Spurred by Amazon, Supermarkets Try Swapping Cashiers for Cameras(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Spurred by Amazon, Supermarkets Try Swapping Cashiers for Cameras
https://www.wsj.com/articles/spurred-by-amazon-supermarkets-try-swapping-cashiers-for-cameras-11562491800?mod=rsswn
155 comments
I tried out Amazon Go in SF and I have to say that I'm very impressed. It doesn't even require a standalone app if you already have the Amazon app downloaded. I walked in, scanned my phone, grabbed a sandwich and walked out. It took 2 minutes and felt a lot less friction-y then buying something at a convenience store, which admittedly was low friction to begin with.
Yesterday I had a similar experience with a cafe in a smallish town (Malvern, PA). However, instead of using an app system, they relied on the "honor system". I would be curious as to their annual losses, and how that would vary when in a metropolitan area such as SF.
That's cool, but that would be a hassle for groceries if you had to manually add up all your purchases. The app allows you to combine security with customer convenience.
We have a trust-based beverage PoS at our hackerspace. The bottle crates are just standing there and everyone is trusted to pay into the cash desk next to the crates when they take bottles out. Our weekly losses (i.e. bottles and money not accounted for) average ~40€, with weekly revenue around 200-300€. The losses are factored into the prices. Prices are comparable to or slightly below convenience store levels.
Is there a mechanism for IoUs / credit lines for members?
I've seen trust-based mate shops at hackerspaces around the world, and I've been told that the ones that have a credit system (even one that's not limited, checked, and that's not even authenticated) end up actually not having any significant losses. Like, anything from a piece of paper with people noting down unpaid mate purchases to things like android tablets with a webapp letting you note that you put in a bill of N euros and taken out a bottle of mate.
Friction from being able to pay right away seems to lead to "I'll pay extra later" thinking, which makes people either forget or miscalculate how much they actually owe.
I've seen trust-based mate shops at hackerspaces around the world, and I've been told that the ones that have a credit system (even one that's not limited, checked, and that's not even authenticated) end up actually not having any significant losses. Like, anything from a piece of paper with people noting down unpaid mate purchases to things like android tablets with a webapp letting you note that you put in a bill of N euros and taken out a bottle of mate.
Friction from being able to pay right away seems to lead to "I'll pay extra later" thinking, which makes people either forget or miscalculate how much they actually owe.
Yes, each member account has a balance without any restrictions in either direction, and it mostly works fine. At times, the negative balances pile up, in which case I write a mail to the mailing list asking people to pay their dues. Usually, the negative balances approximately cancel out the positive balances, both at something like 1000 euros.
Also, when your balance is negative, after every purchase there is a big red notification reminding you of that.
Also, when your balance is negative, after every purchase there is a big red notification reminding you of that.
> and how that would vary when in a metropolitan area such as SF.
I've spoken with grocery store clerks in SF (at major chains like Walgreens) who were concerned that their stores might be closed because of truly excessive losses due to constant shoplifting. Of course the shrinkage is factored into the price, but you can only raise prices so much before it starts eating into your sales.
BTW, when I visited the Amazon Go in SF it actually seemed to have more staff present than a regular grocery store of comparable size.
I've spoken with grocery store clerks in SF (at major chains like Walgreens) who were concerned that their stores might be closed because of truly excessive losses due to constant shoplifting. Of course the shrinkage is factored into the price, but you can only raise prices so much before it starts eating into your sales.
BTW, when I visited the Amazon Go in SF it actually seemed to have more staff present than a regular grocery store of comparable size.
Especially if they save enough in personnel costs to cover the shrink. Maybe throw in some CCTV to catch egregious offenders.
CCTV seems like a bad move. It creates an adversarial relationship to the customers. For a small business, it would be better to cultivate goodwill and rely on community norms to police offenders.
People aren't likely to repeatedly steal from an honours system cafe if there are regular customers witnessing them.
People aren't likely to repeatedly steal from an honours system cafe if there are regular customers witnessing them.
But how do you distinguish between someone stealing versus someone leaving and paying through the app in their car?
That no longer falls under the purview of the small, independent cafe on the honours system.
I'd say, in a cafe, besides cash you could have a touchscreen to key in your order and tap your phone to pay. The walk in walk out Amazon model is not an honours system, it's a technological policing model.
I'd say, in a cafe, besides cash you could have a touchscreen to key in your order and tap your phone to pay. The walk in walk out Amazon model is not an honours system, it's a technological policing model.
The obvious question now is what it tracks. Presumably if you pick up a sandwich and then put it down somewhere else in the store you shouldn't be charged for it. What happens if you walk in, pick up a sandwich, eat the sandwich, and leave?
Moving stuff is seamless. You are not charged.
Passing items between friends that used the same phone to get in is also seamless (I’ve never tried passing an item between two amazon accounts).
I believe there are weight sensors to counteract stuff like taking out half a sandwich and putting the rest back, but I’m not sure about this one.
There are definitely ways to cheat the system. But the tech is at a point where it is similar hassle/consequences to other petty shoplifting that happens across the world (the cameras can always be checked by a human in a post-mortem).
The reality is convenience store shopping is at a point where it is almost always better for the company and the customer with Amazon Go tech.
The bigger problems with the Amazon Go tech is, how do you scale it to a supermarket size, how do you get around or change regulations that a human needs to validate ID for alcohol, how do you auto-stock the place, how do you get away from needing a human for security guard / first aid reasons? Also I imagine it costs a lot to set up. How do you make this cheap enough to be financially worth the ROI?
Passing items between friends that used the same phone to get in is also seamless (I’ve never tried passing an item between two amazon accounts).
I believe there are weight sensors to counteract stuff like taking out half a sandwich and putting the rest back, but I’m not sure about this one.
There are definitely ways to cheat the system. But the tech is at a point where it is similar hassle/consequences to other petty shoplifting that happens across the world (the cameras can always be checked by a human in a post-mortem).
The reality is convenience store shopping is at a point where it is almost always better for the company and the customer with Amazon Go tech.
The bigger problems with the Amazon Go tech is, how do you scale it to a supermarket size, how do you get around or change regulations that a human needs to validate ID for alcohol, how do you auto-stock the place, how do you get away from needing a human for security guard / first aid reasons? Also I imagine it costs a lot to set up. How do you make this cheap enough to be financially worth the ROI?
I think having the shop staffed isn’t necessarily a problem or failure. The original Go store in Seattle has alcohol (ID is checked by a person that permits entry into that section) and the store is otherwise staffed for restocking and general customer service. But I walk in, grab what I want for lunch, and walk out. I don’t wait in line behind 5 other people while waiting for the awkward chip card delay or that guy that wants to pay with pocket change that hogs the register. Consequently, I go there far more often than the 7-11 down the street.
You can still have a security guard or two - that just means you need two guards instead of two guards and half a dozen cashiers.
I agree with you - the stores will save more money by switching to this tech and it will be better for the customers.
I really hate having to queue for 10 minutes in a busy supermarket to buy groceries - it's probably the worst UX I experience on a regular basis.
I agree with you - the stores will save more money by switching to this tech and it will be better for the customers.
I really hate having to queue for 10 minutes in a busy supermarket to buy groceries - it's probably the worst UX I experience on a regular basis.
> if you pick up a sandwich and then put it down somewhere else in the store
Why do people do this? Why can’t you put it back where you got it if you don’t want it any more?
Why do people do this? Why can’t you put it back where you got it if you don’t want it any more?
Why do people do this? Why can’t you put it back where you got it if you don’t want it any more?
Some people are just terrible.
I was in a supermarket sometime last year and saw a woman put a package of meat in the toilet paper aisle and walk away. She saw me staring at her and began shouting at me.
The world is full of awful people.
Some people are just terrible.
I was in a supermarket sometime last year and saw a woman put a package of meat in the toilet paper aisle and walk away. She saw me staring at her and began shouting at me.
The world is full of awful people.
At least she reacted. It's utter indifference that scares me.
Oh, the humanity!
> I was in a supermarket sometime last year and saw a woman put a package of meat in the toilet paper aisle and walk away. She saw me staring at her and began shouting at me.
I mean it's kind of symbolic: meat is basically absolute, complete and utter shit, anyway.
I mean it's kind of symbolic: meat is basically absolute, complete and utter shit, anyway.
I worked in a supermarket for several years and this happened all the time. I could never figure it out, but basically some people would change their mind and dump things right where they were standing.
Normally this isn’t a big big deal - we would just put it back in the correct spot but sometimes we’d get fruit and veges dumped in the freezer which would ruin them. That was particularly weird.
Amazon Go stores are cashier-less but not staff-less, there are people watching.
Does the app show you what you're buying and what it costs before you exit?
No, it does not. There was a lot of latency (~2 hours) before I saw what I was charged for.
In that case I would be unwilling to use it. A normal checkout provides a point in time and space when what you are buying is reviewed and you become aware of the total and any errors. If someone says there will be no errors, I just roll my eyes.
I have no idea how many other people are like this, but I already don't look at my receipts when I'm in a grocery store. If I do, it's because I realized I forgot something and want to know if I actually forgot something. So for me, the experience ends up being the same.
Sure, I often don't pay attention either. But once in a while, I notice something wrong anyway, and also I'm free-riding on the fact that some people pay more attention.
A store that is arranging things so that there are no checks is a store that is going to profit from its own mistakes. Impersonal forces will drive it to do so regardless of particular human intentions.
A store that is arranging things so that there are no checks is a store that is going to profit from its own mistakes. Impersonal forces will drive it to do so regardless of particular human intentions.
There’s an old joke about a guy making money downtown exchanging $5 bills for five $1 bills. When asked how makes money the response is, “Well, I never make a mistake...”
I know a couple people who have reported mistakes, and they were refunded with no questions asked. I have used it dozens of times with 100% accuracy so far
LinusTechTips, when Amazon’s store first opened, visited and “returned” something they grabbed, and they just refunded them. They called Amazon and were told there’s no way to process returns outside of a refund (for the store)
People have been buying things and only getting an invoice at a later time for millennia, and managed fine.
Interesting you should mention invoices. I got my car repaired recently, and the invoice was about $1,000 more than expected. They assured me there would be no problem with the insurance, but obviously if they and the insurance company had their shit together, then it would have been reviewed and approved before doing the work. The insurance company may have eventually approved it and I hope to be getting a check soon, but the fact is, I paid them up front and have been left hanging for two weeks now. Neither business answers emails, calls me back, or does anything in a reasonable amount of time (it's been months since the claim). One told me that the delays of the other are in fact violating state regulations. Yet both companies are well-known and often recommended - I didn't choose them at random.
This is the sort of relationship I do not want to get into for ordinary purchases. It demands too much trust, which is hard to build and unnecessary for most things.
This is the sort of relationship I do not want to get into for ordinary purchases. It demands too much trust, which is hard to build and unnecessary for most things.
Name and shame, please!
Not when payment is extracted in real time.
Isn’t payment by credit card in almost all cases? You can view a statement before paying it a month later. How’s that in real time?
The vendor payment commitment is immediate. The cardholder is a borrower from the issuer standpoint.
No, again the vendor and payment providers settle at a later time.
I wonder if the system couldn't reliably identify what you bought and queued the footage for human review.
I wonder if they're using Mechanical Turkers to review the video footage.
Another datapoint: about 5 minutes for the one in Seattle last month
You get a receipt after you exit. And from the receipt there's an option to notify of a mistake. I've never had to use it yet, and I haven't had a mistake happen yet so I can't comment on how smooth that would be.
I've heard that the process for contesting charges is simple and high-trust.
Perhaps, perhaps.
The issue I have is that once you add the friction in, it prevents errors from being corrected, and that reduces the incentive to prevent them. It's not about whether I can get a problem fixed when I notice it. It's that the number of problems will be higher because on average fewer will be noticed and fixed. Furthermore, whenever the rate of problems seems a little too high, the easy "fix" is to add a little more friction.
The issue I have is that once you add the friction in, it prevents errors from being corrected, and that reduces the incentive to prevent them. It's not about whether I can get a problem fixed when I notice it. It's that the number of problems will be higher because on average fewer will be noticed and fixed. Furthermore, whenever the rate of problems seems a little too high, the easy "fix" is to add a little more friction.
If items aren't priced, that should be illegal in CA.
Of course the items are priced.
visibly priced, as in marked on the item, the location, or both.
Of course they are "priced" in the sense of the vendor assigning a price to deduct, but transparency to the purchaser is legally required.
Of course they are "priced" in the sense of the vendor assigning a price to deduct, but transparency to the purchaser is legally required.
Yes, folks, the prices for items are indeed on display to shoppers!
https://learn.g2.com/hs-fs/hubfs/IMG_20181101_131335763.jpg
https://learn.g2.com/hs-fs/hubfs/IMG_20181101_131335763.jpg
I’ve been to multiple locations in person and can confirm there’s a very visible price tag below each product on the shelf. Search Google images and you’ll see plenty of examples.
There’s shelf tags just like every other store you’re used to.
Do you guys have RFID credit cards? I'm not sure how much more convenient it needs to be than an item scan and a tap of a card.
Item scanning can take a while, as well as queuing for it. Tapping card vs chip and pin is a tiny time saving compared to the whole checking out process.
I live in Switzerland and for a small number of items I can usually be in and out of my regular snack supermarket (a regular supermarket, I just use it for snacks) within 120 seconds.
It's just walk in, pick up a drink and a snack, walk to the self check kiosk and scan both barcodes, tap a few times rapidly (you can just hammer a button in the same place a few times) and wave my card. If I had to guess I'd say the entire checkout process takes ~10s, most of which is getting my card out of my wallet.
This differs from a US self checkout in a few ways:
- I nearly always had to queue in the US. I nearly never have to queue in Switzerland, at least at this store. This may be because:
- Swiss self checkout kiosks don't weigh the bagging area like US ones do. In the US there's always a small delay between scanning items while you bag the item and wait for the checkout to detect it. In Switzerland you just scan it and the kiosk doesn't care what you do with it afterwards.
- Payment is extremely fast, like sub-second end-to-end fast. You literally just wave your card at the terminal.
- There are usually 15-20 self checkout terminals in the larger supermarkets you find in the city so unless you're there at a really busy time, they usually have more than enough throughput to deal with traffic. In the US I'm used to seeing <10 self checkout terminals.
It's just walk in, pick up a drink and a snack, walk to the self check kiosk and scan both barcodes, tap a few times rapidly (you can just hammer a button in the same place a few times) and wave my card. If I had to guess I'd say the entire checkout process takes ~10s, most of which is getting my card out of my wallet.
This differs from a US self checkout in a few ways:
- I nearly always had to queue in the US. I nearly never have to queue in Switzerland, at least at this store. This may be because:
- Swiss self checkout kiosks don't weigh the bagging area like US ones do. In the US there's always a small delay between scanning items while you bag the item and wait for the checkout to detect it. In Switzerland you just scan it and the kiosk doesn't care what you do with it afterwards.
- Payment is extremely fast, like sub-second end-to-end fast. You literally just wave your card at the terminal.
- There are usually 15-20 self checkout terminals in the larger supermarkets you find in the city so unless you're there at a really busy time, they usually have more than enough throughput to deal with traffic. In the US I'm used to seeing <10 self checkout terminals.
Ugh. I will _always_ prefer friction to my own convenience if it means some person can have a job. I could care less about efficiency and I could care less about some shareholder's bottom line. Maybe I would feel differently if we lived in a country that would actually take care of people who didn't have money or opportunity.
> I will _always_ prefer friction to my own convenience if it means some person can have a job.
No you won't. Our standard of living is built on automation in a million ways, big and small.
You're only actually opposed to recent, more visible examples. Why?
No you won't. Our standard of living is built on automation in a million ways, big and small.
You're only actually opposed to recent, more visible examples. Why?
There's still one person to help at the door, one person to check ID for the alchohol section, a security guard, and clerks that fill up the aisles, refill the shelves, put things back in their place, etc.
Also, they have a kitchen attached to them, and prepare food in it, so they have kitchen staff for that and all the delivery surrounding it.
They also now need to hire engineers to work on the system, maintain and repair it, and service workers to setup and maintain the infrastructure needed in the store.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure the whole things turns out way more expansive for them than hiring a few cashiers. I think the idea is that the extra convenience given to the customers mean that customers will prefer to shop at Amazon Go instead of elsewhere, and that might be worth the extra cost to grow the marketshare.
Also, they have a kitchen attached to them, and prepare food in it, so they have kitchen staff for that and all the delivery surrounding it.
They also now need to hire engineers to work on the system, maintain and repair it, and service workers to setup and maintain the infrastructure needed in the store.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure the whole things turns out way more expansive for them than hiring a few cashiers. I think the idea is that the extra convenience given to the customers mean that customers will prefer to shop at Amazon Go instead of elsewhere, and that might be worth the extra cost to grow the marketshare.
It isn’t as if there’s no staff. Someone still needs to restock, clean, answer customer questions, etc.
Do you send email?
In for the penny, in for the pound? Nobody is a saint so you may as well double down on sin? Interesting philosophy. I'd rather people be morally inconsistent and do less harm than do more harm in the pursuit of moral consistency.
Pretty sure the point was that almost everything was an optimization that used humans at some point.
A weird moral compass that had you not using technology that replaced menial labor would be actually impossible in any (even ancient) society.
A weird moral compass that had you not using technology that replaced menial labor would be actually impossible in any (even ancient) society.
You're mistaking the argument being made, which is really about recognizing ones own moral inconsistencies instead of claiming moral high ground over others where there is none to be had.
A tech worker who claims to value a cashier's job over their own convenience is basically gorging on two large deluxe pizzas while criticizing others for eating an olive.
Just look around you. Pick just about anything. A wall. A refrigerator. Your shoes. A spice jar. They all have stories to tell about automation and job loss.
A tech worker who claims to value a cashier's job over their own convenience is basically gorging on two large deluxe pizzas while criticizing others for eating an olive.
Just look around you. Pick just about anything. A wall. A refrigerator. Your shoes. A spice jar. They all have stories to tell about automation and job loss.
Go ahead and automate away every job you see, but don't say I didn't warn you when anti-tech pogroms take your head. The public perception of this industry has been taking a nose dive for a few years now and stuff like this, attitudes like yours, only reinforces it.
And any mobs stupid enough to pogrom will be shot and deserve it for being literal murders, any society to condone it will richly deserve its downfall from superior rivals.
It was stupid scapegoating in the past and it is even stupider now. Notice specifically that scapegoating is specifically at who is weak and at hand - not actual sources of problems.
It was stupid scapegoating in the past and it is even stupider now. Notice specifically that scapegoating is specifically at who is weak and at hand - not actual sources of problems.
Anger the general public at your own peril. The elite always believe themselves invulnerable, until they find it proven otherwise.
It's a bit ridiculous making such a non-differentiating statement claiming to be against automation when that is a lot of what the digital revolution is about in the first place. No less on hacker news, which is one of the hubs to talk about the digital revolution.
I'm sure this is a small subset of people/places, but our small local markets seem to be doing very well in recent years. They are moving the opposite direction. I personally like knowing my butchers name and getting sound advice on purchases from real people.
You can still have a butcher in a cashier-less store.
That interest has an inverse correlation with social anxiety; which I believe will continue to rise with the rise in virtual experiences over real-world ones.
I hope that everyone that is trying this out and/or is excited about the technology is aware that they are basically giving away their biometric data. The way you talk, your physical dimensions, your behavior, everything that makes you you can now be monetized (if we’re lucky).
I know the same argument can be made for buying stuff online - but in the physical world you cannot really change your appearance without ridiculous costs/time involved.
I know the same argument can be made for buying stuff online - but in the physical world you cannot really change your appearance without ridiculous costs/time involved.
But...they same could be said of walking into a regular supermarket too.
Many supermarkets already have a large amount of CCTV inside of them. Some of these are already mining the data for the concerns you describe (often without the audio aspect).
What makes this worse than that?
Many supermarkets already have a large amount of CCTV inside of them. Some of these are already mining the data for the concerns you describe (often without the audio aspect).
What makes this worse than that?
I suspect that this sort of project requires them to develop tools that significantly lower the barrier to performing automated biometric data gathering. It is also easier for them to link your body to your digital presence and identity since you need to use your Amazon account. A store using this sort of tech could therefore much more easily monetize your biometrics.
In any case, we desperately need regulations to govern government/corporate use of individuals' biometrics.
In any case, we desperately need regulations to govern government/corporate use of individuals' biometrics.
yes. you are right. what makes a supermarket “better” is that their tech is not yet there + you can in theory pay with cash making it harder to link your identity with your characteristics.
we need strong privacy laws so that the penalties for collecting/abusing biometric data is a strong deterrent for whoever does this kind kf thing.
we need strong privacy laws so that the penalties for collecting/abusing biometric data is a strong deterrent for whoever does this kind kf thing.
Yea, I'm absolutely onboard with privacy laws that make this kind of mass biometric recognition illegal or subject to very strong constraints.
The point I (poorly) tried to raise wasn't: "well, grocery stores could do this too, so it's not a problem". Rather, it was more: "shouldn't this be even more alarming, given that it can already happen at most stores across the country".
The point I (poorly) tried to raise wasn't: "well, grocery stores could do this too, so it's not a problem". Rather, it was more: "shouldn't this be even more alarming, given that it can already happen at most stores across the country".
For me, the source of friction is always the long wait for the cashier. And if I forget something, another wait. I'm looking forward to just walking in and walking out with my purchases.
Why go to the grocery store at all?
Speaking for myself, I don’t want what you typically get from Amazon and the like - old products near expiration, shitty produce, etc at a premium price.
Personally, my family is going in a different direction. Commodity products at Aldi, different stuff at Trader Joe’s and speciality products at specialty retail.
It’s cheaper, better quality and less time than navigating a 150k sqft store.
Personally, my family is going in a different direction. Commodity products at Aldi, different stuff at Trader Joe’s and speciality products at specialty retail.
It’s cheaper, better quality and less time than navigating a 150k sqft store.
I'm not the original commenter, but I like looking at, touching, and picking out my own food. I don't think I will ever get groceries delivered.
To buy groceries.
I dont think you intended that, but your comment seems to imply that having higher friction is an inherent experience of a grocery store, and that there is no reason to go there otherwise.
I dont think you intended that, but your comment seems to imply that having higher friction is an inherent experience of a grocery store, and that there is no reason to go there otherwise.
I think they were instead implying you could just have your groceries delivered for a very low cost. I’ve used grocery deliveries from the chain directly before, but they would sometimes make minor substitutions, like between ice cream brands for instance, that I could not then eat because of dietary restrictions. Returns / refunds were easy but it was still more of a hassle than just showing up to the store, which is usually pretty hassle free unless you pick an exceptionally bad time.
Delivery isn't a substitute for shopping on your own, it is just a completely different experience, and I don't think they are meant to replace each other any time soon. While shopping on your own with an automated checkout is clearly just a slightly modified version of shopping on your own.
I’d much rather not go to the store, but I’ve had too many grocery deliveries with bad produce, dented cans, etc. Ifbthere was someway I could remotely choose my fruits and vegetables and make sure there were no other damaged items, I’d never go the grocery store again.
I can see this being useful in France. I was basically accused several times of being shoplifter. At one store they demanded to look inside my bag and then zip-tied it shut. At another store they wanted to go through my bag at checkout. It was all very rude and undignified.
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Local supermarkets have cameras with blinking red lights and a real-time screen watching you at the self-service checkout that you have to use because there are 5 cashiers in a hypermarket vs. 40 when I were a small.
I wish them and amazon go all the best in the world but this will not fly at all to be the common situation. It will always remain a novelty used by a few locations in cities and that's all. And you wanna know why? Simple, who's stopping the theft? Once this will go mainstream the theft will eat the profit margins and they will revert to current situation.
No one is stopping the thieves today. I regularly see people walking out with stolen items. Unless there is a security guard there, which an automated store could still hire. Also the amazon stores make you scan your phone on the way in, so they can prevent people who have shoplifted before from even entering.
In the US, stopping someone can be difficult when it comes to legal liability. There is a thin line between detaining someone and forcibly kidnapping someone.
E.g.: Theaters don’t allow entry without tickets.
The Amazon Go stores are controlled access, you need to swipe your app to get past the gate.
There is also (at least at the original one) plenty of staff, just they are helping people through the gates and restocking shelves.
You could still shoplift with a fake Amazon account, but this would be way above the effort level most shoplifters go to, especially to steal a sandwich.
There is also (at least at the original one) plenty of staff, just they are helping people through the gates and restocking shelves.
You could still shoplift with a fake Amazon account, but this would be way above the effort level most shoplifters go to, especially to steal a sandwich.
So who is stopping one dude in the pack have the app, some credit in it, swipe to open the door of the store, and it's gonna be followed by his 20 henchmen to robe the store blind while 2 of them will just block the door altogether to stay open?. 1000 USD iPhone X multiplied by at least 20 for each of them multiplied by 20 dudes it will make a nice 400k USD dent in under a minute. Have this happening at a few of these stores and you can see how that profit margin is going down the drain real fast.
Interesting. Have you been to San Francisco supermarkets? Try the Safeways along Mission St. if you're there. People will walk in, grab liquor off the shelves, and walk out. It relies on people recognizing and stopping them. And that's something the Go store is capable of doing because it has staff at entry.
They want to get rid of staff altogether, that's their final goal with this style of stores. My point was this will never happen because once you remove humans from equation, theft will skyrocket
Cashiers != all staff. Regardless, it doesn’t matter if removing all staff is their final goal or not because even with their current amount of staffing they are cheaper and more convenient than other stores.
That solution is easy — they won’t put stores in areas where the shrink is too challenging. No Amazon Go in the hood.
Apple has done the same thing forever with mobile checkout. They make it work by crazy margins, plus a customer base and voluntary compliance.
Retail employees have limited ability to do anything about shrink other than increase friction anyway. I worked at a big electronics retailer in the 90s that would get robbed blind, and there was very little you could do. The only exception was when a gang of fake Asian tourists raided the place, and we “helped” by being interrogated by the police, because they suspected than an employee tipped the gang off about inventory.
Apple has done the same thing forever with mobile checkout. They make it work by crazy margins, plus a customer base and voluntary compliance.
Retail employees have limited ability to do anything about shrink other than increase friction anyway. I worked at a big electronics retailer in the 90s that would get robbed blind, and there was very little you could do. The only exception was when a gang of fake Asian tourists raided the place, and we “helped” by being interrogated by the police, because they suspected than an employee tipped the gang off about inventory.
Exactly my point. Stores do exists in the hood today, don't they? So this will stay a novelty only in few places throughout the cities, never gonna replace the existing style of stores.
They do, but usually of the bodega variety with high prices and poor products.
The danger is that these new outlets keep peeling off more of the mass-affluent and working class customers that keep the other stores profitable. Just as Sears and Macy's anchored the 250 other stores in a mall, the supermarket anchors alot of other business. So we went from 80% of goods sold by tens of thousands of retailers in 1970 to dozens/hundreds in 2000 to potentially 3-5 in 2030.
The danger is that these new outlets keep peeling off more of the mass-affluent and working class customers that keep the other stores profitable. Just as Sears and Macy's anchored the 250 other stores in a mall, the supermarket anchors alot of other business. So we went from 80% of goods sold by tens of thousands of retailers in 1970 to dozens/hundreds in 2000 to potentially 3-5 in 2030.
Agreed. Also why you don't see Tiffany's in the hood as well. High price merchandise will always be a novelty. Amazon go and the like are high price merchandise too.
Hundreds of cameras and sensors are stopping the theft.
Really? Currently humans are stopping theft. Try to catch a flock of thieves that can roam unstopped in your store and rob it blindly with masks on. Until the police will arrive they are gone and you're left with cameras recording masks of dead presidents eating your profit margins. A few of these incidents and you'll see humans popping back in those stores in no time.
A flock of thieves wouldn't be stopped by a convenience store clerk either. By requiring Amazon Go customers to be registered Amazon customers, Amazon have already significantly reduced the "shoplifting surface". If you're in a city that mandates that customers can use cash, they must interact with an employee in the store (https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-go-store-how-to-pay-c...).
Since you have to "log in" to the store with your Amazon account when entering, it doesn't matter if you're masked. Whatever you carry out will be billed to your account.
There is no need to catch these people, they're customers, not thieves.
There is no need to catch these people, they're customers, not thieves.
"Mr. policeman my phone got stolen from my hand". Then got used to open the door for the 20 flock that robbed the store blindly. Prove that he's lying.
There are a few reasons this is an unlikely scenario:
1) You need to unlock the phone to access the Amazon Go app QR code
2) There isn't just a door to the store, there are security portals that make it difficult to tailgate
3) If a thief is bold enough to steal a phone, they're not interested in petty convenience store theft, they're going to flip that phone for cash
Go stores have people watching, but it's much easier to have 1 to 2 people watching than it is to have a bunch of cashiers
You highly underestimate how easy it is to shoplift.
In Dubai, Carrefour has a branch that allows you to scan the items with your while you adding them to your trolley, so that in the end, you do not need to do a full checkout and can just do the payment and walk out.
There is another Carrefour branch, which does not have the above option, but allows you to give your trolley to the checkout counter, and just go home. In 30 minutes or so, you get the products delivered to your door, with the credit card reader, so you can pay.
What would be really awesome, would be a merger of there two features, as follows:
I walk around the supermarket scanning the items I need (without adding to trolley, and lugging the trolley around). Then pay and walk out, and in 30 minutes the items are delivered to my house.
That would be cool, and the tech and systems are in place for that.
There is another Carrefour branch, which does not have the above option, but allows you to give your trolley to the checkout counter, and just go home. In 30 minutes or so, you get the products delivered to your door, with the credit card reader, so you can pay.
What would be really awesome, would be a merger of there two features, as follows:
I walk around the supermarket scanning the items I need (without adding to trolley, and lugging the trolley around). Then pay and walk out, and in 30 minutes the items are delivered to my house.
That would be cool, and the tech and systems are in place for that.
You can do that in the UK already too. Or self scan at a checkout. I think the difference here is really that they're talking about using cameras instead of scanning and it seems not even having a cashier as an option.
I think nearly half of people do some grocery shopping online these days, I wonder if that's putting more pressure on supermarkets to reduce overheads like cashiers. The lower end supermarkets seem to mostly go the other way - with Aldi and Lidl not having self scan checkouts even other than trials.
I think nearly half of people do some grocery shopping online these days, I wonder if that's putting more pressure on supermarkets to reduce overheads like cashiers. The lower end supermarkets seem to mostly go the other way - with Aldi and Lidl not having self scan checkouts even other than trials.
In many places here in France you can just order online on Carrefour's (or one of the other supermarkets) website and get your stuff delivered to your house, so that seems like more or less what you're looking for, unless you really want to scan physical items yourself rather than online.
Although what most people use is actually the reverse, you order the items online and go fetch them with your car, an employee puts the bags in your trunk and you're on your way. You can either pay online or on site.
Although what most people use is actually the reverse, you order the items online and go fetch them with your car, an employee puts the bags in your trunk and you're on your way. You can either pay online or on site.
Some Walmarts in the US also have the first option you mention (scanning your items as you shop). I think it’s neat, but the Amazon Go stores are still way more convenient.
I believe instead of using sensors and camera with computer vision, what if someone uses RFID systems for self checkout.
Implementing RFID would be cost effective as compared to implementing Amazon Go based approach. Where you need to install sensors and camera installed!
RFID tags are the major cost, which can be solved with bulk purchases.
Decathlon has already deployed RFID based self checkout system!
Implementing RFID would be cost effective as compared to implementing Amazon Go based approach. Where you need to install sensors and camera installed!
RFID tags are the major cost, which can be solved with bulk purchases.
Decathlon has already deployed RFID based self checkout system!
Attribuitation is one potential issue/ edge case source that I wonder how they solve. If two people enter/leave the check out area at the same time the "overlap" could get it confused. Machine vision could potentially pair better. Theoretically triangulation could help some but it brings to mind testing it by doing things like having two people walk side by side, pick up a bottle and drape it over th other's shoulders and seeing if it judges them as buying the opposite.
How does that work? Can the checkout machine read the tags inside the bag? I'd prefer if my groceries didn't advertise themselves as I walk down the street.
Checkout machines will have RFID readers. When you place your bag inside RFID reader, all tags will be read.
UHF based RFID readers are better since they have more than 1 meter of read range.
UHF based RFID readers are better since they have more than 1 meter of read range.
I think a big win for Supermarkets would be Square/Clover-like NFC payments (ie. no interaction other than tapping your phone) as the Chip+PIN dance still sucks.
Even places like Whole Food and 7-11 still require PIN + cashback + yes/no prompts on NFC payments which IMO defeats the purpose.
Even places like Whole Food and 7-11 still require PIN + cashback + yes/no prompts on NFC payments which IMO defeats the purpose.
This is a US only limitation. The rest of the world has long since moved to Paypass. The terminals are the same (no Square needed) however the US refuses to support it, i guess because of tipping.
I've paid by card in eight European countries and there were no prompts on the payment terminal other than my PIN (which I'm fine entering). More recently (in four or five countries) I've paid contactless which requires no pin under 25 euros. Also no additional prompts. Seems to be a thing of the USA, similar to lagging behind with magstripes?
They have contactless (phone/Visa etc) payments in New Zealand supermarkets for payments under $80 (about $53 USD). It only saves about 30 seconds though, not really a big deal unless you’re only buying a couple of items.
This just depends on whether a specific store has upgraded their POS. At every grocery store I go to in SF, including Whole Foods, Safeway, and Costco, every register supports NFC/Apple Pay.
Even better than Apple Pay IMO is NFC-enabled cards. Love that US issuers like Chase and Amex have finally started rolling those out.
Even better than Apple Pay IMO is NFC-enabled cards. Love that US issuers like Chase and Amex have finally started rolling those out.
Based upon my experience with the supermarkets in my area they still haven't mastered self-checkout technology. It doesn't instill confidence that they will be able to deploy this in the near to medium term. I really don't have much more confidence for the long term.
This trend to lower cost has downsides. My local Home Depot has become horrible to visit. Last time I was there I had to wait 40 minutes for a piece of hose to be cut from a reel. Workers in an adjacent aisle said they weren’t authorized to cut the hose, and the one worker on shift who was authorized was apparently busy. Once someone called for him it took ~15 minutes for him to arrive followed by 15 minutes of him helping the one guy there before me. So ~30 minutes later he cut my 4 foot length of hose, then discovered there was no SKU to scan for by-the-foot measurement. Another ten minutes passed of him radioing for a SKU to give me on a slip of paper. I felt like I should not have bothered, apparently the workers are all overworked or not permitted to help.
Meanwhile at my local ACE hardware store they manage to have everything I need in a MUCH smaller building, but they always have someone on hand if any help is needed.
So I’d rather the shop cut costs in other ways, like use smaller buildings and narrower aisles to save on rent. I like people.
Meanwhile at my local ACE hardware store they manage to have everything I need in a MUCH smaller building, but they always have someone on hand if any help is needed.
So I’d rather the shop cut costs in other ways, like use smaller buildings and narrower aisles to save on rent. I like people.
Maybe I’m an isolated case but I NEVER use self-checkout at Home Depot. The reason is simple: if Home Depot believes it can lower costs by not hiring as many cashiers, then I should get a discount by using the self-checkout. Without such a discount I always insist a human cashier checks me out. Why should I do extra work for Home Depot?
I consider the checkout stands to be the modern equivalent of elevators. Elevators used to require an operator to ask you for your floor, to manage the queue of calls, and determine an optimal order of trips up and down the shaft.
Then elevators got smarter and people now directly interface with the system.
With checkouts, it looks the same. I have a few pieces of hardware I want to buy. I can either stand in line and wait until someone scans them for me and tells me the total, or I can just scan them myself and pay.
It usually much faster to go through the self-checkout (especially with Home Depot's new set up. Just a handheld scanner and a huge touchscreen). For those times that it isn't (either a line of people, or unusual items that need special handling), then I'll go with the regular checkout.
To me, the extra work is in waiting for someone else to do what I can do faster and easier. This is similar to how gas pumping works in Oregon and New Jersey. No thanks, I'll pump my own gas please.
Then elevators got smarter and people now directly interface with the system.
With checkouts, it looks the same. I have a few pieces of hardware I want to buy. I can either stand in line and wait until someone scans them for me and tells me the total, or I can just scan them myself and pay.
It usually much faster to go through the self-checkout (especially with Home Depot's new set up. Just a handheld scanner and a huge touchscreen). For those times that it isn't (either a line of people, or unusual items that need special handling), then I'll go with the regular checkout.
To me, the extra work is in waiting for someone else to do what I can do faster and easier. This is similar to how gas pumping works in Oregon and New Jersey. No thanks, I'll pump my own gas please.
In all fairness, not having to get out and pump your own gas when it's either a) super cold outside or b) super hot outside is very convenient. also, as a former new jerseyian, the attendants are usually pretty fast and waiting for gas to be filled is not much slower than it has been pumping it by myself in other states.
That being said, I do agree that direct interface is a lot faster in most scenarios (like elevators, self-checkout). I think the most important factor is, does it reduce inconvenience or does it add "nice-to-haves". The former will always guarantee a fast adoption
That being said, I do agree that direct interface is a lot faster in most scenarios (like elevators, self-checkout). I think the most important factor is, does it reduce inconvenience or does it add "nice-to-haves". The former will always guarantee a fast adoption
> In all fairness, not having to get out and pump your own gas when it's either a) super cold outside or b) super hot outside is very convenient.
During the gradual demise of full service gas stations in the other states, there was a period when one or two of the pumps were designated full service and if you pulled up in front of them the attendant would pump your gas, in exchange for a premium of around $0.20/gallon to cover the extra wages and benefits and insurance risk etc.
The reason they discontinued it wasn't that the gas stations minded selling the service, it was that approximately nobody opted to pay extra when given the choice. Which is why they only really survive today where it's required by law -- there is no law in the other states prohibiting it, there just aren't enough people who actually want it to justify having it.
During the gradual demise of full service gas stations in the other states, there was a period when one or two of the pumps were designated full service and if you pulled up in front of them the attendant would pump your gas, in exchange for a premium of around $0.20/gallon to cover the extra wages and benefits and insurance risk etc.
The reason they discontinued it wasn't that the gas stations minded selling the service, it was that approximately nobody opted to pay extra when given the choice. Which is why they only really survive today where it's required by law -- there is no law in the other states prohibiting it, there just aren't enough people who actually want it to justify having it.
But elevator operators also served as security - they knew the occupants and could spot trouble. CCTV can be forwarded to the police after a crime but it can't say "Hey, I haven't seen you before, what unit are you in again?"
There’s a good parallel there. In a modern building, there may be a single guard in the lobby checking for badges, as well as RFID access control in each car. Similarly, most self-checkout arrangements have one cashier monitoring 4 or more self-service stations.
Self checkouts benefit you too. At least in supermarkets I always go for the self checkouts because the line moves way faster than a regular one.
That is true it saves time
I used to feel the same way until I began focusing on my diet and purchased more produce. Self checkout is a nightmare for produce. They rarely have a bar code which leads to a mystical hunt through the usually horribly slow UI. Compare that to a person who has done it so many times they have the code memorized for your apples and they can just punch it in quickly and keep going. And don’t even get me started with how excruciatingly painful it is when suddenly all of the machines need assistance and the one attendant can’t be in 6 places at once.
This is a solved problem.
Our grocery store (Wegmans) has labelmaker scales in the produce department, and the four or five digit code right next to the produce items. You bag it, weigh it, and label it yourself.
Speeds up the human checkouts, too.
Our grocery store (Wegmans) has labelmaker scales in the produce department, and the four or five digit code right next to the produce items. You bag it, weigh it, and label it yourself.
Speeds up the human checkouts, too.
This sounds like an excellent solution and perhaps I should let someone know at my local Kroger. Maybe its just something I've overlooked while shopping. Either way, I have a young child now so we mostly just use ClickList.
My grocery store has smart scales that let you print a barcode for produce that you can scan at the self checkout line. At the scale you can just search for the product by name (e.g. “apples” will suggest “honey crisp apples”).
There are definitely still issues if you need assistance. The ratio of self checkout lines to attendants is 8/1 when the store is busy.
There are definitely still issues if you need assistance. The ratio of self checkout lines to attendants is 8/1 when the store is busy.
Searching for the product by name is the exact same UI/UX at the self checkout and it becomes an exercise in frustration IMHO. The typical staples quickly come up but for apples for example there's such variety that you're often paging through a page or two. Meanwhile, the human powered checkout the operator usually just knows the 4 digit code and away they go.
As someone who's worked at a grocery store - the 4-digit code is also printed on those little produce stickers, and will generally also be on the labels with the prices on the shelves. Use this to avoid searching by name!
If you use the codes for your most common items this gets quick, some stores even post a sheet with a list of common produce codes, with stuff like apples and bananas they're often labeled even.
Produce at self checkout takes max 5-10 seconds per item once you know what you are doing
That works until there's ~only self-checkouts, then it gets slow again.
There's a knack to using them, and unless you have a generous number of them (I know of only two local stores that do), you end up getting stuck while the single staff member assigned to the self-checkouts assists customers having issues.
Plus it's not unusual for a significant number of them to be out of order, not accepting credit cards, only accepting credit cards, or just being generally temperamental.
There's a knack to using them, and unless you have a generous number of them (I know of only two local stores that do), you end up getting stuck while the single staff member assigned to the self-checkouts assists customers having issues.
Plus it's not unusual for a significant number of them to be out of order, not accepting credit cards, only accepting credit cards, or just being generally temperamental.
> That works until there's ~only self-checkouts, then it gets slow again.
I don't know about that - self checkouts are both more space-dense and require far less staff to support so each individual store could support way more customers.
Replacing human workers with robots should be considered a good thing, it's a problem with our system of economics, not with the companies increasing their level of automation.
I don't know about that - self checkouts are both more space-dense and require far less staff to support so each individual store could support way more customers.
Replacing human workers with robots should be considered a good thing, it's a problem with our system of economics, not with the companies increasing their level of automation.
By that logic you should litter because nobody pays you to use trash bins. The exact argument you use, I use as an example of American stupidity (or perhaps you'd call it an American viewpoint). You want faster self check out or not? You want them to be able to lower prices across the board? No? Alrighty, keep ruining it for everyone out of some misguided righteousness that you should be paid for it.
It's one line feeding 4-6 self-serve registers instead of one line feeding one register. I think most people would prefer shorter time in checkout vs. having someone else scan their goods for them. It's not like the checkout process is some herculean task that is only doable by trained professionals.
I agree. I never use self check out. For the reasons you state, plus I don't want to contribute to some low skill person losing the only job they'll ever be able to hold.
I'm not so self-important to think that I can't stand in line at a checkout for three minutes.
I'm not so self-important to think that I can't stand in line at a checkout for three minutes.
Do you also litter to support low skilled people to be able to pick up your trash in service of the municipality (or whoever pays for that in the USA)?
I wonder if it has anything to do with rising minimum wage?
Far more to do with the decreasing costs of automation than minimum wage. These jobs will be automated, depressing wages only delays the inevitable.
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Just cut it yourself.
Which they don't let you do, perhaps for "insurance" reasons, and if you do it, you won't have a slip with a code on it to check out with.
A couple times in a hurry when I can't get any help, I've cut it myself and taken a picture of the sku on the shelf. That seemed to get me through checkout.
This is a company that pisses on its customers. Why bother doing business with them at all?
I don't suppose that was East Palo Alto Home Depot, and either Menlo Park Hardware or Hassett Hardware in Palo Alto?
Those two Ace Hardware stores are amazing! They have so much stuff in such a small place, and always have helpful people.
Those two Ace Hardware stores are amazing! They have so much stuff in such a small place, and always have helpful people.
I’m on the coast. Home Depot in Daly City and Ace in Pacifica or Hasset Hardware in Half Moon Bay. Similar breed of shops and well stocked!