'Waffle House Index' is a real thing during disasters(eu.usatoday.com)
eu.usatoday.com
'Waffle House Index' is a real thing during disasters
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/01/hurricane-dorian-waffle-house-index-disasters/2187708001/
57 comments
I really admire Waffle House's dedication. They can't get everyone's power back on or grocery shelves restocked, but providing a normal meal for people after a disaster situation is really valuable.
Speaking of disasters, I wonder how many people actually follow the government's recommendation for things like basic disaster kits.
Round numbers? Something approximating zero...
In all seriousness, I actually sat down and read the FEMA recommendations on things to keep on hand. It's surprisingly thorough and surprisingly difficult to keep all of it in stock, rotated so that it doesn't spoil and checked on on a regular basis. Growing up, my mom was an avid coupon shopper, not necessarily because we needed it, just because she could. That meant that we had a pantry that sorta, kinda resembled an edible version of a prepper -- no MREs, but enough commercial and home canned food to last several months without any rationing even without power. Dad also kept a 200 gallon gas tank due to bad memories of the fuel rationing and prices in the '70's. We were as prepared as you could reasonably expect, but we were still not as prepared as FEMA recommended in many ways. These days, in relatively expensive town, in a relatively small house, I cannot possibly keep everything on hand that FEMA recommends, even on the light kit for a few weeks, but I at least make a passing attempt.
In all seriousness, I actually sat down and read the FEMA recommendations on things to keep on hand. It's surprisingly thorough and surprisingly difficult to keep all of it in stock, rotated so that it doesn't spoil and checked on on a regular basis. Growing up, my mom was an avid coupon shopper, not necessarily because we needed it, just because she could. That meant that we had a pantry that sorta, kinda resembled an edible version of a prepper -- no MREs, but enough commercial and home canned food to last several months without any rationing even without power. Dad also kept a 200 gallon gas tank due to bad memories of the fuel rationing and prices in the '70's. We were as prepared as you could reasonably expect, but we were still not as prepared as FEMA recommended in many ways. These days, in relatively expensive town, in a relatively small house, I cannot possibly keep everything on hand that FEMA recommends, even on the light kit for a few weeks, but I at least make a passing attempt.
The problem with FEMA’s recommendations is that they’re too general.
If you will have a water supply no matter what (I’m near the Great Lakes), Canned foods are a waste of space and weight. Dry beans, rice, a 5gal collapsible container and purification tablets (or bleach) are better.
If you will have a water supply no matter what (I’m near the Great Lakes), Canned foods are a waste of space and weight. Dry beans, rice, a 5gal collapsible container and purification tablets (or bleach) are better.
> If you will have a water supply no matter what (I’m near the Great Lakes)
Algae blooms make this no guarantee (and in fact more likely than other disasters people do keep in mind): https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/us/lifting-ban-toledo-say...
Algae blooms make this no guarantee (and in fact more likely than other disasters people do keep in mind): https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/us/lifting-ban-toledo-say...
How much space did that take up? I live in a compact apartment in a European city and don't think I could possibly stock more than 2 weeks, there's just not enough space.
And you probably can’t even get to the water from your toilet’s upper reservoir ;)
> 200 gallon gas tank
That...is a lot.
IMO to pass the 50 percentile, you need a two weeks of canned food, 20 gallons of water, and a first aid kit.
That...is a lot.
IMO to pass the 50 percentile, you need a two weeks of canned food, 20 gallons of water, and a first aid kit.
If google's right, canned food doesn't go bad if properly stored though taste will change, and in any case the recommended minimum is three days of food and water.
Depends on the can. The "vintage military ration collection crowd" (yes, that's a thing) says that after decades you start to get some nasty leaching from can -> food, especially if it's an acidic food product (e.g. tomato sauce).
Nowadays, they coat the cans. But I'm pretty sure whatever tests the coatings go through aren't simulating 20+ years of storage.
Nowadays, they coat the cans. But I'm pretty sure whatever tests the coatings go through aren't simulating 20+ years of storage.
You can see those recommendations at https://www.ready.gov/
Waffle House, better than The French Laundry:
https://youtu.be/bct8stbZafI
(RIP Anthony Bourdain.)
https://youtu.be/bct8stbZafI
(RIP Anthony Bourdain.)
The example of strength of centralized organization
Seems to me the organization is decentralized, but the CCC is centralized. Sounds military-esque, until you realize that in book "Team of Teams" General McChrystal makes a case of decentralized bottom up faster acting organizations.
an organization is centralized by definition, it's just a matter of scope, the arbitrary place where you draw the line depends on your politics.
> an organization is centralized by definition
No, it's not. An organization can be distributed/decentralized as well as centralized. “Organization” does not specify the latter in opposition to the former.
No, it's not. An organization can be distributed/decentralized as well as centralized. “Organization” does not specify the latter in opposition to the former.
*as well as centralized?...sure it can, which means that it's centralized. What it cannot be is completely independent.
> *as well as centralized?...sure it can, which means that it's centralized.
No, you aren't understanding. “organization” can label something that is centralized or something decentralized/distributed. Or it can be anywhere in between. “Organization” implies some structure, it doesn't imply that the structure is heirarchical/centralized, though.
> What it cannot be is completely independent.
Yes, whether centralized or distributed an organization can also be completely independent (or not, either way), which is a separate issue.
No, you aren't understanding. “organization” can label something that is centralized or something decentralized/distributed. Or it can be anywhere in between. “Organization” implies some structure, it doesn't imply that the structure is heirarchical/centralized, though.
> What it cannot be is completely independent.
Yes, whether centralized or distributed an organization can also be completely independent (or not, either way), which is a separate issue.
Whenever I read about this I always wonder if this is one of those modern dystopia things where a business is endangering its employees in order to stay open in a disaster zone.
Like what kind of waivers are people in these Jump Teams signing?
Like what kind of waivers are people in these Jump Teams signing?
That is an exceedingly cynical way of looking at it. People usually volunteer to do this kind of thing and have no small amount of personal pride that they are able to help their neighbors in a disaster. It is a very positive experience for the people that do it, and they are often some of the first people on the ground. This is a manifestation of the self-reliance bias of American culture, they want to fix things themselves when disasters happen.
Disaster response in the US is completely driven by these kinds of community-oriented actions by private individuals and companies, and it has a long history of being highly effective.
Disaster response in the US is completely driven by these kinds of community-oriented actions by private individuals and companies, and it has a long history of being highly effective.
I've been in the hurricane center at a large retailer (last week, in fact). Aside from freezing prices at before-storm levels, no one who volunteers for the 24/7 emergency staffing is thinking about the dollars. Sales take care of themselves.
They're doing it because it feels good to help people.
And because rerouting truckloads of supplies effectively at 2 AM means someone in the affected area will be able get to their nearest store and get the things they need.
I'm not sure why the comments here are so !%^&ing jaded, but sometimes you do the right thing... simply because it's right.
They're doing it because it feels good to help people.
And because rerouting truckloads of supplies effectively at 2 AM means someone in the affected area will be able get to their nearest store and get the things they need.
I'm not sure why the comments here are so !%^&ing jaded, but sometimes you do the right thing... simply because it's right.
I totally agree. I think a lot of people think this way and just don’t express their opinions because they have nothing to prove. But there are also lots of selfish people that don’t and they’ll probably never get this.
I don’t think it’s extremely cynical. Depending on the culture of the company it would be quite possibly that there was pressure - subtle, or less so - put on employees.
For every good thing a company does, there’ll always be a HN commenter ready to explain why it’s exploitation.
How many volunteers are doing it because they need the hours?
Does WH pay employees who can't show so they can still cover their bills?
Is it ethical to pay someone $7/hour (the average wage of a WH employee) and then ask them if they would volunteer to travel to work in a hurricane?
Does WH pay employees who can't show so they can still cover their bills?
Is it ethical to pay someone $7/hour (the average wage of a WH employee) and then ask them if they would volunteer to travel to work in a hurricane?
Citation on the average wage? Federal minimum is $7.25/hr, and at least in my midwestern town, McDonald's is paying $11.25/hr, starting, so that seems shockingly low as an average. Or is that the average of the tipped staff, before tips?
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Waffle_House%2...
https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Waffle-House/salaries
But really, if the employee was making $11.25/hour, would that somehow make it more ethical? $22k/year is still borderline impoverished for a 3 person household: https://www.thebalance.com/federal-poverty-level-definition-...
https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Waffle-House/salaries
But really, if the employee was making $11.25/hour, would that somehow make it more ethical? $22k/year is still borderline impoverished for a 3 person household: https://www.thebalance.com/federal-poverty-level-definition-...
Does it?
Here’s the kind of house that $35k BUYS you in Cleveland:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2840-E-122nd-St-Cleveland...
I can only assume the neighbourhood and/or it’s schools are atrocious, but damn.
Here’s the kind of house that $35k BUYS you in Cleveland:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2840-E-122nd-St-Cleveland...
I can only assume the neighbourhood and/or it’s schools are atrocious, but damn.
Wouldn't it be $44k/year?
The usual estimate is 2000 hours/year.
Yes, per person, and two people who can work in the household.
I don't think it's ethical to pay that little period, but I don't see Waffle House commercials talking about this either, so if the company isn't trying to profit off of it and the employees want to do it I'm all for it.
Ericsson has a similar response program in place for disasters around the world. They call it "Ericsson Response".
The goal is to setup GSM-based emergency networks from scratch very quickly in severe disaster areas where infrastructure is disrupted by natural or other kinds of disasters.
For example: Nepal after the devastating earthquake in 2015.
They're flying in containers of GSM network equipment, diesel generators, fuel, along with technical people to get things going. Then they'll hand out SIMs/phones to emergency workers ASAP in order to empower logistics in a disaster zone.
It's manned by (obviously still paid) volunteers out of their normal working force.
This is based from Sweden mostly, I think. I'd expect the usual foreign travel insurance thing, perhaps with an additional hostage negotiation insurance for particular regions.
...
Presumably neither of these would be needed for Waffle House employees from the US who travel to another US state?
For well-run companies these kinds of things are a win-win thing. The company gets more loyalty, the employees get more motivation and the "end-users" get help. Perhaps the Waffle House is just a well-run company?
The goal is to setup GSM-based emergency networks from scratch very quickly in severe disaster areas where infrastructure is disrupted by natural or other kinds of disasters.
For example: Nepal after the devastating earthquake in 2015.
They're flying in containers of GSM network equipment, diesel generators, fuel, along with technical people to get things going. Then they'll hand out SIMs/phones to emergency workers ASAP in order to empower logistics in a disaster zone.
It's manned by (obviously still paid) volunteers out of their normal working force.
This is based from Sweden mostly, I think. I'd expect the usual foreign travel insurance thing, perhaps with an additional hostage negotiation insurance for particular regions.
...
Presumably neither of these would be needed for Waffle House employees from the US who travel to another US state?
For well-run companies these kinds of things are a win-win thing. The company gets more loyalty, the employees get more motivation and the "end-users" get help. Perhaps the Waffle House is just a well-run company?
> They're flying
Grunts are, the executive staff, directors, and share holders ain't doin' shit.
Grunts are, the executive staff, directors, and share holders ain't doin' shit.
> Perhaps the Waffle House is just a well-run company?
Forgive me for sounding cynical but I'm going to play Devil' Advocate and ask: Are they well run, or opportunistic?
In an area hit by disaster any mom & pops are likely going to be slower to reopen. They have to wait for the insurance company. They have to worry about the homes and family. Etc.
WH on the other hand can finance themselves while they wait for the insurance cheque. The out of town employees don't have local home and local family worries. Etc.
WH might be well run. But they might also simply be in the best position to rise to the top in disaster areas.
Forgive me for sounding cynical but I'm going to play Devil' Advocate and ask: Are they well run, or opportunistic?
In an area hit by disaster any mom & pops are likely going to be slower to reopen. They have to wait for the insurance company. They have to worry about the homes and family. Etc.
WH on the other hand can finance themselves while they wait for the insurance cheque. The out of town employees don't have local home and local family worries. Etc.
WH might be well run. But they might also simply be in the best position to rise to the top in disaster areas.
What exactly is your problem with them helping? What do you think is wrong with it? Do you think they should stay out of business because other local businesses have to? How does that help anyone? Their suppliers, customers, local employees, relief workers, other businesses?
I said " but I'm going to play Devil' Advocate and ask:"
Translation: There's another way WE can look at this. I'm not taking sides. I don't care about the WH one way or another. If you have a problem with the idea(s) tabled then address those ideas. That's all.
Put another way: Don't shoot the messenger.
Translation: There's another way WE can look at this. I'm not taking sides. I don't care about the WH one way or another. If you have a problem with the idea(s) tabled then address those ideas. That's all.
Put another way: Don't shoot the messenger.
I am addressing your ideas - they're cynical, selfish, and unnecessarily assume the worst in people who are working hard to help others.
https://xkcd.com/1432/
https://xkcd.com/1432/
Whwn did facts become "my ideas"?
If you want to dispute WH's advantages over M&Ps in the context of disaster, please feel free to do so. Just keep in mind I don't own the truths listed.
If you want to dispute WH's advantages over M&Ps in the context of disaster, please feel free to do so. Just keep in mind I don't own the truths listed.
You are inches away from a sudden lightbulb moment that people's ability to have a positive impact is not that closely related to their intentions.
It isn't cynical to claim they are being opportunistic as much as it is myopic. If you want all recovery efforts to be done by gloomy stoics who are clawing back at a lifestyle stolen from them by cruel nature while telling heartbreaking stories about how hard it is to rebuild ... that will miss the opportunity that the situation will be quickly and dispassionately sorted out by some faceless corporation exasperated that its profits are down.
People like to think of capitalism as some sort of siphon system moving comfort from poor to rich, but it is a very powerful stabilising force. If there was an economic equilibrium and a disaster breaks it, letting capitalism happen will restore most of the status quo extremely quickly.
Saying that that is opportunistic is simply framing a positive thing negatively. If people are happy to do something out of their own self interest that is better than them doing it out of a sense of charity; and much more sustainable.
It isn't cynical to claim they are being opportunistic as much as it is myopic. If you want all recovery efforts to be done by gloomy stoics who are clawing back at a lifestyle stolen from them by cruel nature while telling heartbreaking stories about how hard it is to rebuild ... that will miss the opportunity that the situation will be quickly and dispassionately sorted out by some faceless corporation exasperated that its profits are down.
People like to think of capitalism as some sort of siphon system moving comfort from poor to rich, but it is a very powerful stabilising force. If there was an economic equilibrium and a disaster breaks it, letting capitalism happen will restore most of the status quo extremely quickly.
Saying that that is opportunistic is simply framing a positive thing negatively. If people are happy to do something out of their own self interest that is better than them doing it out of a sense of charity; and much more sustainable.
Didn't we already try the bread and circuses thing? Capitalism is exploitative by definition, civilizations lasted longer that it has existed so how "stabilizing" it is is certainly not a given, in fact there's evidence for the exact opposite. Capitalism doesn't "restore equilibrium", it dictates it, it's authoritarian and non-merit based.
Capitalism is the private ownership of capital. That's the definition.
Capitalism is also 100% merit-based and unauthoritarian. Nobody is forcing people to use Amazon or McDonalds or Walmart. You might be confusing it with socialism, which is authoritarian as hell and has no regard for merit...
Capitalism is also 100% merit-based and unauthoritarian. Nobody is forcing people to use Amazon or McDonalds or Walmart. You might be confusing it with socialism, which is authoritarian as hell and has no regard for merit...
> Capitalism is also 100% merit-based and unauthoritarian.
Except for inherited wealth, government subsidies and large-business-friendly tax cuts, and regulatory capture (among many other examples)?
Even for people who believe in capitalism as a religion, that statement is a bit too much.
Except for inherited wealth, government subsidies and large-business-friendly tax cuts, and regulatory capture (among many other examples)?
Even for people who believe in capitalism as a religion, that statement is a bit too much.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't?
They "only" have about 2.1k locations in the US - one outlet per 163k people in the country. This doesn't seem to me like a "mom & pop"-killer. (Subways has 24k locations, as a point of comparison.)
They "only" have about 2.1k locations in the US - one outlet per 163k people in the country. This doesn't seem to me like a "mom & pop"-killer. (Subways has 24k locations, as a point of comparison.)
To be clear, I did NOT call them a mom & pop kills. I said that __in the context of a disaster__ WH has an __obvious__ and distinct advantage over M&Ps.
If you'd like to discuss and/or address that, please do.
If you'd like to discuss and/or address that, please do.
> Forgive me for sounding cynical but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and ask: Are they well run, or opportunistic?
If they helped you during a disaster would it matter?
If they helped you during a disaster would it matter?
If you understood what"play Devil's Advocate" meant would you have still left this comment? SMH
If it's _actually_ run by employees who volunteer that'd be cool, but my personal experience of service industry work is that you are are volunteered to do something or you are volunteered to be unemployed.
Impossible to know unless some WH employees actually weigh in.
Impossible to know unless some WH employees actually weigh in.
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If any profit goes to the employees, I'm on board.
Presumably they're volunteers and get compensated for it? Some people enjoy that kind of challenge and thrive from helping people and communities.
I think in general most people would do it to help others, because if things were different you might need the help.
...look for the helpers
...look for the helpers
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