Ask HN: 5-7 months of living expenses left; terrified. Advice?
100 comments
I'm worried about that 1-in-20 (?) chance that we don't manage to line up funding in time
You should be worried -- and if I were you I'd re-evaluate your odds. My guess is that a startup which would print money would still have more than a 1-in-20 chance of failing to get funding at the moment.
Assuming you definitely want to continue with this startup (and think about that carefully -- sometimes there's a reason why startups don't get funded), I recommend doing everything you can to lower your costs. Yes, including moving out of NYC: While gravitycop makes a good point about location being important for getting funding, it sounds like you're not the person who is going after the funding right now (based on the comment about having 'no control')... and while VCs care where a company is based, they aren't going to care much if a few employees live in the suburbs.
You should be worried -- and if I were you I'd re-evaluate your odds. My guess is that a startup which would print money would still have more than a 1-in-20 chance of failing to get funding at the moment.
Assuming you definitely want to continue with this startup (and think about that carefully -- sometimes there's a reason why startups don't get funded), I recommend doing everything you can to lower your costs. Yes, including moving out of NYC: While gravitycop makes a good point about location being important for getting funding, it sounds like you're not the person who is going after the funding right now (based on the comment about having 'no control')... and while VCs care where a company is based, they aren't going to care much if a few employees live in the suburbs.
I'd second this. If the company founders are not a.) In YC b.) best buddies with venture capitalists or c.) have previously started & exited from a startup for multimillions, I wouldn't count on them having any chance of getting funded. And even then, their odds aren't that good.
Hey now... I happen to work for a company that was very recently funded, whose founders are not in YC, or best buddies with any VCs, and they didn't have previous exits. There's actually quite a few out there... if you create good value and get noticed, then you'll likely be funded too. Let me add that the funding was in the multi-millions, not a small amount of change. However, I'm not able to say which company yet because they don't want to announce it yet, it's very recent...
Your startup doesn't have a 19 in 20 shot of being funded AFTER you get a term sheet.
I realize this is a cheap shot... but... 95% probability of a startup being funded? You didn't work on the software that rated mortgage default probabilities, did you?
creditdefaultswap.com baby. Web 2.0 mortgage derivatives.
Elevator pitch: It's like Flickr for collateralized debt obligations.
Elevator pitch: It's like Flickr for collateralized debt obligations.
I think you should have just kept that idea quietly to yourself. Forever.
Don't worry, when I get rich off of it, I'll tell everyone you inspired the idea.
haha, actually made me laugh. funniest HN comment I've read in a while.
A serial entrepreneur friend who's looking for funding on his 5th startup right now: """You pretty much have to have a working product, thrilled customers and a revenue stream right now for VC's to look at you."""
Getting funding has gotten pretty tough here in the Valley. I can only imagine that the funding scene is going to be a lot worse in New York.
Getting funding has gotten pretty tough here in the Valley. I can only imagine that the funding scene is going to be a lot worse in New York.
Huh? If you have a product that works, is growing, and revenue coming in, you don't need a VC, you need a normal business loan from a bank. If you actually have money coming in and a business plan that's demonstrably working, but just need money to expand (that's the word regular businesses use to mean "scale"), then you need to 1. get an accountant to write it up in the correct manner and 2. make an appointment with the business section of a good bank.
You still might have trouble with that right now, it's really not a good time for any kind of loans, and you can forget these multi-million dollar speculative paydays with little obligation or timeline, but if you have a proper business then you have proper business options and hopefully don't have to sell your businesses' soul to get the cash you need to grow.
You still might have trouble with that right now, it's really not a good time for any kind of loans, and you can forget these multi-million dollar speculative paydays with little obligation or timeline, but if you have a proper business then you have proper business options and hopefully don't have to sell your businesses' soul to get the cash you need to grow.
Wow, incredible words of wisdom. I am myself at a startup (http://racy.com) and we had a little funding, but are bootstrapping and trying to make sales to cover our costs. We are only 1 year through and are very very close to breaking even.
Something that I haven't seen mentioned: deferred pay is a huge problem in startups. Essentially, the founders are asking you to take venture risk with your salary, but they're not compensating you for that risk (I'm assuming they're not paying you 30% interest on that deferred amount.)
Letting them defer your pay actually encourages them to wait as long as possible before raising a new round of funding, because the money you're lending them is far cheaper (financially) than the money they would get from an investor. Meanwhile, the longer employees work, ringing up deferred comp, the more desperate they get to have the company succeed in raising its next round.
It's a really, really bad combination.
I think the rule has to be, if you're an employee, you should expect to get paid like an employee (i.e. now.) If you are taking risk like a founder, you should get equitized like one, not simply "repaid" your deferred comp. Put another way: you're basically investing that deferred comp in the business, but you're not getting paid for taking that very large risk with your money.
Letting them defer your pay actually encourages them to wait as long as possible before raising a new round of funding, because the money you're lending them is far cheaper (financially) than the money they would get from an investor. Meanwhile, the longer employees work, ringing up deferred comp, the more desperate they get to have the company succeed in raising its next round.
It's a really, really bad combination.
I think the rule has to be, if you're an employee, you should expect to get paid like an employee (i.e. now.) If you are taking risk like a founder, you should get equitized like one, not simply "repaid" your deferred comp. Put another way: you're basically investing that deferred comp in the business, but you're not getting paid for taking that very large risk with your money.
This is really good advice, I think it understates the downside risk of deferred compensation.
The investors may balk at applying their funds to deferred compensation, asking the founders to re-spin the employment agreement to convert the deferred compensation to common (or options) prior to the investment, further diluting and deferring it.
Why would the founders do that? They would be faced with a choice of no funding or new funding applied to salaries going forward.
The investors may balk at applying their funds to deferred compensation, asking the founders to re-spin the employment agreement to convert the deferred compensation to common (or options) prior to the investment, further diluting and deferring it.
Why would the founders do that? They would be faced with a choice of no funding or new funding applied to salaries going forward.
> I don't have any contacts that could lead into consulting projects
This is the problem! You need to do some networking; and I don't mean in some sleazy marketroid way.
Go to barcamps, meetups, language groups, hacker groups, photo meetups, or whatever floats your boat. Get people's twitter names and keep up conversations with them. Go to the bar with them occasionally. Make friends.
If you do this for 5-7 months I guarantee you'll have plenty of connections by the time you need to get a job, and you won't have to spend any of your work time doing it.
This is the problem! You need to do some networking; and I don't mean in some sleazy marketroid way.
Go to barcamps, meetups, language groups, hacker groups, photo meetups, or whatever floats your boat. Get people's twitter names and keep up conversations with them. Go to the bar with them occasionally. Make friends.
If you do this for 5-7 months I guarantee you'll have plenty of connections by the time you need to get a job, and you won't have to spend any of your work time doing it.
Great advice.
Actually, it doesn't even take 5-7 months. Just start e-mailing people working on stuff you like. Go to a bar camp and be above average socially, get a speaking gig there if possible. You'll be good to go.
Actually, it doesn't even take 5-7 months. Just start e-mailing people working on stuff you like. Go to a bar camp and be above average socially, get a speaking gig there if possible. You'll be good to go.
cut your living expenses...have a car? sell it for a beater. Have high rent? Move to Bronx or Brooklyn or Queens or Jersey City(if your work is close to penn station). Or if your parents live locally, move in with them(I did this). Switch to a ramen diet....stop going out, stop buying shit. Stretch every penny. You won't believe how little you can live on, if you cut out all the bullshit.
Start working on your contacts...you have 7 months to build connections...so that if shit hits the fan, you have somewhere to go fast.
Start working on your contacts...you have 7 months to build connections...so that if shit hits the fan, you have somewhere to go fast.
It's likely he doesn't have a car, most New Yorkers don't. I'd also recommend switching to a fruits and vegetables diet, instead of ramen. There are enough dedicated fruit stores in New York that make fruits and vegetables cheaper and healthier than ramen. In New York, an example of this kind of store would be "Three Guys From Brooklyn", or "Circus Fruits". With these sorts of stores you can easily bring your food expenses below $60 a month while maintaining a healthy diet.
If you are paying $1000 (with roommates) to $2000 (1BR or studio) in rent, saving a few bucks by changing your diet won't make much difference.
By the way, aren't programmers in hedge funds supposed to make $200k-$500k a year after bonuses and before taxes?
By the way, aren't programmers in hedge funds supposed to make $200k-$500k a year after bonuses and before taxes?
Sample bias - you only hear about the ones making loads because they're the only ones with noteworthy income.
With these sorts of stores you can easily bring your food expenses below $60 a month while maintaining a healthy diet.
Is that a typo? $60/mo eating fruits and veggies? I live in SF and I have a hard time imagining doing that here, let along NYC...
Is that a typo? $60/mo eating fruits and veggies? I live in SF and I have a hard time imagining doing that here, let along NYC...
This can help: free food for hungry hackers:
http://images.google.com/images?q=food+not+bombs+san+francis...
http://images.google.com/images?q=food+not+bombs+new+york
http://images.google.com/images?q=food+not+bombs+san+francis...
http://images.google.com/images?q=food+not+bombs+new+york
You have to know where to go, what to buy, and what to cook.
I've been a vegan for a number of years now and I could live off $60/mo if I wanted to. The main point is convenience. If you don't want the effort of preparing food then it costs a lot more. Simple staples like lentals, rice, etc supplemented with vegetables is a crazy cheap way to eat.
In SF districts like the mission it's easy to get cheap fresh fruit and vegetables. A lot of it is supply and demand. If you shop at Safeway they have an expectation about your spending and price accordingly.
If you are trying save every penny shop where other people who have no money shop. That probably means neighborhoods you might avoid otherwise.
I've been a vegan for a number of years now and I could live off $60/mo if I wanted to. The main point is convenience. If you don't want the effort of preparing food then it costs a lot more. Simple staples like lentals, rice, etc supplemented with vegetables is a crazy cheap way to eat.
In SF districts like the mission it's easy to get cheap fresh fruit and vegetables. A lot of it is supply and demand. If you shop at Safeway they have an expectation about your spending and price accordingly.
If you are trying save every penny shop where other people who have no money shop. That probably means neighborhoods you might avoid otherwise.
Please, tell me some of your secrets. I'm interested in cheap living/eating. :)
Oatmeal!
It's not a typo. In the post I mentioned Three Guys From brooklyn, here's a link to their weekly circular. http://3guysfrombrooklyn.tripod.com/id4.html, note that the price listed for fruit and vegetables in that circular are about the average prices for all their fruits and vegetables. Certainly things like packaged foods will be a little higher, but if you purchase mostly fruits, vegetables, tubas (the average price of a bag of 5lbs potatoes there is $1.99), etc, in addition to a few packaged foods such as orange juice, you can easily eat for less than $60 a month.
I'd recommend sticking with ramen. There's zero chance that fruit is cheaper anywhere on a cost per calorie basis, ramen is easier to find everywhere, ramen is pretty tasty and you can take more calories of ramen before you want to throw up, you can take more calories of ramen before you have diarrhea, ramen stores compactly and easily, ramen doesn't go bad, and the health benefits of fruit and vegetables are greatly exaggerated ( partly by some folks whose interest in promoting them has nothing to do with their purported health benefits). I, for one, never get sick, work out all the time, am slim and stronger than 99% of the population, have good blood pressure and cholesterol, and, to cut costs, a significant portion of my diet is ramen.
ramen + exercise > fruits/veggies + no exercise
That is neither good nor accurate advice.
I was merely pointing out that if you have limited funds and running a startup, ramen and exercise is not a bad trade-off considering the costs of fruits/veggies are usually higher.
Standard Ramen pretty much has no nutritional value. Add some veggies (first boil finely chopped carrots & celery, add frozen corn, broccoli, peas) then put in the ramen mix.
Are you joking?
And if you're eating ramen, try to find some without the MSG that most brands have in abundance. Blech.
I'll also chop up some broccoli and add it to the ramen. Along with some shredded pork (MSG-free) and chili, it's a pretty tasty dish:
http://www.piermall.com/Chinese-Shredded-Pork-Sung-No-MSG-p/...
http://chowtimes.com/2006/05/21/shredded-dried-pork-aka-meat...
http://www.piermall.com/Chinese-Shredded-Pork-Sung-No-MSG-p/...
http://chowtimes.com/2006/05/21/shredded-dried-pork-aka-meat...
I for one think MSG is a good thing but for someone so concerned with it, I'm surprised you're recommending broccoli. Other than cheese, soy and tomato, broccoli is about as high in glutamate as a food gets.
http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/spreadsheet/2486462
http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/spreadsheet/2486462
I'm not too concerned with MSG, but certain types give me a bad reaction (MSG in chips, Pho soup, ramen flavorings, etc).
Broccoli, no reaction and I can eat tons.
Broccoli, no reaction and I can eat tons.
> You won't believe how little you can live on, if you cut out all the bullshit.
No kidding. With my first startup I was living on hot dogs and hadn't left the house for months. I had literally reduced my expenses to mortgage, utilities, food. I stretched 3 months of living expenses into a year, although I ended up not needing it as we got funded after 6 months.
My one splurge was a good suit the first time we went on a fund raising interview.
No kidding. With my first startup I was living on hot dogs and hadn't left the house for months. I had literally reduced my expenses to mortgage, utilities, food. I stretched 3 months of living expenses into a year, although I ended up not needing it as we got funded after 6 months.
My one splurge was a good suit the first time we went on a fund raising interview.
Not something I'd consider a splurge. It's a sizable business expense.
> a sizable business expense.
No pun intended.
No pun intended.
Good advice. Live on bare minimum. Soon you would realize life isn't all that bad with half the expenses. At the same time, if you do enjoy spending or in other words for many these days getting frugal makes you feel inferior, insecure, might give a sense of failure in that case I would advice you get these feelings out first by speaking it out to someone as to why this is necessary and why this is good.
List down your expenses today, sit down and cut out everything that is not necessary. Scale down everything that can. And it doesn't matter if you don't sit in the Starbucks cafe or if your friends find you odd when you don't buy a fancy meal when you go out.
For rent see if you can pack it in a home office, or on a sharing basis.
Get all of these done in a month, if it gets dragged the feeling as i mentioned before gets too bad and pulls your spirit down as you would keep thinking of every penny.
Once you are lean, just put a expense plan and a plan for the company for the expected run way. Go crazy on execution. Good luck!
List down your expenses today, sit down and cut out everything that is not necessary. Scale down everything that can. And it doesn't matter if you don't sit in the Starbucks cafe or if your friends find you odd when you don't buy a fancy meal when you go out.
For rent see if you can pack it in a home office, or on a sharing basis.
Get all of these done in a month, if it gets dragged the feeling as i mentioned before gets too bad and pulls your spirit down as you would keep thinking of every penny.
Once you are lean, just put a expense plan and a plan for the company for the expected run way. Go crazy on execution. Good luck!
Oatmeal is also cheap and perhaps more healthy than ramen.
What will you do after 5-7 months? If your money did actually run out what would you do?
Whatever that is - do it now, not in 5-7 months.
For example: say you'd stop paying rent, and get evicted, where would you go? Whereever that is - go there now. What else would you stop paying for? Phone? Cable? Pretend you have no money, and act that way.
As a side suggestion to where to live, see if you can live in the startups building (do they have an office they can give you?), and put your stuff in storage.
Whatever that is - do it now, not in 5-7 months.
For example: say you'd stop paying rent, and get evicted, where would you go? Whereever that is - go there now. What else would you stop paying for? Phone? Cable? Pretend you have no money, and act that way.
As a side suggestion to where to live, see if you can live in the startups building (do they have an office they can give you?), and put your stuff in storage.
Also use it as an opportunity to sell / give away things you don't really need.
Great advice. A friend was in a similar situation. I started suggesting he go frugal on everything. When you are running out of gas 5-7 months will happen in a jiffy. Ensure you have more run way like get the 5-7 to 10-12 at least and then either do one of these:
a) Leave everything and bet on getting funds
b) Ditch funds and bet on execution to start breaking even on operations.
a) Leave everything and bet on getting funds
b) Ditch funds and bet on execution to start breaking even on operations.
Relax. I have no problem living in New York on $3K/month gross pay. That's 36K/year. Since you are working at this startup for essentially free, you should be able to convince them that you actually can only afford to work there 3-4 days/week as opposed to 5-7 which is what you are probably doing right now. If you free up some time, you will be able to find some temporary/part-time consulting work doing database admin and website updates. Meeting people that need this type of work need is relatively easy - craigslist, twitter, meetup, etc. as other posters have indicated. The only thing that you might compromise on is how much sleep you are getting, but from the sound of it, that's not a major issue for you right now.
If he were to take your advice, maybe you could elaborate on the less obvious ways of saving money?
I should probably qualify my original post by saying that I don't think I could live on 36K/year in NYC indefinitely. If I didn't have the low-paying job, my runway would disappear in 5-6 months just like the OP. As it stands, I take about $250 out of my runway a month, which means it will last much longer.
I don't really know of "less obvious ways" - what I do seems to me fairly obvious.
1) Rent - I pay $620 a month for a room in Brooklyn that fits my needs in a large apartment where a lot of other people live that's 20 minutes away on the subway from Manhattan (where I would assume the OP works). That's fairly low by anyone's standards, and I intend to keep it that way. I know that if I were to move further out (or, let's say, move out of NYC) I would be able to get a larger place for that kind of money - but the point is that I don't need a larger place, so the "per-square-foot ratio" doesn't bother me at all. I have my own room. Ambient noise coming from the living room or from someone else's room is sometimes an issue (I live with musicians). Earplugs or headphones solve that.
The utilities are split between everyone in the house, the addition is fairly negligible.
1a) This is a somewhat unhelpful generalization, but it has been my experience that someone who was working for a hedge fund in New York is usually not the type of guy that will easily get along with a bunch of pot-smoking musicians that live in a recently gentrified but still somewhat ghetto neighborhood in Brooklyn. However, the OP left and became an entrepreneur, so his soul may still be intact.
2) Food - there was a post sometime ago on how do startups minimize on food expenses. I believe PG's quote was "Rice and beans. There's about 1000 variations".
3) Dating - don't go to expensive restaurants where you are going to lose $150 in one night. A coffee in a local coffee-shop and a walk in the park or on the riverfront - $10, and you are going to have a better time anyway.
4) Sell all your old computer equipment. That old IBM X31 sitting on your bottom shelf that you replaced with the MacBook Pro? You can get around $300 for it on craigslist or ebay.
5) This is an anti-saving tip, but will work in your favor in the end - don't compromise on health insurance.
6) Clothing - I have maybe 2 or 3 outfits that are "date" or "interview" worthy. The rest are crappy t-shirts that I have from college.
There's no silver bullet, to paraphrase Brooks. It's like optimizing your software: you look at what your most expensive expenditures are (profiling) and you try to minimize each one of them in order.
I don't really know of "less obvious ways" - what I do seems to me fairly obvious.
1) Rent - I pay $620 a month for a room in Brooklyn that fits my needs in a large apartment where a lot of other people live that's 20 minutes away on the subway from Manhattan (where I would assume the OP works). That's fairly low by anyone's standards, and I intend to keep it that way. I know that if I were to move further out (or, let's say, move out of NYC) I would be able to get a larger place for that kind of money - but the point is that I don't need a larger place, so the "per-square-foot ratio" doesn't bother me at all. I have my own room. Ambient noise coming from the living room or from someone else's room is sometimes an issue (I live with musicians). Earplugs or headphones solve that.
The utilities are split between everyone in the house, the addition is fairly negligible.
1a) This is a somewhat unhelpful generalization, but it has been my experience that someone who was working for a hedge fund in New York is usually not the type of guy that will easily get along with a bunch of pot-smoking musicians that live in a recently gentrified but still somewhat ghetto neighborhood in Brooklyn. However, the OP left and became an entrepreneur, so his soul may still be intact.
2) Food - there was a post sometime ago on how do startups minimize on food expenses. I believe PG's quote was "Rice and beans. There's about 1000 variations".
3) Dating - don't go to expensive restaurants where you are going to lose $150 in one night. A coffee in a local coffee-shop and a walk in the park or on the riverfront - $10, and you are going to have a better time anyway.
4) Sell all your old computer equipment. That old IBM X31 sitting on your bottom shelf that you replaced with the MacBook Pro? You can get around $300 for it on craigslist or ebay.
5) This is an anti-saving tip, but will work in your favor in the end - don't compromise on health insurance.
6) Clothing - I have maybe 2 or 3 outfits that are "date" or "interview" worthy. The rest are crappy t-shirts that I have from college.
There's no silver bullet, to paraphrase Brooks. It's like optimizing your software: you look at what your most expensive expenditures are (profiling) and you try to minimize each one of them in order.
Beans and rice are fine for awhile. But when you get hungry for meat, find a park, lay out a net and a handful of that yummy cooked rice. Those city pigeons will gather round. They are very fat and tasty! Yummm!
Relevant posts:
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/07/does-pigeon-mea.h...
Or, if you don't want to be caught with a net see http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/127077/a_profession...
And here are some posts on trapping, dressing and cooking them: http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=206758
One post says pigeons were good city fare during the Great Depression.
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/07/does-pigeon-mea.h...
Or, if you don't want to be caught with a net see http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/127077/a_profession...
And here are some posts on trapping, dressing and cooking them: http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=206758
One post says pigeons were good city fare during the Great Depression.
Take a deep breath and relax. You've chosen to be an entrepreneur because you can't stand working in the 9-5 slave trade. Good choice. You are taking a big risk. It's exciting, it's scary, it makes you feel alive! What a great feeling.
Let's take a worst case scenario. The company fails, you lose your apartment and car and are unemployed with no money. What then?
Well, you have a million choices. You are young, smart and live in America. You wake up the next morning at your parents house and go get a job at Home Depot or 7-11 to make ends meet (or back to wall street if you can stomach it), you start saving and planning your next venture and work your way from there. You've gained valuable experience and you are living your dream, something that most people never do.
In the mean time, enjoy yourself. Feel the fear, which you will, and forge ahead. In your spare time keep working on improving your skills. Listen to CDs by Anthony Robbins for encouragement and strength. It sounds like you are doing great and remember, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward. Don't fear failure, that's just part of the ride.
Let's take a worst case scenario. The company fails, you lose your apartment and car and are unemployed with no money. What then?
Well, you have a million choices. You are young, smart and live in America. You wake up the next morning at your parents house and go get a job at Home Depot or 7-11 to make ends meet (or back to wall street if you can stomach it), you start saving and planning your next venture and work your way from there. You've gained valuable experience and you are living your dream, something that most people never do.
In the mean time, enjoy yourself. Feel the fear, which you will, and forge ahead. In your spare time keep working on improving your skills. Listen to CDs by Anthony Robbins for encouragement and strength. It sounds like you are doing great and remember, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward. Don't fear failure, that's just part of the ride.
You should assume funding will not happen. Follow your intuition here. And then calm down and realize that 5-7 months of living expenses isn't exactly scraping by. Follow everyone else's advice on cutting costs, and look for part-time work.
Your deeper problem is the expectation that someone else will invest in a company with a large team, obligations to cover back pay, several months of development behind it, and no road map to profitability. If your company is pinning its hopes on a long shot instead of figuring out how to get a revenue stream, that is your problem right there. How it gets solved depends on the company. The standard way is called bankruptcy.
Your deeper problem is the expectation that someone else will invest in a company with a large team, obligations to cover back pay, several months of development behind it, and no road map to profitability. If your company is pinning its hopes on a long shot instead of figuring out how to get a revenue stream, that is your problem right there. How it gets solved depends on the company. The standard way is called bankruptcy.
> You should assume funding will not happen. Follow your intuition here.
That's following your intuition, not his. I agree with yours, though.
That's following your intuition, not his. I agree with yours, though.
You say you don't have any control over the funding, and you didn't mention how large the start-up is, but maybe this is somewhere you could take some initiative. Would the founders let you get involved in the funding?
The reason I ask is that I assume from your experience with the Hedge Fund, that you probably have more financial expertise and contacts than the founders. Maybe they even cut you in for more.
The reason I ask is that I assume from your experience with the Hedge Fund, that you probably have more financial expertise and contacts than the founders. Maybe they even cut you in for more.
I can hardly speak for everybody, but I know for sure: 1) life is too short just to work for nothing 2) shit happens 3) may be your business model need to be concentrated on profit now, less on investment
Aside from the obvious advice to keep your expenses as low as possible, I think you might consider a change in attitude. You are playing a game with a positive expected value, but the rules of the game are such that payoffs are very large and very rare (if you've read The Black Swan, think Extremistan). Unfortunately, the game of "paying my rent check" and "eating on a daily basis" follows a different set of rules. You've been allowed the privilege of taking a risk due to your savings; once they are gone you will be playing a different game. When that time comes you may just decide that "some business guy's lame vision" is a decent alternative to being hungry on the streets coding Haskell. The choice is up to you.
Also, stop feeling scared and terrified (your words). These emotions are not helping you in any way.
Also, stop feeling scared and terrified (your words). These emotions are not helping you in any way.
Rule 1. Work for people who can pay.
Rule 2. See rule 1.
Rule 2. See rule 1.
Move to Thailand and chill for awhile. It will help you get your priorities back in line and that 5-7 months (if based on NYC living expenses) could last a few years.
why thailand? do u know that thailand is now having political instabilities?
Thailand is always unstable politically. Doesn't make it unsafe.
Right now the tourist industry there is under a lot of pressure. It would be quite easy to live there very frugally.
Thailand is quite cheap, very friendly and a good atmosphere. It also has surprisingly good access to wifi (not fast, but quite prevalent).
p.s. I was thinking Thailand is a good place to work - holiday is good too.
Right now the tourist industry there is under a lot of pressure. It would be quite easy to live there very frugally.
Thailand is quite cheap, very friendly and a good atmosphere. It also has surprisingly good access to wifi (not fast, but quite prevalent).
p.s. I was thinking Thailand is a good place to work - holiday is good too.
What about the visa? My experience is that cheap countries get incredibly expensive if you need broadband and a reasonably secure neighbourhood. Or are you talking about living in a hotel on a tourist visa? That only works for 3 to 6 months and I'm not sure it's possible continue working for a NY startup whilst in Thailand.
We stayed in Chaing Mai for about a month, had broadband access. The people we were staying with were renting a large house for about $400 a month. You can take a weekend trip to Cambodia or Vietnam and get a renewed visa when you come back. Or travel around SE Asia in general. You can do that indefinitely and it's quite cheap, even in relatively urban areas. Definitely cheaper than NYC(!)
OK, but if you're only staying for a month, the air fare is going to ruin your budget.
It's not that bad. I think we flew for about $80 round trip. There's always the trains too. :-)
$80 is indeed great but the train is much more exciting ;-)
Why not try India instead? The national language is English so it should be of little problem, plus everything there is super cheap. Buy a bicycle for $10 brand new and there's your transportation.
How much does it cost to rent a small appartment with broadband in a secure neighbourhood in India?
You could have mentioned what your startup was. Free publicity. Also, people here might provide some input about whether the odds of getting funding really are 90-95% for your type of startup.
I strongly recommend spending part of your time (one or two days a week) looking for a job to hedge your bets.
I strongly recommend spending part of your time (one or two days a week) looking for a job to hedge your bets.
If your current startup is 5-7 months away from a funding event (which may get less and less likely as the recession grinds on), consider that you may just be in the wrong startup: 3 months could be enough time to jump start something else that could actually be cash flow positive.
The standard answer, to consult, is probably the right one, and you are being wildly pessimistic about your chances of finding a sustaining consulting project. But once you start down that road, your current startup will suffer for it.
The standard answer, to consult, is probably the right one, and you are being wildly pessimistic about your chances of finding a sustaining consulting project. But once you start down that road, your current startup will suffer for it.
As everyone else has said, don't bank on funding.
I think starting to put feelers out for consulting work is probably the best strategy. Even though we've got a bit more runway, some customers and some VCs that have approached us, I've been trying to do the same for the what if case.
The upshot is if you can organize enough cash to keep yourself running through the downturn and do just enough consulting to stay afloat and start growing a revenue stream, if your company is still alive on the other side of this downturn it'll have cleared out a lot of the market and it'll put you in a pretty good position to try to raise a round if things are rosier in a year or so or if you can keep costs low to make a transition to living off of the revenue.
That's been the focus of the planning that I've been doing for us at the moment: "How do we make sure that we're alive in a year, and how much revenue will we need at that point to be self-sustaining."
I think starting to put feelers out for consulting work is probably the best strategy. Even though we've got a bit more runway, some customers and some VCs that have approached us, I've been trying to do the same for the what if case.
The upshot is if you can organize enough cash to keep yourself running through the downturn and do just enough consulting to stay afloat and start growing a revenue stream, if your company is still alive on the other side of this downturn it'll have cleared out a lot of the market and it'll put you in a pretty good position to try to raise a round if things are rosier in a year or so or if you can keep costs low to make a transition to living off of the revenue.
That's been the focus of the planning that I've been doing for us at the moment: "How do we make sure that we're alive in a year, and how much revenue will we need at that point to be self-sustaining."
Another option is to interview at some companies with the understanding that you'd only be available after, say, March. What are your skills? (I can try to see if people at my work are interested).
Interview and get the offer, then you can make a decision about whether to accept.
Finding contract work is not so much work, especially if you are willing to code in Java. Personally I dread the day when I will have to do so again, but it is better as starving. Plus, 3 to 4 months can pay for the whole year.
Just check the typical sites, I had good experiences with jobserve.co.uk (they don't only cover the UK - but I am in Europe/Germany).
iPhone contracting seems to be quite popular atm, too. If you already have a Mac, might be worth looking into. Personally I still shun the investment of getting a Mac+iPod touch.
Just check the typical sites, I had good experiences with jobserve.co.uk (they don't only cover the UK - but I am in Europe/Germany).
iPhone contracting seems to be quite popular atm, too. If you already have a Mac, might be worth looking into. Personally I still shun the investment of getting a Mac+iPod touch.
Can you use Clojure for the Java work? I'd only do Java projects if I could use Clojure as often as humanly possible.
In general I would say no, but you can always get lucky and hit on a "progressive" Java project.
I totally feel with you, but seriously, Java is not so bad that I would rather starve or freeze to death than code in Java.
I totally feel with you, but seriously, Java is not so bad that I would rather starve or freeze to death than code in Java.
5-7 months savings is above average I would guess.
Here's what I recommend:
1 - Get out of NYC fast!! Find the cheapest place you find comfortable and your 5-7 months savings will get you 12+ months. This does not need to be in the U.S.
2 - So you like coding? Ok, but what if for the next 5 years the world won't pay too well for coding? Are you prepared to get into other things?
3 - Don't Panic! Seriously. This is life, stuff happens. Find other things that allow you to be happy. Be positive and start living CHEAP!!!
1 - Get out of NYC fast!! Find the cheapest place you find comfortable and your 5-7 months savings will get you 12+ months. This does not need to be in the U.S.
2 - So you like coding? Ok, but what if for the next 5 years the world won't pay too well for coding? Are you prepared to get into other things?
3 - Don't Panic! Seriously. This is life, stuff happens. Find other things that allow you to be happy. Be positive and start living CHEAP!!!
1 - Get out of NYC fast!!
How is he supposed to get funding, if he does that?
http://paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html
2. Bad Location
Startups prosper in some places and not others. [...] It's an interesting question why cities become startup hubs, but the reason startups prosper in them is probably the same as it is for any industry: that's where the experts are. Standards are higher; people are more sympathetic to what you're doing; the kind of people you want to hire want to live there; supporting industries are there; the people you run into in chance meetings are in the same business.
-
http://paulgraham.com/startuphubs.html
In addition to the concentration that comes from specialization, startup hubs are also markets. And markets are usually centralized. Even now, when traders could be anywhere, they cluster in a few cities. It's hard to say exactly what it is about face to face contact that makes deals happen, but whatever it is, it hasn't yet been duplicated by technology.
How is he supposed to get funding, if he does that?
http://paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html
2. Bad Location
Startups prosper in some places and not others. [...] It's an interesting question why cities become startup hubs, but the reason startups prosper in them is probably the same as it is for any industry: that's where the experts are. Standards are higher; people are more sympathetic to what you're doing; the kind of people you want to hire want to live there; supporting industries are there; the people you run into in chance meetings are in the same business.
-
http://paulgraham.com/startuphubs.html
In addition to the concentration that comes from specialization, startup hubs are also markets. And markets are usually centralized. Even now, when traders could be anywhere, they cluster in a few cities. It's hard to say exactly what it is about face to face contact that makes deals happen, but whatever it is, it hasn't yet been duplicated by technology.
My advice is based on my assessment that the economy is at the beginning of a long and deep "downturn" (call it what you will). I don't think people should completely give up on coding or startups. But some of them should become side projects.
How is he supposed to get funding? I am guessing he won't get funding no matter where he is located. Yes, that's a wild guess since I know nothing about his startup. But its the best guess I have.
I do agree with PG's "location matters" advice. But it is also advice based on history. The world is changing and the historical value of certain locations might change with it.
How is he supposed to get funding? I am guessing he won't get funding no matter where he is located. Yes, that's a wild guess since I know nothing about his startup. But its the best guess I have.
I do agree with PG's "location matters" advice. But it is also advice based on history. The world is changing and the historical value of certain locations might change with it.
There's a lot of good advice here from other posters on living frugally which is all good stuff and I highly recommend you take what people have said on board about living cheaper. I'd like to make a comment about your situation as a whole.
You left your job in April, that's May through to January where you've had no salary. 8 months. You're looking at 'another 5-7 months' before funding in a recession. In effect, what you're saying is that you're looking at 12 months of unpaid work and wiping out your savings in the middle of an economic downturn in the hope that you'll find a business investor who has the cash to fund your deferred salaries, anyone elses deferred salaries (and if you're the only one then you need to change that) as well as investment moving forward.
In any economic climate what you're suggesting doesn't make sense to an investor, you need to either write that entire year's salary off or drastically change what you're doing. An investor is not there to fund salaries, especially backdated ones. If you want to move forward, you need to find a revenue stream. If you can't find a revenue stream but want to stay involved then you need to find a job and cut your involvement back.
The suggestion about Thailand makes a lot more sense than it first seems. Moving to somewhere that costs a lot less to live with your current 5-7months of new york money will give you a hefty safety net, you could take interesting projects on as and when and could possibly retain some involvement in the startup working from somewhere like Thailand, Morocco, Mexico or even the mid-west.
I hope it works out for you, if you are determined to keep at this project full time unpaid then you need to move out of NYC sooner rather than later. I would advise that you reconsider your level of involvement as this is not a profitable or revenue generating opportunity, which is what you need right now and over the coming year.
You left your job in April, that's May through to January where you've had no salary. 8 months. You're looking at 'another 5-7 months' before funding in a recession. In effect, what you're saying is that you're looking at 12 months of unpaid work and wiping out your savings in the middle of an economic downturn in the hope that you'll find a business investor who has the cash to fund your deferred salaries, anyone elses deferred salaries (and if you're the only one then you need to change that) as well as investment moving forward.
In any economic climate what you're suggesting doesn't make sense to an investor, you need to either write that entire year's salary off or drastically change what you're doing. An investor is not there to fund salaries, especially backdated ones. If you want to move forward, you need to find a revenue stream. If you can't find a revenue stream but want to stay involved then you need to find a job and cut your involvement back.
The suggestion about Thailand makes a lot more sense than it first seems. Moving to somewhere that costs a lot less to live with your current 5-7months of new york money will give you a hefty safety net, you could take interesting projects on as and when and could possibly retain some involvement in the startup working from somewhere like Thailand, Morocco, Mexico or even the mid-west.
I hope it works out for you, if you are determined to keep at this project full time unpaid then you need to move out of NYC sooner rather than later. I would advise that you reconsider your level of involvement as this is not a profitable or revenue generating opportunity, which is what you need right now and over the coming year.
Yeah, I moved to poland for four months for basically this reasons.
It seemed kind of bizarre, but it did make my money last a lot longer, even with the travel cost of getting there and back.
However, I had a friend to move in with so I wouldn't get lonely in an environment where I didn't know the language or culture. Without this, it probably would have been impossible. (I would likely have gotten depressed and unable to get any work done.)
It seemed kind of bizarre, but it did make my money last a lot longer, even with the travel cost of getting there and back.
However, I had a friend to move in with so I wouldn't get lonely in an environment where I didn't know the language or culture. Without this, it probably would have been impossible. (I would likely have gotten depressed and unable to get any work done.)
I didn't mean to imply that I'm 5-7 months from a funding event. I have 5-7 months left of savings. I keep hearing that funding prospects look good, but I don't know for sure because I'm not directly involved in the fundraising, which is good, because I'd probably have an aneurysm if I had to deal with that. I'd rather work on Wall Street than be trying to raise money.
I'd try to contact other startups and see if they need freelance work done. Instead of looking for another job, continue doing what you're doing and work part-time elsewhere.
Email other startups and ask if they're hiring, tell them about your situation and if you can pull your weight and do what's required I'm sure you'll have a job in no time.
Can't think of any startups off the top of your head? Use startupwarrior.com and map some that are close to you and start calling/emailing.
Email other startups and ask if they're hiring, tell them about your situation and if you can pull your weight and do what's required I'm sure you'll have a job in no time.
Can't think of any startups off the top of your head? Use startupwarrior.com and map some that are close to you and start calling/emailing.
Damn. You must have been making a ton of dough to save that much money. Kudos to you. I think I've got about a 1 month buffer, maybe 2.
You can survive on Lentils and rice, toss in a little Quinoa and a lime and you could go a few years on pennies. Of course, what you are outlining is that you have a life to attend to.
Well, then get a job that pays or demand pay from your current job.
You can survive on Lentils and rice, toss in a little Quinoa and a lime and you could go a few years on pennies. Of course, what you are outlining is that you have a life to attend to.
Well, then get a job that pays or demand pay from your current job.
Are you fearful of crashing and burning financially or just uncomfortable with the uncertainty of the situation? (or both)
The startup scene is certainly uncertain at the moment - then again, uncertainty is its defining experience anyhow. Learn to live with uncertainty - balance your work life with things you know you enjoy and that are always there.
One thing you could start doing now is lining up potential alternative jobs. You could even start working part-time somewhere else. One good thing about startups is that they can be flexible about things like that. And the founders who recruited you can hardly blame you.
How do you find (decent) part-time work in technology? That may be what I have to do, but I have no idea how to go about it.
Ask friends. If you don't have friends in the local tech community, find out what tech groups there are in your area and visit them. I don't know about New York, but in Seattle there are dozens focused on every aspect of technology you can imagine (Mac programming, Perl, PHP, security, blogging, computer networking, business networking, et cetera).
I moved to Seattle two years ago and knew virtually nobody. I met a lot of people through local groups like SaturdayHouse, Six Hour Startup, and nPost, got to know people, and even found a job through a friend of a friend.
It can be difficult and take time to find the kind of employment that pays and allows you the freedom to do what you love, but it is possible. I wish you much luck.
I moved to Seattle two years ago and knew virtually nobody. I met a lot of people through local groups like SaturdayHouse, Six Hour Startup, and nPost, got to know people, and even found a job through a friend of a friend.
It can be difficult and take time to find the kind of employment that pays and allows you the freedom to do what you love, but it is possible. I wish you much luck.
Go to events and talk to as many people as you can there...
http://www.meetup.com/ny-tech/
and other smaller tech meetups
http://nextny.org/
Nate Westheimer (http://innonate.com/) is the new organizer of the NY tech meetup. He has started an experiment doing office hours to have short (15 minute) meetings with people. http://innonate.com/2008/12/15/office-hours/ Sign up and go talk to him, I can almost guarantee he knows a handful of people who are looking for part time programming help.
Nate Westheimer (http://innonate.com/) is the new organizer of the NY tech meetup. He has started an experiment doing office hours to have short (15 minute) meetings with people. http://innonate.com/2008/12/15/office-hours/ Sign up and go talk to him, I can almost guarantee he knows a handful of people who are looking for part time programming help.
Depends what kind of programming you do, but the standard method is consulting. There are a lot of people and companies with projects they need implemented, and will pay by the hour for someone to build it.
I may have something for you here in NYC. Shoot me an email.
I do believe there are minimum wage laws designed to protect foolish people from such situations.
Do you have any startup ideas? You could try starting your own thing via NYC Seed.
You're an idiot for not staying and saving more money without being certain you had other work available. Sorry, just saying. I have one month of living expenses left involuntarily. Twit.
Forget about your start-up and live it up for 1 month!
Even though we didn't "technically" know ourselves to be in a recession, I knew something bizarre was going on that summer. I had some really surprising rejections. I never find rejection to be shocking, because even if you're really good, you might not be a fit... but I got turned down for in-person interviews at companies that would have been slam-dunks (for in-person interview) in mid-2007.
Anyway, I found my way to a really cool startup and began working there, the only downside being that pay would be deferred until we had funding. I was told that we'd probably have funding by November. I figured January - March was more likely, since PG's essays have educated me on the fact that funding matters are always a lot worse than expected, but I had enough savings from the hedge fund days to hold out that far.
It's January. I enjoy the work a lot more than I have at prior companies. The problem is that I have no control over the funding situation, and it's started to scare the shit out of me the minute we crossed into 2009. I only have 5-7 months of living expenses now (fuck New York's ridiculous housing costs). I honestly have no idea what I'll do if this doesn't pan out. I don't want to go back to Wall Street and might not be able to (there may not be a Wall Street). With an imploded economy, even a traditional job search is going to be risky and time-consuming. I don't have any contacts that could lead into consulting projects, and taking a typical software job (Java to implement some business guy's lame vision) is about as palatable as selling out and getting an MBA. I want to stay in technology, but working on cool projects and using decent languages (e.g. Lisp, ML, Haskell... or Python/Ruby at the very least).
If the startup gets funding, and it probably will, I'm fine. However, I'm worried about that 1-in-20 (?) chance that we don't manage to line up funding in time, in which I need to do a crash job search in an imploded economy and on shaky ground (and I don't want to do any job search, because I really like the startup and the projects I am working on). It's getting to the point where I hate spending money and I'm delaying necessary expenditures.
So, I'm staring down a 1-in-10 or 1-in-20 risk of utter disaster and now that it's 2009 I'm starting to get scared. Has anyone here been through disaster before? How did it pan out?