Yeah, I feel that pain when browsing PHPbb-style forums and reading mailing lists, but the 4chan/2chan/futaba UI solved this problem over a decade ago.[1] Each post has an associated number, and clicking it inserts a >>[post number] link into your comment. You can then hover over the >>links in any post to see a floating preview of the post in question, or click the link to be taken to the post directly. Any links to your posts have (You) next to them to make it easier to know when someone is replying to you. At the top of every post is a link to every post that linked to it. In addition, if you're replying to a large post, or one that contained multiple side conversations in it, it's common courtesy to include a small literal quote under the quote link.
Put it all together and a typical thread might look something like this:
Anonymous No. 1 Replies: >>2, >>3
I like posting here a lot better than posting on Hacker news.
Anonymous No. 2
For what reason, >>1_(You)?
Bob Saget No. 3 Replies: >>4
>>1_(You)
I don't really like multi-threaded discussion models either. Way too hard for me to follow.
Anonymous No. 4
>>3
>I don't really like multi-threaded discussion models either. Way too hard for me to follow.
I strongly disagree, you are stupid.
With this system, I find it very easy to navigate anything from month-long threads with medium to large sized posts and very linear conversations, to threads that last a few hours and accumulate hundreds of small to medium sized posts that span dozens of simultaneous conversations.
>I also like the way Reddit notifies you of replies. It helps you avoid missing replies in the mess of a large thread.
4chan has a few similar systems. You can set a thread to automatically update every few seconds, or you can "watch" a thread so that even if you close the tab, you can see when new posts arrive. Also, in addition to the (You) next to links to your posts, when a thread updates, any posts that link to your posts are colored differently until you scroll past them. So these systems make it easy to follow entire threads in progress, not just the people directly talking to you.
I totally get that 4chan and company are not everyone's thing, but I don't understand why very few sites that aren't already 2chan or futaba clones borrow elements from its design. They're very usable while being minimalistic and low-tech; even without javascript and most of the goodies I mentioned disabled, its still very easy to use. Meanwhile, web forums are huge and clunky and filled to the brim with verbatim block quotes and obnoxious avatars, the average mailing list email is an enormous email quote followed by a single line of commentary, etc...
I don't think you can fix these problems without totally changing the way HN works. The "News" in "Hacker News" means that current topics will always be prioritized over a long term discussion, pushing relatively healthy topics off the front page. The threaded Reddit-esque conversation model makes it incredibly painful to follow any modest conversation or even just read them after the fact. That comments are ranked in addition to this, unlike a mailing list, just makes it even harder to follow, because everything is constantly jumping around the page. The upvote system gets into your subconscious; as much as I tell myself that the points don't mean anything, it's hard not to feel bad when your highest rated comments are snarky one liners and the ones you actually put some time into rarely get any. Sometimes I find myself spending 15+ minutes writing a comment just to delete it because it "isn't good enough," despite being relevant to the thread and possibly helpful. We pay lip service to the benefits of long form writing and thoughtful conversation on a site that is designed to bury them.
The Reddit discussion model is completely oriented towards providing the fast food of news commentary, where your enjoyment of the first look you take at a comment page is prioritized over active participation. That's great if you're trying to attach ads to pictures of cats, but if you're trying to have a real conversation, it just gets in the way. I can read, I don't need an algorithm to tell me which comments are notable and which ones are junk. If I see a troll post on any other site, I don't seize up and have an aneurism, I just scroll past it.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I can easily follow 50+ page PHPbb threads that drag on for months or even years, or 4chan threads with hundreds of posts and more on the way every time you refresh, but a small conversation (in reality; I considered it huge by my HN standards) I had on here the other day with about 10 comments or so made my head spin. I wrote half the posts and it was still hard to follow! Oh, and of course, no one but the people I responded to will ever read the things I wrote hours after the thread dropped off the front page.
I think that the community, not the particulars of the software, is the reason for this site's success, and things would have turned out the same or better if it were a barebones BBS with a flat discussion model. You don't need complex ranking systems or update notifiers to browse those, you just need to be able to scroll down.
Put it all together and a typical thread might look something like this:
With this system, I find it very easy to navigate anything from month-long threads with medium to large sized posts and very linear conversations, to threads that last a few hours and accumulate hundreds of small to medium sized posts that span dozens of simultaneous conversations.
>I also like the way Reddit notifies you of replies. It helps you avoid missing replies in the mess of a large thread.
4chan has a few similar systems. You can set a thread to automatically update every few seconds, or you can "watch" a thread so that even if you close the tab, you can see when new posts arrive. Also, in addition to the (You) next to links to your posts, when a thread updates, any posts that link to your posts are colored differently until you scroll past them. So these systems make it easy to follow entire threads in progress, not just the people directly talking to you.
I totally get that 4chan and company are not everyone's thing, but I don't understand why very few sites that aren't already 2chan or futaba clones borrow elements from its design. They're very usable while being minimalistic and low-tech; even without javascript and most of the goodies I mentioned disabled, its still very easy to use. Meanwhile, web forums are huge and clunky and filled to the brim with verbatim block quotes and obnoxious avatars, the average mailing list email is an enormous email quote followed by a single line of commentary, etc...