Ask HN: where's a good place to look for smart contract work?
35 comments
I did contract work for 5 years before founding a product company. Most of our work came from two sources: reputation and relationships. Reputation took several years to build, so it isn't 6-month solution.
Relationships, on the other hand, can be built quickly. The best relationships for us were relationships with other developers. We've gotten dozens of good leads this way, and have passed out dozens to other developers. What technologies are you going to use? Local user groups for those technologies can be a great place to start. Figure out where the local momentum is (Ruby? Python? User Experience? Startups?) and meet people.
Relationships, on the other hand, can be built quickly. The best relationships for us were relationships with other developers. We've gotten dozens of good leads this way, and have passed out dozens to other developers. What technologies are you going to use? Local user groups for those technologies can be a great place to start. Figure out where the local momentum is (Ruby? Python? User Experience? Startups?) and meet people.
How do you advertise yourself for contract work? Do you have a one person company, or you are just a contractor? While both things may in the end mean more or less the same, their perception might be different and you could be able to get paid more in the first than in the second case. Or am I wrong?
I went from 2 people (myself and a partner) to 8, so I didn't do the individual thing myself.
In my experience, a single person ("John Smith" or "John Smith Consulting LLC") isn't at a big disadvantage against a small company (John Smith as sole member of "Razor Consulting LLC" or whatever). We would often compete with, and work alongside, individuals. It's all about getting your brand out there. You want people to hear about and trust your brand - whether it's your name as an individual, or a company name. But don't confuse people by pushing both. I actually recommend using your individual name unless you want to grow bigger than 2 full-time employees. I have several friends who are individual contractors, and most of them have incorporated under another name. But they are known by their personal name, not their company name. That's their brand, so to speak.
In my experience, a single person ("John Smith" or "John Smith Consulting LLC") isn't at a big disadvantage against a small company (John Smith as sole member of "Razor Consulting LLC" or whatever). We would often compete with, and work alongside, individuals. It's all about getting your brand out there. You want people to hear about and trust your brand - whether it's your name as an individual, or a company name. But don't confuse people by pushing both. I actually recommend using your individual name unless you want to grow bigger than 2 full-time employees. I have several friends who are individual contractors, and most of them have incorporated under another name. But they are known by their personal name, not their company name. That's their brand, so to speak.
I'm currently using my name plus a descriptive word (say "Smith Software" or "Graham Tech"), and if I think about it, what I'm doing most is contract work myself (along with some consulting). Do you find it advisable?
Tell me if this answers your question: if I were you, I would form an LLC ("Smith Software"), but push your personal name ("John Smith") as you network, look for jobs, introduce yourself, etc. So Smith Software goes on your contracts, and (maybe?) is your domain name, but you want people to get to know _you_, not Smith Software. Especially if you're good. "John Smith the ruby/python/design expert" is a perfectly legitimate way to be known. It's easier than "Smith Software, the small expert ruby/python/design house", IMO.
I know 10-20 independent programmers and designers in my area, and in every single case, I think of them by their personal names. I'm sure they all have some LLC name, but in most cases, I don't know what it is. Even if they put it on their business card, I'm more likely to refer them to someone as an individual ("I know this good designer - Mick Jones - you should talk to him") rather than by a company name ("I know this good design shop - Compelling Solutions - you should check them out.")
I think this changes when you grow beyond 2 full-time folks. At 2, people can remember both of your names. But beyond there, they're likely to remember the company name, plus one of the principles. ("You should check out Compelling Solutions - talk to Mick Jones.")
At least that's my experience. :)
I know 10-20 independent programmers and designers in my area, and in every single case, I think of them by their personal names. I'm sure they all have some LLC name, but in most cases, I don't know what it is. Even if they put it on their business card, I'm more likely to refer them to someone as an individual ("I know this good designer - Mick Jones - you should talk to him") rather than by a company name ("I know this good design shop - Compelling Solutions - you should check them out.")
I think this changes when you grow beyond 2 full-time folks. At 2, people can remember both of your names. But beyond there, they're likely to remember the company name, plus one of the principles. ("You should check out Compelling Solutions - talk to Mick Jones.")
At least that's my experience. :)
This is great advice, thank you. An only extra question... being a single person means that I can't do more than one or two development projects at once, but at many times clients ask me to (and I have to tell them I can't, I'm already busy, etc). Do you think it's a problem? How do single contractors handle this?
I guess it's a lot easier if you push yourself as an independent programmer, as it's reasonable that a single guy is already busy at the time you call him... but as soon as you introduce a company name I think the expectations change. So that's an extra reason to follow your advice.
I guess it's a lot easier if you push yourself as an independent programmer, as it's reasonable that a single guy is already busy at the time you call him... but as soon as you introduce a company name I think the expectations change. So that's an extra reason to follow your advice.
My advice: Attend networking events, meetups etc.
Tell people you are looking for work, most of my work has come through friends (which you have seem to done)
Charge what your worth beginning day one, maybe cut your personal friends a discount, but doing work for next to nothing to build your portfolio is great, but trying to raise your price afterwards is very very hard.
To answer your original question: check dice.com and craigslist, but dice.com will be true contract jobs that don't want companies that consult, but contractor (most of the time) and craiglist will be full of build digg for 10$/hr types of people(maybe they'd hire you on for what your worth but I doubt it).
Tell people you are looking for work, most of my work has come through friends (which you have seem to done)
Charge what your worth beginning day one, maybe cut your personal friends a discount, but doing work for next to nothing to build your portfolio is great, but trying to raise your price afterwards is very very hard.
To answer your original question: check dice.com and craigslist, but dice.com will be true contract jobs that don't want companies that consult, but contractor (most of the time) and craiglist will be full of build digg for 10$/hr types of people(maybe they'd hire you on for what your worth but I doubt it).
How do you know what you're worth?
I've read "post your salary" threads and other things that show up on yc or programming.reddit, but I still can't really tell.
I've read "post your salary" threads and other things that show up on yc or programming.reddit, but I still can't really tell.
My short and fast rule Is charge about 4-6x your hourly salary of doing equivalent work. You pay more taxes, you are not receiving benefits, and most of all you are doing difficult work. Of course there are exceptions to this rule.
If you make $20/hr slinging code. Consulting that be $80/hr. May seem high, but really it is quite low. The big boys charge $250/hr. I think that rate is fair for small businesses.
If you need justification for charging a certain fee. Research numbers on how much it costs to actually hire someone full-time and all the extra costs associated with it. Time, Interviews, Job board placements, training, benefits(big costs long haul). If your being hired to do something you know and pretty much getting going on day one, they should be paying a decent sum of money for you, because you had already done the legwork, you step in and work.
You are also temporary to them if the contract ends(a.k.a they fire you), as employee you get unemployment(extra cost to the company), exit interviews, more time and money wasted. If you an IC the contract ends, what are you going to do. Look for the next gig, more time spent with no money coming in.
My favorite pricing quote is the one about the artist, name escapes me. A lady asks him to paint her caricature of face and he get out a piece of paper, paints a few lines and she says it's amazing and ask how much, he says 5k or something. She says thats ridiculous it took you five minutes. He responds no it took me my whole life.
I'm not saying I'm picasso or monet or whatever, but the work you do today will be added to your overall experience and knowledge that you will apply to the jobs of tomorrow, and you should be compensated for that. i also don't change $1000/min (it be nice) - sorry for rambling
If you make $20/hr slinging code. Consulting that be $80/hr. May seem high, but really it is quite low. The big boys charge $250/hr. I think that rate is fair for small businesses.
If you need justification for charging a certain fee. Research numbers on how much it costs to actually hire someone full-time and all the extra costs associated with it. Time, Interviews, Job board placements, training, benefits(big costs long haul). If your being hired to do something you know and pretty much getting going on day one, they should be paying a decent sum of money for you, because you had already done the legwork, you step in and work.
You are also temporary to them if the contract ends(a.k.a they fire you), as employee you get unemployment(extra cost to the company), exit interviews, more time and money wasted. If you an IC the contract ends, what are you going to do. Look for the next gig, more time spent with no money coming in.
My favorite pricing quote is the one about the artist, name escapes me. A lady asks him to paint her caricature of face and he get out a piece of paper, paints a few lines and she says it's amazing and ask how much, he says 5k or something. She says thats ridiculous it took you five minutes. He responds no it took me my whole life.
I'm not saying I'm picasso or monet or whatever, but the work you do today will be added to your overall experience and knowledge that you will apply to the jobs of tomorrow, and you should be compensated for that. i also don't change $1000/min (it be nice) - sorry for rambling
>My favorite pricing quote is the one about the artist, name escapes me.
I've heard that story. It's probably apocryphal, but instructional.
The artist is Picasso (at least in the variation I encountered).
I've heard that story. It's probably apocryphal, but instructional.
The artist is Picasso (at least in the variation I encountered).
The "big boys" in code don't charge $250/hour -- that's SAP or similar platform specialist territory.
Code generalists run $80-$150/hour for truly excellent engineers.
I do work in the Albany and NYC markets, and $120/hour is typical. $700-$1200/day is a reasonable range to consider in the NYC market. Downgrade that for most other markets.
Code generalists run $80-$150/hour for truly excellent engineers.
I do work in the Albany and NYC markets, and $120/hour is typical. $700-$1200/day is a reasonable range to consider in the NYC market. Downgrade that for most other markets.
How do you know what you're worth?
Think about what you need to make, and double it. Then double it again. You're probably getting close to what you ought to charge. I expect to pay $50-$200/hour when I hire a contractor (depending on whether they are famous for what they do or not), and when I did contract work I billed at $125/hour. I was reasonably well-known for the field I contracted in, with a published book and code sprinkled throughout the project I supported, and my name appearing daily on the related mailing list--I probably should have been charging more, as I never lost a customer because I cost too much.
Someone once told me that if you, as a contractor, don't get a response of "fuck you!" in response to your estimates about half the time, you aren't charging enough. That's probably really good advice. You'll work less, but work better, because you can really devote yourself to the clients you do have. This assumes that you are really good. If you aren't really good, then you'll just have to take what work you can get at whatever rate you can get. Doing fantastic work fast is more important than working cheap, because people will recommend you if you're good and expensive (they'll say, "This guy is a bit pricey, but he does amazing work") but probably not if you do crap work and don't pay enough attention to them (if they say anything at all about you, they'll say, "I can never get this guy on the phone, and he does sloppy work, but he works cheap").
If you were hiring a contractor, which of those choices would you call? And which kind of customer would you rather work for? The cheap customer always demands even more than he's already getting, and expects to be treated like a king for it. The customer that wants great work is grateful when he finally finds someone that will deliver--at just about any price.
Also note that the larger the corporation, the more you need to charge to deal with their red tape. You will have to invoice according to their rules, you will have to keep yourself updated in their vendor database, you will have to deal with additional tax forms, and you will have to get sign-off on projects from more people. Working in a big corporation will also drain the life from you at an alarming clip, because they will have meetings over the stupidest crap--you'll be getting paid huge sums for eating donuts and listening to endless arguments over what to name a table or a variable, but you will probably die a little inside, as well. After my first couple of experiences with big corporations, I began to charge extra for soul death (that's not how it appeared on the invoice...I just added another $25/hour to the rate).
Think about what you need to make, and double it. Then double it again. You're probably getting close to what you ought to charge. I expect to pay $50-$200/hour when I hire a contractor (depending on whether they are famous for what they do or not), and when I did contract work I billed at $125/hour. I was reasonably well-known for the field I contracted in, with a published book and code sprinkled throughout the project I supported, and my name appearing daily on the related mailing list--I probably should have been charging more, as I never lost a customer because I cost too much.
Someone once told me that if you, as a contractor, don't get a response of "fuck you!" in response to your estimates about half the time, you aren't charging enough. That's probably really good advice. You'll work less, but work better, because you can really devote yourself to the clients you do have. This assumes that you are really good. If you aren't really good, then you'll just have to take what work you can get at whatever rate you can get. Doing fantastic work fast is more important than working cheap, because people will recommend you if you're good and expensive (they'll say, "This guy is a bit pricey, but he does amazing work") but probably not if you do crap work and don't pay enough attention to them (if they say anything at all about you, they'll say, "I can never get this guy on the phone, and he does sloppy work, but he works cheap").
If you were hiring a contractor, which of those choices would you call? And which kind of customer would you rather work for? The cheap customer always demands even more than he's already getting, and expects to be treated like a king for it. The customer that wants great work is grateful when he finally finds someone that will deliver--at just about any price.
Also note that the larger the corporation, the more you need to charge to deal with their red tape. You will have to invoice according to their rules, you will have to keep yourself updated in their vendor database, you will have to deal with additional tax forms, and you will have to get sign-off on projects from more people. Working in a big corporation will also drain the life from you at an alarming clip, because they will have meetings over the stupidest crap--you'll be getting paid huge sums for eating donuts and listening to endless arguments over what to name a table or a variable, but you will probably die a little inside, as well. After my first couple of experiences with big corporations, I began to charge extra for soul death (that's not how it appeared on the invoice...I just added another $25/hour to the rate).
> Someone once told me that if you, as a contractor, don't get a response of "fuck you!" in response to your estimates about half the time, you aren't charging enough.
The variation of that story that I once heard was this: when the interviewer asks your hourly rate, tell them, then punch them in the face. If they're more shocked by being punched in the face, you aren't asking enough.
The variation of that story that I once heard was this: when the interviewer asks your hourly rate, tell them, then punch them in the face. If they're more shocked by being punched in the face, you aren't asking enough.
I got this advice from a couple of people, one the Engineering VP at the last job [i.e.: 40hr/wk nominal, W2] I had, back in '79, one the CEO of the company before that (whom I consulted with for ca 20 years during the 80s, 90s, and 00s) after he started up his own consulting/contracting company.
Basically, take your desired salary[including expenses/fringes], divide by 100, and that's your daily rate. You can come down a little for long term work, say more than 2 weeks.
Basically, take your desired salary[including expenses/fringes], divide by 100, and that's your daily rate. You can come down a little for long term work, say more than 2 weeks.
And notice a flaw in all "what I am billing threads": they are positing a 40-hour week average, whole year round. Maybe in a hyperactive market it is possible to do that, but I think it would be fair to posit at most 2/3 uptime (out of about 250 work days per year). Why so low? You will spend considerable periods in downtime, looking for gigs.
Only the good posts tend to talk about that. You will not 40 on billable stuff, unless you are crazy. There is a bunch of admin/business work to account for, that leaves you billing less than 40 hours per week, at least with still having some sort of life.
Really? Sign me up, sounds like a vacation.
It's not. You're looking for gigs, which means networking, interviewing etc. Marketing yourself essentially.
Vacation is when you don't work.
A quick and dirty baseline is to take your yearly salary and divide by 1000, giving you an hourly rate.
This is a good rule of thumb, and probably the most common one. It's basically identical to 2x your hourly rate as an employee. (FT employment is often figured at 2000 hours/year.)
So if you want the equivalent of $75,000/year, charge $75/hour.
So if you want the equivalent of $75,000/year, charge $75/hour.
"2x your hourly rate as an employee"
Maybe if you can manage to pretend that your employer doesn't pay half of your social security taxes =)
Maybe if you can manage to pretend that your employer doesn't pay half of your social security taxes =)
That's part of why you have to figure for a rate so much higher than your salaried rate.
You didn't say what sort of contract work.
You are doing a "startup" yet getting into contract work is also a "startup." They are both businesses and any business takes time to build up to a point where you can make a living from that business. It also takes time. There will likely be times when you are freelancing where you don't have enough time or energy left over at the end of the day to work on your other projects.
Networking is definitely important for freelancing. You have to let people know what you know and that you are available. Finding someone to work on a project can be hard and you need to be on the top of the short lists of candidates when people are looking for help.
Another way to start freelancing is by establishing yourself as a known expert in niche communities. This takes time and effort but when you get to that point and people are looking for dev help in that niche then your name will come up.
You are doing a "startup" yet getting into contract work is also a "startup." They are both businesses and any business takes time to build up to a point where you can make a living from that business. It also takes time. There will likely be times when you are freelancing where you don't have enough time or energy left over at the end of the day to work on your other projects.
Networking is definitely important for freelancing. You have to let people know what you know and that you are available. Finding someone to work on a project can be hard and you need to be on the top of the short lists of candidates when people are looking for help.
Another way to start freelancing is by establishing yourself as a known expert in niche communities. This takes time and effort but when you get to that point and people are looking for dev help in that niche then your name will come up.
I should mention that I worked as a contractor for 5 years, so I'm familiar with how to manage contract-based employment. However, this was on the opposite coast, and since I've been in the Bay Area, I've been working at other people's startups. I'm a bit out of the contractor networking loop.
What I'm looking for is some piece of something a startup wants or needs to do immediately, but doesn't have time.
I'm altering the details on this example so that I'm not breaking an NDA, but the most promising candidate out of the leads I've received is an online service that needs a simple desktop based upload/sync application. I'd be writing the upload/sync app. Stuff like that is what I'm most interested in.
What I'm looking for is some piece of something a startup wants or needs to do immediately, but doesn't have time.
I'm altering the details on this example so that I'm not breaking an NDA, but the most promising candidate out of the leads I've received is an online service that needs a simple desktop based upload/sync application. I'd be writing the upload/sync app. Stuff like that is what I'm most interested in.
look on any of the niche job boards.
authenticjobs.com is a good start, and it has some links to aggregators where you can spread out your search. also, freelanceswitch.com's job board is decently good.
they're not all designed for freelance/contract work, but they do have plenty of postings for it.
authenticjobs.com is a good start, and it has some links to aggregators where you can spread out your search. also, freelanceswitch.com's job board is decently good.
they're not all designed for freelance/contract work, but they do have plenty of postings for it.
cool - thanks!
no problem, i feel your pain :)
also note that, typically, elance/odesk/guru/etc. isn't worth trolling for work, because they're dominated by cheap, lower quality labor and project-based pricing.
also note that, typically, elance/odesk/guru/etc. isn't worth trolling for work, because they're dominated by cheap, lower quality labor and project-based pricing.
I've found small contract jobs through Dice and jobs.perl.org.
http://www.dice.com/ http://jobs.perl.org/
http://www.dice.com/ http://jobs.perl.org/
Firstly, congrats!
Try the gigs board on 37 signals: http://gigs.37signals.com/gigs
Try the gigs board on 37 signals: http://gigs.37signals.com/gigs
If you have cash in reserve until the end of the year, why not get serious and launch your own product based startup?
With some emphasis in marketing, you could quite easily bank $5k-10k from the product and be in a good position to show off your project (that is already making moola!) for winter YC.
With some emphasis in marketing, you could quite easily bank $5k-10k from the product and be in a good position to show off your project (that is already making moola!) for winter YC.
Because I went broke at a previous startup and am paranoid about having cash in the bank.
Don't listen to the commenters saying "just go for it" -- having cash in the bank is important (if you aren't wasting time earning trying to get the work to do so).
As long as you stay busy, building a buffer is a good thing.
As long as you stay busy, building a buffer is a good thing.
You're missing out on a great opportunity because of fear. If you are a good programmer, you can get work instantly (call some friends, tell them you are broke and need work).
What are you going to regret more in the future, winging it and seeing if you had what it took to create a startup even if it goes down in flames or being super careful but not being able to see if you had what it took to make something awesome?
What are you going to regret more in the future, winging it and seeing if you had what it took to create a startup even if it goes down in flames or being super careful but not being able to see if you had what it took to make something awesome?
If you're a Django person, you probably already know about http://www.djangogigs.com. Some of the opportunities there are short term.
Check out meetups, web 2.0 parties, and ppl you know within your hacking community.
I'm looking for something with cool people, but in a decidedly temporary arrangement.