Ask HN: Ex-atheists/agnostics, I will be 50 y/0 soon. Should I explore Faith?
49 comments
It is not so much as faith being irrational, I guess..but the actions of some people who subscribe to that faith that makes me want to belong to the club.
I don’t say this lightly as I realize it sounds like a very superficial excuse. But it’s not. There is a constant parallel process of mirroring when we subscribe to any group philosophy.
If faith is a powerful shaper of the spirit /personality/values, every member is a review. Almost all religions get a mean 2.5 stars out of 5.
So every time faith has to be internal and personal to be effective. If faith is internal and personal, then why do we have organized religion? Why do we talk about it? Why do we write about it and want to spread it? Why do we build monuments and churches and temples and art and wage wars? It is only those that have done all of the above that has survived over the years.
Twenty years ago, I used to go about saying that with AI, the world won’t need religion anymore. Well...now the Pope is talking about Robots and AI from the Vatican. 300 years from now, how will we reconcile an afterlife or day of judgement or karma when life extension could practically make us immortal. I suspect religious faith will still be around but in what form?
I don’t say this lightly as I realize it sounds like a very superficial excuse. But it’s not. There is a constant parallel process of mirroring when we subscribe to any group philosophy.
If faith is a powerful shaper of the spirit /personality/values, every member is a review. Almost all religions get a mean 2.5 stars out of 5.
So every time faith has to be internal and personal to be effective. If faith is internal and personal, then why do we have organized religion? Why do we talk about it? Why do we write about it and want to spread it? Why do we build monuments and churches and temples and art and wage wars? It is only those that have done all of the above that has survived over the years.
Twenty years ago, I used to go about saying that with AI, the world won’t need religion anymore. Well...now the Pope is talking about Robots and AI from the Vatican. 300 years from now, how will we reconcile an afterlife or day of judgement or karma when life extension could practically make us immortal. I suspect religious faith will still be around but in what form?
I'm not sure what you are searching for?
While it is still hard sometimes to just accept that we are here and we will die and thats it, religion has surprisingly nothing to say in this regard which would help me.
From a pure study perspective, cultural enlightnment or whatever you wanna call it, of course. When i went on holiday before covid struc, i did read up on local culture and their believes.
There are believes i personally like as they sound funny/nice while i still will not do them. Like believing in a toilet god :)
I personally think it will make dying easier with my current nihlist mindset than a religious one.
While it is still hard sometimes to just accept that we are here and we will die and thats it, religion has surprisingly nothing to say in this regard which would help me.
From a pure study perspective, cultural enlightnment or whatever you wanna call it, of course. When i went on holiday before covid struc, i did read up on local culture and their believes.
There are believes i personally like as they sound funny/nice while i still will not do them. Like believing in a toilet god :)
I personally think it will make dying easier with my current nihlist mindset than a religious one.
yes, its our mortality that is increasingly becoming a bitter pill to swallow. i was born in a hindu faith that subscribes to the notion of reincarnation of the immortal soul. i find it very comforting.
i havent done much in this lifetime. the idea that i can carry over this life experience to another meaningful lifetime..like a bank balance..is very alluring. i want very much for it to be true.
if a 'soul' is 'immortal', why do physical bodies..and by extension, memories have an expiration date. why doesn't my life experiences have any lofty meaning?
what is the value of rationalism if it doesnt offer me peace?
i havent done much in this lifetime. the idea that i can carry over this life experience to another meaningful lifetime..like a bank balance..is very alluring. i want very much for it to be true.
if a 'soul' is 'immortal', why do physical bodies..and by extension, memories have an expiration date. why doesn't my life experiences have any lofty meaning?
what is the value of rationalism if it doesnt offer me peace?
Not for me.
eternity frightned me and it gives me a good feeling to know, that my life will end and i'm not forced to life forever.
Living forever becomes a prison in my opinion if you can't stop living.
I have one life, i will live it, thats it.
eternity frightned me and it gives me a good feeling to know, that my life will end and i'm not forced to life forever.
Living forever becomes a prison in my opinion if you can't stop living.
I have one life, i will live it, thats it.
I guess what I have now is a kind of HUNGER that I can’t quite describe.
of all "spiritual" beliefs, eternal recurrence seems to make the most sense to me. not in the hindu sense, but the idea that that an infinite number of universes could occur and that the matter that makes up your consciousness could configure itself again to give you the experience of living and sense of self that you have now doesn't seem that far fetched.
My answer to your question is yes. The reasoning is a little longer.
The main problem with this question is its representation of faith as a binary system: either an atheist or an agnostic or a christian or a muslim or a... The truth is religion has been (and will be for years to come) a massive part of the story of mankind. There is no penalty to exploring faith and a lot to gain from it: you'll either find yourself on a spiritual journey that will take you somewhere and influence you deeply (the religious, believing way of seeing this) or you will have learnt about how humans have interpreted the world around them and told each other stories about it in the form of scripture and from there religion (the sceptical way of seeing this). You'll either find the Truth or you'll realise you don't believe its there - but you'll have learnt a lot about other people's exploration of what the Truth is and what it means for them.
Should you explore Faith? Definitely. Should that mean you'll be on an unstoppable course towards becoming a devout Christian/Muslim/Insert your faith here? No. It means you're learning about human experience and listening to other's beliefs. Take it from there and decide what that means to you.
The main problem with this question is its representation of faith as a binary system: either an atheist or an agnostic or a christian or a muslim or a... The truth is religion has been (and will be for years to come) a massive part of the story of mankind. There is no penalty to exploring faith and a lot to gain from it: you'll either find yourself on a spiritual journey that will take you somewhere and influence you deeply (the religious, believing way of seeing this) or you will have learnt about how humans have interpreted the world around them and told each other stories about it in the form of scripture and from there religion (the sceptical way of seeing this). You'll either find the Truth or you'll realise you don't believe its there - but you'll have learnt a lot about other people's exploration of what the Truth is and what it means for them.
Should you explore Faith? Definitely. Should that mean you'll be on an unstoppable course towards becoming a devout Christian/Muslim/Insert your faith here? No. It means you're learning about human experience and listening to other's beliefs. Take it from there and decide what that means to you.
Religion and the notion of God is certainly a man made institution. And yet...within a span of just one year we have seen institutions crumble or at least weaken.. industry, financial institutions, news and media, education and dare I say, democracy. All man made institutions. Let’s include armies, marriage institution, family units, country borders, political parties/philosophies etc.
From a broader perspective, what are all the man made institutions we have relied on to be pillars of civilization? Let’s make a list. I am not talking about natural institutions...and by which, I mean those that follow the second law of thermodynamics and entropy before it perishes. Like the aging human body or a tree of forests etc.
Only religion has survived. Abrahamic monotheistic faiths for 2000 and Hinduism for 5000 and offshoots of Hinduism like Buddhism etc for slightly lesser periods. All man made. They have not only thrived but also as a viral meme spread fast. And haven’t evolved much(little changes in ritual or practices doesn’t count as evolution)
And many other man made religious institutions have come and gone. So many cults exists, but some have more staying power than others.
From a broader perspective, what are all the man made institutions we have relied on to be pillars of civilization? Let’s make a list. I am not talking about natural institutions...and by which, I mean those that follow the second law of thermodynamics and entropy before it perishes. Like the aging human body or a tree of forests etc.
Only religion has survived. Abrahamic monotheistic faiths for 2000 and Hinduism for 5000 and offshoots of Hinduism like Buddhism etc for slightly lesser periods. All man made. They have not only thrived but also as a viral meme spread fast. And haven’t evolved much(little changes in ritual or practices doesn’t count as evolution)
And many other man made religious institutions have come and gone. So many cults exists, but some have more staying power than others.
This seems akin to a red vs. blue pill thing for you.
I am the same age and I recommend that you come to your own conclusions, based off of falsifiable evidence and your own beliefs.
Perhaps instead of the blue pill, directly address your own fears. Everything dies, it is a natural process. None of us, nor will the Earth and Sun itself, escape fate. Learn to appreciate and maximize the time you have.
Or take the blue pill and die all the same, you won't exist consciously in any way, shape or form anyways, so no harm there. So perhaps its a useful, comforting delusion if you find that you can't accept the reality presented by the evidence.
I am the same age and I recommend that you come to your own conclusions, based off of falsifiable evidence and your own beliefs.
Perhaps instead of the blue pill, directly address your own fears. Everything dies, it is a natural process. None of us, nor will the Earth and Sun itself, escape fate. Learn to appreciate and maximize the time you have.
Or take the blue pill and die all the same, you won't exist consciously in any way, shape or form anyways, so no harm there. So perhaps its a useful, comforting delusion if you find that you can't accept the reality presented by the evidence.
I had an agnostic period as young adult. I was so disappointed on what protestant christianity had to offer and felt spiritually bankrupt. I tried zen buddhism and drugs but they couldn't fill the void. Eventually I found my way to Orthodox Church. The deepness and practicality of it's teachings has given me a purpose for my life and something to live (and die) for.
So if you ask me should you explore the Faith, I answer with a counter question: do you want to know what - or who - the Truth is before you die? In your dead bed you won't regret exploring it but you may regret not doing so.
Enjoy your search!
So if you ask me should you explore the Faith, I answer with a counter question: do you want to know what - or who - the Truth is before you die? In your dead bed you won't regret exploring it but you may regret not doing so.
Enjoy your search!
Do drugs open said ‘doors of perception’?
No. First it looks like it but in the end you realize it was only illusion and you're getting more and more lost and locked inside you.
Here's an debate between an orthodox scholar and an atheist you could find interesting. It's a long talk but full of good arguments from both sides: https://youtu.be/AajJBhdRpDA Hope it helps!
Here's an debate between an orthodox scholar and an atheist you could find interesting. It's a long talk but full of good arguments from both sides: https://youtu.be/AajJBhdRpDA Hope it helps!
Thank you for the YouTube link. I listened to parts of it. My dilemma is that my notion of divinity/god/theis’ has its beginnings in Hinduism, the religion of my ancestors.
I reject all monotheistic/Abrahamic faith based notions outright.
When I first came to the United States and became a card carrying member of American atheists, I was carried away. Rationalism was the name of my game. Except ...what if a religion can be religion? But soon I realized that my polytheistic faith of birth origin was a completely different animal. And I had to start from scratch again. I called myself agnostic and then ignostic rather than atheist.
I outright reject all monotheistic notions of God as in organized monotheist religion but I do recognize the common strain it shares with polytheistic faith that is Hinduism. So..what is THAT? It is just a deeper layer of religion that delves deep beyond superficial notions and motions of organized religion. That is just the packaging. What is The Gift? I want that. If it exists. A rational religion and a compatible God. How wonderful would that be!!
I reject all monotheistic/Abrahamic faith based notions outright.
When I first came to the United States and became a card carrying member of American atheists, I was carried away. Rationalism was the name of my game. Except ...what if a religion can be religion? But soon I realized that my polytheistic faith of birth origin was a completely different animal. And I had to start from scratch again. I called myself agnostic and then ignostic rather than atheist.
I outright reject all monotheistic notions of God as in organized monotheist religion but I do recognize the common strain it shares with polytheistic faith that is Hinduism. So..what is THAT? It is just a deeper layer of religion that delves deep beyond superficial notions and motions of organized religion. That is just the packaging. What is The Gift? I want that. If it exists. A rational religion and a compatible God. How wonderful would that be!!
It is true that our culture and the faith of our ancestors shapes how we perceive and think about the world around us.
If I recall right Krishna in Hinduism is the highest of all the other gods. That seems to have more in common with Abrahamic religions than from the first look of it. Like you we also believe there are other creatures that are immaterial: different ranks of angels and demons. What differs them from the God though is they were created by the Creator. We believe that this Creator is a person whom we can interact with, and that makes the search of divinity a fascinating journey, not just a mind game or scientific project. It's a relationship with two sides.
I don't know what you mean by rational religion or compatible God? Like someone said in this thread that even our rational thoughts have unrational presuppositions at their bottom. And trying to make God compatible with our thoughts means reducing God to fit into our minds. He is infinite and eternal being. In one sense we can't even say that God exists as our existence lies in Him.
I understand why people are sceptical to organised religion. But from my viewpoint and experience Orthodox Christianity offers a thousands of years of experience about who is the Truth and how I can participate about His life and become like Him.
If I recall right Krishna in Hinduism is the highest of all the other gods. That seems to have more in common with Abrahamic religions than from the first look of it. Like you we also believe there are other creatures that are immaterial: different ranks of angels and demons. What differs them from the God though is they were created by the Creator. We believe that this Creator is a person whom we can interact with, and that makes the search of divinity a fascinating journey, not just a mind game or scientific project. It's a relationship with two sides.
I don't know what you mean by rational religion or compatible God? Like someone said in this thread that even our rational thoughts have unrational presuppositions at their bottom. And trying to make God compatible with our thoughts means reducing God to fit into our minds. He is infinite and eternal being. In one sense we can't even say that God exists as our existence lies in Him.
I understand why people are sceptical to organised religion. But from my viewpoint and experience Orthodox Christianity offers a thousands of years of experience about who is the Truth and how I can participate about His life and become like Him.
There's truth, and there's emotionally comforting. Which do you want? I agree with raptoraver, that truth is what you should seek.
I suggest reading "He Is There And He Is Not Silent" by Francis Schaeffer. He argues that what is really there is also what we really need as humans - a God who actually exists, not just as an idea or a philosophical construct, but one who is really there. And this God is Someone, not just Something, so our human aspirations for being persons, not just machines, have a basis in what actually exists.
But don't stop there. Don't stop with knowing the truth as an intellectual construct. That's not what you really need. You need faith, not just knowledge. You need truth rather than lies or wishful thinking, but then you need faith in that truth.
("You" in this post is addressed to jelliclesfarm, even though I'm directly replying to raptoraver.)
I suggest reading "He Is There And He Is Not Silent" by Francis Schaeffer. He argues that what is really there is also what we really need as humans - a God who actually exists, not just as an idea or a philosophical construct, but one who is really there. And this God is Someone, not just Something, so our human aspirations for being persons, not just machines, have a basis in what actually exists.
But don't stop there. Don't stop with knowing the truth as an intellectual construct. That's not what you really need. You need faith, not just knowledge. You need truth rather than lies or wishful thinking, but then you need faith in that truth.
("You" in this post is addressed to jelliclesfarm, even though I'm directly replying to raptoraver.)
I hear you. That’s why I was hoping someone who had crossed over from atheism to theism would be able to provide insights.
Even dipping my toes slightly, I am finding that I need to have a strong faith in an omnipresent/omnipotent being. This is problematic.
I wanted to approach it as an intellectual/philosophical/man made construct, but the pieces are not fitting for a coherent narrative. I think I can even filter some religious dogma.
If I can find a rational reason for the possibility of an omnipresent/omnipotent/omniscient being(proof not required), then it would be easy to surrender. It is not an egoic thing. I don’t want to subscribe to imaginary constructs.
That’s where I am today. Or at least, this afternoon.
Even dipping my toes slightly, I am finding that I need to have a strong faith in an omnipresent/omnipotent being. This is problematic.
I wanted to approach it as an intellectual/philosophical/man made construct, but the pieces are not fitting for a coherent narrative. I think I can even filter some religious dogma.
If I can find a rational reason for the possibility of an omnipresent/omnipotent/omniscient being(proof not required), then it would be easy to surrender. It is not an egoic thing. I don’t want to subscribe to imaginary constructs.
That’s where I am today. Or at least, this afternoon.
I was never an atheist, but one of my favorite writers was until his 30s: C. S. Lewis. You might try some of his slim books: The Problem of Pain or Mere Christianity.
That's exactly Schaeffer's strength, that he has a philosophical and intellectual approach, but he fits the pieces into a coherent narrative.
The question of human mortality is growing with years on me, though I am in the middle of 30s.
I am very fascinated with many aspects of religions: from the beauty of idea of devotion to a divine omnipresent entity, serving God as a meaning of life to the evolution of Christian doctrine, religious thoughts, and influence of religion on art and architecture.
But I do not believe in God. I cannot take the concept of afterlife, for example, in Christianity seriously: either praising the Lord for eternity on Heavens or suffer in searing flames in Hell. In addition, such important decision is made based on how dedicated you were in following one of the many ancient moral codes, that is far from being universal and timeless. And then the very grand and picturesque Judgement Day, that belongs more to the realm of fantasy literature... I may imaging myself ending up with a belief that my soul will be dissolved in or unite with the universe in some way - like people feel under psychodelics or in deep meditation.
If you cannot find answers and comfort on the topic of mortality in religion, I would suggest to check Stoicism, Hackagure the way of the Samurai, or even Objectivism. I want to explore the latter after listening to Lex Fridman's podcast: youtube.com/watch?v=SOr1YYRljV8
I am very fascinated with many aspects of religions: from the beauty of idea of devotion to a divine omnipresent entity, serving God as a meaning of life to the evolution of Christian doctrine, religious thoughts, and influence of religion on art and architecture.
But I do not believe in God. I cannot take the concept of afterlife, for example, in Christianity seriously: either praising the Lord for eternity on Heavens or suffer in searing flames in Hell. In addition, such important decision is made based on how dedicated you were in following one of the many ancient moral codes, that is far from being universal and timeless. And then the very grand and picturesque Judgement Day, that belongs more to the realm of fantasy literature... I may imaging myself ending up with a belief that my soul will be dissolved in or unite with the universe in some way - like people feel under psychodelics or in deep meditation.
If you cannot find answers and comfort on the topic of mortality in religion, I would suggest to check Stoicism, Hackagure the way of the Samurai, or even Objectivism. I want to explore the latter after listening to Lex Fridman's podcast: youtube.com/watch?v=SOr1YYRljV8
‘A God’ is certainly fiction. But I wonder if there is a hidden God behind Faith? There are so many religions. With many philosophies and gods and rules and prayers. What unites them all is faith in something invisible and obviously omnipotent.
Perhaps faith in ‘something greater than ourselves’ = surrender of the ego self?
It could be that simple if it can come down to just that.
Perhaps faith in ‘something greater than ourselves’ = surrender of the ego self?
It could be that simple if it can come down to just that.
Your comment here seems familiar to me. I was raised Catholic, turned atheist in my teens, and then slowly fell into agnosticism in young adulthood. Now I don't consider any of those labels accurate of my beliefs.
Have you considered "exploring faith" in a practical/historical/contextual sense? Such as: why did religion ever become a thing/how did it come about? What ever was its purpose? Why are there (and what are the) recurring themes amongst all religions? Where did the ideas behind Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc originate - what do they have to say about X? Are what various religions preach/practice today - what they preached/practiced thousands of years ago? What about ancient religious texts not mainstay of any particular modern religion? What about language, meaning, human nature, and time? What of these things change and what of these things don't change? Where do they fit together? What about historical non-religious philosophical secular ideas? And on, and on...
I’ve done this for myself and found some satisfaction in it, and would think most anyone would too. That said, do I no longer have any qualms? No. Do I now believe in God(s)? That would all depend on what concept you behold to "God(s)". But mortality seems less bothersome now...
Have you considered "exploring faith" in a practical/historical/contextual sense? Such as: why did religion ever become a thing/how did it come about? What ever was its purpose? Why are there (and what are the) recurring themes amongst all religions? Where did the ideas behind Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc originate - what do they have to say about X? Are what various religions preach/practice today - what they preached/practiced thousands of years ago? What about ancient religious texts not mainstay of any particular modern religion? What about language, meaning, human nature, and time? What of these things change and what of these things don't change? Where do they fit together? What about historical non-religious philosophical secular ideas? And on, and on...
I’ve done this for myself and found some satisfaction in it, and would think most anyone would too. That said, do I no longer have any qualms? No. Do I now believe in God(s)? That would all depend on what concept you behold to "God(s)". But mortality seems less bothersome now...
I find that I have a longing for what we know as ‘devotion’. I guess it’s much like ‘being in love’.
It is a place of trust. Where the moral trusts the invisible unreachable and more powerful immortal. It’s almost like a submissive dynamics wherein our ego..the core of us beneath all the layers..gives up. It’s like sweet relief.
Does that make sense? To be a rationalist was the most desirable, easy and obvious position for me. Or so I thought. But what is the value of rationalism? Why should we value it over all else?
It is a place of trust. Where the moral trusts the invisible unreachable and more powerful immortal. It’s almost like a submissive dynamics wherein our ego..the core of us beneath all the layers..gives up. It’s like sweet relief.
Does that make sense? To be a rationalist was the most desirable, easy and obvious position for me. Or so I thought. But what is the value of rationalism? Why should we value it over all else?
I understand you on the longing for devotion, and introspected on it and the need in God. I believe they are continuations of our deeply ingrained feelings from early childhood towards our parents as omnipresent, powerful, right, protective, and loving figures. The child grows, and God replaces the parents as an entity emanating those characteristics.
I think we can accept and embrace our complex nature of rationality, emotions, deep subconscious spaces, and find the ways to experience them and find peace: meditation, Voice Dialogue therapy, psychodelics, etc.
Once I found the levels of Ego Development by Susanne Cook-Greuter as a useful perspective, a path to push towards. Questioning rationality is, I guess, maps to level 5 there.
I think we can accept and embrace our complex nature of rationality, emotions, deep subconscious spaces, and find the ways to experience them and find peace: meditation, Voice Dialogue therapy, psychodelics, etc.
Once I found the levels of Ego Development by Susanne Cook-Greuter as a useful perspective, a path to push towards. Questioning rationality is, I guess, maps to level 5 there.
The omnipotence of God is true in Abrahamic religions, but it's not the case in many other religions, for example, Olympic Gods in Ancient Greece.
You are not alone in wondering about a hidden God! Check Gnosticism. There is a great book (3 volumes in fact) to learn about religions of past and present: https://www.amazon.com/History-Religious-Ideas-Eleusinian-My...
You are not alone in wondering about a hidden God! Check Gnosticism. There is a great book (3 volumes in fact) to learn about religions of past and present: https://www.amazon.com/History-Religious-Ideas-Eleusinian-My...
> ‘A God’ is certainly fiction.
Maybe. I struggle with this myself, after having been somewhat convinced by the Simulationist arguments, specifically, those around quantized reality.
If our universe is a simulation, that implies the existence of a simulator. Certainly not a bearded guy in the heavens, but a simulator nonetheless.
Maybe. I struggle with this myself, after having been somewhat convinced by the Simulationist arguments, specifically, those around quantized reality.
If our universe is a simulation, that implies the existence of a simulator. Certainly not a bearded guy in the heavens, but a simulator nonetheless.
If you're worried about old age, consider investigating the efforts of SENS Foundation[0] instead.
As an atheist, I can tell you that donating to SENS will be much more productive than any time or money invested in honoring false gods or other irrational beliefs.
[0]: https://www.sens.org/our-research/intro-to-sens-research/
As an atheist, I can tell you that donating to SENS will be much more productive than any time or money invested in honoring false gods or other irrational beliefs.
[0]: https://www.sens.org/our-research/intro-to-sens-research/
Thanks. I have been following SENS and Aubrey De Grey since the Methuselah Mouse days. Very commendable and I am looking forward to my years ahead.
When I mentioned my age, the weight of the past as I have witnessed over the years also bears down on my worldview.
The arguments I rattled off as a young atheist in my 20s don’t hold water anymore..because I have more years of witnessing on my back now.
When I mentioned my age, the weight of the past as I have witnessed over the years also bears down on my worldview.
The arguments I rattled off as a young atheist in my 20s don’t hold water anymore..because I have more years of witnessing on my back now.
You have two choices:
* Explore faith under the guidance of an organized religion or movement or school of thought
* Explore faith all by yourself
There is the obvious third option of combining these two options, but you are going to do that anyway.
The first choice will right away give you an initial path for faith. You can create your own, once you have mastered theirs.
The second option involves creating a path all by yourself. When you do this, look at existing schools of thought, and use them as a foundation to create your own path.
Regarding rationality:
Faith, by its very nature, is relative. What is rational to one person is irrational to another. That is why we have well-intentioned and highly intelligent atheists, agnosts, and religious followers arguing (let us consider only the mutually respectful arguments and discussions of the past, because the rest require their own topic) for eons, without reaching a common consensus.
Your rationality can also change with time. What is rational to you today may not be rational to you tomorrow.
So what should you do?
You need rationalism NOW. So, follow the rational path, based on how rationalism appears to you TODAY. Just accept that it will change, as time goes on and the neurons in your brain change/evolve. Do not be afraid of change.
* Explore faith under the guidance of an organized religion or movement or school of thought
* Explore faith all by yourself
There is the obvious third option of combining these two options, but you are going to do that anyway.
The first choice will right away give you an initial path for faith. You can create your own, once you have mastered theirs.
The second option involves creating a path all by yourself. When you do this, look at existing schools of thought, and use them as a foundation to create your own path.
Regarding rationality:
Faith, by its very nature, is relative. What is rational to one person is irrational to another. That is why we have well-intentioned and highly intelligent atheists, agnosts, and religious followers arguing (let us consider only the mutually respectful arguments and discussions of the past, because the rest require their own topic) for eons, without reaching a common consensus.
Your rationality can also change with time. What is rational to you today may not be rational to you tomorrow.
So what should you do?
You need rationalism NOW. So, follow the rational path, based on how rationalism appears to you TODAY. Just accept that it will change, as time goes on and the neurons in your brain change/evolve. Do not be afraid of change.
This is helpful. I was a pretty rabid atheist in my 20s(not proud) and over the years, I have constantly recalibrated my atheism and have swung between ignosticism and agnosticism to exploring faith.
there was no rational basis for atheism either. agnosticism seemed to be a comfortable nook to hide under but as one gets older, one starts questioning that too.
i have considered cults. holding a human guru to a higher esteem seemed an easier pill to swallow than an invisible omniscient/omnipotent being. but that duck didnt even waddle, never mind fly.
i went back to my own faith of origin which was easier to navigate. perhaps it was easier for me as it wasnt an monotheistic faith, but it still required 'faith'. i have since started studying astrology because it had a deistic component alongside solid mathematics/astronomy concepts. it's still muddled, but it a 'language' i can understand without too much baggage.
i do want to 'believe' in something ultimately. i feel lucky enough to be in a place/time where i can define it on my terms. the question tho' is:
1. why does the populace have Faith? 2, what are it's benefits? vs downsides? 3. why did it evolve and thrive? religion and the notion of a God has staying power. this shouldnt be dismissed. 4.i am not dismissive of Faith as I was when I was younger.(how we change!!) clearly it has its upside. or it wouldnt have survived over the centuries. 5. what is that comfortable 'sweet spot' where i can have a intersection of the benefits of Faith and Rationalism? I do feel like I want to subscribe to a "supernatural" Faith rather than A God. 6. My escape is Sci-Fi. Will AI play a role in shaping future Faith?
I envy those who have Faith. I really do. A decade ago, I might have been facetious, but no longer. I am weathered and mellow. I dont want to fight anymore. I want to understand but also want the freedom to observe it as an outsider to most organised religion.
there was no rational basis for atheism either. agnosticism seemed to be a comfortable nook to hide under but as one gets older, one starts questioning that too.
i have considered cults. holding a human guru to a higher esteem seemed an easier pill to swallow than an invisible omniscient/omnipotent being. but that duck didnt even waddle, never mind fly.
i went back to my own faith of origin which was easier to navigate. perhaps it was easier for me as it wasnt an monotheistic faith, but it still required 'faith'. i have since started studying astrology because it had a deistic component alongside solid mathematics/astronomy concepts. it's still muddled, but it a 'language' i can understand without too much baggage.
i do want to 'believe' in something ultimately. i feel lucky enough to be in a place/time where i can define it on my terms. the question tho' is:
1. why does the populace have Faith? 2, what are it's benefits? vs downsides? 3. why did it evolve and thrive? religion and the notion of a God has staying power. this shouldnt be dismissed. 4.i am not dismissive of Faith as I was when I was younger.(how we change!!) clearly it has its upside. or it wouldnt have survived over the centuries. 5. what is that comfortable 'sweet spot' where i can have a intersection of the benefits of Faith and Rationalism? I do feel like I want to subscribe to a "supernatural" Faith rather than A God. 6. My escape is Sci-Fi. Will AI play a role in shaping future Faith?
I envy those who have Faith. I really do. A decade ago, I might have been facetious, but no longer. I am weathered and mellow. I dont want to fight anymore. I want to understand but also want the freedom to observe it as an outsider to most organised religion.
>1. why does the populace have Faith?
Human psychology. We find it inherently very hard to live in a world ruled by Randomness/Chance, Factors outside of our control and a sense of our own mortality as a consequence of natural ageing (eg. your current crisis :-) Think of it like this; a Child is born into a world populated by "Gods" i.e. its Parents/Society who solve all its problems deterministically. As the Child grows up, the gods turn out to be "False"(i.e. there are problems they cannot solve) which is a huge shock to its worldview and therefore it invents new gods (i.e. Religion) to cope with Reality.
>2, what are it's benefits? vs downsides?
A coping mechanism to live in World ruled by Randomness/Chance and Indifference. The downside is that, taken to extremes one loses touch with Reality and lives in a fantasy world.
>3. why did it evolve and thrive? religion and the notion of a God has staying power. this shouldnt be dismissed.
No reason. It is a consequence of Evolution following a meandering path to give us "Big Brains" one of whose emergent properties is a need to invent God/Religion (see also the book The Runaway Brain: The Evolution of Human uniqueness)
>4.i am not dismissive of Faith as I was when I was younger.(how we change!!) clearly it has its upside. or it wouldnt have survived over the centuries.
No, the above statement is itself an act of Faith :-) Ever since the advent of "Modern Science" starting in the 17th/18th century Faith/Religion/God have lost their Cachet.
>5. what is that comfortable 'sweet spot' where i can have a intersection of the benefits of Faith and Rationalism?
A marriage of Philosophy and Science. For example, i like Samkhya for its model of the World and our Position in it, Yoga for its everyday discipline for keeping Mind and Body in harmony and Scientific Materialism to enjoy the World.
PS: You might also be interested in life arguments put forth by Jack London via his hero Wolf Larsen in the novel The Sea Wolf - https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1jqpar/what_book_sin...
Human psychology. We find it inherently very hard to live in a world ruled by Randomness/Chance, Factors outside of our control and a sense of our own mortality as a consequence of natural ageing (eg. your current crisis :-) Think of it like this; a Child is born into a world populated by "Gods" i.e. its Parents/Society who solve all its problems deterministically. As the Child grows up, the gods turn out to be "False"(i.e. there are problems they cannot solve) which is a huge shock to its worldview and therefore it invents new gods (i.e. Religion) to cope with Reality.
>2, what are it's benefits? vs downsides?
A coping mechanism to live in World ruled by Randomness/Chance and Indifference. The downside is that, taken to extremes one loses touch with Reality and lives in a fantasy world.
>3. why did it evolve and thrive? religion and the notion of a God has staying power. this shouldnt be dismissed.
No reason. It is a consequence of Evolution following a meandering path to give us "Big Brains" one of whose emergent properties is a need to invent God/Religion (see also the book The Runaway Brain: The Evolution of Human uniqueness)
>4.i am not dismissive of Faith as I was when I was younger.(how we change!!) clearly it has its upside. or it wouldnt have survived over the centuries.
No, the above statement is itself an act of Faith :-) Ever since the advent of "Modern Science" starting in the 17th/18th century Faith/Religion/God have lost their Cachet.
>5. what is that comfortable 'sweet spot' where i can have a intersection of the benefits of Faith and Rationalism?
A marriage of Philosophy and Science. For example, i like Samkhya for its model of the World and our Position in it, Yoga for its everyday discipline for keeping Mind and Body in harmony and Scientific Materialism to enjoy the World.
PS: You might also be interested in life arguments put forth by Jack London via his hero Wolf Larsen in the novel The Sea Wolf - https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1jqpar/what_book_sin...
I have been reading Hindu texts and vedas/upanishads/puranas(it’s wild! There is hard core philosophy and then suddenly it veers into weapon art and tax codes).
I started with Dr.Radhakrishnan’s books but find the language weird and stilted for quick reading. I might get back to it at some point, but I am currently reading Upanishads by Eknath Easwaran.
I started with Dr.Radhakrishnan’s books but find the language weird and stilted for quick reading. I might get back to it at some point, but I am currently reading Upanishads by Eknath Easwaran.
It doesn't hurt to explore different ideas. Who knows what you may find.
One thing I might try is looking at different religions and seeing what they have in common and what's different, what you like and don't like. You can select one of them, or none of them. You could also mix and match aspects from these religions for your own faith/moral outlook. For example, many faiths share some common principles that manifest in reality such as charity, treating others with kindness, supporting one another in a community, etc. So you could find actions/attributes of a religion to be helpful, or the community aspect of a faith-based congregation. You may not need to fervently believe in a higher power/being to benefit from these. Many faiths welcome skeptics and encourage questions and discussions for learning. Of course you may encounter pushy or dismissive zealots in any of them.
One thing I might try is looking at different religions and seeing what they have in common and what's different, what you like and don't like. You can select one of them, or none of them. You could also mix and match aspects from these religions for your own faith/moral outlook. For example, many faiths share some common principles that manifest in reality such as charity, treating others with kindness, supporting one another in a community, etc. So you could find actions/attributes of a religion to be helpful, or the community aspect of a faith-based congregation. You may not need to fervently believe in a higher power/being to benefit from these. Many faiths welcome skeptics and encourage questions and discussions for learning. Of course you may encounter pushy or dismissive zealots in any of them.
You tie your question to age, connecting your exploration of faith to death. Start by exploring your own inevitable demise.
yes. the age factor is highly weighted. i have no issue with faith, but i want to it to jive with rationalism that i value highly. i have mellowed much over the years.
Not ex but, well, of course you can. You can be curious and learn without committing to it. You can also explore alternative philosophies, like nihilism.
One thing that I find really fulfilling to my existential needs is learning about the universe. In the past few years I learned about relativity, quantum mechanics, astrophysics and it was all without having to do complicated math or read books: I did it while watching youtube. I highly recommend it. There are a ton of really good channels, but my favorite by far is PBS Space Time. Also Startalk. And sometimes Kurzgesagt presents some nice views on exsitential topics, like nihilism.
One thing that I find really fulfilling to my existential needs is learning about the universe. In the past few years I learned about relativity, quantum mechanics, astrophysics and it was all without having to do complicated math or read books: I did it while watching youtube. I highly recommend it. There are a ton of really good channels, but my favorite by far is PBS Space Time. Also Startalk. And sometimes Kurzgesagt presents some nice views on exsitential topics, like nihilism.
Thank you. I agree. Perhaps knowledge is what’s Omnipotent and omniscient. I particularly enjoy astronomy and physics. They seem to hold the secrets of the universe and narrated in the language of mathematics.
I also want to add that I am grateful for covid 19. (Even though it sounds perverse at first glance) Silver lining and all that. I didnt have the time for this kind of woolgathering before. Human interaction is very costly..time wise and mental energy wise. It’s sucks a lot of bandwidth. 2020 has been the most productive year for me in a different sort of way than I would normally consider ‘productive’. And now is the time for exploring religion and start a search for God. What an intriguing and alluring and increasingly urgent(to me) notion.
I also want to add that I am grateful for covid 19. (Even though it sounds perverse at first glance) Silver lining and all that. I didnt have the time for this kind of woolgathering before. Human interaction is very costly..time wise and mental energy wise. It’s sucks a lot of bandwidth. 2020 has been the most productive year for me in a different sort of way than I would normally consider ‘productive’. And now is the time for exploring religion and start a search for God. What an intriguing and alluring and increasingly urgent(to me) notion.
There are 4300 religions in the world. All were invented long time ago for expaining what the brain could not understand.
The truth is that the religion we should all believe into was not yet invented.
Why aren’t there more new religions?
I’m not an ex-atheist, so I can’t speak from that perspective, but my faith has been the foundation I’ve built my life on and the lens through which I see and interpret the world. So you won’t be surprised that my suggestion is: yes, you should explore faith :)
If you are ever curious, this is my church: https://www.comeuntochrist.org
Good luck to you on your journey!
If you are ever curious, this is my church: https://www.comeuntochrist.org
Good luck to you on your journey!
I was born in a Hindu Brahmin family. The answers to my questions have become more urgent as I grow older. Is faith different from organised religion? Regards and Thanks!
>Is faith different from organised religion?
Yes and No.
Faith in Philosophies to study and model one's life after in the context of a Society/Environment is very welcome. All Science started this way i.e. an attempt to model/understand the World and one's place in it.
Faith in the context of Organized Religion/Rituals without understanding the Philosophy behind it should be rejected. Doesn't matter who is pushing it.
There are Six major accepted schools of "Orthodox" philosophies under the umbrella term "Hinduism". But due to historical reasons, at current time the Vedanta/Upanishadic school is dominant and is conflated with the whole of "Hinduism" which is obviously not true. You might want to look into the different schools of Hindu Philosophy and see what appeals to you and model your life after it. Note that the Hindu philosophies span the entire spectrum from Vedas/Mimamsa Rituals/Sannyasa Upanishadic Renunciation to totally materialistic Charvaka/Lokayata belief systems. Whatever you choose should be in accordance (to a certain extent) with "Modern Science" to avoid/control cognitive dissonance.
PS: You might want to look into the set of volumes by S.N.Dasgupta named A History of Indian Philosophy. Vol-I gives an overview of all systems.
Yes and No.
Faith in Philosophies to study and model one's life after in the context of a Society/Environment is very welcome. All Science started this way i.e. an attempt to model/understand the World and one's place in it.
Faith in the context of Organized Religion/Rituals without understanding the Philosophy behind it should be rejected. Doesn't matter who is pushing it.
There are Six major accepted schools of "Orthodox" philosophies under the umbrella term "Hinduism". But due to historical reasons, at current time the Vedanta/Upanishadic school is dominant and is conflated with the whole of "Hinduism" which is obviously not true. You might want to look into the different schools of Hindu Philosophy and see what appeals to you and model your life after it. Note that the Hindu philosophies span the entire spectrum from Vedas/Mimamsa Rituals/Sannyasa Upanishadic Renunciation to totally materialistic Charvaka/Lokayata belief systems. Whatever you choose should be in accordance (to a certain extent) with "Modern Science" to avoid/control cognitive dissonance.
PS: You might want to look into the set of volumes by S.N.Dasgupta named A History of Indian Philosophy. Vol-I gives an overview of all systems.
Thank you, I will look it up. I have a reading list and have read many from a theory perspective. I am re reading them but this time with a different perspective/goal.
I am not sure if it is a good idea to ask here, but I am going to anyways(thank you, throwaways!): What about psychedelics and spirituality? I have read about it but no first hand experience. Any insights to share...it would be interesting and enjoyable to read.
I am the same age as you. I believe faith is the most central question of life. My best friend who is a scientist is uncomfortable using the word faith to describe his worldview. That is, he will believe the scientific evidence until new evidence comes to light. Whichever word you want to use I believe everyone makes a choice on why we are here and has to live with the not yet known. Will there be life after death? We can't all be correct. I hope you make progress on your journey as I find it bizarre that anyone would not care deeply about this matter.
discover yourself first, who are you? what is that in you that is not changing or is everything changing in your experience? only trust your experience and if there is anything left after discovering yourself :) choose whatever faith that "you" like.
I think I have always had faith in other institutions. But they have all changed. They come and go over the years. I want a constant.
Organized religion helps strengthen faith and create a sense of belonging, but I think faith should first stem from a personal experince. For me, the religious belief shapes my worldview and is about two things: 1. A feeling of complete reliance on God, as my creator, to help and guide me throughout life, which feels.. liberating. 2. It gives a purpose to life, so I believe in the after-life and that we were not created and do not die in vain.
I consider myself a rational person, and I do not think that faith is irrational. Besides historical and natural evidence, If you dig into the notion of rationality itself, you'll find that our actions and beliefs are based on a set of axioms/assumptions anyway, and that those assumptions themselves are not subject to rationality. As Ludwig Wittgenstein said: "At the foundation of well-founded belief lies a belief that is not founded".
Good luck on your journey!