason this example is worthwhile is to aid the decision making process of those who are considering contributing to this platform. People need to fully understand the risks to invested time.
The reason this example is worthwhile is to aid the decision making process of those who are considering contributing to this platform. People need to fully understand the risks to invested time.
[deleted]
Woah don't post the truth, this is apparently all about posting as many stories as possible that could be misinterpreted to show that Apple is evil.
Apple builds a plantation. Sharecroppers move in, deciding of their own free will that life working for "Massa" is good. A sign at the front gate says, "The first rule of the Apple Plantation is that Sharecroppers do not talk about the Apple Plantation."
So the sign is still up and the Pragamatic Programmers are waiting untilt he sign comes down. Interesting, but not a single bit of new information. Must be a slow news day for this to get so many votes.
It would be news if the sign came down, or if Apple blessed the Pragmatic Programmers and said, "the sign doesn't apply to you."
So the sign is still up and the Pragamatic Programmers are waiting untilt he sign comes down. Interesting, but not a single bit of new information. Must be a slow news day for this to get so many votes.
It would be news if the sign came down, or if Apple blessed the Pragmatic Programmers and said, "the sign doesn't apply to you."
Hi Ragnwald didn't you plan on taking a break :)
I know, I'm a fan. I just noticed that all your comments on this post made it look like you where starting to blog again, but in HN comment section :-)
As soon as I saw this headline I thought that the comments would be instantly split into 3 views.
- The Apple Fanboys who say it isn't such a big deal
- The haters looking for any excuse to heap ire upon Apple
- The rest of us who are still confused as to why Apple hasn't released the NDA and the fallout that is happening as a result of it.
Glad to see this submission delivers as originally thought.
- The Apple Fanboys who say it isn't such a big deal
- The haters looking for any excuse to heap ire upon Apple
- The rest of us who are still confused as to why Apple hasn't released the NDA and the fallout that is happening as a result of it.
Glad to see this submission delivers as originally thought.
I'm #3, but my guess is that nobody @ Apple with a clue's responsible for the app dev program. The NDA & the app store absurdity are unusually dumb for apple. Whomever (is anyone?) is at top-level control of all this is seriously screwing up the potential for the next big platform.
But they probably think it's irrelevant b/c the iPhone sales are still doing fine.
But they probably think it's irrelevant b/c the iPhone sales are still doing fine.
Key phrase: "which affects all publishers regarding this material". It's not just pragprog. There isn't any real news here other than they're taking it off their docket.
Same situation as before with their last blog post about the [redacted] SDK NDA.
Same situation as before with their last blog post about the [redacted] SDK NDA.
Has the iphone nda actually been enforced yet or even threatened to be enforced by apple?
Or is this an issue like the chrome license that says goog owns everything you type, but obviously they aren't going around taking my words?
Or is this an issue like the chrome license that says goog owns everything you type, but obviously they aren't going around taking my words?
Google Chrome license was updated several weeks ago. See e.g. http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/update-to-google-chro...
Extract:
Extract:
11. Content license from you
11.1 You retain copyright and any other rights you already
hold in Content which you submit, post or display on or
through, the Services.The difference is that Google changed their license after people complained.
Presumably developers aren't pushing the boundaries of the NDA because they fear being banned for life, so there's nothing for Apple to enforce.
Presumably developers aren't pushing the boundaries of the NDA because they fear being banned for life, so there's nothing for Apple to enforce.
Exactly. Podcaster's adhoc distribution being blocked is a fantastic example. Netshare being banned from the app store is another. At this moment, unless you are a well known developer bitching a ton about this that Apple can't lash out at you without completely and utterly (and possibly irreversibly) screwing themselves over in the eyes of the Mac/iPhone dev community (i.e. Wil Shipley, Craig Hockenberry), you don't want to because this insanity is preferable to nothing at all because some cretin at Apple was like "woah, this person went overboard with the criticism..blacklisted".
Netshare being banned from the app store is another.
If you were lucky enough to buy Netshare when it was for sale - it still works (yay!).
I wonder exactly what this means for future support for products such as Netshare.
My guess is adhoc'ed distributions like Podcaster will be a pain in the but to provide updates for - but it'll be possible. Especially with the appropriate make / build script. I think those of us who own now banned applications may be in trouble in the future.
If you were lucky enough to buy Netshare when it was for sale - it still works (yay!).
I wonder exactly what this means for future support for products such as Netshare.
My guess is adhoc'ed distributions like Podcaster will be a pain in the but to provide updates for - but it'll be possible. Especially with the appropriate make / build script. I think those of us who own now banned applications may be in trouble in the future.
Well yes. You can also pirate it and install on jailbroken phones (one of the only reasons I do so, since I never was able to purchase it).
Podcaster used a loophole in the adhoc distribution method that allowed for getting around the 100 device limit. Apple is now preventing that developer from doing so. I think Apple would probably go as far as to monitor who is using the adhoc distribution method to bypass the app store (since at the moment they'd get lots of publicity for doing so, as this is typically only for limited beta testing and the like) to disable their account in general. I can't see how Podcaster will be able to update anymore...
I know lots of people have been bringing up Cydia as a viable alternative, but it's not a storefront and Cydia will not last if the App Store becomes a failure as a result. But it may be one available and open solution for banned applications.
Podcaster used a loophole in the adhoc distribution method that allowed for getting around the 100 device limit. Apple is now preventing that developer from doing so. I think Apple would probably go as far as to monitor who is using the adhoc distribution method to bypass the app store (since at the moment they'd get lots of publicity for doing so, as this is typically only for limited beta testing and the like) to disable their account in general. I can't see how Podcaster will be able to update anymore...
I know lots of people have been bringing up Cydia as a viable alternative, but it's not a storefront and Cydia will not last if the App Store becomes a failure as a result. But it may be one available and open solution for banned applications.
I've been using Macs my whole computing life, and I thought of them as Good until the first iPod worked with Windows. "But that's just business," you say, but in fact that represented a huge shift for Apple, and I recognized it immediately: Taking care of Mac customers was no longer Apple's chief concern, nor was creating great computers. Profit was the new obsession at company built by obsessions.
I watched 2002's July Keynote (MacWorld) from my local, brand-spankin'-new Apple store, and only a handful of us [all Mac geeks in attendance] were excited about the iPod. We came to see about OSX 10.1, and whatever cool software Apple might be brewing up, and this threw us for a loop.
Then next-gen iPods were available for Windows. Then I couldn't use FireWire with new iPods, even to charge them! And things have really deteriorated for us old-school MacAddicts since then. For one, MacAddict became MacLife (lame). Jobs killed off the "Sad Mac" and took all of the color and life out of the company. OSX 10.0-3 were great, 10.4 was OK, and Leopard is a goddamn trainwreck, relatively speaking.
From that point on, it was all about the Benjamins in Cupertino. I was disgusted that Apple would so quickly switch to Intel processors after years of persuading us (proving, in my opinion) that PowerPC was the superior architecture. Having followed Apple for quite some time, I predicted back then that Apple would eventually just sell software, iPods, and other gizmos: Moving away from PowerPC would be the death-knell for Mac-exclusive software (specifically catering to Mac users), be it at the hands of Apple or Psystar. I could care less.
I watched 2002's July Keynote (MacWorld) from my local, brand-spankin'-new Apple store, and only a handful of us [all Mac geeks in attendance] were excited about the iPod. We came to see about OSX 10.1, and whatever cool software Apple might be brewing up, and this threw us for a loop.
Then next-gen iPods were available for Windows. Then I couldn't use FireWire with new iPods, even to charge them! And things have really deteriorated for us old-school MacAddicts since then. For one, MacAddict became MacLife (lame). Jobs killed off the "Sad Mac" and took all of the color and life out of the company. OSX 10.0-3 were great, 10.4 was OK, and Leopard is a goddamn trainwreck, relatively speaking.
From that point on, it was all about the Benjamins in Cupertino. I was disgusted that Apple would so quickly switch to Intel processors after years of persuading us (proving, in my opinion) that PowerPC was the superior architecture. Having followed Apple for quite some time, I predicted back then that Apple would eventually just sell software, iPods, and other gizmos: Moving away from PowerPC would be the death-knell for Mac-exclusive software (specifically catering to Mac users), be it at the hands of Apple or Psystar. I could care less.
I don't get how this helps Apple. They don't want Android copying their API or something? Guess it doesn't matter as long as the iPhone remains super popular.
And man, it sucks to spend all that time writing a book, find a happy publisher, and then not be able to release it cause of this.
And man, it sucks to spend all that time writing a book, find a happy publisher, and then not be able to release it cause of this.
it sucks to spend all that time writing a book, find a happy publisher, and then not be able to release it cause of this
Seriously? You get some technology, sign an NDA saying you an't publish a book, write a book any ways, and then it sucks that nothing has changed? What exactly sucks other than the business plan of investing time and energy in the hope that someone else changes their mind about an agreement you signed?
Seriously? You get some technology, sign an NDA saying you an't publish a book, write a book any ways, and then it sucks that nothing has changed? What exactly sucks other than the business plan of investing time and energy in the hope that someone else changes their mind about an agreement you signed?
The author did take a risk here, but the risk looked to be minimal upfront. It is amazing to that Apple continues to take this stance with their NDA.
Any artificial barrier that cuts down on developer freedom and productivity will keep developers away from a platform.
Yes, the author made the assumption that Apple understood that a level of openness is required take a platform's popularity to the next level.
Any artificial barrier that cuts down on developer freedom and productivity will keep developers away from a platform.
Yes, the author made the assumption that Apple understood that a level of openness is required take a platform's popularity to the next level.
Any artificial barrier that cuts down on developer freedom and productivity will keep developers away from a platform.
Yes, the author made the assumption that Apple understood that a level of openness is required take a platform's popularity to the next level.
This is a point I see over and over again. People who are not Apple managers telling Apple what Apple ought to do to run their business successfully.
I appreciate you are being sincere, but as a long-time Apple watcher, I also recall people saying much the same thing about clones, about running Windows, about sticking with OS9, about supporting Java on iPhone, about being bought by Sun, and a great number of other things that Apple chose not to do, or chose to do later, or chose to do and undo and not redo.
You may be right that in some alternate universe Apple would be more successful if you called the shots instead of Steve Jobs.
But if we can return to the point of the post, it is that Steve Jobs is the CEO, Apple is doing what it does rather than what you or I want it to do, and it is foolish to make bets that Apple will reverse one of their positions just because you or I think they ought to do so.
This is a point I see over and over again. People who are not Apple managers telling Apple what Apple ought to do to run their business successfully.
I appreciate you are being sincere, but as a long-time Apple watcher, I also recall people saying much the same thing about clones, about running Windows, about sticking with OS9, about supporting Java on iPhone, about being bought by Sun, and a great number of other things that Apple chose not to do, or chose to do later, or chose to do and undo and not redo.
You may be right that in some alternate universe Apple would be more successful if you called the shots instead of Steve Jobs.
But if we can return to the point of the post, it is that Steve Jobs is the CEO, Apple is doing what it does rather than what you or I want it to do, and it is foolish to make bets that Apple will reverse one of their positions just because you or I think they ought to do so.
I did not claim that Apple would be more successful if I called the shots instead of Steve Jobs. I think that not one in a million could have staged such a successful resurgence as Steve Jobs has.
However, I believe Apple is harming their platform in this matter. It is possible that I am wrong and Apple will be better off with this decision.
In any case, some developers and authors are being due to their assumption that the platform would be more open. This will lead to many developers deciding to spend their work effort developing for other platforms.
However, I believe Apple is harming their platform in this matter. It is possible that I am wrong and Apple will be better off with this decision.
In any case, some developers and authors are being due to their assumption that the platform would be more open. This will lead to many developers deciding to spend their work effort developing for other platforms.
Well, my personal opinion's that Apple are harming their platform in this matter as well. I know for a fact that many developers are shunning the platform because of actions like this. As a matter of fact, I shun developing directly for the platform because of similar actions in the past, like giving iTunes away and driving all the payware music players out of business. Or building the dashboard and driving Konfabulator over to Windows.
However, I stand by my assertion that given Apple's history and given the fact that there was an NDA in place when the book project was begun, there is no sympathy to give out here, nor is there any surprising "Who would have thought Apple would do this?" news.
In fact, nothing has changed since the NDA was first revealed. I say again, it will be newsworthy when the restrictions are lifted. Until then, it is like telling the world that Steve Jobs is tyrannical and abusive to his employees.
However, I stand by my assertion that given Apple's history and given the fact that there was an NDA in place when the book project was begun, there is no sympathy to give out here, nor is there any surprising "Who would have thought Apple would do this?" news.
In fact, nothing has changed since the NDA was first revealed. I say again, it will be newsworthy when the restrictions are lifted. Until then, it is like telling the world that Steve Jobs is tyrannical and abusive to his employees.
The NDA was in place when they started writing it. I don't know why they assumed the NDA would be lifted with the release of the iPhone 2.0. It would have been great if it were lifted, but it wasn't. They knew the risk they were running.
Definitely a cautionary tale about getting involved with Apple technologies.
Ridiculous
Apple's approach to this whole development platform is really starting to bother me. I won't be investing in it until I can learn more about it from some of the most trusted authors in the biz.
Is it just me, or is it sounding like Apple is coming out with their own line of iPhone manuals or something...?
fuckingnda.com
This is outrageous.
That's it, I am going to refrain from purchasing any and all Apple products from here on, am going to encourage others to do the same, and will also refrain from recommending their products to anyone.
That's it, I am going to refrain from purchasing any and all Apple products from here on, am going to encourage others to do the same, and will also refrain from recommending their products to anyone.
Sometimes it feels lonely being an open source advocate, but reading this, there was a smirk on my face, and my first thought was "Told them so". I love it when people suffer for trusting big companies, its like their own fault, big co's are evil by definition, you should know better than to trust them. You con use their products, but trusting them, or even worse, to love them? In the expression "common sense", people tend to hear only the "common" part, the "sense" part is more important!
I wouldn't go as far as what you're saying, but having only been an Apple user for 4 years (and a wannabe iPhone developer for 6 months), this was an eye-opening experience to me. I assumed that Microsoft was "evil" and Apple was "good". But it's far more complex than that. If this is how Apple treats developers, they deserve to lose them.
idiot
I assume that you couldn't find anything wrong with my post, so you attacked my personality instead.Your point is valid thou, surrounded by all the smart people in HN i feel kind of dumb. But my mental abilities are off topic.
I was planning on buying an iPod next month with a pay raise, but after all of this stuff from Apple, I'm really starting to lose my admiration for the company. I miss when Apple was fringe.
I really dig my Creative players, FWIW.
Relax! People are just regurgitating the same stuff over and over again. And it is easy to get worked up by reading (intentional and unintentional) inflammatory remarks. If you like the product and think it makes sense for you, buy it.
It has nothing to do with people rehashing the same details over and over. It's has everything to do with Apple's actions with the things people are talking about. I don't like their tactics, and I don't like Apple putting their foot in developer's mouths by saying "we're going to make the decision on whether or not someone gets confused by our application versus yours" and then trying to silence anyone who says "I disagree".
The confusing part for me, is "What bit was unexpected?"
If you develop for a controlled platform which has an approval process, you have risks. End of story. You don't call any shots, the owner of the platform - Apple - does.
As an Apple consumer, I just don't care, and I'm sure the vast majority are the same. When Apple starts degrading the users experience, people will care.
It certainly is getting very boring to read. Essentially 2 stories have been posted umpteen times now.
1). Apple uses NDAs.
2). Apple rejects some apps from the store.
If you develop for a controlled platform which has an approval process, you have risks. End of story. You don't call any shots, the owner of the platform - Apple - does.
As an Apple consumer, I just don't care, and I'm sure the vast majority are the same. When Apple starts degrading the users experience, people will care.
It certainly is getting very boring to read. Essentially 2 stories have been posted umpteen times now.
1). Apple uses NDAs.
2). Apple rejects some apps from the store.
Usually, when a company makes a consumer device, they either market it as an "experience" or as a "platform".
When a company is trying to sell a device as an "experience", it finds other large companies to partner with, and makes them all sign NDAs. The partner companies make legal agreements ahead of time so that both parties know what will be developed/accepted. Due to the cost and limited number of partners, only a few applications are made for the device, but they are high quality. This is the model used by game consoles and some mobile devices.
On the other hand, when a company tries to market a device as a "platform", it courts as many developers as it can, from big companies to hobbyists. Usually, the development tools and documentation are free. There are no NDAs to sign, no vetting process; developers create with the assurance that end-users will have access to their product, regardless of how crappy it is. This is the model used by personal computers and some mobile devices.
What is unusual is that Apple is pursuing neither strategy. They want developers to work without prior approval, but they also want to arbitrarily block distribution. They want developers to work on their own, but they also want to keep them from talking to each other.
This approach is unexpected from a device manufacturer. It was not unreasonable of the book authors to expect that Apple would have dropped the NDA by now, as it serves no purpose other than as a barrier of entry to development.
When a company is trying to sell a device as an "experience", it finds other large companies to partner with, and makes them all sign NDAs. The partner companies make legal agreements ahead of time so that both parties know what will be developed/accepted. Due to the cost and limited number of partners, only a few applications are made for the device, but they are high quality. This is the model used by game consoles and some mobile devices.
On the other hand, when a company tries to market a device as a "platform", it courts as many developers as it can, from big companies to hobbyists. Usually, the development tools and documentation are free. There are no NDAs to sign, no vetting process; developers create with the assurance that end-users will have access to their product, regardless of how crappy it is. This is the model used by personal computers and some mobile devices.
What is unusual is that Apple is pursuing neither strategy. They want developers to work without prior approval, but they also want to arbitrarily block distribution. They want developers to work on their own, but they also want to keep them from talking to each other.
This approach is unexpected from a device manufacturer. It was not unreasonable of the book authors to expect that Apple would have dropped the NDA by now, as it serves no purpose other than as a barrier of entry to development.
Well, this was the final straw for me . . . it wasn't just this, this is now a pattern on their part, and I am taking my business elsewhere because of it.
Serious? That's hard core. This might discourage me from developing for the iPhone, but it's not going to make me buy a Zune over an iPod. :)
The new Zune stuff is looking really good right now. Like better than iPod + iTunes good.
You're kidding right? Bash Apple all you want, but you have to admit that they create the best user experiences of any company around.
Microsoft has proven for twenty years that it is incapable of creating a good user experience.
Microsoft has proven for twenty years that it is incapable of creating a good user experience.
Well, having tried both, I probably have a better perspective on the matter. However, I'll defer to authority: http://gizmodo.com/5050410/microsoft-beats-apples-itunes-gen...
Just because apple sux there's no reason to go to microsoft. That's even worse. There are linux players that are pretty good.
I think what's changing is that apple has always been as evil as microsoft. Only with much better PR. They are slipping now because there are new demands for openness which they fail to handle.
I think what's changing is that apple has always been as evil as microsoft. Only with much better PR. They are slipping now because there are new demands for openness which they fail to handle.
That's more or less what I do. Many of my toys are Apple, but I buy my more important stuff elsewhere. As much as I would love to be able to use a Mac for my work, OSX is just not Unix-ish enough for me.
In what ways? I have used OSX at work for years. It is plenty "Unix-ish" for me, and I've been using *nix for twenty-five years.
First, there is this weird thing of programs in the */bin folders versus application structures in .app directories. The next problem is the Terminal - Even xterm is more comfortable to work with, specially when you have a three-button mouse. Then there is the less than stellar X support (I always had lots of problems piping X clients from a beefier computer to my Mac). I also dislike the fact many settings are stored not in files under /etc, but in a database. And, finally, there is no package manager (but that's not a non-Unix thing, it's more a non-Linux thing).
For those reasons, I prefer a Debian-based OS. I keep reading OpenSolaris has a nice package manager that can do rollbacks and may consider it in the future. As for OSX, it's not for me.
For those reasons, I prefer a Debian-based OS. I keep reading OpenSolaris has a nice package manager that can do rollbacks and may consider it in the future. As for OSX, it's not for me.
Yes, serious, I am getting a Creative Zen Stone Plus right soon . . . Zunes suck :)
I believe in talking with my wallet when it comes to companies.
Buying responsibly is one of the things we can all do.
I believe in talking with my wallet when it comes to companies.
Buying responsibly is one of the things we can all do.
Because they have an NDA? Call me mad but maybe you're over-reacting a smidgin.
Because they are systematically violating the spirit of many freedoms they have benefited from, the Mach Kernel being a good example of freedom they continue to benefit from.
You're being serious here?
I do hope this current wave of Anti-Apple hate-fests is short lived.
Violating the spirit? They're acting in their own, and their customers best interests - no news here.
There are 2 news stories - 1. They use NDAs, 2. They reject some apps. This is really just being blown out of all proportion.
Violating the spirit? They're acting in their own, and their customers best interests - no news here.
There are 2 news stories - 1. They use NDAs, 2. They reject some apps. This is really just being blown out of all proportion.
"They're acting in their own, and their customers best interests"
I can´t see how the NDA helps their customers. While this Apple-hate thing has been blown out of proportion, the NDA thing is more than a little bit stupid.
I can´t see how the NDA helps their customers. While this Apple-hate thing has been blown out of proportion, the NDA thing is more than a little bit stupid.
The NDA is irrelevant to customers. I can't see how a customer would decide to buy based on wether the company uses NDA's for certain documents.
I suppose you could argue that using an NDA might put off developers which would mean a lack of apps for the store, but customers don't care about what apps may have been rejected, they care about the apps they can use.
I suppose you could argue that using an NDA might put off developers which would mean a lack of apps for the store, but customers don't care about what apps may have been rejected, they care about the apps they can use.
I don't think this is an overreaction. The NDA means that an iPhone developer can't legally blog about developing iPhone apps. That's a bit wild, isn't it?
Yes it's wild, and I'm glad I'm not developing iPhone apps, but for me, that doesn't make Apple evil.
I agree. "Evil" is silly language to use here. Unfortunately, "evil" is often used to describe Apple's biggest competitor, so we developers are used to misusing that term.
Let's take a step back and speak more clearly: what Apple is doing is harmful to its developer ecosystem. Not evil, and maybe not stupid (time will tell).
Let's take a step back and speak more clearly: what Apple is doing is harmful to its developer ecosystem. Not evil, and maybe not stupid (time will tell).
Yes I am being serious.
Hate fest? Personally, I have simply expressed the decision I have made as a consumer in reaction to actions I find offensive by a company.
I am also acting in my own best interests, as I have no interest in purchasing products from a company that engages in the sort of tactics we have been seeing lately.
Please do elaborate on how their tactics are safeguarding the best interests of their customers, I truly fail to see how.
Now, as far as this being blown out of proportion, well, going by that standard, hey, what's an EULA by MSFT? They are just "acting in their own, and their customers best interests", right?
Hate fest? Personally, I have simply expressed the decision I have made as a consumer in reaction to actions I find offensive by a company.
I am also acting in my own best interests, as I have no interest in purchasing products from a company that engages in the sort of tactics we have been seeing lately.
Please do elaborate on how their tactics are safeguarding the best interests of their customers, I truly fail to see how.
Now, as far as this being blown out of proportion, well, going by that standard, hey, what's an EULA by MSFT? They are just "acting in their own, and their customers best interests", right?
Additional developer resources, esp. a book from these guys, would be very welcome though...