Touching the back wall of the Apple store(blog.lauramichet.com)
blog.lauramichet.com
Touching the back wall of the Apple store
https://blog.lauramichet.com/touching-the-back-wall-of-the-apple-store/
228 comments
Porsche has the same philosophy, from what I've heard and experienced
The Cayenne is one of the only SUVs I looked at where the sales experience made me more interested in the brand & left me with a good impression of the dealer.
I hadn't seriously considered a Porsche until I learned they make niche parts for cars for decades - like interior bits and trim that most brands stop making/carrying after about 10 years. You can get parts for a 2002-2016 Cayenne at the dealer, but even though it shares a TON of components with the 2002-2016 Touareg you won't be able to get the parts from VW that you can still source from Porsche for those same years.
I hadn't seriously considered a Porsche until I learned they make niche parts for cars for decades - like interior bits and trim that most brands stop making/carrying after about 10 years. You can get parts for a 2002-2016 Cayenne at the dealer, but even though it shares a TON of components with the 2002-2016 Touareg you won't be able to get the parts from VW that you can still source from Porsche for those same years.
They even make retrofit CarPlay head units designed to fit in their classic cars both physically and design-wise https://9to5mac.com/2020/04/23/porsche-carplay-classic-head-...
Well, for most other >10 year old cars, if all else fails you would be able to get parts scavenged from the junkyard, but I guess that doesn't work as well for Porsche (first because there's not a lot of them and second because they tend to be used longer).
This is true, but it seems a lot of the manufacturers stop making interior parts, trim, electronics, etc. for cars older than 8-10 years.
Need a seat, mirror, air conditioner vent trim, logo for your trunk, floormats? No luck with most manufacturer... and these are the kind of parts the 3rd party supplier market doesn't even attempt to do.
I still have a warranty (factory) on my other German car, but even though it is only 7 years old they do not stock or make a replacement for the hybrid battery. So even though it failed and is under warranty, the manufacturer cannot fix it. This has been ongoing over 11 months now; apparently it wouldn't happen with Porsche
Need a seat, mirror, air conditioner vent trim, logo for your trunk, floormats? No luck with most manufacturer... and these are the kind of parts the 3rd party supplier market doesn't even attempt to do.
I still have a warranty (factory) on my other German car, but even though it is only 7 years old they do not stock or make a replacement for the hybrid battery. So even though it failed and is under warranty, the manufacturer cannot fix it. This has been ongoing over 11 months now; apparently it wouldn't happen with Porsche
as exemplified by this commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8-9oIq1hxw
It is like that with a lot of brands tbh. Some dealers specialize more in the parts market and have their own sites or ebay stores. In my experience with acura the same is true where you could get 20 year old random parts.
The only time I went into a Porsche dealership was when I was shopping for a BEV and wanted to check out the Taycan. I was able to test drive it, but then the dealership put on a hard sell. I wasn't convinced the vehicle was worth the money; they thought marital advice was the appropriate counter-message. No thanks.
It isn't copied by other consumer electronics companies because none of them have the brand value of Apple. Microsoft tried the model with its own chain of stores but failed pretty quickly. Most tech is better suited for Best Buy-like megastores where shoppers can browse and try a bunch of products and brands in one go. And for phones (at least in America) most people still prefer to go to their carrier store.
Go outside of tech though and the Apple Store experience is commonplace. Apple itself copied the concept directly from high end fashion houses.
Go outside of tech though and the Apple Store experience is commonplace. Apple itself copied the concept directly from high end fashion houses.
Microsoft stores were abysmal. They felt like Best Buy without the convenience somehow.
I went in to try the (then new) Surface Studio (the drafting table like AIO) and they couldn’t find the peripheral knob. But it kept triggering, but it turned out employees would mess around with customers by spinning it while they used it.
Of course that’s just one store, but I walked by several and they all just looked depressing inside. Layouts felt about as poorly planned as a Best Buy or staples display, and even things as simple as lighting was harsher.
It’s just not as simple as making a store. The store has to provide the right vibe, and Microsoft don’t understand vibe.
I went in to try the (then new) Surface Studio (the drafting table like AIO) and they couldn’t find the peripheral knob. But it kept triggering, but it turned out employees would mess around with customers by spinning it while they used it.
Of course that’s just one store, but I walked by several and they all just looked depressing inside. Layouts felt about as poorly planned as a Best Buy or staples display, and even things as simple as lighting was harsher.
It’s just not as simple as making a store. The store has to provide the right vibe, and Microsoft don’t understand vibe.
I expected they'd do better at the products with their own name on them, but I the MS Store near me didn't stock even most standard Surface devices
Plus, IIRC their return policy on what they had in stock was worse than other PC retailers
Plus, IIRC their return policy on what they had in stock was worse than other PC retailers
You can trust Microsoft to make anything they touch suck. This has been a constant for decades at this point. Please give me contradicting examples, if they exist.
My second job was somehow a cool job for a remote Microsoft office.
The people I worked with REALLY tried and cared to deliver what the bigger MS office asked for, but the distributed nature of the organization combined with a lack of unifying vision made delivering something great almost impossible.
Even with dedication, the result would be half-baked Wizards and ASP "solutions" that met the punch list requirements
The people I worked with REALLY tried and cared to deliver what the bigger MS office asked for, but the distributed nature of the organization combined with a lack of unifying vision made delivering something great almost impossible.
Even with dedication, the result would be half-baked Wizards and ASP "solutions" that met the punch list requirements
>You can trust Microsoft to make anything they touch suck.
That's not entirely true. Microsoft is not just the Office and Windows 11 monolith of trash, but is made o dozens or even hundreds of small teams and silos, some making cool shit even though not all of them survived their niches or kept their quality.
>Please give me contradicting examples, if they exist.
Encarta, Visual Studio, the OG Xbox and 360, windows Phone 10, Zune, Surface Studio, Age of Empires, Flight Simulator, AutoRoute, IntelliMice, trackballs and ergonomic keyboards, Kinect camera systems, Spot Watches, Hololens.
That's not entirely true. Microsoft is not just the Office and Windows 11 monolith of trash, but is made o dozens or even hundreds of small teams and silos, some making cool shit even though not all of them survived their niches or kept their quality.
>Please give me contradicting examples, if they exist.
Encarta, Visual Studio, the OG Xbox and 360, windows Phone 10, Zune, Surface Studio, Age of Empires, Flight Simulator, AutoRoute, IntelliMice, trackballs and ergonomic keyboards, Kinect camera systems, Spot Watches, Hololens.
A lot of Office is very good. Nothing beats Excel.
Excel is _very_ powerful, …and very buggy and inconsistent, in my experience.
Refreshing a QueryTable object or ListObject that has the filldown option enabled to automatically copy formatting and formulæ to all cells in the same column of the object can cause all or part of the object's header row to be copied into the body of the object. There are workarounds of varying ease and varying reliability.
There's still no visible indication whether an edit box that accepts cell references or formulæ is currently in the mode where using the arrow keys inserts cell references and has no undo stack, or is in the mode where it acts like a normal textbox.
The security model still allows a user to specify that sorting and autofiltering a locked worksheet is allowed, but does not actually implement it. Trying to use those features on a locked sheet fails with a permissions error.
Similarly, if a formula returns an array, you cannot use Autofilter or right-click->Sort. Even if the array is 1-dimensional (and thus, your action applies to the entire array), Excel complains that you cannot modify part of an array. There's a workaround, that amounts to re-implementing both Autofilter and Sort using lambda(), let(), and parameter cells.
Excel doesn't like to switch reliably between sheets that aren't at the same zoom level, sometimes drawing one of them at the previous's sheet's zoom…but using blurry upscaling. Or sometimes just stops drawing part a sheet or parts of the UI, requiring Excel to be relaunched.
The web version is really a completely new spreadsheet …with unfortunately the same name as the desktop application. They have different bugs, and different features.
They have too many kinds of add-ins, each with a different management interface, and too many scripting languages. Actually, the mere number of them wouldn't be a problem…if they all worked both in desktop and on the web. As is, there's no way to script the two Excels that guarantees function in both the online and offline applications. Some of types of add-in or scripting actions can be implemented with lambda().
…Euh…I could go on for far-far too long. (^_^);
Refreshing a QueryTable object or ListObject that has the filldown option enabled to automatically copy formatting and formulæ to all cells in the same column of the object can cause all or part of the object's header row to be copied into the body of the object. There are workarounds of varying ease and varying reliability.
There's still no visible indication whether an edit box that accepts cell references or formulæ is currently in the mode where using the arrow keys inserts cell references and has no undo stack, or is in the mode where it acts like a normal textbox.
The security model still allows a user to specify that sorting and autofiltering a locked worksheet is allowed, but does not actually implement it. Trying to use those features on a locked sheet fails with a permissions error.
Similarly, if a formula returns an array, you cannot use Autofilter or right-click->Sort. Even if the array is 1-dimensional (and thus, your action applies to the entire array), Excel complains that you cannot modify part of an array. There's a workaround, that amounts to re-implementing both Autofilter and Sort using lambda(), let(), and parameter cells.
Excel doesn't like to switch reliably between sheets that aren't at the same zoom level, sometimes drawing one of them at the previous's sheet's zoom…but using blurry upscaling. Or sometimes just stops drawing part a sheet or parts of the UI, requiring Excel to be relaunched.
The web version is really a completely new spreadsheet …with unfortunately the same name as the desktop application. They have different bugs, and different features.
They have too many kinds of add-ins, each with a different management interface, and too many scripting languages. Actually, the mere number of them wouldn't be a problem…if they all worked both in desktop and on the web. As is, there's no way to script the two Excels that guarantees function in both the online and offline applications. Some of types of add-in or scripting actions can be implemented with lambda().
…Euh…I could go on for far-far too long. (^_^);
> You can trust Microsoft to make anything they touch suck.
Their stock doesn't stuck. Latest figures show MSFT has a $3.69 Trillion market cap, while apple is sitting at $3.00 Trillion.
You're living in a bubble where you think "nobody uses Microsoft."
Their stock doesn't stuck. Latest figures show MSFT has a $3.69 Trillion market cap, while apple is sitting at $3.00 Trillion.
You're living in a bubble where you think "nobody uses Microsoft."
Uses =/= being good. Arguably especially for Microsoft, they're the anti-thesis of each other.
Gamers use Windows because (until recently, and even still only in specific contexts) you need Windows to game properly. Thankfully between things like the Proton framework and broader support for Mac and Linux gaming, that's starting to change.
People in business and government use Windows because Apple has never prioritized the Enterprise environment in MacOS, and it shows. And to be honest thank fuck, otherwise MacOS might be as bad as Windows is now.
A whole lot of regular people use Windows at home, because it's just the default and you can get PC's for dirt cheap (pre-tariffs anyway) that come preinstalled with it. However that market is eroding as people go full time on smartphones for general computing and computers become less relevant overall.
I'm not saying Windows is going away, the inertia is incredible there and I suspect they'll continue trotting along, being mediocre and pissing off everyone continuously because that's really what they've always done. But let us not pretend financial success in the market is in any way an indicator of a good product. Like evolution, markets do not select for "the best" they select for "the okayest" and Windows is very much the okayest OS.
Gamers use Windows because (until recently, and even still only in specific contexts) you need Windows to game properly. Thankfully between things like the Proton framework and broader support for Mac and Linux gaming, that's starting to change.
People in business and government use Windows because Apple has never prioritized the Enterprise environment in MacOS, and it shows. And to be honest thank fuck, otherwise MacOS might be as bad as Windows is now.
A whole lot of regular people use Windows at home, because it's just the default and you can get PC's for dirt cheap (pre-tariffs anyway) that come preinstalled with it. However that market is eroding as people go full time on smartphones for general computing and computers become less relevant overall.
I'm not saying Windows is going away, the inertia is incredible there and I suspect they'll continue trotting along, being mediocre and pissing off everyone continuously because that's really what they've always done. But let us not pretend financial success in the market is in any way an indicator of a good product. Like evolution, markets do not select for "the best" they select for "the okayest" and Windows is very much the okayest OS.
Everybody uses Microsoft, because they have to. Not because they love it or even like it.
That's the root cause of why the stores failed.
Think about it: how many people openly say that they love to use Apple products vs people who openly say they love Microsoft products?
I have never ever heard anybody say/write about a great Microsoft product.
I write all of this as someone who uses Windows, Teams and other Microsoft crap every day all day.
That's the root cause of why the stores failed.
Think about it: how many people openly say that they love to use Apple products vs people who openly say they love Microsoft products?
I have never ever heard anybody say/write about a great Microsoft product.
I write all of this as someone who uses Windows, Teams and other Microsoft crap every day all day.
Excel is one example of a product that is well liked and considered extremely valuable by some people. Azure (if that’s still the name for their aws competitor) is also reasonably well liked from what I can tell. Certainly it seemed they were beating gcp by having a product people liked more.
As someone that works with large AWS, GCP, AliCloud, and Azure footprints I can assure you that Azure is god awful in every single aspect.
Especially, but not limited to, support.
Especially, but not limited to, support.
Excel was feature complete in the 90s. Everything added since has made it worse. I have 12 cores and it takes as long as it did to merely startup as in 1995.
The improved table naming and array functions seem pretty important. The flash full feature also seems quite useful.
You never learned to use the features added since 1995. That’s the problem.
Launching Excel 2010 is bliss compared to all newer versions. But lambda and let can be magical.
And Alt-Q to find Excel features is kinda good. There's usually a short annoying delay while Excel activates the feature. And once it returns results, it never places the keyboard focus on the first result, so you always have to down-arrow instead of just pressing enter to accept the first result.
And Alt-Q to find Excel features is kinda good. There's usually a short annoying delay while Excel activates the feature. And once it returns results, it never places the keyboard focus on the first result, so you always have to down-arrow instead of just pressing enter to accept the first result.
Microsoft's market size is built around legacy, IT, and PC Gaming. Yet I know people in IT that will not run Microsoft at home, just in a corporate environment. Stock does not equate to quality product. Microsoft is trillion dollar company that makes some of the worst User Experience products.
I find the user experience with Microsoft products to be bad. They continually have inconsistencies with their shortcut key bindings. Example would be Ctrl+F, find something but in Outlook it forwards and email. Visual Studio has numerous bad user experiences that they choose not to fix. Example is you cannot stash individual files in GIT, it is all or nothing. Only way around is GIT via terminal environment. It is 2025 and Visual Studio still cannot display source code in Vertical and Horizontal at the same time, one or the other. VSCode has had this feature forever. You have to pay me to use Microsoft software.
I don't need to use spreadsheets so Excel has no value to me. If a spreadsheet is needed, it is the most basic and LibreOffice works just fine. Only reason I use Outlook is because of IT. I don't even use Word and use MarkDown with PDF generators, plain text, or LaTex for documentation.
Microsoft had to universally disable Registry backups via a Windows 10 Update because they sold Surface laptops with low storage. Registry backups where filling up the hard-drive. These are the ones trying to compete against Google's Chromebooks.
WINE / Proton is displacing Windows in the PC gaming market. It actually gives users a better experience in some instances. Example would be that shaders can be compiled without running the game. Windows Direct X implementation will only compile shaders while the game is running. This will lower the FPS and has known to cause stuttering during first play through.
I will never install Windows OS on any of my computers ever again. The OS keeps getting worse and worse with newer versions. I've reached a point where if I need Windows OS the game / software is not desired and no money will change hands. I also will no longer buy a desktop or laptop that forces Windows to be purchased too. If there is ever a reason I need Window it will be installed as a VM.
The only application from Microsoft I will most likely use is VSCode and I'm trying to replace it with Zed and other tooling.
There is no argument people don't use Microsoft. The argument is the products coming out of Microsoft are low quality. Still waiting on Azure's feature to delete a GIT pull request in case sensitive information was accidentally pushed to the repository [0]. Microsoft truly does not respect the end user. You can see this with their forced bloat-ware such as Cortana, XBox features, and Recall, and user request never ending request to remove these useless / unused features.
Don't worry, their stock will go up as they push more advertisements onto the desktop for Home users. Investors love such trash.
[0] https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/t/Allow-deletion...
I find the user experience with Microsoft products to be bad. They continually have inconsistencies with their shortcut key bindings. Example would be Ctrl+F, find something but in Outlook it forwards and email. Visual Studio has numerous bad user experiences that they choose not to fix. Example is you cannot stash individual files in GIT, it is all or nothing. Only way around is GIT via terminal environment. It is 2025 and Visual Studio still cannot display source code in Vertical and Horizontal at the same time, one or the other. VSCode has had this feature forever. You have to pay me to use Microsoft software.
I don't need to use spreadsheets so Excel has no value to me. If a spreadsheet is needed, it is the most basic and LibreOffice works just fine. Only reason I use Outlook is because of IT. I don't even use Word and use MarkDown with PDF generators, plain text, or LaTex for documentation.
Microsoft had to universally disable Registry backups via a Windows 10 Update because they sold Surface laptops with low storage. Registry backups where filling up the hard-drive. These are the ones trying to compete against Google's Chromebooks.
WINE / Proton is displacing Windows in the PC gaming market. It actually gives users a better experience in some instances. Example would be that shaders can be compiled without running the game. Windows Direct X implementation will only compile shaders while the game is running. This will lower the FPS and has known to cause stuttering during first play through.
I will never install Windows OS on any of my computers ever again. The OS keeps getting worse and worse with newer versions. I've reached a point where if I need Windows OS the game / software is not desired and no money will change hands. I also will no longer buy a desktop or laptop that forces Windows to be purchased too. If there is ever a reason I need Window it will be installed as a VM.
The only application from Microsoft I will most likely use is VSCode and I'm trying to replace it with Zed and other tooling.
There is no argument people don't use Microsoft. The argument is the products coming out of Microsoft are low quality. Still waiting on Azure's feature to delete a GIT pull request in case sensitive information was accidentally pushed to the repository [0]. Microsoft truly does not respect the end user. You can see this with their forced bloat-ware such as Cortana, XBox features, and Recall, and user request never ending request to remove these useless / unused features.
Don't worry, their stock will go up as they push more advertisements onto the desktop for Home users. Investors love such trash.
[0] https://developercommunity.visualstudio.com/t/Allow-deletion...
C# is an absolutely fantastic programming language. It runs pretty much everywhere, is garbage collected but has a lot of low level primitives for performance optimization when necessary, the people building the language are making excellent calls when adding new features.
WinForms, WPF, UWP.
They abandoned forms and WPF, and UWP is getting much the same treatment.
Also there was the whole framework/standard/core fiasco
They abandoned forms and WPF, and UWP is getting much the same treatment.
Also there was the whole framework/standard/core fiasco
About a year after the Apple Store opened on Boylston Street in Boston, a Microsoft Store popped up across the street in the Prudential Center. I only ever went in to get a replacement for my Microsoft Arc Mouse that I used with my MacBook (LOL). It was a funny store because the employees felt like it was their moral duty to be the antithesis to Apple...which didn't make sense because the Apple Store had bigger crowds than they did, and that's even after Microsoft added an Xbox play area.
Anyhoo, they shuttered pretty quickly (Apple Store is still there, of course).
Anyhoo, they shuttered pretty quickly (Apple Store is still there, of course).
A friend worked at a window blinds company that decided to open up their own stores. They previously had display areas a Home Depot stores. They hired a women who had successfully rolled out stores for a fashion company, and was interesting to see all that goes into it. Deciding on potential locations, leasing the spaces, doing interior layouts, paint colors, lighting, displays. It's a skill set that you wouldn't normally think about.
> But it kept triggering, but it turned out employees would mess around with customers by spinning it while they used it.
Oh man, that would have really set me off. What's the point of customer demos if the employees are going to ruin them?
I, uniquely it seems, had a great experience with a Microsoft store. And it almost made me buy a surface studio, but a decade later, I've admittedly only ever upgraded my MacBooks...
When I first went to the new Microsoft store near by university, I really wanted to try the Studios (I was an art minor; it seemed amazing to draw on). I ended up sitting there in the mall drawing on it for a few hours while my friends shopped. I apparently attracted a crowd, and the local employees called corporate to tell them. They asked for my number and I ended up getting a call from a Microsoft marketing employee asking to talk to me because they wanted to turn this "spontaneous mall moment" into a TV ad. I don't think an ad ever aired though.
Oh man, that would have really set me off. What's the point of customer demos if the employees are going to ruin them?
I, uniquely it seems, had a great experience with a Microsoft store. And it almost made me buy a surface studio, but a decade later, I've admittedly only ever upgraded my MacBooks...
When I first went to the new Microsoft store near by university, I really wanted to try the Studios (I was an art minor; it seemed amazing to draw on). I ended up sitting there in the mall drawing on it for a few hours while my friends shopped. I apparently attracted a crowd, and the local employees called corporate to tell them. They asked for my number and I ended up getting a call from a Microsoft marketing employee asking to talk to me because they wanted to turn this "spontaneous mall moment" into a TV ad. I don't think an ad ever aired though.
Yet they sell Apple at Best Buy
[deleted]
i wonder if it's true anymore.
Recently i've bought the new iphone, it's not as expensive as the high end macbook, but still, not a small amount of money.
I got to the store, asked for the phone, finalized my purchase and got out, all in 15 min i guess. No second guess, no cold feet, because i had been researching smartphones for years before going with it, i knew what i would get and what i wouldn't.
Back in the day you would indeed need to go to the store to know what you were getting.
Recently i've bought the new iphone, it's not as expensive as the high end macbook, but still, not a small amount of money.
I got to the store, asked for the phone, finalized my purchase and got out, all in 15 min i guess. No second guess, no cold feet, because i had been researching smartphones for years before going with it, i knew what i would get and what i wouldn't.
Back in the day you would indeed need to go to the store to know what you were getting.
If you know how iPhones work then online research is enough, but if you haven’t played with one it makes sense to use it at the store as research, or even if you’re just curious.
Same for Android, I wouldn’t buy one without testing before, for example.
Also: The Microsoft and Chromebook displays at electronics chain-stores have seriously stepped up their game in the last 10 years or so. Before that it was a shitshow, with keyboards missing keys and the OS crashing on demo devices that would be otherwise perfectly usable machines.
Same for Android, I wouldn’t buy one without testing before, for example.
Also: The Microsoft and Chromebook displays at electronics chain-stores have seriously stepped up their game in the last 10 years or so. Before that it was a shitshow, with keyboards missing keys and the OS crashing on demo devices that would be otherwise perfectly usable machines.
sheiyei(4)
It was (is?) a really good way of letting you know you could hang around and play with the machines - at the time Computer City and similar places (which is what Apple was really trying to compensate for, many of them had few or no Macs at all) would heavily imply you should "buy or leave" if you stayed too long.
Circuit City was the worst. I miss most computer stores, but I felt a personal sense of satisfaction when they went under.
I remember the first time I tried to buy something at an Apple store. Usually avoid 'em cause I don't like Apple as a company, but I do like their laptops. I'd decided an M3 air was gonna be perfect as a general use laptop.
Walked into the store, waited 30 minutes for one of their "friendly, professional staff" to come up & help me, making eye contact, etc.
Eventually I had to walk up to one of them standing there and tell them I wanted to buy something. Then it turns out they didn't even have one in stock...in their flagship London store...
Literally I wanted to walk in, pay immediately & walk out. I already knew exactly what I wanted. I don't know why people laude the "Apple experience".
Walked into the store, waited 30 minutes for one of their "friendly, professional staff" to come up & help me, making eye contact, etc.
Eventually I had to walk up to one of them standing there and tell them I wanted to buy something. Then it turns out they didn't even have one in stock...in their flagship London store...
Literally I wanted to walk in, pay immediately & walk out. I already knew exactly what I wanted. I don't know why people laude the "Apple experience".
Their flagship shops (Especially London) are really not places you go to buy on a whim, it's why they have a booking and collection process - yes it might suck but its by far one of their busiest shops.
Well it was more the store was full of teenagers and kids generally fucking around while their parents browsed. Plenty of those parents were getting attended to by staff - even if they had bookings, it takes a spare staff member (of which there were many just milling around) one minute to ask me what I'm here for and recommend I make a booking if I had a complex request.
The conversation literally would have been "can I help you?" "Yes I want a space grey m3 macbook air, 16gb ram 512gb ssd, I will pay for it right now and then leave this terrible place tyvm". With the laptop on-hand the purchasing process would've taken as little time as it took for them to ram it into pos and for my phone nfc to pay.
The conversation literally would have been "can I help you?" "Yes I want a space grey m3 macbook air, 16gb ram 512gb ssd, I will pay for it right now and then leave this terrible place tyvm". With the laptop on-hand the purchasing process would've taken as little time as it took for them to ram it into pos and for my phone nfc to pay.
Out of interest how long ago was this? The Covent Garden and Oxford street ones literally have a queue line for pickups and purchases over in the far right. Not 100% sure how long Oxford street has had theirs (at least since Xmas) but I know for a fact it's existed at Covent Garden's since day one as I used to work there.
I'm trying to get better at replying to my internet friendos!
It was last year, 2024, in the year of our lord ChatGPT.
Oh, I certainly had a good look around in the 20-30 minutes I was waiting for attention. But I couldn't find anything like what you describe, nor staff to interact with me to at least get directed to the right place (which would take 10 seconds).
I mean I'm not saying it's a _bad_ shop. I'm just saying it's not always the angelic, golden, sterile, etc experience that many claim.
It was last year, 2024, in the year of our lord ChatGPT.
Oh, I certainly had a good look around in the 20-30 minutes I was waiting for attention. But I couldn't find anything like what you describe, nor staff to interact with me to at least get directed to the right place (which would take 10 seconds).
I mean I'm not saying it's a _bad_ shop. I'm just saying it's not always the angelic, golden, sterile, etc experience that many claim.
I mean, it sounds like the XP was fine, they were just out of stock.. I assume they offered to order one for you, otherwise there's not much can be done about the logistics.
Ironically, enough, I've made the exact same purchase (well, not the color, but still an M3 MacBook Air) -- the Apple experience for me was literally "purchase from the online store in the evening, pick up from physical store next day during lunch break."
They've always nailed that balance of making the store feel like a chill hangout and a temple of aspiration
I will never forget one of my earliest Apple purchases being a macbook pro. I was convinced that I needed a certain specd machine that was more expensive. The person I was working with instead of just accepting what I thought I wanted asked me about what I was doing with it and really encouraged the lower cost machine.
I ended up getting the lower cost machine and it was still great. It was still a Macbook pro. I don't remember what the spec difference was now but I do remember thinking back and realizing it was right. The higher specs really would not have added anymore life to the machine so it wasn't like I upgraded sooner than I would have otherwise.
Complete opposite of nearly any other tech purchasing process, always seem to want me to spend as much money as possible.
I ended up getting the lower cost machine and it was still great. It was still a Macbook pro. I don't remember what the spec difference was now but I do remember thinking back and realizing it was right. The higher specs really would not have added anymore life to the machine so it wasn't like I upgraded sooner than I would have otherwise.
Complete opposite of nearly any other tech purchasing process, always seem to want me to spend as much money as possible.
Yesterday, I went into Best Buy with a friend to look at soundbars. As we were looking, a young man came up and said "Do you have any questions?" - I said we were just browsing, and he smiled and that was that.
He came back a few minutes later when he saw me scanning a QR code on the price tag. Odd since I signaled I didn't need anything. He asked again, "Anything you need help with?" - This time I was still wishy-washy but said "Yeah, I'm checking the inputs on this soundbar to see if it has 3.5mm and how many HDMI ports it has".
And without asking any more details, he smiled and said "Alright!" and walked away. We were completely baffled.
He came back a few minutes later when he saw me scanning a QR code on the price tag. Odd since I signaled I didn't need anything. He asked again, "Anything you need help with?" - This time I was still wishy-washy but said "Yeah, I'm checking the inputs on this soundbar to see if it has 3.5mm and how many HDMI ports it has".
And without asking any more details, he smiled and said "Alright!" and walked away. We were completely baffled.
Assuming it wasn’t just following up in case you really did need some help now, probably a “loss prevention” technique. Retail folks are almost never going to accuse someone of stealing and “following around a hovering” behavior is discouraged. Instead the recommendation is to keep an eye on someone you suspect to be shady and just swing by every couple of minutes to “check on them”. Even if you can’t see what they’re doing every moment, the constant reminders that you know they’re there and that you might see them is often enough to discourage theft.
Works reasonably well. When I worked retail we had a person whose MO was to come into the store, browse the expensive headphones, take one off the shelf and put it down on the floor with their book bag while they looked at something else. After about 10 or 15 minutes they’d pick up the book bag and sweep the headphones inside as they were standing up and then walk out the door. If you stopped by while they were looking at the other thing and asked them if they needed any help with finding some accessories for the headphones or just offering to “hold it at the register” for them, they would wind up putting them back (or handing them to you and tell you they changed their mind) and leaving.
Works reasonably well. When I worked retail we had a person whose MO was to come into the store, browse the expensive headphones, take one off the shelf and put it down on the floor with their book bag while they looked at something else. After about 10 or 15 minutes they’d pick up the book bag and sweep the headphones inside as they were standing up and then walk out the door. If you stopped by while they were looking at the other thing and asked them if they needed any help with finding some accessories for the headphones or just offering to “hold it at the register” for them, they would wind up putting them back (or handing them to you and tell you they changed their mind) and leaving.
This was definitely the way Apple (used to) teach their employees. The 3 big “rules” were
1) No upsell pressure. We all got a flat hourly wage, so whether you bought the 5k computer or the 1k computer, we earned the same money. So focus on selling the customer the right computer for their needs.
2) It’s better to send the customer somewhere else or let them walk out the door than it is to sell them something that won’t work for them. Sort of a corollary to the first item, but the idea was more than anything, customers should feel like they could trust us. And if building that trust meant telling the customer “we do have USB cables, but the Belkin one we’re selling for $25 is no better for your printer than the generic brand Best Buy is selling across the street” then that’s what we did. A customer who trusts us is a customer that comes back, and a customer that comes back is a customer that buys more things. Sure they may not buy the USB cable today, but next month when they’re buying some other thing for their computer, they might just pick up some other cable or item that they might be able to get cheaper elsewhere, but they’re already here, we have it and they trust us to stock quality items.
3) Never ever make something up or guess. All the computers are fully functional and hooked up to the internet for a reason. If you don’t know the answer, tell that to the customer and take them over to a computer and look it up with them. You get a chance to demo the machine, you get a chance to let the customer try out the machine and most importantly you maintain that trust. The customer can feel confident you’re not bullshitting them, and they can feel confident in the answer you finally do reach because you looked it up together.
Apple’s opposition to being anything like CompUSA or other computer retailers at the time was IMO a huge factor in making their stores as big and popular as they were and are. Unfortunately my experience by the time I left was Apple’s rapid growth meant they were hiring more and more from outside the pool of “Apple enthusiasts ” and more and more from the wider retail world. It’s really hard to “untrain” the “high pressure commission sales” mindset from folks who have needed to live off that sort of sales approach. We’d also started to see some of it come down from above in the form of tracking individual “attachment metrics” like AppleCare. Back when AppleCare didn’t have accidental damage coverage, the pressure to sell AppleCare with the product in question rather than after the fact (at the time, up to 1 year after purchase) was antithetical to their otherwise strong focus on no upsells and building trust.
1) No upsell pressure. We all got a flat hourly wage, so whether you bought the 5k computer or the 1k computer, we earned the same money. So focus on selling the customer the right computer for their needs.
2) It’s better to send the customer somewhere else or let them walk out the door than it is to sell them something that won’t work for them. Sort of a corollary to the first item, but the idea was more than anything, customers should feel like they could trust us. And if building that trust meant telling the customer “we do have USB cables, but the Belkin one we’re selling for $25 is no better for your printer than the generic brand Best Buy is selling across the street” then that’s what we did. A customer who trusts us is a customer that comes back, and a customer that comes back is a customer that buys more things. Sure they may not buy the USB cable today, but next month when they’re buying some other thing for their computer, they might just pick up some other cable or item that they might be able to get cheaper elsewhere, but they’re already here, we have it and they trust us to stock quality items.
3) Never ever make something up or guess. All the computers are fully functional and hooked up to the internet for a reason. If you don’t know the answer, tell that to the customer and take them over to a computer and look it up with them. You get a chance to demo the machine, you get a chance to let the customer try out the machine and most importantly you maintain that trust. The customer can feel confident you’re not bullshitting them, and they can feel confident in the answer you finally do reach because you looked it up together.
Apple’s opposition to being anything like CompUSA or other computer retailers at the time was IMO a huge factor in making their stores as big and popular as they were and are. Unfortunately my experience by the time I left was Apple’s rapid growth meant they were hiring more and more from outside the pool of “Apple enthusiasts ” and more and more from the wider retail world. It’s really hard to “untrain” the “high pressure commission sales” mindset from folks who have needed to live off that sort of sales approach. We’d also started to see some of it come down from above in the form of tracking individual “attachment metrics” like AppleCare. Back when AppleCare didn’t have accidental damage coverage, the pressure to sell AppleCare with the product in question rather than after the fact (at the time, up to 1 year after purchase) was antithetical to their otherwise strong focus on no upsells and building trust.
That comes off as arrogant as a corporate face can be: Oh, don't worry darling. You will be back for more and we know each time your cravings will be stronger until you finally give in. See you and have a lovely day.
> [The older non-iPod MP3 player] left a bigger impact on my life, really, than the iPod, because it was the thing that got me into media piracy, and led me to install Linux on an old laptop, which I used exclusively for media piracy. This increased my computer proficiency dramatically (though not to the point where I became a habitual Linux user) and set off a chain of events that made me much more comfortable with amateur web development and eventually game development.
This is such a funny end to this article that is reflected in my time too using Apple and non-Apple products. I had a similar generic MP3 player and I also got heavily into piracy (I remember it had a small screen so I tried to compress and stuff a full movie into it, which I successfully did by learning about and messing with ffmpeg settings, for example). Then when I got an early iPhone, I was flabbergasted as to how locked down the thing was (no, I do not want to sync my entire phone audio contents to iTunes), and soon after I switched to Android. Only recently have I started using a Mac and that's only because for historical reasons it's not locked down like the rest of Apple's devices, you can actually run whatever software you want on it without needing to go through a walled garden.
This is such a funny end to this article that is reflected in my time too using Apple and non-Apple products. I had a similar generic MP3 player and I also got heavily into piracy (I remember it had a small screen so I tried to compress and stuff a full movie into it, which I successfully did by learning about and messing with ffmpeg settings, for example). Then when I got an early iPhone, I was flabbergasted as to how locked down the thing was (no, I do not want to sync my entire phone audio contents to iTunes), and soon after I switched to Android. Only recently have I started using a Mac and that's only because for historical reasons it's not locked down like the rest of Apple's devices, you can actually run whatever software you want on it without needing to go through a walled garden.
Macs are the only reasonable Apple product at the moment, except for the ridiculously priced accessories (headphones, mostly). Some of them are even upgradeable through tinkering, which is 2 things literally opposite of what Apple seems to want their customers to be thinking about.
AirPods are the only wireless earbuds I've used that handle 2-way Bluetooth audio between multiple devices well. They also sound okay, although I have $20 wired IEMs I imported from Shenzen that are more comfortable and sound just as good.
I also think the iPad isn't terrible, although it's a bit on the expensive side.
I also think the iPad isn't terrible, although it's a bit on the expensive side.
After picking up my young daughters (Samsung) android tablet and finding it flat again after 5 days, it’s refreshing how well things like power management just work on the iPad
If you are still into wired headphones, the basic apple earbuds are a pretty good value at $19. I like them enough to have ordered new ones when I've lost the old ones.
I still run the theory that Apple has actors on staff to just “be cool at the Apple Store”. I once went into the local store during daytime in summer (my lunch break) to pick up an order. There was a very attractive young woman dancing next to the headphones seemingly testing out a pair of AirPod Max. And the rest of the store was also filled with strangely attractive persons.
I wasn’t able to verify my theory because I have a work life and don’t happen to walk by an Apple Store during working hours. But in my mind I believe it would totally be Apple if they hire extra cool folk to make the store feel more hip and not empty.
I hate to say it but apple store employees have a strange aura of... fertility?
What a terrible day to know how to read
Nice, a conspiracy theory I can get behind.
I wonder: what roles are they being hired for? How does Apple ensure they never talk about their work?
I wonder: what roles are they being hired for? How does Apple ensure they never talk about their work?
They definitely do this in bars. I've had friends that got recruited thru modelling agencies. It's not a huge stretch to think of them doing it in other types of retail too.
What bars have that kind of margins? I know most restaurants don't.
Most likely hired by a liquor brand similar to shot girls/guys.
The ones selling a lifestyle and 30 euro* drinks to people competing to get in.
(I have no idea how much a drink costs in the US so I’m using my local prices and currency for overpriced drinks)
(I have no idea how much a drink costs in the US so I’m using my local prices and currency for overpriced drinks)
Bars usually have a whole funnel around getting more women in. Whether it's free drinks, quiz nights hosted by cute girls, the bouncer thing where they filter out some people.
We once had a guest lecturer who broke down the ROI of making the ladies bathrooms beautiful (but not the men's). Presumably it leads to more alcohol consumption, which is where the margins are. I think restaurants in the UK make almost no money on the food itself.
We once had a guest lecturer who broke down the ROI of making the ladies bathrooms beautiful (but not the men's). Presumably it leads to more alcohol consumption, which is where the margins are. I think restaurants in the UK make almost no money on the food itself.
Women's bathroom is a social space. Men's bathroom is a social space only for sex, which most venues don't want.
This is true of restaurants everywhere. The reason they always ask you what you want to drink and if you want dessert is because those things have margins that can turn their night from red to black as a business. The food in most places is a draw so you’ll drink and then buy cake.
Not the case in Muslim countries and I guess developing countries, lol. Developing countries have very low labor costs.
In some places, the drink is the loss leader. A group of people head out to a place and pay the minimum - a $0.50 cup of tea. One of them will buy a basket of snacks for the group. Someone in that group might order the food. A plate of noodles or naan is nearly free in terms of ingredient costs.
Sometimes it's the atmosphere. I'm not sure if other countries have this, but there might be a major game on TV - football, wrestling, etc. Not everyone can afford to watch it at home, so everyone goes to a cheap restaurant. Sometimes the people who do have it at home just go to hear the cheers.
In some places, the drink is the loss leader. A group of people head out to a place and pay the minimum - a $0.50 cup of tea. One of them will buy a basket of snacks for the group. Someone in that group might order the food. A plate of noodles or naan is nearly free in terms of ingredient costs.
Sometimes it's the atmosphere. I'm not sure if other countries have this, but there might be a major game on TV - football, wrestling, etc. Not everyone can afford to watch it at home, so everyone goes to a cheap restaurant. Sometimes the people who do have it at home just go to hear the cheers.
I met a girl I knew while she was doing one of those jobs and it was a very boring, normal, local kind of pub. I guess the goal is to increase profits so it's seen as marketing/an investment.
If doing the thing is profitable it can cause net margins to go up.
I used to run a small club promotion gig in London with some friends.
Clubs would give us £10 per girl we brought in, but much more importantly (to us) give us a table bang in the VIP section and a few free bottles. We would aim to bring 10-20 girls with us.
The girls would go and mingle with other tables in the VIP area who were often men who'd paid through the nose for a VIP table (£1,000 a bottle for alcohol that generally cost less than £50 wholesale, and this was in the early 2000s), because generally they knew they were rich guys and they had free alcohol on their tables.
At several set points, the club would send our table bottles of alcohol with fireworks and make a big deal out of it, and all the girls would migrate back to our table for the drinks and high-fives, which would encourage the men with the actual money to then order their own bottles in the hope of luring the girls back.
The girls were (frequently American) university students who got a free night out hosted by people they trusted, in a venue with bouncers they came to know well, we got the immense social proof of being the people at the center of the VIP section surrounded by girls which helped our own love lives no end, the club spent a few hundred bucks on us but filled their VIP area with pretty girls, and finally the bankers who'd paid a huge amount for their VIP table got pretty young American university students to talk to.
I'm sure this is still a popular model, and we were very far from the only people doing it.
Clubs would give us £10 per girl we brought in, but much more importantly (to us) give us a table bang in the VIP section and a few free bottles. We would aim to bring 10-20 girls with us.
The girls would go and mingle with other tables in the VIP area who were often men who'd paid through the nose for a VIP table (£1,000 a bottle for alcohol that generally cost less than £50 wholesale, and this was in the early 2000s), because generally they knew they were rich guys and they had free alcohol on their tables.
At several set points, the club would send our table bottles of alcohol with fireworks and make a big deal out of it, and all the girls would migrate back to our table for the drinks and high-fives, which would encourage the men with the actual money to then order their own bottles in the hope of luring the girls back.
The girls were (frequently American) university students who got a free night out hosted by people they trusted, in a venue with bouncers they came to know well, we got the immense social proof of being the people at the center of the VIP section surrounded by girls which helped our own love lives no end, the club spent a few hundred bucks on us but filled their VIP area with pretty girls, and finally the bankers who'd paid a huge amount for their VIP table got pretty young American university students to talk to.
I'm sure this is still a popular model, and we were very far from the only people doing it.
I heard the scientologists used to do it on Tottenham Court Road as well.
Apple products are expensive. Assuming most people inside an Apple store can afford them, they will be wealthier than the average, which means they will be better dressed, groomed, and will generally take better care of themselves than the average.
Wouldn't surprise me if there's a whole internal playbook on "ambient aspiration."
A&F stores did (do?) this. It’s ridiculous.
Having worked in said fruit stand for several years, I can assure you that you were neither undetected nor unplayed. We kept score, too!
Okay now we need more details here, please!
I definitely won't forget the cheap MP3 player I had when I was younger, a Sandisk Sansa Clip+, running Rockbox for much of its life. That thing was crazy small, had great audio quality (something something frequency response,) could play DOOM (on a tiny monochrome screen) and pretty much whatever audio files you cared about, had a decent battery life, and to top it off, it was expandable via microSD.
Certainly iPods were slicker and cooler, but I definitely didn't care. No SD card slot, had to be synced with iTunes, etc. Was not for me.
Certainly iPods were slicker and cooler, but I definitely didn't care. No SD card slot, had to be synced with iTunes, etc. Was not for me.
> Certainly iPods were slicker and cooler, but I definitely didn't care. No SD card slot, had to be synced with iTunes, etc. Was not for me.
I got an iPod Nano when I was in 8th or 9th grade, and I loved it. I loved it for its slickness, its fancy display, etc.
Even so, I didn't want iTunes, as I had a much superior player anyway. And I couldn't run it on my own computer even if I wanted to, because by then I was a habitual Linux user. That was okay! Libgpod had good support for syncing with iPods, even though their on-disk format was needlessly obscure.
But I noticed something, after plugging my iPod into the school computers (which had iTunes) to copy some music onto it updated its firmware. Syncing stopped working!
In the lifetime of that device, I went on to witness a series of firmware updates that made no improvements at all, but broke syncing with 3rd-party apps. My previous MP3 player experience was with the excellent MuVo TX FM, which was basically a USB stick with a battery, and let you load music onto it just by naively copying files. Apple's behavior struck me as extremely user-hostile, coercive, condescending, and irritating, and I never forgot it.
I decided then and there that that iPod Nano would be my last Apple purchase. I kept that promise for more than two decades, even after deciding I wanted to own an Apple computer, making sure to always buy used, even for recent models. I finally caved this year, when I bought a gift for someone else based on their preferences and needs, and wanted to give them something properly brand new.
As for the iPod: it, too, eventually received a Rockbox port, which I installed on it and quite enjoyed for a while, before eventually giving it away.
I got an iPod Nano when I was in 8th or 9th grade, and I loved it. I loved it for its slickness, its fancy display, etc.
Even so, I didn't want iTunes, as I had a much superior player anyway. And I couldn't run it on my own computer even if I wanted to, because by then I was a habitual Linux user. That was okay! Libgpod had good support for syncing with iPods, even though their on-disk format was needlessly obscure.
But I noticed something, after plugging my iPod into the school computers (which had iTunes) to copy some music onto it updated its firmware. Syncing stopped working!
In the lifetime of that device, I went on to witness a series of firmware updates that made no improvements at all, but broke syncing with 3rd-party apps. My previous MP3 player experience was with the excellent MuVo TX FM, which was basically a USB stick with a battery, and let you load music onto it just by naively copying files. Apple's behavior struck me as extremely user-hostile, coercive, condescending, and irritating, and I never forgot it.
I decided then and there that that iPod Nano would be my last Apple purchase. I kept that promise for more than two decades, even after deciding I wanted to own an Apple computer, making sure to always buy used, even for recent models. I finally caved this year, when I bought a gift for someone else based on their preferences and needs, and wanted to give them something properly brand new.
As for the iPod: it, too, eventually received a Rockbox port, which I installed on it and quite enjoyed for a while, before eventually giving it away.
The MP3 player I had before that iPod was a much more generic one. I've spent the last few days occasionally checking Wikipedia and other places online to see if I can tell which one it was, and I have absolutely no idea.
Might've been an S1, which arguably was better than Apple's products in many ways, and likely sold a lot more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S1_MP3_player
Might've been an S1, which arguably was better than Apple's products in many ways, and likely sold a lot more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S1_MP3_player
The business model of the S1 is just wild. It mimics the PC clone industry of the 1990s.
From the Wikipedia page:
This product is what is referred to as a 'common mold' which means many different suppliers can produce this same model. The manufacturers are almost exclusively located in China.
Primarily defined by the use of a system-on-a-chip of one of the Actions brands and some common core features, S1 products vary widely in software and hardware as well as design.
I counted 62 different manufacturers listed in the Wikipedia article that apparently licensed this reference design (the core features and basic hardware), and who then made variations to the user interface or added a feature or two, and slapped their names onto it.
There seems to have been a whole industry of MP3 Players that were essentially identical at the core electronics level in the early 2000s, and we never realized it.
From the Wikipedia page:
This product is what is referred to as a 'common mold' which means many different suppliers can produce this same model. The manufacturers are almost exclusively located in China.
Primarily defined by the use of a system-on-a-chip of one of the Actions brands and some common core features, S1 products vary widely in software and hardware as well as design.
I counted 62 different manufacturers listed in the Wikipedia article that apparently licensed this reference design (the core features and basic hardware), and who then made variations to the user interface or added a feature or two, and slapped their names onto it.
There seems to have been a whole industry of MP3 Players that were essentially identical at the core electronics level in the early 2000s, and we never realized it.
DankPods on youtube has a long running series documenting these low cost mp3 players, or as he calls them, nuggets.
i remember it very well, i bought a Sony at F.Y.E. at the mall. as a child, my mother insisted on Sony as it was reputable brand (thank god because they truly were better devices). But the non-Zune/Sony/iPod selections were all duplicates of the same garbage, this was ~2007.
Oh, good memories. Everyone had one of these at school! I think I had a 64 MB version. It was peak commodity tech at the time.
I remember getting a Creative Zen a few years later, and it was the first time when I realized how everything turns into crap with the technology advancement. No batteries, so needed USB charger to travel (USB chargers weren't even too popular back then). No mass storage support, only sync through Windows-only software, MTP was unusable on Linux, didn't work with cars or boomboxes. Video playback required converting to very specific formats, which the provided software often failed to do, needed custom codec packs. Absolutely required MP3 ID tags to even show the song in the playlist. Cool idea for a player, but the software was pure garbage. I think I broke it once and used the old player for years more.
I remember getting a Creative Zen a few years later, and it was the first time when I realized how everything turns into crap with the technology advancement. No batteries, so needed USB charger to travel (USB chargers weren't even too popular back then). No mass storage support, only sync through Windows-only software, MTP was unusable on Linux, didn't work with cars or boomboxes. Video playback required converting to very specific formats, which the provided software often failed to do, needed custom codec packs. Absolutely required MP3 ID tags to even show the song in the playlist. Cool idea for a player, but the software was pure garbage. I think I broke it once and used the old player for years more.
Oh my these devices were everywhere.
I started with a 32 MB Diamond Rio PMP300, so cramped as I transcoded music to 64kbps just to cram an hour in there, but the ability to listen to music without it _ever_ skipping (I was MTBing in the summer and snowboarding in the winter) was invaluable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300
And then upgraded to a 64MB Rio 600
https://tweakers.net/ext/i/964783073.jpg
After that it was straight up to a 4GB black iPod Nano gen 1 that I rocked for a loooooong time as it was insanely hardened and durable.
I started with a 32 MB Diamond Rio PMP300, so cramped as I transcoded music to 64kbps just to cram an hour in there, but the ability to listen to music without it _ever_ skipping (I was MTBing in the summer and snowboarding in the winter) was invaluable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300
And then upgraded to a 64MB Rio 600
https://tweakers.net/ext/i/964783073.jpg
After that it was straight up to a 4GB black iPod Nano gen 1 that I rocked for a loooooong time as it was insanely hardened and durable.
Archos did some of the very earliest HDD-containing players back in the day, and beat the ipod to market by about a year (December 2000 launch).
My first mp3 player was a 20GB archos xs202, which I loved. Partly for being a great music player, partly for being a generic 20GB external drive when needed. I think at one point I had it set up both as a music player and to boot debian on a host PC when connected via USB...
My first mp3 player was a 20GB archos xs202, which I loved. Partly for being a great music player, partly for being a generic 20GB external drive when needed. I think at one point I had it set up both as a music player and to boot debian on a host PC when connected via USB...
I remember I had one called Pikaone Le Stick. No info on that brand anywhere, and what a stupid name tbh. Probably the exact same Chinese stuff as all the others, but hey it did work really well.
I remember thinking that people using iTunes to manage their music were complete idiots when you could simply drag and drop MP3 files into the drive. I still think that, to be honest.
I remember thinking that people using iTunes to manage their music were complete idiots when you could simply drag and drop MP3 files into the drive. I still think that, to be honest.
I wonder if it was the Creative Nomad [1] ... I had a Jukebox that had a 6GB spinning disk in it originally. Upgrading to a 20GB drive was the first real hackery thing I did with my old RedHat box. I had to buy an IDE converter too to move between the laptop connector to the desktop.
That was also when I learned what happens if you dd a Creative Nomad Jukebox system image onto your root partition while the machine is running. The RedHat install stayed stable for about 20 minutes before weird things started failing and eventually the whole thing just locked up. Remember kids, always check you dd out file path!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Nomad
That was also when I learned what happens if you dd a Creative Nomad Jukebox system image onto your root partition while the machine is running. The RedHat install stayed stable for about 20 minutes before weird things started failing and eventually the whole thing just locked up. Remember kids, always check you dd out file path!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Nomad
Looks like the 5th gen Ipod was the thing in 2005/2006, per wikipedia. Sounds like I graduated HS +/- a year or two of the author.
In that time frame... I was using sub-GB MP3 players, with MMC cards or maybe SD cards by that point. (I didn't have those massive multi-thousand song collections, so it was fine...)
Because I have pics saved in my personal folder, mine in high school/early college were:
- Classic 64MB w/ 128 MB memory card
- MPIO FL100, probably 2 or 3x bigger; I wore this on a belt holder
- Sandisk Sansa, the bulbous one, before later using some of the smaller ones. Probably still only 256 or 512 MB of built-in storage.
In that time frame... I was using sub-GB MP3 players, with MMC cards or maybe SD cards by that point. (I didn't have those massive multi-thousand song collections, so it was fine...)
Because I have pics saved in my personal folder, mine in high school/early college were:
- Classic 64MB w/ 128 MB memory card
- MPIO FL100, probably 2 or 3x bigger; I wore this on a belt holder
- Sandisk Sansa, the bulbous one, before later using some of the smaller ones. Probably still only 256 or 512 MB of built-in storage.
I loved my SanDisk Sansa. It had a specific category for audiobooks, and there were a lot of quality of life things - features that wouldn’t matter when you were listening to songs but that made listening to books on tape way better.
- If you held the fast forward button it would slowly increase the speed it fast forwarded. Not something that matters with a 2 minute song, but it really matters with an hour long audiobook section.
- If you went to listen to something else but then you came back to the audiobook, it would open with the section you’d been listening to highlighted, and if you selected it it would pick up where you’d left off. If you accidentally skipped forward you could back out, move back to the previous section, and it’d do the same thing - starting where you’d been.
- On top of that, you could add more storage with microSD cards!
- If you held the fast forward button it would slowly increase the speed it fast forwarded. Not something that matters with a 2 minute song, but it really matters with an hour long audiobook section.
- If you went to listen to something else but then you came back to the audiobook, it would open with the section you’d been listening to highlighted, and if you selected it it would pick up where you’d left off. If you accidentally skipped forward you could back out, move back to the previous section, and it’d do the same thing - starting where you’d been.
- On top of that, you could add more storage with microSD cards!
my son still occasionally uses my 20 year old Sansa in his car.
2005 is when I got a second-hand Sony Ericsson K750 phone that had been reflashed to the W800 Walkman phone firmware (the hardware was the same) and I started using my phone as my MP3 player. It was also my only usable digital camera (the other one was one of those terrible cheap RAM-based ones, and this had a really decent 2MP shooter). Really that device delineated the beginning of the convergence era for me.
My first MP3 player was the Creative MuVo. The storage part (actually, really everything but the battery holder) you could disconnect and use as a USB stick, which was also how you loaded music onto it. I (correctly) thought this was very cool.
I eventually did get an iPod, the one that was all capacitive touch buttons and wheel, the last one before the click wheel.
I eventually did get an iPod, the one that was all capacitive touch buttons and wheel, the last one before the click wheel.
The other thing that was great about the MuVo music players is that they all had tactile controls. I used to listen with them while riding my bicycle, and I could operate mine in any way I needed to with it still in my pocket: repeating a track, skipping a track, changing albums, toggling shuffle, etc.
It can’t be the Nomad. “No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame”
I have never seen a nomad and I know that line. The nomad was famous for it as far as I am concerned.
I have never seen a nomad and I know that line. The nomad was famous for it as far as I am concerned.
A few years back I went in to buy an Apple TV. Walked in, straight up to the Apple TV display, stood using it for a few mins, stood looking outwards towards the rest of the store, tried to make eye contact with any staff. No one paid any attention, staff happily chatting away to each other. I couldn't have looked more ready to buy without waving cash around.
Apple Store employees are definitely trained better than the average shop, but they are far from luxury.
Apple Store employees are definitely trained better than the average shop, but they are far from luxury.
The Apple TV at its most expensive is $150. I remember walking into high end stores like Burberry in my early twenties, seriously contemplating the cheapest items there and also being ignored except by security.
Some luxury brands will play hard to get, others will fawn over customers. Different people want different experiences. How expensive the item in the catalog might change the level of service, but the brand will use a similar playbook across the entire catalog.
This may be their thinking, but if so I feel that would be down to bad training.
In my experience the Apple TV skews hard towards those who have a lot of Apple products. It's priced far higher than the rest of that market. Most people buying an iPhone are buying a Fire stick or a cheap smart TV. I'd bet most people buying an Apple TV have an iPhone and a Mac.
It would be like going into a Burberry store and shopping for replacement buttons for your $3000 coat.
In my experience the Apple TV skews hard towards those who have a lot of Apple products. It's priced far higher than the rest of that market. Most people buying an iPhone are buying a Fire stick or a cheap smart TV. I'd bet most people buying an Apple TV have an iPhone and a Mac.
It would be like going into a Burberry store and shopping for replacement buttons for your $3000 coat.
I'd also imagine that Apple TV is a great entry point—especially given the relatively cheap price—into the ecosystem. It's like the modern equivalent of the iPod.
I wonder if they’d have acted any differently if you had actually waved cash around.
... or approached a human in a logo'd uniform and say, "Hello person. Can you help me, please?"
You know, like our parents and grandparents would have done at a store. With humans who shouldn't be beckoned by glaring while standing near a display.
You know, like our parents and grandparents would have done at a store. With humans who shouldn't be beckoned by glaring while standing near a display.
If your store requires keen customers to chase around after salespeople in order to buy something, it's doing something wrong.
Not at all. The only reason I ever go into an Apple Store is that I know I won’t get pressured to buy something. But I do replace my iPhone and my MacBook every few years, and on some level, the Apple Store being a relaxing environment to browse Apple products probably contributes to that. Apple isn’t trying to sell you a new laptop right here right now. They’re smarter than that.
Oh, I have no problem with salespeople being hands off, that would be my preference too. But once you've made a decision to buy something, they should be available.
I mean they are? It’s just that you might have to go and talk to one of the employees rather than waiting passively for them to come to you. I find it weird that people have an issue with that.
For non-apple people: is Private Use Area code point rendered as Apple logo on Apple devices.
I did try, kinda hard when they're standing around chatting to each other. Also the idea of interrupting their conversation is something I'm too British to truly consider.
Maybe I'm not American enough, but that experience sounds much more like luxury to me than having an employee bugging you to buy without you explicitly asking.
I visited a Dior boutique in Tokyo (the one facing an LVMH store), put my greasy fingers on a glass guardrail, and within 10 seconds an employee came with a spray to clean it. I apologized, he apologized back.
Actual luxury stores (like Dior or Vuitton) are absolutely profiling their visitors.
If you don't look like their typical customers (age, clothes, etc), you'll be mistreated or even sometimes kicked out as soon as you step in the store.
If you don't look like their typical customers (age, clothes, etc), you'll be mistreated or even sometimes kicked out as soon as you step in the store.
Really? Went in to Hermes store in Madrid and Dubai in shorts, t-shirt and slides, and I was treated with utmost respect. I was so under dressed in Madrid that my gf initially didn't want to accompany me.
Sounds like you dressed like a proper tourist.
Many high-end stores will train their workers to not profile their visitors, because these days that lame-bro in the flip flops might be a crypto billionaire.
Plus it's just good practice. Your job as a salesperson in a high-end store is to educate and inform, not to sell. With that level of clientele they're looking to buy - if not now then later.
The only people who should be profiling customers are LPOs.
Plus it's just good practice. Your job as a salesperson in a high-end store is to educate and inform, not to sell. With that level of clientele they're looking to buy - if not now then later.
The only people who should be profiling customers are LPOs.
Well I was wearing a middle class attire, and so was my cousin who was guiding me into enemy territory. Back then he was LVMH's financial director in Asia.
Just to be clear, you never actually spoke to one of the staff and said you'd like to purchase something?
Apple’s logic is not to put pressure on prospective customers. That means that they don’t have a policy to talk to everyone who walks in the door looking around. I don’t like it either, its disquieting. But I respect their logic.
I appreciate space when I go into a store when looking for something, but I also like having access to staff when needed without having to hunt them down. Unfortunately, most places like to go to one extreme or the other.
For something like an Apple TV, you can just walk up to the product, scan it with your phone, pay for it, and leave without any employee interaction. They're more interested in selling the things like iPhones, iPads, and Macs that require employee interaction.
The store I was in didn't have much on shelving, mostly just cables and third party accessories. No Apple TVs. This may have changed recently though.
The experience has definitely changed, mainly because of how crowded most Apple stores get. While all the devices are still in the open there is no way employees can offer a personalized experience to every shopper and wanderer. You have to now make a reservation for that.
I think it varies a lot by location - the store I live by now is a regional store but still offers walk-in for everything except Genius Bar appointments.
If you're buying a phone or Mac or watch or Vision, they seem happy to help you on the spot or tell you where to hang out until someone's avaiailable.
If you're buying a phone or Mac or watch or Vision, they seem happy to help you on the spot or tell you where to hang out until someone's avaiailable.
Over the past few years, even if the store is empty, you are more likely to be left alone.
It's sometimes difficult to find someone to let you buy something, even.
It's sometimes difficult to find someone to let you buy something, even.
Getting rid of the physical Genius Bar and physical specific checkout locations was the worst decision they ever made. Now people are just kind of randomly clumped around and there's no clear delineation between staff who are already busy and staff who can immediately take questions.
+1 for the mention of Zune. I started with a Zune, a bright green and brown one, then went to iPods. Like the author and their first Walmart MP3 player, my first MP3 player, my Zune, left a much bigger impression on me than all of my later iPods. I think there's an alternate history where Zune, with all of its weird personalization and oddness, won out over iPod's sleek luxury. In some ways I think that that alternate reality might have been a bit more fun.
iPods got out of the way and could be used in your pocket
I got a Zune and immediately realized MS had no idea why people liked the iPod
Different folks like different things, but I don't think a big menu of lowercase text is more fun than the iPod in any of its variations
I got a Zune and immediately realized MS had no idea why people liked the iPod
Different folks like different things, but I don't think a big menu of lowercase text is more fun than the iPod in any of its variations
That's reasonable. iPod was probably a better product overall, but I think Zune had more character. In Starcraft terms, I'd say that iPod was the pure Protoss and Zune was the primal Zerg. I guess I'd rather live on a Protoss world, but you can't deny that it'd be interesting to visit a Zerg one.
Great analogy! I still use my iPod, because for whatever reason the OG battery hasn't died even though it is a FireWire model. It also, shockingly, sounds WAY better with any pair of decent headphones than any of my AirPods including the Max.
Not a fair comparison since a wire will always have more bandwidth for fidelity, but the difference in listening experience on an old iPod vs a modern iPhone is so shocking I find that modern iPhone listening is like diet soda and is somewhat unfulfilling (I have Apple Lossless turned on, but the sound chip + low power of modern headphones + no wired connection... loses something)
I don't mean in a "vinyl is better" sense... I mean, everyone I've demo'd this to has looked at me with big eyes when they put the iPod on and listen to the same song vs. the same headphones plugged into a modern phone. It's weird, especially since the iPods of this era can't do anything close to Lossless... they're 160-192k AACs so the limited RAM cache can play a full song without pausing on an old iPod.
Not a fair comparison since a wire will always have more bandwidth for fidelity, but the difference in listening experience on an old iPod vs a modern iPhone is so shocking I find that modern iPhone listening is like diet soda and is somewhat unfulfilling (I have Apple Lossless turned on, but the sound chip + low power of modern headphones + no wired connection... loses something)
I don't mean in a "vinyl is better" sense... I mean, everyone I've demo'd this to has looked at me with big eyes when they put the iPod on and listen to the same song vs. the same headphones plugged into a modern phone. It's weird, especially since the iPods of this era can't do anything close to Lossless... they're 160-192k AACs so the limited RAM cache can play a full song without pausing on an old iPod.
The early iPods had _really good_ DACs. Do some reading up on on them.
Still do. The $10 USB-C dongle is better than many audiophile DACs. After all, it has a bigger R&D budget than the entire industry.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...
The trick here is that people just think whichever one is loudest sounds best. The iPod might be able to drive high-impedance headphones better than a phone too, since the phone is pretty limited there. You can always get an amp.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/r...
The trick here is that people just think whichever one is loudest sounds best. The iPod might be able to drive high-impedance headphones better than a phone too, since the phone is pretty limited there. You can always get an amp.
But I have this dongle, the exact R&D budget one you discuss, and the iPod side by side with the same song loaded (except the iPhone has way higher resolution, as menitoned the iPod is under 256kbps).
The iPod isn't louder, but it has sounds in the music and a breathiness and real, moving sensation that my recent iPhones with lightning or USB to 3.5 adapters haven't had. It's hard to explain unless you listen side by side, and now I sound like an audiophile but I am far from it - the ears just don't lie and the old iPod really had amazing sound.
The iPod isn't louder, but it has sounds in the music and a breathiness and real, moving sensation that my recent iPhones with lightning or USB to 3.5 adapters haven't had. It's hard to explain unless you listen side by side, and now I sound like an audiophile but I am far from it - the ears just don't lie and the old iPod really had amazing sound.
That does "sound" like impedance mismatch, which is kind of like an electrical incompatibility with the headphones. The usual effect is low volume but it's not that necessarily. A headphone amp would help.
Try planar magnetic headphones, they're very easy to drive with anything and you'll definitely hear more than you have before. They have a very strange and noticeable "plucked" sound though, like things that are supposed to reverb don't.
The very best and easiest to drive headphones are electrostatic earspeakers which, uh, you can't afford and neither can I. But I have some Stax ones from the 60s with absolutely terrible construction that sound great anyway.
Try planar magnetic headphones, they're very easy to drive with anything and you'll definitely hear more than you have before. They have a very strange and noticeable "plucked" sound though, like things that are supposed to reverb don't.
The very best and easiest to drive headphones are electrostatic earspeakers which, uh, you can't afford and neither can I. But I have some Stax ones from the 60s with absolutely terrible construction that sound great anyway.
Thanks for the tip and for helping me understand what might be causing this! I wondered if the original iPods had more power output or something.
The headphones in question were cheap Koss Porta Pro Classics, and they appear to have a 60 Ohm impedance. That seems somewhat normal, but would that stand out to you?
If you've never tried the Porta Pros, they're the best bang/buck I've ever found for headphones.
The headphones in question were cheap Koss Porta Pro Classics, and they appear to have a 60 Ohm impedance. That seems somewhat normal, but would that stand out to you?
If you've never tried the Porta Pros, they're the best bang/buck I've ever found for headphones.
60 Ohm is a bit high. I think typical portable headphones are around 16-32 Ohm.
I got a chance to look up some links[1]. The older iPods - through version 5.5 - have Wolfson DACs which have a "warm sound signature" that a lot of people like.
[1] e.g. https://www.macintoshhowto.com/ipod/which-ipod-has-the-best-...
[1] e.g. https://www.macintoshhowto.com/ipod/which-ipod-has-the-best-...
Thank you, I definitely can tell a difference. I found the 2nd Gen (moving physical wheel) iPod to be decent, the 3rd gen (glowing buttons) to be incredible quality, the 4th Gen (non-moving click wheel) to be somewhere inbetween.
The Apple Store used to be the embodiment of everything I didn't have when I was growing up - status, the lives the people in the sample pictures had, any sort of individual money or agency - now I have an Apple Store in walking distance and can buy whatever I want. It's a nice shift, even though I still don't have the life those actors in the sample pictures or Apple ads have.
> even though I still don't have the life those actors in the sample pictures or Apple ads have
(nobody does -- don't forget there are bounce lights and 20 people just out of frame...)
(nobody does -- don't forget there are bounce lights and 20 people just out of frame...)
if TikTok is any indication it is the typical life of a Google engineer
It’s wild how things change, right? When I started using leadsapp, I realized small steps can add up to real progress. Having access so close makes a difference, even if the big picture feels far off.
> It's a shame I cannot remember what brand it was! I remember the iPod because it was a luxury good, but I think I owe that old Walmart MP3 player a lot more.
Indeed. My first portable music player was a walkman, not a sony I think, but anyway, a portable cassette tape player.. I made my own mixtapes from other tapes, cd's and ozzy ossbournes "bark at the moon" vinyl.
The next device was a portable CD player, I got a CD burner quite early on, damn, at that point in time, my harddrive was only maybe two hundred megabytes larger than a cd.. But it was good, I could do (sometimes less than perfect) cd-to-cd copies, and when I got MP3 files, I started being able to fit enough songs on the harddrive to make mix-cds..
The next device was my last portable music player, it was a "King" brand "mp4" player, which was a, still, tiny little 512 mib flash based device with some hardware buttons and an early oled color display.. I still have it, I don't use it too often, because I almost never need this type of device anymore, I listen to CDs in the card and at home I listen to CDs, vinyl and flac.. and at work it's a "hifi" headphone setup.
Indeed. My first portable music player was a walkman, not a sony I think, but anyway, a portable cassette tape player.. I made my own mixtapes from other tapes, cd's and ozzy ossbournes "bark at the moon" vinyl.
The next device was a portable CD player, I got a CD burner quite early on, damn, at that point in time, my harddrive was only maybe two hundred megabytes larger than a cd.. But it was good, I could do (sometimes less than perfect) cd-to-cd copies, and when I got MP3 files, I started being able to fit enough songs on the harddrive to make mix-cds..
The next device was my last portable music player, it was a "King" brand "mp4" player, which was a, still, tiny little 512 mib flash based device with some hardware buttons and an early oled color display.. I still have it, I don't use it too often, because I almost never need this type of device anymore, I listen to CDs in the card and at home I listen to CDs, vinyl and flac.. and at work it's a "hifi" headphone setup.
I’ve just finished reading Walter Isaacson’s biography of Steve Jobs. His vision was extraordinary, recognising that even the design of the stores was integral to the product itself. Every layer of engineering was deeply intertwined with aesthetic design. I’ve always shared that belief, but I’m now fully committed to pursuing it without compromise in my own products. It’s proving even more challenging than I’d imagined to make highly technical things feel simple and intuitive for users.
I was recently thinking the exact same thing as the author here; as a teen I got my ipod and instantly respected the graceful design and felt shocked how shoddy my previous cheap mp3 player was in comparison.
I am also convinced that he was fully responsible for keeping Apple on this path and that it is almost impossible to stop others from diluting the craftsmanship towards mediocrity as the group size grows. Big CEOs get labelled as greedy exploiters in a single brushstroke by people who don’t seem to care to read up.
I was recently thinking the exact same thing as the author here; as a teen I got my ipod and instantly respected the graceful design and felt shocked how shoddy my previous cheap mp3 player was in comparison.
I am also convinced that he was fully responsible for keeping Apple on this path and that it is almost impossible to stop others from diluting the craftsmanship towards mediocrity as the group size grows. Big CEOs get labelled as greedy exploiters in a single brushstroke by people who don’t seem to care to read up.
> We were fascinated with the Apple store in the mall because it was essentially an interactive luxury goods store where they'd let you actually grasp all the luxury goods with your teenager hands.
The secret being, of course, that they're not actually luxury goods. Like many things at the mall, it's a high-margin doodad sold to people in the proverbial impulse aisle of life. Dippin' Dots, knock-off watches, Build-A-Bear workshop - all in same vein of "looks expensive but is cheap to make" no different from the iPod.
I think the American shopping mall is one of the things that helped me contextualize Apple's brand identity. Apple does good marking in isolation or on a screen, SF Pro looks very stunning and the Apple logo is chic and simple. But so is the Cartier logo. And the Rolex storefront. Or any of the other genuinely valuable things sold at malls. It's the marketing that people respond to, not the value of a good.
The secret being, of course, that they're not actually luxury goods. Like many things at the mall, it's a high-margin doodad sold to people in the proverbial impulse aisle of life. Dippin' Dots, knock-off watches, Build-A-Bear workshop - all in same vein of "looks expensive but is cheap to make" no different from the iPod.
I think the American shopping mall is one of the things that helped me contextualize Apple's brand identity. Apple does good marking in isolation or on a screen, SF Pro looks very stunning and the Apple logo is chic and simple. But so is the Cartier logo. And the Rolex storefront. Or any of the other genuinely valuable things sold at malls. It's the marketing that people respond to, not the value of a good.
I largely agree with you, but I think one of Apple’s secret sauces (and they aren’t the only one) is that while their products are to some marketed as luxury items, they are in fact coupled with extremely high utility which is a somewhat new concept, in my view.
The iPhone or your equivalent Android device truly is one of the most useful inventions humanity has ever created, especially for the era that we currently exist in.
The iPhone or your equivalent Android device truly is one of the most useful inventions humanity has ever created, especially for the era that we currently exist in.
Smartphone hardware is almost completely useless because of the software. At this point it's pretty obvious that the potential (but unrealizable) utility is just more of the luxury illusion they're selling.
I’m genuinely curious what your view on the unrealized potential is! I would love something new to hack on.
It's a social problem not a technical one.
I think it is the lack of a non-touch keyboard, not a social problem.
I have an Android phone with a physical keyboard and it is a totally different mindset when you can "check in" and communicate with the device/through the device without constantly checking/fixing the touchscreen/dictation errors.
I have an Android phone with a physical keyboard and it is a totally different mindset when you can "check in" and communicate with the device/through the device without constantly checking/fixing the touchscreen/dictation errors.
Great! The fun thing about social problems is that you, yourself, can make routines and picky-preferences in life to avoid most of them for yourself! You could start today by taking away HackerNews from your routine - as well as other platforms and sites that perpetuate behaviors that meet your criticisms.
If you do, you'll find that you'll stop feeling the need to project your scorn for the things you voluntarily surround yourself with!
If you do, you'll find that you'll stop feeling the need to project your scorn for the things you voluntarily surround yourself with!
Yeah I actually don't own a smartphone at all. I don't know why you think I shouldn't talk about them after making that decision though.
Well, with that in mind, have you noticed the problems you speak about going down in life? Was I right about the core of what a social problem is - and how it can be fixed?
You're 100% correct to talk about your criticisms still, but you read as if it was still a problem in your everyday life, so I gave a suggestion more apt to that scenario. It didn't translate well, I apologize!
You're 100% correct to talk about your criticisms still, but you read as if it was still a problem in your everyday life, so I gave a suggestion more apt to that scenario. It didn't translate well, I apologize!
In my pocket, I have a wallet, timer, alarm clock, calculator, telephone, atlas, directory, camera, stock broker, flashlight, tape measure, television, music collection, encyclopedia, transit time table, library, notepad, and translator. How are these utilities an illusion?
The few among those things that even reliably function are covered in ads and defects to the degree that you're better off without them.
The illusion is that you're getting a computer and not a collection of knickknacks and appliances.
The illusion is that you're getting a computer and not a collection of knickknacks and appliances.
Almost none of those things have ads on the iPhone. All of them function reliably.
I mean, you're getting advertisements in your iWallet.. so...
I'm not as that was US only but yes that was outrageous and hopefully never happens again.
I regularly notice bugs when using iOS Mail; one that springs to mind would display one email's body with the header info from another email, it seems to have recently been fixed but was easily reproducible for weeks if not months.
> covered in ads and defects to the degree that you're better off without them
Someone is deluded, and it's either all of the people using these apps despite being worse off due to doing so... or it's you. (And we're talking about actual utility apps, not something that you could dismiss as a dopamine trap.)
Someone is deluded, and it's either all of the people using these apps despite being worse off due to doing so... or it's you. (And we're talking about actual utility apps, not something that you could dismiss as a dopamine trap.)
Firstly it's all very intentionally coupled together. There are strict rules around how the UI and notifications are used specifically so that they can sell your attention.
Secondly I think the only thing I really miss that's particular to smartphones is the map. Everything else is either a dumb gimmick or actually bad and all of it is to just get you're attention so they can sell it.
Secondly I think the only thing I really miss that's particular to smartphones is the map. Everything else is either a dumb gimmick or actually bad and all of it is to just get you're attention so they can sell it.
If you don't want notifications you can just turn them off.
Outside of urban centers, the only other device that is similarly valuable is a car, but the average American new car purchase costs 65 times the average American new phone purchase. While there is obviously a lot of nuance here, this makes phones feel downright cheap (or conversely, cars downright expensive) compared to imparted value.
> the average American new car purchase costs 65 times the average American new phone purchase
and you keep a phone 1-8 years but a car 3-20 years or 4x as long? seems like a bad ratio
and you keep a phone 1-8 years but a car 3-20 years or 4x as long? seems like a bad ratio
> while their products are to some marketed as luxury items, they are in fact coupled with extremely high utility which is a somewhat new concept, in my view.
Well, a Rolex has extremely high utility too. It's just that it has much less utility than a digital watch you can buy for $23 from Casio. The purpose of spending the other $59,477 [ https://www.rolex.com/en-us/watches/sky-dweller/m336935-0008 ] is just that you can say you did.
Apple products are similar. They have high utility that is nevertheless not as high as competing products that are much cheaper. All of the value is coming from the luxury branding.
Well, a Rolex has extremely high utility too. It's just that it has much less utility than a digital watch you can buy for $23 from Casio. The purpose of spending the other $59,477 [ https://www.rolex.com/en-us/watches/sky-dweller/m336935-0008 ] is just that you can say you did.
Apple products are similar. They have high utility that is nevertheless not as high as competing products that are much cheaper. All of the value is coming from the luxury branding.
I don’t agree at all. Neither is Rolex high utility, nor is anyone fooled that an analog watch which sets you back 3-4 orders of magnitude more than digital/smart watches should be higher utility.
Products competing directly with Apple products offer, at best, equivalent utility and performance for no more than 1 magnitude cost difference. Flagship android phones have cost about the same as iPhones for the better part of a decade and macbooks are often price competitive with a similarly specced ultra books. It’s understood that cheaper phones and laptops have similar utility for the average user, but some aspect of performance or quality is often a tradeoff.
Products competing directly with Apple products offer, at best, equivalent utility and performance for no more than 1 magnitude cost difference. Flagship android phones have cost about the same as iPhones for the better part of a decade and macbooks are often price competitive with a similarly specced ultra books. It’s understood that cheaper phones and laptops have similar utility for the average user, but some aspect of performance or quality is often a tradeoff.
Rolex is not high utility, it is harsh environment. Real Antarctic expeditions, mountaineering, pre-GPS flight and navigation, SCUBA diving, sea navigation, desert navigation, etc. You could rely on your Rolex not to be the component that fails and gets you killed or lost.
Of course, like the SUV, often it's actual use case is a far cry from what it is actually capable of doing.
Of course, like the SUV, often it's actual use case is a far cry from what it is actually capable of doing.
Except mechanical watches fail all the time. The sapphire glass shatters, or a strong impact disrupts the movement, or a user doesn't screw down the crown and water enters the device. They require expensive regular services.
Rolex has a long history of being a tool watch, and mechanical watches can be used in a lot of neat ways, but I would never want to depend on one in a life or death situation without fully understanding a backup plan.
Rolex has a long history of being a tool watch, and mechanical watches can be used in a lot of neat ways, but I would never want to depend on one in a life or death situation without fully understanding a backup plan.
Rolex may have historically been a tool watch, but nowadays it seems more of a watch for tools.
You don't think it's useful to know what time it is? Where does "Rolex is not high utility" come from?
That comment has a typical HN form: agree with the parent poster, but make an unnecessary, arbitrary new distinction so that you’re acceptably argumentative.
In the modern context, no. At least not from a watch. The parent offers a number of applications where timekeeping can be critical, but even when the Casio came out there were likely more functional alternatives to even the cheapest Rolex (a piece of jewelry).
Nice, now please do you have anything to say about the $1000 monitor stand?
I don’t believe there is any product that is functionally equivalent to the iPhone while being much cheaper.
All of the cheaper options make pretty significant trade offs. Ones that you might not care about, but that others do.
The same can’t be said for a Rolex where the much cheaper options are better in every way other than flexing.
All of the cheaper options make pretty significant trade offs. Ones that you might not care about, but that others do.
The same can’t be said for a Rolex where the much cheaper options are better in every way other than flexing.
I feel like you're saying something like,"That expensive painting is inferior in every way to wallpaper, which covers the wall more effectively and durably, at a fraction of the cost."
The Rolex (or luxury watches in general) are pieces of jewellery that also tell the time. The more expensive ones have some combination of -more expensive materials -better finishing -superior craftsmanship (including more intricate complications)
The goal is not just to tell the time, it's to wear a piece of artistic craftsmanship. (Though I would agree that other brands are a better example than Rolex, and some people do indeed just buy expensive watches in general and Rolex in particular just to flex. As some do with art.)
The Rolex (or luxury watches in general) are pieces of jewellery that also tell the time. The more expensive ones have some combination of -more expensive materials -better finishing -superior craftsmanship (including more intricate complications)
The goal is not just to tell the time, it's to wear a piece of artistic craftsmanship. (Though I would agree that other brands are a better example than Rolex, and some people do indeed just buy expensive watches in general and Rolex in particular just to flex. As some do with art.)
Apple products have intensely overengineered insides that are (single-digit) years ahead of the competition in performance and security. Giving them that high margins causes engineers to do enough work to keep up.
It's like how Google is pointlessly overengineered even though literally nothing they do affects revenue since they're a monopoly.
It's like how Google is pointlessly overengineered even though literally nothing they do affects revenue since they're a monopoly.
Regardless of your argument and I do mostly agree with it, I do think that most things referred to “Luxury Goods” are, in fact, the ”high-margin doodads” you are referring to. At least colloquially, things like Chanel perfume and Luis Vuitton are exactly what you describe, and by most people’s definition, “luxury goods”. (I did not downvote, but notice you have been. I suspect it’s mostly the Apple Army aha)
Kind of a counterpoint?: they weren't luxury, but they were higher-end. Newer tech, more metal... I didn't have an ipod in this timeframe (got a 2nd gen iPod touch in 2009), so instead had a half dozen cheap, plasticky, LCD, low-storage MP3 players.
> SF Pro looks very stunning and the Apple logo is chic and simple. But so is the Cartier logo. And the Rolex storefront. Or any of the other genuinely valuable things sold at malls.
If you're against the idea of selling things that are cheap to make at high prices by relying on branding, you might not want to call Cartier or Rolex products "genuinely valuable". Jewelry is not fundamentally expensive.
If you're against the idea of selling things that are cheap to make at high prices by relying on branding, you might not want to call Cartier or Rolex products "genuinely valuable". Jewelry is not fundamentally expensive.
It had been a while since I worked in a business adjacent to jewelry, but at the time the notion was that for a brand like Cartier or Tiffany, the precious metal/stones account for 10% of the selling price.
What was the business adjacent to jewelry?
The company I worked for offered a platform for investments in (fully allocated) gold. They launched a spin-off[1] for 24k jewels, priced at spot gold price*jewel weight, plus a fixed and known margin in percentage. I worked on the e-commerce for it.
[1] https://mene.com
[1] https://mene.com
I don't buy this argument at all.
Apple stuff has always been expensive, yes, but it's not "luxury". You get what you pay for. Apple products are the best in their category, despite the surprisingly organized hate machine that has existed forever.
Apple stuff has always been expensive, yes, but it's not "luxury". You get what you pay for. Apple products are the best in their category, despite the surprisingly organized hate machine that has existed forever.
Well, usually. There have been some absolute low-quality fiascos like the whole butterfly keyboard thing.
But one thing that really stuck with me was a few years back when I was making a spreadsheet of standard tech choices available for new employees for a startup, and almost all the Linux or Windows laptops out there that I could trust to last out of the box as long as a (non-butterfly-keyboard) Macbook had a baseline of 1080p screens, with upcharges just to get to 1440p. It might be better these days, but I felt like I was taking crazy pills just trying to find a certain baseline of quality for tech that would be getting used all the time every day.
But one thing that really stuck with me was a few years back when I was making a spreadsheet of standard tech choices available for new employees for a startup, and almost all the Linux or Windows laptops out there that I could trust to last out of the box as long as a (non-butterfly-keyboard) Macbook had a baseline of 1080p screens, with upcharges just to get to 1440p. It might be better these days, but I felt like I was taking crazy pills just trying to find a certain baseline of quality for tech that would be getting used all the time every day.
It feels almost like there’s this weird game that laptop manufacturers are playing to find something to skimp on with their models. Might be the screen, the screen’s antiglare coating, keyboard/chassis flex, input device quality, port placement, cooling capability, noise, maybe something else entirely, but it’s almost a rule that some aspect of the laptop must suck. Even the best reviewed models out there have some more-than-papercut flaws.
Screens have gotten better thankfully, but now the thing is to use screen panels that are only practically usable at 1.5x/150% UI scaling for some reason. It’s better than being stuck with those horrid 1366x768 TN panels that used to plague laptops, but it’s still more annoying than panels that can do integer scaling well. Given the choice between 1.5x panel and its 1x decent resolution counterpart, I’d actually prefer the latter just because it’s less trouble.
Screens have gotten better thankfully, but now the thing is to use screen panels that are only practically usable at 1.5x/150% UI scaling for some reason. It’s better than being stuck with those horrid 1366x768 TN panels that used to plague laptops, but it’s still more annoying than panels that can do integer scaling well. Given the choice between 1.5x panel and its 1x decent resolution counterpart, I’d actually prefer the latter just because it’s less trouble.
Are you arguing that luxury is in the cost of production, rather than the quality of the product?
It is interesting that the slickness of Apple products now kind of just shuts down any curiosity about the inner workings. They attempt to look like monolithic alien technology and they'd rather you not take them apart, despite the origins of the company being in serving that exact type of person. Bring back translucent tech!
ArchOS MP3 player. Jukebox. Back before the big companies (Creative) discovered the concept.
https://www.amazon.com/Archos-Jukebox-6000-Player-Drive/dp/B...
https://www.amazon.com/Archos-Jukebox-6000-Player-Drive/dp/B...
I remember the Apple store in my local area being the most elegant of the available stores, well lit and surrounded with glass windows, being exceptionally clean inside and always busy. The staff were well dressed and the atmosphere pleasant.
I ventured inside a few times to checkout the latest technological offerings of Apple, and was impressed. None of the sales staff ever approached me, but I was able to afford the devices, despite perhaps being dressed as though I couldn't. The irony is that even some of the poorest people in the UK I see walking around with iPhones and their children use iPads.
I never purchased or owned an Apple device to this day, but I did appreciate the well built hardware and snappy software.
I ventured inside a few times to checkout the latest technological offerings of Apple, and was impressed. None of the sales staff ever approached me, but I was able to afford the devices, despite perhaps being dressed as though I couldn't. The irony is that even some of the poorest people in the UK I see walking around with iPhones and their children use iPads.
I never purchased or owned an Apple device to this day, but I did appreciate the well built hardware and snappy software.
Loved the honesty of this line
> Part of my brain was saying "this place is bullshit and I use it to clown on the staff," and part of my brain was saying "I want the luxury good!! and I am going to purchase it now."
> Part of my brain was saying "this place is bullshit and I use it to clown on the staff," and part of my brain was saying "I want the luxury good!! and I am going to purchase it now."
>because it was the thing that got me into media piracy, and led me to install Linux on an old laptop, which I used exclusively for media piracy
I feel a lot of us have similar stories.
I feel a lot of us have similar stories.
Was it the rio mp3 player?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300
I got this in 1999... So it might not fit your exact timeframe.
My friend put Tupac's Changes song on there. That wasn't my first mp3 but it was the first on a pocket sized device.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_PMP300
I got this in 1999... So it might not fit your exact timeframe.
My friend put Tupac's Changes song on there. That wasn't my first mp3 but it was the first on a pocket sized device.
> an interactive luxury good
Apple hired Ahrendts in 2013 to head its retail efforts. She previously led Burberry, where she transformed the brand into a global luxury icon.
Before Ahrendts, Steve Jobs brought in Ron Johnson in 2000 to lead the retail revamp. Johnson, had experience at Target.
Apple hired Ahrendts in 2013 to head its retail efforts. She previously led Burberry, where she transformed the brand into a global luxury icon.
Before Ahrendts, Steve Jobs brought in Ron Johnson in 2000 to lead the retail revamp. Johnson, had experience at Target.
> When I was in high school, my friends and I had a game we used to play at the mall: we would go into the Apple store and try to make it to the back wall of the store, touch it, and exit out the front without an Apple staff person talking to us.
Idk if this is about age or sex or location but in Apple Stores in Asia I play another fun game: just stand and wait until anybody talks to me. Could take 20+ minutes no problems. I play on my phone or I try to stare down staff but they chat among themselves and make sure to not accidentally look.
If the store has only one entrance and there is unoccupied staff, they sometimes assault me with questions when I enter. But even in those stores as soon as I browsed and made a choice and ready to buy they vanish magically!
Idk if this is about age or sex or location but in Apple Stores in Asia I play another fun game: just stand and wait until anybody talks to me. Could take 20+ minutes no problems. I play on my phone or I try to stare down staff but they chat among themselves and make sure to not accidentally look.
If the store has only one entrance and there is unoccupied staff, they sometimes assault me with questions when I enter. But even in those stores as soon as I browsed and made a choice and ready to buy they vanish magically!
My first Mac was before the Apple Store. Got it at a CompUSA Apple department. Still a magical experience to see a bunch of Macs gathered together in the same place.
It's wild how a dumb little gadget from Walmart could quietly steer your whole trajectory, while the shiny luxury item just left a more photogenic memory
Best mp3 player I ever had was the SanDisk sansa clip. Just loaded music off an ad card and weight almost nothing. Worked great.
I wish even one thing I use everyday were as nice as a Sansa Clip+. Solid yet lightweight thick plastic with indestructible buttons.
I can imagine that sprinting out of an Apple store in the US would work out better for some people than others...
I did see someone carried out of an Apple Store by four security guards (one on each limb). He had been ranting in the store about open source. I guess he probably posts here.
We had the same game in high school, except for a clothing retailer. The Apple Store didn’t exist yet.
The more redneck version of this I did as a kid was capture the flag in Walmart
As recently as I've been in an apple store, the goods were out for people to touch.
Steve Jobs would have loved this story.
oh man I am so old
Reads like a confession of a deprogrammed cult member, and probably is.
I was looking at a 17” PowerBook, salivating at the screen and performance but struggling with justifying the price tag. An incredibly nice lady walked up to me and asked if I had any questions. I told her I was thinking it over as it was a large purchase. She beamed and said “Of course, that’s totally understandable. In fact it takes on average 3 visits to an Apple Store before making a purchase”. It was the smartest, nicest, most low key way of saying don’t feel pressure…you’ll be coming back, and then you’ll buy the machine you’ve always wanted.
Very on brand. And surprisingly still not really copied by others.