Pakistan’s new regulations aim to ‘silence the internet’(aljazeera.com)
aljazeera.com
Pakistan’s new regulations aim to ‘silence the internet’
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/12/2/pakistans-new-regulations-aim-to-silence-the
47 comments
That's pretty progressive of them, to put hate speech first and front of their priorities. Many of us in the West would love if we did the same. Go Pakistan!
Of course, who defines hate speech? Even here in the US we're already starting to see attempts by local government to define anti-cop sentiment as "hate speech"; an obvious perversion of the original intent, but a sadly predictable result of leaving such a wide ranging power within easy reach of partisans politics.
Hardly progressive - Everything progressive is simply deemed to be vulgar hate speech and then blocked. Don't forget that it's a very conservative country that, in my opinion, would be a Republican utopia if the official religion was christianity instead of Islam.
> That is so amazingly blatant, they are not even trying to spin this.
Their honesty is like a breath of fresh fair. If it was germany/europe or silicon valley, they would have rephrased "anti-state content" as "anti-democracy content". And a bunch of people here would be celebrating and praising it.
#1 and #3 is pretty much a copy of HN guidelines or the censorship rules on most social media.
Also you got to hand it to aljazeera. They support "silencing the internet" like most news organizations but of course wouldn't accuse themselves or their fellow propaganda organizations of doing so. Their "silencing" is more benign. It's for the good of the people...
Their honesty is like a breath of fresh fair. If it was germany/europe or silicon valley, they would have rephrased "anti-state content" as "anti-democracy content". And a bunch of people here would be celebrating and praising it.
#1 and #3 is pretty much a copy of HN guidelines or the censorship rules on most social media.
Also you got to hand it to aljazeera. They support "silencing the internet" like most news organizations but of course wouldn't accuse themselves or their fellow propaganda organizations of doing so. Their "silencing" is more benign. It's for the good of the people...
Government censorship is significantly more impactful than what companies can do. One makes the rules. The others operate within. It’s best not to equate the two.
And yes, HN has a diverse audience and you’ll always find someone celebrating a story.
Regardless, as a westerner, I feel sorry for the people of Pakistan.
And yes, HN has a diverse audience and you’ll always find someone celebrating a story.
Regardless, as a westerner, I feel sorry for the people of Pakistan.
> Government censorship is significantly more impactful than what companies can do.
Maybe in the past. But not today. Pakistan is what 200 million people? FB has 2.2 billion people using its services. By any stretch of the imagination, I'd say the largest companies in the world are geopolitically stronger than the government of pakistan regardless of their nuclear weapons.
> One makes the rules. The others operate within
Except who buys the rules? The people with the money.
> It’s best not to equate the two.
Actually it is. Especially when large corporations can "buy" laws.
> Regardless, as a westerner, I feel sorry for the people of Pakistan.
That's rather patronizing. And as an american, I feel sorry for you and whereever you are too ashamed to say you are from. I love people that hide behind "westerner".
Maybe in the past. But not today. Pakistan is what 200 million people? FB has 2.2 billion people using its services. By any stretch of the imagination, I'd say the largest companies in the world are geopolitically stronger than the government of pakistan regardless of their nuclear weapons.
> One makes the rules. The others operate within
Except who buys the rules? The people with the money.
> It’s best not to equate the two.
Actually it is. Especially when large corporations can "buy" laws.
> Regardless, as a westerner, I feel sorry for the people of Pakistan.
That's rather patronizing. And as an american, I feel sorry for you and whereever you are too ashamed to say you are from. I love people that hide behind "westerner".
Will Facebook send armed men to your house to take you prison for posting some vulgarity or politically sensitive topic? When they can I'll consider them equal.
"The common good" is an entirely red flag these days.
yeah. they are all the same. you know india banned PUBG mobile game on account for being a "chinese" game, being a bad influence on the health of kids and blah blah blah. a few days later some indian announced a game "FAU-G" which probably is a pubg clone and everyone is going gaga over it, equating playing the game as being a sign of a nationalist. no concern for the health of kids because this game is india made. smh.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/02/tech/india-bans-pubg-alip...
https://www.gizbot.com/gaming/news/fau-g-game-is-indias-answ...
https://www.bollywoodlife.com/news-gossip/bollywood-news-aks...
>He had written, “Supporting PM @narendramodi’s AtmaNirbhar movement, proud to present an action game,Fearless And United-Guards FAU-G. Besides entertainment, players will also learn about the sacrifices of our soldiers. 20% of the net revenue generated will be donated to @BharatKeVeer Trust #FAUG.”
https://www.news18.com/news/tech/pubg-mobile-india-ban-is-pe...
>game that is "too violent" in nature. s a result, it may never be allowed back in the Indian cyber space again, in light of the violence as well as the tendency of addiction that the game brings
so the TLDR; chinese app is too violent and has a tendency of addiction but a homegrown app that competes with this app is fine because it is make in india and we need to support locals. yeah right
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/02/tech/india-bans-pubg-alip...
https://www.gizbot.com/gaming/news/fau-g-game-is-indias-answ...
https://www.bollywoodlife.com/news-gossip/bollywood-news-aks...
>He had written, “Supporting PM @narendramodi’s AtmaNirbhar movement, proud to present an action game,Fearless And United-Guards FAU-G. Besides entertainment, players will also learn about the sacrifices of our soldiers. 20% of the net revenue generated will be donated to @BharatKeVeer Trust #FAUG.”
https://www.news18.com/news/tech/pubg-mobile-india-ban-is-pe...
>game that is "too violent" in nature. s a result, it may never be allowed back in the Indian cyber space again, in light of the violence as well as the tendency of addiction that the game brings
so the TLDR; chinese app is too violent and has a tendency of addiction but a homegrown app that competes with this app is fine because it is make in india and we need to support locals. yeah right
As usual, Pakistan makes another stupid attempt to reel in US technology companies under their control. These attempts aren't coming out of left field, rather are inspired by China, India, Austria, and a few other European powers.
As I've told my Pakistani counterparts, this attempt is amusing at the least and ignorable at the worst. They have no merit to make these demands. Of course, technology companies do not want to lose the 85 million customer base, but they realize Pakistan has more to loose than gain by putting a blanket ban on these platforms. They realize any ban would be reversed under public pressure.
I'll share what I told Amin-ul-Haque (who doesn't know the difference between right-click and left-click): Pakistan's play should be to determine impact to GDP associated with these platform companies (past, present, & future). It should use that to make a case for these companies to open product-development led offices in Pakistan, not just sales that we have today. Over a span of 10 years, Pakistan needs to gain this knowledge and begin innovating their own products and infrastructure. Eventually, when sufficient infrastructure has been built and cloned over to Pakistan, it should then ban these platform companies and drive traffic through their home-grown solutions.
Ultimately, this will allow: 1. Talent to develop and thrive in Pakistan. There's a lot of talent there already, but it's either leaving, working on small problems, or just part of the problem. There is a small pool of incredible research happening there, but unfortunately it is motivated by the need to get out. 2. Increase tax revenue and the technology sector's contribution margin to GDP 3. Output better products that solve Pakistani problems instead of band-aiding US technology to fit into their existing broken ecosystem.
I understand this is a controversial opinion. This is most likely not the right path, but the thinking is along the right direction.
A lot of people think that the primary motivation is to muzzle free speech. Yes, there are absolutely cases of investigative journalist who have been silenced. But for every 1 case of silencing free speech there are 100s of the fringe right spreading misinformation about religion, government, and foreign powers to the masses there.
This problem will not be solved by US technology companies. Solving these problems do not pay bills, they are just decent PR, which again, most of these companies are not interested in since it doesn't impact the bottom line.
As I've told my Pakistani counterparts, this attempt is amusing at the least and ignorable at the worst. They have no merit to make these demands. Of course, technology companies do not want to lose the 85 million customer base, but they realize Pakistan has more to loose than gain by putting a blanket ban on these platforms. They realize any ban would be reversed under public pressure.
I'll share what I told Amin-ul-Haque (who doesn't know the difference between right-click and left-click): Pakistan's play should be to determine impact to GDP associated with these platform companies (past, present, & future). It should use that to make a case for these companies to open product-development led offices in Pakistan, not just sales that we have today. Over a span of 10 years, Pakistan needs to gain this knowledge and begin innovating their own products and infrastructure. Eventually, when sufficient infrastructure has been built and cloned over to Pakistan, it should then ban these platform companies and drive traffic through their home-grown solutions.
Ultimately, this will allow: 1. Talent to develop and thrive in Pakistan. There's a lot of talent there already, but it's either leaving, working on small problems, or just part of the problem. There is a small pool of incredible research happening there, but unfortunately it is motivated by the need to get out. 2. Increase tax revenue and the technology sector's contribution margin to GDP 3. Output better products that solve Pakistani problems instead of band-aiding US technology to fit into their existing broken ecosystem.
I understand this is a controversial opinion. This is most likely not the right path, but the thinking is along the right direction.
A lot of people think that the primary motivation is to muzzle free speech. Yes, there are absolutely cases of investigative journalist who have been silenced. But for every 1 case of silencing free speech there are 100s of the fringe right spreading misinformation about religion, government, and foreign powers to the masses there.
This problem will not be solved by US technology companies. Solving these problems do not pay bills, they are just decent PR, which again, most of these companies are not interested in since it doesn't impact the bottom line.
I read your comment but it's not clear to me how what you are suggesting would work practically. My friend and I are bootstrapping a startup that would primarily cater to Pakistan audience. We are hosted on AWS and use Stripe for payment processing etc, like most startups. Even if we wanted to host something in Pakistan (which we don't), no such infrastructure exists and we are in place to hire any dev resources in Pakistan either.
Per the article, if you are not hosted in Pakistan, Govt will fine you 3.x, which will probably kill our project, but it's not clear how Pak Govt can find us if we have no presence there?
Per the article, if you are not hosted in Pakistan, Govt will fine you 3.x, which will probably kill our project, but it's not clear how Pak Govt can find us if we have no presence there?
This is, ultimately, the only way forward: Pick a legal jurisdiction, keep your employees within it, and let the internet bring worldwide customers to you. If other countries try block your packets, that's between them and their citizens.
The more jurisdictions you straddle (with servers, employees), the lower the lowest common denominator of "legal" behavior. At some point the lowest common denominator may be a nonintersecting set - "government must have access to the data" and "data may not leave the country" are incongruent. This will make life increasingly difficult for giant multinationals like FB and Google.
As long as your content is legal in the US, the US will not extradite you for violating Pakistan's (or Europe's) particular flavors of internet censorship. You may want to be careful about international travel, however.
The more jurisdictions you straddle (with servers, employees), the lower the lowest common denominator of "legal" behavior. At some point the lowest common denominator may be a nonintersecting set - "government must have access to the data" and "data may not leave the country" are incongruent. This will make life increasingly difficult for giant multinationals like FB and Google.
As long as your content is legal in the US, the US will not extradite you for violating Pakistan's (or Europe's) particular flavors of internet censorship. You may want to be careful about international travel, however.
>Govt will fine you 3.x
Pakistan's average salary [1] is about $15,000 usd annually. Three times that would be less what an software engineering intern makes in Boston [2]. Maybe just add the government to your payroll and call it a cost of doing business?
[1] https://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/pakistan
[2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boston-software-engineer-...
Pakistan's average salary [1] is about $15,000 usd annually. Three times that would be less what an software engineering intern makes in Boston [2]. Maybe just add the government to your payroll and call it a cost of doing business?
[1] https://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/pakistan
[2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boston-software-engineer-...
from the article they are thinking of fining up to 3.x million USD
Very simple. Pakistan acquires GFW technology from PRC. Your company gets GFW'ed like Facebook in China.
So, Pakistan's government appears to need an... adjustment. Preferably at the hands of Pakistan's citizens.
If your real leader is called "Inter-Services Intelligence" your chances are very small to do anything.
You think those guys use Internet/social media? My grandfather had to give a presentation to army brass (maybe it was FWO) once and they could barely handle PowerPoint.
The ISI is one of the most capable (HUMINT wise) and ruthless Secret Services worldwide.
I meant that they have same attitude like that governor of Kashmir right before 370 was revoked who said who needs Internet anyway and probably have strong opinions about misuse from not ever using it unless told to.
You are probably right, but using powerpoint correctly in pakistan or even the need for internet is really not relevant for the "ordinary" pakistani, food, medicine and a safe place is.
[deleted]
I'm trying to picture what will happen in the two scenarios:
1) Social Media/Messaging apps all give them the finger and stop operating in Pakistan entirely or dealing with them
2) ^^^ try to figure out a way to work with them and actually FOLLOW these completely insane demands, resulting in serious problems for everyone
I have to imagine that #1 will have MASSIVE social impacts on Pakistanis -- not having any access to any modern messaging or social media platform would be a huge impact these days, and I wonder whether they would even stand for that...
1) Social Media/Messaging apps all give them the finger and stop operating in Pakistan entirely or dealing with them
2) ^^^ try to figure out a way to work with them and actually FOLLOW these completely insane demands, resulting in serious problems for everyone
I have to imagine that #1 will have MASSIVE social impacts on Pakistanis -- not having any access to any modern messaging or social media platform would be a huge impact these days, and I wonder whether they would even stand for that...
#1 it already happened in China. What else do you think Alibaba, WeChat & Co are after all if not Chinese replacement for Western tech? My guess, since Pakistan is copying the control from China will also copy the replication.
Pakistan's adult literacy rate[1] is about 60%. China's[2] is about 95%. Pakistan is in trouble if it needs to replace American tech entirely.
[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/572781/literacy-rate-in-...
[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/278568/illiteracy-rate-i...
[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/572781/literacy-rate-in-...
[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/278568/illiteracy-rate-i...
I played around with Pakistani WhatsApp groups for a while. RE: vulgarity, that's already kinda banned (along with most pornography in Asia). I bet you could get banned if you are reported for hate speech, but I'm not sure what they will/can do about anti-state talk.
Is it possible that they want the social media companies gone? Make completely unreasonable demands based upon your actual importance, and the other side shrugs and walks away.
A few days ago the state government extended the blanket ban on "high speed mobile internet" which has been banned since 5 August 2019 in India administered Kashmir on account of " misuse" all the while acknowledging that this denial on high speed internet" is not having any significant impact on education" among other things.
Pakistan is doing the exact same thing. There is no "Pakistan = bad". The reality is more like "India = bad, Pakistan = bad, China = bad, USA = bad ". Everyone is bad.
As someone who has suffered financially, emotionally, socially because of this "ban", I can confirm things will not be forgotten and I suppose people affected by these "laws" wont either.
Pakistan is doing the exact same thing. There is no "Pakistan = bad". The reality is more like "India = bad, Pakistan = bad, China = bad, USA = bad ". Everyone is bad.
As someone who has suffered financially, emotionally, socially because of this "ban", I can confirm things will not be forgotten and I suppose people affected by these "laws" wont either.
> India = bad, Pakistan = bad, China = bad, USA = bad
One of these things is not like the others (at least in degree).
One of these things is not like the others (at least in degree).
assange would disagree but still
If anybody wants more in detail knowledge about the region, especially what is happening in the Banana Republic of Pakistan.
NATSECJEFF on twitter is a must follow.
https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff
His podcast is also great.
NATSECJEFF on twitter is a must follow.
https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff
His podcast is also great.
I vouched you up if only because I'm a sucker for more feeds of interesting information; even if they are compromised. The twitter link is intriguing, if more than a little questionable.
For others: this poster has a rather China-friendly post history and negative overall karma for it.
Consider yourselves forewarned. ;)
For others: this poster has a rather China-friendly post history and negative overall karma for it.
Consider yourselves forewarned. ;)
[deleted]
> Farooqi’s ‘crime, for which he was arrested at his home on the evening of September 11, was to have tweeted criticism of the Pakistani government and military, particularly regarding the actions of a religious organization known for inciting violence against the minority Shia Muslim sect.
> Last month, the government made public a new expansion to PECA that would outlaw online criticism of the government and public office holders; allow the government to ban online platforms like Facebook, Twitter and YouTube; and require all platforms – including messaging apps like WhatsApp – to share users’ decrypted data with authorities without judicial oversight.
> The new regulations require large technology and social media companies to establish offices and data centers on Pakistani soil within 18 months, give the government the power to impose fines of up to $3.14m and allow authorities to block online platforms for violations of government censorship and data surveillance requests.
> “We tried to tell them that you cannot blanket ban things,” said a social media company representative with knowledge of one of the meetings, speaking on condition of anonymity. “You need to keep certain principles in mind. You can’t just ban everything that you don’t like.”
> The representative said the government ignored all of the social media company’s concerns, particularly those regarding requirements for large companies with more than half a million users, like Facebook, Twitter and others, to establish data servers on Pakistani soil.
> One of the core concerns of rights groups and technology companies has been around the requirement for all online platforms in Pakistan to provide decrypted data to law enforcement authorities without a warrant.
> The new rules require such companies to provide “any information or data or content or sub-content contained in any information system owned or managed or run by the [company] in decrypted, readable and comprehensible format or plain version”.
> The requirement to break encryption could also cripple local technology-driven businesses that require secure communications for financial transactions.
> “E-commerce and e-banking will all suffer, because it will make that whole system vulnerable,” says Aziz. “They want gateway level filters that do deep packet inspection.”
> The new regulations set a fine of up to $3.14m for companies that fail to comply with any part of the rules, including requirements to accede to government censorship requests within six hours in some cases.
> The main areas of concern for rights groups are the clauses of the regulations that deal with banning content based on the “the glory of Islam”, “the integrity, security or defense of Pakistan” or “public order, decency or morality”.
> Certain opposition politicians’ speeches are blocked from television news coverage, editors are routinely sent “advice” on how to cover events and coverage critical of the military is commonly muzzled, journalists have told Al Jazeera.
> One of the tweets for which Farooqi, the journalist, was arrested included a reference to an article in his newspaper that had been censored by the authorities. The tweet was accused of being “anti-state”.
> “The motive [behind my arrest] was clear: to end criticism, and the larger motive is to send a message of deterrence, to show […] that if I can be picked up, then anyone can be picked up.”
> Last month, the government made public a new expansion to PECA that would outlaw online criticism of the government and public office holders; allow the government to ban online platforms like Facebook, Twitter and YouTube; and require all platforms – including messaging apps like WhatsApp – to share users’ decrypted data with authorities without judicial oversight.
> The new regulations require large technology and social media companies to establish offices and data centers on Pakistani soil within 18 months, give the government the power to impose fines of up to $3.14m and allow authorities to block online platforms for violations of government censorship and data surveillance requests.
> “We tried to tell them that you cannot blanket ban things,” said a social media company representative with knowledge of one of the meetings, speaking on condition of anonymity. “You need to keep certain principles in mind. You can’t just ban everything that you don’t like.”
> The representative said the government ignored all of the social media company’s concerns, particularly those regarding requirements for large companies with more than half a million users, like Facebook, Twitter and others, to establish data servers on Pakistani soil.
> One of the core concerns of rights groups and technology companies has been around the requirement for all online platforms in Pakistan to provide decrypted data to law enforcement authorities without a warrant.
> The new rules require such companies to provide “any information or data or content or sub-content contained in any information system owned or managed or run by the [company] in decrypted, readable and comprehensible format or plain version”.
> The requirement to break encryption could also cripple local technology-driven businesses that require secure communications for financial transactions.
> “E-commerce and e-banking will all suffer, because it will make that whole system vulnerable,” says Aziz. “They want gateway level filters that do deep packet inspection.”
> The new regulations set a fine of up to $3.14m for companies that fail to comply with any part of the rules, including requirements to accede to government censorship requests within six hours in some cases.
> The main areas of concern for rights groups are the clauses of the regulations that deal with banning content based on the “the glory of Islam”, “the integrity, security or defense of Pakistan” or “public order, decency or morality”.
> Certain opposition politicians’ speeches are blocked from television news coverage, editors are routinely sent “advice” on how to cover events and coverage critical of the military is commonly muzzled, journalists have told Al Jazeera.
> One of the tweets for which Farooqi, the journalist, was arrested included a reference to an article in his newspaper that had been censored by the authorities. The tweet was accused of being “anti-state”.
> “The motive [behind my arrest] was clear: to end criticism, and the larger motive is to send a message of deterrence, to show […] that if I can be picked up, then anyone can be picked up.”
OK. So long. Hear from you at the next revolution on either side.
Freedom of speech but only if you say what we want you to say. Tyrants are all the same the world over.
selimthegrim(1)
Meanwhile, in Europe:
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252491755/EU-moves-close...
“EU moves closer to encryption ban after Austria, France attacks”
Edit: what I'd like is to raise the awareness that the Western countries also attempt to get there, not just Pakistan.
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252491755/EU-moves-close...
“EU moves closer to encryption ban after Austria, France attacks”
Edit: what I'd like is to raise the awareness that the Western countries also attempt to get there, not just Pakistan.
I'm pro banning SUV's:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55148518
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55148518
Perhaps you are. But why do you think that's relevant to this discussion?
> “The government of Pakistan will not tolerate three things in any form,” he told Al Jazeera. “Hate speech, number one. Number two is anti-state content, and number three is vulgarity.”
That is so amazingly blatant, they are not even trying to spin this.