Japan has a worrying number of virgins, government finds(independent.co.uk)
independent.co.uk
Japan has a worrying number of virgins, government finds
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/japan-has-a-worrying-number-of-virgins-government-finds-a7312961.html
101 comments
>it's worth noting that the government isn't actually worried about it. They're worried about fertility rates.
Except for Jesus, the two concepts are usually related.
Except for Jesus, the two concepts are usually related.
It is an important data point for creating policy for bumping fertility though.
For example would tax breaks for additional kids be less effective if people are not hooking up in the first place.
Yes, but virginity is an interesting part of the issue:
> Around 42 percent of men and 44.2 percent of women admitted that they were virgins
this seems quite high, although I haven't compared it to data from other countries. Are Japanese people having less sex? And if so, why?
> Around 42 percent of men and 44.2 percent of women admitted that they were virgins
this seems quite high, although I haven't compared it to data from other countries. Are Japanese people having less sex? And if so, why?
It's misleading wording in the article; that's actually the percentages of 18-34 year-olds not married or in a relationship.
I am not a Japan-expert but I remember seeing a documentary about young Japan couples renting sex-hotel rooms on hourly basis, because they have no other place to get intimate. It's quite hard to loose your virginity and get pregnant when your family is watching...
You are talking about love hotels. They are extremely common in Japan and they are really not a big deal. Almost all of them are perfectly clean and they are cheap as well (for Japanese standards); for less than the equivalent of $40 you can get a room.
People who are dating use them a lot. Because flats are usually quite small, it is sometimes more convenient to spend the night in a love hotel than going home. Married couples use love hotels from time to time in order to be able to make sex without having to worry about the noise, or about a kid interrupting.
The most important for Japanese society is convenience! ;)
People who are dating use them a lot. Because flats are usually quite small, it is sometimes more convenient to spend the night in a love hotel than going home. Married couples use love hotels from time to time in order to be able to make sex without having to worry about the noise, or about a kid interrupting.
The most important for Japanese society is convenience! ;)
>It's quite hard to loose your virginity and get pregnant when your family is watching..
A teenager in the US (or most other places for that matter) would have saved to rent a Waldorf Astoria suite if that was the only way to get their game on...
A teenager in the US (or most other places for that matter) would have saved to rent a Waldorf Astoria suite if that was the only way to get their game on...
Having relationship in Japan can be tough when a lot of people are under non-permanent employment which they would get paid less and is unstable. Even if one's lucky enough to have a stable job, there is a problem of practically mandatory overtime (which, incidentally, can be unpaid.)
Though, gap between ideal and reality is certainly a one of issues out there, but financial and time issues have a lot of impact to this problem.
Though, gap between ideal and reality is certainly a one of issues out there, but financial and time issues have a lot of impact to this problem.
This is the real issue, and it's where we're headed as well in the west. Unfortunately, we'll probably suffer through this completely avoidable problem because politicians are too beholden to business interests.
Their government trying to correct it but doing completely wrong. For instance, for overtime issues, they are trying to cut long hours but if they are already unpaid (and thus, untracked) it just won't work, rather it promotes even more of untracked unpaid overtime rather than eliminating unnecessary overtime.
What they need is real teeth against law breaking buinesses.
Some of Western countries have same problem as well, but Japan's cause for overtime can be tough one as it often carries mentality of management that is heavily process orientated.
What they need is real teeth against law breaking buinesses.
Some of Western countries have same problem as well, but Japan's cause for overtime can be tough one as it often carries mentality of management that is heavily process orientated.
With the two recent recession dips and the long slog of recovery that doesn't seem to have any real vigor, I think the west might already be on this trajectory instead of merely headed there.
Yes, see The strange case of the missing baby [2016]
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21697817-financi...
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21697817-financi...
Japan has a fertility rate of 1.41. Replacement rate is around 2.1 to maintain the population. Here's the world table.[1] Most of the developed world is below replacement rate. Most of Africa is above 4. India is at 2.51; China is at 1.55. Singapore is at the bottom at 0.8.
It's amazing to see that much variation between countries.
Maybe Japan shouldn't have cracked down on love hotels.
[1] http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=31
It's amazing to see that much variation between countries.
Maybe Japan shouldn't have cracked down on love hotels.
[1] http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=31
If I understand correctly, love hotels are mostly used for, let's just say "recreational" activities by singles.
The adult industry doesn't help increase the birth rate; it helps plummet it.
The adult industry doesn't help increase the birth rate; it helps plummet it.
Mortality rates in places like Africa are also much higher, and life spans are lower. The two seem inversely proportional.
[deleted]
> There was one clearly positive indicator in the survey: For the first time, the proportion of women returning to work after having their first child in Japan's once notoriously patriarchal society exceeded 50 percent.
In all seriousness, if the concern is low birthrates, how is the above a "clearly positive indicator"?
In all seriousness, if the concern is low birthrates, how is the above a "clearly positive indicator"?
Because women can be discouraged of having a children in fear of not being return to work afterward.
Implementations of maternity leaves are not very high in Japan -- this is coming from the work that histrically, they were expected to leave the work force when women are married.
Implementations of maternity leaves are not very high in Japan -- this is coming from the work that histrically, they were expected to leave the work force when women are married.
Who is going to take care of the baby?
Also, returning to work probably means no intention of having another baby any time soon.
Also, returning to work probably means no intention of having another baby any time soon.
If only there was an industry of trained professionals whose only job was taking care of children...
There is a serious shortage there, too. And even if working parents do have access to it, it won't go beyond usual hours (e.g. like 6PM) and it won't help them much if they are expected a lot longer than that.
Children need to be taken care of by their biological mothers, specially during the first two years of their lives.
Women, just like men, don't want to all be stay at home parents or pursue a career while being childless.
Quite a lot of people may be even most want both, so as a government you should make that possible. This indicates that the government might be succeeding at that.
Quite a lot of people may be even most want both, so as a government you should make that possible. This indicates that the government might be succeeding at that.
The concern expressed in this sentence is that of a patriarchal society.
The sentiment expressed in _your_ sentence is that of a radical feminist.
I'm not following at all - why the downvotes and political accusations?
The semantics of the quoted sentence clearly indicate that women going back to work is seen as a good thing (by the author; not necessarily my personal view) in the context of a "notoriously patriarchal society". It is clear that the author makes this point separately from the main concern of the article.
I don't even know how to interpret it differently, regardless of whether I agree.
The semantics of the quoted sentence clearly indicate that women going back to work is seen as a good thing (by the author; not necessarily my personal view) in the context of a "notoriously patriarchal society". It is clear that the author makes this point separately from the main concern of the article.
I don't even know how to interpret it differently, regardless of whether I agree.
What is concerning is this:
>Most people surveyed said they want to get married at some point.
This isn't delineated by gender, so I interpret it as meaning that Japanese men and women both want to get married -- but they aren't enough for each other.
>A booming industry surrounds Japan's growing condition of loneliness, a phenomenon at once quite particular to the Japanese, yet also a glimpse into a future where many people live atomized lives mediated exclusively through personal technology.
That modern philosophy tends to devalue (or rather not value) human relationships is the one thing I'm tempted to blame this on:
https://philosophyinseconds.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/the-...
But that is probably personal bias creeping up. Working hours are the popular explanation, but there is an incongruity: most Japanese claim to want to have relationships, so if they thought working hours were the problem then why haven't they complained? And how could they fail to notice something so obvious? If housing prices are the problem, how does this occur when Japan's population has been in decline for forty years?
I've heard of this phenomenon (and similar ones in Western Europe) and I pick up and discard economic explanations like bottles of some alcoholic beverage. But the alarm in the back of my head says that our culture is the problem, and it just happens to be popular in Japan. If that's the case, things will get worse, not better.
>Most people surveyed said they want to get married at some point.
This isn't delineated by gender, so I interpret it as meaning that Japanese men and women both want to get married -- but they aren't enough for each other.
>A booming industry surrounds Japan's growing condition of loneliness, a phenomenon at once quite particular to the Japanese, yet also a glimpse into a future where many people live atomized lives mediated exclusively through personal technology.
That modern philosophy tends to devalue (or rather not value) human relationships is the one thing I'm tempted to blame this on:
https://philosophyinseconds.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/the-...
But that is probably personal bias creeping up. Working hours are the popular explanation, but there is an incongruity: most Japanese claim to want to have relationships, so if they thought working hours were the problem then why haven't they complained? And how could they fail to notice something so obvious? If housing prices are the problem, how does this occur when Japan's population has been in decline for forty years?
I've heard of this phenomenon (and similar ones in Western Europe) and I pick up and discard economic explanations like bottles of some alcoholic beverage. But the alarm in the back of my head says that our culture is the problem, and it just happens to be popular in Japan. If that's the case, things will get worse, not better.
Is it wrong for me to see that devaluation of human relationship in your linked thesis as Marx's theory of alienation without the capitalist critique?
>The theoretic basis of alienation, within the capitalist mode of production, is that the worker invariably loses the ability to determine life and destiny, when deprived of the right to think (conceive) of themselves as the director of their own actions; to determine the character of said actions; to define relationships with other people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation
>The theoretic basis of alienation, within the capitalist mode of production, is that the worker invariably loses the ability to determine life and destiny, when deprived of the right to think (conceive) of themselves as the director of their own actions; to determine the character of said actions; to define relationships with other people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation
Housing prices are trivial to explain: urbanization is much faster than population decline. Housing in rural areas beyond the commute horizon (and outside of tourist zones) can be had for close to nothing just about everywhere on the planet, I'd be surprised if Japan was an exception.
This also explains why opening the doors to immigration is such an unattractive "solution" (quotes, because I refuse to consider taking a break from exponential population growth a problem) : immigration rarely comes without urbanization and even shrinking countries (or maybe especially them?) are still seeing growing cities, all the shrinkage is happening in the increasingly abandoned countryside. Thinking of this, it might not even be a new phenomenon: historically, non-urbanizing immigration was so rare that one would typically sideline the border-crossing aspect and just call them settlers, no matter where they came from.
This also explains why opening the doors to immigration is such an unattractive "solution" (quotes, because I refuse to consider taking a break from exponential population growth a problem) : immigration rarely comes without urbanization and even shrinking countries (or maybe especially them?) are still seeing growing cities, all the shrinkage is happening in the increasingly abandoned countryside. Thinking of this, it might not even be a new phenomenon: historically, non-urbanizing immigration was so rare that one would typically sideline the border-crossing aspect and just call them settlers, no matter where they came from.
> Japan's population has been in decline for forty years
Uh? Japans's population has stabilised during the last 15 years, and it was growing for the previous 25 years (like +15 millions).
Uh? Japans's population has stabilised during the last 15 years, and it was growing for the previous 25 years (like +15 millions).
And as hackers, are how are complicit in the creation of technology that either supplants human relationships, or morphs them into something less substantial than what existed beforehand?
Disclosure: I've been living in Japan for half a decade now.
There are a number of interplaying and compounding factors that are responsible for creating this situation. I will list a few in no particular order.
- The hours are absolutely insane. My partner rarely leaves her office before 10pm, and by the time she does, she is completely exhausted and unable to do anything other than hit the sack. This type of situation is extremely prevalent and generally affects both men and women. It is no wonder that young people have no time to socialize, go out and meet potential partners when they spend 90% of their waking hours working or otherwise subordinating to this insane work cult.
- Japan is a country of predefined roles and expectations, and at different ages people are fully expected to meet certain benchmarks and seamlessly transition into new roles. One such role is that of a provider, and men are expected to be able to become full-time breadwinners by the time they hit 30. With the economy being what it is and the traditional Japanese notion of lifetime employment being a thing of the past, a lot of men aren't able to live up to these expectations and simply drop out of the dating pool. Some of it is involuntary, since Japanese women tend to maintain very high expectations as to what a man needs to be able to provide.
- Sex is generally highly available and there are all kinds of parlors, services, salons, middlemen and clubs catering to both men and women. It's cheap, legal and safe, thereby creating a disincentive for people to attempt and engage in the old fashioned mating process. On top of that - and this is going to sound completely nuts to those who aren't familiar with the country - there are full-time gigolos, both foreign and domestic, whose only life goal seems to be getting as many notches as possible. They approach women on the street, in bookstores, train stations, malls, you name it. I know a few of these characters and many of them have notches in the 3 figure range and juggle up to 7 women at a time. It's all they ever do, and I suspect that they tie up a huge number of women at any given point in time. I can't say I've noticed the same phenomenon in any other country.
- The local culture isn't exactly touchy-feely and even when people date, it's something they do because it's what young people are supposed and expected to do, not because they like their partner or dating in particular. Just a curiosity I've noticed with many couples.
Obviously, the situation is very complex and cannot be explained with a simple narrative, but I hope this helps clarify things a little.
There are a number of interplaying and compounding factors that are responsible for creating this situation. I will list a few in no particular order.
- The hours are absolutely insane. My partner rarely leaves her office before 10pm, and by the time she does, she is completely exhausted and unable to do anything other than hit the sack. This type of situation is extremely prevalent and generally affects both men and women. It is no wonder that young people have no time to socialize, go out and meet potential partners when they spend 90% of their waking hours working or otherwise subordinating to this insane work cult.
- Japan is a country of predefined roles and expectations, and at different ages people are fully expected to meet certain benchmarks and seamlessly transition into new roles. One such role is that of a provider, and men are expected to be able to become full-time breadwinners by the time they hit 30. With the economy being what it is and the traditional Japanese notion of lifetime employment being a thing of the past, a lot of men aren't able to live up to these expectations and simply drop out of the dating pool. Some of it is involuntary, since Japanese women tend to maintain very high expectations as to what a man needs to be able to provide.
- Sex is generally highly available and there are all kinds of parlors, services, salons, middlemen and clubs catering to both men and women. It's cheap, legal and safe, thereby creating a disincentive for people to attempt and engage in the old fashioned mating process. On top of that - and this is going to sound completely nuts to those who aren't familiar with the country - there are full-time gigolos, both foreign and domestic, whose only life goal seems to be getting as many notches as possible. They approach women on the street, in bookstores, train stations, malls, you name it. I know a few of these characters and many of them have notches in the 3 figure range and juggle up to 7 women at a time. It's all they ever do, and I suspect that they tie up a huge number of women at any given point in time. I can't say I've noticed the same phenomenon in any other country.
- The local culture isn't exactly touchy-feely and even when people date, it's something they do because it's what young people are supposed and expected to do, not because they like their partner or dating in particular. Just a curiosity I've noticed with many couples.
Obviously, the situation is very complex and cannot be explained with a simple narrative, but I hope this helps clarify things a little.
IMO a decent solution to the low-birth-rate problem is not to try to hook up all the singles together, but rather encourage existing couples to have more children.
Make it socially acceptable and even desirable to have more children. Give incentives to working men who have more children.
Make it socially acceptable and even desirable to have more children. Give incentives to working men who have more children.
This seems wrong to me. This seems to go against the promotion of diversity, for the species and in thought.
If society is moving toward the idea that children aren't a 'benefit,' then having people who are 'willing' to have children have more just postpones the issue, instead of fixing the root cause.
If society is moving toward the idea that children aren't a 'benefit,' then having people who are 'willing' to have children have more just postpones the issue, instead of fixing the root cause.
Presumably, those who have children would pass their genes onto those children, and raise their children similar to how they were raised. Therefore, those children would be more likely to have children than the general population.
Perhaps the darker side that could be missed is that despite their demographic problem, Japan continues to refuse to let in more young foreigners in to help balance the demographics.
Japan isn't going to change in that regard anytime soon. They'd definitely rather have less Japanese people, and have them still be what they consider "Japanese" enough. Japan has many wonderful aspects to it, but the racism and nationalism are not part of them.
I remember reading an article about AirBnB breaking into Japan, where the local resistance wasn't the usual complaints of limiting the monthly rental supply therefore jacking up rental rates, but that AirBnB 'encouraged more foreigners to come here'. To get rid of foreigners, Japan puts up so many blocks and delays to permanent residency they hope you get the message and choose to leave.
They're not a culture that relishes saying "no" outright either, so what you're talking about can get intensely aggressive by way of a substitute for "no". For example, if someone in Japan tells you that something is, "Very difficult", they means it's about as likely as spontaneous, unpowered, human flight.
They don't want any random fix of their demographics where they just bring in young people of whatever nationality. They want a Japanese fix to their demographics.
If they viewed people as just interchangeable culturally, why even care about their falling demographics? Other Asian and Africans countries make up for them.
If they viewed people as just interchangeable culturally, why even care about their falling demographics? Other Asian and Africans countries make up for them.
> If they viewed people as just interchangeable culturally, why even care about their falling demographics? Other Asian and Africans countries make up for them.
Because they need young, employed people locally to provide services to all the retirees.
Because they need young, employed people locally to provide services to all the retirees.
That might be what they need (or could also use and is more readily available), but I wrote about what they want.
That's not exactly true.
Do you have a degree in some engineering and speak Japanese? You can get your visa in about 2 months. Actually, if you are a programmer you may not even need Japanese.
http://stackoverflow.com/jobs?location=Tokyo
Do you have a degree in some engineering and speak Japanese? You can get your visa in about 2 months. Actually, if you are a programmer you may not even need Japanese.
http://stackoverflow.com/jobs?location=Tokyo
Low birthrates, low marriage rates, sure that's a problem for a nation.
But I don't think virginity need be a problem. If one wants to wait until they meet their right partner why not? Data shows this leads to stronger bonds (though the causation is unknown and may be something like religion).
It's not like more premarital sex even correlates to higher birth rates. If fact for first world countries the correlation has been the inverse since the introduction of the pill in the 1960s.
I suspect child rearing is one of those things that mentally many consider to be a nuisance, but once it happens and there's a kid our emotions take significant hold and it becomes all important.
But I don't think virginity need be a problem. If one wants to wait until they meet their right partner why not? Data shows this leads to stronger bonds (though the causation is unknown and may be something like religion).
It's not like more premarital sex even correlates to higher birth rates. If fact for first world countries the correlation has been the inverse since the introduction of the pill in the 1960s.
I suspect child rearing is one of those things that mentally many consider to be a nuisance, but once it happens and there's a kid our emotions take significant hold and it becomes all important.
I suspect it isn't about the kids. Or even sex. I suspect it is about old people. The period of one's life during which one must take care of elderly parents and grandparents is growing. Many people of marrying age are in families with several elderly people to care for. They aren't free to move out and start their own households. If I am correct, the answer isn't more child care but more government-backed elder care.
It's probably the problem going forward than it is now. Although marrage age is increasingly older than ever, I don't think it is already to the point where large portion of people of marrying age are affected, let alone prevented to move out. Though, they are getting there, but there are a lot of direct financial and logistical impact with direct impacts.
> They aren't free to move out and start their own households
Why is that a problem? You don't need to live separately from your parents or grandparents in order to get married. Multi-generational households were the norm until very recently. Also, given that the elderly are much healthier now than in the past, they may not need as much care.
Why is that a problem? You don't need to live separately from your parents or grandparents in order to get married. Multi-generational households were the norm until very recently. Also, given that the elderly are much healthier now than in the past, they may not need as much care.
What is new is that the elder people now need a greater level of care, for a more protracted period. That's new. In the past people who couldn't care for themselves rarely lived more than a decade. Now it is not unusual for such a person to live many decades. It isn't everyone, nor all old people, but it is a rare family that doesn't have a grandparent in need of 24/7 presence. The primary carer then needs relief. So you've got at least two or three people who are not able to alter their living situations without 'abandoning' the elderly relative.
Conversely in china, some young women are not getting married because they do not want to be roped into caring for their in-laws too. One of my Chinese students admitted that she was desperate not to return to china after graduation for fear of being locked into caring for her grandmother. Should she marry here, she would then be under pressure to have her grandmother move in. Her goal was to stay single and in school as long as possible. It's harsh, but she didn't want to be married so long as her grandmother was still alive. Marriage to a Chinese boy would only compound the problem as he would likely be in the same boat.
Conversely in china, some young women are not getting married because they do not want to be roped into caring for their in-laws too. One of my Chinese students admitted that she was desperate not to return to china after graduation for fear of being locked into caring for her grandmother. Should she marry here, she would then be under pressure to have her grandmother move in. Her goal was to stay single and in school as long as possible. It's harsh, but she didn't want to be married so long as her grandmother was still alive. Marriage to a Chinese boy would only compound the problem as he would likely be in the same boat.
If you are already a virgin, don't you think it might be a difficult road to get to being a parent when your elderly parents are living with you in a tiny cramped house?
On the other hand, when the Japanese had more children, they also took care of elderly parents and maybe had even less space and privacy in their dwellings.
[deleted]
It would be interesting to hear the point of view from a Japanese on those numbers. How is the dating scene? Are those numbers surprising or matching with your own experiences?
According to 4/2chan posters from Japan it's all about money. Men are expected to have a career by age 30something and be set for a family, if they don't it's seen as shameful so they don't try to date. Too many low paying jobs, with fleeting job security, and no support for single women to raise a family.
Why is population decline from the current levels inherently bad again?
Because it kills the economy and forward momentum of a society, puts a huge burden on public health and other services, creates a elderly society with less "new blood" innovation in ideas and politics that stifles the (fewer) young people, and beyond some point it's not even reversible without the country falling many places in GDP and standards of living.
Population decline in general isn't necessarily bad. Demographics highly skewed towards old people are problematic though, and if nothing is killing off old people that's what you get when birth rates go down.
Is that a coincidence that this got upvoted just days after this came up?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504271
Those pixelated genitals are an unfortunate physical trait, and would certainly be a turn-off for me in any potential relationship
You obviously didn't grow up with a 1200 bit/s modem.
obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/598/
As opposed to Europe's solution, where they allow unrestricted immigration from volatile areas?
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12521883 and marked it off-topic.
"Allow"
Your alternative is to shoot them at the border, or film them while they drown at sea... and even that wouldn't work as well as you might hope. Just wait and see what the next few decades hold, it's going to make this recent wave of migration seem absolutely delightful by comparison.
We've made the implicit choice to live our lives in such a way that the AGW is going to make the places like Northern Africa utterly unlivable, and then we'll blame people for fleeing from it.
It's the typical tragicomedy of a species that has a collective memory of about 20 seconds.
Your alternative is to shoot them at the border, or film them while they drown at sea... and even that wouldn't work as well as you might hope. Just wait and see what the next few decades hold, it's going to make this recent wave of migration seem absolutely delightful by comparison.
We've made the implicit choice to live our lives in such a way that the AGW is going to make the places like Northern Africa utterly unlivable, and then we'll blame people for fleeing from it.
It's the typical tragicomedy of a species that has a collective memory of about 20 seconds.
The reason they are even at the border is that they are enticed by welfare in countries like Germany and Sweden. There are relatively rich nations with nobody at the border, like Saudi Arabia.
To the degree Africa is unlivable it's because of Africans and their high birthrate (but most of it is not unlivable at all, it's just that Europe is richer and you get free everything).
Either the EU closes its borders or immigration will be the end of Europe. Don't pretend you don't understand this.
To the degree Africa is unlivable it's because of Africans and their high birthrate (but most of it is not unlivable at all, it's just that Europe is richer and you get free everything).
Either the EU closes its borders or immigration will be the end of Europe. Don't pretend you don't understand this.
It's the end of Europe, brace yourselves. It's not going to help that many there share similar (wrong) beliefs about why Northern Africa is going to hell, so you'll waste time on draconian measures that won't help in the slightest.
I can understand the desire to feel like you have something in your control though, when the reality is so very different.
I can understand the desire to feel like you have something in your control though, when the reality is so very different.
Controlling the border is no problem at all. It's only a matter of will - just look at Israel.
So it only takes massive support from a superpower, being a tiny nation, building an actual wall and manning it, and spending an absolute fortune on defending it?
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/business/israel-shells-ou...
This just in... Europe is quite a bit larger than Israel, and composed of different sovereign nations.
This just in... Europe is quite a bit larger than Israel, and composed of different sovereign nations.
Life isn't fair.
Remember that when you're wondering why millions of people don't care if you want them where you live or not, because like it or not, fair or not, you don't get a say in it.
It's just gong to happen to you, because life isn't fair.
It's just gong to happen to you, because life isn't fair.
Yeah, how has that been working out for us? Other than losing money in a desert, what have we actually achieved?
If you want to stop the migration we're going to see in the coming decades, it won't be war, but wholesale slaughter. Frankly, that conflicts too strongly with our view of ourselves as good people.
Besides, war with whom? Tens of millions of people fleeing their homes? Are you going to go to war with migrants, or maybe you think bombing their homes a bit more will make them less likely to leave?
If you want to stop the migration we're going to see in the coming decades, it won't be war, but wholesale slaughter. Frankly, that conflicts too strongly with our view of ourselves as good people.
Besides, war with whom? Tens of millions of people fleeing their homes? Are you going to go to war with migrants, or maybe you think bombing their homes a bit more will make them less likely to leave?
I get plenty of say, its called the american electoral process.
First of all I assumed that you were European, since the only migrants from the Middle East and Africa we're getting here (US) are the few we're intentionally letting in. We have an ocean between us and them, and Europe is in the way with a lot more to offer frankly.
If you're American, your original comment was referring to the US immigration policy? That would make that original comment seriously misguided.
As to the basic point however that you can somehow vote someone into power who's going to change the reality of how the world is turning out... ha. Ha ha. Unless you're voting for someone who's literally talking about shooting people at the border and letting them drown at sea, you're falling for someone's lies because you desperately want to believe them.
Then I'd ask why you're so desperate to believe them.
If you're American, your original comment was referring to the US immigration policy? That would make that original comment seriously misguided.
As to the basic point however that you can somehow vote someone into power who's going to change the reality of how the world is turning out... ha. Ha ha. Unless you're voting for someone who's literally talking about shooting people at the border and letting them drown at sea, you're falling for someone's lies because you desperately want to believe them.
Then I'd ask why you're so desperate to believe them.
immigration will solve all these issues for now? Japan is not alone. In the future I think the babies can be born outside of the womb at some centers in volume per nation/race's needs.
Japan is remarkably uninterested in becoming an immigrant country. Guests are treated with warm, well-mannered hospitality but long-term immigrants are neither desired nor able to assimilate. How many other countries are there with a sizable population of 3rd generation foreigners?
Immigration might be a harder sell than dwindling down and disappearing altogether as a nation/culture/race/whatever else is bundled in with being "Japanese".
Immigration might be a harder sell than dwindling down and disappearing altogether as a nation/culture/race/whatever else is bundled in with being "Japanese".
It is definitely their choice to remain homogeneous. One way or another that choice will have strong consequences be they good or bad.
The fun part about the "cultural integration" aspect of immigration is that people want it both ways. In the sense, they want a certain aspect of immigrants and don't want others. Basically, they don't want multiculturalism but rather clones that resemble their society. Sure, immigrants have to take 8/10 steps for cultural integration but the host country would also need to take the remaining 2 steps. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I had a conversation with a Japanese American artist a couple of years ago on the general topic of the post-WWII infantilization of Japanese culture.
I believe we reached a sort of mild agreement that Japan's collective unconscious is still trying to process the shock of being on the receiving end of a nuclear attack.
I believe we reached a sort of mild agreement that Japan's collective unconscious is still trying to process the shock of being on the receiving end of a nuclear attack.
Please, can you give some details about this "infantilization"? I can't be the only one who can't think of anything other than Hello Kitty.
The original "Gojira" (Godzilla) in 1954 has been regarded as an expression of the impotence and powerlessness felt by many Japanese after being forced to surrender to the Allies in WW2, and the subsequent American occupation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10788996/Godzilla-wh...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10788996/Godzilla-wh...
Interesting perspective. Defeat was the consequence of having started the war in the first place. Nobody in America was sitting around in 1941 thinking up ways to vaporize Japanese people. As they say on the Internet: play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
It wouldn't surprise me if some Japanese viewed the atomic bombings as an unwarranted act of unprovoked aggression - and they may not be entirely unjustified if they do.
From their point of view, it probably seemed as if the US had already won and just decided to spike the football.
From their point of view, it probably seemed as if the US had already won and just decided to spike the football.
Yeah, unprovoked? That belies a lack of historical perspective.
Japan killed tens of millions of Chinese and intended to occupy the entire western Pacific, killing or enslaving all the people who lived there. The entire nation, all of its labor and industry, was bent toward this goal. It was a nation of profound evil.
Japan killed tens of millions of Chinese and intended to occupy the entire western Pacific, killing or enslaving all the people who lived there. The entire nation, all of its labor and industry, was bent toward this goal. It was a nation of profound evil.
>It was a nation of profound evil.
That's one perspective. Another is that Japan was merely doing what it felt was necessary to protect itself from interference by aggressive Western Imperial powers, and weren't necessarily more "evil" than any other empire at the time. A third is that the country that dropped two atomic bombs on civilian cities and firebombed Tokyo to the ground was no less evil than the empire they were fighting.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, but "evil" seems more often than not to be matter of cultural relativism and propaganda. It wasn't long after World War 2 that the US was begging Japan for help in their other Asian conflicts and burning whole villages to the ground in the name of fighting the "profound evil" of communism.
That's one perspective. Another is that Japan was merely doing what it felt was necessary to protect itself from interference by aggressive Western Imperial powers, and weren't necessarily more "evil" than any other empire at the time. A third is that the country that dropped two atomic bombs on civilian cities and firebombed Tokyo to the ground was no less evil than the empire they were fighting.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, but "evil" seems more often than not to be matter of cultural relativism and propaganda. It wasn't long after World War 2 that the US was begging Japan for help in their other Asian conflicts and burning whole villages to the ground in the name of fighting the "profound evil" of communism.
It boggles the mind to hear 10+ million civilian deaths and wartime atrocities in Asia described as being "merely one perspective".
One can only assume that this individual believes Germany's concentration camps and what occurred therein were just "cultural relativism" and "propaganda" too and that Germany was "doing what it felt was necessary to protect itself".
One can only assume that this individual believes Germany's concentration camps and what occurred therein were just "cultural relativism" and "propaganda" too and that Germany was "doing what it felt was necessary to protect itself".
>One can only assume that this individual believes Germany's concentration camps and what occurred therein were just "cultural relativism" and "propaganda" too and that Germany was "doing what it felt was necessary to protect itself".
One can only assume this individual didn't bother to read all the words I wrote before deciding they knew what I believe.
I specifically said I didn't subscribe to the views I enumerated, but those views certainly do exist. Personally, I think Imperial Japan was incredibly evil. I also think the atomic bombings were evil. Hell, many Japanese feel the atomic bombings were justified - and Japanese legislators contributed to the very peace constitution that "emasculated" them, because they felt (justifiably) betrayed by the Emperor's ambitions.
But since we're discussing the way Japan may view the atomic bombings and how that event affected Japan's culture, reducing that culture to the thought-terminating cliche of "profound evil" adds nothing to the discussion.
One can only assume this individual didn't bother to read all the words I wrote before deciding they knew what I believe.
I specifically said I didn't subscribe to the views I enumerated, but those views certainly do exist. Personally, I think Imperial Japan was incredibly evil. I also think the atomic bombings were evil. Hell, many Japanese feel the atomic bombings were justified - and Japanese legislators contributed to the very peace constitution that "emasculated" them, because they felt (justifiably) betrayed by the Emperor's ambitions.
But since we're discussing the way Japan may view the atomic bombings and how that event affected Japan's culture, reducing that culture to the thought-terminating cliche of "profound evil" adds nothing to the discussion.
When you hit the point where you're dropping plague-ridden fleas in bombs, you've lost even the semblance of a moral or practical argument.
It's not like China didn't do that in its past either, probably as recently as qianlong. But they don't go around calling China a nation of profound evil at the time.
Right, the historical anomaly of Japan and Nazi Germany was they tried to kill everybody and take all of their land well after that kind of thing had passed out of style.
I don't think war and conquering has gone out of style so much as it has become way too costly to pursue. We haven't actually become more righteous.
> From their point of view, it probably seemed as if the US had already won and just decided to spike the football.
That wouldn't be far from the truth? If I remember, and it was reported correctly, the US govt deemed the nuclear bomb to be the lesser of two evils; the other being a long drawn out deescalation due to Japanese pride.
That wouldn't be far from the truth? If I remember, and it was reported correctly, the US govt deemed the nuclear bomb to be the lesser of two evils; the other being a long drawn out deescalation due to Japanese pride.
Yes, that's what's taught in US schools, but there's significant controversy among historians over whether the Japanese may have been about to surrender in the late summer of 1945 anyway.
It's mentioned in the (rather "left") book and Showtime series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Stone%27s_Untold_Histor...
I don't think it's a stretch at all to believe that the US did not need to drop the second bomb.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan
It's mentioned in the (rather "left") book and Showtime series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Stone%27s_Untold_Histor...
I don't think it's a stretch at all to believe that the US did not need to drop the second bomb.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan
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I'm not expert on Japanese culture. This comment comes from my experience 20 years ago I spent about six weeks in Japan, four of them working in an office in Kyoto and doing the daily commute on the train (the real reason I was there).
One thing that jumped out at me was what appeared to be a widespread fetish where the ideal woman looked like a cupie doll type school girl, almost like a living anime character.
There were also a lot of free "manga" around (anime magazines) and not only where these schoolgirl characters everywhere, raping them was a common theme.
I loved my short stay in Japan, and I had a lot of positive experiences there, but that aspect of the culture was downright creepy.
One thing that jumped out at me was what appeared to be a widespread fetish where the ideal woman looked like a cupie doll type school girl, almost like a living anime character.
There were also a lot of free "manga" around (anime magazines) and not only where these schoolgirl characters everywhere, raping them was a common theme.
I loved my short stay in Japan, and I had a lot of positive experiences there, but that aspect of the culture was downright creepy.
Nuclear bombs and then Hello Kitty? This thread is about as up to date as my grandparents.
There's a corollary theory here in America where the people who lived through the horrors of WWII reacted by raising the next generation to be free spirits interested in enjoying life while they could.
We were discussing various topics, fashion, film, and graphic arts, and of course, Godzilla:
http://www.oneikathetraveller.com/tokyo-style-and-infantiliz...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manga#After_World_W...
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/godzilla-is-our-never-endin...
--
[p.s. edit: this thread got me surfing around and landed on the topic of Kawaii Ambassadors [below], which prompts the thought that another component of this very visible trend in post WWII Japanese culture may be a desire to present a non-threatening global image.]
http://web-japan.org/trends/09_culture/pop090827.html
http://www.japannewbie.com/2010/01/14/state-sponsored-cute-k...
https://youtu.be/qAc3xXEx7lo
http://www.oneikathetraveller.com/tokyo-style-and-infantiliz...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manga#After_World_W...
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/godzilla-is-our-never-endin...
--
[p.s. edit: this thread got me surfing around and landed on the topic of Kawaii Ambassadors [below], which prompts the thought that another component of this very visible trend in post WWII Japanese culture may be a desire to present a non-threatening global image.]
http://web-japan.org/trends/09_culture/pop090827.html
http://www.japannewbie.com/2010/01/14/state-sponsored-cute-k...
https://youtu.be/qAc3xXEx7lo
So that's why every chick in a Japanese porno flick is a virgin.
Virgins sell more papers though, so lets get that clickbait going.